Browse content similar to 13/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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One of the world's richest men gave away a billion dollars today to | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
save children in the developing world from death by diarrhoea or | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
pneumonia, with vaccines we take advantage. What is not to admire. | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
Yet decades of aid money from western Governments have now gone | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
to poor countries. Indeed today, David Cameron promised another �800 | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
million, and the poor and the sick are still with us. Can philanthropy | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
really change the world. Bill Gates is here, as is the boss of | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
GlaxoSmithKline, one of the world's wealthy drug companies, in in the | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
next half hour they will face their critics. After that I will talk to | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
the International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell who is | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
spending �8 billion a year of our taxs in aid for the developing | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
world. Also tonight, the mystery of the A Gay Girl In Damascus blogger | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
solved, it wasn't the woman you saw last week on here, it wasn't a | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
woman at all, she wasn't in Damascus and she wasn't gay, does | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
that mean everything written was a lie. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
The setting was a hotel in the Square Mile of the City of London, | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
in the four hours in which some of the richest people in the world, | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
and some of the most powerful Governments talked, 700 children | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
are stated to have died of diarrhoea and pneumonia. The | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
conference at the global alliance for vaccines and immunisation, aims | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
to put an end to - Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation, aims | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
to put an end to it, by combining the money of philanthropists and | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
Governments and drug companies, what happens when individual | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
donations overcomes those of states, and how can we account for the | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
mistakes they made along the way. He made megabucks by monopolising | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
an entire industry, he drove competitors to the wall, crushed | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
dissent, and then gave it all away. That was Andrew Carnegie, the | :02:09. | :02:18. | |
modern grandee of philanthropic capitalism is Gates. Today, the | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
former Microsoft mogul was faithed, as world leaders - feted as world | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
leaders cued up to give to his organisation, Global Alliance for | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
Vaccines and Immunisation. I like to think of it in terms of | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
equity. This is the first time that we can say that poor children will | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
not be refused the vaccines that the children in the rich countries | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
get, because there is not enough money. Since the launch of the Bill | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
and Melinda Gates Foundation, in 1984, Gates has given away $24 | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
billion, more than half on health projects. He linked up with Warren | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
Buffet, who has pledged to giveaway 99% of his $62 billion, to launch a | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
spate of giving pledges by the American rich. Gates famously | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
brings business discipline to the projects he chooses to help, | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
demanding clear accountability from Governments and imposing strict | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
performance targets on aid agencies. But he has his critics. If we rely | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
on philanthropists for this clairt and this type of aid, what you lose | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
is any kind of democratic accountability. The people in | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
developing countries on the receiving end of this aid, they | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
have no structures through which they can challenge whether it is | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
going to the right thing or not. 2007, Gates' spending on health was | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
bigger than the annual budget of the World Health Organisation. In | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
fact, the foundation is now recognised as one of eight big | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
agencies which informally determine global health policy. A status, | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
which, said a study in the Lancet, confers power and influence on a | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
selected number of organisations, and establishs leverage over the | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
voice of civil society. Gates' detractors say by focusing | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
on top-down technical solutions to specific diseases, you may limited | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
long-term sustainable health services in these countries. The | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
sheer dependance of charities, universities, research institutions | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
on foundation money means it is a lot easier to find critics in the | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
world of computing, than it is in development. They are accountable, | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
there is nowhere to hide in the world, the media, all of you guys | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
keep us all under the spotlight. In way Bill Gates is probably more | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
under the spotlight than other people. There is other ways of | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
holding him to account. We had a mass phone call with the British | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
public the other day, people could ring in and send questions that he | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
had to answer F they want to they it put him under the spotlight. | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
Most people believe that Bill Gates has made a massive difference. | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
Bill Gates has done, is to cede the market for a new kind of | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
philanthropy, over the next ten years Governments will take over | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
the vaccination project, their upfront cash will measure in much | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
more bang for bucks. At the same time Governments too have adopted | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
the Gates' approach, the private sector for the channel for | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
philanthropic funds, the global agencies not currently the flavour | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
of the month. The UK Government has cut its funding to the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
