09/06/2011 Newsnight


09/06/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. The coalition is criticised by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Has he overstepped the mark?


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Transcript


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This programme contains strong language.

:00:05.:00:09.

What a difference day makes. Tonight, following a Newsnight

:00:10.:00:13.

investigation, the Crown Prosecution Service has launched an

:00:13.:00:17.

independent inquiry into the Mark Kennedy undercover cop case.

:00:17.:00:21.

This time last night I revealed evidence that showed the CPS had

:00:21.:00:25.

failed to disclose information they held about the undercover policeman

:00:25.:00:29.

at a criminal trial. This vital information could have prevented

:00:29.:00:36.

the convictions of 20 environmental campaigners. So was it incompetence

:00:36.:00:39.

other a deliberate attempt to conceal. We have a reaction from

:00:39.:00:44.

the head of the CPS, Kier Starmer. I have decided to set up an

:00:44.:00:48.

independent inquiry, headed up by a senior legal figure, to work in

:00:48.:00:52.

tandem with the IPCC investigation. The Archbishop of Canterbury

:00:52.:00:55.

preaches on politics, a stinging attack on raft of Government

:00:55.:00:58.

policies that he says nobody voted for any way. Tonight, the

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Government returns fire. All I'm saying to the Archbishop

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today is you are more than welcome to tell me in secret and public

:01:06.:01:10.

that I need to modify certain things, please don't come and tell

:01:10.:01:14.

me that what I am doing some how is setting out to punish people.

:01:14.:01:18.

the Arab Spring melts into summer, we have been to meet student who is

:01:18.:01:21.

feel their voices alone are not enough.

:01:21.:01:26.

I have come to the Gaza strip, one of the most enclosed societies on

:01:26.:01:31.

earth. To find out what freedom the Arab Spring can bring to

:01:31.:01:41.
:01:41.:01:43.

Palestinians here. Good evening, the strange case of the

:01:43.:01:46.

environmentalist, the undercover police officer, and the attack on a

:01:46.:01:51.

power station that never actually took place has already given rise

:01:51.:01:58.

to seven distinct inquiries, today the number rose to eight, when the

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Director of Public Prosecutions called for a senior judge to

:02:01.:02:03.

investigate evidence, first revealed on this programme last

:02:03.:02:08.

night, that the Crown Prosecution Service had misled the courts and

:02:08.:02:14.

broken its own rules. Richard Watson who has pursued this

:02:14.:02:19.

story from the start is with us? is one of the rare journalistic

:02:19.:02:24.

moments where you can see cause and effect. The story concerns 26

:02:24.:02:27.

environmental campaigner who is were due to take environmental

:02:27.:02:31.

action at Radcliffe on soar power station in the East Midlands -

:02:31.:02:39.

Radcliffe on sore power station in the East Midlands. The role of Mark

:02:39.:02:44.

Kennedy was not known to the group, he had infill traited them and was

:02:44.:02:48.

gathering evidence at that time - infiltrated the group and was

:02:48.:02:53.

gathering evidence against them. After some insidious work by

:02:53.:02:56.

environmental campaigner, that fatally then undermined the

:02:56.:03:00.

prosecution case. The trial of the second tranche of these people, six,

:03:00.:03:04.

collapsed in January this year, immediately the CPS said that they

:03:04.:03:09.

had only just discovered this extra new information concerning the

:03:09.:03:14.

undercover activities of Mark Stone. Last night we revealed that is not

:03:14.:03:17.

the case, there were senior lawyers in the CPS discussing the

:03:17.:03:22.

sensitivites of this case back as far back as 2009. Last night on the

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programme we had the former Director of Public Prosecutions

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saying this is extremely serious, it is his pressure that we have

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seen in the CPS today. The inquiry conducted by an independent figure

:03:42.:03:49.

is much more likely to gain public confidence and get to the truth.

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And when you are looking at such a serious situation where a number of

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people might have been acquitted due to the absence of the material,

:03:58.:04:03.

you need a public inquiry. How has the CPS responded?

:04:03.:04:06.

first response was interesting, their first response was to launch

:04:06.:04:09.

an internal review inside the CPS, which they said was completed on

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the 21st March. It seems that internal review didn't uncover some

:04:15.:04:19.

crucial information about the knowledge of some CPS lawyers about

:04:19.:04:24.

the activities of Mark Stone. My colleague, Peter Marshall today,

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spoke to Kier Starmer, the director of the public prosecution, this is

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what he had to say. What I have decided today is to set up an

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independent inquiry, headed by a senior legal figure, to work in

:04:35.:04:40.

tandem with the IPCC investigation. The idea is that together they can

:04:40.:04:46.

look at the conduct of the police and the CPS together, accessing all

:04:46.:04:50.

the same material and share their findings. Who has primacy at the

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end, when they come to the conclusion? There is no primacy,

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that is why this particular arrangement has been set up. I was

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very keen that there should be a consistent approach, and the

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conduct of both sides, the police and the CPS, should be looked at by

:05:04.:05:07.

reference to the same material. is a disturbing situation, what

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seemed to happen in your department on your watch? I'm not going to

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predetermine the conclusions. I would not have set up this

:05:15.:05:18.

arrangement if I wasn't taking the issues very seriously. This has

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been a huge long-running case, do you think the independent inquiry

:05:23.:05:27.

will find the answers for some of the critics? To give the CPS some

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credit, clearly they have moved their position from having an

:05:31.:05:34.

internal review into an individual inquiry with a senior judicial

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figure. That must be welcomed by most people. However, I think the

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defence lawyers and the campaigners themselves, will be unhappy with

:05:40.:05:45.

this. There have been a shrew of inquiries, really. And what defence

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lawyers like Mike Schwarz, who is representing these campaigners says,

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is that there should be one overarching inquiry. One gets the

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impression that the authorities are making it up as they go along. This

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is on my last count the seventh or eighth inquiry set up. What is

