20/06/2011 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

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The President of Syria claims he's open to reform, and no-one but his


supporters believes him. With independent foreign reporters


banned, we go inside Syria undercover, and find a protest


movement that believes there is no going back, the dictatorship has to


fall. We find out what life is like inside the country. We talk to one


of Al-Assad's ministers about how he's a much misunderstood man. Also


tonight: Lots of different bikini waxing and


intimate waxing that cover all sorts of styles that cover hair or


diamantes. What makes a woman decide her


natural body hair is something to get rid of. How do you become a


feminist in a highly sexual ised society. Our guests talk porn,


butic about hair and who's exploiting who.


Facing another four years in the wilderness, the Labour Party casts


about for a big idea and comes up with something called Blue Labour,


the man behind the philosophy face as critic from the Labour front


bench. If the President of Syria thought a


few words about his regime, being mother and father to the people,


would persuade the world he's not a tyrant, he was wrong. The European


Union said vague talk about possible reform wasn't enough, and


plans more sanctions. There is noticably no talk of military


action. In a minute we will talk to Sue Lloyd Robert who is has just


come back from Syria where she was undercover. First our diplomatic


editor? What did he say? This is the third speech he has made since


the crisis started. To our eyes his performance in the speech ace peers


a little surreal. He wants - appears a little surreal. He wants


to radiate the man in control, he smiles and makes an effort to looks


a possible - to looks a calm as possible. He referred to the


opponents of the regime as saboteurs, he said he wasn't going


to dwell on. That he added this thought. TRANSLATION: What do we


say about this media and political pressure, what about the advanced


phone West see spread across Syria, what do we say about all the


falsification we have seen. We can't say it is a charitable cause,


that is conspiracy, and we won't waste our time on it.


So, he sketched out the conspiracy he has mentioned before "new


technology", "new media" all of. That he went on to open a new


nuanced idea, he appeared to extend a hand to the Muslim Brotherhood,


he talked about when we were violently suppressed in the past,


very rare to hear that from a leader like this. There seems to be


a reaction to pressure from Turkey in particular, he seemed to be


trying to create the impression that he had been involved in a


wide-ranging consultation with the Syrian people and he had learned a


lot along the way. TRANSLATION: covered many topic, some were local


issues, some national, my priorities are topics that affect


the vast majority of people. The people have expressed, in their


meetings, their anger, mixed with love, because they felt their


country had strayed away from them. Either through some policy, or some


practices. I have seen much suffering, some to do with income,


and standards of living, and some to do with dignity of citizens.


have the people of Syria reacted to this speech? We have got used to


the fact that Friday is the main day for demonstration, because


people naturally congregate in mosques throughout this trouble in


Siria. But the President's speech actually managed to create massive


demonstrations on a Monday. There were extensive demonstrations in


Damascus, as we can see from the Vic tures, and also in the - the


picture, also in the port cities. People seemed angered at the term


"somebodyures" to describe the opposition. What about


international reaction to the speech? The international community


is in a difficult and interesting position, we know attempted to get


a new UN Security Council measure through have faltered because of


China and Russia. The EU is looking at new sanctions against Syria, we


have been talking about that today. They would aim to wind up the


economic pain. We also know that Turkey, that considers itself to


have given President Assad quite a few chances is considering more


robust action. The conservative interpretation is they want to send


troops to seal the border with Syria to stop the refugees coming


across. Syria has said it will use its troops to seal the border.


There are also rumours flying about the Middle East that Turkey would


like to enter Syria and create some sort of safe haven or buffer zone


there. Finding out what's happening in Syria is no easy matter, western


journalist business and large have been prevented from openly


reporting from Syria, Sue Lloyd Roberts has been in Damascus


undercover, what is it like? Very tense, there is paranoia among the


security force, that makes it very difficult for ordinary people,


doubly difficult for a foreigner, we are all considered a spy. Anyone


found carrying a camera, it is similar to carrying hard drugs or a


gun in this country, it could end you up in prison. It is difficult.


How representative were the people you met? I met a good


representation of people, from opposition MPs, to students and


young people out on the streets. The first clip we will show is of


the grand old man of the Syrian opposition.


