03/02/2014 Newsnight Scotland

awaiting the completion of continuing investigations and fresh

inquests. On Newsnight Scotland tonight. Is a

Scottish solution to the effects of the spare room subsidy within sight?

The Scottish Government says it has the money to negate the impact of

the so-called bedroom tax, but need Westminster to enable them to use

it? Scottish Labour say they've got a plan B if the UK government

doesn't play ball. And the Department of Work and Pensions say

last year two thirds of Scottish local authorities didn't even apply

for any money from the ?20 million UK Discretionary Housing fund.

Good evening. Is the end in sight for the one of the most contentious

areas of welfare reform enacted by coalition ministers at Westminster?

The Scottish Government says it's found an extra ?15 million to

mitigate the effects of the change dubbed the bedroom tax. The

announcement follows talks between SNP ministers and Labour MSPs at

Holyrood, discussions that have been going on this evening. Both sides

are hailing this as a victory but are they counting their chickens

before they've hatched. The Scottish Government says it needs to get

agreement from the Department for Work and Pensions to lift a cap on

the payments they can make to those affected by the ending of the spare

room subsidy. Huw Williams has been hearing from one benefit claimant.

This is what the so-called bedroom tax looks like.

This is what the so-called bedroom brother are losing the benefits

This is what the so-called bedroom but she says they need it. I have an

extra bedroom but my daughter there is an everyday to see that we are

all right. She wills they three or four nights a week because I do not

keep well myself. She helps me with my brother as well. We keep the

spare bedroom for my daughter but they are still charging me. The

Deputy first Minister was visiting a college today. We want to mitigate

the impact of the bedroom tax in school and the John Swinney has

thrown that money but the only legal route we have two making payments on

a regular basis to people affected is the discretionary housing

payments. Currently we are limited as to how much money we can make

available because we can only top of that fund by 150% of whatever the

DWP provides. I will be writing to them to ask them to lift the cup.

The Department for work and pensions say they have not yet responded but

they said this did not fit with the experience. They said the UK

government had set aside ?20 million this year to provide extra support

but only 11 councils applied. That leaves around ?15 million on

allocated. In reply, the body representing Scotland's councils

said those figures were out of date, and details did not emerge until

after Scottish government funding was announced, and they said it was

purely constructed and unclear, was announced, and they said it was

Labour says there is another way for the Scottish government

Labour says there is another way for could wipe out debt is built up by

tenants, which is what Renfrewshire Council are doing. We proactively

went about using the legislation to make sure we could reclassify

bedrooms, mostly through the need for medical equipment to be stored.

We reclassified to take over 300 people out of the bedroom tax. We

have identified ?5 million over five years to set up the council tenants

assistance fund, which again proactively looks at those people

that have either applied or failed to get discretionary housing

payments from the government, and we are using that fund to offset the

early years that are accruing. -- the arrears. That dries on the

council keeping the books balanced and even campaigners say this cannot

continue forever. It is not sustainable but for me if a problem

is so strong you have two act on what powers you have two sticks it.

That can happen just now and then we can worry about the sustainability

in the next budget. When you are talking about infecting disabled

people who have been in their homes for 20 years and cannot work and

cannot move, you do something in the emergency interim and fix the bigger

problem later on. I think on Wednesday the Scottish government

will announce it has effectively abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid

cannot do that but I think it abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid

say it has found ways to mitigate abolish the bedroom tax. Legal aid

the impact in school. This observer says that is

the impact in school. This observer by the SNP. The Scottish government

has argued that will not be legally possible to do that but there is

increasing evidence that they legally can do that. You have to to

look at whether it is realistic to imagine the UK government would,

looking for the Scottish government if it were two very publicly say we

are helping the victims. Back at Jane's house, she is hoping the deal

today is through. They have increased my antidepressants because

you are coping with the bedroom tax and trying to cope with the

handicapped brother at the same time. I do not know how many times I

have broken down and had to go to my doctor through it. MPs on the

Scottish affairs committee will hear evidence tomorrow on the impact of

the bedroom tax in Scotland. Joining us from Dundee is Professor

Paul Spicker, a welfare reform specialist from the Centre for

Public Policy and Management at Robert Gordons University. Good

evening. Thank you for joining us. Good evening. Tellers more about the

legal constraints on the Scottish government when it comes to these

discretionary housing payments. The Scotland act, the act which founded

the powers of the Parliament, reserves powers relating to social

security. Two benefits. Benefits are defined in a number of ways but they

are quite specific, that payments which are made for individuals, to

help them with their housing costs, are considered to be benefits and

therefore normally out with the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

What would be the reality is the Scottish Government ignored that?