International Labour Organisation, and the United Nations Industrial | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
Development organisation, which is trying to build up developing | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
countries' industrial state. It has cut its funding to grassroots | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
groups in developing countries and in Britain trying to build the | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
campaigns against tax dodging and injustice and trade and all of | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
those things. That means you will get a short-term focus on aid, but | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
none of the long-term results of global justice trying to bring | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
development to the poor in that long-term benefit. | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
When it comes to dealing with global poverty, Bill Gates has, in | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
the space of a decade, changed the game. But the challenge remain, | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
tonight, one person in seven, on the planet, will go to sleep hungry, | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
one in four live in absolute poverty. Two-and-a-half though | :06:18. | :06:28. | |
people will die today of Malaria. We are joined now by Bill Gates of | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. By Andrew Witty of the | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
drug gind, GlaxoSmithKline, and Richard Sezibera, until recently | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
the Rwanda Health Minister, and on the board for the Global Alliance | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
for Vaccines and Immunisation. In a moment we will talk to some critics, | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
for the moment let's talk about what you are trying to do, Gates. | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Aid agencies have been at this, Governments at it, what can you do | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
as a philanthropist that they can't do? Aid agencies have had great | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
result, over 20 million children a year under the age of five died | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
back in 1960, now it is under nine million. What we can do is | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
accelerate that improvement by getting the very latest vaccine | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
that is the rich countries take for granted and getting them out to the | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
poor kids. That will save millions of additional lives. Why do you | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
want to spend your money in that way? I want to spend my money to | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
take the greatest inequity, the fact that these children die, and | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
get rid of that. Vaccines are the miracle intervention that allows | :07:35. | :07:43. | |
that to happen. Why is this our problem? It's the world's problem. | :07:43. | :07:51. | |
Every death anywhere in the world is a death unhumanity. There has | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
been a lot of success, immunisation rates are up across the African | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
continent, infant mortality rates are down, fewer children are dying, | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
because of the intervention of an alliance like the Global Alliance | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
for Vaccines and Immunisation. It is amazing what has happened now, | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
we have access to more vaccines against pneumonia, against | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
diarrhoea, against now cancer, certificate value cancer. Countries | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
in Africa that are unable to vaccinate against pneumonia are now | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
able to do so. You were quoted yesterday saying the drug companies | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
had not been responsible citizens in the past, but there is a change | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
of heart occurring. In what way were they not responsible citizens? | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
During the 1980 and 1990s and the industry was growing and forming | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
itself into what it became people weren't focused on this agenda. I | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
think it was wrong, it is late getting focused on the agenda, but | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
it has done. Over the last eight years you have seen a tremendous | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
shift in where the industry was. You have even the Gavi Alliance | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
come into place 1 years ago, the industry has come - 11 years a the | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
industry has recognised that. It is in all our interest. It is public | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
relations isn't it? People expect in the west, whether in America or | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
Europe, people expect to see pharmaceutical industries | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
contribute to societies less well off, people expect to see that. | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
Within my organisation the majority of the people who work for us, the | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
single biggest reason they would quote for why they work for us is a | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
contribution to human health, not just rich people's human health, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
but everybody. Those are the drivers that make us look for ways | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
to contribute to this agenda. everyone in the aid community | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
agrees with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation aims and | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
methods. The organisation, Medecins sans frontier, or Doctors Without | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
Borders, as they call themselves in mark, they believe it can be done | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
better. Daniel Berman speaks for them on access for medicine. What | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
do you worry about here? What I worry about is that, although we | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
really appreciate the involvement of GlaxoSmithKline, we have to be | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
honest, because of a relationship that we feel is a little bit too | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
close between the Gates Foundation and donors and companies, we feel | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
we are paying too much. The pneumococcal vaccine, you haven't | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
talked about, that you have mentioned a little bit about how it | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
is financed. This is a product widely available in the wealthy | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
countries, there is the market there. In fact, the problem is | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
there is a $225 million subsidy that is going to Glaxo Smith clean | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
and Pfizer, I would like to Mr - GlaxoSmithKline, and Pfizer, I | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
would like to ask Mr Gates where do you do it that way. They were told | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
that it was blocked by patents and if there was help in overcoming | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
patents the pneumococcal vaccine would be on the market. I know IP | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
has been very important in your business, I guess that puts you in | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
