17/06/2013 Newsnight Scotland

special debate. Tonight we're tackling the eternal conundrum -

but now it's a crucial element for both camps in the independence

Good evening. Women seem to be less engaged in the deliberations running

up to the vote - which after all is fifteen months away - but polling

has consistently shown that those who do express an opinion are less

likely to vote for independence than men. Tonight we have an audience

composed exclusively of women - some of whom are firmly in one camp or

the other, and the rest who have yet to make up their minds. They've all

submitted questions to our expert panel - also an all-female zone.

They are: Kainde Manji - Kainde is a researcher at Glasgow University and

campaigner on issues including the gender pay gap. She's a committed

unionist and member of the Better Together group. Next to her is the

actress Elaine C Smith - who's well known in her professional life and

increasingly for her stance as an advocate for independence. Amanda

Harvie is a businesswoman and former Chief Executive of the financial

services industry body Scottish Financial enterprise. She's a

champion of the pro-unionist cause. Before we open up the floor, let's

return to the idea of an independence "gender gap" and how

crucial a factor it is. Recent polls consistently show more men answer

Yes to the question - Should Scotland be an independent country?

- than women. So let's assess the increasing voting significance of,

I'd estimate, just over half of you watching this programme.

If only you what she started. The women's vote has been described as

the most formidable obstacle between the Yes campaign and the dream of an

independent Scotland, but is there such a thing? No, many women vote

much the same as each other in Britain but there are some

differences which can make a difference because we are talking

about 52% of the population so even small differences can have an

impact. Women say health and education is more important, men are

more likely to say economy and Europe. If those issues are

important for the election then gender can be important for the

election. Women are increasingly a political force. In UK general

elections last half-century the number of women voting has risen is

number of women voting has risen is federally. The situation in Scotland

is similar, in the 2003 elections, more But where that is huge

diversity among women, studies show that is the degree of female

collective and is a degree of female collective nurse in one area and

that is fear of the political unknown. It is a situation which

manifests in the closest thing Scotland has two compatible debate,

the campaign in Quebec to gain independence from Canada. In 1980

the result was an overwhelming north. In 1995, the no campaign won

by just over 1%. Women voters were pivotal. There are two main views,

one is that women are more likely to be in trading rules and can have

children, looking at older relatives, and that puts them in

contact with government services. So any problems with services, that can

affect them more than it would mail falters. Then there is the view that

women are overrepresented in groups which are not likely to support

constitutional change, it will with lower incomes and low educational

status. The gender gap is much less for middle-class men and women than

it is for working-class men and women. Working-class women aren't

more likely that it less likely to support change. Hope lies in the

fact that it may be early days in the deliberations of the female

psyche. I think one in's voting will be crucial. Women will probably make

their minds up about later on. Less of them are supporters of the SNP,

so they are among the group which will be more persuadable. It depends

how the campaign firms up. Persuading women that it is not such

a risk could really swing it. number of interesting points raised

their, but above all the importance of engaging with more than 50% of

the population. Well, let's go straight to the first question from

the audience. It comes from Amy Gardner from Strathaven. By does the

panel think fewer women should support independence than men? Let

us go to Jean first. It seems your message is not getting through at

this stage. I am not so sure that is true. Women are undecided and they

will take their time to listen to all the information and think about

the arguments. I would say to the majority of women who are thinking

about this very important decision, think about it on the basis of

choice. This is about the kind of Scotland we want and where we think

the best chances are achieving that country life. I do not think that

lies by continuing to be part of a union which is imposing sanctions

and difficulties and increased poverty on our children,

difficulties for women than men government of Scotland would do. I

think women want all the information they can get. They will engage. They

are engaging now and one of them will do so the closer we get to that

date in 2014. The polls show that among women who have made up their

mind, they are not supporting independence in huge numbers.

not sure about the huge numbers, to be feared. Some recent information

in the press today is that women and young people who were undecided,

more of them are moving towards independence. I was hoping you would

bring that up. This was an article, I don't know if you all saw it, that

said women and young people were big gaming to support independence. We

wanted details on the Paul from the yes for an independent campaign.

