Browse content similar to 03/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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awaiting the completion of continuing investigations and fresh | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
inquests. On Newsnight Scotland tonight. Is a | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
Scottish solution to the effects of the spare room subsidy within sight? | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
The Scottish Government says it has the money to negate the impact of | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
the so-called bedroom tax, but need Westminster to enable them to use | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
it? Scottish Labour say they've got a plan B if the UK government | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
doesn't play ball. And the Department of Work and Pensions say | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
last year two thirds of Scottish local authorities didn't even apply | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
for any money from the ?20 million UK Discretionary Housing fund. | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
Good evening. Is the end in sight for the one of the most contentious | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
areas of welfare reform enacted by coalition ministers at Westminster? | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
The Scottish Government says it's found an extra ?15 million to | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
mitigate the effects of the change dubbed the bedroom tax. The | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
announcement follows talks between SNP ministers and Labour MSPs at | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
Holyrood, discussions that have been going on this evening. Both sides | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
are hailing this as a victory but are they counting their chickens | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
before they've hatched. The Scottish Government says it needs to get | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
agreement from the Department for Work and Pensions to lift a cap on | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
the payments they can make to those affected by the ending of the spare | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
room subsidy. Huw Williams has been hearing from one benefit claimant. | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
This is what the so-called bedroom tax looks like. | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
This is what the so-called bedroom brother are losing the benefits | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
This is what the so-called bedroom but she says they need it. I have an | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
extra bedroom but my daughter there is an everyday to see that we are | :01:47. | :01:55. | |
all right. She wills they three or four nights a week because I do not | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
keep well myself. She helps me with my brother as well. We keep the | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
spare bedroom for my daughter but they are still charging me. The | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
Deputy first Minister was visiting a college today. We want to mitigate | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
the impact of the bedroom tax in school and the John Swinney has | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
thrown that money but the only legal route we have two making payments on | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
a regular basis to people affected is the discretionary housing | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
payments. Currently we are limited as to how much money we can make | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
available because we can only top of that fund by 150% of whatever the | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
DWP provides. I will be writing to them to ask them to lift the cup. | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
The Department for work and pensions say they have not yet responded but | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
they said this did not fit with the experience. They said the UK | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
government had set aside ?20 million this year to provide extra support | :03:03. | :03:13. | |
but only 11 councils applied. That leaves around ?15 million on | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
allocated. In reply, the body representing Scotland's councils | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
said those figures were out of date, and details did not emerge until | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
after Scottish government funding was announced, and they said it was | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
purely constructed and unclear, was announced, and they said it was | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
Labour says there is another way for the Scottish government | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
Labour says there is another way for could wipe out debt is built up by | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
tenants, which is what Renfrewshire Council are doing. We proactively | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
went about using the legislation to make sure we could reclassify | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
bedrooms, mostly through the need for medical equipment to be stored. | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
We reclassified to take over 300 people out of the bedroom tax. We | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
have identified ?5 million over five years to set up the council tenants | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
assistance fund, which again proactively looks at those people | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
that have either applied or failed to get discretionary housing | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
payments from the government, and we are using that fund to offset the | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
early years that are accruing. -- the arrears. That dries on the | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
council keeping the books balanced and even campaigners say this cannot | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
continue forever. It is not sustainable but for me if a problem | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
is so strong you have two act on what powers you have two sticks it. | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
That can happen just now and then we can worry about the sustainability | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
in the next budget. When you are talking about infecting disabled | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
people who have been in their homes for 20 years and cannot work and | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
cannot move, you do something in the emergency interim and fix the bigger | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
problem later on. I think on Wednesday the Scottish government | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
will announce it has effectively abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
cannot do that but I think it abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
say it has found ways to mitigate abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
the impact in school. This observer says that is | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
the impact in school. This observer by the SNP. The Scottish government | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
has argued that will not be legally possible to do that but there is | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
increasing evidence that they legally can do that. You have to to | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
look at whether it is realistic to imagine the UK government would, | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
looking for the Scottish government if it were two very publicly say we | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
are helping the victims. Back at Jane's house, she is hoping the deal | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
today is through. They have increased my antidepressants because | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
you are coping with the bedroom tax and trying to cope with the | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
handicapped brother at the same time. I do not know how many times I | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
have broken down and had to go to my doctor through it. MPs on the | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
Scottish affairs committee will hear evidence tomorrow on the impact of | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
the bedroom tax in Scotland. Joining us from Dundee is Professor | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
Paul Spicker, a welfare reform specialist from the Centre for | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
Public Policy and Management at Robert Gordons University. Good | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
evening. Thank you for joining us. Good evening. Tellers more about the | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
legal constraints on the Scottish government when it comes to these | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
discretionary housing payments. The Scotland act, the act which founded | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
