20/06/2011 Newsnight


20/06/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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The President of Syria claims he's open to reform, and no-one but his

:00:11.:00:15.

supporters believes him. With independent foreign reporters

:00:15.:00:20.

banned, we go inside Syria undercover, and find a protest

:00:20.:00:24.

movement that believes there is no going back, the dictatorship has to

:00:25.:00:29.

fall. We find out what life is like inside the country. We talk to one

:00:29.:00:34.

of Al-Assad's ministers about how he's a much misunderstood man. Also

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tonight: Lots of different bikini waxing and

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intimate waxing that cover all sorts of styles that cover hair or

:00:43.:00:47.

diamantes. What makes a woman decide her

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natural body hair is something to get rid of. How do you become a

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feminist in a highly sexual ised society. Our guests talk porn,

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butic about hair and who's exploiting who.

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Facing another four years in the wilderness, the Labour Party casts

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about for a big idea and comes up with something called Blue Labour,

:01:10.:01:13.

the man behind the philosophy face as critic from the Labour front

:01:14.:01:23.
:01:24.:01:24.

bench. If the President of Syria thought a

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few words about his regime, being mother and father to the people,

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would persuade the world he's not a tyrant, he was wrong. The European

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Union said vague talk about possible reform wasn't enough, and

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plans more sanctions. There is noticably no talk of military

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action. In a minute we will talk to Sue Lloyd Robert who is has just

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come back from Syria where she was undercover. First our diplomatic

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editor? What did he say? This is the third speech he has made since

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the crisis started. To our eyes his performance in the speech ace peers

:01:59.:02:04.

a little surreal. He wants - appears a little surreal. He wants

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to radiate the man in control, he smiles and makes an effort to looks

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a possible - to looks a calm as possible. He referred to the

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opponents of the regime as saboteurs, he said he wasn't going

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to dwell on. That he added this thought. TRANSLATION: What do we

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say about this media and political pressure, what about the advanced

:02:30.:02:34.

phone West see spread across Syria, what do we say about all the

:02:34.:02:38.

falsification we have seen. We can't say it is a charitable cause,

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that is conspiracy, and we won't waste our time on it.

:02:43.:02:49.

So, he sketched out the conspiracy he has mentioned before "new

:02:49.:02:58.

technology", "new media" all of. That he went on to open a new

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nuanced idea, he appeared to extend a hand to the Muslim Brotherhood,

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he talked about when we were violently suppressed in the past,

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very rare to hear that from a leader like this. There seems to be

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a reaction to pressure from Turkey in particular, he seemed to be

:03:18.:03:22.

trying to create the impression that he had been involved in a

:03:22.:03:25.

wide-ranging consultation with the Syrian people and he had learned a

:03:25.:03:30.

lot along the way. TRANSLATION: covered many topic, some were local

:03:30.:03:34.

issues, some national, my priorities are topics that affect

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the vast majority of people. The people have expressed, in their

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meetings, their anger, mixed with love, because they felt their

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country had strayed away from them. Either through some policy, or some

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practices. I have seen much suffering, some to do with income,

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and standards of living, and some to do with dignity of citizens.

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have the people of Syria reacted to this speech? We have got used to

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the fact that Friday is the main day for demonstration, because

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people naturally congregate in mosques throughout this trouble in

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Siria. But the President's speech actually managed to create massive

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demonstrations on a Monday. There were extensive demonstrations in

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Damascus, as we can see from the Vic tures, and also in the - the

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picture, also in the port cities. People seemed angered at the term

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"somebodyures" to describe the opposition. What about

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international reaction to the speech? The international community

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is in a difficult and interesting position, we know attempted to get

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a new UN Security Council measure through have faltered because of

:04:47.:04:53.

China and Russia. The EU is looking at new sanctions against Syria, we

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have been talking about that today. They would aim to wind up the

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economic pain. We also know that Turkey, that considers itself to

:05:00.:05:06.

have given President Assad quite a few chances is considering more

:05:06.:05:10.

robust action. The conservative interpretation is they want to send

:05:10.:05:14.

troops to seal the border with Syria to stop the refugees coming

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across. Syria has said it will use its troops to seal the border.

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There are also rumours flying about the Middle East that Turkey would

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like to enter Syria and create some sort of safe haven or buffer zone

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there. Finding out what's happening in Syria is no easy matter, western

:05:31.:05:35.

journalist business and large have been prevented from openly

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reporting from Syria, Sue Lloyd Roberts has been in Damascus

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undercover, what is it like? Very tense, there is paranoia among the

:05:46.:05:52.

security force, that makes it very difficult for ordinary people,

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doubly difficult for a foreigner, we are all considered a spy. Anyone

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found carrying a camera, it is similar to carrying hard drugs or a

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gun in this country, it could end you up in prison. It is difficult.

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How representative were the people you met? I met a good

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representation of people, from opposition MPs, to students and

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young people out on the streets. The first clip we will show is of

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the grand old man of the Syrian opposition.