After all that happened, after 1,300 at least, lost their lives,


for the revolution, and after 1,000 injured, and tens of thousands


arrested, and now we say there is no way to go back to the old


situation. Syria is belonging to the Syrians, Syria does not belong


to the Al-Assad family. This, let's say, the Al-Assad family, forever,


should have been stopped. It is enough. The Syrians would never


accept it any more. Riad Seif, who has been campaigning for a


democratic Syria for decades. But as he points out, after all the


sacrifice, he's saying now there is really no going back. I spoke to


very ordinary people, our next clip is from a mother who simply is


fighting for a Syria in which she wants her daughter to grow up.


TRANSLATION: I don't want my daughter to grow up like I did,


having always to say something in one place, something else in


another. I want her to be free. I want her to say what she wants,


where she wants, when she wants. My daughter watches the TV, and she


hears us chanting, "people want the downfall of the regime ". In her


innocence, she repeated this in school, and the teacher got really


angry, and shouted at her, and told her she had to praise the President.


She was upset and confused. That woman, like many people I


interviewed had her back to the camera. She was one of the street


protestor, she says all she would like to do is to be able to talk to


people, in front of cameras, to talk to the world. She was in


hiding like many of the people I spoke to. From what you saw of


people in Damascus, is Al-Assad's speech going to be enough? They


won't be at all impressed. He has made such promised before, they


come to nothing. People say they will fight to the end now. When I


said who is winning, without a moment's hesitation the people said


the people are. There is no going back, they are going to bring this


regime back down. Thank you very much.


Tomorrow, you will see Sue's full report from inside Al-Assad's Syria.


A short while ago I spoke to President Assad's political adviser


from Damascus. Why are there so many unhappy


people in Syria? Well, to my view today, many people were very happy


with the speech of the President. It laid down a vision for a new


Syria, for political participation, for national dialogue, for


reviewing or reviewing the constitutions. I think it depends


who you are covering, if you cover the whole people of Syria, or the


two sides of the spectrum, you will see that many people are happy.


you saying there are no demonstrations taking place, no


killings taking place, no refugeesing fleeing the country?


I'm not saying - refugees fleeing the country? I'm not saying there


is nothing like that. But I'm saying the President distinguished


very clearly between demonstrators who have legitimate rights and


groveances on the one hand, and between armed people, who are


killing, not only ordinary citizen, but even military and police


personnel. We have lost so far over 4 Hun military and police personnel


due - 4 Hun military and police personal. There seems to have about


the lost of 1,400 people, who did most of the killing? The President


has said today the loss of one soul is too much, and no person is


guilty of killing Syrian, we discovered a huge amount of


armments, we discovered terrorist and armed groups in the country. By


the way, this has nothing to do with the demonstrators and with the


legitimate rights of the Syrian people, which are acknowledged and


which have become the guideline for the movement ahead. Can we continue


the question of who killed all the people, 1,400 people dead, how many


people have been arrested for the murders? Tens of people have been


arrested, some people have been brought to court, some people are


still being investigated. We are trying to get all the help we can


from the Syrian people to bring everybody to task. It is our


interest, it is again our values to have people killed in such numbers.


In the particularly well known case of the 13-year-old boy, from the


village of Sidon, this is a boy abducted whose body was returned to


his family about two weeks, it was covered in burns, it was shot in


each arm and his penis had been cut off, who do you suspect was


responsible for that? I'm sorry to say that the legal doctor in Syria


and all the investigations proved that the stories promoted by


multinational media was very far from the truth. The boy was killed


on a demonstration, he was not abducted, he was collateral damage


on the street, and the story that the international media marketed


has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of what happened, and we


have a DVD, if you are interested, to send to the BBC about the true


story of the child. We put it on our national television five times


at least. As you know, the family have posted


a video of the body, and it shows a body that clearly had been


subjected to torture, are you saying that was fictional was it?


No, it wasn't the family who posted that video, the family met with


President Assad, and met with the Syrian authorities, and they be a


solved themselves from all the stories that were fabricated about


the boy. Now going back to the President's speech today, in which


he promised reform, how will we know this reform has happened?


you would be kind enough to read the entire speech. I have done so


I'm asking you how we will know the reform has happened? Well, because


the President has laid down what are the things that should be done.


