13/06/2011 Newsnight


13/06/2011

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One of the world's richest men gave away a billion dollars today to

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save children in the developing world from death by diarrhoea or

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pneumonia, with vaccines we take advantage. What is not to admire.

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Yet decades of aid money from western Governments have now gone

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to poor countries. Indeed today, David Cameron promised another �800

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million, and the poor and the sick are still with us. Can philanthropy

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really change the world. Bill Gates is here, as is the boss of

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GlaxoSmithKline, one of the world's wealthy drug companies, in in the

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next half hour they will face their critics. After that I will talk to

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the International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell who is

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spending �8 billion a year of our taxs in aid for the developing

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world. Also tonight, the mystery of the A Gay Girl In Damascus blogger

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solved, it wasn't the woman you saw last week on here, it wasn't a

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woman at all, she wasn't in Damascus and she wasn't gay, does

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that mean everything written was a lie.

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The setting was a hotel in the Square Mile of the City of London,

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in the four hours in which some of the richest people in the world,

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and some of the most powerful Governments talked, 700 children

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are stated to have died of diarrhoea and pneumonia. The

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conference at the global alliance for vaccines and immunisation, aims

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to put an end to - Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation, aims

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to put an end to it, by combining the money of philanthropists and

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Governments and drug companies, what happens when individual

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donations overcomes those of states, and how can we account for the

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mistakes they made along the way. He made megabucks by monopolising

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an entire industry, he drove competitors to the wall, crushed

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dissent, and then gave it all away. That was Andrew Carnegie, the

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modern grandee of philanthropic capitalism is Gates. Today, the

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former Microsoft mogul was faithed, as world leaders - feted as world

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leaders cued up to give to his organisation, Global Alliance for

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Vaccines and Immunisation. I like to think of it in terms of

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equity. This is the first time that we can say that poor children will

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not be refused the vaccines that the children in the rich countries

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get, because there is not enough money. Since the launch of the Bill

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and Melinda Gates Foundation, in 1984, Gates has given away $24

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billion, more than half on health projects. He linked up with Warren

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Buffet, who has pledged to giveaway 99% of his $62 billion, to launch a

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spate of giving pledges by the American rich. Gates famously

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brings business discipline to the projects he chooses to help,

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demanding clear accountability from Governments and imposing strict

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performance targets on aid agencies. But he has his critics. If we rely

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on philanthropists for this clairt and this type of aid, what you lose

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is any kind of democratic accountability. The people in

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developing countries on the receiving end of this aid, they

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have no structures through which they can challenge whether it is

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going to the right thing or not. 2007, Gates' spending on health was

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bigger than the annual budget of the World Health Organisation. In

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fact, the foundation is now recognised as one of eight big

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agencies which informally determine global health policy. A status,

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which, said a study in the Lancet, confers power and influence on a

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selected number of organisations, and establishs leverage over the

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voice of civil society. Gates' detractors say by focusing

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on top-down technical solutions to specific diseases, you may limited

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long-term sustainable health services in these countries. The

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sheer dependance of charities, universities, research institutions

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on foundation money means it is a lot easier to find critics in the

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world of computing, than it is in development. They are accountable,

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there is nowhere to hide in the world, the media, all of you guys

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keep us all under the spotlight. In way Bill Gates is probably more

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under the spotlight than other people. There is other ways of

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holding him to account. We had a mass phone call with the British

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public the other day, people could ring in and send questions that he

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had to answer F they want to they it put him under the spotlight.

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Most people believe that Bill Gates has made a massive difference.

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Bill Gates has done, is to cede the market for a new kind of

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philanthropy, over the next ten years Governments will take over

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the vaccination project, their upfront cash will measure in much

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more bang for bucks. At the same time Governments too have adopted

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the Gates' approach, the private sector for the channel for

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philanthropic funds, the global agencies not currently the flavour

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of the month. The UK Government has cut its funding to the

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International Labour Organisation, and the United Nations Industrial

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Development organisation, which is trying to build up developing

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countries' industrial state. It has cut its funding to grassroots

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groups in developing countries and in Britain trying to build the

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campaigns against tax dodging and injustice and trade and all of

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those things. That means you will get a short-term focus on aid, but

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none of the long-term results of global justice trying to bring

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development to the poor in that long-term benefit.

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When it comes to dealing with global poverty, Bill Gates has, in

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the space of a decade, changed the game. But the challenge remain,

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tonight, one person in seven, on the planet, will go to sleep hungry,

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one in four live in absolute poverty. Two-and-a-half though

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people will die today of Malaria. We are joined now by Bill Gates of

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the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. By Andrew Witty of the

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drug gind, GlaxoSmithKline, and Richard Sezibera, until recently

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the Rwanda Health Minister, and on the board for the Global Alliance

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for Vaccines and Immunisation. In a moment we will talk to some critics,

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for the moment let's talk about what you are trying to do, Gates.