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After all that happened, after 1,300 at least, lost their lives,

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for the revolution, and after 1,000 injured, and tens of thousands

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arrested, and now we say there is no way to go back to the old

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situation. Syria is belonging to the Syrians, Syria does not belong

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to the Al-Assad family. This, let's say, the Al-Assad family, forever,

:06:56.:07:00.

should have been stopped. It is enough. The Syrians would never

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accept it any more. Riad Seif, who has been campaigning for a

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democratic Syria for decades. But as he points out, after all the

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sacrifice, he's saying now there is really no going back. I spoke to

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very ordinary people, our next clip is from a mother who simply is

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fighting for a Syria in which she wants her daughter to grow up.

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TRANSLATION: I don't want my daughter to grow up like I did,

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having always to say something in one place, something else in

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another. I want her to be free. I want her to say what she wants,

:07:34.:07:44.
:07:44.:07:44.

where she wants, when she wants. My daughter watches the TV, and she

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hears us chanting, "people want the downfall of the regime ". In her

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innocence, she repeated this in school, and the teacher got really

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angry, and shouted at her, and told her she had to praise the President.

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She was upset and confused. That woman, like many people I

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interviewed had her back to the camera. She was one of the street

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protestor, she says all she would like to do is to be able to talk to

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people, in front of cameras, to talk to the world. She was in

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hiding like many of the people I spoke to. From what you saw of

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people in Damascus, is Al-Assad's speech going to be enough? They

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won't be at all impressed. He has made such promised before, they

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come to nothing. People say they will fight to the end now. When I

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said who is winning, without a moment's hesitation the people said

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the people are. There is no going back, they are going to bring this

:08:46.:08:48.

regime back down. Thank you very much.

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Tomorrow, you will see Sue's full report from inside Al-Assad's Syria.

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A short while ago I spoke to President Assad's political adviser

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from Damascus. Why are there so many unhappy

:09:06.:09:12.

people in Syria? Well, to my view today, many people were very happy

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with the speech of the President. It laid down a vision for a new

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Syria, for political participation, for national dialogue, for

:09:25.:09:29.

reviewing or reviewing the constitutions. I think it depends

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who you are covering, if you cover the whole people of Syria, or the

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two sides of the spectrum, you will see that many people are happy.

:09:39.:09:43.

you saying there are no demonstrations taking place, no

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killings taking place, no refugeesing fleeing the country?

:09:48.:09:51.

I'm not saying - refugees fleeing the country? I'm not saying there

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is nothing like that. But I'm saying the President distinguished

:09:56.:09:59.

very clearly between demonstrators who have legitimate rights and

:09:59.:10:04.

groveances on the one hand, and between armed people, who are

:10:04.:10:09.

killing, not only ordinary citizen, but even military and police

:10:09.:10:16.

personnel. We have lost so far over 4 Hun military and police personnel

:10:16.:10:26.
:10:26.:10:33.

due - 4 Hun military and police personal. There seems to have about

:10:33.:10:39.

the lost of 1,400 people, who did most of the killing? The President

:10:39.:10:45.

has said today the loss of one soul is too much, and no person is

:10:46.:10:50.

guilty of killing Syrian, we discovered a huge amount of

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armments, we discovered terrorist and armed groups in the country. By

:10:53.:10:58.

the way, this has nothing to do with the demonstrators and with the

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legitimate rights of the Syrian people, which are acknowledged and

:11:02.:11:12.
:11:12.:11:13.

which have become the guideline for the movement ahead. Can we continue

:11:13.:11:19.

the question of who killed all the people, 1,400 people dead, how many

:11:19.:11:24.

people have been arrested for the murders? Tens of people have been

:11:24.:11:29.

arrested, some people have been brought to court, some people are

:11:29.:11:33.

still being investigated. We are trying to get all the help we can

:11:33.:11:39.

from the Syrian people to bring everybody to task. It is our

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interest, it is again our values to have people killed in such numbers.

:11:48.:11:52.

In the particularly well known case of the 13-year-old boy, from the

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village of Sidon, this is a boy abducted whose body was returned to

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his family about two weeks, it was covered in burns, it was shot in

:12:03.:12:07.

each arm and his penis had been cut off, who do you suspect was

:12:07.:12:13.

responsible for that? I'm sorry to say that the legal doctor in Syria

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and all the investigations proved that the stories promoted by

:12:18.:12:23.

multinational media was very far from the truth. The boy was killed

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on a demonstration, he was not abducted, he was collateral damage

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on the street, and the story that the international media marketed

:12:37.:12:41.

has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of what happened, and we

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have a DVD, if you are interested, to send to the BBC about the true

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story of the child. We put it on our national television five times

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at least. As you know, the family have posted

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a video of the body, and it shows a body that clearly had been

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subjected to torture, are you saying that was fictional was it?

:13:04.:13:09.

No, it wasn't the family who posted that video, the family met with

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President Assad, and met with the Syrian authorities, and they be a

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solved themselves from all the stories that were fabricated about

:13:17.:13:21.

the boy. Now going back to the President's speech today, in which

:13:21.:13:29.

he promised reform, how will we know this reform has happened?

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you would be kind enough to read the entire speech. I have done so

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I'm asking you how we will know the reform has happened? Well, because

:13:41.:13:45.

the President has laid down what are the things that should be done.

:13:45.:13:53.

He has said that national dialogue is the title of the stage, and we

:13:53.:13:58.

will have the law for political parties, electoral law, new media

:13:58.:14:02.

law, we will review and rewrite the constitution, if needed, all this

:14:02.:14:07.

will be done by the national dialogue, with the time frame, that

:14:07.:14:10.

