02/04/2014 Newsnight Scotland

Just imagine London without any. -- a sudden cessation. As a society, we

would fall apart in a relatively short space of time.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, we will hear how four separate lattes

are planning to ditch for your confidence in the upcoming European

elections. Good evening. You may feel you've seen and heard enough

about Europe already today - the Clegg-Farage road show has been

remarkable in many ways. But outside that circus, there are some

Europe-related issues which have a real bearing on people across the

continent, including most of us in Scotland. In a moment, we'll hear

four Scottish parties argue why their view is worth your vote.

First, Huw Williams sets the agenda. Whether it is crofters in the

Highlands, causeways between the islands, fishermen's days at sea,

freedom of movement or the length of the working day, decisions taken in

Europe affect most of us, most of the time. Scotland has six MEPs. At

the moment, the SNP and Labour have two each, and there is one Lib Dem

and one Conservative. We will elect our new representatives at the end

of May. They will join a total of 751 MEPs elected by more than 500

million citizens across 28 member states. Since the last election, the

powers of MEPs have expanded considerably. They now have an

important say in things like agriculture and regional aid. They

can press the Commission to legislate on particular areas,

including issues raised by voters, such as the big impact they had on

fisheries. They have to consent to EU trade agreements with non-EU

countries, and the proof new states. For the first time, new MEPs will be

able to veto whoever governments choose as president of the European

Commission, as well as vetting each candidate for the 27 EU commission

jobs. But it seems we really could not care less. -- EU Commission.

There is one question, what is the most important issue facing Britain

today, and you have to fill in the space. The most spontaneous one

mentioned is 2% for Europe. Should we care more about Europe, because

the parliament has a considerable effect on all of us, doesn't it? It

is a great paradox to me. The Scottish Parliament plays an

important part in the lives of people in Scotland. Westminster is

the same for everybody in the UK. And the European Parliament,

undeniably, it plays a very important part in the life of the

people of the UK, and yet the turnout is absolutely derisory.

We know that if the Conservatives win the next UK general election,

they are promising an in-out referendum on Britain's membership

of the EU. Almost 60% of people in Scotland think there should be a

referendum. That tends to be stronger feelings amongst men, older

people, but also supporters of the SNP and the Conservatives. But when

it comes to how people say they would actually vote in the

referendum, there is a majority of Scots who say that they would vote

to stay in. So, it seems Scots really are different. People in

Scotland are more likely to favour staying in the European Union van

respondents across the rest of the UK. About 53% of people in Scotland

want to stay in, compared to 44% across the rest of the UK. And there

is another EU paradox. The electorate seems disengaged, but

political parties cannot help getting hot and bothered about this

place. The issue of Europe has nearly destroyed the Labour Party,

in the late 1970s, a great civil war. The SDP split away from Labour,

nearly destroying it, largely as a result of Europe. Labour were in the

wilderness for 18 years. They then passed the poisoned chalice to the

Conservatives. And they were then out in the wilderness for 13 years.

It is an issue which has created enormous difficulties, and which has

scarred two of the biggest parties in the UK, and yet, for most people,

it simply does not float their boat. Of course, Scotland's place in

Europe will be decided by how we vote in May, and what we decide in

September. I'm joined now from Inverness by

Conservative Dr Ian Duncan, from Edinburgh by Stepehn Gethins of the

SNP and Chas Booth of the Scottish Green Party. And here in Glasgow,

Asim Khan from Scottish Labour. Dr Ian Duncan, when it comes to

Europe, do you fall on the side of Nigel Farage or David Cameron? I am

clearly a supporter of David Cameron. Let's make sure it works,

and works for us, not against us. So, you would favour renegotiating

the terms of which Britain is a member of the European Union? Well,

I think we need to start looking at that. We know how the EU can impact

on our daily lives. Let's cut red tape, let's reduce regulation,

repatriate the laws, bring them closer to home. Let's try and make

the EU work in our favour. But what always seems less clear in these

discussions is, which laws and which measures you would actually like to

bring back to Britain. Well, we have to start where we have to make sure

that our key industries are protected. One of those would be the

financial services industry, in Edinburgh and in London. Let's make

sure there is no interference as there were attempts to do recently.

