21/05/2013 Newsnight Scotland

supporting those firms, then we may Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, yet

another supposingly authoritative report on independence, this time

the Scottish Government says Scotland is being held back by the

union. Opponents say they have come up with nothing new. We will ask

whether that is fair. Alex Salmond has made his further push for

independence and said Scotland could be successful if it goes its own

way. Today the paper was launched outlining the key economic strength.

Some thinking reconnecting with industry, with real people. Mr

Salmond said Scotland generated more tax per head than the kusmt for the

past -- UK for the past 30 years. This has been dismissed as flimsy.

Another day, another press launch in a factory. Today, the first minister

and deputy first minister visited this bus manufacturer, seen as a

Scottish success story, to spread the latest economic message about

independence There was the usual kind of PR event - Alex Salmond and

Nicola Sturgeon toured around the premises. As that was going on, the

journalists milled about in their high visibility get-up as they

awaited speeches. First the company's enthusiastic

Vice-President started with a few words of introduction. They have

been dedicated, all of their lives to repositioning Scotland on the

political landscape. We are on a journey to create new opportunities

and to globalise their business. Then the first minister took to the

let tern with the message that Scotland is doing all right, but

could do better. We have huge potential, but to realise that

potential we have to have more of the levers of economic power. We

have used the instruments of power in the economy we have at the

present moment to help this company develop. We have helped with the

apprenticeship fund. We have helped with tin knowation fund for new

products N the same way, with the limited powers we have, we will help

companies develop. The companies were based on the latest report,

outlining the nation's key economic strengths. Other than oil and

banking, which have been the focus of much of the debate, it says the

food and drink industry has seen exports. It points out creative

industries have a turnover of �4.8 billion. Life sciences employ more

than 30,000 people. Back at the bus factory a few members of the

workforce got to put questions to the Government. Scotland seem to

have an uncope door approach to companies like mer say dis and Volvo

-- Mercedes and Volvo, can't we do more to protect the companies? We

are not We are not in a world where we say we will only take buss from

our country. If we did that you would not sell to America, to Hong

Kong. We are in a world where you survive by the excellence of your

product, as this company is doing. would welcome your views in on where

the Government stands in supporting... We are very keen to

look at the targeted ways in which we can give you further assistance.

Manufacturing in general, it is a big priority area for the Scottish

economy. One of the accusations levelled at both sides of this

debate in the past has been a lack of information and in that respect,

referendum papers have sometimes been like buses - none for ages and

then two come along almost at once. Yesterday, Scottish Secretary

Michael Moore, launched a Treasury paper, not in a factory, warning

that an independent Scotland could be a scary prospect. This time, he

said, there could be significant difficulties providing protection

for savers and pensioners. Financial services sell 90% of their products

to the rest of the kusmt. UK. We don't want to put a border. We

can see with renewable industry and the oil and gas sector it is UK tax

arrangements which allow the record investments we enjoy. It would be

stupid to turn our back on it. you agree, an independent Scotland

runs the risk of cancelled or delayed services. Alex Salmond wants

to turn that on his head, with his call for people to get on board for

a journey to a more prosperous Scotland.

I am joined from Edinburgh by the SNP, Kenny Gibson wlorks is from the

finance committee, from the Scottish parliament. The and Ben Thomas, who

supports the Devo Plus campaign. And here by Ken McIntosh. All this

positivity is wonderful - we have this and this, it employs so many

people. A lot of people will look at the beginning of the document and

think, this all looks finery. Why on earth would you want to leave the UK

when things are going so well? can do better. We are in a country

with many unemployed. When we compare Scotland's position to, some

of the countries in Scandinavia, which are doing better than us, it

is clear we have not reached the full potential under the union.

