Browse content similar to 21/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight we report from inside Syria, the Government there has banned | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
independent foreign reporting. So Sue Lloyd Roberts has been there | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
undercover. On the road to Damascus, she meets | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
the ordinary Syrians whose stories have not been heard before. | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
TRANSLATION: They gave us the orders to fire heavily at unarmed | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
people, we were surprised to be told to shoot randomly, no | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
distinction between women, children, armed or unarmed men, many, many | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
were killed. What lies behind the demonstrations which the Government | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
says are the work merely of saboteur, and how has the regime | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
reacted? TRANSLATION: After they tortured me, they put me in | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
solitary, it was so small, I was made to stand, I couldn't sit down | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
of the they beat me with electric batons. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
Also tonight, as the Greek parliament faces a critical vote in | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
the next few minutes and the mob outside watches and waits, will | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
Helenic shivers lead to a second global crash. The issue is simple, | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
will tax-payers end up bailing out the bankers yet again? | :01:09. | :01:19. | |
:01:19. | :01:20. | ||
We're joined by guests who know to beware of Greeks bearing gilts. Is | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
the Justice Secretary now the prisoner of Downing Street. | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
Ever wondered why sometimes Google seems to deliver exactly what you | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
wanted to hear? Instead of cyberspace widening our horizon, is | :01:32. | :01:41. | |
:01:42. | :01:44. | ||
it trapping us in our own little bubbles. | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
State television in Syria broadcast news of the uprising in the country | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
today. Or else it broadcast pictures that it said proved | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
foreign troublemakers were misrepresenting the Syrian people's | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
fanatical devotion to President Assad. According to activist, his | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
troops opened fire on demonstrators in various cities, killing perhaps | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
seven people, including another 13- year-old boy. We know none of this | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
for certain, of course, because the regime refuses to allow foreign | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
journalists free access. So Sue Lloyd Roberts has been in Damascus | :02:17. | :02:27. | |
:02:27. | :02:30. | ||
on news Newsnight's behalf, It was surprisingly easy to get | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
into the country. Posing as a tourist, with a small camera. But | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
once here in Damascus, the difficulties began. If I booked | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
into an hotel, I was told I would be followed. My contacts took me to | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
an empty flat in a suburb of the city. To accommodate a journalist | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
at home would put them in jail, they explained. I had to lock the | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
doors and keep the blinds drawn. I have to sit here in hiding for | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
hours at a time, waiting to get a message from one of the activists | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
I'm working with here, to tell me when it is safe enough to go into | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
Damascus to meet with them. It is a frustrating way to report on the | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
uprising here in Syria, but not as difficult as it is for those who | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
are trying to bring about change in this country. | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
I soon found I wasn't alone in my predicament, nearly everyone I met | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
was on the run or in hiding, from Syria's Mukhabarat, the secret | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
police. Political activists are now | :03:35. | :03:44. | |
scattered around the city, in borrowed rooms and flats. I found | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
this 26-year-old journalists hide anything a friend's apartment, he | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
had just written his will. TRANSLATION: Prison was terrifying, | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
they tortured me, they put me in solitary confinement, they beat me | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
with electric baton, they spat at me said my career was over. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
His crime was to cast doubt on the President's promise of reform. What | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
does he think real reform is? TRANSLATION: The people of Syria | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
dream of living in a country that is free, where there was a rule of | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
law without a dictatorship, and where our lives are not ruled by | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
the security forces. Aliya, the mother of a young | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
daughter, had to go into hiding after leading a group of women | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
demonstrators. Why did she do it? TRANSLATION: I don't want my | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
daughter to grow up like I did, having always to say something in | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
one place, and something else in another. I want her to be free. I | :04:44. | :04:54. | |
want her to say what she wants, where she wants, when she wants. My | :04:54. | :05:04. | |
:05:04. | :05:04. | ||
daughter watches the TV, and she hears us chanting, "people want the | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
downfall of the regime". In her innocence she repeated this in | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
school, and the teacher got really angry, and shouted at her, and told | :05:11. | :05:20. | |
her she had to praise the President. Life in Syria is dominated by the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
weekly protests after Friday prayers. Who will go? Who will risk | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
being killed by army snipers. Will they survive to return home | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
afterwards. It's Thursday evening, the eve of what's become protest | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
day here in Syria, and people are dashing home before the roadblocks | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
are set up between the suburbs of Damascus and the city itself. The | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
last thing authorities want is for people to converge on the city, | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
recreating the Damascus equivalent of Cairo's Tahrir Square. Even here | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