He has said that national dialogue is the title of the stage, and we


will have the law for political parties, electoral law, new media


law, we will review and rewrite the constitution, if needed, all this


will be done by the national dialogue, with the time frame, that


President Assad said all it should be achieved by the end of the year.


By the end of the year you would know that all these things had been


achieved. Can you imagine a Syria whose President is not a member of


the Al-Assad family? Of course I can. Not a member of the Ba'ath


Party? Of course I can. When we are heading for multipolitical party


system, we are heading for democracy, we're heading for


political participation, anyone who is elected by the Syrian people


could be the President of Syria. despite the fact that in the past


he has promised reform and it hasn't happened, this time he's


serious, is he? In the past he was serious too, but the steps that


were taken were not noticed or were not seen to be effective. This time


the President, if you read his speech, he has spoken about his


meeting with thousands of Syrian people. The President said this has


been the most important experience, because we know now the weaknesses


and the loopholes in our political, economic and social system, it is


certainly in our interests and our desire to address these weaknesses


and loophole, this is what we are going to do. Would you say your


President was loved by the people? I would. I mean, you don't have to


have 100%, you know, all Presidents in all democracies are elected by


50 or 60%. I would say our President has a larger margin than


this. Loved by about 90% of the people perhaps? Let's say 51,


that's enough to be elected! Thank you very much indeed.


Thank you. Now, if it was ever true, as Tammy


Wynette sang, that sometimes it is hard to be a woman, it is true no


longer. Difficulty seems to be a permanent condition. Expected to


work like men, but to present themselves for sex as hairless as a


child, to see their children brought up in a highly sexualised


environment, some how to be mother, breadwinner and porn star, it may


not be as oppressive before the days of gender equality, it is


certainly more confusing. # Got to do my best to please her


# Just because she's a living doll When TV images first invaded our


living rooms, it was all so nice. There had been mixed reviews ever


since. Last Thursday evening we sat as a family and we saw a programme


that started at 6.35, it was the dirtiest programme that I have seen


for a very long time. # Ladies here we go


We can guess what steely and shockable Mary Whitehouse would


have made of all this, a wallpaper of sexual images that surround


children, said the latest report, hopefully suggesting ways to turn


off the perceived tide of filth. Although he's fighting wars abroad,


on this point the Prime Minister is doing battle at home.


You can't cut kids off from the modern world, no-one should try, we


can help parents to stop their children having inappropriate


things put in front of them at too early an age.


Sex has always sold. Spare rib feminists railed at male advertiser


who is use such images to flog all and Sunday dree item, but who


should they target now, when women themselves embrace the look once


confined to the top shelf, but now for sale on the high street. It has


always been there, and started to filter into every day life probably


more and more. As one thing becomes more acceptable, then it is


skreeping up to the next level without - creeping up to the next


level without people notice - noticing it happening. It is like


films and special effects, it is not shocking because we are used to


seeing it, it is like the sexual imagery being portrayed in the


media today. There was no need for the watershed when the Palladium


starred in Sunday schedules. The modern day equivalent looks and


sounds very different. Has the media changed, or have women? There


is a new trend, rapidly growing in popularity, which I had not heard


of until this morning. But I'm going to get to the heart of it.


Make that the bottom. This is the world of intimate


waxing, where boring old butic about hair is replaced with sparkly


- butic about hair is replaced with sparklely jewels.


If I walked through the door and asked to be have a jazzled, what


would happen? You would - vajazzled, what would happen? You would go


into the treatment rooms and you would be given a black book which


has a number of descriptive types of waxing with pictures, that shows


you all types of styles. You would pick out the style that suits the


way you feel and your mood for the day, really. This intimate wax is


this about women being strong or weak? I don't think you can depict


it either or, it is a grooming regime women have undertaken over


the years. Who is it for? It is for mums, grandma, powerful women in


the boardroom. Is it for men? for men. Is it to please men?