They are talking about ?50 million, a militantly small sum of money in

the grand scheme of things. -- ?59. It is not so much about the money

but very much a question about whether the parliament could ever do

something which was beyond their powers. At every stage of the

process, there will be people who will be looking at the system,

seeing how it operates and saying old on a moment, I do not have the

power to do that. Being fearful of the consequences for themselves

personally if they go beyond their legal powers. Labour-saving other

mechanisms available. They point to the way that local authorities have

been writing off some debts. Is that an option available to the Scottish

Government, to fund that particular activity? Would it, as ministers

say, also leave them falling foul of the fact that Social Security is

reserved for Westminster? There may be possibilities for a number of

different funding mechanisms. Labour has come up with one suggestion. The

suggestion of forgiving arrears does imply, though, both that the

landlords will feel more than a little insecure about it and very

often the tenants who are going through the process, who are racking

up arrears, will also feel scared. It is often the case with these sort

of things that the devil is in the detail. It is very difficult to know

how things are going to work in practice. What we have to look for

our mechanisms to make it possible. The main mechanism which is possible

is to fund landlords, social landlords, housing associations and

councils, perhaps, rather than the tenants directly. It is only

payments to the tenants that are restricted. It is talked about that

local authorities have to apply extra money in the Scottish

Government but mainly from Westminster as being a poor

situation. The Westminster as being a poor

unclaimed. Do you believe that politics are at play? I do not think

that is the main factor. Clearly local authorities look at what it is

there being asked to do, whether they are able to provide the

information or whether they have the mechanisms to deal with that. It has

not proved to be a very good system. Professor, thank you very

much for that. With me here is the SNP MSP Jamie

Hepburn, a member of Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee. In

Edinburgh another member of that committee, Conservative MSP Alex

Johnstone and also Labour's Finance spokesman, Iain Gray. Good evening

to all of you. Iain Gray, you have been talking to John Swinney, has a

deal been reached? We are not at Wednesday yet but the talks have

been constructive. This is something we have been asking for for many

months. The commitment which was seen today to complete the package

of ?15 million, 20 million already, this 15 which seems to have been

announced through the means of the media, and the DWP DH money is

something we have been asking for for a long time. It is very welcome

indeed. We continue to talk with John Swinney about what we believe

is a way that this can be achieved and the impact of the bedroom tax

can be fully mitigated with or without agreement from the DWP. But

is it your understanding that the Scottish Government will only go

ahead with these plans if the DWP agreed to lift this cap, as Nicola

Sturgeon was suggesting? No. To me, this is perhaps a bit of a red

herring and really is the Scottish Government are going to ask for the

cap to be listed, I wish they had done at some time ago. We have

presented to the Scottish done at some time ago. We have

an alternative, not just for local Association in East Lothian, a

similar hardship fund is in place, which, as the professor explained,

is not making benefits payments but is writing off small amounts of

accrued debt. Those two schemes are already in place. They are already

working. One has been looked over by Audit Scotland on the other is being

considered by the Housing Association's lawyers. Whitney... We

should do it now. Let me put these points to Jamie porn. Talking of a

cap by the DWP and that having to be raised is a red herring. -- lets

talk to Jamie now. Anybody would accept that the much maligned

bedroom tax can be helped through discretionary payments of soccer is

presently a cap in place. Seems an arbitrary measure to stop the affair

from government ministers that they believe the Scottish Government has

the means to try to get rid of the bedroom tax and stop the Scottish

Government has identified this is the most reasonable request. Is it

reasonable to look at these areas that Iain Gray suggested? Ian has

already had that discussion and dialogue is ongoing. People are

there, particularly those at the sharp end of the bedroom tax will be

looking for a politician to come together and find a solution. I

think it is pretty clear that discretionary housing payments are

the most obvious mechanism. I feel that we can continue to look for

some solution but I thought it was interesting what Paul was saying. I

think he was pretty clear and the welfare reform committee have had a

number of experts from the sector also accepting there are a number of

limitations on the Scottish Parliament's ability to act in terms

of the reservations set out in the Scotland act. Is this a good use of

?15 million, in your view? One could suggest that ?50 million might be

better spent on trying to encourage people to move out of under-occupied

properties into people who are overcrowded into these properties. I

think there is something going on here that we have to be careful of.

