20/05/2013 Newsnight Scotland

The Church of Scotland votes to allow gay men and women to become

serving ministers. Abide with us, says the revisionist wing of the

Kirk. Has a great destruction been staved off with a compromise?

As church and state for out of step and moral perspectives, how does

religion cope in a secular society? When I tread the verge of Jordan,

bid my anxious fears subside. So goes one of the great hymns of the

church. Fears are growing in the Kirk. Described as crossing the

Rubicon, and amendment will allow liberal parishes to opt out of the

Representatives of the Church of Scotland have been gathering in the

same way they have done since the Reformation in 1560. But knowing

they had the potential to make a decision which would have redefined

the Kirk. Today, we know that not only our own church, but other

denominations, are listening and watching. Indeed, many outside the

church and in different parts of the Reverend Lorna had only became

Moderator a feud is ago. She only gets 12 months in the job, but this

will be a year to remember. Today's session or all the traditional

hallmarks, but came at a time when the Kirk has been questioning what

it stands for. By seeking first to love one another, as Christ loves

us, we don't ignore our differences but we do commit ourselves to

resolving them. Without destroying one another and without destroying

the church that Christ died for. This dilemma goes back to 2009. It

created a division leading to two congregations and several ministers

leaving the church. Today, the General Assembly debated whether to

allow people in same-sex relationships to be ordained as

ministers. Am I accepted in this church or not? Because I am a gay

woman. It calls and undermines my very core, it undermines my place

with God. There is a level of incredulity in many parts of the

wider Christian church. This is as they wonder what we are

thinking of? Turning our backs on scripture and voting this way. After

changing the tradition that Vista nomination has had for many years

and throwing it out because of what society is telling us. Of course, we

don't follow society, but we have to engage with it and be in touch with

it. We have two appear less judgemental than we sometimes might

appear to those outside this whole. There is a strong tradition in the

church of recognising conscience. This recognises the conscience of

those who have concerns. Has everyone voted? The vote is close.

