06/02/2014 Newsnight Scotland

a very good friend of mine is having a a operation tomorrow morning. Show

her this ad and have sympathy for another cancer. Both very much

indeed. Tonight, on Newsnight Scotland, yet

another setback for the Justice Secretary's plans to change the law

on corroboration. We'll speak to Convenor of Committee who says he's

making bad law. And, as a research student she discovered pulsars.

We'll talk to Professor Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell. About her appointment

as the first woman President of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. Good

evening. The Justice Secretary has a plan. But it's not going terribly

well. He would like to abolish the principle of corroboration in Scots

law. The legal establishment is against him. I'm not convinced a

case has been made to abolish corroboration. I have said it

shouldn't be on the bill. I'm always open to persuasion if good arguments

come forward. The Justice Secretary is determined to go-ahead with

abolition, he appoint a former High Court judge to review what

additional safeguards against wrongful conviction might replace

corroboration. He has proposed increasing the majority needed for a

15-person jury to secure a conviction from eight to ten. If

MSPs vote to the abolish corroboration this year, the

Government will take effect once parliament has had the chance to

consider and act on the findings next year. At Question Time,

opposition leaders said this was not on. Surely, First Minister, it is

better to make good law later than bad law now. Law-making in reverse

is a shoddy way to expect Scotland's parliament to act. The First

Minister insisted reform is necessary. Because there are many

hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who cannot, because of this

rule, bring their cases to court, or get their cases brought to court,

there is a feeling of serious injustice. Most of the legal

establishment, including all but one of our current judges, are opposed

to abolish corroboration. It it's allowing access to the criminal

justice system. Allowing more cases to be heard in criminal courts. And,

potentially, looking at the facts and circumstances of these cases, I

keep going back to the point. That fairness and proving a case beyond

all wherein reasonable doubt is something we hold very dear in the

criminal law in Scotland. The evidence they present sod far has

not persuaded the Justice Committee that the case for ending

corroboration has been made. -- presented so. I'm joined now from

Edinburgh the Convenor of the Justice Committee, the SNP's

Christine Grahame. Here in the studio is Mhairi McGowan who runs

the Assist project, which helps victims of domestic abuse though the

legal process. Would it be your intention to vote against the

Criminal Justice Bill as it stands. In other words without the

proposals, whatever they are? Can I say to you, first of all, I'm

speaking as convenor of the Justice Committee. I have to make clear that

the whole of the committee was concerned about the successful

prosecution of rape cases, sexual abuse, domestic violence, to take

three categories, can we put to the side the fact that we all want to

get to the same destination, which is to secure and have secure

convictions. But what the committee was required to do was to listen to

the evidence of all parties and to take a view whether, at stage one,

with the evidence before us, the case for abolishing corroboration

had been made. We said it had not been made. I take your point. Would

it be your intention to vote against the bill as it stands? I'm waiting

to see what... The Cabinet secretary made a big move now. I have to say,

that is the Justice Committee doing it work. I have to see now what will

evolve in the coming days and weeks. Haven't made up your mind? As I said

in your clip, I'm always open to hear the evidence and to see - The

reason I ask you. Some of our parliamentary nerdy people have been

doing sums and reckon the way things stand it would only need you or one

other SNP member to vote against this and the bill would fail? You

are talking as if each party in the parliament has a solid view for or

against corroboration. That's not the case. There are people on the

Labour benches who want to see it go. I know there are people on the

Labour benches who want it to stay. I think there... I'm not sure about

the Conservatives. I know that is the case in the Labour benches. It

isn't as clear-cut as that. It's an extremely complex and difficult

issue that takes a great deal of thought. I do hope the parliament

listens to the considered opinions of the Justice Committee. Would you

accept that the bill, as it stands, obviously you are in favour of

getting rid of corroboration, would you also agree with Christine

Grahame that it would be better to wait until we see what the

safeguards are? I agree that we both want the same things. We both want

justice for victims and we both want to make sure there is no

miscarriages of justice. But, at the end of the day, the position now is

that the current justice system is failing victims. Failing victims

every day. I see hundreds of women every year whose case can't go

forward because of system we have in Scotland of corroboration. It needs

to go. The argument now seems to be, OK, we need safeguards in case

innocent people are convicted. We ought to wait, according to I think

Christine Grahame's committee, unless I'm misrepresenting them - I

think you are. We haven't considered, the committee hasn't sat

since the Cabinet secretary announced the safeguards. I can't

speak for the committee on that. Right, OK. You would presumably

accept the need for safeguards? Yes. We need to look at the quality of

the evidence. I think what was said before today was that the Crown

would come up with a system, a test that would look at the quality of

evidence rather than the system we have at the moment, which is a

quantitative change. At the end of the day, victims groups are waiting

another year to see what that committee will come out and say.