a difficult situation. Intellectual Property, you mean? When I'm giving | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
money away, I bring a strong business sense to make sure it is | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
very well strength. When we created the group that helps purchase this | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
mum know cock kal vaccine, we researched what does it d number | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
cock kal vaccine, we researched what does it cost to produce, there | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
was not the capacity to serve the world. By getting people together | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
to make a commitment, it allowed companies, including GSK, to spend | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
a lot of money. What we are getting in terms of saving lives, in any | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
organisation should celebrate what happened today, and what's going to | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
happen with these lives saved. You would think it would be MSF. This | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
is medicine at work, this is medicine at its best, we are saving | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
millions of lives. There is no foolishness about the costs here. | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
Mr Gates I think that we totally agree on the mission, I think we | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
agree with GSK, we vaccinate ten million children a year, we're with | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
you there, we believe the more vaccines out there the better, we | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
are talking about how the money is used. In fact, this scheme with the | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
subsidy was actually created to stimulate development when there | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
weren't vaccines. I don't think it is right to use the vaccine in this | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
scheme. Can I specifically address that, on | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
a couple of points you raise. In terms of intellectual property or | :12:40. | :12:48. | |
patents getting in the way, as far as GSK is concerned are there any | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
material patents in pneumococcal vaccines, nobody has asked us about | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
that. You have a number of other companies developing their own | :12:56. | :13:03. | |
version of products, it is straight, just a second, it is wrong to say | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
IP is a problem. In terms of incentivisation, it is interesting | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
to look back, the first pneumococcal vaccine was in the | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
1990s, there was a limit of capacity production, the Gavi | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
Alliance saw this as a major opportunity in the developing world | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
and aimed to stimulate the activity. What this incentive is, the first | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
few years the vaccine is on the market, we achieve a price of $7 a | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
dose, that is very substantially lower than people are paying in the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
west, then this drops. People in the west are paying more, so people | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
in the poorer world pay less? make no apology for that. | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
accept that is what's happening? are very transparent about teir | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
price, people in the richest countries pay most, and the middle, | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
the middle, and the poorest less. Some lives are more valuable than | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
others? It is unreasonable to expect somebody in the poorest | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
countries to contribute to share profits and R & D in the future. | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
But the National Health Service? is to try to make access is | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
achieved. That story you just said needs to be researched. I was | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
directly involved in the process with the GAVI board, I was part of | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
a committee, I resigned from that committee, Mr Gates, because you | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
loaned five McKinsey consultants to that committee, it was to lower | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
price force the GAVI committee. How can the consultants help us lower | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
prices when they cult with companies like Mr Witty's. I'm | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
worried about the relationship between GAVI. Answer that question? | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
The reason I give to GAVI and I feel so great about the pricing | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
they achieve, is the experts understand what these things cost. | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
We have spent the money to understand that, and yes, it is | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
very smart people from all over from McKinsey, I have spent time on | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
these things, these prices are coming down because we want to save | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
more lives. Time is on our side in innovation. I want to ask one | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
question, Mr Sezibera, why don't your Governments buy these drugs | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
direct? Because we can't afford them. That is the simple answer. I | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
would like to welcome industry, what industry is actually doing | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
with teir pricing is exactly what Governments across the world and in | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
the developing world do. Through social health insurance schemes you | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
make sure the more well off pay relatively for more their health | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
than the poorests, what they are doing is absolutely right, it is | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
the thing that makes the vaccines available to the poorest in the | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
world and makes Governments able to deliver the vaccines to the world, | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
it is the right thing to do. Our second critic is Doane from the | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
World Development Movement, they believe that much of GAVI's work | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
doesn't get at the real underlying problems in the world today. What | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
is your anxiety today? Few would disagree with vaccinating millions | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
of children, you can't disagree with that, I think the issue we | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
have is it is a bit of a distraction, so these sorts of top- | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
down, business-led philanthropic solutions, distract from the bigger | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
picture, that is this, it is all well and good to be vaccinated | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
against preventable disease, but if you send those families back out | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
and they don't have land on which to farm because it is grabbed by | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
big corporates, because of land grabbing, or they can't feed their | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
