05/02/2014 Newsnight Scotland

of learning a very important skill future. You really need it for the

Tonight, it is another day of claim and counter claim as the renewable

energy debate heats up again. In an independent Scotland,

ministers at Holyrood say the rest of the UK will have to buy energy

from Scotland to stop their lights going out. Labour at Westminster

says if they were in power, they might just shop around and buy

elsewhere. Holyrood's Energy Minister and

Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary go head-to-head on the implications.

SNPs have backed the Scottish Government's Budget plans. There is

no final decision over how the money will be allocated. Parliament can

take action to pick up the pieces of a policy dreamed up in Westminster

that is causing real hardship to the people of Scotland.

Good evening. The Shadow Energy Secretary has been accused of

threatening voters after she suggested power builds will have to

go up in an independent Scotland. The Scottish Government has said

that the rest of the UK faces power cuts without supplies generated

north of the border. Whether it is on shore or -shore wind farms,

underwater turbines, Scotland has unique renewable energy resources.

That's why the Scottish Government has been able to set the target of

generating the equivalent of 100% of our energy needs from schemes like

these by 2020. The subject of energy has been in the air again today with

a new political row or perhaps a reheating version of the same

a new political row or perhaps a row. Labour's Caroline Flint claimed

that investment in renewables would fall and

that investment in renewables would bills in an independent Scotland,

but the Scottish Government dismiss that as political point scoring and

said the rest of the UK would have to continue to rely on importing

electricity, generated at windfarms like this one.

Today awe claim and counter claim, take your pick. Either we need to

spread the costs or a UK wide market would continue after independence.

We will need power from south of the border or they will need the

electricity and we will go on selling them. Caroline Flint's

comments were raised in House of Commons today. The member said this

morning one-third of British investment in renewables comes to

Scotland, but Scots contribute less than one tenth to this. Meaning the

rest of the UK supports Scottish renewable regeneration through their

builds. Scotland has a tremendous

opportunity to contribute to the growth of renewable energy as part

of the United Kingdom. That's going to take subsidies, subsidies that

come from consumers bills. Mike Weir focussed on the bills the

constituents are paying now. A constituent approached me and is

facing a 50% increase in his unit costs. Others find they have been

hammered by high standing charges. Isn't it time for the Government to

take action on this and stop the practises?

This market expert says a newly independent Scotland would carry on

being able to sell renewable power to our neighbours down south. In The

short to medium-term, it is highly likely that the rest of the UK would

need Scottish electricity. We export more. We have an excess

need to use it within Scotland. So we export

need to use it within Scotland. So that also helps the UK meet its

green carbon reduction targets. The question is further into the future,

does the UK look at alternative sources and in the long-term, will

it be happy to pay subsidies for Scottish green power. Will bills go

up if we vote yes for independence in September? The argument if

renewable subsidies had to be covered by Scottish consumers alone

is there would be an increase. Wind power is double the market cost of

electricity and that's on shore wind, off-shore wind is paid about

triple the market price of electricity. If Scottish consumers

had to bear that and it is a big if, bills would rise significantly.

Maybe what this shows is there is a great untapped source of renewable

energy out there. The hot air produced by politicians!

Joining me is Scotland's Energy Minister and in London, Labour's

Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint. Caroline Flint, the Scottish

Government is saying whatever the politics of this, if Scotland became

independent, the rest of the UK would have to buy renewable energy

from Scotland otherwise the lights would go out? Well, that's just not

true. We will have an opportunity to look at how much we create of other

own energy, but we can get energy from France, from Holland, and

Ireland as well and two more inter rs are planned. In terms of our

electricity in England, we only source 5% of that from Scotland and

if you listen to the Chief Executive of National Grid, he does say and he

said it recently to a Select Committee that actually England with

said it recently to a Select meet its renewable and carbon

emission targets and needs just without Scotland being part of that.