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needed is a single organisation with power teeth in respect of the

:06:05.:06:09.

public, looking independently and authoritatively at all of the

:06:09.:06:12.

issues. The issues including things like the operation and

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accountability of undercover police officers. Disclosure by the police

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and the CPS, looking at all of these issues. We have such a bod he

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yoo, the Court of Appeal looking at the safety of the - body, the Court

:06:23.:06:31.

of Appeal looking at the safety of the convictions, the 26 activists

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convicted last year. I'm joined by my guest, one of the defendants in

:06:35.:06:40.

the case, Oliver Knowles, whose case collapsed when the undercover

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cop's evidence came to light. Oliver Knowles, you must be pretty

:06:44.:06:52.

pleased with what's happening to? I'm not, - today. I'm not, another

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day another inquiry, this is number eight. The problem is each of the

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inquires is looking at an isolated component of the bigger picture. We

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don't have a single inquiry that is looking at the breath of the story,

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the undercover police investigation, the role of PC Kennedy, now the

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role of the CPS. I think we need that. Up until yesterday we had

:07:14.:07:18.

police investigating police, we had the Crown Prosecution Service

:07:18.:07:22.

investigating the Crown Prosecution Service, we need an overarching

:07:22.:07:26.

inquiry that gives us all those answers. This is an independent

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inquiry announced by Kier Starmer a very distinguished judge will take

:07:29.:07:33.

it on. Are you not prejudging it to say it is not enough? There are so

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many serious issues down on the table, the allegations in the last

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couple of days that the Crown Prosecution Service have been

:07:39.:07:43.

suppressing evidence is part of that. But there are many other

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serious issues. We have police officers who are routinely using

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sex to solicit information from activists, we have police officers

:07:52.:07:57.

alleged to have acted as agent provokeures. We have police

:07:57.:08:05.

officers - provocatures, we have police officers working for private

:08:05.:08:08.

investigation companies and selling that to corporations. There are a

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huge range of issues. We don't have somebody stepping back and looking

:08:16.:08:22.

at the information. You were minister of policing 2006-2008, how

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do you responded to to the inquiry? I understand the problem about

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inquiryitis, and so many reviews. What has happened in this case is

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serious enough that it is right that the CPS have given it to an

:08:35.:08:41.

independent legal figure, I think he said, we shall see, and deals

:08:41.:08:46.

with the complexties and what went wrong with the specific case. I

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equally agree there should be a wider look at, I'm not sure of the

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vehicle that looks at lessons from the specifics in this case, larger

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lessons around undercover policing generally and how that is

:08:58.:09:02.

controlled. Even Hugh Ord said in February that ACPO should no longer

:09:02.:09:09.

do it, or senior officers shouldn't do it on a retrospective basis, the

:09:09.:09:12.

judges should sanction the operations in the first place.

:09:12.:09:15.

was wrong with the operation, there were plenty of operations under

:09:15.:09:22.

your watch. This particular unit its funding doubled under your

:09:22.:09:27.

leading? Much of that would have been in areas not linked to the

:09:27.:09:34.

sort of protests that Oliver was involved in. There needs to be a

:09:34.:09:38.

real debate, I think, almost about the politics of policing and the

:09:38.:09:42.

politics of protest, that says when is it appropriate to have

:09:42.:09:46.

undercover police work, there are cases when it would be entirely

:09:46.:09:49.

appropriate. We heard there were vast amounts of money being wasted

:09:49.:09:53.

in those operations? Maybe longer term, all that needs to look at, or

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needs looking at I don't really know the ins and outs of the

:09:57.:10:04.

details. We need to sort out this case. We need to have proper

:10:04.:10:09.

protocols and transparn sis in place about undercovering policing,

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and a wider approach to politics and policing.

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This seems to get out of hand including the period when you were

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a minister. I accept that. What I'm saying is these are operational

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matters and matters for the CPS, none of these matters should be

:10:24.:10:29.

matters that ministers should be involved in at all. That way lies

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madness, which is why the crime and policing commission is a bad idea,

:10:34.:10:44.
:10:44.:10:46.

bonkers. Getting to the Centre of confidence, and conspiracy is an

:10:46.:10:50.

issue, these are real concerns about democracy, they need

:10:50.:10:54.

addressing. It is all around case that didn't result in anyone going

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to prison, it was around an attack on a power station that didn't

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actually happen. Oliver, an enormous amount of public money

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will be spent on this case, do you think we have got it out of hand

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and are reading too much into it? That is the core question here.

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Quet is, to what extent was this operation - quite, to what extent

:11:13.:11:18.

was this operation proportional, on whose remit? The action if it had

:11:18.:11:22.

gone ahead would have certainly stopped carbon emissions, it would

:11:22.:11:27.

have cost large corporation some money, but it was, at so no point,

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a threat to the public. Millions of millions of pounds, and thousands

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of hours of policeman power was spent looking into this operation.

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To what end? That is why I talk p the politics of protest. He were

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going to, at some stage, break the law. It is not for me or you to

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determine what laws should be broken or otherwise, but there are

:11:48.:11:50.

fundamental elements to the policing of it and the

:11:50.:11:54.

proportionality of it. If people start to worry that this is common

:11:54.:11:57.

practice, the CPS now working ever more closely with the police, that

:11:57.:12:01.

has been part of the policy to work more closely s that the ultimate

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danger of this, that people will not trust what the CPS is doing,

:12:05.:12:09.

what the police is doing what they are doing together? It chips away

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at the integrity and objectivity of the CPS and the police and,

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ultimately, the right to protest, which is why I agree there should

:12:17.:12:23.

be a wider debate, even around whether Kennedy, how much he was

:12:23.:12:32.

provoking and having a provocateur role. You think that Kier Starmer's

:12:32.:12:37.

position is rather safe, you think, it is rather late to come to this

:12:37.:12:41.

and there are serious allegations to this? I won't prejudge the

:12:41.:12:43.

review, let's have the independent review and see what it does and see

:12:43.:12:48.

what it does to the CPS internal processes. This is why we need the

:12:48.:12:54.

bigger overarching inquiry. It starts the Court of Appeal, it has

:12:54.:13:01.

to. We have 20 activists who have conviction that is may not be safe.