President Assad said all it should be achieved by the end of the year.

:14:10.:14:15.

By the end of the year you would know that all these things had been

:14:15.:14:19.

achieved. Can you imagine a Syria whose President is not a member of

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the Al-Assad family? Of course I can. Not a member of the Ba'ath

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Party? Of course I can. When we are heading for multipolitical party

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system, we are heading for democracy, we're heading for

:14:36.:14:39.

political participation, anyone who is elected by the Syrian people

:14:39.:14:43.

could be the President of Syria. despite the fact that in the past

:14:43.:14:48.

he has promised reform and it hasn't happened, this time he's

:14:48.:14:54.

serious, is he? In the past he was serious too, but the steps that

:14:54.:15:01.

were taken were not noticed or were not seen to be effective. This time

:15:01.:15:04.

the President, if you read his speech, he has spoken about his

:15:04.:15:08.

meeting with thousands of Syrian people. The President said this has

:15:08.:15:13.

been the most important experience, because we know now the weaknesses

:15:13.:15:17.

and the loopholes in our political, economic and social system, it is

:15:17.:15:24.

certainly in our interests and our desire to address these weaknesses

:15:24.:15:27.

and loophole, this is what we are going to do. Would you say your

:15:27.:15:32.

President was loved by the people? I would. I mean, you don't have to

:15:32.:15:38.

have 100%, you know, all Presidents in all democracies are elected by

:15:38.:15:45.

50 or 60%. I would say our President has a larger margin than

:15:45.:15:52.

this. Loved by about 90% of the people perhaps? Let's say 51,

:15:52.:15:54.

that's enough to be elected! Thank you very much indeed.

:15:55.:16:01.

Thank you. Now, if it was ever true, as Tammy

:16:01.:16:04.

Wynette sang, that sometimes it is hard to be a woman, it is true no

:16:04.:16:07.

longer. Difficulty seems to be a permanent condition. Expected to

:16:07.:16:12.

work like men, but to present themselves for sex as hairless as a

:16:12.:16:16.

child, to see their children brought up in a highly sexualised

:16:16.:16:22.

environment, some how to be mother, breadwinner and porn star, it may

:16:22.:16:26.

not be as oppressive before the days of gender equality, it is

:16:26.:16:33.

certainly more confusing. # Got to do my best to please her

:16:33.:16:38.

# Just because she's a living doll When TV images first invaded our

:16:38.:16:44.

living rooms, it was all so nice. There had been mixed reviews ever

:16:44.:16:49.

since. Last Thursday evening we sat as a family and we saw a programme

:16:49.:16:53.

that started at 6.35, it was the dirtiest programme that I have seen

:16:53.:17:03.
:17:03.:17:05.

for a very long time. # Ladies here we go

:17:05.:17:11.

We can guess what steely and shockable Mary Whitehouse would

:17:11.:17:15.

have made of all this, a wallpaper of sexual images that surround

:17:16.:17:21.

children, said the latest report, hopefully suggesting ways to turn

:17:21.:17:26.

off the perceived tide of filth. Although he's fighting wars abroad,

:17:26.:17:31.

on this point the Prime Minister is doing battle at home.

:17:31.:17:35.

You can't cut kids off from the modern world, no-one should try, we

:17:35.:17:38.

can help parents to stop their children having inappropriate

:17:38.:17:46.

things put in front of them at too early an age.

:17:46.:17:53.

Sex has always sold. Spare rib feminists railed at male advertiser

:17:53.:17:57.

who is use such images to flog all and Sunday dree item, but who

:17:57.:18:02.

should they target now, when women themselves embrace the look once

:18:02.:18:07.

confined to the top shelf, but now for sale on the high street. It has

:18:07.:18:11.

always been there, and started to filter into every day life probably

:18:11.:18:17.

more and more. As one thing becomes more acceptable, then it is

:18:17.:18:22.

skreeping up to the next level without - creeping up to the next

:18:22.:18:28.

level without people notice - noticing it happening. It is like

:18:28.:18:31.

films and special effects, it is not shocking because we are used to

:18:31.:18:35.

seeing it, it is like the sexual imagery being portrayed in the

:18:35.:18:40.

media today. There was no need for the watershed when the Palladium

:18:40.:18:47.

starred in Sunday schedules. The modern day equivalent looks and

:18:47.:18:53.

sounds very different. Has the media changed, or have women? There

:18:53.:18:58.

is a new trend, rapidly growing in popularity, which I had not heard

:18:58.:19:02.

of until this morning. But I'm going to get to the heart of it.

:19:02.:19:12.

Make that the bottom. This is the world of intimate

:19:12.:19:17.

waxing, where boring old butic about hair is replaced with sparkly

:19:17.:19:27.
:19:27.:19:28.

- butic about hair is replaced with sparklely jewels.

:19:28.:19:32.

