07/05/2014 Newsnight Scotland

not bode well for Labour. Add to that the fact that we have almost

never had two successes, hung parliaments, and you are left

scratching your head. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: By the age of

five, pupils from disadvantaged families in Scotland are years

behind other children in basic skills.

Why are our schools continuing to fail children from poor backgrounds,

and is our record worse than other countries?

And in the latest of our interviews with leading candidates for the

European elections, we will be putting the Liberal Democrats'

George Lyon on the spot. Good evening. The family a child

comes from has more influence on how well they will do at school than the

schools they attend. For children from impoverished backgrounds, that

can be a disaster. The gap between them and their better off peers

grows throughout their school career. They are also more likely to

leave without any qualifications and earn less as a result. These

findings, from a report by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, will not

come as a surprise to anyone who takes an interest in these matters,

but they also say that we don't seem to be having much success in closing

the poverty gap, as Huw Williams reports.

School dinners in Glasgow's East End. It is an area of deprivation,

but perhaps poverty of experience matters as much as lack of cash.

Today, we want to ensure that everyone in the school has been to

the seaside. A number of years ago, a child said to me, what is the

seaside? And it suddenly struck me that yes, we have children who go to

Florida and Spain, but we have some children who do not know what the

seaside is. This time, let's do 12 divided by

three. The school does all it can to enrich pupils and fulfil their

potential. We might have the challenge of some parents who

themselves might have had poor schooling experience and whose

aspirations are limited. There is a deprivation of opportunities. In

other areas where I have worked, aspirations can sometimes be too

high, and too much pressure is put on children. We have to look at each

child as an individual. Every wee person who walks into a school is

somebody's child, and they want the best for that child. But getting the

best can be a real challenge. Like it or not, poor children do worse at

school. By age five, you are talking about a 12 month gap in vocabulary

and in problem solving skills between children from low-income

households and those from more affluent backgrounds. And does that

gap stayed throughout the school career? It actually expands as

children go through their school career. By the time they reach age

12 to 14, if we take numeracy, we have about 58% of children from

affluent backgrounds who are doing well. But only 28% of children from

low income households are performing well in numeracy. That is a huge

gap. The hard lesson is that your parents' class and income they have

more impact on your life chances than anything your teachers can do.

A child's economic background makes more difference to the child's

attainment than the kind of school they attend. So irrespective of what

schools children go to, if they come from low-income households, the

attainment is much lower. So our report is trying to provide guidance

on what every school can do to help close the attainment gap. The report

suggests action points for everyone involved in education. It says the

Scottish government should provide guidance on how to close the

attainment gap, make sure programmes have well-designed evaluation plans

so that schools and teachers can choose what will work for them, and

set up ways for robust research to be shared. It wants local

authorities to look at evidence when they spend money, to give priority

to helping disadvantaged children do better and to help schools learn

from one another. And the report says schools should make narrowing

the attainment gap a priority, and make this a key part of staff

development programmes as well as monitoring how new initiatives

actually work. If I look at West Dunbartonshire Council, they had

astonishing positive results in literacy and numeracy because they

invested in an approach that started at nursery and took you all the way

through school. That is what Labour local authorities are doing. In

Glasgow, we have nurtured classes where teachers work with smaller

groups of children and young people, who perhaps have more social

and behavioural issues to deal with before they can get to a positive

learning experience. All of that needs to be effectively evaluated,

and the Scottish government need to take a lead. The international

comparison tables published last year showed that we had improvement

in 2012 whereas the rest of the islands haven't. But we have more to

do. It confirms many things we are doing, such as making sure that

schools focus on individual young people and that we are working with

parents and working on teacher leadership. A range of things are

happening, but they make other good suggestions, so it is help, because

this is a problem we need to solve. But it is not just an education

problem, it is a problem of offer tea. Meanwhile, the tragedy is that

we seem to have got used to generations of children failing. And

that impoverishes all of us. We are talking about children who will

leave school without any qualifications, children who are

three times more likely to be in unemployment, children who are more

likely to earn lower incomes when they do get a job, and children who

could potentially become inventors, set up businesses, potentially

provide a very dynamic economy within Scotland who are not

participating in it. So if we give these children a chance, it is not

only good for them, but it is good for the country.