certainly in some instances, women feel they prefer to be more well


groomed if they are going on their hot date. Let's see the


vaingjazling in action, Fiona is - vagjazzilng in action, Fiona is


giving it a go. We can't show you it, this is BBC Two! What brings


you here? It is a pain-free wax, it is nice for myself, clean and


hygienic, keeping clean for the beach and summer. Nice for your


husband? It is nice, but I do it for myself. One woman's treat is


another woman's cause for alarm? Control is the problem. Women are


always expected to be in control of their sexuality, some how present


themselves as sexually continent, actually, vaingjazling which is


what it has - vajazzling, is like a castration, you make it look like a


child's genitals and you put crystals on, it looks like you have


been prepped for surgery by Dr Bling. Assaulted by highly


sexualised images whilst beset by the same old issues, modern


feminism has been dismissed as paradoxical, perhaps that is why


the Slut Walks, marching across cities everywhere are getting


attention. They have given women a rallying cry.


With us in the studio to discuss she is issues are my guests.


Why are women doing this? Can I say first of all I'm happy that he have


an episode of Newsnight where we are talking about women's John


Lewises with tiny jewel ones it, it is my favourite episode of


Newsnight already. That is saying something I bet! There is variety


of women doing this for different reasons, firstly fashion, if you're


bored, you see celebrities doing it. I find it odd you would remove your


pubic hair and carry a dog that looks like the pubic hair. My


personal idea is it is pornography, it is done for considerations of


lighting. If you have your pubic hair removed you can see things


better and it makes other things look bigger. Who is doing the


looking? The person who is viewing the pornography, it makes


everything clearer. This has come from pornography? The mainstreaming


of pornography over the last two decades has infiltrated almost


every aspect of our lives. From the way we keep fit through pole


dancing and the beauty regime that is women undertake. So removing


body hair and Jag jazzling, it is coming are from a porn - vajazzling


are coming from that place. Do you think it is wrong women choose to


shave off their pubic hair? It is wrong women live in a society where


we are compelled to do it. Are they compelled to do it? Speaking with


someone who has been with more an the average of men, I would say men


prefer a bit of hair. It is a lot of pressure that women are putting


on themselves rather than the men saying I want you to look porn


perfect. Even when I was working as a call girl, that was by no means


what everybody was doing. You would accept this is a practice which has


come from the pornography industry? That is where people see it for the


first time. But then, the sort of it creeping in other ways, you see


somebody after showers after sport, she has had it done, you think that


looks all right, I kind of like that. There also might be a status


thing, if you have the time and money to do that, it is like being


able to wear a very expensive car, you are walking around Virgin


Active saying I have the time and money to do that. Cars are


generally on display? It is a way of showing off. Who are you showing


off to? In a gym, if you are in a changing room and you see other


women have done it with that time. This isn't necessarily done for


men? For anyone going to see it. Double bubble or show off to ladies


that you have the time and money to this, and for men I watch


pornography. You find it impressive women do it? No it is a terrible


wast of time. Over the years from not waxs I have been able to save


up for a giant 3-DTV which gives me and my family pleasure. Is it


something women shouldn't do? don't believe anyone should not do


anything, I think the fact it is so common and so asthetically common,


they think they look lovely. object culture has had an effect on


women's self-esteem and how they value themselves. The effects are


felt across society, it is not just how women see themselves but how


boys see themselves. Boys are starting to treat, or expect them


to act like porn stars themselves, the expectation is there, that


women are all too aware of. There is a certain amount of boys are


very easily disabused of that notion once they start having


relationships with actual women. There is a certain amount of the


porn aesthetic we think of from the 80s and 90 of lollipop women with


the giant implants and fake tan. That is fantasy a boy has between


the ages of 12-15. When they get with real women, they want real


women. Can you give us examples of the way this sexualisation of


society can conditions how people behave? I actually think


sexualisation is the wrong word. That implies a broad term that


applies to both women and men. If we actually look closely, it is


dehumanised images of women and girls being treated as sex objects.


When you actually look at pornography itself, the ones that


are being dehumanised are the men as much as women. You don't see the


men's faces, they are a part for hire, you see the whole women, it


is not necessarily the way you want to see her, but the man really is


just the stunt part? Pornography is not nice, it doesn't portray anyone


in a nice way, we have to remember the pornography which plugs up the


Internet is relentlessly violent, relentlessly brutalised towards


women. There is a real danger of tarring all erotica with all porn.