If I walked through the door and asked to be have a jazzled, what

:19:32.:19:39.

would happen? You would - vajazzled, what would happen? You would go

:19:39.:19:43.

into the treatment rooms and you would be given a black book which

:19:43.:19:47.

has a number of descriptive types of waxing with pictures, that shows

:19:47.:19:52.

you all types of styles. You would pick out the style that suits the

:19:52.:19:59.

way you feel and your mood for the day, really. This intimate wax is

:19:59.:20:09.

this about women being strong or weak? I don't think you can depict

:20:09.:20:14.

it either or, it is a grooming regime women have undertaken over

:20:14.:20:20.

the years. Who is it for? It is for mums, grandma, powerful women in

:20:20.:20:27.

the boardroom. Is it for men? for men. Is it to please men?

:20:27.:20:32.

certainly in some instances, women feel they prefer to be more well

:20:32.:20:39.

groomed if they are going on their hot date. Let's see the

:20:39.:20:47.

vaingjazling in action, Fiona is - vagjazzilng in action, Fiona is

:20:47.:20:53.

giving it a go. We can't show you it, this is BBC Two! What brings

:20:53.:21:00.

you here? It is a pain-free wax, it is nice for myself, clean and

:21:00.:21:05.

hygienic, keeping clean for the beach and summer. Nice for your

:21:05.:21:09.

husband? It is nice, but I do it for myself. One woman's treat is

:21:09.:21:13.

another woman's cause for alarm? Control is the problem. Women are

:21:13.:21:16.

always expected to be in control of their sexuality, some how present

:21:16.:21:23.

themselves as sexually continent, actually, vaingjazling which is

:21:23.:21:31.

what it has - vajazzling, is like a castration, you make it look like a

:21:31.:21:35.

child's genitals and you put crystals on, it looks like you have

:21:35.:21:40.

been prepped for surgery by Dr Bling. Assaulted by highly

:21:40.:21:44.

sexualised images whilst beset by the same old issues, modern

:21:44.:21:49.

feminism has been dismissed as paradoxical, perhaps that is why

:21:49.:21:53.

the Slut Walks, marching across cities everywhere are getting

:21:53.:21:56.

attention. They have given women a rallying cry.

:21:56.:22:06.
:22:06.:22:14.

With us in the studio to discuss she is issues are my guests.

:22:14.:22:20.

Why are women doing this? Can I say first of all I'm happy that he have

:22:20.:22:24.

an episode of Newsnight where we are talking about women's John

:22:24.:22:28.

Lewises with tiny jewel ones it, it is my favourite episode of

:22:28.:22:32.

Newsnight already. That is saying something I bet! There is variety

:22:33.:22:40.

of women doing this for different reasons, firstly fashion, if you're

:22:40.:22:45.

bored, you see celebrities doing it. I find it odd you would remove your

:22:45.:22:51.

pubic hair and carry a dog that looks like the pubic hair. My

:22:51.:22:54.

personal idea is it is pornography, it is done for considerations of

:22:55.:22:57.

lighting. If you have your pubic hair removed you can see things

:22:57.:23:02.

better and it makes other things look bigger. Who is doing the

:23:02.:23:08.

looking? The person who is viewing the pornography, it makes

:23:08.:23:14.

everything clearer. This has come from pornography? The mainstreaming

:23:14.:23:18.

of pornography over the last two decades has infiltrated almost

:23:18.:23:23.

every aspect of our lives. From the way we keep fit through pole

:23:23.:23:28.

dancing and the beauty regime that is women undertake. So removing

:23:28.:23:35.

body hair and Jag jazzling, it is coming are from a porn - vajazzling

:23:35.:23:39.

are coming from that place. Do you think it is wrong women choose to

:23:39.:23:44.

shave off their pubic hair? It is wrong women live in a society where

:23:44.:23:49.

we are compelled to do it. Are they compelled to do it? Speaking with

:23:49.:23:52.

someone who has been with more an the average of men, I would say men

:23:52.:23:57.

prefer a bit of hair. It is a lot of pressure that women are putting

:23:57.:24:00.

on themselves rather than the men saying I want you to look porn

:24:00.:24:05.

perfect. Even when I was working as a call girl, that was by no means

:24:05.:24:11.

what everybody was doing. You would accept this is a practice which has

:24:11.:24:14.

come from the pornography industry? That is where people see it for the

:24:14.:24:21.

first time. But then, the sort of it creeping in other ways, you see

:24:21.:24:24.

somebody after showers after sport, she has had it done, you think that

:24:24.:24:28.

looks all right, I kind of like that. There also might be a status

:24:28.:24:32.

thing, if you have the time and money to do that, it is like being

:24:32.:24:36.

able to wear a very expensive car, you are walking around Virgin

:24:36.:24:40.

Active saying I have the time and money to do that. Cars are

:24:40.:24:44.

generally on display? It is a way of showing off. Who are you showing

:24:44.:24:49.

off to? In a gym, if you are in a changing room and you see other

:24:49.:24:53.

women have done it with that time. This isn't necessarily done for

:24:53.:24:57.

men? For anyone going to see it. Double bubble or show off to ladies

:24:57.:25:01.

that you have the time and money to this, and for men I watch

:25:01.:25:06.

pornography. You find it impressive women do it? No it is a terrible

:25:06.:25:11.

wast of time. Over the years from not waxs I have been able to save

:25:11.:25:18.

up for a giant 3-DTV which gives me and my family pleasure. Is it

:25:18.:25:24.

something women shouldn't do? don't believe anyone should not do

:25:24.:25:29.