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Aid agencies have been at this, Governments at it, what can you do

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as a philanthropist that they can't do? Aid agencies have had great

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result, over 20 million children a year under the age of five died

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back in 1960, now it is under nine million. What we can do is

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accelerate that improvement by getting the very latest vaccine

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that is the rich countries take for granted and getting them out to the

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poor kids. That will save millions of additional lives. Why do you

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want to spend your money in that way? I want to spend my money to

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take the greatest inequity, the fact that these children die, and

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get rid of that. Vaccines are the miracle intervention that allows

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that to happen. Why is this our problem? It's the world's problem.

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Every death anywhere in the world is a death unhumanity. There has

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been a lot of success, immunisation rates are up across the African

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continent, infant mortality rates are down, fewer children are dying,

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because of the intervention of an alliance like the Global Alliance

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for Vaccines and Immunisation. It is amazing what has happened now,

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we have access to more vaccines against pneumonia, against

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diarrhoea, against now cancer, certificate value cancer. Countries

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in Africa that are unable to vaccinate against pneumonia are now

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able to do so. You were quoted yesterday saying the drug companies

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had not been responsible citizens in the past, but there is a change

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of heart occurring. In what way were they not responsible citizens?

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During the 1980 and 1990s and the industry was growing and forming

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itself into what it became people weren't focused on this agenda. I

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think it was wrong, it is late getting focused on the agenda, but

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it has done. Over the last eight years you have seen a tremendous

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shift in where the industry was. You have even the Gavi Alliance

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come into place 1 years ago, the industry has come - 11 years a the

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industry has recognised that. It is in all our interest. It is public

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relations isn't it? People expect in the west, whether in America or

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Europe, people expect to see pharmaceutical industries

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contribute to societies less well off, people expect to see that.

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Within my organisation the majority of the people who work for us, the

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single biggest reason they would quote for why they work for us is a

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contribution to human health, not just rich people's human health,

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but everybody. Those are the drivers that make us look for ways

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to contribute to this agenda. everyone in the aid community

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agrees with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation aims and

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methods. The organisation, Medecins sans frontier, or Doctors Without

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Borders, as they call themselves in mark, they believe it can be done

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better. Daniel Berman speaks for them on access for medicine. What

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do you worry about here? What I worry about is that, although we

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really appreciate the involvement of GlaxoSmithKline, we have to be

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honest, because of a relationship that we feel is a little bit too

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close between the Gates Foundation and donors and companies, we feel

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we are paying too much. The pneumococcal vaccine, you haven't

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talked about, that you have mentioned a little bit about how it

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is financed. This is a product widely available in the wealthy

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countries, there is the market there. In fact, the problem is

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there is a $225 million subsidy that is going to Glaxo Smith clean

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and Pfizer, I would like to Mr - GlaxoSmithKline, and Pfizer, I

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would like to ask Mr Gates where do you do it that way. They were told

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that it was blocked by patents and if there was help in overcoming

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patents the pneumococcal vaccine would be on the market. I know IP

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has been very important in your business, I guess that puts you in

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a difficult situation. Intellectual Property, you mean? When I'm giving

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money away, I bring a strong business sense to make sure it is

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very well strength. When we created the group that helps purchase this

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mum know cock kal vaccine, we researched what does it d number

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cock kal vaccine, we researched what does it cost to produce, there

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was not the capacity to serve the world. By getting people together

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to make a commitment, it allowed companies, including GSK, to spend

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a lot of money. What we are getting in terms of saving lives, in any

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organisation should celebrate what happened today, and what's going to

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happen with these lives saved. You would think it would be MSF. This

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is medicine at work, this is medicine at its best, we are saving

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millions of lives. There is no foolishness about the costs here.

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Mr Gates I think that we totally agree on the mission, I think we

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agree with GSK, we vaccinate ten million children a year, we're with

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you there, we believe the more vaccines out there the better, we

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are talking about how the money is used. In fact, this scheme with the

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subsidy was actually created to stimulate development when there

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weren't vaccines. I don't think it is right to use the vaccine in this

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scheme. Can I specifically address that, on

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a couple of points you raise. In terms of intellectual property or

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patents getting in the way, as far as GSK is concerned are there any

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material patents in pneumococcal vaccines, nobody has asked us about

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that. You have a number of other companies developing their own

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version of products, it is straight, just a second, it is wrong to say

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IP is a problem. In terms of incentivisation, it is interesting

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to look back, the first pneumococcal vaccine was in the

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1990s, there was a limit of capacity production, the Gavi

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Alliance saw this as a major opportunity in the developing world

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and aimed to stimulate the activity. What this incentive is, the first

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few years the vaccine is on the market, we achieve a price of $7 a

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dose, that is very substantially lower than people are paying in the

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west, then this drops. People in the west are paying more, so people

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in the poorer world pay less? make no apology for that.

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accept that is what's happening? are very transparent about teir

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price, people in the richest countries pay most, and the middle,

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the middle, and the poorest less. Some lives are more valuable than

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others? It is unreasonable to expect somebody in the poorest

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countries to contribute to share profits and R & D in the future.