After a journey lasting for years, a decision was reached. I declare that

to serve as ministers, but only if individual congregations wish it to

happen. You are right in thinking the debate is not over. In order to

come to some compromise, those on the liberal side of the the two make

an accommodation for those who are regarded as the traditionalists. Or

those who are regarded as the traditionalists have to make

accommodation for those who will be regarded as the revisionists or

liberals. Following the risks of the last few years, unity was one of the

key messages. It is not over yet. The decision now need strapped into

church law and endorsed by the regional presbyteries, meaning it

will be two years before the new the BBC's religious affairs

correspondent who has been watching the events. How significant are

today's events? I think it would be difficult to exaggerate the

significance. The Kirk has been a Bastian of conservative social

teaching, of public morality and this is an about turn. It is dressed

up in language that suggest it is a compromise, that it is not the

traditional policy according to sexuality has not been changed. But

the significant thing is the principal. The principle has been

admitted, that active homosexuality is admissible and that it is OK for

ministers and further church as a whole. That is a huge Rubicon to

cross. As many of the people speaking show, people like the

moderator, also we heard from Fiona Cameron, and held, people are aware

of the eyes of the world being on the Church of Scotland. This is a

massive institution in Scotland, but it is also got influence across the

world. After careful look at the Bible, this has been taken. This has

not been reached casually. It was a big majority in favour. I think

that's the point is that other churches who are struggling with

this question, the Church of England is having a review, and societies

and churches beyond will take seriously this decision. There is

water to go under the bridge before it becomes law. But it is a Rubicon

that has been crossed, it is a big decision. You mention some of the

processes there. It is quite a tortuous process. It could be until

May 2015 when we get the first game ministers. Yes, because it was a

compromise decision. It was a new amendments. It has to be worked on

by lawyers to work it into at a coherent legal structure. It will

come back to the General Assembly next year and only then will it be

fixed to go out to the presbyteries around Scotland. The point here is

that there is almost a natural natural break on progress. I think

it is true to say that it is questionable how long presbyteries

would hold out an against the settled will. Also, it will be

possible to bring this issue back in another form. It could come back in

the form of employment law or something like that. Some sort of

issue where the rights and wrongs and defining the rights and wrongs

of homosexuality will want again addressed. I think this is something

that will return again and I think people will look back today and

think that it is the day that the church changed its mind and was

Professor David Fergusson, the Principal of New College and from

Dundee by John Haldane, Professor of Philosophy at Saint Andrew's

University. First of youth -- first of all to you, David Fergusson. Some

people are saying that this is a fudge drawn up on the back of an

envelope this afternoon. I don't think that is right. It was an

honest recognition that we are deeply divided on this matter. It

was an attempt to find another form of the so-called mixed economy

model, which will enable us to move forward in such a way as to

accommodate our disagreements and to live with diversity. Since I think

there is no likelihood of the Church of Scotland reaching a common mind

on the issue in the foreseeable future. We have been debating this

for over 20 years. The church has been consistently divided at every

time a vote has been taken. Do you see it as crossing the Rubicon?

some ways it is, we have taken a significant step forward to adopt a

mixed economy. To allow a greater diversity at local level so that

local congregations will be permitted to call a gay minister if

they so wish, thus opting out from the church's more traditional

default position on sexuality. You could argue that the Church of

Scotland has been a diverse and broad institution for about 300

years in terms of its worship, belief and practice. We are a broad

church and this is perhaps include the latest manifestation of our

breadth and diversity. We're also joined from Edinburgh by the

Reverend Jerry Middleton, a parish minister from Edinburgh and member

of the Crieff Fellowship - which partly represents the so-called

evangelical wing of the Church of Scotland. Thank you for joining me.

Are you happy to remain in the Church of Scotland, given what was

agreed at the General Assembly? Some say a compromise, a uniting

agreement. Maybe it is very divisive as well. You will appreciate I am

only a few hours after a long and demanding debate. I would want a lot

more time to reflect upon the real implications of that debate. I

certainly am troubled this evening by the decision that the General

Assembly has made. Would you even consider leaving the Church of

Scotland? I have indicated there will be no snap decision at all. The

final position that the Church of Scotland adopts, as your

correspondent has indicated, will not be fully realised and come to be

the official position of the church for two years anyway. A woman

moderator presided over the debate, the church is relaxed about

divorce, it doesn't really mention abortion. Why is the of issue

homosexuality such a sticking point? The report of the theological

commission makes very clear the reasons why that is an entirely

separate issue. The reasons are essentially twofold, to do with the

fact that that has to do with church order rather than a moral issue, and

the Scriptures alerting -- the Scriptures in regard to sexual

activity are consistent throughout there is no ambiguity through

Scripture. It is not the serenade the case in regards to the other

issue. Professor holding, what do you make of this debate? Essentially

it replicates one we are seeing across the western world in the

Western churches. I think it is different, it is seen as anchored

Scripture rather than other traditions. I don't think it is like

the secular debate. As Robert Pigott said, it is a very important moment

because the church has come to a few that what was hindered to -- is now

permissible. It is significant also, more generally put the Church

of Scotland. I think it is trying to find its position again, or trying

to examine its position immigration to the wider society. Although it is

not an established church, historically it has had a certain

sense of it in the conscience of the nation. It is understandable it

should be concerned about this. It is a difficult day and from what I

have seen, people have conducted themselves very well. It doesn't

really resolve the problem, it simply reveals the depth of it.

centuries, the Church and states have been in lockstep when it comes

to moral judgements. Now the state is breaking away in things like gay

marriage and issues like that. Has the church been left without its

moorings? I don't know. I think the state as we can see it is a very

different institution as it was in the past. I don't think anybody

thinks it is a moral authority. I think it is inclined to be a set of

legal institutions. We live in a very diverse society. Things are

changing in so many different directions. There is a tendency for

people, particularly intellectuals and people moved by ideas, to

somehow overemphasised the extent of which the trends in society are

shaped by ideas. I think often thinking about these issues is a

question of trying to understand what is happening in society more

generally. Often the causes of change are not intellectual, they

are social, they are economic, to do with migration. All sorts of

factors. I don't think we're in a very good position to understand

where Western society has got to or is likely to get to in thinking

about sexual questions. These are very deep matters. We have only had

a century, with the whole psychology of sex being developed and explore.