I do not think the discretionary housing fund is the best way for the

Scottish Government to use this as they million pounds it has found. I

think there is a good case to be made for adopting the method that

was highlighted by yourself by what is going on in Renfrewshire. In

fact, what is going on in reverse today is exactly what Lord Freud

suggested to members of the welfare committee when he met over one year

ago. Do you accept... This is not a new idea. It can be made to work

effectively to stop the DEHP is not a perfect fit for what we want this

money to do. I would suggest that perhaps we won't to find an

alternative way for this money to go. Do you accept this benefit

changes causing hardship? Inevitably there will be winners and losers

when policy is designed to make better use of existing housing

stock. There is already over ?34 million available through the

discretionary housing fund to mitigate against those who have

problems with the change in the rules. So what I do say is that if

there is money available and it is undersubscribed in the current year

then perhaps simply bidding each other for the amount of money that

we want to see in the fund next year is not the most effective way to go.

That is an interesting point. When we have the money available from

Westminster and two thirds of the local authority in Scotland have not

applied for it, if this is causing so much hardship, why would local

authorities not ask for the cash? I understand that came late in the day

and there have been criticism of the operators and it came after the

Scottish Government had already made the maximum amount that local

governments the maximum amount that local

this is if we are talking about red herrings, I think this is a red

herring from the Department for Work and Pensions. We know that this is a

measure that has been put in place that is causing distress to people.

The Scottish Government has come up with a straightforward solution that

if the cap is listed, it will be compliant with law and I think we

should be getting on with that and it is incumbent on the DWP to

respond. What is your sense, Iain Gray, office this obscenity of all

the parties working together? You have been critical in the part of

John Swinney and saying that to some extent he has not been mitigating

the fool affects for political classical. -- of this talk of all

the parties working together. When the budget that we were discussing

was already introduced there was no additional funding. John has brought

in an additional ?20 million. He has now said that he has the final ?15

million. I think Jimmy is right. The most important thing is that the

80,000 households affected, like Jean, the one you should your film,

I think their expectation is that we should reach a position where nobody

in Scotland has 2p the bedroom tax and certainly nobody has two days

eviction because of arrears. The important thing is that we reach a

position on Wednesday where irrespective of the answer of the

Scottish Government -- the answer the Scottish Government get from the

DWP that we put a system in that achieve that. I think we are very

close to that and it is definitely, to my mind, a price worth having.

How would you urge Lord Freud to respond to this letter from Nicola

Sturgeon? First of all, the decision that is involved here is well above

my pay grade. However, it is fair to say that there are alternative

methods. I think say that there are alternative

asking the Scottish say that there are alternative

is broaden its say that there are alternative

sure that it has an alternative route by which this money which it

has managed to find can be used by the purpose it has identified. You

would not urge Lord Freud to raise the cap? That is an option but it is

not the only option. The last thing I want to do is see the Scottish

Government blaming the UK Government for not making the decision it once

when the Scottish Government itself could find alternative to deal with

this issue. Are you convinced that the

alternative work, Jamie Hepburn? And if the DWP says no, should the

Government be looking at those? We need to be clear, the reservations

in the Scotland act is not just about direct payments in your social

Security payments, it is also about payments in respect of what would

beetles and security payments. So what might be legal for local

government might not actually be legal for the Scottish Parliament.

Thank you for joining us this evening.

Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages.

They say that the Institute of chartered accountants want more

information from both governments. The financial Times says the cost of

a financial regulator in an independent Scotland is being

questioned also. That's all from me. More news is

always on BBC Scotland's website and Good Morning Scotland is on Radio

Scotland tomorrow morning at 6am. Good night.

After a spell of overnight rain, maybe some snow across the high

ground in the north. Most going to choose the north. Most go into

Tuesday on a dry and brighter note that there will be some heavy

thunder to the south and west. Some of you avoid them altogether and

there will probably more dry weather than met for many interesting.

Particularly in Northern Ireland, wind is not as strong. The few

showers are possible, especially to the