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But the National Health Service? is to try to make access is

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achieved. That story you just said needs to be researched. I was

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directly involved in the process with the GAVI board, I was part of

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a committee, I resigned from that committee, Mr Gates, because you

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loaned five McKinsey consultants to that committee, it was to lower

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price force the GAVI committee. How can the consultants help us lower

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prices when they cult with companies like Mr Witty's. I'm

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worried about the relationship between GAVI. Answer that question?

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The reason I give to GAVI and I feel so great about the pricing

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they achieve, is the experts understand what these things cost.

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We have spent the money to understand that, and yes, it is

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very smart people from all over from McKinsey, I have spent time on

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these things, these prices are coming down because we want to save

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more lives. Time is on our side in innovation. I want to ask one

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question, Mr Sezibera, why don't your Governments buy these drugs

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direct? Because we can't afford them. That is the simple answer. I

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would like to welcome industry, what industry is actually doing

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with teir pricing is exactly what Governments across the world and in

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the developing world do. Through social health insurance schemes you

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make sure the more well off pay relatively for more their health

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than the poorests, what they are doing is absolutely right, it is

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the thing that makes the vaccines available to the poorest in the

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world and makes Governments able to deliver the vaccines to the world,

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it is the right thing to do. Our second critic is Doane from the

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World Development Movement, they believe that much of GAVI's work

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doesn't get at the real underlying problems in the world today. What

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is your anxiety today? Few would disagree with vaccinating millions

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of children, you can't disagree with that, I think the issue we

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have is it is a bit of a distraction, so these sorts of top-

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down, business-led philanthropic solutions, distract from the bigger

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picture, that is this, it is all well and good to be vaccinated

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against preventable disease, but if you send those families back out

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and they don't have land on which to farm because it is grabbed by

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big corporates, because of land grabbing, or they can't feed their

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families because of speculation on food price, on food commodity

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prices because they are spending 90% of their income on every day

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food stuffs and they can't educate their children. All of these things

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will be lost, we will have the same discussion in 20 years time. The

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reason the biggest issues aren't dealt with, one more point, is you

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could look at progressive taxation could be far more important,

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dealing with global monoplies could be far more important, enabling

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people to have the policies to feed themselves would be a much more

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effective solution for dealing with poverty than vaccination programmes.

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This is about the children and the mothers of those children, and

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whether we take the technology that every rich child takes for granted

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and make it available. If she has a scheme to change the economic world

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order, that's all well and good. In the meantime let's not the millions

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of children die. That's why you choose health as

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opposed to any other aspect of development? I'm involved in many

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aspects of development. This is the priority of the moment? We do

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things at the same time, we do agriculture, sanitation. You don't

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think you get in the way of Governments? I think children dying

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is not a good thing. I don't think any mother wants to see her

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children die. These vaccines are about saving those lives.

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accusations not you think it is a good thing, no-one thinks it is a

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good thing that children die. have been dying, only with the

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generosity we saw today, only by getting the prices down will their

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lives be saved. If we spent more of our time, in developing public

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health programmes. One of the concerns we have, much like MSF, is

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we are seeing public health and public interests sidelined, over

:18:20.:18:24.

these technocratic solution, in the instance of vaccinations they

:18:24.:18:27.

favour big pharma, in the interests of when we are looking at another

:18:27.:18:32.

development which I know you look in, we are looking at solution that

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is favours big agri solutions rather than small. There is a bid

:18:40.:18:43.

price, lowest price for vaccines comes in, vaccines are public

:18:43.:18:46.

health, they are the centre of public health, they are the

:18:46.:18:49.

greatest victory of public health in awful history, that is why we

:18:49.:18:53.

are down from 20 million dying a year. There is a question here of

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accountability too, Governments are accountable to their citizens, they

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win power, they lose power by the judgments they make. Who are you

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accountable to when you decide to make these, what everyone agrees

:19:06.:19:12.

are well meant interventions? Anyone who buys a product, if you

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buy a car, if you buy a house, you're exercising, you are taking

:19:18.:19:23.

your success and expressing your values. My values are that all the

:19:23.:19:28.

wealth I have should go back to society, and it should help the

:19:28.:19:32.

very poorest. And as I looked at all the ways to help out the

:19:32.:19:36.

poorest, vaccinations rose to the top of the list as the way to

:19:36.:19:41.

change their lives. The kids who live, if they don't get sick, their

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brains fully develop and they can achieve their potential. This is a

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pretty clear win and the fact that yes, Malaria research is being done

:19:53.:19:58.

now, and vaccines are being delivered, that's a great thing.

:19:58.:20:03.

you worry that, why the western Governments or western

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philanthropists like Bill Gates are making judgments on your behalf?

:20:07.:20:11.