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I'm sure a lot more public money will be spent.

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Tell us how you really feel, Archbishop. Today the head of the

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Church of England said the Government of this country was

:13:09.:13:12.

scaring people with radical long- term policies which nobody voted

:13:12.:13:15.

for, raising questions about the nature of our democracy.

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That's not the first time that a sitting Government has taken brick

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bats from the Clergy, on this occasion the Government in question

:13:22.:13:30.

has come out fighting. It has been a bit of a hellish week

:13:30.:13:35.

for the Government. Backtracking on NHS reforms and on prison sentences,

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the last thing they expected...was damation from the church (thunder

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claps) As guest editor of the New Statesman, the Archbishop of

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Canterbury points to bafflement and indignation over health care

:13:51.:13:55.

reforms, he says we are being committed to radical, long-term

:13:55.:13:58.

policies, for which no-one voted. The Prime Minister's response was,

:13:58.:14:04.

well, dam you too. The darpblg Bishop of Canterbury

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should be entirely - the Archbishop of Canterbury should be entirely

:14:07.:14:12.

free to express his views. I can say I entirely disagree with the

:14:12.:14:17.

issues he has expressed, particularly on debt, welfare and

:14:17.:14:22.

education. This found a February of the Conservative Christian

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fellowship saying that the Archbishop needs to make sure

:14:27.:14:34.

Anglicanism needs to remain there. It is important that the leader of

:14:34.:14:39.

a flock that is in decline not to create more disunity. He should

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only speak on a subject if he's really certain of his argument. I'm

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afraid this is a little bit typical of the Archbishop of Canterbury, it

:14:47.:14:50.

is quite academic, hard to understand some of the points he's

:14:50.:14:54.

making, yet he has generate add lot of controversy, I think with very

:14:54.:14:58.

little gain. Let's example some of the

:14:58.:15:01.

Archbishop's proclaimations in greater detail. Politicians don't

:15:01.:15:06.

really treat their manifestos as tablets of stone, often in

:15:06.:15:09.

Government policies that were proposed at the election time can

:15:09.:15:13.

be ditched, others produced. But is there really any basis for him to

:15:13.:15:16.

say that no-one voted for the current health and education

:15:16.:15:22.

reforms. It is true that the specific

:15:22.:15:25.

reforms for the NHS were in neither manifesto, although the

:15:25.:15:28.

Conservatives did mention a reform plan that would give every patient

:15:28.:15:33.

the power to choose any health care provider that meets NHS standards

:15:33.:15:35.

and the Liberal Democrats said Primary Care Trusts would be

:15:35.:15:39.

replaced. As for education, the Liberal Democrats proposed a pupil

:15:39.:15:43.

premium and the Conservatives put forward a plan for the schools

:15:43.:15:47.

revolution. Neither manifesto said that tuition fees would go up.

:15:47.:15:51.

With neither party able to command a majority on their own, the bigger

:15:51.:15:54.

question is do they have a man died? It is interesting when we

:15:54.:15:59.

look at the vote share last year and back in 2005, actually the

:15:59.:16:01.

Conservatives received a greater proportion of the national vote in

:16:01.:16:05.

2010, than the Labour Government in 2005, the coalition Government have

:16:05.:16:08.

had to make compromises, and actually they have had to give in

:16:08.:16:11.

both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, and now actually

:16:11.:16:15.

the public need to hold the Government accountable to the

:16:15.:16:18.

coalition agreement, rather than what they said in the manifestos.

:16:18.:16:21.

When you are looking at mandate before the general election,

:16:21.:16:24.

particularly in our country, we haven't had a coalition since the

:16:24.:16:28.

1920s, then you look at one party, you don't look at what the

:16:28.:16:34.

combination might be. So we're in a new game and situation. It is not

:16:34.:16:38.

very far between the Archbishop's residence here at Lambeth Palace

:16:38.:16:41.

and the politicians at Westminster. You could say it is little more

:16:41.:16:44.

than shouting distance away. But sometimes it seems as though there

:16:44.:16:49.

is a much bigger gulf between church and state. In this week's

:16:49.:16:53.

New Statesman, one of the guest contributors is none another than

:16:53.:16:56.

the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, but apparently

:16:56.:17:00.

he didn't know just how critical the guest editor was going to be.

:17:00.:17:03.

Downing Street apparently weren't told about the Archbishop's

:17:03.:17:06.

comments until yesterday. But compared to previous spats between

:17:06.:17:10.

the Government and the Church of England, there is far less fire and

:17:10.:17:14.

brimstone in this particular encounter. In 1985, during Mrs

:17:14.:17:18.

Thatcher's second term, the then Archbishop of antbury, Robert

:17:18.:17:24.

Runcie, published Faith in the City. Setting out 23 recommended details

:17:24.:17:27.

to Government, more a mini- manifesto than a work of scripture,

:17:27.:17:32.

it called for higher child benefit payments, more council housing and

:17:32.:17:37.

assisting families in poverty without stigma. The current

:17:37.:17:40.

Archbishop of Canterbury chides Labour for not giving a full

:17:40.:17:44.

account of what they would do differently. His criticism of the

:17:44.:17:47.

Big Brother society is based as much on presentation as policy,

:17:47.:17:52.

calling the phrase itself "painfully tale". I support The Big

:17:52.:17:55.

Idea society as an intellectual project, it is important for the

:17:55.:17:58.

Prime Minister to realise people don't get it still, despite a

:17:58.:18:03.

number of relaunches and a number of prime ministerial speeches. I

:18:03.:18:06.

would like the Government to actually talk much more about the

:18:06.:18:10.

things very concrete things that it is going to help people out of

:18:10.:18:15.

poverty. But on welfare reform, the Archbishop is more outspoken,

:18:15.:18:25.
:18:25.:18:27.