families because of speculation on food price, on food commodity | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
prices because they are spending 90% of their income on every day | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
food stuffs and they can't educate their children. All of these things | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
will be lost, we will have the same discussion in 20 years time. The | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
reason the biggest issues aren't dealt with, one more point, is you | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
could look at progressive taxation could be far more important, | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
dealing with global monoplies could be far more important, enabling | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
people to have the policies to feed themselves would be a much more | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
effective solution for dealing with poverty than vaccination programmes. | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
This is about the children and the mothers of those children, and | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
whether we take the technology that every rich child takes for granted | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
and make it available. If she has a scheme to change the economic world | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
order, that's all well and good. In the meantime let's not the millions | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
of children die. That's why you choose health as | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
opposed to any other aspect of development? I'm involved in many | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
aspects of development. This is the priority of the moment? We do | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
things at the same time, we do agriculture, sanitation. You don't | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
think you get in the way of Governments? I think children dying | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
is not a good thing. I don't think any mother wants to see her | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
children die. These vaccines are about saving those lives. | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
accusations not you think it is a good thing, no-one thinks it is a | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
good thing that children die. have been dying, only with the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
generosity we saw today, only by getting the prices down will their | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
lives be saved. If we spent more of our time, in developing public | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
health programmes. One of the concerns we have, much like MSF, is | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
we are seeing public health and public interests sidelined, over | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
these technocratic solution, in the instance of vaccinations they | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
favour big pharma, in the interests of when we are looking at another | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
development which I know you look in, we are looking at solution that | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
is favours big agri solutions rather than small. There is a bid | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
price, lowest price for vaccines comes in, vaccines are public | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
health, they are the centre of public health, they are the | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
greatest victory of public health in awful history, that is why we | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
are down from 20 million dying a year. There is a question here of | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
accountability too, Governments are accountable to their citizens, they | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
win power, they lose power by the judgments they make. Who are you | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
accountable to when you decide to make these, what everyone agrees | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
are well meant interventions? Anyone who buys a product, if you | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
buy a car, if you buy a house, you're exercising, you are taking | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
your success and expressing your values. My values are that all the | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
wealth I have should go back to society, and it should help the | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
very poorest. And as I looked at all the ways to help out the | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
poorest, vaccinations rose to the top of the list as the way to | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
change their lives. The kids who live, if they don't get sick, their | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
brains fully develop and they can achieve their potential. This is a | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
pretty clear win and the fact that yes, Malaria research is being done | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
now, and vaccines are being delivered, that's a great thing. | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
you worry that, why the western Governments or western | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
philanthropists like Bill Gates are making judgments on your behalf? | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
They are not making judgments on behalf of the developing world. The | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
developing world countries are co- financing these vaccines, the price | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
of these vaccines. The health budgets are up, they have targets | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
of 15%, Rwanda is past 15%, other Governments are coming up. And yes | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
it is true that we must invest in roads and agriculture, and in food | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
security, and Governments are doing that, but our people must be alive, | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
the children must be alive to enjoy these fruits, that is the | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
importance of vaccination. I want to ask you one further question, | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
Andrew Witty, it is about a potential conflict of interest here, | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
drug companies such as yourselves, which are both supplying medicines | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
or vaccines and sitting on the board which makes judgments about | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
whether they should be supplied, that is a conflict of interest | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
isn't it? No, GSK used to have a seat on the GAVI board, we have | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
rotated off it, there are two industry seats on the GAVI board, | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
we have come off somebody else is on. The GAVI board, when you look | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
around the table, almost everyone has a vested interest, you are | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
either a potential supplier or recipient or potential delivery | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
agency. Everybody around that table, more or less has a vested interest. | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
What is clear with the gay the GAVI board operates, is if anything spe | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
- the way the GAVI board operates, if anything comes up the member | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
leaves the meet, of course. The balance here is we don't end up in | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
a situation where you don't have any expertise around the table. If | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
people are talking about the art of the impossible without any | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