They are not making judgments on behalf of the developing world. The

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developing world countries are co- financing these vaccines, the price

:20:16.:20:21.

of these vaccines. The health budgets are up, they have targets

:20:21.:20:25.

of 15%, Rwanda is past 15%, other Governments are coming up. And yes

:20:25.:20:30.

it is true that we must invest in roads and agriculture, and in food

:20:30.:20:35.

security, and Governments are doing that, but our people must be alive,

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the children must be alive to enjoy these fruits, that is the

:20:38.:20:42.

importance of vaccination. I want to ask you one further question,

:20:42.:20:45.

Andrew Witty, it is about a potential conflict of interest here,

:20:46.:20:51.

drug companies such as yourselves, which are both supplying medicines

:20:51.:20:55.

or vaccines and sitting on the board which makes judgments about

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whether they should be supplied, that is a conflict of interest

:20:59.:21:03.

isn't it? No, GSK used to have a seat on the GAVI board, we have

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rotated off it, there are two industry seats on the GAVI board,

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we have come off somebody else is on. The GAVI board, when you look

:21:12.:21:16.

around the table, almost everyone has a vested interest, you are

:21:16.:21:19.

either a potential supplier or recipient or potential delivery

:21:19.:21:23.

agency. Everybody around that table, more or less has a vested interest.

:21:23.:21:27.

What is clear with the gay the GAVI board operates, is if anything spe

:21:27.:21:31.

- the way the GAVI board operates, if anything comes up the member

:21:31.:21:36.

leaves the meet, of course. The balance here is we don't end up in

:21:36.:21:40.

a situation where you don't have any expertise around the table. If

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people are talking about the art of the impossible without any

:21:43.:21:47.

knowledge of what actually goes on. Having somebody there is important,

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I think this would pass any scrutiny over whether or not these

:21:50.:21:56.

people can assert any undue influence, I'm sure they do not.

:21:56.:22:00.

Thank you Deborah Doane. Finally a journalist and former speech

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writing for David Cameron, the question does aid work, is it worth

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all this time and money, and in the long run does it help those in need,

:22:07.:22:12.

what is your pitch? I do agree with Mr Gates that vaccination is

:22:12.:22:16.

probably about the best use of aid and Malaria research, that is right.

:22:16.:22:22.

I have a more fundamentalish problem with the whole issue of aid

:22:22.:22:27.

- fundamental issue with the whole issue of aid. Countries getting

:22:27.:22:30.

their aid needs, and not having a need to respond to the needs with

:22:30.:22:34.

the people there. We are breaching accountability. Harvard Medical

:22:34.:22:38.

School have shone when you put money into health services health

:22:38.:22:42.

spending declines, in places like Rwanda and Ethiopia, British aid is

:22:42.:22:46.

fund ago Government that is sending hit men here, on top of that,

:22:46.:22:51.

British aid fund add media council that bans independent newspapers

:22:51.:22:53.

and an Electoral Commission that stopped independent challenges, all

:22:54.:22:57.

these self-appointed saviours are a problem and the reason why we keep

:22:57.:23:01.

hearing western voices always the voices for aid, not African voices,

:23:01.:23:05.

unless they are involved in the industry, because the image of calf

:23:05.:23:09.

is being destroyed by aid, people see Africa as a supplicant, rather

:23:09.:23:13.

than in the fast-growing and changing place where six of the

:23:13.:23:16.

fastest-growing economies are there. Let's deal with the last point

:23:16.:23:22.

freshest in our mind first, do you worry about who is driving this

:23:22.:23:28.

whole aid enterprise? politically elected Governments are

:23:28.:23:33.

by far the biggest donors here. And so politicians like David Cameron,

:23:33.:23:38.

they make a choice, based on what they think the policies should be

:23:38.:23:42.

in, the voters will eventually get to weigh in, just like in many

:23:42.:23:47.

other countries. What about this question of helping to support

:23:47.:23:54.

repressive regimes? Certainly vaccination, it is quite a stretch

:23:54.:23:58.

to say it supports repressive regimes, or maybe they should

:23:58.:24:02.

refuse the aid. That isn't what I was saying, I was saying British

:24:02.:24:07.

aid, not your aid, British aid has directly gone to repressive regimes,

:24:07.:24:10.

that is very different from the sort of things you are doing, there

:24:10.:24:16.

is an issue about that fact. When we decide to save children in a

:24:16.:24:19.

country, we don't look at what the Government has done and say they

:24:19.:24:22.

are not a nice Government. We are willing to fund vaccination for all

:24:22.:24:26.

the children of the world, independent of what is going on

:24:26.:24:31.

with that Government. Richard Sezibera, you are Rwandan, aren't

:24:31.:24:37.

you? You stand accused in all of this to a degree? It is not true

:24:37.:24:41.

that the Rwandan Government sent hit squads all over the world.

:24:41.:24:46.

was Scotland Yard that said they were. I find the discourse a bit

:24:46.:24:51.

dispier iting, on the one hand, rb disspiriting, on the one hand, the

:24:51.:24:55.