I think we are in transition culturally and within that, the

institutions are particularly challenged by these institutions

because they see themselves as anchored to a centuries-old

authorities and I think it is very difficult, and I can sympathise.

Professor David Fergusson, the Church of Scotland is feet offered,

it often moves with society. Is this an issue that is struggling with --

the Church of Scotland is fleet of foot. Can it come to an agreement?

There is no doubt we are struggling with it and we don't have anything

like unanimity on the matter. I think John Haldane is right in that

it is going to take a long time to think through these issues. It may

take another generation before we get beyond the current impasse. But

we have lived with either city on other issues. We agreed over 40

years ago to the ordination of women ministers and elders. There are many

sections of the church that don't still ordain women elders. We have

managed to live peaceably with that difference. I hope we can do the

same in this instance also. Jerry Middleton, when you think of secular

society and the Younger generation when it comes to issues such as

same-sex marriage, they are very at ease with it. How can the church

reconcile itself with secular society and still feel relevant when

you stand up on a Sunday morning, how can you still be relevant when

you feel that society has such a different view from you? In some

ways that is the very opportunity we have, the opportunity to point

people to the most relevant person that there is, namely Jesus. Our

call is to commend him and a call to an entirely different form of life,

a call to godliness. It is that call that is hugely attractive to many,

not just an older generation but a younger generation as well, you're

looking for clear route each in their lives, for clear direction --

who are looking for a clear route in their lives and making sense of

things. While we stand for our society and with our society, we are

also call to stand against our society. As well as engaging with

that culture and celebrating all that is good in that culture, also

to challenge the perspective of that culture. The only basis on which we

can do that is on the basis of the Scriptures that have been given to

us. That is in many ways the reason why lowest of all, I am troubled

deeply by today's decision -- most of all. With no axe to grind at all,

Robert Liggett pointed out it is very clear departure from the

position the church has hitherto adopted -- Robert Pigott. It has

previously been a recognition that the Scriptures clearly, consistently

say that sort of conduct is out of line with God's will and God's way

of doing things. The proposal that was accepted today runs counter to

that. John Haldane, on the final point, we have seen society moving

towards women -- equality for women, ethnic minorities, is this a natural

point in that debate that the Western world is reaching? This is

where it is important to draw a distinction that are in the secular

world through you and the religious worldview. -- a distinction between

the secular worldview. Christians see themselves as being in the world

but our challenged not to be of the world. I think there is a concern,

that if it loses a sense of its own moral resources. One thing I am

afraid that is characterised in the debate is a certain kind of

sentiment to listen -- sentimental me. A quick look at tomorrow's

newspapers. The front page of the here tomorrow. From all of us on

Newsnight Scotland, have a very good One or two showers in the short

term. A grey and damp start Tuesday, particularly through England and

Wales. Brightening skies and Southern as will turn a bit warmer

than Monday. Further north, temperatures will be down. Only

around 15 or 16 at test for Tuesday. A few showers, much of Scotland

stays dry. Some sunny spells in northern England but across the

Pennines, the Peak District and into the Midlands, a few sharper showers

develop. Quite cool down the eastern coast with more low cloud,

continuing through parts of East Anglia and the far south-east.

Further west we could see temperatures up to 20 degrees in

southern areas. Longer spells of sunshine developing. Cooler around

northern and western coasts because of the strengthening north-west

trees. That will bring changes through Tuesday and into Wednesday

-- north-west breeze. An increasing whisk -- risk of showers. Make the

most of it in those sunny moments. Whilst we will still seek showers