anything, I think the fact it is so common and so asthetically common,

:25:29.:25:35.

they think they look lovely. object culture has had an effect on

:25:35.:25:38.

women's self-esteem and how they value themselves. The effects are

:25:38.:25:41.

felt across society, it is not just how women see themselves but how

:25:41.:25:45.

boys see themselves. Boys are starting to treat, or expect them

:25:45.:25:49.

to act like porn stars themselves, the expectation is there, that

:25:49.:25:53.

women are all too aware of. There is a certain amount of boys are

:25:53.:25:57.

very easily disabused of that notion once they start having

:25:57.:26:01.

relationships with actual women. There is a certain amount of the

:26:01.:26:06.

porn aesthetic we think of from the 80s and 90 of lollipop women with

:26:06.:26:10.

the giant implants and fake tan. That is fantasy a boy has between

:26:10.:26:15.

the ages of 12-15. When they get with real women, they want real

:26:15.:26:21.

women. Can you give us examples of the way this sexualisation of

:26:21.:26:26.

society can conditions how people behave? I actually think

:26:26.:26:29.

sexualisation is the wrong word. That implies a broad term that

:26:29.:26:35.

applies to both women and men. If we actually look closely, it is

:26:35.:26:39.

dehumanised images of women and girls being treated as sex objects.

:26:39.:26:44.

When you actually look at pornography itself, the ones that

:26:44.:26:49.

are being dehumanised are the men as much as women. You don't see the

:26:49.:26:52.

men's faces, they are a part for hire, you see the whole women, it

:26:52.:26:56.

is not necessarily the way you want to see her, but the man really is

:26:56.:27:00.

just the stunt part? Pornography is not nice, it doesn't portray anyone

:27:00.:27:06.

in a nice way, we have to remember the pornography which plugs up the

:27:06.:27:12.

Internet is relentlessly violent, relentlessly brutalised towards

:27:13.:27:18.

women. There is a real danger of tarring all erotica with all porn.

:27:19.:27:28.

So many poor arguments with "you Google the word X and therefore Y",

:27:28.:27:32.

why not Google feminist porn. don't think that is the case.

:27:32.:27:37.

Showing real women with real orgasams.

:27:37.:27:41.

I don't have a problem with an overly sexualised society, it is

:27:41.:27:48.

always the same kind of sex you see, very aggressive, American, west

:27:48.:27:56.

coast skimpy dresses, if we had a widely oversexualised cardigan

:27:56.:28:00.

culture it doesn't fit in with our country or broader notions.

:28:00.:28:05.

don't have a problem with pornography per se? I think most of

:28:05.:28:11.

it is boring. Do you worry about the way in which beyond strict

:28:11.:28:15.

pornography, everything is, not everything, but there is so much

:28:15.:28:19.

sexualisation in broader society? mean, I come from a rock and pop

:28:19.:28:24.

background, it is very noticable that all the way through the 80s up

:28:24.:28:33.

until the mid-90s women wore clothes. The fact is now Adele is

:28:33.:28:37.

the only person wearing a sleeved dress in the 21st century.

:28:37.:28:41.

making a very conscious statement? It is all that one kind of

:28:41.:28:45.

sexuality, I sit down with my daughters I make them feel sorry

:28:45.:28:48.

for them. We are sorry for them having to do their dances.

:28:48.:28:54.

Where does this leave feminism in it this very much more sexualised,

:28:54.:28:58.

apparently overtly sexualised society? Over the last five years

:28:58.:29:04.

there has been a real resurge begins in feminist actism at a

:29:04.:29:08.

grassroots levelment for many of the women coming on to the streets,

:29:08.:29:12.

coming on to the street, it is the sex object culture being pushed in

:29:12.:29:17.

their face, from the lads mags they can't avoid going into the local

:29:17.:29:21.

shop. It really is hitting women extremely hard, and it is from that

:29:21.:29:27.

we are seeing a real growth in actism. We have activist groups

:29:27.:29:34.

spreading across the country. it something like a Slut Walk, you

:29:34.:29:40.

can dress any way you like and be a feminist and still expect respect?

:29:40.:29:49.

They are making a statement that no-one takes the fault if they are

:29:49.:29:52.

raped. That is the fundamental message that women are sending out

:29:52.:29:59.

when they go on the Marches. think it is the vajazzling is that

:29:59.:30:03.

thing of one kind of sex, I'm going to straddle you and lap dance about

:30:03.:30:07.

you, nobody will laugh about it, it will be serious and it will cost

:30:07.:30:11.

money. If feminism is going to do anything t should bring the

:30:11.:30:14.

humanity back into sex and the relationships of women. That is

:30:14.:30:17.

where the current economic situation is an opportunity. All of

:30:17.:30:21.

these big producers, the Playboys of the world, which everyone talks

:30:21.:30:27.

about as if it is a giant industry, it is worth less than a tenth of

:30:27.:30:30.

what Facebook is worth. It is dying a death, people don't want to pay

:30:30.:30:35.

the money any more, for the small producer, those at home producing

:30:35.:30:39.

their own porn. That's where it is really going to gain. That is what

:30:39.:30:41.

people want, they don't want anonymous any more, they haven't

:30:41.:30:45.

the cash to spend on it. I don't think that is the case, I think the

:30:45.:30:49.