They could not tell us who carried it out and they expect us to swallow

it with no names and no information on its? Every side on this debate

will carry out private polling. Everyone does it. Tesco probably

does private polling and they will not release that information. It

forms how they construct their argument. I only know what I read in

the paper this morning as well. What I know from the meetings I've called

and the women I talk to, is that women are undecided, they are taking

their time and our right to do so. They need people like me to persuade

them or indeed Amanda from the other side to put her arguments. More of

them are doing that and moving to independence and aware a while ago.

I think it is fear to give the viewers are background to that

report. Amanda, could it just be that women take more time to make up

their minds? I think in this situation there are so many

fundamental questions that have to be asked and and sowed. At the

moment, we do not have all the cancers to give us comfort. -- asked

and answered. I personally have thought deeply about these matters

and I am convinced the direction is the wrong one. When I speak to

colleagues, they are looking not just the issues affecting Scotland,

but bear thinking about what they are going to do to grow their --

companies in the future and how they will succeed in markets around the

world because we live in a global economy which is highly

competitive. There are number of important questions which need to be

asked. The risks involved in taking this fundamental step and divorcing

ourselves from the rest of the UK, our biggest market, are fundamental.

The effect on our working lives, welfare support, the effect for

generations to come, it is a major issue and I am glad when taking time

to think and I am glad that the polls are showing that they are at

the moment. How will you win over a crucial number for the Yes campaign

of women voters? I think generally, in the walk of life iron and we

allowed in the East End of Glasgow, I see that women are interested. --

the walk of life I am in and weird I live. Women are more reticent and

they want to take more time about their decision. The work I have done

with zero tolerance regarding domestic violence, we have often

seen, even in the worst situation, women take a long time to leave and

move and decide to go on with a different part of their life. I

certainly in my own politics, it has taken me many years to get to this

position of yes. I have felt the anger and fear. To say that any of

us just woke up and said I will vote yes, it takes a long time to get

there and to get through the arguments. We do not have one

newspaper in Scotland supporting the Yes campaign. That tsunami of

negativity which has been thrown at us all for a long time to

frighteners makes women more hesitant. It is also interesting

that some of the research done into the banking crisis for instance, has

said that if women had been involved on 50% of the board us towards the

financial crash, had women been involved we would not have taken the

decision is those banks don't we would have been less likely to those

decisions. Generally women are risk averse, we are more risk averse than

men, we see the downside. I also think there is a reticence in women

at this point, the debate is Emile debate, it is about men in suits

arguing with each other. We live in a country were less than 20% of our

judges and lawyers are women. There has never been a women head of the

BBC. One woman editor in my lifetime in a newspaper in Scotland. We do

not see sales reflected back and if we do not, how can we get to a point

of feeling that we are independent? What about the Quebec experience

which was fascinating, where they found that women, especially

working-class women, had a relationship with the state and

welfare and where the most risk averse? I can understand that.

a businesswoman but I live in the East End of Glasgow which is very

working class. I can see that reticence and they talk to me about

it. They are the ones at the sharp end. They will be looking after

elderly parents, they are care workers with low PE. Those are the

women I am interested in. People like Amanda, wonderful women doing a

great job in Scotland, they have been successful. They have great

careers, they go out there and probably went to the best private

schools. Of course they will vote no. So independence is a class

issue? I think to an extent it does. It is a very interesting point.

it possible that, also referring to the Quebec question, there was a

certain amount of feeling within the campaign that they had the women's

vote in their pocket? They became complacent and nearly lost it. Is

there not a danger that could happen I have spoken to a large number of

women who are really engaging in our campaign at a grassroots level.