knowledge of what actually goes on. Having somebody there is important, | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
I think this would pass any scrutiny over whether or not these | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
people can assert any undue influence, I'm sure they do not. | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
Thank you Deborah Doane. Finally a journalist and former speech | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
writing for David Cameron, the question does aid work, is it worth | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
all this time and money, and in the long run does it help those in need, | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
what is your pitch? I do agree with Mr Gates that vaccination is | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
probably about the best use of aid and Malaria research, that is right. | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
I have a more fundamentalish problem with the whole issue of aid | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
- fundamental issue with the whole issue of aid. Countries getting | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
their aid needs, and not having a need to respond to the needs with | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
the people there. We are breaching accountability. Harvard Medical | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
School have shone when you put money into health services health | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
spending declines, in places like Rwanda and Ethiopia, British aid is | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
fund ago Government that is sending hit men here, on top of that, | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
British aid fund add media council that bans independent newspapers | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
and an Electoral Commission that stopped independent challenges, all | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
these self-appointed saviours are a problem and the reason why we keep | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
hearing western voices always the voices for aid, not African voices, | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
unless they are involved in the industry, because the image of calf | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
is being destroyed by aid, people see Africa as a supplicant, rather | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
than in the fast-growing and changing place where six of the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
fastest-growing economies are there. Let's deal with the last point | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
freshest in our mind first, do you worry about who is driving this | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
whole aid enterprise? politically elected Governments are | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
by far the biggest donors here. And so politicians like David Cameron, | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
they make a choice, based on what they think the policies should be | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
in, the voters will eventually get to weigh in, just like in many | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
other countries. What about this question of helping to support | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
repressive regimes? Certainly vaccination, it is quite a stretch | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
to say it supports repressive regimes, or maybe they should | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
refuse the aid. That isn't what I was saying, I was saying British | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
aid, not your aid, British aid has directly gone to repressive regimes, | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
that is very different from the sort of things you are doing, there | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
is an issue about that fact. When we decide to save children in a | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
country, we don't look at what the Government has done and say they | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
are not a nice Government. We are willing to fund vaccination for all | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
the children of the world, independent of what is going on | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
with that Government. Richard Sezibera, you are Rwandan, aren't | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
you? You stand accused in all of this to a degree? It is not true | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
that the Rwandan Government sent hit squads all over the world. | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
was Scotland Yard that said they were. I find the discourse a bit | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
dispier iting, on the one hand, rb disspiriting, on the one hand, the | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
British Government, on the other hand regime, the discourse of | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
people who look at Africa and the developing world as if we do not | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
have universal values. And of course, if there is a repressive | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
regime, the people in that country, will rise up against their leaders, | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
through a democratic process. if your Government is, the entire | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
edifice of your country is being supported by western aid, there is | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
less income bancy on you as a Government to render yourself | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
accountable to our citizens. It is not correct that a Government | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
should be supported entire by the western world. My own belief and | :25:31. | :25:40. | |
the belief of many African is we should use aid to get and win our | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
wean ourselves off aid. It is the quality of the aid, the aid must | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
come in to fund a country-owned, country-designed-country-run | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
programme, the more you do that the better. The accountability for | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
delivery must be put where it belongs, on the shoulders of the | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
leaders of these countries. If they can't, then they have to answer for | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
it. You are entirely comfortable with the way this whole thing | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
operates are you? I share Bill's view to a large degree. You have | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
never had anxieties about the dependency culture or the image of | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
Africa? On aid as a general concept I would share some of the questions. | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
It is important when you talk about aid in the bigger sense. When you | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
focus on vaccine, next to washing your hands, it is the single | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
biggest health care intervention in history. When you go to villages, | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
who have only just received their first solar-powered fridge, and as | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
a result for the first time people have been vaccinated against basic | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
illnesses and diseases that are killing children all the time. When | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
you see that happen on the ground it is really difficult to walk away | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
interest that and say we shouldn't be trying to do this more often | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
than in the past. Can I finish with you Bill Gates, on a personal note, | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
everyone in the world knows who you are, and everyone in the world | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