the powers of the Parliament, reserves powers relating to social | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
security. Two benefits. Benefits are defined in a number of ways but they | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
are quite specific, that payments which are made for individuals, to | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
help them with their housing costs, are considered to be benefits and | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
therefore normally out with the powers of the Scottish Parliament. | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
What would be the reality is the Scottish Government ignored that? | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
They are talking about ?50 million, a militantly small sum of money in | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
the grand scheme of things. -- ?59. It is not so much about the money | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
but very much a question about whether the parliament could ever do | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
something which was beyond their powers. At every stage of the | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
process, there will be people who will be looking at the system, | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
seeing how it operates and saying old on a moment, I do not have the | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
power to do that. Being fearful of the consequences for themselves | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
personally if they go beyond their legal powers. Labour-saving other | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
mechanisms available. They point to the way that local authorities have | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
been writing off some debts. Is that an option available to the Scottish | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Government, to fund that particular activity? Would it, as ministers | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
say, also leave them falling foul of the fact that Social Security is | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
reserved for Westminster? There may be possibilities for a number of | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
different funding mechanisms. Labour has come up with one suggestion. The | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
suggestion of forgiving arrears does imply, though, both that the | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
landlords will feel more than a little insecure about it and very | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
often the tenants who are going through the process, who are racking | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
up arrears, will also feel scared. It is often the case with these sort | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
of things that the devil is in the detail. It is very difficult to know | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
how things are going to work in practice. What we have to look for | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
our mechanisms to make it possible. The main mechanism which is possible | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
is to fund landlords, social landlords, housing associations and | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
councils, perhaps, rather than the tenants directly. It is only | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
payments to the tenants that are restricted. It is talked about that | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
local authorities have to apply extra money in the Scottish | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
Government but mainly from Westminster as being a poor | :09:25. | :09:25. | |
situation. The Westminster as being a poor | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
unclaimed. Do you believe that politics are at play? I do not think | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
that is the main factor. Clearly local authorities look at what it is | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
there being asked to do, whether they are able to provide the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
information or whether they have the mechanisms to deal with that. It has | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
not proved to be a very good system. Professor, thank you very | :09:48. | :09:49. | |
much for that. With me here is the SNP MSP Jamie | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
Hepburn, a member of Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee. In | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
Edinburgh another member of that committee, Conservative MSP Alex | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
Johnstone and also Labour's Finance spokesman, Iain Gray. Good evening | :09:59. | :10:06. | |
to all of you. Iain Gray, you have been talking to John Swinney, has a | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
deal been reached? We are not at Wednesday yet but the talks have | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
been constructive. This is something we have been asking for for many | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
months. The commitment which was seen today to complete the package | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
of ?15 million, 20 million already, this 15 which seems to have been | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
announced through the means of the media, and the DWP DH money is | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
something we have been asking for for a long time. It is very welcome | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
indeed. We continue to talk with John Swinney about what we believe | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
is a way that this can be achieved and the impact of the bedroom tax | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
can be fully mitigated with or without agreement from the DWP. But | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
is it your understanding that the Scottish Government will only go | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
ahead with these plans if the DWP agreed to lift this cap, as Nicola | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
Sturgeon was suggesting? No. To me, this is perhaps a bit of a red | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
herring and really is the Scottish Government are going to ask for the | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
cap to be listed, I wish they had done at some time ago. We have | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
presented to the Scottish done at some time ago. We have | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
an alternative, not just for local Association in East Lothian, a | :11:19. | :11:28. | |
similar hardship fund is in place, which, as the professor explained, | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
is not making benefits payments but is writing off small amounts of | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
accrued debt. Those two schemes are already in place. They are already | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
working. One has been looked over by Audit Scotland on the other is being | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
considered by the Housing Association's lawyers. Whitney... We | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
should do it now. Let me put these points to Jamie porn. Talking of a | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
cap by the DWP and that having to be raised is a red herring. -- lets | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
talk to Jamie now. Anybody would accept that the much maligned | :12:06. | :12:15. | |
bedroom tax can be helped through discretionary payments of soccer is | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
presently a cap in place. Seems an arbitrary measure to stop the affair | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
from government ministers that they believe the Scottish Government has | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
the means to try to get rid of the bedroom tax and stop the Scottish | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Government has identified this is the most reasonable request. Is it | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
reasonable to look at these areas that Iain Gray suggested? Ian has | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
already had that discussion and dialogue is ongoing. People are | :12:42. | :12:43. | |
there, particularly those at the sharp end of the bedroom tax will be | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
looking for a politician to come together and find a solution. I | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
think it is pretty clear that discretionary housing payments are | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
the most obvious mechanism. I feel that we can continue to look for | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
some solution but I thought it was interesting what Paul was saying. I | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
think he was pretty clear and the welfare reform committee have had a | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
number of experts from the sector also accepting there are a number of | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
limitations on the Scottish Parliament's ability to act in terms | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
of the reservations set out in the Scotland act. Is this a good use of | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