So many poor arguments with "you Google the word X and therefore Y",


why not Google feminist porn. don't think that is the case.


Showing real women with real orgasams.


I don't have a problem with an overly sexualised society, it is


always the same kind of sex you see, very aggressive, American, west


coast skimpy dresses, if we had a widely oversexualised cardigan


culture it doesn't fit in with our country or broader notions.


don't have a problem with pornography per se? I think most of


it is boring. Do you worry about the way in which beyond strict


pornography, everything is, not everything, but there is so much


sexualisation in broader society? mean, I come from a rock and pop


background, it is very noticable that all the way through the 80s up


until the mid-90s women wore clothes. The fact is now Adele is


the only person wearing a sleeved dress in the 21st century.


making a very conscious statement? It is all that one kind of


sexuality, I sit down with my daughters I make them feel sorry


for them. We are sorry for them having to do their dances.


Where does this leave feminism in it this very much more sexualised,


apparently overtly sexualised society? Over the last five years


there has been a real resurge begins in feminist actism at a


grassroots levelment for many of the women coming on to the streets,


coming on to the street, it is the sex object culture being pushed in


their face, from the lads mags they can't avoid going into the local


shop. It really is hitting women extremely hard, and it is from that


we are seeing a real growth in actism. We have activist groups


spreading across the country. it something like a Slut Walk, you


can dress any way you like and be a feminist and still expect respect?


They are making a statement that no-one takes the fault if they are


raped. That is the fundamental message that women are sending out


when they go on the Marches. think it is the vajazzling is that


thing of one kind of sex, I'm going to straddle you and lap dance about


you, nobody will laugh about it, it will be serious and it will cost


money. If feminism is going to do anything t should bring the


humanity back into sex and the relationships of women. That is


where the current economic situation is an opportunity. All of


these big producers, the Playboys of the world, which everyone talks


about as if it is a giant industry, it is worth less than a tenth of


what Facebook is worth. It is dying a death, people don't want to pay


the money any more, for the small producer, those at home producing


their own porn. That's where it is really going to gain. That is what


people want, they don't want anonymous any more, they haven't


the cash to spend on it. I don't think that is the case, I think the


argument, the solution to the degrading body punishing


pornography we see on the internet is the so-called feminist porn,


that is a red herring, let's look at where the demand is, the demand


is for relentlessly aggressive and woman-hating pornography. I want


the statistics on this. On where the majority numbers are. That is


fine and a number of women's organisations would be happy to


that. Leaving aside whether it is female-


exploiting porn or what you call feminist porn, if you dislike it so


much what can you do about it? need to start challenging attitudes,


challenging young men and boys. Would you try to ban it? I think


what we don't know at the moment, we haven't had an open and honest


discussion about how you do actually regulate or anything to do


with pornography? The women is deciding this behind our backs.


have to talk to men and boys who themselves have said in a BBC that


they are worried about the pornography they are watching and


the images they are seeing, and they would like action around it.


It is coming from men and boys themselves. That is something


really important to remember in all of this and something on which we


probably all agree, men and boys are victimised by a lot of the same


imagery as people see as victimising women, it reduces human


desire down to a small thing, it is very orgasam focused, and finish


focused. It isn't just about the girls, it isn't just are girls


going out in sexy skirts r they asking for it. Them and their


vajazzling, boys feel a lot of pressure too, we have to consider


the wider picture. I can't believe sex ended up costing so much money.


Very often when I'm with my husband afterwards we can't believe how it


is free. You can't believe the massive industry about it, in the


book I have put it is like paying VAT on your vagina, boys aren't


having to do this, this seems unfair. We manage to make something


and money out of something that is free. Boys have the pressure to


look gym buffed and tanned. The Only Way Is Essex is not only about


women's body it is men. The industry got in the way, suddenly


this huge industry is in the way, you must dress like this and this


is how you have sex and how you will look at each and say these


things while having sex. People have forgotten how to natural low


have sex and copying it from pornography. I feel like that about


restaurant review, they have forgotten the pleasure of food.


are told the market brings options around sex, it gives us a really


restricted and demeaning view of sexuality, which is demeaning to


both women and men. What we really need to do is take sex back from


the pornographers and reclaim it from ourselves. And make it freaky,


and clown porn. I need to find better clown porn.