British Government, on the other hand regime, the discourse of

:24:55.:24:58.

people who look at Africa and the developing world as if we do not

:24:58.:25:03.

have universal values. And of course, if there is a repressive

:25:03.:25:09.

regime, the people in that country, will rise up against their leaders,

:25:09.:25:14.

through a democratic process. if your Government is, the entire

:25:14.:25:18.

edifice of your country is being supported by western aid, there is

:25:18.:25:23.

less income bancy on you as a Government to render yourself

:25:23.:25:27.

accountable to our citizens. It is not correct that a Government

:25:27.:25:31.

should be supported entire by the western world. My own belief and

:25:31.:25:40.

the belief of many African is we should use aid to get and win our

:25:40.:25:43.

wean ourselves off aid. It is the quality of the aid, the aid must

:25:44.:25:49.

come in to fund a country-owned, country-designed-country-run

:25:49.:25:52.

programme, the more you do that the better. The accountability for

:25:52.:25:56.

delivery must be put where it belongs, on the shoulders of the

:25:56.:26:01.

leaders of these countries. If they can't, then they have to answer for

:26:01.:26:05.

it. You are entirely comfortable with the way this whole thing

:26:05.:26:11.

operates are you? I share Bill's view to a large degree. You have

:26:11.:26:14.

never had anxieties about the dependency culture or the image of

:26:14.:26:20.

Africa? On aid as a general concept I would share some of the questions.

:26:20.:26:23.

It is important when you talk about aid in the bigger sense. When you

:26:23.:26:27.

focus on vaccine, next to washing your hands, it is the single

:26:27.:26:32.

biggest health care intervention in history. When you go to villages,

:26:32.:26:36.

who have only just received their first solar-powered fridge, and as

:26:36.:26:41.

a result for the first time people have been vaccinated against basic

:26:41.:26:44.

illnesses and diseases that are killing children all the time. When

:26:44.:26:47.

you see that happen on the ground it is really difficult to walk away

:26:47.:26:51.

interest that and say we shouldn't be trying to do this more often

:26:51.:26:55.

than in the past. Can I finish with you Bill Gates, on a personal note,

:26:55.:26:59.

everyone in the world knows who you are, and everyone in the world

:26:59.:27:03.

almost uses your products in some way or another. Do you hope this

:27:03.:27:07.

sort of initiative is what you will be remembered for? I don't care to

:27:07.:27:11.

be remembered at all. I do hope that we can get that number of nine

:27:12.:27:15.

million children a year who die down to seven million then five

:27:15.:27:18.

million then three million. There is some wonderful things in the

:27:18.:27:23.

world, today was a big day, the pledging to buy these two new

:27:24.:27:29.

vaccines. We're partnered with GSK on Malaria vaccine with luck, in

:27:29.:27:34.

three years, will be in a position to start delivering that. The

:27:34.:27:38.

advances in technology should not just be for the richest, they, in

:27:38.:27:43.

fact, we should tilt our work to help the poorest. And that's why

:27:43.:27:47.

I'm excited about this second career that I have got.

:27:47.:27:53.

Thank you all very much indeed. Quite apart from the Gates' money,

:27:53.:27:57.

the British Government today committed another �800 million of

:27:57.:28:00.

tax-payers' money to be spent on aid or vaccines specifically. The

:28:00.:28:04.

Prime Minister said that although just be every other area of

:28:04.:28:09.

spending is being cut, it was morally right to spend more on

:28:09.:28:11.

international development. The International Development Secretary,

:28:11.:28:14.

Andrew Mitchell, is here. First a few facts and figure about the UK

:28:14.:28:24.
:28:24.:28:33.

Almost every Government department is seeing cuts.

:28:33.:28:43.
:28:43.:29:02.

The biggest recipients of British The International Development

:29:02.:29:07.

Secretary is, as I mentioned here. David Cameron said today that it

:29:07.:29:12.

was right to increase your budget, the international development

:29:12.:29:15.

budget, at the time that other budgets were being cut, it was

:29:15.:29:20.

morally the right thing to do, why? There are two key arguments, it is

:29:20.:29:24.

morally the right thing to do. We live in a world where there are

:29:24.:29:27.

these extraordinary discrepencies of opportunity, and our generations

:29:27.:29:30.

have a chance to really do something about it. The pledging

:29:30.:29:34.

conference today is, I think, a very good example of that. It is

:29:34.:29:37.

not just it is morally right, it is very much in our national interest.

:29:38.:29:43.

This is �300 or more from every household in the country, at a time,

:29:43.:29:47.

when the services they need are being cut, and when they themselves

:29:47.:29:52.

are finding life very often very tough? I don't pretend this is an

:29:52.:29:57.

easy issue, as a proportion of our expenditure, it is relatively small,

:29:57.:30:03.

it is under 1% of national income, I think a country like our's can

:30:03.:30:07.

afford that. If you look at the generosity of people in Britain.

:30:07.:30:11.