I note Iain Duncan Smith is saying today he's not talking about the

:18:27.:18:31.

deffering or undeserving poor. A lot of commentary coming from the

:18:31.:18:34.

Conservative Party, particularly from the backbenches, and a variety

:18:34.:18:38.

of media sources close to the current Government, are actually

:18:38.:18:42.

saying exactly those things, and that does start to create

:18:42.:18:48.

divergence and conflict within society, which is not constructive.

:18:48.:18:54.

Westminster's garage goils are supposed to ward off evil spirits,

:18:54.:18:58.

but the Government mighting comprising ways of keeping a man of

:18:58.:19:02.

the cloth in the distance while taking painful decisions.

:19:02.:19:05.

I caught up with the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan

:19:05.:19:15.
:19:15.:19:15.

Smith, and asked him how he reacted to the Archbishop's remarks. Are

:19:16.:19:19.

you worried the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks this Government

:19:19.:19:22.

lacks legitimacy? I would be worried he made the statement, I

:19:22.:19:26.

think he's wrong. He's allowed to stay what he wants. He's wrong

:19:26.:19:29.

about that. The point about democracy is you accept what the

:19:29.:19:32.

public decide at the ballot box, they decided they didn't want any

:19:32.:19:36.

one of the three parties that were the main parties, they chose the

:19:36.:19:38.

Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats to form a coalition.

:19:38.:19:43.

That's what we have done. We are proceeding on the bays of our

:19:43.:19:47.

manifestos merged - basis of our manifestos merged together with

:19:47.:19:51.

some things brought in. He doesn't think it is reasonable. He says the

:19:51.:19:54.

widespread suspicion that this has been done fortuneistic and money-

:19:54.:20:02.

saving reasons allows many to dismiss what there is of a

:20:02.:20:06.

manifesto. The Government needs to hear how much plain fear there is

:20:06.:20:10.

around such questions at present. It is not helped by the quiet

:20:10.:20:13.

resurgeonence of the seductive language and deserving and

:20:13.:20:17.

undeserving poor. Does it bother you that the Archbishop of

:20:17.:20:19.

Canterbury says this about your Government? It doesn't, I don't

:20:19.:20:23.

agree with him in his final conclusions. I would ask him what

:20:23.:20:27.

he really thinks democracy is all about, with whether or not at the

:20:27.:20:30.

ballot box at the time of the election was set in concrete,

:20:30.:20:37.

nothing changes when events change. When you see the circumstances of a

:20:37.:20:41.

problem are when they unfold in Government you do nothing because

:20:41.:20:44.

you didn't spell it out at the time of an election. Democracy and life

:20:44.:20:48.

is not, that it may be like that in church, but it is not like that in

:20:48.:20:51.

Government. Do you think there is such a thing that there is a

:20:51.:20:55.

deserving or undeserving poor? have never used that language, I

:20:55.:20:59.

don't believe in, that I believe a system we have created, that has

:20:59.:21:02.

become so complex and counter- productive, that rewards bad

:21:02.:21:06.

behaviour, and penalises people who try, those want to go get back to

:21:06.:21:10.

work. What is bad behaviour, I'm interested, if you are looking it

:21:10.:21:13.

cuts you are introducing, the benefit cap, it looks like bad

:21:13.:21:16.

behaviour is having a lot of kids, they are being penalised for having

:21:16.:21:20.

a lot of kids? The system now, if you want to go back to work, even

:21:20.:21:24.

as a lone parent if you go back, the only point of work you could

:21:24.:21:27.

enter in part-time work is 16 hours, the last Government said that was

:21:27.:21:31.

the only bit they would support you on. If you did hours more or less

:21:31.:21:35.

you will lose at rates of 97p in the pound for every pound you earn.

:21:35.:21:40.

What a disincentive to work your way out of problems. By the way you

:21:40.:21:44.

might need ten hours not 16 hours because you have caring

:21:44.:21:47.

responsibility. The system we have set is so complex because it takes

:21:47.:21:50.

money away from people that need to have more money, secondly, they

:21:50.:21:54.

don't understand the system. The point I am a making here is that

:21:54.:21:57.

system penalises the people when they try to do the right thing.

:21:57.:22:00.

That is a negative point. On the point of the cap, which you asked

:22:00.:22:05.

about, which I will come back to, it is simply establish ago very

:22:05.:22:09.

simple point. Tax-payers need a bit - establishing a simple point. Tax-

:22:09.:22:14.

payers need fairness too. People in my constituency work for fairly low

:22:14.:22:19.

incomes, they get up early and commute long distance, they work

:22:19.:22:23.

hard, they don't want to see people on benefits in places and in houses

:22:23.:22:26.

they could never afford if they were back in work. They say there

:22:26.:22:29.

is a fairness to say average earnings is a reasonable point to

:22:29.:22:34.

say nobody should be earning on benefits more than average earnings,

:22:34.:22:39.

more than I am earning working hard on low earnings. It seems as if you

:22:39.:22:43.

are punishing people who are unemployed, and those who have

:22:43.:22:46.

children, many Christians might be worried that your punishing

:22:46.:22:49.

children in the families? I don't believe we are, all the

:22:49.:22:52.

arrangements we have made for the housing benefit changes, we will

:22:52.:22:55.

help people where they have to move and change. That is a process that

:22:55.:22:59.

we will go through. The key point I want to make about the cap, which

:22:59.:23:03.

is simply to say, look, this point about fairness cuts both ways, both

:23:03.:23:09.

those on benefits wrecksed into to support - need to support and help

:23:09.:23:12.

them, we are doing that with the reforms to the benefits system and

:23:12.:23:16.

the back to work programme. The key thing is, however, we recognise

:23:16.:23:20.

tax-payers, paying this money, often on average are on low

:23:20.:23:23.