Thank you all very much. It is over a year since the Labour


Party lost power, years to go to the next shot at Government, but


despite the bad news the Government keeps laying on us, today it was a


raft of reforms to pensions, the Labour Party refuses to get any


more popular. How to turn things around? The fashionable idea at the


moment is Blue Labour, in a minute, Annabel Goldie, the man behind the


idea will face - the man behind the idea will face a Labour critic.


There is a sense of bravery and tragedy in our position, and that


is one meaning of the word "blue", that links Davies with Picasso.


Maurice Glasman on Blue Labour. Ever since Ed Miliband's election


as lab leader, his party has been grappling with a distinctive


philosophy. Blue Labour is the most notable contribution to the debate,


causing controversy within the ranks. Maurice Glasman coined the


term as an obvious rejoinederism by Red Toryism brought in by Philip


Blond, and also in response to Cameron's Big Society. Glasman is


described as a Conservative with a small "c "style of Conservatism,


that aims to return the party to traditional roots in 1945 the year


before Labour's great election victory. He wants to get away from


Labour's old style of success. Glasman is highly regarded by the


Labour leader, and illustrate bid the fact that last autumn, to some


surprise, Ed Miliband made him a Labour peer. Blue Labour's ideas


are set out in this book, which is available only on the Internet, and


called The Labour Tradition and The Politics Of Parodox.


A couple of other former cabinet ministers are quoted, along with


Tony Blair's former speech write. But there is also a contribution


from the left-wing Labour MP John Crudass. Ed Miliband endorsed the


book by writing a forward for it. In a speech last month, backed Blue


Labour even further. It goes to the heart of what Maurice Glasman calls


Blue Labour, some people have presented this as a nostalgic


vision of the past, the Labour equivalent of warm beer, bicycling


maidens and for those who don't remember it was something John


Major said in the 1990s. It isn't, it is a sense of what we see in our


country, people being buffeted by the storm winds blowing through


their lives. As his new bride might have said, something old, something


new, something borrowed, something blue.


But many in the party are deeply suspicious of Maurice Glasman's


influence. With us now is the Shadow Minister


for prisons, Helen Goodman, who has written an essay attacking Blue


Labour, and the man behind it all, Maurice Glasman.


How would you describe it? It is traditional Labour, it puts


friendship, neighbourliness, hard work, a real commit to the care for


your family at the heart of the political agenda. What is your


problem with it? I think it is OK as far as it goes, but I think we


know that we need a lot more than neighbourliness and commitment


between our family. I think the rejection of 1945 is a really big


mistake. We better explain that. You are saying the fact that the


1945 Labour Government, which many in the movement consider to be the


greatest Labour Government of all time, actually wasn't a Blue Labour


thing at all? No that's the point. He's going right back to the


beginning, the 1890s, there were some valuable things, the Co-op


movement, very strong, there was a lot of really positive things in


1945. I think most people in Britain have family stories that


reinforce that. What was wrong with 1945? There were great things about


1945, I haven't said another thing. The problem was in the


nationalisation model, the workers were completely subordinate, no


role for trade unions or workers in nationalised industries, very


administrative. The Government that created the NHS, that was mistake?


That was the wonderful thing in medicine. I'm saying by moving


exclusively to the state as the provider, very central things about


responsibility, about the movement and particularly about the role of


workers and work in the economy, were neglected, we just need to


reenstate that. You also suggest it is sort of anti-women? It is quite


anti-women. There are essays in the policies of paradox that blame the


breakdown of social order on women. You also suggest it is jingositic?


It is. There is a sentence that says, not Maurice but another


author, that says the social disorder is caused by the loss of


men's entitlement. As if white men were entitled to the fruits of


black people in the colonies, and the exploitation that went on in


the colonies, it is an extraordinary document? This is a


little ungenerous. Obviously there is a variety of voices in the book.