almost uses your products in some way or another. Do you hope this | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
sort of initiative is what you will be remembered for? I don't care to | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
be remembered at all. I do hope that we can get that number of nine | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
million children a year who die down to seven million then five | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
million then three million. There is some wonderful things in the | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
world, today was a big day, the pledging to buy these two new | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
vaccines. We're partnered with GSK on Malaria vaccine with luck, in | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
three years, will be in a position to start delivering that. The | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
advances in technology should not just be for the richest, they, in | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
fact, we should tilt our work to help the poorest. And that's why | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
I'm excited about this second career that I have got. | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
Thank you all very much indeed. Quite apart from the Gates' money, | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
the British Government today committed another �800 million of | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
tax-payers' money to be spent on aid or vaccines specifically. The | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
Prime Minister said that although just be every other area of | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
spending is being cut, it was morally right to spend more on | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
international development. The International Development Secretary, | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
Andrew Mitchell, is here. First a few facts and figure about the UK | :28:14. | :28:24. | |
:28:24. | :28:33. | ||
Almost every Government department is seeing cuts. | :28:33. | :28:43. | |
:28:43. | :29:02. | ||
The biggest recipients of British The International Development | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
Secretary is, as I mentioned here. David Cameron said today that it | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
was right to increase your budget, the international development | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
budget, at the time that other budgets were being cut, it was | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
morally the right thing to do, why? There are two key arguments, it is | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
morally the right thing to do. We live in a world where there are | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
these extraordinary discrepencies of opportunity, and our generations | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
have a chance to really do something about it. The pledging | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
conference today is, I think, a very good example of that. It is | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
not just it is morally right, it is very much in our national interest. | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
This is �300 or more from every household in the country, at a time, | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
when the services they need are being cut, and when they themselves | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
are finding life very often very tough? I don't pretend this is an | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
easy issue, as a proportion of our expenditure, it is relatively small, | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
it is under 1% of national income, I think a country like our's can | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
afford that. If you look at the generosity of people in Britain. | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
For example, in Comic Relief, which over the last two times is against | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
a background of much more serious economic situation, people have | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
been more generous each time. Absolutely, they have a choice in | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
the matter. They have no choice about whether they pay their taxes, | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
they pay their taxes, convention has it, in order to be defended by | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
the Armed Forces, educated in the schools and universities, and all | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
the rest of it. Instead of which they see all of those being cut, | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
and you, by force of law, taking more money to spend in places like | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
Africa? I think the national development budget does have a huge | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
impact. It also impacts on people's security. The point you have just | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
made about defending the state. Our security is not only defend bid | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
guns and tanks, but also training the police in Afghanistan and | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
building up glofrpbance structures in the Middle East, and getting | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
girls into school. It is not just a moral issue, but also very much in | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
our national interest. How much money are we giving to Uganda? | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
Something like �70 million. Is it true the President of Uganda spent | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
�30 million on an executive jet? That happened under the last | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
Government. I don't agree with that, it is the wrong use of the money. | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
Why do we keep on giving it to them? If Governments under us spend | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
money in that way, then we will take action to seek to stop it, in | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
doing, that of course, we want to try to make sure we don't end up | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
afflicting the poorest people in the countries. You want to make the | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
Government more accountable, more transparent. What are we doing | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
giving money to India when it can afford a space programme? India is | :31:52. | :32:00. | |
a development paradox, there are more poor people in India than the | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
whole sub-Saharan continent. For the first time India is not the | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
largest programme. The money is spent in the poorest areas, up to | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
half of it will be on pro--poor, private sector development. Yet the | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
Government of industry chooses to spend money on a space programme? | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
The British development efforts in India, which is a tiny proportion | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
of what the Indians themselves, under 1%, what they themselves | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
spend on education and health care, has a colossal effect and benefit | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
for India. As part of Britain's programme and partnership with | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
india, which was greatly rejuvinated by the Prime Minister | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
last year, the development programme play as small but | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
important part. We give them less than they give to other countries | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
in assistance? That is not true, the Indian, what you would refer to | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