earnings themselves, want to recognise that people on benefits

:23:23.:23:26.

aren't in a position to be able to live a life on a higher level of

:23:26.:23:30.

income than they get. It is interesting you say that, in the

:23:30.:23:33.

past you are a committed Christian, you have spoken about this issue,

:23:33.:23:37.

with the sense of someone who actually saw it also as a moral

:23:37.:23:40.

obligation to try to bring people out of dependency, is that right,

:23:40.:23:46.

that you actually feel it is partly a moral duty to bring people out of

:23:46.:23:49.

poverty and dependency on benefits? It is a personal commitment of mine

:23:49.:23:53.

to make sure that the system I reform is a system that benefits

:23:53.:23:56.

the poorest in society. The Universal Credit that we are

:23:56.:24:00.

bringing forward, 85% of the gains will go to the bottom 40% in

:24:00.:24:03.

society, it will lift nearly a million people out of poverty as a

:24:03.:24:07.

result of the benefit changes. policies do you point to in the

:24:08.:24:10.

Government that show that this is a Government that a Christian can

:24:10.:24:14.

support, what kind of policies would you point to? I have never

:24:14.:24:17.

gone after a Christian vote in my life, I don't intend to start now,

:24:17.:24:22.

I go after people's rational. hear the Archbishop of Canterbury,

:24:22.:24:26.

and ask is this a Government at odds with the main religion of this

:24:26.:24:30.

country, how would you reassure them? It isn't about, that he's

:24:30.:24:33.

wrong, because whether you are a Christian or not a Christian.

:24:33.:24:35.

should ask yourself a simple question, is it fair that somebody

:24:36.:24:39.

who wants to try to do the right thing, says to me, which they do

:24:39.:24:43.

all the time, it is not worth my while entering the world of work

:24:43.:24:47.

because I get penalised if I do, is it right to have families, three

:24:47.:24:50.

and four generations right now who have never held a job in their

:24:50.:24:53.

lives. And children are growing up for the first time, in my

:24:53.:24:57.

recognition, never believing they will outdo their parents in their

:24:57.:25:00.

future careers, this is an absurdity. This is the moral point.

:25:00.:25:03.

If people want to talk about morality, I asked the question to

:25:03.:25:08.

the Archbishop, why has he not said that this system is fundamentally

:25:08.:25:11.

broken, it is in his standpoint immoral to trap people in this

:25:11.:25:16.

position. He should be out speaking about this, alongside us, yes, to

:25:16.:25:20.

say, watch what you are doing here, be careful of what you are doing

:25:20.:25:24.

here, I fully accept, we are open to, that that is what I and the

:25:24.:25:28.

Liberal Democrats debate every day, are we being too hard here, nobody

:25:28.:25:34.

is trying to punish anybody. What we are trying to do is create

:25:34.:25:37.

finally system that rewards those that make the effort and assists

:25:37.:25:40.

those when they did, that is not here today.

:25:40.:25:44.

He just don't get t the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't get morality?

:25:44.:25:48.

I don't know whether he gets morality or not, he's the bishop

:25:48.:25:52.

and more or less there. You are making a moral point about the

:25:52.:25:58.

society? The big point here, if you believe in it you can say it is a

:25:58.:26:01.

moral practice, if not it is practical purpose, the two come

:26:01.:26:05.

together, the practical and moral purpose is this we can't go on

:26:05.:26:09.

having five million people and growing in number, trapped on

:26:09.:26:12.

welfare dependency, putting Ngoga back into the community, sitting on

:26:12.:26:16.

begin - putting nothing back into the community. Five million people

:26:17.:26:19.

sat for ten years under the Government without any work,

:26:19.:26:22.

written off, forgotten about, never seen by anybody, this is not right.

:26:22.:26:26.

When I came in I had a purpose to change this, all I'm saying to the

:26:26.:26:31.

Archbishop today is you are more than welcome to tell me in secret

:26:31.:26:35.

or in public that I need to modify things, please don't come and tell

:26:35.:26:40.

me that what I'm doing is setting out to punish people. It is not to

:26:40.:26:43.

punish people, but to help them do the right thing for them and their

:26:43.:26:47.

families. If you want to help that group that is a purpose about their

:26:47.:26:50.

salvation in a general sense, getting them through to work to

:26:50.:26:53.

have kids with aspiration, the answer is to work to change the

:26:53.:26:56.

system so they have a shot again, like they might have done 30 years

:26:56.:27:01.

ago, at a life that I would expect my children to live, they have a

:27:02.:27:06.

shot at that. Thank you very much. We are going to go back to the

:27:06.:27:09.

issues of religion and politics in a minute. First something

:27:09.:27:13.

completely different. After four years of turbulent rule in the Gaza

:27:13.:27:18.

strip, the Islamic militant group Hamas said this week it was

:27:18.:27:21.

considering not participating in future Government. The hope is in

:27:21.:27:25.

doing so it might help end Gaza's state of miserable isolation from

:27:25.:27:29.

the rest of the region and the world. The winds of Chiang Mai be

:27:29.:27:33.

sweeping the Middle East, but in Gaza, as usual, the direction of

:27:33.:27:37.

change is harder to read. We have been there to find out what the

:27:37.:27:44.

Arab Spring has meant for its increasingly restless population.

:27:44.:27:50.

The last few scruby miles of Egypt, the last memorial to a revolt

:27:50.:27:54.

resonating throughout the Arab world. Five hours out of Cairo, I

:27:54.:27:59.

have reached the once closed border with Gaza. Now open, Egypt says, in

:27:59.:28:05.

the spirit of democracy. Revolutions lapping at the gates of

:28:05.:28:09.

Gaza, a closed society, in several senses. I'm going through to see

:28:09.:28:19.

what changes the Arab Spring is bringing on the other side.

:28:19.:28:24.

Beyond a road through hopelessness. The sea a wall on one side, Israel

:28:24.:28:30.

a wall on the other. Egyptian youth couldn't move politically,

:28:30.:28:35.