To respond to that last point, Gordon. What Caroline The flint

omitted is the words in theory. The National Grid said in theory that

would be the case. It is possible. A lot of protect on which the series

predicated may not go ahead. As David Hunter just said a moment ago,

in the short and medium-term, if there is a matter of undisputed fact

that England will need Scotland's energy, Scotland's nuclear and

renewable energy and other sources of energy to keep the lights on in

England because of gem warned about a year ago that the margin of

capacity over demand at peak times is 2% which is far from safe. That

also means Gordon the prices will go up because the UK has failed... Hang

on. If Scotland becomes independent, the rest of the UK can get energy

from wherever they feel like? That's another point. Caroline is wrong

about that for these two reasons. The amount of electricity one can

import from France and mainland Europe is around about two gigawatts

and France is selling electricity surplus to Germany and thirdly, if

you go to Warwick as I have done to understand the technicalities, the

National Grid will tell you that they cannot manage this because the

price can't be dealt with on the same day basis. Let Caroline Flint

reply? England already generates more renewable energy than Scotland

does. At the heart of this issue is how we move forward. At the moment,

as you full well know, is bill payers across Wales, England and

Scotland contributing through their bills to

Scotland contributing through their energy. Of the money that comes...

Let Caroline Flint finish. Calm down. The situation is that a third

of investment towards renewable pot goes to Scotland, but Scots bill

payers only pay one tenth to the pot. As far as nuclear is concerned,

the money for nuclear is spread over 25 to 30 years. I'm talking about a

cost that happens year-on-year. What is interesting the SNP said should

Scotland exit the UK you are not prepared to support contributing

towards nuclear elsewhere but you expect English and Welsh bill payers

to contribute to your renewable investment and that can't be right.

You can't have it both ways. Well... Hang on, there is a basic point

here. Why on earth if Scotland becomes independent should the rest

of the UK subsidise renewable production in Scotland? Why on earth

should they? Well, for two reasons, Gordon. Firstly, as your expert has

said, the system at the moment is a UK system and that is run by

technical experts and electricity from Scotland is required most of

the time to keep the lights on in England. That's rubbish. That's

total rubbish. The basic point here is why on earth should voters in

England who have just seen Scotland walk off with presumely a lot of the

oil money, Scotland threatening not to pay its share of the national

debt unless it gets the currency union you want. That's fine, we

don't mind paying for Scottish renewables through our electricity

bill, that's OK? Can I answer those points? It is in the interests of us

all co-operate and not make threats that

Labour would rather get electricity from France, nuclear power stations

than those in Scotland. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Can I

just say, the most recent report, expert reporters from Aberdeen

University, and on the basis of the studies for nuclear power, 35mm

hands, far outstripping renewable incentives, following the prices for

electricity, they are likely to be lower than the rest of the UK. --

?35 million. Caroline Flint, the bottom line is, from your own point

of view, it would be better if the rest of the UK dealt with in a

commercial sense with Scotland and if it made sense to die at

subsidised properties, -- subsidised prices, then Scotland could do that.

If England and Wales need extra energy beyond what we create

ourselves, we're happy to look at what Scotland could offer, but we're

happy to look at France elsewhere also, echoes the relationship would

be commercial. What I am saying, because we work together across the

UK, we share the risks, but we also shared the rewards, and that is why

we have a situation where English and Welsh bill payers are

contributing to Scottish renewable energy in a way that Scottish bill

payers do not, and I'm OK with that. But if Scotland exits the UK and in

16 months I am the energy secretary, how do I justify that to English and

Welsh bill payers? Can I just say about the energy supply in

Scotland, 33% of Scottish electricity comes from nuclear

power, and the plans of the SNP is to close that down. That is totally

wrong. When the wind isn't blowing in Scotland, we send energy into

Scotland from England. The assertion that was made is completely wrong, I

have visited the nuclear stations and we made it clear that as long as

it is safe for them to generate nuclear electricity, they will

continue. That assertion is not what she made... It is completely wrong.

It is based on physical scaremongering, I am afraid to say.

If Scotland becomes independent, it might be up to Caroline Flint to

decide this, it could be the Conservatives, it could be the

Liberal Democrats in London, it certainly will not be used. This is

like the currency issue, one side as we want independence because of the

advantages, on the other side, you say you want to rebuild half of the

UK. The whole point of the SNP is to get out of the UK, you cannot have

it both ways. If I could reply to the charges you are making, Scottish

electricity is, as your expert is required for, keeping the lights on

in England, in the medium term as well. Common sense will prevail. In

the medium to long-term, we will make our own. We have goodwill

towards England too happy to work with vast...

towards England too happy to work electricity, the lights will go off.