They are telling me in the conversations I have had, that

there is a real fear, there has been a consistent squeeze on living

standards. People are losing jobs. We are living in extremely tough

economic times. And I think there is an natural concern that we are

stepping into the unknown. I would, as someone who has campaigned

equally on the issue of violence against women, be slightly

concerned about the illusion that to draw towards making a decision

about constitutional future and making a comparison with an abusive

relish it, I think it is a slightly worrying thing to draw. -- an

abusive relationship. I think women have serious concerns. Legitimate

concerns. They do need to be met. But the step into the dark of

independence... Aren't you scaring them with saying step into the

dark? But we don't know. We don't know that the union was going to

happen. We know the cuts are going to get worse and the working-class

women apart of that are going to be affected more than anyone else in

this country by the cuts coming from Westminster. And they don't

have any guarantee... You do not have the majority on speaking to

working-class women. I have to -- broken -- spoken to very many women

who have suffered under the cuts. I have spoken to people who are

suffering after what this government is doing. What I say to

them is that the solution is not to vote Yes in the independence

referendum when you do not know. We do not know what the economic

circumstances in Scotland are going to be. What you should do is in the

2015 in the general election, though it for a change -- change

them. Be that across the UK. have to say, that is a good

argument until you get to the point of, where would change comes from

Ind that 2015 election? You have not been listening to what Ed Balls

has been saying, what Miliband has been saying. They are going to

continue what this current government is doing. So there is no

hope there. The hope is in making the decisions for ourselves about

our own families, own children, taking that into our own hands.

very important points are coming out of the discussion so far. The

first thing is we should not descend into party politics here.

The issue that we are all facing next September is whether we want

to break away from the United Kingdom or not. We cannot at this

stage know what party might be elected to Westminster or indeed

worse got them to vote independence, what Scotland party -- what party

would be would be voting in here. The other thing is that the idea

that there is a polarity, it does not matter what class you are from,

everyone has an interest in insuring Scotland prospers. We need

opportunity for everybody. I am interested in what will make

Scotland strong for the future. I would like to keep to the high

level issues because they unite all of us. Let's go to the lady at the

back. We hear a lot from the Better Together campaign about how

uncertain it is if we vote for independence, but nothing stays the

same. I am not hearing only certainty about if we do not vote

for it. I am not hearing any vision about what they have you is for

Scott and's place in the UK, I am only hearing, don't do that because

it is scary. Do you think that is valid? I think that your question

reflects what public debate is focused on at the moment. Because

there is such a deficit of answers to the questions that people want

answers to. My view is that this is not about for negative vision of

the future of being frightened about the future. My concern

personally is what is going to be best for Scotland and how it can

continue to thrive, and be the best, a successful country it can be. If

we all share an ambitious vision for Scotland's future, the question

is, how can we best to deliver that? What is the most solid,

stable platform that we can insure Scotland has to build on his

successes and prosper in the future? Better Together is focusing

on that very concerned. Do we want to pull the rug away and cut

ourselves off from our main domestic market, which is what

independence would mean? Blue wood to create a? Over Scotland's

competitiveness for international companies who are looking at

investing for the Long Tom? Du Li wants to -- for the long term? To

we wants to put the border in? lady in the couple. I am going to

come back to what Kainde Manji was saying about the fair and the dark

places we are going into. I think maybe there has been an exclusion

from politics, women especially have not felt that politics was a

part of their lives. It is time to bring people into the fold and do

away with that fear, instead of encouraging it. Let's do just that.

Let's get another question. It comes from Laura Burnett. I do not

yet feel I can make an informed decision on independence. When am I

going to get all the facts on things such as EU membership,

currency and defence? Before we are so that, and I know there is an

open invitation to debate cyclist, many people in our audiences apply

because they have affiliations to the different campaigns. The

difficulty is to reach people who are not politically committed. I

went to the streets of Glasgow to find them. I don't know about my

bus pass and things like that, the pensions. Is it a case of fear of

the unknown for you? Yes, I think so. Do you know anything about it?

No. Be you know when it is happening? The vote on Scotland's

future? Whether or not Scotland becomes an independent country?

So what should they be doing to captain your attention? Stop

playing politics, and tell the people I delete what it entails for

us. Definitely from us. What are the issues which will determine how

you vote? Financial issues, they are really big. I do not want to

end up with what happened in Ireland, I do not want us to have a

big slump. I feel we would probably be better off independently,

financially better off. I feel Britain needs to be joined together.

we are getting more and more individual, I think there are

strength in numbers. I don't think Scotland can stand up for itself on

its own. Do you think that as voters women are more cautious?

think so, my husband is a cautious motor but I think I'd look into

finer detail than he does. For I don't think I will be into it.

will not be voting next year? woman I think I do not know it

anything about it, I might go what my boyfriend or dad said. Really?!