in the prosperous middle-class suburb, you can tell how many | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
security guards patrol the streets, by the number of times I'm told to | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
hide my camera. People here tell you a mass demonstration in | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
Damascus would not be like Egypt, it would be massacre. But for | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
opposition leader, Riad Seif, the weekly protests are the highlight | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
of his week. I am 65 years old now, and I have cancer, but I enjoy so | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
much going to demonstrate every Friday with these youth, which I | :06:27. | :06:35. | |
see in them the future of Syria. Once I was caught and I was beaten | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
very, very hard. When Bashar al-Assad first came to | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
power ten years ago, he asked opposition leaders, like Seif, to | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
help him introduce reform. When Seif suggested a genuine democracy | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
he was imprisoned. Syria belongs to the Syrians, it | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
doesn't belong to the Al-Assad family. This, let's say, Al-Assad | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
family forever, should have been stopped, it is enough. | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
While I was in Damascus, there were pro-regime demonstration, and they | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
are happening with increasing regularity. Attended by thousands | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
of ordinary people, and not just those from the ruling Shia minority. | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
I went back to the hideout, the journalist, and asked him who the | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
President's supporters are? TRANSLATION: Like every country | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
there are people who benefit from the regime. There are two million | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
security personnel in Syria, if they alone came out, that would be | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
the biggest pro-regime rally ever. Yesterday President Assad repeated | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
that his country was bedevilled by saboteurs. The regime alternate in | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
accusing the protestors of being inspired by Israel, and at other | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
times, they are accused of being part of an Islamic fundamentalist | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
plot. Is there any truth in that? TRANSLATION: When I went out to | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
protest, I did not hear any purely Islamic chants. Everyone was | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
chanting, "Allah, Syria, freedom", that is what we want. Everyone was | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
chanting for freedom. There are Syrian who is are quite religious, | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
but they do not impose religious beliefs on you. | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
So far the biggest demonstrations have taken place outside the | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
capital city. In cities like Homs and ham matter, where thousands | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
have attended rallies, despite the risks. Army brutality has been | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
bravely documented by those wielding the weapon of this | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
revolution, the mobile phone. The beatings and the killings have | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
been indiscriminate. Methed out to adults and children | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
alike. - meted out to adults and churn | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
alike. The most painful image of which is the abduction, torture and | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
murder of a 13-year-old. Occasionally it has become too much | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
for soldiers. This man could no longer take orders from his | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
commanding officer and fled to neighbouring Lebanon. All Syrians | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
taking refuge here asked not to be identified, they hope to return one | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
day. TRANSLATION: They gave us the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
orders to fire heavily at unwarmed people. We were surprised to be | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
told to shoot randomly, no distinction between women, children, | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
armed and unarmed men. Many, many were killed, all unarmed civilians. | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
Our commanding officers said there is so much ammunition, keep | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
shooting, there is so much no-one will ask where it went. I would | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
fire in the air or at empty buildings, because I knew if they | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
found out I wasn't firing at people, they would detain me in a secret | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
location or kill me. The refugees in eastern Lebanon can see the | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
Syrian troops across the border, it was the threat that these men now | :10:01. | :10:09. | |
pose to the women of Syria, which forced him to leave the country. | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
TRANSLATION: I left my home to protect my honour. The men will | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
defend the land, but I have to defend my honour. When we talk to | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
our relatives in neighbouring town, they tell us horrifying stories, | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
they told us that so many women were raped, those who can't escape | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
are trapped. The soldiers don't fear God. | :10:33. | :10:43. | |
:10:43. | :10:44. | ||
In Syria, the violence continues. Latest pictures from the city of | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
Homs, show soldiers in an armoured personnel carrier, firing on | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
apparently unarmed demonstrators. Activists say there were seven | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
deaths in all. Three months on and hundreds dead, who is winning here? | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
TRANSLATION: The people are winning every day. Every day the regime | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
loses another city. TRANSLATION: We're paying a very high pri, but | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
we are winning. - Price, but we are winning. My main wish is seeing | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
Syria free before I die. I was struggling for years for that. I'm | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
sure it will not be so long that I'm very optimistic I will see it. | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
You don't see groups of people in Syria, because if more than ten or | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
twelve gather, they are likely to be arrested. | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
In August it will be Ramadan, when thousands will come together to | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
attend daily prayer. This, people here tell you, is when the real | :11:47. | :11:54. | |