For example, in Comic Relief, which over the last two times is against

:30:11.:30:14.

a background of much more serious economic situation, people have

:30:14.:30:17.

been more generous each time. Absolutely, they have a choice in

:30:17.:30:21.

the matter. They have no choice about whether they pay their taxes,

:30:21.:30:25.

they pay their taxes, convention has it, in order to be defended by

:30:25.:30:27.

the Armed Forces, educated in the schools and universities, and all

:30:27.:30:31.

the rest of it. Instead of which they see all of those being cut,

:30:31.:30:36.

and you, by force of law, taking more money to spend in places like

:30:36.:30:39.

Africa? I think the national development budget does have a huge

:30:39.:30:43.

impact. It also impacts on people's security. The point you have just

:30:43.:30:49.

made about defending the state. Our security is not only defend bid

:30:49.:30:56.

guns and tanks, but also training the police in Afghanistan and

:30:56.:31:02.

building up glofrpbance structures in the Middle East, and getting

:31:02.:31:06.

girls into school. It is not just a moral issue, but also very much in

:31:06.:31:11.

our national interest. How much money are we giving to Uganda?

:31:11.:31:17.

Something like �70 million. Is it true the President of Uganda spent

:31:17.:31:21.

�30 million on an executive jet? That happened under the last

:31:21.:31:25.

Government. I don't agree with that, it is the wrong use of the money.

:31:25.:31:29.

Why do we keep on giving it to them? If Governments under us spend

:31:29.:31:35.

money in that way, then we will take action to seek to stop it, in

:31:35.:31:39.

doing, that of course, we want to try to make sure we don't end up

:31:39.:31:43.

afflicting the poorest people in the countries. You want to make the

:31:43.:31:47.

Government more accountable, more transparent. What are we doing

:31:47.:31:52.

giving money to India when it can afford a space programme? India is

:31:52.:32:00.

a development paradox, there are more poor people in India than the

:32:00.:32:04.

whole sub-Saharan continent. For the first time India is not the

:32:04.:32:07.

largest programme. The money is spent in the poorest areas, up to

:32:07.:32:12.

half of it will be on pro--poor, private sector development. Yet the

:32:12.:32:16.

Government of industry chooses to spend money on a space programme?

:32:16.:32:21.

The British development efforts in India, which is a tiny proportion

:32:21.:32:25.

of what the Indians themselves, under 1%, what they themselves

:32:25.:32:32.

spend on education and health care, has a colossal effect and benefit

:32:32.:32:36.

for India. As part of Britain's programme and partnership with

:32:36.:32:40.

india, which was greatly rejuvinated by the Prime Minister

:32:40.:32:43.

last year, the development programme play as small but

:32:43.:32:50.

important part. We give them less than they give to other countries

:32:50.:32:54.

in assistance? That is not true, the Indian, what you would refer to

:32:54.:32:58.

the Indian aid programme is not the aim as what we would call an aid

:32:58.:33:02.

programme, it is a credit system for business. You are spliting

:33:02.:33:07.

hairs? You can't compare them, they are not the same. Isn't it true,

:33:07.:33:12.

people like you belong to a generation that look back on Live

:33:12.:33:18.

Aid as being a marvellous thing and the Gleneagles conference as a

:33:18.:33:21.

marvellous thing and you are out of step with the public, it might have

:33:21.:33:25.

been true eight years ago but not any more? I don't think that is

:33:25.:33:28.

true, the point is our generation have the ability to make a real

:33:28.:33:34.

change in the world. There is a new state start anything Sudan, south

:33:34.:33:39.

Sudan, the girl born today in south Sudan has more chance of dying

:33:40.:33:45.

having a baby than completing primary school. We can do something

:33:45.:33:49.

about this, I'm so glad that the conference today on Global Alliance

:33:49.:33:54.

for Vaccines and Immunisation can have a real impact on children

:33:54.:33:57.

overseas. You have talked about this country becoming an aid

:33:57.:34:00.

superpower, some would characterise it as you would used to

:34:00.:34:03.

characterise the Labour Party as being very generous with other

:34:03.:34:07.

people's money, why is it we have decided to do that, and yet the

:34:07.:34:11.

Italians, the Germans and the Japanese have not decided to go

:34:11.:34:17.

that route? When I say the we were a development superpower. In just

:34:17.:34:22.

the same way as America is a military superpower, but because of

:34:22.:34:25.

the brilliant leadership of Britain around the world in development, we

:34:25.:34:30.

have a huge impact on tackling these dreadful diseases and

:34:30.:34:33.

difficulties, saving lives which we have been talking about. I think it

:34:33.:34:38.

is part of the British DNA to be generous to those who are much less

:34:38.:34:41.

fortunate than we are, the extraordinary discrepencies of

:34:41.:34:44.

wealth which we used earlier, and opportunity. We can do something

:34:45.:34:49.

about that, and we will. Andrew Mitchell thank you very much.

:34:49.:34:53.

Now if you were watching last week you perhaps saw an interview with a

:34:53.:34:56.