In 21st century Scott and? I know, it is terrible. If someone was to

educate you about what the sides are offering, how best to good they

do it that would catch your attention? I want to know exactly

what is going to happen, what the changes going to be. There were

gasps in the studio over the views of that last contributor, but she

was being honest. Is that representative of the population as

a whole? Is the problem information, as Laura's question suggested?

Before I tickets to the panel, let's see what our audience here

thinks tonight. Is there enough specific information about the

consequences of independence for the alternatives? Who thinks there

is? Not many. Who think there is not? Pretty overwhelming. Is there

are feeling that this debate, although it is barely days, it

should move away from the constitutional minutiae of that we

had so far into the big issues that matter? I think the big issues are

hugely important but I think we also have to say, had you get your

information? How do get your information about politics? Where

do women get it? And if you have not won a newspaper in the country

supporting the yes campaign or even putting out the information that

the Yes campaign would like to get out there all the Scottish

government, I am not a member of the party, how you get thief

information to people? -- how do get the information to people? I

have daughters to say the same, I am not hearing it. You are talking

about it but no one else. I find that quite depressing, that is

where a lot of people off. We still live in a country where women

cannot go into certain golf clubs, you cannot play bowls until it is

between four and six on a Thursday, there is a self-policing and small

conservatism among its women as well. A woman who is an outspoken

and goes up there and says what she thinks within working-class

communities, can be censored in many ways. She is seen as being a

bit too lippy and having a bit too much to say for herself. That does

not exist in the same way amongst middle-class women. I think we

really have to think about if we want that information, of we have

to demand it from our broadcasters and newspapers. To let us know and

not only one side, it feels to me as if there has been, the

negativity that has come... If you don't know, for there is a No camp

and a Yes camp, they have made up their mind. If you're in the middle,

it feels like it is a square but thrown up. Work that out. It scares

and terrifies people. There is not a platform for the answers to

conceive. Five let me ask you about information from the Better

Together group, about the various forms of evolution that might

follow a no vote. -- forms of devolution. It is not just

broadcast media, people have been asking questions, and instead of

being presenting honest answers, they are being accused of

scaremongering. I think that does a huge disservice to the democratic

process which is supposed to be taking place. We are going to go to

the audience. I have moved from London to join the Independent's

campaign because I do know would be part of the state that goes to wars

in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would like to know what the Better

Together campaign says about foreign policy and what the yes

campaign is going to say about their vision about how to make

Scott and more progressive in the world so we live in a more -- how

to make Scotland more progressive so we live in a more peaceful world.

I think there is quite a straightforward question that the

parties have to address, or what difference will your preferred

constitutional option make for women? What you going to do about

equal pay, child care, gender based violence? We are starting to hear

that tonight but we are also hearing about the fact that women

it is the problem rather than making the debate about women.

Firstly, you suggest that we should be getting our information from the

news channels and newspapers. I think we should be getting

information from the party who is the proponent of the Independent's

campaign. This white paper is not supposed to be published until the

autumn. I think everybody has a right to be reticent until then. I

think secondly, Elaine, you focus a lot on inequalities between women,

we do not feel represented in politics and in the media. I do not

see how this will change in an independent Scotland, has the

campaign address that? Let's get some questions. Women are still

vastly under-represented in politics, even in Hollywood today,

so do you think independence could give more prominence to women?

20% of Scotland businesses are owned by women, with that figure

increase with independent or sticking to the status quo? Heel of

a business woman -- she wore a businesswoman, sticking with this

gate -- status quo, is it a there? My view is that potentially, it

could, could change, in the wrong direction. I think if we have

independence in Scotland, the competitiveness for Scotland will

be vastly reduced. I think potentially in the long term,

start-up spire of men and women, I do not think the constitutional

set-up makes a difference to the number of people involved -- women

involved in starting businesses. I have been a champion in business

for a long time and I believe in Scotland, we are behind the curve

and more people can get in -- more people can get involved. For I do

not think that is true, to be frank. I think independence can increase

the number of women who are involved in starting their own

businesses. I am getting to it. The reason is because we can choose

what we do with tax. We could for example used tax income to invest

more in start-up, we could use it to reduce VAT in certain areas, we

could use it to do away with air passenger duty. We would have the

choice about what we would do. The prices that we would have would be

about choices that fit the Scottish economy. What we have at the moment

is economic choices about the UK as a whole which do not fit in with

the Scottish economy and play most to the Scottish -- London and the

South and East. The other question was about equality. One of the

things that we will have if we have an independent Scotland is a

written constitution. And in that written constitution, we can

write... This is not a debate about party politics. This is our debate.

