18/06/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Wormwood Scrubs would have stopped right to childcare and more flexible

working. A group of MSPs believes that is the key to tackling

inequality in the workplace. But what can we learn from the billions

appearance in Sweden? And as polling day edges closer, we

are in Aberdeen to speak to the candidates on the campaign trail as

local issues dominate the Donside by-election. Good evening. For

decades there have been attempts to reduce inequalities between the

sexes in the workplace. Now, Holyrood's equal opportunities

committee wants families to have a statutory right to childcare for

children up to the age of 15. At that raises the question how would

it be paid for? The move would bring us more in line with countries like

Sweden, often held up as an example of generous childcare provision. Can

their experience provide any answers? Hello. How are you?As a

self-employed mother of three, this woman has her work cut out. Juggling

work and children can be a constant pressure, but she is determined to

make it work. It was a baptism of fire. The first year was hard

because not only did we have the pressure of juggling three

children, we had the pressure of is this business going to work, are we

going to earn enough money, is it going to be enough to sustain us

both? The worry put the burden on us and definitely distracted us from

organising ourselves. Before starting her company, she worked in

the charity sector. She said having an employer wasn't always easy.

ask you about your personal life and your social situation and you would

say I am recently married, I've got two children. There would be a sense

that perhaps they would see you as a high-risk member of staff. There was

a time when things seemed much worse. Back in the late 1960s,

female workers at this plant, fed up with sexual discrimination, walked

out in protest demanding equality with their male colleagues. This led

to the equal pay act in 1970. Questions are being asked about how

much has changed in the intervening years. The Scottish Parliament? The

Scottish Parliament's equal opportunities committee has today

published its findings. It said the evidence given to its enquiry by

female witnesses was depressingly problems like lack of flexible

working among employers are leading to what are called occupational

segregation when it comes to women in the workplace. The Scottish

government says it has been well aware of these problems for a while

and says it is taking action to do something about it. We recognise

that we need to do what we can to support families across the

country. We also recognise that childcare is don't just stop at the

age of five either. The first step has been to make sure that three and

four-year-old provision is delivered in a flexible way and meets the

requirements of three and four-year-olds. That may be the case

but the mums at this Edinburgh nursery say it could be done better.

I wouldn't say just more childcare without a caveat on that seeing more

childcare that is good for the children rather than a place to park

your children after school or when you're at work. When I had two

children in nursery childcare, I just about broke even. My salary is

OK but I don't work as a lawyer or doctor. I think if I didn't have a

place that I could know, peace of mind, that the children were happy

and enjoying themselves and being part of something that help them

develop, I would probably have stopped work. It's probably that you

get a bit more financial help for having children. In the beginning

for the little ones, but also for the older ones. My pick -- my wages

are paying for something more than childcare. Maybe other nurseries are

supported as well in offering care for school drop-offs, after-school

care, and nice environment that they feel happy and provides care, more

than just a couple of years. Holyrood's equal opportunities

committee says it wants the government to set out how it will

deliver a re-dash-mac a legal right for childcare up to the age of 15.

It could also be very expensive so is it worth it? Sweden has a growing

reputation for its generous cap -- childcare facilities. It is

regularly ranked as one of the best places to raise a family. The state

spends the equivalent of �5 billion a year on preschool services. That's

more than its defence budget. Back in Scotland's life for families

continues as normal. Will this mean and move towards Scandinavian

models? With me is Angela O'Hagan from the

Scottish women's budget group and in our Edinburgh studio is Dr Ingela

Naumann, a lecturer in social policy at Edinburgh University. Angela

O'Hagan, is this a serious problem? This question of childcare

preventing going out to work? Absolutely. The evidence at the

communes -- committee demonstrated from a range of witnesses the kinds

of problems that women and some men experience in terms of women's

coming back into the labour market, having the level of skill and

qualification with which they left. But if you are someone who has got a

young child, you're a woman and you won't go out to work, what's

childcare support can you expect from the state? There is the nursery

provision which exists to local authorities but as we know there are

both insufficient space is... You're not guaranteed a place, so provision

is across Scotland. It's not fair to say there is insufficient places to

meet the political commitments and the targets but it is patchy. What

we also know is the cost of childcare in the UK and in Scotland

is extremely high and rising. even if you've got a place through a

local authority you still have to pay for it? It's a small number of

hours that you're covered for so if women are trying to paid work

outside the home in a sustainable ongoing way, nursery provision,

local authority nursery provision isn't going to meet that need to be

able to work. It certainly doesn't meet shift pattern and the nine to

five. Women have to rely on other family members, other forms of child

care, whether it's childminding or private nurseries. What the

committee was clear run in its evidence was the range of provision

across Scotland, there is even more of a patchwork. You would back this

idea that there to be a guarantee, not just for younger children,

because they have done something in the three to four, but right up to

15? Today's report opens up the debate in two important ways. One is

around statutory right and provision and the others a very clear message

that quality, affordable childcare is about economic development. There

is an economic imperative to bring women into the workforce. That is an

important point. The argument is this should be seen as a matter of

building economic infrastructure, not just a form of social welfare.