?15 million, in your view? One could suggest that ?50 million might be | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
better spent on trying to encourage people to move out of under-occupied | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
properties into people who are overcrowded into these properties. I | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
think there is something going on here that we have to be careful of. | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
I do not think the discretionary housing fund is the best way for the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
Scottish Government to use this as they million pounds it has found. I | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
think there is a good case to be made for adopting the method that | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
was highlighted by yourself by what is going on in Renfrewshire. In | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
fact, what is going on in reverse today is exactly what Lord Freud | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
suggested to members of the welfare committee when he met over one year | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
ago. Do you accept... This is not a new idea. It can be made to work | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
effectively to stop the DEHP is not a perfect fit for what we want this | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
money to do. I would suggest that perhaps we won't to find an | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
alternative way for this money to go. Do you accept this benefit | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
changes causing hardship? Inevitably there will be winners and losers | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
when policy is designed to make better use of existing housing | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
stock. There is already over ?34 million available through the | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
discretionary housing fund to mitigate against those who have | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
problems with the change in the rules. So what I do say is that if | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
there is money available and it is undersubscribed in the current year | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
then perhaps simply bidding each other for the amount of money that | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
we want to see in the fund next year is not the most effective way to go. | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
That is an interesting point. When we have the money available from | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
Westminster and two thirds of the local authority in Scotland have not | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
applied for it, if this is causing so much hardship, why would local | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
authorities not ask for the cash? I understand that came late in the day | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
and there have been criticism of the operators and it came after the | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
Scottish Government had already made the maximum amount that local | :15:11. | :15:11. | |
governments the maximum amount that local | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
this is if we are talking about red herrings, I think this is a red | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
herring from the Department for Work and Pensions. We know that this is a | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
measure that has been put in place that is causing distress to people. | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
The Scottish Government has come up with a straightforward solution that | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
if the cap is listed, it will be compliant with law and I think we | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
should be getting on with that and it is incumbent on the DWP to | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
respond. What is your sense, Iain Gray, office this obscenity of all | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
the parties working together? You have been critical in the part of | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
John Swinney and saying that to some extent he has not been mitigating | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
the fool affects for political classical. -- of this talk of all | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
the parties working together. When the budget that we were discussing | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
was already introduced there was no additional funding. John has brought | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
in an additional ?20 million. He has now said that he has the final ?15 | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
million. I think Jimmy is right. The most important thing is that the | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
80,000 households affected, like Jean, the one you should your film, | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
I think their expectation is that we should reach a position where nobody | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
in Scotland has 2p the bedroom tax and certainly nobody has two days | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
eviction because of arrears. The important thing is that we reach a | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
position on Wednesday where irrespective of the answer of the | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
Scottish Government -- the answer the Scottish Government get from the | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
DWP that we put a system in that achieve that. I think we are very | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
close to that and it is definitely, to my mind, a price worth having. | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
How would you urge Lord Freud to respond to this letter from Nicola | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
Sturgeon? First of all, the decision that is involved here is well above | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
my pay grade. However, it is fair to say that there are alternative | :17:09. | :17:09. | |
methods. I think say that there are alternative | :17:10. | :17:11. | |
asking the Scottish say that there are alternative | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
is broaden its say that there are alternative | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
sure that it has an alternative route by which this money which it | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
has managed to find can be used by the purpose it has identified. You | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
would not urge Lord Freud to raise the cap? That is an option but it is | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
not the only option. The last thing I want to do is see the Scottish | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
Government blaming the UK Government for not making the decision it once | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
when the Scottish Government itself could find alternative to deal with | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
this issue. Are you convinced that the | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
alternative work, Jamie Hepburn? And if the DWP says no, should the | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
Government be looking at those? We need to be clear, the reservations | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
in the Scotland act is not just about direct payments in your social | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
Security payments, it is also about payments in respect of what would | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
beetles and security payments. So what might be legal for local | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
government might not actually be legal for the Scottish Parliament. | :18:06. | :18:07. | |
Thank you for joining us this evening. | :18:08. | :18:09. | |
Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. | :18:10. | :18:19. | |
They say that the Institute of chartered accountants want more | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
information from both governments. The financial Times says the cost of | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
a financial regulator in an independent Scotland is being | :18:26. | :18:26. | |
questioned also. That's all from me. More news is | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
always on BBC Scotland's website and Good Morning Scotland is on Radio | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
Scotland tomorrow morning at 6am. Good night. | :18:34. | :18:47. | |
After a spell of overnight rain, maybe some snow across the high | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
ground in the north. Most going to choose the north. Most go into | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
Tuesday on a dry and brighter note that there will be some heavy | :18:57. | :18:58. | |
thunder to the south and west. Some of you avoid them altogether and | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
there will probably more dry weather than met for many interesting. | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
Particularly in Northern Ireland, wind is not as strong. The few | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
showers are possible, especially to the | :19:10. | :19:10. |