Right, and the policies to make us like Scandinavia and make us more

equal appear to account to cutting taxes for big business. Well, I

think you are well aware that we are a progressive party and we do have

an entrepreneurial spirit in the SNP. We are in favour of social

justice and want to ensure that everybody in Scotland has a fair

shout. That is why, for example, we have the policies such as abolishing

tuition fees, for example. You don't need independence to do that.

clearly we need the economic levers to generate the wealth Scotland

needs. The only policy I could find in there was cutting taxes for big

business. Could you give me a single policy in that document which would

do anything to reduce inequality? An actual policy? What you are looking

to do with this document is to look at the finances of the, of an

independent Scotland, it is not a manifesto for Scotland post 2016.

What you are doing is... I will not tie you to the document. Can you

give me any policy the SNP has which would reduce inequality in Scotland?

Well, to reduce inequality we want to tackle poverty. Give me one

policy that you could not implement now, that you would under

independence, that you have as an SNP policy that would do anything?

For example, the most recent has been a bedroom tax. We think that is

something we would abolish with independence. Anything which has to

do with making pensions better, assisting people on welfare,

improving support for our younger people, better childcare provisions,

things like child benefit, all these things are controlled by

Westminster, as you know. We will give you a chance to think about it.

I think you are being unfair. In terms of the "yes" vote, it is not

about the SNP trying to win an election, it is about trying to sell

an idea on a vision of Scotland. We are not setting up a manifesto for

an election. When you fight an election you say... We are setting

out what our vision of an independent Scotland could be.

take offence. I was only asking you to come up with some policies. They

do raise some serious issues, like, for example, the dominance of

London, which is becoming somewhat bizarrely more extreme as a result

of the financial crash, rather than less extreme, when you look at

relative house prices. That is a fair issue to raise. The answer to

that is devolution. I think that... Hang on, the question to you would

be if the SNP struggle to come up with any policies that would sort

out, for example, make Scotland more equal and more Scandinavian, it is

reasonable for them to say, isn't it, what policies do you, as Labour,

have to stop this increasing divergence between London and the

rest of the kusmt? That is a problem that has beset our economy for some

time now. We have different stages to tackle. I don't know any attempt

by you to tackle it. Devolution was an attempt to devolve power away

from London. Devolution... I think it has worked in terms of

stimulating the Scottish economy. Over the period of 1999 to now, GDP

has risen faster in Scotland than across the rest of the UK. There are

lots of decisions that we could be taking, not just devolving power

away from London, but devolving power in Scotland. If there is an

argument about inequality across our country... You have any policies at

thaw would address the dominance of London and the brish economy. The

SNP have a bright, don't they? of the Labour Party's policies are

addressing social inequality. If there is regional inequality in

brin, most of these policies will address that. One policy for

example. We would not have increased, sorry, we would have

decreased the top -- would would not have decreased... A tortured

example. Ben Thomas, where do you stand? Do you sort of, a play on

both the houses. I know you think a lot of the stuff the SNP propose

could be done without independence, presumably you think that the

anti-independence parties are not coming one an alternative. All of

them have started to talk about having constitutions. Only the

Liberal Democrats have come up with any firm proposals wsy very similar

to what we have proposed for the past five years, which is that

Scotland should remain part of the UK, but have greater devolved tax

powers to match their spending powers. By and large, you don't

think the unionist parties are coming up with enough? I don't think

they have come up with a clear enough solution. I don't think they

have got together to say, this is what we would propose under a "no"

vote, so people have the confidence to know that there is something

worth... You think it is reasonable for people to ask for that? I do. If

you vote no, you want to know what the structure is that you are voting

no for. What we proposed to them is in voting no, you should know what

that looks like. We would propose that should be much greater tax

powers to match the revenue powers. If you want to change Scotland, and

all parts of the UK, you have to stop the over centralisation by

Westminster, where over 90% of our taxes are raised by Westminster and

passed down to local Government and devolved Government in the form of

budgets and budgets do not incense tiez people to do the sensible

thing. Your argument that most of what they have said today could be

done without independence - I am not sure that makes much sense either.