Palestinian youth can't move at all. For all their engine power.

:28:35.:28:40.

TRANSLATION: I wish I could drive somewhere on my bike or in my car,

:28:40.:28:50.

like normal people in any other country. But we are besieged here.

:28:50.:28:56.

Surreal though it seems, you can learn to dance in Gaza. But now, by

:28:56.:29:03.

order of its Islamist rulers, Hamas, only in single-sex groups. Though,

:29:03.:29:07.

traditionally, boys and girls perform these steps together.

:29:07.:29:17.
:29:17.:29:19.

feel sad, of course, depressed that I can't have my freedom in my own

:29:19.:29:24.

country. The Government sputing pressure on us and not allowing us

:29:25.:29:31.

to do what we love to do. Now, she has joined a group of

:29:31.:29:35.

students whose frustration finally boiled over a few months ago. In a

:29:35.:29:40.

Facebook manifesto, they cursed all the forces imprisoning them.

:29:40.:29:48.

said lock Hamas, lock Israel, lock all of it. The faction is

:29:48.:29:53.

controlling us, is trying to put every single person to be the same

:29:53.:29:57.

thing, they are trying to look at a girl like me without putting on the

:29:57.:30:01.

hijab, that is not acceptable. Under the cover saying we come from

:30:01.:30:06.

an Islamic perspective and everything, we are very

:30:06.:30:09.

conservative society, they have really kind of changed everything,

:30:09.:30:14.

and like 180 degrees changed everything. You used to look around

:30:14.:30:19.

you and see if somebody is watching you and listening you to see if

:30:19.:30:23.

something is happening. We like to stay silent, not to talk not to

:30:23.:30:26.

even think. The biggest problem which was made by the division in

:30:26.:30:34.

the last four years, is the culture of hating. The brother, if he is

:30:34.:30:39.

from Fatah and his brother from ham marks he should hate him. That is a

:30:39.:30:44.

big social problem. I didn't know, if I am young I'm not accepted, no

:30:44.:30:48.

matter what it is that I have to offer, it is not accepted. This is

:30:48.:30:53.

exactly what we revolt against. The same demand for self-

:30:53.:30:57.

determination by an ever-younger population, fuelled all the Arab

:30:57.:31:01.

uprisings. But in Gaza, it is different. They have got Israel to

:31:01.:31:08.

contend with as well as their own rulers. Any revolt here cannot be

:31:08.:31:13.

the same as in other Arab countries, for the simple reason, that this

:31:13.:31:17.

isn't an independent state. Palestinians who want change,

:31:17.:31:23.

particularly in Gaza, feel they are stuck within a series of prisons,

:31:23.:31:27.

one closed box after another. So even if they overcame the social

:31:27.:31:31.

and political restrictions imposed by their own leaders, they would

:31:31.:31:36.

still be trapped by the wider conflict in the region. That's

:31:36.:31:42.

something that Arab people power alone can't easily solve.

:31:42.:31:47.

At lost Palestinians could stop fighting one another. Confinement

:31:47.:31:52.

has bred bitter factionalism. The Islamists of Hamas, with their

:31:52.:31:56.

green banner, more interested, according to some, in crushing

:31:56.:32:00.

their fine rivals and if, Fatah, than achieving Palestinian

:32:00.:32:04.

liberation. We are sick of political games. The ridiculous

:32:05.:32:11.

game between Fatah and Hamas, that game has ruined every single

:32:11.:32:15.

Palestinian life. Every one of us here lost something. Three months

:32:15.:32:22.

ago, Roba wrote Palestine" on her face, and helped bring thousands on

:32:22.:32:27.

to the streets to call for unity among the factions. Independent

:32:27.:32:31.

protests in Gaza are very rare, they were beaten by police. Two

:32:31.:32:39.

months later, the yellow flag of Fatah, banned for the two years,

:32:39.:32:44.

appeared over Gaza. The result of political weakness on both sides

:32:44.:32:50.

they came together, the as a result of public pressure. According to

:32:50.:32:58.

this Hamas official, it could lead to a soothing of the attitude to

:32:58.:33:03.

Israel. Hamas are the resistance. My personal opinion is we have to

:33:03.:33:06.

work together. We should not now say this is the option of Hamas,

:33:06.:33:12.

this is the option of Fatah. We have to make a new strategy, mixing

:33:12.:33:16.

the political action with the resistance.

:33:16.:33:21.

If that idea flies, there could be hope for economic recovery in Gaza.

:33:21.:33:28.

Many promises of foreign aid, to turn this clip top into a pleasant

:33:28.:33:32.

promenade, have been delayed by Hamas's refusal to deal with Israel.

:33:32.:33:35.

The position of the international community is inbetween two things,

:33:35.:33:42.

one to help the Palestinian, and doesn't allow 0 to work with Hamas

:33:42.:33:46.

the Government in Gaza. The Palestinian, Hamas and BA are

:33:46.:33:52.

getting united again, and I do believe that the committee, America

:33:52.:33:57.

and Israel, will not have any reason not to co-operate with them.

:33:57.:34:02.

Already Palestinian sand is being mixed with Israeli gravel and

:34:02.:34:08.

cement to rebuild the strip. An inspector checks the concrete goes

:34:08.:34:13.

to only internationally run projects, Israel insists Hamas must

:34:13.:34:16.

not benefit. What the owner wants now is economic common sense will

:34:16.:34:20.

trump politics on both sides. You would be happy to recognise Israel

:34:20.:34:28.

as a state? TRANSLATION: No-one on earth denies the existence of the

:34:28.:34:32.

Israelis and the Palestinians. you think that the Hamas policy is

:34:32.:34:41.

going nowhere? REPORTER: When big politicians sit together, and they

:34:41.:34:49.

have the will to end problems, they will end it in ten minutes.

:34:49.:34:54.