I am not a political party. This is our debate. We can write into that

constitution, lobby for it, argue for it to have constitutional right,

for example, to equal pay, a living wage. It is up to us. Let's go back

to the audience. I work for a business support organisation which

is funded by the European Regional Development Fund. I have Mashru

concerned about what support there would be for start-up businesses if

the funding were to disappear. There is little certainty about the

membership of the EU. Pan the Panel on so what the financial situation

would be for business support in Scotland for any other programmes

get help starting up but desperately unhappy to find there would be no

funding. I would do this more as the issue of self-determination, whether

or not funding is there, I feel that the Scottish people have the right

to determine what happens. At the moment we do not have a democracy.

On the issue of political representation, I do not think you

can write political representation into the Constitution you are

planning. We already have the equal pay act. We have had this for over

40 years and we have equality within the United Kingdom. And I'm

Pankhurst campaigned for votes for women many years ago. We know it

takes more than having things written on paper to achieve equality

and representation for women. There is only one party which has taken no

steps and that is the party I am proud to be a member of. I am not

ashamed to say I am a member of the Labour party. When the Scottish

Parliament was created, we need a real effort to ensure that the

representation of women was up there. We came really close, we had

the highest representation level of women across Europe. Sadly, that has

fallen back over the last few years. The party which is leading the

independence debate has a wall full record on women's issues. Alex

Salmond has only just realised when the poll numbers look Paul -- for

there was an issue of child care in this country. We're talking about

the real issues that affect women in this country. Let us get a response

from Elaine. I do not think we should get into that tribal staff.

Women get tired of it. When you get to, I am just going to see what my

party does, we can all trade those insults and that is what turns many

people away from politics. On the Europe PE and buying as well, -- on

the European thing, there is complication but that is even more

uncertainty in the next few years, we will be out of Europe anyway

because the south-east of England will vote that anyway. A point of

clarification, economic development policy is currently devolved to

Scotland. We can decide how strategies and policies are devolved

to support business start-ups. The key issue is the funding pot which

will be available in the future. the audience again, our next

question. We will bring in some questions about finance. Alana

Cochrane. As a working mum of two young children, can the panel tell

me what would happen to tax credits, help with childcare costs and other

important benefits in an independent Scotland? Claire Heuchan.

Supporters of independence talk about a fairer Scotland. But they

seem to think this can only be achieved by a large state. What can

they offer people who don't want a tax and spend Scotland?

I think it is fair to say that the yes Scotland vision seems to be for

a large public sector and generous welfare benefits, who will pay for

it? I'm not sure I do agree with that. The first decision we make is

whether or not we want to have independence. If we choose that, we

will then choose the kind of government we want. A lot of the

issues people are talking about will be down to that second choice

about, do you vote for which party and their manifesto. The Scotland

campaign is pointing out that the current situation that working

mothers, mothers with children, people with disabilities, are

currently facing, the bedroom tax, we will have 50,000 more children in

Scotland and poverty by 2020, it is those choices this current

government are making but they do not have to be like that in

Scotland. We are the eighth wealthiest country in the world,

Scotland is, but we are part of the UK which is the fourth most unequal

country in the world. It is not about if we can afford this but

about what choices we make about how we use our income and how we support

our citizens and how we support economic prosperity and growth.

