24/04/2014 Newsnight Scotland

fields, as well as the cows. Politics - so we will all ultimately

decide there is room for both. On Newsnight Scotland - if it is

true, the result of the referendum will depend on whether you feel your

personal prosperity will benefit or suffer. What should we make of calls

to prioritise the inequality? And would constitutional change make

that any more possible? Good evening. In this era of

austerity politics, it is no surprise the media is full of

stories about food banks. We hear tales of fabulous celebrity wealth.

Holyrood will discuss how to get out of the poverty trap. First our

economics correspondent, Coletta Smith, looks at inequality in

Scotland. Aberdeen may be wealthy, but it is a place of extremes. This

report starts at a city food bank. You could add vegetables. You can do

a lot with couscous. I eat a lot of couscous. Claiming is

a very big thing. If they buy stuff they cannot buy toiletries and then

they cannot buy the cleaning stuff. A lot are washing their hair with

washing up liquid. How do you help people and give out bags in your own

neighbourhood? Some weeks you have to take one for yourself as well. It

is not nice. Why should people be keeping me. I should be keeping

myself. My mum and father brought me up, you do not ask anybody for

nothing. I do need help. On the other side of Aberdeen things roll

very differently. This is the area with more 4X4s than anywhere else in

the UK. With calls for financial equality becoming a central planking

in the debate and extremes like Aberdeen, it is worth finding out

how unequal Scotland really is. Figures from 2010 show the UK was

the seventh most unequal of the world's developed country. With

chilli being the most un unequal and the Nordic countries being the most

equal. Scotland would be in the middle of that list. It is more

equal than the UK as a whole, largely because in London there is a

massive difference between those who are paid the most and those who are

paid the least. During the 1990s, what we saw in Scotland is less

inequality. More and more people were joining the middle classes,

except for that top 5% of high earners. Of course, the bottom 5%,

who were getting left behind. What we have seen these last three or

four years is more and more people joining the bottom shelf and getting

caught in the poverty trap. It is mainly families we are working with.

Decent families, good people, who would love to get out of the trap

they are in if they could find their way. You will see, both of them are

working - they only have a part-time job on the minimum wage. It does not

bring enough money into the house for them. Would independence bring

about a more equal Scotlanded? Fewer pockets of -- Scotland? Fewer

pockets of 4X4s. It has been the lowest paid who have suffered the

most. They have seen wage cuts. The top 10% of corporate managers have

seen significant real-wage rises. If Scotland does vote yes, would a new

Government be able to deal with inequality more effectively?

Domestic policy can make a difference. It will require them to

take on interest, particularly in boardrooms and be active in areas

they have refused to be active in for a long time now. Scotland faces

different problems in different areas N the Highlands and islands,

it is not all plain sailing. It costs more to go about and heat your

house. The enterprise agency are trying to deal with that through

higher wages. What we are trying to focus on is encouraging business

development, business growth, that helps increase average incomes or

support slightly higher wage rates than traditionally have been

supported across the islands and Highlands area. Looking at growing

sectors where there are key markets, such as life sciences and renewable

energy. Also in the more traditional industries, supporting developments

which are very high quality, for example, the tourism sector and

high-quality food and drink products, aimed at exports in the

main. The Government, in an independent Scotland would have new

powers to change taxes and benefits. If they want to attract more foreign

investment, it is a difficult balance between creating jobs and

raising wages. I am joined from Edinburgh by Jamie

Livingston, head of Oxfam Scotland. His charity has been telling MSPs to

get their priorities right. And here in Glasgow, Blair Jenkins of the Yes

Scotland campaign and Jackie Baillie, the Labour SMP, tonight

speaking for Better Together. Thank you for joining me. First to you,

Blair Jenkins, we heard that Scotland has to east sen sthally --

essentially break free interest Westminster to deal with this.

Scotland is average compared to the other OEC dfrmt countries. -- OECD

countries. It is a big part of this debate and why people are moving to

yes, is the belief that an independent Scotland would set a

higher priority against social justice, greater equality of wealth.