argument, the solution to the degrading body punishing

:30:49.:30:53.

pornography we see on the internet is the so-called feminist porn,

:30:53.:30:58.

that is a red herring, let's look at where the demand is, the demand

:30:58.:31:03.

is for relentlessly aggressive and woman-hating pornography. I want

:31:03.:31:07.

the statistics on this. On where the majority numbers are. That is

:31:07.:31:10.

fine and a number of women's organisations would be happy to

:31:10.:31:16.

that. Leaving aside whether it is female-

:31:16.:31:20.

exploiting porn or what you call feminist porn, if you dislike it so

:31:20.:31:24.

much what can you do about it? need to start challenging attitudes,

:31:25.:31:28.

challenging young men and boys. Would you try to ban it? I think

:31:28.:31:31.

what we don't know at the moment, we haven't had an open and honest

:31:31.:31:37.

discussion about how you do actually regulate or anything to do

:31:37.:31:42.

with pornography? The women is deciding this behind our backs.

:31:42.:31:48.

have to talk to men and boys who themselves have said in a BBC that

:31:48.:31:52.

they are worried about the pornography they are watching and

:31:52.:31:56.

the images they are seeing, and they would like action around it.

:31:56.:31:59.

It is coming from men and boys themselves. That is something

:31:59.:32:02.

really important to remember in all of this and something on which we

:32:03.:32:08.

probably all agree, men and boys are victimised by a lot of the same

:32:08.:32:13.

imagery as people see as victimising women, it reduces human

:32:13.:32:20.

desire down to a small thing, it is very orgasam focused, and finish

:32:20.:32:23.

focused. It isn't just about the girls, it isn't just are girls

:32:23.:32:29.

going out in sexy skirts r they asking for it. Them and their

:32:29.:32:32.

vajazzling, boys feel a lot of pressure too, we have to consider

:32:32.:32:37.

the wider picture. I can't believe sex ended up costing so much money.

:32:37.:32:42.

Very often when I'm with my husband afterwards we can't believe how it

:32:42.:32:47.

is free. You can't believe the massive industry about it, in the

:32:47.:32:51.

book I have put it is like paying VAT on your vagina, boys aren't

:32:51.:33:00.

having to do this, this seems unfair. We manage to make something

:33:00.:33:04.

and money out of something that is free. Boys have the pressure to

:33:04.:33:12.

look gym buffed and tanned. The Only Way Is Essex is not only about

:33:12.:33:15.

women's body it is men. The industry got in the way, suddenly

:33:15.:33:19.

this huge industry is in the way, you must dress like this and this

:33:19.:33:22.

is how you have sex and how you will look at each and say these

:33:23.:33:28.

things while having sex. People have forgotten how to natural low

:33:28.:33:34.

have sex and copying it from pornography. I feel like that about

:33:34.:33:39.

restaurant review, they have forgotten the pleasure of food.

:33:39.:33:42.

are told the market brings options around sex, it gives us a really

:33:42.:33:45.

restricted and demeaning view of sexuality, which is demeaning to

:33:45.:33:50.

both women and men. What we really need to do is take sex back from

:33:50.:33:58.

the pornographers and reclaim it from ourselves. And make it freaky,

:33:58.:34:05.

and clown porn. I need to find better clown porn.

:34:05.:34:10.

Thank you all very much. It is over a year since the Labour

:34:10.:34:14.

Party lost power, years to go to the next shot at Government, but

:34:15.:34:18.

despite the bad news the Government keeps laying on us, today it was a

:34:18.:34:22.

raft of reforms to pensions, the Labour Party refuses to get any

:34:22.:34:27.

more popular. How to turn things around? The fashionable idea at the

:34:27.:34:32.

moment is Blue Labour, in a minute, Annabel Goldie, the man behind the

:34:32.:34:41.

idea will face - the man behind the idea will face a Labour critic.

:34:41.:34:46.

There is a sense of bravery and tragedy in our position, and that

:34:46.:34:56.
:34:56.:34:58.

is one meaning of the word "blue", that links Davies with Picasso.

:34:58.:35:02.

Maurice Glasman on Blue Labour. Ever since Ed Miliband's election

:35:02.:35:08.

as lab leader, his party has been grappling with a distinctive

:35:09.:35:13.

philosophy. Blue Labour is the most notable contribution to the debate,

:35:13.:35:18.

causing controversy within the ranks. Maurice Glasman coined the

:35:18.:35:25.

term as an obvious rejoinederism by Red Toryism brought in by Philip

:35:25.:35:31.

Blond, and also in response to Cameron's Big Society. Glasman is

:35:31.:35:36.

described as a Conservative with a small "c "style of Conservatism,

:35:36.:35:43.

that aims to return the party to traditional roots in 1945 the year

:35:43.:35:47.

before Labour's great election victory. He wants to get away from

:35:47.:35:53.

Labour's old style of success. Glasman is highly regarded by the

:35:53.:35:58.

Labour leader, and illustrate bid the fact that last autumn, to some

:35:58.:36:01.

surprise, Ed Miliband made him a Labour peer. Blue Labour's ideas

:36:01.:36:05.

are set out in this book, which is available only on the Internet, and

:36:05.:36:15.
:36:15.:36:17.

called The Labour Tradition and The Politics Of Parodox.