Let's have a look at social Charter issues like the working time

directive. Why should we be looking to regulate the working day across

the whole of the EU? Of those two things you mentioned, the financial

issue did not actually materialise, so the one thing you are wanting to

repatriate is the power of bosses in Britain to make their workers work

longer hours? Not at all. I am trying to highlight that there was a

series of attempts not long ago to try to regulate what is going on

here in Britain. But those did not so, you want to repatriate powers,

and then have an in-out referendum, and the only example you have given

me is the power of bosses to make workers work longer hours? Not at

all, I also touched on the social chapter. I used to work in the

fishing industry. Fishermen are among the most regulated people on

the planet. We want to repatriate far more of the fishing powers. So,

you want to abolish the common fisheries policy? I am saying, let's

make sure that fishermen themselves are involved in the process. Let's

have laws made here at home, why not? Let's do it now. Asim Khan, the

policy of the Labour Party on a European referendum is now entirely

mysterious, isn't it? I do not think so. Ed Miliband has been clear. We

favour being within Europe, however, we recognise that with the

increasing size of Europe that if there are more powers which are

going to go to Brussels, then we recognise that there will be an

in-out referendum. What does that mean, if more powers go to

Brussels? Well, we do not know what that means yet until we know what

the increased size of the Eurozone is going to look like. But we are

quite clear that we want to make sure that the Labour Party will lock

Britain's position with Rick Garde to know more powers going to

Brussels... -- with regard. I thought your position was that if it

was more powers which led to changes in European treaties, have I

misunderstood? So there could be more powers going to Europe as long

as they are not actually treaty changes? No, you are misinterpreting

what I am saying. The premise of your question is wrong. We do not

actually know what those powers are. What we are prepared to accept

is that the will of the British people might mean that more powers

going to Brussels will cause trouble, will cause a dilutions of

the United Kingdom's position within Europe, and we want to make sure

that we have a strong position within Europe, albeit that we want

to assure -- we want to make sure that more powers's I am still not

sure I know what that means. Can we have a referendum on whether or not

to stay in Europe? Well, let's focus on... If Scotland votes for

independence in a few months' time, it will get something it has never

had before in Europe, which is a government which stands up for its

interests. It was interesting to hear Dr Ian Duncan talking about

fisheries. But would the first thing not be to have a referendum on

staying in the European Union, what is the argument against? Let's take

it one referendum at a time. I am not suggesting you do not have your

independence referendum first, but I am saying, if you win the

independence referendum, what exactly is the argument, if it is

going to be this great explosion in democracy, for refusing to give the

people of Scotland the right to decide on whether or not to be a

member of the European Union? The first thing the Scottish Government

will do will be to have a general election. That will be the first

thing people can do. Rather than follow the UK Government's lead,

which is to lose friends and influence across Europe, is to have

a Scottish Government which stands up for Scottish interests, not a UK

Government which fails to do so. In fact, it was a Tory government which

described our fisheries as expendable, in a European context. A

Scottish Government could never get away with that. So, your answer to

my question is that you do not like Tory policy on fish? My view is that

personally, I do not think we should have an in-out referendum, I think

we have to make the most of our relationship with Europe. In

Scotland, UKIP have not even saved their deposit in an election yet.

Let's get in there and make the best job and for once, get a good deal

out of Europe. Chas Booth, I am not quite sure what the Green Party pass

policy is on referendums in Europe? Your own piece identified that there

is no real appetite for it. Scots are overwhelmingly in favour of our

membership of the European Union. Hang on, not overwhelming, it is a

majority, but the poll also said that the majority would be in favour

of an in-out referendum. I do not see the value of such a referendum.

Your piece said 60% of Scots are in favour of EU membership. They

recognise that considerable numbers of Scottish jobs come from our

membership in the European Union, and they recognise that the European

Union has brought us considerable environmental and social

protections. In contrast, the Tories said they want to cut back on our

social protection. As the Green Party, we think we need more

protection. We want Europe to stand up for the interests of workers, as

well as big business. We want a welcoming Europe, which welcomes

migrants and immigrants and values their presence. But you do not think

we should have the right to decide whether to be part of that or not? I

do not think there is appetite for that. There is an overwhelming

support for membership of the European Union. But the poll has

told you there was an appetite for that? An appetite for being masked

but when asked people want to stay in the European Union. What is the

point of asking them, then? I am in favour of the yes vote and I look

forward to Scotland taking its place in the family of European nations

but a green vote in May gives us an opportunity to send out a message

that we want a European Union that stands up for workers' rights and is

welcoming to migrants. We ought to get away from this UKIP agenda which

the media is keen to promote of this xenophobic agenda. A vote for the

Greens would be the best way of stopping UKIP. I am struck by the

contradictions here. If the people of Scotland wanted there to be a

referendum on membership of the year, we should have that. --

membership of the EU. Lets people make understand how Europe works for

them so we can try to make them that. I don't see why we need a

referendum to do that. Most people recognise the benefits of

membership. Of course the European Union needs to be reformed, it needs

to be more receptive to the interests of people. But

overwhelmingly we benefit from it. If we vote yes, do you think

Scotland will still be in the European Union? In many respects a

yes vote in September could be the best way to ensure that Scotland

stays in the European Union. The agenda at Westminster is very much

the UKIP tail wagging the dog of all of the large parties. Asim Khan,

what is your view? We only need to look at the legislative framework,

it is clear that there needs to be unanimity amongst the 27 member

states to permit Scotland to enter into the European Union. An

independent Scotland would probably not be able to do that. Come on, it

is inconceivable the European Union would not allow them to enter. There

might be problems with the terms of entry. Can you imagine the European

Union, trying to be a soft power, what kind of signal would it send?

You have to look at what has happened in the past. We have seen

the example of Croatia, it took them eight to ten years to get in. This

is the problem with the yes campaign, they are saying things

that simply are not going to happen. What is fascinating... What are you

saying is not going to happen? Are you saying that an independent

Scotland could not be a member or there would have to be a

renegotiation and the SNP are being too blase? I think the latter.

Labour saying that Scotland would be like Croatia ten years ago. What

nonsense. We are the most energy rich country in Europe. The very

thought that the European Union would not bend over backwards to get

Scotland in is nonsense. Let's look at the opinion of experts. Sir David

Edwards, former European commission judge... Ian Duncan, if Scotland was

refused membership, presumably many members of your party would be

delighted. Let's be clear, the idea that Scotland would become an

automatic member is dead in the water. In reality there will have to

be a negotiation if we want to be in there. There will have to be red

lines and we don't not what they are. -- we don't know.

Tomorrow's front pages, starting with the times. -- the Times.

Pressure on Cameron to bar Scots at next election. She was our Princess,

that is... From all of us on the programme, good night.

For Thursday, not an awful lot of change on the weather front. The

further west and north you live the more likely you are to catch thick

cloud and out wrecks of rain. Belfast around 4pm it looks like

there will be some rain and just like the last few days of the east

coast of Scotland lots of cloud and drizzle around Aberdeen, still very

cold in Newcastle, down to Scarborough, Hull, possibly the

wash. We could get up to 20 degrees in the London area depending on the

sunshine. The south-west of the country, have wrecks of rain, very

cool in Plymouth, 11 degrees. Behind this weather front we have cooler,

fresh air waiting for us as we head into