Oil fund, I am not sure how you would do that, if you don't have

control of a welfare policy. I am not sure what policies you

could have that would reduced inequality in Scotland unless you

have control over welfare policy. Isn't it blas say to say, oh, we can

are responsible for getting people back into work. We propose that as

being part in the UK. Defence is better being done in the United

Kingdom. Today's document said, Scotland could not reasonably be

expected to take on a share of the UK's liabilities if Westminster says

it is not due some of the assets. What does that mean? We have 8.4% of

the UK population and we are happy to take on that share of the

liabilities, but we want that share of the assets as well. This

suggestion has been that if the British Government does not agree to

a formal currency union with an independent Scotland that somehow or

other Scotland would not have to accept a share of British national

debt. That is correct. Why would we accept? The point of currency union

is not only to help Scotland, it is to help the UK but it lands of

payments. - - with its balance of payments. You do not believe it is

up to the British Government to decide whether it wants a currency

union with Scotland? Melvin King is on record as saying that the

currency is Scotland's as much as it is anyone else's - - Mervyn King.

This is shadowboxing. We will retain the pound. George Osborne thinks

it's an unlikely, but for you to threaten that if the British

Government decided not to have a formal currency union that you would

somehow refused to take on a share of the national debt, that would be

fatal to Scotland should become independent, would it not? You are

getting ahead of yourself. The fact that the UK Government has not ruled

out a currency union means they think it is in the interests. If

there was a yes vote we would go down that road. Your question is too

hypothetical. The threat, if it is that, is in your own documents.

have set out what the ultimate sanction would be, that everyone in

this argument feels that sterling will be the currency for an

independent Scotland. Do you accept that #.

Why is the British Government being like this? We are already in a

currency union. We have some control and democratic accountability over

that currency. Why give that up for no control? Most of these arguments

are arguments for devolution. not reasonable for the British

Government to say they would have a currency union of Scotland? The SNP

would like to have an argument with the Tory Government about currency.

Do you mean Labour would have a different approach? We asked at a

meeting about what the debate would be. - - we are speculating about.

The Labour first Minister of Wales has said he would be against it. In

the Labour Party there are people who would object to it. If their

posturing which could be resolved into something more sensible?

art of politics is to accentuate peoples differences. But you are not

a politician, so you do not have to say that. If we are going to be part

of a currency union that means that the centre will set interest rates,

money printing, regulation. If that is the case, why not be a full

member of the club rather than an associate member? If independence

has to come with monetary union and the scene head of state, why do we

not just keep the union that we have but negotiate proper

decentralisation? Presumably you would not be against that, Kenny

Gibson? I would not be against any of that, but we want control of

Scotland's full economy. We want control of Scotland's oil, gas,

whisky revenues. We want Scotland to be an equal nation in Europe. I

think that is perfectly reasonable. With those powers and resources we

can make Scotland a more prosperous country will stop you would accept

that you will have to convince people. I come back to the policies

you are going to put forward. People will have to be convinced. Whatever

the merits of the document you produced today - V give you one

example. - - let me give you one example. There are mentions of tax

incentives. You talk about man than terry representation for workers on

the boards of companies. - - mandatory.

We are not putting forward a manifesto. What we are trying to do

here is put forward a vision of what an independent Scotland can be. We

are in a Coalition in the yes campaign with the grains and

socialists and other groups who do not necessarily share SNP policy. -

- greens. People understand that, but what you can say is that this is

what our vision is at this is what we would do. A lot of your critics

from within the independence movement are saying we need detail

and radicalism. They are saying we need a campaign that says this is

what we think. If this was an SNP campaign it would be cleaner. - - it

would be cleaner. People now except Scotland as a viable economic

state. Only policy apart from cutting VAT was a cut in corporation

tax. Thank you all very much. A quick look at tomorrow's front

All the pictures on the front pages are on the after-effects of the

trade a macro in Oklahoma. - - attorneys a macro - - the tornado.

That is all we have time for. That is all we have time for.

Goodbye. A largely dry night tonight. A bit

of sunshine across Northern and Western areas. I risk of showers in

the afternoon. Dry and bright with sunny spells. Some sleet and snow

over higher ground. Much of central and Western England will be dry.

More clouds along Eastern counties. One or two showers. Cool in Eastern

areas. Warmer further West. Around the coast it will feel cooler.