14/08/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight we'll have our second film from Northern Ireland looking at ow

the independence campaign here is feeding into political debate there.

And we take to the streets of Glasgow to find out what the

citizens of Britain's most vegan-friendly city make of some

meat-free food. Good evening. Despite the clear

differences in their politics, links between Scotland and Northern

Ireland remain strong, and many across the Irish Sea are looking in

with interest at our debate over independence. Last night we heard

the concerns of the unionists. Tonight, in the second of his two

reports form Derry Londonderry, Ian Hamilton has been talking to

nationalists. This week is a big week in Derry Londonderry, if you

are a fan of Irish treble music and culture. Because, 300,000 music fans

and 20,000 performers will descend upon the city in the largest

celebration of Irish music anywhere in the world. And this will be the

first time that the floor has come to Northern Ireland. In its 62-year

history. The fact it is coming here to this Catholic-dominated city is

very symbolic. In the last decade, this old world city has come a long

way, to such an extent that it is this year's UK City of Culture.

Buildings that have been bombed have been rebuilt and the waterfront has

been given a Continental fee the Peace Bridge spans the river

connecting both communities together. Depending on the answer in

next year's referendum on Scottish independence, throughout the UK

there's no doubt it could cause ripples. Here in Northern Ireland,

it could cause waves. This is the Irish language centre in Derry. The

man showing me around is the manager. He is also responsible for

running the Fleadh and he believes that Scottish independence could be

the catalyst for change, not only in Scotland but throughout the British

Isles. The majority of people in this town and this part of Ireland

probably wouldn't be sad to see the United Kingdom loosen its grip on

some of the regions. So I actually think that Scotland in many ways

could lead the way in terms of people developing a more regional

identity and regional self determination. I think that will

have an impact on the culture of this part of Ireland as well.

all the things that Scotland and Northern Ireland have in common, we

also have some major differences the, according to people here in

Northern Ireland. At least we are wanted, unlike them. One of the

differences between Scotland and Northern Ireland in the relationship

with London, if I can put it like that, nd in the relationship with

London, if I can put it like that, is this - that the entirety of the

British political class is broadly speaking in favour of retaining

Scotland. Within the union. I would say that the entirety of the British

political class couldn't care two balls of blue arrangement whether

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom or not, and they've

made it clear that if Scotland were to leave the union, I think the

British ruling class, as I would put it, would shrug their shoulders and

say, let Northern Ireland go. decades here sectarian factions have

been batten either to maintain or break up the union. So some

commentators have been saying it is a bit iron take the potential

break-up of the United Kingdom is coming from elsewhere. In the not

too distant past unionist politicians were saying that the

union has never been more secure. Now it is extraordinary that we have

perhaps the looming threat to the union itself, potentially a threat

to the union itself, coming from where in from this new eastern front

which has opened up in the most unlikely of coming from where in

from this new eastern front which has opened up in the most unlikely

of all place - in Scotland, where people in the unionist community

here would feel a kinship with people. Of the few Irish

nationalists I spoke to on my trip they found it extraordinary that

Scotland might achieve a referendum on independence and not one person

being killed in the process. It will be achieved hopefully by not

planting one bomb or a bullet. It shows the strength of politics and

democracy. If I believed in a united Ireland hate to be about much more

than waving a flag. We have to prove the case. That's what the debate in

Scotland's been about, economics the case. That's what the debate in

Scotland's been about, economics and social issues - all the

practicalities important for delivering an independence Scotland.

That's a lesson for us to learn. a great number of those who want a

united Ireland, they are enthusiastic about an independent

Scotland, because they believe it might help their cause. But the

statistics don't bear that out. According to the Northern Ireland

life and times survey, 73% of the entire electorate in Northern

Ireland wish to remain with the UK. 52% of Catholics also wish to remain

with the UK. And the figure for Protestants is 96%. Local opinion

polls and other evidence has shown that the Catholic community isn't as

strongly in favour of a united Ireland as it once was. Social

processes in Northern Ireland, most people don't talk about here. We

have a Catholic middle class which has grown, at the benefit of public

sector employment, so there is that argument about would you bite the

hand that feeds you? What does a potential independence Scotland mean

for Northern Ireland? Well, it doesn't necessarily a united

Ireland. Nor does it mean that they themselves would follow suit and

become an independent state. What they are all keen on is more power

for Stormont, particularly around corporation tax, so that they can

compete with their near neighbour to the south.

I'm joined now from Belfast by Peter Shirlow, who you saw in that film.