London woman who has been presented, completely without her knowledge,

:34:56.:35:01.

to the world as a lesbian living in Damascus. She was pretty cross

:35:01.:35:05.

about her picture being used, it was said to be skaurt measure to

:35:05.:35:12.

protect a Syrian dissident. It turns out not was she not the real

:35:12.:35:15.

author of A Gay Girl In Damascus, the real author was not gay or in

:35:15.:35:20.

Damascus. Nor a girl.

:35:20.:35:27.

Out of a closed country, racked by revolt, came out what sounded like

:35:27.:35:37.
:35:37.:35:42.

Amina Abdallah Araf al Omari reported in her blog the brutal

:35:42.:35:50.

supression of pro-democracy As the violence continued, she also

:35:50.:36:00.
:36:00.:36:04.

She was apparently forced into hiding, and then a week ago

:36:04.:36:14.
:36:14.:36:18.

Thousands joined a Facebook site, demanding her release. As newt

:36:18.:36:22.

night discovered last week, the picture she used of herself

:36:22.:36:26.

actually belonged to a London woman, who is now thinking of suing over

:36:26.:36:33.

the theft of her identity. I never met Amina I'm not part of her blog,

:36:33.:36:38.

not friends with her. It's absolutely astonishing that

:36:38.:36:42.

somebody has been using my pictures and obviously campaigning with my

:36:42.:36:50.

face on it. Today, a married American student

:36:50.:36:53.

at Edinburgh University admitted he was the A Gay Girl In Damascus all

:36:53.:36:58.

along. There are a lot of people who would

:36:58.:37:03.

be perfectly within their rights punching me in the jaw. He's a

:37:03.:37:08.

Middle East activist who began blogging as Amina several years ago,

:37:08.:37:14.

long before the Arab uprisings? intention was never to hurt anyone,

:37:14.:37:21.

in fact, the only intentions I had, besides my own vanity was to draw

:37:21.:37:27.

attention to what I believe are important issues, and second, I

:37:27.:37:33.

amsomebody who feels guilt a lot. I'm feeling incredibly guilty about

:37:33.:37:37.

hurting people and harming causes that I personally, as a human being,

:37:37.:37:45.

believe in. This photo, used by Amina, that

:37:45.:37:50.

previously appeared on a site belonging to McMaster's wife, was a

:37:51.:37:55.

trail of clue that led other bloggers to the truth. The real

:37:55.:38:01.

clue there was the photo on Amina's blog had a wider field of view than

:38:01.:38:05.

the photo on Britta's website, that suggested to us that the person who

:38:05.:38:11.

put it on Amina's blog had access to the original image.

:38:11.:38:17.

Evidence of popular anger in Syria, from where foren reporters are

:38:17.:38:27.
:38:27.:38:29.

banned comes, in - where foren reporters are banned, some think

:38:29.:38:34.

that hoaxers like McMaster has brought a wider audience. It has

:38:34.:38:40.

pointed out certain social issues that the majority of Syrian

:38:40.:38:44.

bloggers wouldn't touch on, like homosexuality, for obvious social

:38:44.:38:53.

and religious reasons. I don't think there is any bad motives

:38:53.:38:59.

behind the bloggers and the events he has given are daily events that

:38:59.:39:01.

political dissidents and homosexuals go through and face

:39:01.:39:08.

under the regime of Bashar al-Assad. But among those deceived was this

:39:08.:39:13.

Canadian woman who said she was Amin's girlfriend and couldn't

:39:13.:39:18.

sleep for worrying about her. difficult to know where she is, and

:39:18.:39:23.

who took her. Something the hoaxer has done -

:39:23.:39:30.

some think the hoaxer has done wider harm too? This hoax has

:39:30.:39:34.

brought damage to the credibility that people who need to use a cloak

:39:34.:39:39.

of anonymity and pseudonyms to communicate publicly. That has cast

:39:39.:39:43.

a doubt on their ability to be heard when they are really in need.

:39:43.:39:47.

When real Syrian people, or real Arab individuals are expressing

:39:47.:39:52.

themselves, and not somebody who is, in a sense, adopting that as drag

:39:52.:39:58.

for his own purposes. Today, refugees continued to arrive

:39:58.:40:04.

in neighbouring Turkey, after the army retook the rebellious town of

:40:04.:40:11.

Al-Shughour. As for the Gay Girl in Damascus, what began as a possible

:40:11.:40:14.

well-meaning attempt to highlight oppression, has ended up

:40:14.:40:17.

distracting attention from the real horror of Syria now.

:40:17.:40:21.

Details of concessions in the Government's health bill have been

:40:21.:40:26.

announced today, and our political editor is with us.

:40:26.:40:29.

What are they? Strictly speaking we have to wait until tomorrow to get

:40:29.:40:34.

the Government's response. What happened today was that Professor

:40:35.:40:38.