:36:17.:36:23.

A couple of other former cabinet ministers are quoted, along with

:36:23.:36:27.

Tony Blair's former speech write. But there is also a contribution

:36:28.:36:33.

from the left-wing Labour MP John Crudass. Ed Miliband endorsed the

:36:33.:36:38.

book by writing a forward for it. In a speech last month, backed Blue

:36:38.:36:43.

Labour even further. It goes to the heart of what Maurice Glasman calls

:36:43.:36:47.

Blue Labour, some people have presented this as a nostalgic

:36:47.:36:57.
:36:57.:36:57.

vision of the past, the Labour equivalent of warm beer, bicycling

:36:57.:37:01.

maidens and for those who don't remember it was something John

:37:01.:37:09.

Major said in the 1990s. It isn't, it is a sense of what we see in our

:37:09.:37:12.

country, people being buffeted by the storm winds blowing through

:37:12.:37:16.

their lives. As his new bride might have said, something old, something

:37:16.:37:19.

new, something borrowed, something blue.

:37:19.:37:25.

But many in the party are deeply suspicious of Maurice Glasman's

:37:25.:37:29.

influence. With us now is the Shadow Minister

:37:30.:37:34.

for prisons, Helen Goodman, who has written an essay attacking Blue

:37:34.:37:37.

Labour, and the man behind it all, Maurice Glasman.

:37:37.:37:43.

How would you describe it? It is traditional Labour, it puts

:37:43.:37:47.

friendship, neighbourliness, hard work, a real commit to the care for

:37:47.:37:50.

your family at the heart of the political agenda. What is your

:37:50.:37:54.

problem with it? I think it is OK as far as it goes, but I think we

:37:54.:37:58.

know that we need a lot more than neighbourliness and commitment

:37:58.:38:06.

between our family. I think the rejection of 1945 is a really big

:38:06.:38:09.

mistake. We better explain that. You are saying the fact that the

:38:09.:38:13.

1945 Labour Government, which many in the movement consider to be the

:38:13.:38:16.

greatest Labour Government of all time, actually wasn't a Blue Labour

:38:17.:38:23.

thing at all? No that's the point. He's going right back to the

:38:23.:38:29.

beginning, the 1890s, there were some valuable things, the Co-op

:38:29.:38:33.

movement, very strong, there was a lot of really positive things in

:38:33.:38:38.

1945. I think most people in Britain have family stories that

:38:38.:38:42.

reinforce that. What was wrong with 1945? There were great things about

:38:42.:38:47.

1945, I haven't said another thing. The problem was in the

:38:47.:38:51.

nationalisation model, the workers were completely subordinate, no

:38:51.:38:57.

role for trade unions or workers in nationalised industries, very

:38:57.:39:02.

administrative. The Government that created the NHS, that was mistake?

:39:02.:39:06.

That was the wonderful thing in medicine. I'm saying by moving

:39:06.:39:10.

exclusively to the state as the provider, very central things about

:39:10.:39:14.

responsibility, about the movement and particularly about the role of

:39:14.:39:19.

workers and work in the economy, were neglected, we just need to

:39:19.:39:25.

reenstate that. You also suggest it is sort of anti-women? It is quite

:39:25.:39:34.

anti-women. There are essays in the policies of paradox that blame the

:39:34.:39:39.

breakdown of social order on women. You also suggest it is jingositic?

:39:39.:39:45.

It is. There is a sentence that says, not Maurice but another

:39:45.:39:50.

author, that says the social disorder is caused by the loss of

:39:50.:39:54.

men's entitlement. As if white men were entitled to the fruits of

:39:54.:39:59.

black people in the colonies, and the exploitation that went on in

:39:59.:40:03.

the colonies, it is an extraordinary document? This is a

:40:03.:40:06.

little ungenerous. Obviously there is a variety of voices in the book.

:40:06.:40:12.

I think that the idea that this is anti-women is just wrong, straight

:40:12.:40:15.

forwardly. You will I'm sure agree it is sometimes hard to work out

:40:15.:40:20.

precisely what it is, this interview you gave to this Italian

:40:20.:40:24.

magazine? Which I wrote in Italian, by the way. That explains something,

:40:24.:40:28.

there is a sense of bravery and tragedy in our position, that is

:40:28.:40:34.

one meaning of the word "blue" that links Myles Davies with Picasso,

:40:34.:40:41.

what is this about? Many meanings to the word "blue", one with the

:40:41.:40:46.

blue, the others is Myles Davies kind of blue, it is to get away

:40:46.:40:50.

from this optimisim that things can only get better, all you do is vote

:40:50.:40:55.

Labour and the world gets a better place, people have to take

:40:55.:40:59.

responsibility, there is struggles ahead and defeat, we have to be

:40:59.:41:04.

durable in the good, and transform to get the Labour Government we

:41:04.:41:07.

want. Wouldn't it be better to go into the next election saying

:41:07.:41:13.

things will only get worst? That is the dualistic things that the media

:41:13.:41:16.

thrives on, things can get worse and better and a lot depends on us.

:41:16.:41:21.