I'm joined in the studio by one of the authors of that Joseph Rowntree

Foundation report, Dr Sue Ellis from Strathclyde University, and from

Edinburgh by Professor Lindsay Paterson, who has done research into

education and social mobility. Sue Ellis, I found it striking that it

is not just that there are problems, but Scotland seems to be not as good

at dealing with them as other countries. Not as good as England

and Wales, which seems to be a lot better. In terms of the poverty

gap, the actual attainment in Scotland is on a par with other

countries. But the gap between rich and poor is worse in Scotland and we

don't seem to be making the sort of impact on that that we should be. I

don't quite understand. Are you saying the problem is that there is

more income inequality in Scotland, rather than anything to do with the

education system? There is a bigger gap between the attainment of

children between rich and poor in Scotland and there is in other

countries. Why is that? We don't really know. We have the

architecture in place that will allow teachers to adapt the

curriculum according to the children they teach, as you heard in the

film. We have got getting it right for every child, a programme to make

sure schools are tending to the attainment of individuals and not

just teaching the class. But we have not got the implementation advice

and the welly, if you like, to make that work in practice. That is why

our reporter talks about the people who could be making that work, the

inspectors, the teachers, local authorities, parents. At one point,

your report seems to suggest that only parental involvement can make a

difference. No, lots of things can make a difference. Parental

involvement, home-school links, preschool education, good literacy

education makes a big difference. Some types of mentoring programmes

make a difference. But the report says recent evidence suggests that

only parental involvement makes a significant contribution to closing

the attainment gap. Parental involvement makes a big

contribution, but it is the type of parental involvement that really

matters. It is not about schools sending homework home to parents to

do, because the research shows that parents from low-income households

spend as much time doing homework with children as parents from

middle-class households. But the quality of the help they can give is

not as good because their own education is not as good. So it is

about schools having strong links with the community, but it is also

about schools designing a curriculum that addresses the needs of the

children, and a knowledge which curriculum. If they don't know what

the seaside is like Tom they can't understand the things they are

reading about. Lindsay Paterson, you have looked into this issue. The

findings of this report are a stark contrast to the rhetoric we hear

from politicians about how we have a great education system and we care

about equality more than anywhere else. Yes. Although there are

variations internationally, broadly speaking, the pattern is the same

across the developed world. The major factor in explaining these

inequalities is simply poverty, both the material poverty that means some

children can't get access because their parents can't afford to buy

access to various kinds of educational gift is outside the

school, but also, as Sue Ellis said, it is the fact that people in

poverty have a poor education themselves and are therefore less

able to add to the school when doing things at home with their children.

The point she makes is that it is not poverty of expectation, it is an

inability to help your child in the way you want. Yes. The problem is

that once a parent does not have that, there is not much the school

can do to educate the parents to educate the child. That is why

expecting schools to do this is unfair and will not work. We know

from 50 years of this research that schools can only make a small

difference. Ultimately, society matters.

In Scotland we have a terrible method of setting up these

programmes would no method of evaluation. We have reports on the

NHS in Scotland are saying much the same thing. We don't have the

information? Yes, indeed. Scotland is in a far worse position than it

was before devolution. We have fewer hard statistical evidence on

educational inequality than we used to have. And England, it is much

better than the 1990s, particularly in London weather has been enormous

improvements on reducing inequality. What struck me, Sue Ellis, you make

the point somewhere in Europe ought that the new curriculum does not

only not provide you with the information that you need, but if it

tests anything, it tests the wrong things? That is just the sort of

data schools have available. We have less data than we had even 20 years

ago. But Lindsey is wrong to say that schools cannot make a

difference. The improvements in London indicate they do make a

difference and can get children out of poverty. We need intervention in

primary schools and secondary schools. The whole system needs to

work together to do that. Does not make the slightest bit of difference

if we simply don't know which techniques are effective. And even

ones that may be effective, nobody is gathering the data? Schools need

guidance about how to use policies to narrow the gap. They need data

about how their schools are doing. In lower secondary it is due to come

on stream. Primary schools do not have that data. If schools want to

know how they are doing, they have two by a commercial standardised

test. That is really expensive and it is an outgoing for every single

year. I would favour having tests free to use first Scottish schools.