As a simple starting point, we know for sure an independent Scotland,

any Government of an independent Scotland would not have introduced

the bedroom tax. It would not have happened. This is a strong that

raive from yes, that we are -- narrative from yes, that we are so

hard done by. When you look at the figures maybe it is not so hard done

by. In my lifetime, I don't recall a time when there were so many people

struggling to get by. People who feel insecure in their employment,

insecure about their children's prospects. That high level of stress

and anxiety and a feeling that you are only a pawn in a larger system

that does not care about you - these are fairly recent things. These are

features of the past 20 years in Scotland. What kind of society do we

want? What kind of values and priorities do we have? Which outcome

in September is most likely to do something about it - Holyrood or

Westminster? What kind of values do you have? You are kind of stuck

between a rock and a hard place here. You have to hook in with the

Conservatives in Better Together, yet attempting to tackle

inequalities, as we see controversial welfare reforms.

That has never been delivered because of constitutional change. It

is deliver because of political Will. Our track record when you

consider it in tackling child poverty saw a drop of 20% in

absolute child poverty under Labour, but really only a tiny drop of

something like 3%, under the SNP. The reality is the Scottish

Government and the Scottish Parliament have the powers already,

to tackle inequality, in quite a sub San shall way, but they have not

used those powers effectively. As we have been pointing out, there is a

strong narrative from the yes campaign much more will be done in

an independent Scotland to tackle inequality and you are stuck with

the Conservatives. You know, there is no evidence of that. The SNP's

own expert working group on the welfare state is saying that the

least risk is to stick with Westminster paying benefit, so there

isn't going to be the ability to vary dramatically from what is there

and I have to say, when you ask hem for the detail of that, there is

nothing there, and on top of that, if you look at how they are actually

talking about the economy, you cannot have on the one hand, a 3%

cut in corporation tax... I want to bring in Jamie Livingstone here.

Oxfam is best known for your work an broad but for almost 20 years your

organisation has been working, tackling poverty in the United

Kingdom. Can you give us some perspective here, how does the UK in

Scotland compare with the rest of the world when it comes to

enequality? I don't think we should underestimate the plight of people

living in poverty. You talk about food banks in the report and it did

a good job of highlighting the sort of choices people are having to

make. The figures show in the last year we have seen a five fold

increase in the number of people using food banks, some 77,000 Scots

are having to turn for support. That is not a situation any of us want to

be in. In terms of inequality, figures from the Office for National

Statistics back in 2012, with we have no reason to believe that is

changed, shows the top 10% are some 273 times richer than the poorest

10% in Scotland, so I think we have to not underestimate the scale of

inequality and we don't think that is just bad for people living in

poverty, we think it is bad for society as a whole, and broader than

that, even the international monetary fund suggests that the sort

of extreme inequality we are facing, is under mining economic growth, so

it is bad for the economy too. OK. I saw you nodding there Blair Jenkins,

but as Jackie Baillie was hinting there, how can you look to address

this inequality when you are promising this cut in corporation

tax? Perhaps attracting the companies here who will give their

workers low Weymouths? I am not promising a cut in corporation tax.

I would agree with what Jamie said, there are other country, societies

we can look at which get these thing right, to a better extent than the

UK does. The Scandinavian countries achieve good economic outcome, they

achieve a much more equal society, much more equality of opportunity.