That is what the regulator has said. People say all sorts of things. The

bottom line is, the decision is not belonging to you, you have no say in

UK energy policy if you are independent. Mr Ewing, the truth is,

there is more renewable energy completed in England than in

Scotland. We have got offshore wind coming from England and across

England and Wales who are driving forward a programme of nuclear and

renewable energy to re-the supply. The truth is, your comments about

scaremongering is really because the SNP wants to shut out any serious

discussions about these important issues affecting the UK but also the

consequences of Scotland exiting the UK. A Scottish people want to vote

to do that, that is absolutely their choice. I just laying out some of

the issues that have to be addressed that need to be spoken about now.

Very, very briefly. After the referendum is over and Scotland

votes yes, there will be sensible discussions. He wanted different,

but the same. There are threats of abandoning nuclear power and going

to France. This would be rejected when independence negotiations begin

in earnest and common-sense will prevail. We shall have to leave it

there. MSPs have tonight overwhelmingly

backed the Scottish Government's budget plans, including action to

counter the impact of the so-called Bedroom Tax. Ministers will now ask

the UK Government to lift the current cap on Scottish

contributions to benefits to allow the new money to be allocated.

Failing that, the Finance Secretary John Swinney says he will use the

money to prevent evictions where tenants have landed in trouble

purely as a result of the tenants have landed in trouble

the Scottish government can do to mitigate the effects have been at

the heart of this budget, but with welfare a reserved matter, the

finance secretary?s powers are limited. Nonetheless, today he

announced nearly ?23 million in discretionary housing payment used

to help those struggling to pay the rent. Scottish ministers have asked

the UK government to lift the cap on that amount to allow a further ?12

million to be spent in order to fully mitigate the effects. If they

are not successful, John Swinney said this money will be made

available to social landlords to avoid evictions. I urge all parties

to support the approach I have outlined today, supporters and

pressing the UK government to lift the cap on discretionary household

payments to prevent people getting into the terrible spiral of debt and

to put resources into place to support the vulnerable. Parliament

can take action to pick up the pieces of a policy dreamt up in

Westminster that is causing real hardship to the people of Scotland.

The Labour Party said it was just because of pressure put on by his

party that John Swinney decided to act in the first place and that of

the two parties, Labour was in more of a hurry to reverse the Bedroom

Tax. I want to see it abolished by a Labour government next year. I

understand... I understand that Mr Swinney and his colleagues want to

see it abolished in 2016, in an independent Scotland. I think that

my way is better. It is better because it will lift the yield from

tenants in London, Manchester and Birmingham and Newcastle as well as

from Scotland. Despite ?77 million for business rate relief, the

Conservatives refused to support the budget saying it did not focus on

the economy and that the SNP were trying instead to extract political

mileage from welfare reform. It should have been about individual

measures. They may not win votes in the short-term but they will help

the country in the medium term and the long-term. Individual measures

that might help to continue the growth and put it up to a more

sustainable footing, because whilst the information is good at the

moment, the underlying information is clear, we need business

investment in order to maintain the positive news. The budget also

includes ?55 million to provide free school meals to all pupils in the

first three years of primary school and ?59 million to expand free

childcare to hard up families. Although the Liberal Democrats did

not get the it's too early years education they hoped for, they

nonetheless called it a good day for young children. It will change their

fortunes so they can reach their potential and it would be a

partnership between parents and this Parliament, so I thank John Swinney

for the work that he has done together with me in achieving what I

think is a really good day. Yes, 108, Knowle, 15. The Renault

abstentions. The motion is therefore agreed to. The budget Scotland

number three Bill is passed. Despite the thumping victory, Mr Swinney

continues to complain about limited powers. Oppositions say that he has

all the Parry needs. It is clear the divisions are only set to widen as

we head towards referendum day. No time for the papers tonight, I'm

afraid, that is all from me. We're back again tomorrow, until then,

from everyone here, good night. Aloe, the strong wind

tonight. A blustery start.