He's professor of conflict transformation at Queens University,

Belfast. And here in the studio is the journalist Peter Geoghegan, who

writes for publications both in the UK and Ireland. If you look across

the whole community in Northern Ireland, is it fair to say that this

whole debate here is causing a certain awkwardness? I think there's

an element for both nationalists and unionists in Northern Ireland that

the debate in Scotland does raise tensions and issues for both

communities. I think it is still quite early on in the process for

Northern Ireland to see what the debate in Scotland and on Scottish

independence really would mean for them. But binge it is causing more

problems possibly on the youngest side than the nationalist side, as I

think you saw from your view tonight. Peter Shirlow, one of your

themes which you referred to in the film is that there's particularly a

middle class on both the Catholic and the Protestant side in Ireland

which decreationly cease itself in religious terms. C and the

Protestant side in Ireland which decreationly cease itself in

religious terms. -- decreasingly sees itself in religious terms. As

devolution has been embedded more people in Scotland are voting for

the SNP and in Northern Ireland voting for Sinn Fein but that's

among a decline in Northern Ireland. People saying they aren't in favour

of a united Ireland. One thing that came out strongly in the recent

census was the growth of an identity which was Northern Irish. More than

a quarter of those said they were Northern Irish, and it has no real

political form. If it includes a significant number of middle class

Catholics, who when I met them at university would have been very

anti-British, would have spoken clearly about the oppression they

experience, the difficulties of politician, et cetera, but now feel

they are part of Northern Irish society. Because of our equality

legislation, there is a very different Northern Ireland to that

which we had in 1968. Is part of your point that this new social

formation, if you like, which straddles the divides, isn't

represented by the political parties in Northern Ireland which take the

old traditional forms? That's what important to read what might happen

if we had a border poll. I'm not saying the Catholic middle class

might stay... We lost you for a second. Sorry, the point I was

trying to make was that I'm not saying that the Catholic middle

class would necessarily vote in a border poll to stay in the United

Kingdom, but what they might do is they may not vote. One of the issues

here that is very strong is that sense of ambiguity now. The we've

got to understand that the conflicts that raised tensions here, but for

the middle classes those tensions have disappeared. We have more mixed

marriages here. Have you heard of mixed marriage? What identity do you

bring your children up in? These processes are fluid and will be

understood much more than they are. Okay. The figures, 52% of people who

identify themselves as Catholic or nationalist in Northern Ireland in

five of remaining with the UK. Do they surprise you? I think the

Northern Ireland life and times findings were quite surprising,

because in the last year we've seen Sinn Fein say they would like a

border poll, which hasn't been taken place since 1973. In 1973 it wasn't

really a real border poll. It is looking like it would be a huge

majority in favour of staying in the union. I think it is surprising but

parents again how much is a poll on Scottish independence relevant

before a vote on it? Sure, presumably there is an influence

here with the problems that Ireland has had? Without a doubt. With the

economic problems in the south of Ireland and the fact that we've seen

in the last five years in particular the north-south strand of the Good

Friday Agreement has weakened a there. Is no huge enthusiasm.

terms of thinking in different ways that we were just hearing, could

debate in Scotland and in the rest of the be helpful? Whether Scotland

becomes independent or if devolution is increased, could it have the kind

of effect of the European Union when it was being set up? Even without

Scotland actually being independent, the very fact we are having a

conversation along these lines creates a moment in Northern Ireland

for people to ask how Northern Ireland is known. The Good Friday

agreement is not really a final constitutional settlement. It is a

holding position. I know you are worried about the emerging middle

class across the sectarian divide. You are also worried about

formations on both sides at the other end of the social scale who

increasingly feel that they have been duped over the past 20 years.

Poverty is a factor. There is an unsteadiness. It is interesting beer

talking class. There are those who have been left behind and those who

have benefited from the peace process. Amongst that section of

society, you will feel stronger attitudes than in the coffee culture

members of society. There is a strong argument about the SNP being

a friend to small nations. The Republic of Ireland had to surrender

a great deal of its sovereignty when the Celtic Tiger collapsed. They had

to surrender to the IMF and had to come under greater control from the

European Union. At one point, Alex Salmond was praising the Celtic

Tiger. But in crisis they found it led to less sovereignty. I want to

pursue this point about the other end of the social scale. Is there a

particular problem, do you think, with disaffected loyalists? A

culture which feels that modern society has passed it by? That they

feel abandoned? I think it is similar to the white middle-class of

Britain. Republicans are triumphant and they are culturally and

politically in the ascent. Somehow, they have been manipulated by

unionism and left behind. That is the frustration. And within the

community, barriers are being broken down. Defined projects -- you find

projects and you find people working to find solutions. The media

coverage is that the wheel that squeaks the most gets the oil.

Briefly, how do you deal with that? Do you just hope that time and new

generations fuel that? Or do you have to intervene? Those are some

important points about the class differentiation. You cannot just

wait for tying. You do need some sort of action. Thank you both very

much. We'll have to leave that for the moment.

The Glaswegian diet is not famed for being rich in vegetables unless you

count chips. So there was some disbelief when Glasgow was named the

most vegan-friendly city in Britain by the animal rights charity PETA.

We decided to send Jullie Peacock onto the streets of the city with

some vegan treats to see if we could tempt some of its citizens away from

the meat pies. Glasgow has won many accolades, some

good and some not so good. City of culture, most violent place Europe

or Best city of the Empire. But best place to be a" you Mac what is so

great is that so many people are turning away from the cholesterol

filled sausage and bacon rolls and are trying the healthier the Deegan

-- trying the healthy food of being a vegan. This is one cafe in the

merchant city which offers exclusively vegan food. Vegan food

is healthy food. People think it is just vegetables and raw vegetables.

It is good to have a healthy and balanced diet, there is no reason

why vegan food can also be delicious and a bit of a treat. Are meat

eaters and vegetarians coming in to try your food as well as people who

are vegan? I would agree with that. There was an meat free Monday which

Paul McCartney was involved with. People started thinking about

varying their diet. I think people are getting the message that a

varied diet is a good thing. even among vegan food lovers, there

is some surprise at our new moniker. I am shocked, to be honest. Some

people find it difficult to find a restaurant that will have a varied

vegan menu. I don't like supporting places that serve animal products.

This is a typical West of Scotland feast. Deep fried vegetables, sweet

things. And none of it has any daily or meet. So how will the people of

sounds like good food to me. That is beautiful. Very good. Magic! That is

better than normal food. Do you know that there is no meat in that?

thought it was a normal hotdog. It is nice, but.... That tastes like a

kludgy dumpling. That tastes like a normal cake. There are is no dairy

product in that. I think I would eat that. I want steak! That is good,

but state and men's is nice. You have not changed my mind. Vegan food

has been a resounding success in Glasgow. Pollard might not replace

Lorne sausage in the Hearts and stomachs of people heal -- whilst it

might not replace Lorne sausage in the heart and stomach of people