revolution will begin. The Foreign Office minister, John | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
Birt, is in our Westminster - Alistair Burt, is in our | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
Westminster studio. We are already taking military action in Libya to | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
protect civilians, is there any danger of doing something similar | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
in Syria? I don't think so, at the moment it is difficult to get the | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
UN Security Council to issue a resolution on condemnation on what | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
is happening. We are working with France, with Germany, with Portugal, | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
to put forward a resolution to condemn the action. But the truth | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
is, unlike Libya, there is not the same international consensus. The | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
Arab League is more conflicted in its response, the Russians and the | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Chinese have already said they would veto. Unfortunately we cannot | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
get the sort of condemnation we need for what you have seen. Which | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
gives the lie to what President Assad has said about what he claims | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
is happening in Syria. Effectively our foreign policy is made in | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
Moscow or various capitals signed up to the Arab League? That is a | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
misinterpretation, you know that full well. We are pushing as hard | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
as we can through the EU for the various sanctions. Why are we | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
failing so conspicuously? We are not failing. We haven't done | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
anything yet? We can't on our own get a UN resolution through | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
countries who don't want it. Demonstrablely we can't do it | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
through the French? The French support what we do, a range of | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
countries support a UN resolution, some things are not within our | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
control. We are pressing as hard as we can at the UN. I don't think | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
anyone will watch the report that you have seen and say some how this | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
is all the UK's fault, that is willful misinterpretation of what | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
we have seen. No-one is suggesting that. Let me ask a simple question, | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
should President Assad go? should either reform or get out of | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
the way. Whren you judge that he is genuine - when will you judge he's | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
genuine about reforming, yesterday he said he would reform? The speech | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
yesterday is disappointing. There is no sense at the moment he is | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
about reform. What he needed to do yesterday was release the political | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
prisoners, the access to the country to foreign media, to | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
humanitarian relief. How many chances are you going to give this | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
man before saying you have to go? don't think we're in the position | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
of giving chances. We have already taken action, targeted sanctions | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
against him and other members of the regime. We are press to go get | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
more sanctions at European Council this week, we are working with | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
others to do things at the United Nations. This is not something we | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
have entirely within our own gift. We are doing everything we can. | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
me ask you specifically about something happening on the streets | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
of this capital city right now. We have been approached by various | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
members of Syrian society, who are in London, who have taken part in | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
protests against the Al-Assad regime, who have found that the | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
Syrian embassy have been sending people to take their photographs | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
and those photographs have then been shown to their families in | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
Syria, with a clear intent of intimidating them. Will you call | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
the ambassador in and tell him to stop doing it? This is quite wrong. | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
We have taken action in the past against diplomats who threatened | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
people in this country, and we would do so again. I have heard of | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
these allegations during the course of this evening, we will be | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
investigating, they must be investigated by the police. If we | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
had evidence that people were being intimidated in this country by | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
diplomats working for another country, we have taken action | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
before and we will do so again. Will you call the ambassador in and | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
tell him so? We have regular ambassador to pass various messages | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
about what is happening in Syria. Once we have had an opportunity to | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
investigate these allegations, he might well be coming in again. | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
Thank you. Now the Greek Government is still | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
waiting for the result was a crucial confidence vote in | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
parliament which is taking place about now. Even if the vote pass, | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
that won't mean an end to the crisis. - passes that won't mean an | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
end to the crisis. They have to get through public spending cuts, tax | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
hikes and privatisations, with plenty of Greeks saying they should | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
refuse and refault on their debt. The European Union is desperately | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
trying to find out how much damage that would do to banks in the rest | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
of the continent. With some people saying it could spark another | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
crisis in capitalism. Let's figure out how the dominos could go down | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
with Paul Mason now. The Greeks defaulting on the debt? We are | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
hoping by the time we have finished the programme they will have a | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
