04/06/2013 Newsnight Scotland

years since she was crowned queen of the UK. We'll look at the Queen's

place in modern Scotland, and the constitutional debate. And, protests

against the closure of local courts - are they really Victorian

institutions unfit for the 21st century as the Justice secretary

says? Good evening. It is 60 years since

the Queen was crowned. It was a different era then. By the time the

next correlation there will no doubt been further change. The UK might be

less united by that stage, if there is a yes vote in the next year's

referendum. What role the Royals lay in an independent Scotland? -- what

role with the Royals played? Today the Queen joined 2000 guests at

Westminster Abbey, marking a key milestone in a long and eventful

reign. It is 60 years since her coronation.

She has seen much change in Britain but could one of the biggest still

lie ahead? Historically the Scottish National party has not always been

the monarchy's guest supporter, but people like Alex Almond will tell

you that times and policies change. Nevertheless, there remains to this

day a fairly visible Republican streak to the SNP. Like this crossed

fingers protest as she was sworn in as an SNP. But can these policies

complete? The SNP is a broad church with respect to the monarchy. It

reflects society. There are as many people who are Republicans and

monarchists as they are out in the streets and villages and towns of

our country. Back in 1977 the Queen raised a few eyebrows during ace

beach mocking her silver jubilee. I cannot forget I was, crowned Queen

of the United Kingdom, Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

legislative programme will continue to focus on building... A few weeks

ago she outlined the UK government's vision for the future

at the opening of Parliament. So will today's 60s anniversary service

bring renewed interest in the issue of the Queen and the Constitution?

The idea that territory by Nicky embody something that seems above

the activities of Mia Michaels. -- mere mortals. If we are debating the

future of the Constitution, of Scotland and the UK, it is

appropriate to have a debate about how we hold power and influence

democratically accountable, and it is an deniable that a head of state

exercises substantial amount of power will stop let's make that

someone that we choose rather than someone we are stuck with.

Church of Scotland got in on the debate a few weeks ago. The ancient

crowned of Scotland... Whatever the outcome of the forthcoming

referendum, it seems the appetite for retaining the Queen of Scots

remains strong, particularly among petitions.

Joining us now from Westminster is Mary McLeod, the Conservative MP for

Brentford & Isleworth and a former advisor to the Queen on

communications and strategic change. And with me here is Professor Murray

Pittock, a vice-principal of Glasgow University and the author of "The

Road to Independence? Scotland since the Sixties". Do you think the Queen

is for keeps in Scotland, whatever the outcome next year? I should

think so. I think the Queen, the whole royal family, have been very

well advised in recent years. They have shrewdly emphasised the

importance of Scotland and Scotland as a nation, albeit within the

United Kingdom. And they have done so in a way which has been very

positive. So I would have to say, and there is no evidence known to me

that the Queen isn't very popular in Scotland so I think that is about

right. Do you think the monarchy and the Royal family will be nervous

about the outcome excuse? I think the Queen will continue to do what

she has always done and today was a great example. As well as the

jubilee celebrations last year. The 60 years of service she has given

the country, when you look at the public reaction to that, I think it

is one of real love for the Queen and I think that is across the whole

of the United Kingdom. Especially in Scotland, where I think the Queen

and Prince Charles have a special link, whether it is what they do at

Holyrood or elsewhere around Scotland, and especially at our

moral, I know that the Queen and Prince Charles do spend so much time

there. They just love it. That is part of the love that they have with

Scotland, and the Princess Royal has it with Scottish rugby, they want to

be a real, integral part of Scotland. No matter what happens in

terms of political change around the country, they will remain that stead

fast service to the country, because they have the stability, the unity

that holds the country together and therefore, they will be looking with

interest at what happens on the political front but they will

continue to do what they do best. The Queen famously embraced

evolution, do you think she will also embrace independence and adapt

to it, should it happen? I think... I think the Queen is head of state

in about 16 countries throughout the Commonwealth. I think considering

the status the Royal family had 50 years ago, and now, it has shown

itself to be very adaptable. I suspect if there were to be a yes

vote next year that the Royal family would adapt again. It might become

quite high profile, was the idea of a social union of continuing British

union would be one they would be advised to home in on and they may

be able to deal with it very well. I think it is intriguing but they

would be a lot of continuity and only gradual change. How might the

Royal family adapt, adopting the church's idea of a separate

correlation for future monarchs? think a lot of these things are

things that governments discuss and they might put my -- her Majesty

about and then they might be able to decide on what is the right thing

for Scotland, whatever happens after the referendum. It is one of these

things where the Queen will absolutely do what is right for the

country and of that is a United Kingdom, because I believe we are

better together, if it is not, then the Queen will take on her role if

she continues as head of state, that would be something she will continue

to take seriously. But I do think it is something that is creating a bit

of instability around Scottish people at the moment, what is it

that the SNP are really saying? What about the other parties who are not

necessarily very pro-monarchy? I do believe that the Scottish people to

believe in the Queen and what she has done and then the buyer her for

the 60 years she has given the country. -- admire her. You are

saying that the role might change over time, in what way? It is

difficult to predict. It is an effort for a yes vote... But for

Republicans, the agenda might be unfinished dismiss. -- unfinished

dismiss. I haven't seen much evidence that there are many

Republicans in Scotland. It is not likely to happen that a Scottish

ceremonial event would be slightly intensified. I think there are a lot

of Scottish chivalric honours and recognitions, for example the award

at Holyrood house to Prince William of the night of the Thistle last

year, that was a sample of the kind of thing you might get after

independence in Scotland. For many people that kind of thing really

doesn't matter at all. It seems rather archaic, but symbolically it

is quite important. Quite a lot of the symbolism like that would

probably be taken out of the woodwork, there is quite a lot of

symbolic freight that the Royal family could draw on to emphasise. I

think that is what would happen. mentioned that the Queen has a great

love of Balmoral, Princess Anne is the page and of the Scottish Rugby

union, do you worry that the next generation of Wales perhaps don't

share that connection and enthusiasm and might have a bit of work to do

to ensure there is that continued Royal relationship with Scotland?