To reflect as broader desire on the streets, now change is in the air

:34:54.:34:57.

for less ideology, and more pragmatisim.

:34:57.:35:03.

But this big man, the top Hamas leader in Gaza, seems as hardline

:35:04.:35:08.

as ever. Really we are not a negotiating regime. We have an

:35:08.:35:14.

alternative, we believe that in self-defence, in defending ourself,

:35:14.:35:21.

against the occupation, we can succeed to eliminate the occupation.

:35:21.:35:31.
:35:31.:35:32.

Meanwhile, with interfactional hatred here, burnt into masonry and

:35:32.:35:39.

memory, nobody knows what will happen. Hamas bullets killed this

:35:39.:35:42.

man's brother, Abu Maher. TRANSLATION: In the coming days we

:35:42.:35:46.

will see if Hamas are serious or not, we will have to judge by

:35:46.:35:51.

whatever real action we see on the ground.

:35:51.:35:57.

On the ground, they are dancing. Within range of Israeli guns. This

:35:57.:36:02.

time, boys only. It is one event in day of protests all around Israel's

:36:02.:36:08.

borders, to mark the anniversary of Arab defeat, in the Six-Day War of

:36:08.:36:15.

1967. For Gaza's young activists, marches like this are part of the

:36:15.:36:19.

Palestinian Spring. But the unity deal has actually reduced the

:36:19.:36:25.

impact of this one, the main factions agreed beforehand, to

:36:25.:36:28.

limit numbers to avoid risks casualties. The small size of the

:36:28.:36:32.

demonstration, shows, perhaps, that Palestinian unity is working, but

:36:32.:36:37.

it is also a sign of how little ordinary people can achieve here.

:36:38.:36:42.

Some of the angry youths, who have been questioned, or arrested, by

:36:43.:36:46.

Hamas officials over their actism, are now pessimistic about the

:36:46.:36:50.

chances of real change here. really disappointed because

:36:50.:36:54.

Palestinians do want to come out. But they are afraid of the

:36:54.:36:57.

political factions. They are afraid of the Israelis, because everyone

:36:57.:37:02.

is working against us. As Arab Spring lengthens into Arab summer,

:37:02.:37:10.

the beach remains the only window in what so many Gazaians feel is

:37:10.:37:12.

their prison. Ripples from elsewhere in the Middle East have

:37:12.:37:18.

reached here, but the young still aren't in charge of their own

:37:18.:37:27.

desknee, and peace is no closer, without it, despite the idealism, a

:37:27.:37:32.

new generation may grow up with closed mind, the Mediterranean the

:37:32.:37:34.

broadest horizon they can ever grasp.

:37:34.:37:37.

As we were discussing earlier, the Archbishop of Canterbury has

:37:38.:37:41.

strayed once more into politic. In response we have heard not just

:37:41.:37:44.

outrage from ministers, but some traffic in the other direction w

:37:44.:37:47.

saugs that the Government has right on its - with the suggestion that

:37:48.:37:52.

the Government has right on its side. It turns to the vexed issue

:37:52.:37:57.

between religion and politics, which glib Newsnight presenters

:37:57.:38:02.

have just summarised thus, God, how would he vote?

:38:02.:38:07.

God can be hard to spot in the political landscape of modern

:38:07.:38:12.

Britain, Tony Blair was famously coy about his beliefs while still

:38:12.:38:16.

in Number Ten, David Cameron admits that his faith grows hotter and

:38:16.:38:21.

colder by moments and is not the rock it should be. Ed Miliband is

:38:21.:38:25.

even less effusive when it comes to the divine. So you don't believe in

:38:25.:38:29.

God? I don't believe in God, no, I have great respect for those people

:38:29.:38:32.

who do. However little politicians may wish

:38:33.:38:36.

to talk about him, his representatives on earth, do like

:38:36.:38:40.

to talk about politic. This week the Archbishop of Canterbury's

:38:40.:38:43.

targets were mainly coalition cuts in the big society, but in the past

:38:43.:38:48.

he has sounded off about the war in Iraq, the killing of Osama Bin

:38:48.:38:53.

Laden, bankers and Sharia Law. Inside parliament, those MPs who do

:38:53.:38:58.

profess to have some kind of faith, can be found on both sides of the

:38:58.:39:02.

chamber, apparently using their creed to guide them in debate about

:39:02.:39:06.

stem cell research, abortion and foreign intervention. How can one

:39:06.:39:09.

faith produce so many different political convictions, and whose

:39:10.:39:17.

side f any, is God really on? Well joining me in the studio are

:39:17.:39:22.

two MPs with religious conviction, from Labour, Ben Bradshaw, and from

:39:22.:39:25.

the Conservative Party party, Nadine Dorries. What is interesting

:39:25.:39:29.

to people, partly from this debate, and there is a broader issue, is

:39:29.:39:33.

how you can believe in the same faith but actually think it takes

:39:33.:39:37.

you in a completely different political direction, Ben Bradshaw,

:39:37.:39:42.

you're a practising Anglican, how does your religion take you to your

:39:42.:39:46.

political philosophy? It would be ludicrous to suggest all Christians

:39:46.:39:48.

have to be Conservatives or Labour or Liberal Democrats there are

:39:48.:39:52.

different parties within the church, there are people within the church

:39:52.:39:57.

who put more emphasis on what Nadine does, sexual immorality and

:39:57.:40:01.

abortion, others put it on social teaching and economic justice,

:40:01.:40:04.