Government. Which they didn't have over the weekend, that would put | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
them one step ahead of Belgium. It is not the Government they need. It | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
is an austerity plan that the European Union agrees with enough | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
to give them money. Now they are trying to pass the austerity plan | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
through parliament next Tuesday. Since the parliament will be at | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
that point thronged with tens of thousands of demonstrators, many of | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
them will be intent on violence, it is highly likely that will be a | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
much tighter vote. If they don't pass the austerity plan the | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
European Union demands, and even if they pass it and don't execute it, | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
this is what raises the issue of default. | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
Tonight's vote is not the main event. The main event comes when | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
the Greek parliament has to vote on the austerity package already | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
agreed with the EU. That slashs 278 billion euro office Greece's budget | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
over four years. The public sector will shrink from 53% of GDP to 44% | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
n just six years, it still leaves the country with debts 150% of its | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
national output. Greek ministers are determined to | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
push it through. The unions and protestors determined to oppose it, | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
a centre right opposition determined to change it. And | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
default, quite simply, is what happens if the protestors win. | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
with this second Greek bailout, Greece will run out of money in a | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
few year's time. The economy simply isn't growing, they will not have | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
enough cash to fund themselves post 2014, meaning they will default any | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
way, it is better to do it now in an orderly fashion. In Brussels, | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
the battle is between those who insist that the banks should lose | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
money if Greece defaults and those, like this man, from the ECB who say | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
this is impossible. For now the ECB is winning, but critics believe the | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
authorities have lost the plot. They are very clever people, they | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
are being faced with an almost intractable problem, I don't think | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
there is an easy solution to this. Every possible solution has massive | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
drawbacks and costs. A default, controlled or chaotic, imposes | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
losses on someone, those asking whether we now face a second Lehman | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
Brothers, may be asking the wrong question. I would question the use | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
of the word "second", I would argue it is the same. All we managed to | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
do from Lehman Brothers is move it from one balance sheet, being | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
unrecognised loss, from one balance sheet to other, we have ended up on | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
the largest balance sheet available, the tax-payers' balance sheet, | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
there is nowhere to go. Is the British taxpayer going to get | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
zapped too? Somebody has to pay in a default. George Osborne and David | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
Cameron have said they will not bail out Greece again and not take | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
part in that. Large parts of the macro-economics profession and | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
journalism have spent the last 72 hours pouring over the root maps | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
between a busted bond in the Greek Treasury and a lost job on Tyneside. | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
Or elsewhere in Europe, and these roots exist. It is entirely | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
possible to see now, not just one root from crisis in Greece to | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
megacrisis in Europe, and several, and some of them do involve the | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
European taxpayer as a whole having to put its hand in its pocket. | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
Almost half of all Greek debt is held by Greek banks and pension | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
fund, they would go bust if Greece defaults, why should we care? | :19:45. | :19:52. | |
Because of what would happen next? You get the biggest banks' exposure | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
to Greece are in Germany, France and the UK. We have already seen | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
reports that banks are becoming increasingly wary of lend to go one | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
another, in case the exposure goes wrong, in turn it will hurt | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
business confidence and consumer confidence, it leads to an | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
unpleasant downward spiral and back into recession maybe. The contagion | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
doesn't end there, the European Central Bank, the body that runs | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
the eurozone, has lent Greece so much money, that its solvency too | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
could be in doubt. The real problem comes with the derivatives market, | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
in London and New York, banks have insured themselves against a | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
default, through called CDS, who pays out? A default is inevitable | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
in the sense that Greece cannot pay off its debt. Nor can it achieve | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
the kind of restructuring it has been asked to do in the time frame | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
it is asked to do to pay off the debt. Couldn't sequences of that | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
debt will reverberate far beyond Greece and hit London and New York, | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
not just French and German banks who lent to the Greek, but also the | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
markets in London and New York, which specialise in derivatives and | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
CDS contracts that insured against the default. The nightmare scenario | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
is a second version of Lehman Brothers, Greece draws Portugal and | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
Ireland into the crisis, raising the cost of borrowing for all Euro- | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