I would say things have got better with Labour Governments, there is

:41:21.:41:24.

criticism of the nationalisation, my mother-in-law came from a mining

:41:24.:41:28.

village, during her childhood she would frequently go to the pit when

:41:28.:41:31.

there was an accident, how many people were being killed in the

:41:31.:41:36.

pits, horrible things happened, once you got nationalisation, you

:41:36.:41:38.

got massive improvements in health and safety standard, massive

:41:39.:41:43.

improvements in people's standards of living. In my own grandmother's

:41:43.:41:47.

life, between the wars she collected subs for voluntary

:41:47.:41:50.

ambulance scheme, great for community building, but actually

:41:50.:41:56.

people preferred to dial 999. you look at the German social

:41:56.:41:58.

market that didn't go to nationalisation but determination,

:41:59.:42:05.

a representation of workers on the board, a strong apprenticeship and

:42:05.:42:10.

workers in the management firms, they had a far more durable model,

:42:10.:42:15.

far less inequality and a high modern economy. I'm talking about

:42:15.:42:19.

the sovereignty of those who did PPE in Oxford who governed the

:42:19.:42:23.

Treasury and pulled the right lever, we have to have democratic

:42:23.:42:27.

engagement in the economy. We will leave aside the reference to Ed

:42:27.:42:31.

Miliband. The new Labour world, would the state be smaller? In the

:42:32.:42:39.

Blue Labour, it wouldn't be smaller, but it would be imbeded in a set of

:42:39.:42:42.

relationships. I'm arguing that there should be a split in schools.

:42:42.:42:46.

There should be a split between parents, teachers and state in the

:42:46.:42:50.

governance of the school, that should characterise the economy.

:42:50.:42:55.

You have an anxiety about immigration? What b what is said. I

:42:55.:43:00.

have an anxiety that the white working class, some how, is

:43:00.:43:06.

privileged, in maur ris's picture of British history, that seems to

:43:06.:43:10.

me to actually misunderstand British history, it is about empire,

:43:10.:43:15.

we are a multicultural country because we had a big empire. One of

:43:15.:43:19.

the successful things we have done, more than other European countries,

:43:19.:43:22.

is build those multicultural communities so we have higher

:43:22.:43:27.

levels of tolerance in our country. I would argue the great

:43:27.:43:30.

beneficiaries of imperialism are the City of London, we are the

:43:30.:43:34.

owner and the Labour Government was a massive effort to get recognition

:43:34.:43:37.

for local workers who were dispossessed through the enclosure

:43:37.:43:41.

movement and had to fight to achieve recognition within the

:43:41.:43:45.

political system, the right to vote, democratic entitlements. This idea

:43:45.:43:50.

there is a privilege for that is not so. We have lived through an

:43:50.:43:53.

unprecedented period of immigration. I work with London citizens on

:43:53.:43:58.

living wage where I saw just how the race to the bottom look effect.

:43:58.:44:02.

There was competition between local workers and new workers and it is

:44:02.:44:06.

necessary to reengage with the common good, with the politics of

:44:06.:44:10.

the common good, doing what the Labour movement always did, bring

:44:10.:44:16.

together immigrants and locals, working-class and middle-class and

:44:16.:44:20.

engage in a general politics that can make the country better. What

:44:20.:44:24.

is your anxiety if Blue Labour continues to gain ground in the

:44:24.:44:30.

leadership of the party? I have two anxieties. One is that it ignores

:44:30.:44:35.

the internationalisation agenda, and the world, so it is all very

:44:35.:44:40.

well to have the things that he was talking about, Co-ops and

:44:40.:44:43.

industrial democracy, I'm in favour of those things, we have to attract

:44:43.:44:46.

foreign investment from abroad, you have to have Government taking a

:44:46.:44:51.

role on that. Back to the issue of the welfare state, it may be

:44:51.:44:57.

inefficient, it may be that we need to address the bureaucracy, but it

:44:57.:45:01.

gives people security and equal opportunity.

:45:01.:45:11.
:45:11.:45:11.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 61 seconds

:45:11.:46:12.

Pretty showery for the rest of the week. Positively wet across some

:46:12.:46:17.

week. Positively wet across some northern parts of the UK. Parts of

:46:17.:46:20.

Scotland will have persistent rain, keeping things cool. Further south,

:46:20.:46:25.

there will be some sunshine, pretty heavy and possibly thundery showers

:46:25.:46:30.

across parts of northern England by the afternoon. Wimbledon will

:46:30.:46:34.

probably get away with it, with largely dry day with sunshine. One

:46:34.:46:39.

or two showers blowing in across parts of South-West England and

:46:39.:46:44.

Wales. The showers shouldn't last for too long because of the breeze.

:46:44.:46:50.

Lengthy dry and bright spells inbetween. Not too warm, 14-15. Not

:46:50.:46:59.

much warmer for Northern Ireland. Dryer spells but further heavy

:46:59.:47:06.

downpours possible. Slow-moving too. No prospect for things drying out

:47:06.:47:10.

dramatically in the next few days. Wednesday looks every bit as

:47:10.:47:13.

showery across the UK. Further south there will be more showers

:47:13.:47:17.

than there were on Tuesday, rather more chance of some interruptions

:47:17.:47:20.

at Wimbledon, by the middle of the week. This is the picture on

:47:20.:47:23.

Wednesday. Starting off bright across south eastern areas, clumps

:47:23.:47:27.