the Indian aid programme is not the aim as what we would call an aid | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
programme, it is a credit system for business. You are spliting | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
hairs? You can't compare them, they are not the same. Isn't it true, | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
people like you belong to a generation that look back on Live | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
Aid as being a marvellous thing and the Gleneagles conference as a | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
marvellous thing and you are out of step with the public, it might have | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
been true eight years ago but not any more? I don't think that is | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
true, the point is our generation have the ability to make a real | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
change in the world. There is a new state start anything Sudan, south | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
Sudan, the girl born today in south Sudan has more chance of dying | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
having a baby than completing primary school. We can do something | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
about this, I'm so glad that the conference today on Global Alliance | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
for Vaccines and Immunisation can have a real impact on children | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
overseas. You have talked about this country becoming an aid | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
superpower, some would characterise it as you would used to | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
characterise the Labour Party as being very generous with other | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
people's money, why is it we have decided to do that, and yet the | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
Italians, the Germans and the Japanese have not decided to go | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
that route? When I say the we were a development superpower. In just | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
the same way as America is a military superpower, but because of | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
the brilliant leadership of Britain around the world in development, we | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
have a huge impact on tackling these dreadful diseases and | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
difficulties, saving lives which we have been talking about. I think it | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
is part of the British DNA to be generous to those who are much less | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
fortunate than we are, the extraordinary discrepencies of | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
wealth which we used earlier, and opportunity. We can do something | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
about that, and we will. Andrew Mitchell thank you very much. | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
Now if you were watching last week you perhaps saw an interview with a | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
London woman who has been presented, completely without her knowledge, | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
to the world as a lesbian living in Damascus. She was pretty cross | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
about her picture being used, it was said to be skaurt measure to | :35:05. | :35:12. | |
protect a Syrian dissident. It turns out not was she not the real | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
author of A Gay Girl In Damascus, the real author was not gay or in | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
Damascus. Nor a girl. | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
Out of a closed country, racked by revolt, came out what sounded like | :35:27. | :35:37. | |
:35:37. | :35:42. | ||
Amina Abdallah Araf al Omari reported in her blog the brutal | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
supression of pro-democracy As the violence continued, she also | :35:50. | :36:00. | |
:36:00. | :36:04. | ||
She was apparently forced into hiding, and then a week ago | :36:04. | :36:14. | |
:36:14. | :36:18. | ||
Thousands joined a Facebook site, demanding her release. As newt | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
night discovered last week, the picture she used of herself | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
actually belonged to a London woman, who is now thinking of suing over | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
the theft of her identity. I never met Amina I'm not part of her blog, | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
not friends with her. It's absolutely astonishing that | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
somebody has been using my pictures and obviously campaigning with my | :36:42. | :36:50. | |
face on it. Today, a married American student | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
at Edinburgh University admitted he was the A Gay Girl In Damascus all | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
along. There are a lot of people who would | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
be perfectly within their rights punching me in the jaw. He's a | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
Middle East activist who began blogging as Amina several years ago, | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
long before the Arab uprisings? intention was never to hurt anyone, | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
in fact, the only intentions I had, besides my own vanity was to draw | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
attention to what I believe are important issues, and second, I | :37:27. | :37:33. | |
amsomebody who feels guilt a lot. I'm feeling incredibly guilty about | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
hurting people and harming causes that I personally, as a human being, | :37:37. | :37:45. | |
believe in. This photo, used by Amina, that | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
previously appeared on a site belonging to McMaster's wife, was a | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
trail of clue that led other bloggers to the truth. The real | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
clue there was the photo on Amina's blog had a wider field of view than | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
the photo on Britta's website, that suggested to us that the person who | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
put it on Amina's blog had access to the original image. | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
Evidence of popular anger in Syria, from where foren reporters are | :38:17. | :38:27. | |
:38:27. | :38:29. | ||
banned comes, in - where foren reporters are banned, some think | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
that hoaxers like McMaster has brought a wider audience. It has | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
pointed out certain social issues that the majority of Syrian | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
bloggers wouldn't touch on, like homosexuality, for obvious social | :38:44. | :38:53. | |
and religious reasons. I don't think there is any bad motives | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
behind the bloggers and the events he has given are daily events that | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
political dissidents and homosexuals go through and face | :39:01. | :39:08. | |
under the regime of Bashar al-Assad. But among those deceived was this | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
Canadian woman who said she was Amin's girlfriend and couldn't | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
sleep for worrying about her. difficult to know where she is, and | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
who took her. Something the hoaxer has done - | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
some think the hoaxer has done wider harm too? This hoax has | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
brought damage to the credibility that people who need to use a cloak | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
of anonymity and pseudonyms to communicate publicly. That has cast | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