I think that the idea that this is anti-women is just wrong, straight


forwardly. You will I'm sure agree it is sometimes hard to work out


precisely what it is, this interview you gave to this Italian


magazine? Which I wrote in Italian, by the way. That explains something,


there is a sense of bravery and tragedy in our position, that is


one meaning of the word "blue" that links Myles Davies with Picasso,


what is this about? Many meanings to the word "blue", one with the


blue, the others is Myles Davies kind of blue, it is to get away


from this optimisim that things can only get better, all you do is vote


Labour and the world gets a better place, people have to take


responsibility, there is struggles ahead and defeat, we have to be


durable in the good, and transform to get the Labour Government we


want. Wouldn't it be better to go into the next election saying


things will only get worst? That is the dualistic things that the media


thrives on, things can get worse and better and a lot depends on us.


I would say things have got better with Labour Governments, there is


criticism of the nationalisation, my mother-in-law came from a mining


village, during her childhood she would frequently go to the pit when


there was an accident, how many people were being killed in the


pits, horrible things happened, once you got nationalisation, you


got massive improvements in health and safety standard, massive


improvements in people's standards of living. In my own grandmother's


life, between the wars she collected subs for voluntary


ambulance scheme, great for community building, but actually


people preferred to dial 999. you look at the German social


market that didn't go to nationalisation but determination,


a representation of workers on the board, a strong apprenticeship and


workers in the management firms, they had a far more durable model,


far less inequality and a high modern economy. I'm talking about


the sovereignty of those who did PPE in Oxford who governed the


Treasury and pulled the right lever, we have to have democratic


engagement in the economy. We will leave aside the reference to Ed


Miliband. The new Labour world, would the state be smaller? In the


Blue Labour, it wouldn't be smaller, but it would be imbeded in a set of


relationships. I'm arguing that there should be a split in schools.


There should be a split between parents, teachers and state in the


governance of the school, that should characterise the economy.


You have an anxiety about immigration? What b what is said. I


have an anxiety that the white working class, some how, is


privileged, in maur ris's picture of British history, that seems to


me to actually misunderstand British history, it is about empire,


we are a multicultural country because we had a big empire. One of


the successful things we have done, more than other European countries,


is build those multicultural communities so we have higher


levels of tolerance in our country. I would argue the great


beneficiaries of imperialism are the City of London, we are the


owner and the Labour Government was a massive effort to get recognition


for local workers who were dispossessed through the enclosure


movement and had to fight to achieve recognition within the


political system, the right to vote, democratic entitlements. This idea


there is a privilege for that is not so. We have lived through an


unprecedented period of immigration. I work with London citizens on


living wage where I saw just how the race to the bottom look effect.


There was competition between local workers and new workers and it is


necessary to reengage with the common good, with the politics of


the common good, doing what the Labour movement always did, bring


together immigrants and locals, working-class and middle-class and


engage in a general politics that can make the country better. What


is your anxiety if Blue Labour continues to gain ground in the


leadership of the party? I have two anxieties. One is that it ignores


the internationalisation agenda, and the world, so it is all very


well to have the things that he was talking about, Co-ops and


industrial democracy, I'm in favour of those things, we have to attract


foreign investment from abroad, you have to have Government taking a


role on that. Back to the issue of the welfare state, it may be


inefficient, it may be that we need to address the bureaucracy, but it


gives people security and equal opportunity.


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 61 seconds


Pretty showery for the rest of the week. Positively wet across some


week. Positively wet across some northern parts of the UK. Parts of


Scotland will have persistent rain, keeping things cool. Further south,


there will be some sunshine, pretty heavy and possibly thundery showers


across parts of northern England by the afternoon. Wimbledon will


probably get away with it, with largely dry day with sunshine. One


or two showers blowing in across parts of South-West England and


Wales. The showers shouldn't last for too long because of the breeze.


Lengthy dry and bright spells inbetween. Not too warm, 14-15. Not


much warmer for Northern Ireland. Dryer spells but further heavy


downpours possible. Slow-moving too. No prospect for things drying out


dramatically in the next few days. Wednesday looks every bit as


showery across the UK. Further south there will be more showers


than there were on Tuesday, rather more chance of some interruptions


at Wimbledon, by the middle of the week. This is the picture on


Wednesday. Starting off bright across south eastern areas, clumps


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