It's disappointing. I'm disappointed. Can you explain what

the process is here? It seems odd. You have the Criminal Justice Bill,

which you are being asked to pass. You have the work coming up weapon

new suggestions. You seem to have Ken hi McGascle coming up with new

suggestions. It's unclear as to what you are being asked to agree to? The

Cabinet secretary didn't intend to bring in that section of the Bill

until 201 a 5. The timetable remains the same. The judge has been

appointed by the Lord Gill. To paper over the cracks is a bit rude. Let

us see what evolves over this these weeks. The committee said, we all

want to get to this place where people who are victims of these

crimes, which are difficult, get not only to court, but get their cases

proved. Bear with me a minute. Bear with me a minute. No. This seems to

take an awfully long time to do things which are basic. We have seen

the William Roache case. England is helped held up to us a place with no

corroboration. His case fell apart. Nobody comes out of that happily. I

think we must be aware of looking south of the border for examples. I

don't think it's just about looking south of the border, looking across

the world. Where else across the world do we have this system of

corroboration? We need to look at justice for victims. At the moment,

victims aren't getting the opportunity to get into court and

get the evidence test the because it has fallen at the hurdle before

that. That is the crucial point. To get them... Yes. Not necessarily

there would be a higher rate of conviction, most cases would come to

court? That's right. There are good credible allegations being made that

can't get into court. Hang on, Christine Grahame, we are running

out of time. I want to ask you about, I think you saw the thing at

the top of Newsnight, about David Cameron's speech he is making

tomorrow, phone a friend. Yes. You looking forward to calls from

England, Wales and Northern Ireland? My son starts in London, who is marr

I whying a Londoner. I could do with hearing from imhad. That be would

handy. What do you make of the overall idea? He is a silly, silly

man. Is that necessarily silly? He is doing all silly things. He will

stand at the Olympics and say... It worked for the Canadians in queue

Beck, isn't it? No. It's foolish. Half of my relatives are in England.

My late mother, who was English, with as was a great campaigner for

independence. He is a foolish man. Leave this here where it is. I'm

serious. I could do with hearing from my son! If he's watching, which

he won't be if he's in London right now? True. Maybe he will take the

hint. Thank you very much indeed. She is best known for discovering

pulsars when she was only a research student. Her supervisors took the

Nobel prize, but she went on have a distinguished career in

astrophysics. This week she was elected as president of the Royal

Society of Edinburgh. Surprisingly, she is the first woman to hold the

post. We'll speak to her in a moment, but first here's Huw

Williams. Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell grat waded from the University of

Glasgow in 1965. -- graduated. She went on to study for her PhD in am

Cambridge. He was the first to notice a regular signal pulsing once

a second, picked up by radio telescopes and recorded as blips on

the readout. It gave rise to jokey speculation about extraterrestrial

life forms. Kneel kneel they have discovered little green men. --

NEWS REEL: They have discovered little green

men. Were rotating stars sending out bursts of information.

NEWS REEL: Star that is send out radio signals

so regularly it was thought by some they came from intelligent beings.

Was her supervisor, not her, who won the Nobel Prize for physics. She has

always accepted that decision. She has been a passionate campaigner to

get more women into the forefront of science and technology. How did you

first become interested in the stars? I have been interested as

long as I could remember. The numbers taking higher level physics

at this school this year are almost at 50% split, 20 girls out of a

total of 54 pupils. The proportions vary from year-to-year. The numbers

have increased dramatically, even in the course of just one man's

teaching career. Tell me when you think you've got it. About there.

About there. Not a wee bit further? Could it go further? When I first

started teaching it was in a Glasgow school. Very few girls took physics

further than fourth year. There must have been pupils you could see would

have potential in the subject? Absolutely. Many pupils had the

potential. It was seen as a subject where they wouldn't be able to

pursue a career for themselves. It wasn't a subject for girls. What

about his pupils? What do they think of the fact that we're still talking

about gender and science as an issue? It's really old fashioned and

people just need to like kind of be more open to the fact that women do

have brains and they should be able to work in the science world. I

don't think anyone would dispute that women have brains. When you

say, I want to do a science or engineering subject, people think

that you're a girl. Is that attitude completely died out? I've never

personally met anyone that has had that attitude towards it. I'm sure

it does exist with some people. When you said to your mum and dad that

that is what you wanted to do. How was the reaction from them? They

weren't surprised at all. They didn't think because I was a girl I

shouldn't do something in science. At university there are

predominantly men in specific engineering courses still. It's an

issue. Is it annoying we have having this conversation? It's a bit like

tiresome, like, I think we should by this stage know that women like

doing science subjects that there are women professionals doing maths

or engineering and I think it's a bit tiresome. It's kind of a bit

naive that people are still thinking that women aren't wanting to go into

science subjects. Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell is a still

notching up first. She has been elected the first woman as president

of the Royal Society of Edinburgh in its history.