countries, then banks refuse to lend to each other, this is a | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
second credit crunch, that stifles the world economy. | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
The real risk for us in Britain is the Greek crisis, in this the end, | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
cause as significant banking and economic crisis across the whole of | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
Europe. And that's going to cause big problems for us, around about | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
50% of our exports go to the eurozone. If the eurozone is in | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
trouble, Britain is in trouble. Just before we explore that | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
question of what happens to the eurozone, they are still voting in | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
the Greek parliament, but the Government has survived. Let's go | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
back to what happened to the euro, the euro is bust by this, or the | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
Greeks can't stay in the euro, what happens then? We have often | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
wondered what it might look like, a terminal crisis of the eurozone. I | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
think for several months, again, on programmes like this, in the | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
broadsheet press, we have been looking at arguments between the | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
European Central Bank and this politician, or that actor in some | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
bureaucratic hole in Brussels. But the really stunning thing that has | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
happened, in the last month, is the entry of the Greek people into the | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
debate. The whole reason we are here now is because Papandreou's | :22:24. | :22:32. | |
Government almost collapsed last Wednesday, when mayhem broke out in | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
central Athens. This wild card of mass action, mass discontent, and a | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
mass switch-off from the European project that we are seeing also in | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
southern Europe, also in parts of northern Europe. This empty that | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
makes the whole outcome, I think, much hard Tory predict than if you | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
were simply trying to - harder to predict than if you were trying to | :22:51. | :22:58. | |
predict it through pure economics. The eurozone is a single interest | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
rate and currency but 16 different tax and spend rules. The aim at | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
harmonising the policies were systematically rejected. | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
YuriGagarino50 Euro-can't sur rife, without - euro can't survive, | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
unless it has measures to make it up to a grown-up kurn circumstance | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
or pushing out countries that cannot meet the criteria. Some see | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
a redrawn map of Europe, with the north separate from the south, as | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
the euro's only chance. I think Germany should leave. Taking with | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
her other like-minded countries, Austria, Luxembourg and Finland, | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
and leaving the euro as the currency of the weaker peripheral | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
countries. But electorates in northern Europe are rejecting this, | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
right-wing parties that oppose the euro on principle are gaining | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
ground. The old centralist politicians are looking to lose the | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
argument. Tax-payers in northern Europe feel they underwrite | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
Governments in foreign countries, and citizens in poorer regions and | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
countries feel they are being pushed into these kind of austerity | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
measures by bureaucrats, officials and politicians they can't vote out | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
of office, something has to give. But the Greek people have now | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
forced their way into the argument. They are rejecting austerity in | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
large numbers. This footage, they height of last week's rioting, | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
shows a major European city, temporarily absent of the rule of | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
law. That is what has focused minds, what the Greek people do remains | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
the wild card that could yet decide the euro's fate. To get an idea of | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
what might happen if Greece does default, I'm joined by a Greek | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
economist, Costas Lapavitsas, and the German chief economist of | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
Berenberg Bank, and the assistant editor of the Financial Times. I | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
better remind anyone that is watching that the Greek Government | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
has survived the confidence vote. What is your bet, will they | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
default? People in America are certainly watching this with great | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
concern. Both in Washington and New York, in the policy-making circles, | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
there is real concern. I think the issue is right now Europe is at a | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
crossroads, French bankers were spoken to in New York, and it was | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
said now is the time Europe needs it look at corporate governance, | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
will it pull together and create quasi-federal structures or fall | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
apart. Right now we don't know. That is why so many people are so | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
nervous. Do you think the Greek also default? As long as the Greeks | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
swallow the bitter medicine of austerity, Europe would see the | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
Greeks paid their bills. There is no sign they have any appetite to | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
swallow the medicine? They may not have the appetite, we have just had | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
the first of the three crucial votes in the Greek parliament, | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
apparently giving a majority for that programme. So far we have to | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
keep our fingers crossed, but we are still on track. What is your | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
feeling, as a patriotic Greek? would not comment as a patriotic | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
Greek, but as an economist I can say that the Greeks have swallowed | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
plenty of medicine since May 2010, and the result has been utter | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