We are generally told that we ought to be more like Sweden in these

matters. This is one area where Sweden excels. What happens there?

It is indeed. I would also like to emphasise that some of the points

that have been taken by the report to mirror some of the conceptions of

the Swedish childcare system. One of them is that childcare is not seen

as a cost but as an investment. It is an investment in society, an

investment in the children because childcare is not seen as childcare

but also as early years provision, as preschool provision. It's seen as

an investment in parents and their human capital. They can go to work.

It is seen as an investment in the economy. The Swedish economy is

doing quite well, so it is seen as a social investment in the sense that

children can go to universal and comprehensive, good quality

childcare facilities. There are parents can go to work. But explain

what happens, because unlike what Angela O'Hagan has described, in

Sweden the state will provide a lot of hours for a very low cost?

Absolutely, the Swedish system is fully integrated. It guarantees a

place for all children from age one school-age, a full-time place and

full year round place. It is publicly funded predominantly so the

state will take on over 90% of the childcare cost and put -- and

parental fees are very low, from the Scottish purse -- perspective. They

are 3% of the household income for the first time, but for many it is

lower. So for parents in Sweden, childcare costs are not so much the

issue. The debates are more about the quality, the type of childcare

benefit. Swedish parents to consider childcare to be there right, so once

they come from parental leave, maternity leave... Just make people

here even more envious, because that all comes on top of maternity

leave, and indeed paternity leave, which is much more generous and

funded by the state? Yes, it is important to see that childcare

element is one set of a broad set of policies. You will have to see

childcare in conjunction with parental leave, in Sweden for

example you have 16 months of parental leave that can be shared

between partners. This is important because in Scotland we only have two

weeks of paternity leave which is short in terms of gender equality

towards men. I'm sure we can do better. We have a fully integrated

system across the whole age range. There is a guarantee that the

parents can look after the children when they are very small, there is a

guarantee that there is a childcare place when they return to work and a

guarantee of after-school care when the children are in school. What I

take from it, Angela O'Hagan, is that there has been a decision going

back to the 60s, almost the whole of society decided this is an important

economic issue, it's not about welfare benefits, it's not about

being nice to women who want to go back to work. Do you think, here in

the UK or in Scotland, we are really prepared to shift perspectives and

that fundamental way? We have to be. We have to take the economic

challenges that are facing us. We have to be getting more women into

paid, sustainable jobs. We have to be supporting children in the way

described. We are talking about economic imperative, investment in

our human capital, children as our workers of the future. One of

the... The Minister for youth and Kleiman said the committee that it

was time for a shift in culture and aspiration and that is what we have

to push forward here. The problem is it costs a fortune. I don't think we

should start from the premise that it costs a fortune or that we can't

afford it. In the middle of the biggest financial crisis since the

1970s, it is a relevant consideration. There is an

alternative starting point which is can we afford not to? Investment in

childcare in Sweden means greater participation in the labour market.

If women are paying tax, spending money in their families, in the

local economy, we cannot afford not to. We are keeping women

particularly out of the labour market. Sweden is spending more on

this than on defence? It's very expensive, isn't it? It is

expensive, but it is not so much less expensive than in the UK. The

UK is the third highest spender following Denmark and Sweden. It's a

question how we spend our money. government has suggested, and it has

met with a lot of hostility, that caters of young children should be

able to take care of a few more than they are allowed to at the moment.