A short while ago, I spoke to Professor Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell

from our Oxford studio. I asked her if she planned use her new post to

promote science to girls. Well, I do not particularly have an

agenda for using my position as president, but I am anxious that it

serves Scotland well as its leading academy, and there is an issue in

all of the English speaking world to do with women in science. There are

too few and they do not reach the top positions, so there certainly is

an issue there. Why it is, that is a very complex issue. It is not a

single issue. There is not a magic will it or we would have found it

some time ago. One of the things that strikes me is odd -- as all

eyes is that, until university level, girls outperform boys at

school, and despite that, there seems to be, I do not know if it is

a prejudice from schools or families or what ever, there seems to be a

lack of willingness I girls to take up scientific subjects. -- by girls.

It is in coeducational school of you find this rather sharp distinction,

and there is probably a similar distinction with boys not taking

arts and humanities subjects so much. In single-sex schools, girls

schools, there are as many girls taking science subjects as boys

would in single-sex boys school, aren't there? Have bubbly not quite

but in awful lot more than -- probably not quite, but an awful lot

more boys take the subject. Do you think that's too mash -- do you

think there is more of... Genders tend to divert to their gender

stereotypes, and they are is exactly as you described them. In some South

American countries, throughout Spain, Italy, there are a lot more

women doing physical sciences, engineering and old in top

positions, and in Southeast Asia as well. But how do you tackle that

when it is partly to do with culture and it is complex? What do you do?

We are gradually changing the culture, but it is always a slow

process. It is quite painful as a process as well, and there is a

limit to how fast you can go, but for instance, you are now finding

down South government ministers writing to companies as saying, you

must have more women on your boards, because they have discovered that

wards and also incidentally research groups are diverse. -- boards. I

guess the government has no great control over the boards of a

company, but it is an exultation. It could be translated into something

more rigid in areas where the government has control. So that is

one obvious thing. What else? Mentoring helps a lot. Role models

and mentoring. Upping the status of science, but remembering that as

well as converting school kids and teachers, you need to work on the

parents and the sisters and cousins, so it is the whole of society. There

are also changes coming about in the wake care of children -- in the way

care of children is organised. We are seeing moves towards more

paternity leave for men, and hints that this leave needs to be taken by

the men or the couple will lose it, and that is quite commonplace in

some Commonwealth countries and it is beginning to come here as well.

We cannot have you here without asking what is hot in astrophysics

at the moment. If you were explaining to a young person why

they should get into the subject and explaining what the leading edge

stuff is, what would you say? The leading edge stuff in astrophysics,

there is a lot, because of things have become much less unclear during

my lifetime, I regret to say. Nothing to do with me, but that is

how it has happened. We now know that the stuff around us, the stuff

we are made of, the stuff we are reasonably familiar with, only makes

up about 5% of the universe, and the other 95% of the matter energy in

the universe is dark and a mystery. Dark matter, dark energy. There is a

great push on trying to find out what on earth, well, not on earth,

these things are. There is also worked on how to find a radiation

predicted by Einstein called gravitational waves. Glasgow is very

strong in this and is one of the leading groups in the world. That is

another exciting area. The other thing I cannot let you go without

asking you is, when you discovered ulcers -- pulsars, if you initially

named them little green men, because the regularity of the radiation

pulsars were so a regular that you thought they had to come from some

sort of alien. No, that was a joke. It was just a joke? I regret it very

much now because it was tongue in cheek and it stuck. That is not what

everything that has been written about it says. That is because the

press is interested in extraterrestrial civilizations. I

was going to ask you if it was disappointing to you that it was not

little green men. I was mighty relieved. This is earth shattering

news. You meant it as a joke right from the start? When we had only

one, we had not a clue what it was, but after about a month, I found the

second and then the fourth, and that demolishes a little green men. ,

because there are not that many lots -- and that demolishes a little

green men. , because we were using a stupid frequency and eight staff

technique. -- a daft technique. It was a joke. It was a joke and you

demolish it in five minutes. More or less. Thank you for joining us. Now

a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Scotsman says that

William Roche has been cleared of sex abuse charges. The Financial

Times, David Cameron is wanting to keep Britain united. That is it for

this week. Gary is here on Monday. Until then, good