But schools also need information about how to analyse those tests and

what to do, and what is likely to work. My apologise to you both. We

are out of time. Now, the latest in our series of

interviews with the leading candidates in the upcoming European

Parliament election. The Liberal Democrats face a tough fight to hold

on to their one Scottish MEP. In a moment I'll speak to their lead

candidate, George Lyon, but first here's Emma Ailes.

A taste of the strong stuff to go with some strong words from the

Scottish Liberal Democrats. A stark choice is what they say they are

giving voters, claiming they are the only party offering a clear

commitment to staying in Europe. We are unashamedly pro-European. We

want to make the case for staying in Europe because it means work. There

are 3 million jobs in Britain associated with European markets. It

means work. There are 3 million jobs in Britain associated with European

markets. Additionally important at a time the European Union is under

stress, that's in the stands up and makes the case for the European

Union. That is what the Liberal Democrats are doing. They argue

Scotland's place in Europe supports about 300,000 jobs and contributes

?1 billion a year to the Scottish budget. Like other parties, the Lib

Dems did not waste the opportunity to make mention of the referendum.

The Lib Dems currently have one man in Brussels. But with the party

suffering a slump in support since the last European elections, it is

by no means certain they will be toasting success in the upcoming

ballast. I'm joined now by George Lyon, who

tops the Liberal Democrats' list for the European Parliament elections.

There's no delicate way to put this, but you are going to lose your seat,

aren't you? We are taking a very strong and powerful message out

there. Opinion polls, and go. The only poll that counts is on the 22nd

of May. We are saying this election is about jobs and economic recovery.

We believe as a party that if we want to secure the jobs linked to

Europe, over 300,000, if we want to secure our economic recovery, we

have to stay in Britain and in the European Union. I wasn't sure if you

were going to resort to the only poll that matters. Even you would

have to admit the Liberal Democrats are not doing well in the polls. If

you are going to keep your seat, you are going to have to prove that

might improve that dramatically. Do you think realistically there is

anything you can do to turn it around? Absolutely. This poll on the

22nd of May will probably be a low turnout. We are confident we can

turn out the votes we need to secure the seat. We're working day after

day making sure that our vote will come out. Is your hope that because

perhaps Liberal Democrat voters are more engaged with Europe, that no

matter what the polls say, you can do a better job at getting your vote

out than the other parties? Absolutely. There are a whole lot of

people in Scotland who want a party to stand up and defend our position

in Europe and in the United Kingdom. Uniquely as a party we are saying we

are better off in Britain and in the European Union. And if you go with

the other parties, the Tories want to take us out of Europe. The SNP

and the Greens want to take a set of Britain. People in Scotland and the

rest of the UK would rather like a poll on whether or not to stay in

the European Union? We have legislated for that as part of the

Coalition Government. We have said quite clearly.

saying is that if you threaten our position in the EU... That comes

dangerously close to saying the electorate do not know what they are

talking about. No. If you want to secure jobs, if you want to secure

the recovery, the fastest in Europe, then we are better off in

Britain and Europe. Is your problem here, do you think, how much is it a

problem with the Liberal Democrats here and how much is it to do with

the fact you were in coalition government I don't think we have a

problem. We have a strong message. We are delivering what we promised

at Westminster. We have cut taxes. We have increased pensions and

created jobs. To be fair, I have asked Labour and the Conservatives

this question, I'm going to ask it of you. Will Scotland be a member of

the European Union if there is a Yes vote? Scotland votes yes, we have

become a third country. What happens to you if you win? Will you resign?

Clearly what will happen is we will become an accession country, a third

country applying to get back in. I suspect what will happen to me and

the other MEPs is we will become observer studies MEPs. As the

Croatian have been -- as the Croatian MPs have been. Would you

not feel honour bound to resign? No. Because I feel we will stay in

Britain and in Europe. And finally, a quick look at what'll

be making headlines tomorrow. Good Morning Scotland from six tomorrow

morning on BBC Radio Scotland will have details of a new report on

waiting times at A units, and asking why so many of this year's

Turner Prize nominees have Glasgow connections. Newsnet Scotland says

the SNP has welcomed confirmation from a UK Government Minister that

current state pensions will be safe if there's a Yes vote. And a new

edition of the online magazine the Scottish Review includes analysis of

what the rise of UKIP might mean for Scotland.

That's all from me. More news is always on BBC Scotland's website.

Goodnight.