That already happens in Sweden, doesn't it? It's difficult to

compare that, because in Sweden there are quite high standards on

the professionalisation of the care workforce. You have a different

situation there. I want to ask you about something is, the debate here

in Scotland tends to be about we need more money to be paid out to

people who need to do certain things. If you were women who took

advantage of this Swedish system, you would be expected to go out to

work after you receive those benefits? There's a certain contract

in the Swedish welfare state, that there is generous support for people

jeering periods where they cannot work because of childcare. But that

they return something to society through their work when they are

finished. Every adult in the Swedish system is expected to work. Would a

woman be disapproved of by society should she decide to the estate home

mother? Absolutely.Presumably, things like unemployment and welfare

benefits, you get them when you need them but there would be very little

tolerance of people living on benefits for a long time. The system

is fairly strict there. If you are on benefits you are expected to find

work as fast as possible. It is seen as a transition phase. I want to get

Angela, do you think, it is a very different system there. Will people

by that aspect over their court -- over here? The idea that you

couldn't choose to be a stay at home mum. We have to value children, we

have to value caring for children, whether we do that through paid on

deployment in the childcare sector or by staying at home. The report

from the committee is very clear. The Scottish government are clear

about valuing childcare. Thank you Just one full day of campaigning

left in the Aberdeen Donside by- election, it has been a lively

campaign. The people of Aberdeen like their

cars, luxury brands and private number plates serve as prosperity

signifiers. But that means wherever there are cars, there is traffic,

so frustration is never far away. Right at the heart of the Donside

constituency is a monument to that constituency. The Hannigan

roundabout is a notorious bottleneck for people travelling

out of the city. It has been the same fee years, traffic backed up

in all directions, people going nowhere quickly. For the last few

weeks, the roundabout once crowned Britain's worst has been in

familiar territory, at the heart of the political scrap. With the by-

election in full swing, Donside Motors have traffic was at the

forefront of their -- traffic was at the forefront of their minds.

The priority is getting Aberdeen right. The roundabout, the

crossings, the new peripheral routes, it has all been going for

years and years. Now it needs to be happening. Someone is to get the

pavements and roads sort it, then it will be likes for the disabled.

It must be hard for them. amounts of money that there isn't a

city, we do not seem to see any development, it is not visible,

anyway. Score there are another issue. This is one of two in the

constituency threatened with closure -- schools are another

issue. Campaigners say the by- election has given them a platform

to make a case. The normally a by- election is not exciting but it is

about local issues and it is raising the profile of the school,

and the school closure which we think is unfair.

Brian Adam, Scottish National Party, 40,790 votes. The trigger for the

by-election was the death of Brian Adam. Two years ago a popular and

well respected figure, he won the seat for the SNP with a majority of

more than 7000. Tasked with defending that victory is Mark

McDonald, a man who gave up a seat bidding to preserve Alex Salmond's

majority in the Scottish parliament. We have new NHS dental facilities

in the facility can NHS dental waiting lists are down. We have had

four new schools delivered by the SNP, we are out to tender in the

contracts for the Aberdeen bypass, and once that is delivered we will

fix the roundabout. We are committing �1 billion of investment

to Aberdeen to improve the situation for people in Donside.

This by-election has an interesting dynamic in that all of the major

parties are in power to some degree and have a record to defend. For

the SNP, that means coming to an area like this, one of the city's

most deprived, and countering their opponents' claims that their

administration is a short changing Aberdeen. That is the message from

Willie Young, the Labour candidate whose role as Aberdeen council's

finance convenor has been under close scrutiny. I am an outspoken

person in opposition, and I think I have been able to say what is right

for the people of Aberdeen. If you look at the negativity of the

budget cuts from the SNP, you are not finding that from us. We bought

a balanced budget to the council. People are warming to me, shaking

my hands and saying hello. I think we are doing the right thing.

council administration is a coalition between Labour and

Conservatives. Ross Thomson is another putting forward his council

could pensions -- credentials to send him to Holyrood. Local issues

are good, so this is why people want people to be sent to Holyrood

to sign up for -- to stand up for them. I have a track record, of

that, as so I would never say it was a tour past -- too hot race, it

is unpredictable. There is a long tradition of Liberal Democrats

standing up for people of the north-east and Aberdeen. Voters

recognise that, they were unhappy with us two years ago but they are

coming back and telling us that they are not happy with the SNP or

Labour because they have let them down. And from the Greens, their

own solutions to the transport problems. We want to concentrate on

public transport, we see that is the way forward. You cannot keep

building more and more roads and bridges, because you are increasing

more traffic and congestion then. This vote will be the first test of

the ballot box since the date for the referendum was announced. Those

who have followed every cough and spit of the campaign do not believe

independence has been a big factor. It has not had a big part to play.

Labour have been trying to wrap it up and make independence an issue

for the election but it has not worked, the SNP has been diligent

and keeping him out and looks in on local issues. A visit to the local

bookmakers offered a chance to read the runes. The odds have the SNP as

clear favourites in a contest which is not exactly get in the punters

flocking. But what matters is not how things stacked up at this

counter, it is have a votes stack up when the polls close on Thursday.

Full more information on the Aberdeen Donside by-election, visit