Rowan belongs to that category of Christian, it is a strong tradition

:40:04.:40:09.

in the Labour movement. You say you chose Labour largely or partly

:40:09.:40:14.

because it reflected your religious convictions? Partly, it isth has

:40:14.:40:18.

often been said the Labour Party owes as much, if not more to

:40:18.:40:23.

methodism it is a did to Marx, that is true, it has a long conviction

:40:23.:40:31.

of coming up through the radical Anglicans in the inner city areas,

:40:31.:40:36.

and we had the radical Anglican reports. It would be ludicrous of

:40:36.:40:40.

me to suggest that the Labour Party has a monoply on faith, and it

:40:40.:40:44.

doesn't, Nadine will explain why. should ask the same question to you,

:40:44.:40:48.

how much does your faith affect where you have ended up in the

:40:48.:40:53.

political spectrum and what you do politically? None of the issues

:40:53.:40:56.

that I champion particularly, although they would be deemed to be

:40:56.:41:03.

faith issues, if I were to approach any of them from a faith

:41:03.:41:07.

perspective I would lose before I have begun, I will give an example,

:41:07.:41:17.
:41:17.:41:18.

I moved to have the upper limit at which abortion takes place from 20

:41:18.:41:22.

weeks to 24 week - 24 weeks to 20, that was from the science and

:41:22.:41:28.

morality, it seems wrong to abort babies who could live if born at

:41:28.:41:32.

that particular gestation, although faith provide as moral framework,

:41:32.:41:35.

in which I think all political parts and individual MPs operate.

:41:35.:41:40.

It doesn't actually direct your policy. But it can direct people to

:41:40.:41:44.

fundamentally different judgments. You say you see shades of grey when

:41:44.:41:49.

it comes to abortion, you are not completely anti-abortion, but on a

:41:49.:41:54.

lot of social issues you can have Conservative Christian who is just

:41:54.:41:57.

absolutely the opposite conclusion about gay marriage, or any of the

:41:57.:42:01.

social issues, that is a religious, that comes from religion? I can't

:42:01.:42:05.

speak for other MPs, I'm sure there are MPs across the Commons, who use

:42:05.:42:10.

their faith to make their decisions. It is very interesting, because we

:42:10.:42:15.

had Catholic MPs in the House of Commons who didn't vote for the

:42:15.:42:19.

abortion amendments, and yet a fundamental tenant of the Catholic

:42:19.:42:23.

religion is life begins at conception. It is very grey and it

:42:23.:42:26.

is difficult to understand how individual MPs, who you would think

:42:26.:42:31.

were of a certain faith, would vote on certain issues in certain ways,

:42:31.:42:35.

but that is the way parliament is. What is striking about the debate

:42:35.:42:39.

today, and what the Archbishop has high loyaltyed in my interview with

:42:39.:42:43.

Iain Duncan Smith, is - highlighted in my interview with Iain Duncan

:42:43.:42:46.

Smith, is there is a fundamental way to respond to poverty. Ben

:42:46.:42:50.

Bradshaw would say, the lesson of the good Samaritan is somebody gave

:42:50.:42:53.

up their own money to help someone, they didn't ask the Government or

:42:53.:42:57.

the authorities to help the person who had been mugged, isn't it in

:42:57.:43:01.

some sense that's more the kind of thing we were hearing from Iain

:43:01.:43:04.

Duncan Smith is a more religious, is more of a Christian message?

:43:04.:43:09.

That is the point that Mrs That mucher famously made, when she was

:43:09.:43:13.

defending her policies - Thatcher made when she was defending her

:43:13.:43:18.

policies in the 80s. That is a way of getting people out of poverty,

:43:18.:43:21.

some people saying that Rowan shouldn't speak about these issues

:43:21.:43:25.

or stand up for the poor and vulnerable. If the Archbishop can't

:43:25.:43:30.

do that, how what is he supposed to do, it is basic tenet of

:43:30.:43:36.

Christianity. He feels passionate about it. The question was he was

:43:36.:43:39.

impuning the morality of people like Iain Duncan Smith? He was

:43:39.:43:43.

making the great point of view that there is bewilderment in the health

:43:44.:43:49.

policy, the policy seems to have come from nowhere, it was ruled out

:43:49.:43:52.

in the coalition agreement and causing disruption. All the

:43:52.:43:55.

independent bodies say it is the weakest and vulnerable hardest hit

:43:55.:43:59.

by the Government's policies. Tupbsable for the Archbishop to

:43:59.:44:02.

speak bout that. You said if you did talk about

:44:02.:44:06.

religion you would have lost the argument immediately? Absolutely,

:44:06.:44:09.

what I would like Rowan Williams to do, I would like, when he does

:44:09.:44:13.

speak, to speak about the issues that the people who attend his

:44:13.:44:18.

churchs are interested. On the issue of abortion, of teenage

:44:18.:44:24.

sexual health of teaching of abstinence in schools, on many of

:44:24.:44:29.

the social issues he is deafening in silence and locks himself in the

:44:29.:44:33.

ivory palaces, he never speaks on the issues that Christians are

:44:34.:44:38.

interested in. I'm not sure they are the issues, most church-going

:44:38.:44:42.

Christians are not concerned with those issues, they are concerned

:44:42.:44:45.

about social issues. They have black and white views on that?

:44:45.:44:48.

differences in the churchs are greater than in parliament. If you

:44:48.:44:51.

look at the Church of England, and the thing that Rowan is trying to

:44:51.:44:56.

do in holding that organisation together, with absolutely differing

:44:56.:44:58.

views on things like gay equality, the interesting thing is we are

:44:58.:45:02.

closer on a lot of things than people within the church itself.

:45:02.:45:09.

are, but many, many churchgoer, I know this from the abortion

:45:09.:45:14.

debate,were frustrated and angry that on such an important issue

:45:14.:45:19.

that Rowan Williams and the church remained silent. He has spoken out

:45:19.:45:25.

today, he has started? He spoke today on politics, and I'm not sure

:45:26.:45:29.

he's any better informed on the issues he spoke about than the man

:45:29.:45:32.

on the street. It was very difficult to understand some of the

:45:32.:45:36.

points that he was making, I'm not sure where he had more of an

:45:36.:45:39.

authority than anybody else to speak on the issues he talked about

:45:39.:45:41.

today. We are going to have to leave it

:45:41.:45:45.

there. We have just got time for the papers. We have got the

:45:46.:45:51.

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