Not at all, whistle Prince William struggling... Studying in Scotland.

That was an example where he was a core part of Scotland. I will come

back to you before we finish! What is your view on that, is there a

long time and the number of social changes that have happened in that

60 year-reign are enormous. In a sense, we are probably looking in

future royal generations at a big shift. But it is difficult again to

know where that will go. One thing that is interesting is the evidence

that the junior royals don't quite like the kind of resolute Victorian

outdoors lifestyle of Balmoral, which was a symbolic royal residence

in the 19th century, now they don't like it as much. It is uncomfortable

having those outdoor picnics. don't think that is true, I think

the next generation, as I was saying before I started coughing, Prince

William, who studied at St Andrews, that was a strong link and they

spend a lot of time in Scotland and they're up at Balmoral in the summer

and doing outdoor things. It is part of the family atmosphere that is

created. I think the monarchy has always adapted over time and will

continue to adapt. It doesn't take something like a referendum or

independence to make that happen. It is something that the Queen is aware

of, where if she is head of state and head of nation, which is I the

voluntary work they do, there is so much that they're involved in that I

feel they understand what British people feel, what they want. And

they share that vision for building a great country, across the United

Kingdom and they're a part of it. Thank you both. Scotland's sheriff

courts see thousands of cases every year, but many of the buildings in

which they sit are old, with poor facilities - or so says the Justice

Secretary. He's backing plans for fewer courts in bigger centres. But

protesters want justice kept local. Haddington in East Lothian is one of

ten Sheriff Courts in Scotland said the set up was outdated.

were to sit down today and plan a justice system for Scotland, based

upon a network of High Courts and Sheriff Courts, it would be nothing

like the present pattern. The present pattern was... Is based on a

Victorian model and down through the years that has been recognised. When

I was a young counsellor, I appeared in Dunblane Sheriff Court and in

Nairn and Kinross Sheriff Court. All of these places have passed into

history, because it was recognised they were underperforming. But those

campaigning to save local courts say they make justice more visible and

more accessible. It is access to justice and local access. People who

need to use the courts are often on low income, or vulnerable people, it

is a rural community here and we have a situation where people won't

be able to afford to travel to court. The Justice Secretary said we

can't Su poort the existing -- support the existing network.

Although the court may be regarded as an important element in the

community, many similar and larger communities function without a local

court. The reality is that it is a better use of a shrinking Budget to

concentrate on a number of courts where modern facilities are

provided. The court service is to consider further centralisation in

the Border, Fife, Lancashire and the Highlands. But its Chief Executive

said there is a limit to consolidation. There is a core of

buildings that you will have to operate from. There is no question

about that. There is no further wave of court closures that are planned.

We will be looking in four areas about how we can improve in that

area. That may involve a building or buildings or a different way of

accessing justice. That is what we want to understand. So how many

corporates do we need -- courts do we need to run a justice system.

Let's ask the convenor of the Justice Committee, dris teen Graham.

-- Christine Graham. Do you have a particular number in mind? No

was interesting was Lord Gill's evidence. I appreciate the

campaigners, but what we had from Lord Gill was while he stated that

it started out being financially driven by 20% cut in the courts'

budget over four years, that is a substantial amount, once they had to

address this, lie looked at whether or not what was there was right for

2013 and onwards. As you have seen, a genior judge in -- senior judge,

his view was it was not appropriate. When we look at the delivery of

justice, the senior judge in Scotland said we are not doing it

the right way with all these courts. Do you accept that fewer courts is

inevitable? I have taken the view that I'm looking at the evidence

that has been put before us. There was a lot of good evidence about the

difficulties for people travelling, the people who would find extra

costs, the fact that there maybe local businesses in the area that

rely on the court business and so on. I think you have got to look at

all the evidence in the round. At the end of the day, we had to look

at what will benefit justice, delivery of justice and one of the

things that came out of the evidence was that if we go down the route of

fewer Sheriff Court, there will be opportunities, as I Unite it, for a

-- understand its, for a Sheriff to sit as a court in other areas, say

for children's hearings, referrals from children's panels and

vulnerable adults. Where would this take place if not in court? They

could take place in a village hall, or a solicitor's office, or at a

children's panel situation. They could take place in lots of places.

It would be up to this, this is in the payline and -- pipeline and Lord

Gill seemed open to tit. While we -- open to it. While we may have courts

rigidly sitting somewhere, that does not mean that is the only place a

court would sit as a court. Is that the sort of thing, property with

technology -- together with technology and other things that

would persuade an MSP like you to give up your local court. When we

were told by the Scottish court service they were going to have

details about video conferencing coming out in June, I asked for

those details to be before the committee before we have the debate.

So we will know there a is time table. The most important thing was

Lord Gill's evidence. If the senior judge in Scotland says this was the

pest consultation he has -- best consultation he has known, you have

to listen him. Christine Grahame, thank you. A quick look at

thank you. A quick look at tomorrow's front pages And there is

the First Minister visiting the pandas at Edinburgh zoo. And a

warning from the house building industry. And the Scotsman has a