Steve Field, the senior GP, asked by the Government eight weeks ago

:40:38.:40:41.

to go around the country with a team of health exports to work out

:40:41.:40:45.

what to do about the bill, came back and delivered his report. Much

:40:45.:40:49.

of it is long and complicated and very difficult to understand.

:40:49.:40:55.

Essentially, what he is saying is there will probably be some delay

:40:55.:40:59.

in certain places to the implementation of the GP-led

:40:59.:41:03.

consortia, that will be commissions health care in future. Perhaps the

:41:03.:41:07.

most fundamental change that he's recommending is there should be a

:41:07.:41:11.

lot less emphasis on competition in the health service in future, and

:41:11.:41:16.

in the health and social care Bill and in particular, that it should

:41:16.:41:23.

not be the primary purpose of the new Healthwatch dog, Monitor, to

:41:23.:41:28.

consider competition, competition is important, but it shunting of

:41:28.:41:34.

overriding importance. Has this done the trick? It has, there is

:41:34.:41:43.

nothing like the huge rift within the coalition we had a month ago.

:41:43.:41:46.

The Liberal Democrats have had a successful neating with Nick Clegg,

:41:46.:41:49.

they believe there is a Vic auto- meeting with Nick Clegg, they

:41:49.:41:53.

believe there is a victory here. The Health Secretary is

:41:53.:41:57.

sufficiently happy not to resign. He will play a role in explaining

:41:57.:42:00.

what the Government will do. Tomorrow we will also be hearing

:42:00.:42:04.

from groups of health service professionals, some of whom will be

:42:04.:42:07.

expressing their satisfaction. Where David Cameron has so far

:42:07.:42:13.

failed, though, politically, is in public opinion, an opinion poll for

:42:13.:42:16.

ITN tonight shows more than half the British public don't trust

:42:16.:42:21.

Cameron on the NHS. Was this ever a real issue, is it about substantive

:42:21.:42:25.

matters in the NHS, or is there some tension between the Liberal

:42:26.:42:30.

Democrats and the Tories? There are substantive matters in the NHS. My

:42:30.:42:34.

own view of the proposal that is have come up from Steve Field today,

:42:34.:42:36.

I was at the briefing s basically where the Government went wrong on

:42:36.:42:40.

the bill is in presentation and communication, that indeed was a

:42:40.:42:45.

lot of what Professor Field was saying. In the language they used,

:42:45.:42:49.

he argues that actually they frightened them who didn't need to

:42:49.:42:53.

be frightened. A lot of what he's recommending is the language should

:42:53.:42:57.

be changed, that certain emphasis should be applied here and less

:42:57.:43:01.

there, and that was much more likely to satisfy the people in the

:43:01.:43:06.

health service who were deeply worried about all these proposals.

:43:06.:43:10.

That sounds like ineptness? To a degree. Some people in Downing

:43:10.:43:15.

Street would argue in terms of presenting this bill, Andrew

:43:15.:43:19.

Lansley has shown a certain ineptness in terms of communicating

:43:19.:43:22.

it. Interestingly, where the Liberal Democrats won't be able to

:43:22.:43:26.

claim a victory is what happens to the bill next. Nick Clegg was

:43:26.:43:30.

arguing it ought now to go back to the Commons committee, where it was

:43:30.:43:34.

before, the Government is not going to do that, it is going to say, no,

:43:34.:43:38.

proceed as before, to report stage, even though that report stage may

:43:38.:43:44.

take up to a couple of weeks. have lost the public now! Tomorrow

:43:44.:43:54.
:43:54.:44:17.

That's all from Newsnight tonight. That's all from Newsnight tonight.

:44:17.:44:27.
:44:27.:44:50.

Goodnight. More rain coming in for the week.

:44:50.:44:54.

Tomorrow is said to be a belter after a chilty start, a lot of

:44:54.:45:02.

sunshine to look forward to. There will be sudden cloud building

:45:02.:45:08.

up. It won't threaten rain for the most part.

:45:08.:45:14.

The low 20s widely and the winds light. A feel-good day. Down across

:45:14.:45:19.

the far South-West of England, it will cloud up with drizzle by the

:45:19.:45:22.

end of the afternoon, principally across Cornwall. Elsewhere across

:45:22.:45:27.

the UK, no such threat. Dry across Wales, with well-broken cloud and

:45:28.:45:30.

sunny spells, and for Northern Ireland as well. Temperatures here

:45:30.:45:35.

up to 16-17. Up across Scotland, the north of Scotland, winds will

:45:35.:45:38.

be lighter than they were today. And the worst of the wet weather

:45:38.:45:41.

will have cleared away from the Northern Isles, things settling

:45:41.:45:46.

down across the northern parts. A fine prospect then, for most of us

:45:47.:45:50.

across northern areas fine. More cloud across the west of the UK,

:45:50.:45:55.

maybe the odd shower, the theme is for it to stay predominantly dry on

:45:55.:45:59.

Wednesday, although cloudier than Tuesday. Wednesday's probably the

:45:59.:46:03.

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