We have done polling recently which we published that shows a mamty of

people in Scotland, most people believe an independent Scotland

would be a fairer society, where there were greater priority attached

to equality of opportunity and social justice. Almost half of

Labour voter voters believe an independent Scotland would be fairer

country and it is right. The SNP are the cheerleaders of yes, so that is

a fundamental policy, looking at independence for Scotland What is

done about taxation levels will about who wins the election, like a

lot t people I would be interested to see what the Labour Party in

Scotland left to their own device, the kind of policies it would put

forward. Jackie Baillie, what would the Labour Party do? The party of

the people well-known for supporting that benefit cap at Westminster. The

SNP will want to debate tax and benefit, they do not address

inequality. Getting people into work, making work pay, doing things

like that will make a fundamental difference, here we have, you know,

yes Scotland and the SNP quite clearly aligned to a 3% cut in

corporation tax, which will lead to a race to the bottom. It benefits

big business, the banks, you know, it doesn't benefit those... Can I

also say... For the SNP to want to cut corporation tax 3% more than

even George Osborne, takes us to a new low. Can I also add that here we

have a real opportunity in Scotland now, not with independence but right

now, to do something about those who are the most low paid, we could

introduce the living wage through the procurement bill going through

Parliament but the SNP have set their face against that. That would

make a huge difference to 400,000 workers in the private sector, at

least 64% of who are women. I want to bring in... Jamie back in. Jamie

Livingstone, we heard Jackie Baillie talking about tax rises, maybe not

the way forward. Wages are perhaps the key thing here, you were

criticising in your submission to the committee for being in hock to

the oil companies, but is that not just a natural part of globalisation

that we have to, that we have to pay heed to these company, and people do

have these big salaries, in these companies and other people earn

less? I think Steven Boyd was right if his report, that Governments and

politicians need to be pretty Bray and channelling vested interests but

the point we have to say is we can't just simply focus on producing more

jobs in the economy, they need to be decent jobs, they need to have

security of employment but a decent income. Jackie Baillie is right, we

immediate to move from a minimum wage to a living wage. And beyond

that, yes, we need to start challenging the vested interests, we

need to start thinking about rebalancing the books not on the

poorest people through welfare cuts but on people who can well afford

it, progressive taxation needs to be part that mix, but so too does

making sure whether you are in work or out of work you have enough money

to work with the grow of dignity with which we expect. Thank you for

that. I want to pick up another subject with you two in the front

pigeon of the Scotsman tomorrow, we have the headline now, BBC quits the

CBI over the backing for union corporation, joins exodus. First to

you Blair, is this the right thing to do for the corporation as a

former corporation man yourself? It is right. It's the only thing the

BBC could do. The BBC's role in this uniquely important moment in

Scottish history is so important, so I think the BBC, if anything has

been slow in moving but I am glad it has moved now. STV moved quickly,

but there is no way at such a moment the BBC could have stayed as part of

an organisation which is campaigning on one side. And Jackie Baillie, the

right or wrong thing to do for the BBC, leaving, suspending membership

on the 18th May to 19th September? I think the BBC has prided itself on

its independence, and I think that is important in the debate going

forward, it is a matter of gret though, that frankly there are many

different organisations operating under the yes Scotland banner, they

have yet to register with the Electoral Commission, and yet they

are spending money on campaigning for a yes vote, without being

transparent about it. OK, thank you very much. A quick look at another

paper for tomorrow. The Daily Telegraph, we have moves to end the

Queen's role as head of church. And Cameron says Boris could be given

safe Tory seat. Those are the headlines in the Telegraph. That is

all from me. Gordon is back at Monday with a special programme,

from all of us here a very good night.

Hello. The weather at the moment across the country is reverting to

type, sunny spells and scattered shower, it is April after all. Now

the showers will continue to drift up there the spine the country. Some

heavy and widespread, further west, the best of the brightness will be,

that is where we will keep the sunshine into Northern Ireland

throughout the afternoon. 12 or 13 degrees the high. Into western

Scotland. To the east here we could see more of an easterly breeze

dragging in more cloud and the odd isolated showers. Shorts into the

north of England, some heavy, widespread on the higher grouped.

Same too for the mid lands and maybe down as far as Buckinghamshire. Into

East Anglia and the south-east corner, we could see a drier slot

and the temperatures starting to climb. Maybe into the high teens

before the day is through. The best of the brightness into the

south-west and for South Wales a bit of uncertainty as to how far into

Wales those more prolific showers will develop through the day. As we

move in to Saturday, we will see a band of rain stretching its way

steadily northwards, a drier slot behind, sunny spell, scattered

showers and strong wind following in, with