a doubt on their ability to be heard when they are really in need. | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
When real Syrian people, or real Arab individuals are expressing | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
themselves, and not somebody who is, in a sense, adopting that as drag | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
for his own purposes. Today, refugees continued to arrive | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
in neighbouring Turkey, after the army retook the rebellious town of | :40:04. | :40:11. | |
Al-Shughour. As for the Gay Girl in Damascus, what began as a possible | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
well-meaning attempt to highlight oppression, has ended up | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
distracting attention from the real horror of Syria now. | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Details of concessions in the Government's health bill have been | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
announced today, and our political editor is with us. | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
What are they? Strictly speaking we have to wait until tomorrow to get | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
the Government's response. What happened today was that Professor | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
Steve Field, the senior GP, asked by the Government eight weeks ago | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
to go around the country with a team of health exports to work out | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
what to do about the bill, came back and delivered his report. Much | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
of it is long and complicated and very difficult to understand. | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
Essentially, what he is saying is there will probably be some delay | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
in certain places to the implementation of the GP-led | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
consortia, that will be commissions health care in future. Perhaps the | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
most fundamental change that he's recommending is there should be a | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
lot less emphasis on competition in the health service in future, and | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
in the health and social care Bill and in particular, that it should | :41:16. | :41:23. | |
not be the primary purpose of the new Healthwatch dog, Monitor, to | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
consider competition, competition is important, but it shunting of | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
overriding importance. Has this done the trick? It has, there is | :41:34. | :41:43. | |
nothing like the huge rift within the coalition we had a month ago. | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
The Liberal Democrats have had a successful neating with Nick Clegg, | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
they believe there is a Vic auto- meeting with Nick Clegg, they | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
believe there is a victory here. The Health Secretary is | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
sufficiently happy not to resign. He will play a role in explaining | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
what the Government will do. Tomorrow we will also be hearing | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
from groups of health service professionals, some of whom will be | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
expressing their satisfaction. Where David Cameron has so far | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
failed, though, politically, is in public opinion, an opinion poll for | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
ITN tonight shows more than half the British public don't trust | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
Cameron on the NHS. Was this ever a real issue, is it about substantive | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
matters in the NHS, or is there some tension between the Liberal | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
Democrats and the Tories? There are substantive matters in the NHS. My | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
own view of the proposal that is have come up from Steve Field today, | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
I was at the briefing s basically where the Government went wrong on | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
the bill is in presentation and communication, that indeed was a | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
lot of what Professor Field was saying. In the language they used, | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
he argues that actually they frightened them who didn't need to | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
be frightened. A lot of what he's recommending is the language should | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
be changed, that certain emphasis should be applied here and less | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
there, and that was much more likely to satisfy the people in the | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
health service who were deeply worried about all these proposals. | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
That sounds like ineptness? To a degree. Some people in Downing | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
Street would argue in terms of presenting this bill, Andrew | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
Lansley has shown a certain ineptness in terms of communicating | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
it. Interestingly, where the Liberal Democrats won't be able to | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
claim a victory is what happens to the bill next. Nick Clegg was | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
arguing it ought now to go back to the Commons committee, where it was | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
before, the Government is not going to do that, it is going to say, no, | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
proceed as before, to report stage, even though that report stage may | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
take up to a couple of weeks. have lost the public now! Tomorrow | :43:44. | :43:54. | |
:43:54. | :44:17. | ||
That's all from Newsnight tonight. That's all from Newsnight tonight. | :44:17. | :44:27. | |
:44:27. | :44:50. | ||
Goodnight. More rain coming in for the week. | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
Tomorrow is said to be a belter after a chilty start, a lot of | :44:54. | :45:02. | |
sunshine to look forward to. There will be sudden cloud building | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
up. It won't threaten rain for the most part. | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
The low 20s widely and the winds light. A feel-good day. Down across | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
the far South-West of England, it will cloud up with drizzle by the | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
end of the afternoon, principally across Cornwall. Elsewhere across | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
the UK, no such threat. Dry across Wales, with well-broken cloud and | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
sunny spells, and for Northern Ireland as well. Temperatures here | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
up to 16-17. Up across Scotland, the north of Scotland, winds will | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
be lighter than they were today. And the worst of the wet weather | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
will have cleared away from the Northern Isles, things settling | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
down across the northern parts. A fine prospect then, for most of us | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
across northern areas fine. More cloud across the west of the UK, | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
maybe the odd shower, the theme is for it to stay predominantly dry on | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
Wednesday, although cloudier than Tuesday. Wednesday's probably the | :45:59. | :46:03. |