Those choices may come to others if we fought for independence. If you

advocate the status quo does that mean you're happy with the situation

as intense, with the city at the moment and some of the benefit

cuts? No, I am not happy with the situation at the moment. I am fully

in favour of having a large state that provides for its citizens. I do

not think having independence is the only way to achieve that. The people

who are suffering in Scotland as a result of the benefit changes and

the welfare cuts are experiencing the same challenges of people living

just across the border or further says. I would like to see a Federer

United Kingdom, are more equal United Kingdom. I United Kingdom

where we share the risk and provide for the most honourable people in

society. I believe we should do that for the entire country. I think it

would be terrible for the North of England is to be abandoned by

Scotland's when it is that the most vulnerable stage of these welfare

reforms. I think it would be a real tragedy. I listened sympathetically

to these points. I would love to believe in UK and Westminster

Government which would fairly represent the population of the

country what it does not. The heading towards hung parliament

after Hong parliament. Wearing coalition in Westminster and the

heat it. We do coalition well in Scotland. Why would we not want to

jettison Westminster who are against electoral reform and cannot work

together in a cross-party we? moment, as you say, people being

affected by the welfare reform implementations, is going

independent not a chance to undo some of this decision and move

forward to be the Scottish culture we are where we were after our own?

The young lady in the second row. You say that if we have a

constitution, we can make the decisions about Scotland, but who is

going to write that constitution? The people who are in power now

should make those negotiations before we decide who we have in

power. How will the influence that? The SNP and the Yes campaign is not

just about the SNP. Many other parties are involved. People like

myself and Elaine are not in parties. They will not write the

constitution and make the decisions on policies unless they win the

election in 2016. What they will do between 2014 and 2016 is negotiate

with the UK Government to get those powers back on tax and benefits and

on a range of other issues. We will be negotiating on our behalf but

they will not be making decisions about the kind of policies we will

have. The written constitution, my personal view is that we should

start writing it. We should start lobbying for it. As women, we have

lots of views and opinions. Why don't we start doing that now and

see to the parties, that is the constitution we want. We're hearing

this evening about a number of aspirations in the audience and

frustration about current policy be it UK policy or Scottish policy will

stop we had a question about the size of the public sector in

Scotland. The fundamental thing is to move Scotland forward in an

aspirational methods, you need money, you need infrastructure and

funding. You have to decide how budgets will be spent and how they

will be prioritised, tough choices have to be made. If we do not have a

solid budget and solid infrastructure behind us in

Scotland, if we cannot afford to look after our sick and ageing

population, none of these things can be realised. I support the aims of

Better Together. I do not speak for then nor a political party. I

operate for Scotland around the world. I have champions Scotland for

25 years. I want Scotland to succeed. We need a strong

foundation. It is lunacy to cut ourselves off and build for the

future. We will not have the funding, investment will go. I was

involved with the highly prestigious financial institution foreign number

of viewers. It was my job to ask people to give us their money to

invest on their behalf. We were told from day one of our training, on

pain of instant dismissal, you can never project a potential return,

you can only talk about past performance. I would suggest to you

that it would be lovely if we could sit here and say, everybody's house

will be filled with gold and we will live in a land of milk and honey,

that would be great but we cannot say that. We can look at past

performance of what has been inflicted on Scotland by Westminster

and say, is this what we want in our children? I certainly do not want it

for my grandchildren. If you honestly think that Ed Balls, Ed

Miliband, Joanne laminate, honestly are going to have our road to

Damascus experience and time round, you are self delusional. Thank you

very much. We just have time for one more question. Isobel Campbell.

Would women benefit more from independence or staying with the

current arrangements. I think women would benefit from seeing with the

current arrangements because we have the best of both worlds, we have a

strong Scottish Parliament in Holyrood and we had opportunity to

vote for a new government at Westminster in 2015. That is our

democracy. We have the best of both worlds. I would obviously as I have

stated, believe that women would have opportunities if we could write

our Constitution and decide on what the policies on Scotland would be.

believe in my heart and head that the opportunities for women would be

better. I have a lot of sympathy for what you have been saying, I come

from that persuasion as well from supporting labour for many years. I

do not think the people of Scotland believe it any more. The corrupt

institutions of the British date will not deliver to those who need

it the best. -- the British state. More jam in a couple of years is not

good enough any more. Amanda. Scotland is enough and classic

position. It is doing very well in many areas and has a tremendous

platform from which to build. That situation has been done as being

part of the United Kingdom. That will provide greater opportunity to

women. Amanda made my case there. The fact of why Scotland is doing

well and has a great platform to build on is because Scots have done

that. If we can do that as part of a union which does not affect us any

more, how much can we do if we have the power in our own hands? Sadly

we've run out of time. Thank you to our panel and our studio audience.