failure. They know that this has been the case. So they are most | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
reluctant to swallow more medicine which they have worked out will | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
lead nowhere. Let as say for the sake of argument, the Greeks do | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
then decide that's it, it is game over, they are not going to play | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
along with this any more, what happens then? I think default will | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
happen then. What are the consequences of default? | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
consequences of default would be serious, serious for Greece and for | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
Europe. But I stress, Greece has no choice, the choice is gone, there | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
is no choice at all. If it goes for default, if through popular unrest | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
and the groundswell of anger it goes for default, it will have to | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
take drastic action to restructure the economy, put different footing | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
and create jobs and growth and prosperity for its people. What do | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
you think would be the consequences of a Greek decision to default? | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
think probably it would cast the eurozone banking system into a lot | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
more uncertainty, because, of course, you do have a chunk of this | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
debt held been the eurozone banking system. It would tip the financial | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
markets into a certain degree of turmoil as well. As you heard from | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
the earlier segment, there are a number of derivative contracts tied | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
to Greek bond, whose value would be uncertain if there is a default. | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
You have a very entwined banking system, it is the unforeseen | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
consequences, as with the Lehman Brothers episode, really worrying | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
policy makers right now. Could it lead to something as serious as the | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
banking crisis which followed the collapse of Lehman Brothers? | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
good news is this time round, unlike in the Lehman Brothers case, | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
policy makers, investors and bankers have had several months to | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
think about the "what if" scenarios. There are plenty of people inside | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
central banks and banks who have gone through the worse case | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
scenario, and they are trying to put measures in place to offset any | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
big risks. However, as we have learned so clearly in the last | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
couple of years, it is the unforeseen consequences that tend | :28:31. | :28:40. | |
to trip people up. Right now there are very high unfor seen | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
consequences. In Greece these big damables are going hand in hand | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
with the future of the US debt situation as well. It is the | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
uncertainties that make it so risky. Will northern European tax-payers | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
bail out southern European economies? Northern European tax- | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
payers are putting significant amounts of money at risk, so far | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
with doing that they have managed to contain the risks. We should not | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
forget that much of continental Europe is having its best economic | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
time in 20 years. So far the European approach, of offering | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
tough love to Greece and other southern European, namely, money, | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
if you change your ways, so far it is working, it is a tough test. If | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
Greece decides it doesn't want the tough love, because it is too tough, | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Europe would switch tack, it would start to contain the constage I | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
don't know risk, prop up Spain and let Greece do what Greece decides | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
to do. Is he being a get sanguine there? This is a political problem, | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
it is not an economic problem. If the eurozone was a single unit, the | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
eurozone has enough resources to solve it. The question is does the | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
eurozone want to come together more closely as a single political unit? | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
If you like, as someone who trained as an an throp polygamist, it is | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
the revenge of the anthropologists and the sociolologists against the | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
number crunchers, you can't put the numbers in and predict what is | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
coming next, it is uncertain but very worrying. | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
What is your worrying? It is not just the Greeks, it is the Irish | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
and Portuguese who are bankrupt, the big one is Spain, which is not | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
far off. And there are plenty of other northern Europeans pretty fed | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
up with the euro too? The periphery is effectively bankrupt, it is not | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
a problem of feckless Greeks, or Greeks who have mishandled their | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
financial affairs. Although that is also true? Possibly, but it is to | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
do with the eurozone itself and the structures. The fact that the whole | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
of the periphery is basically bankrupt indicates that. Now, if | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
Greece were to default, clearly its banks would have a major problem | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
and would have to be put under public ownership or they would go | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
bankrupt. It would be a major hit for the ECB, exposed to Greek bonds, | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
and also to liquidity given to Greek banks. It will be a major | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
blow for continental banks. It will also be a major blow for the | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
secondary bond market. Obviously the bonds of other peripheral | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
countries would collapse in value, because it would become clear that | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
default is possible. Angela Merkel knows the Germans will not be at | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
all enthusiastic about the sort of action that is required? They are | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
not enthusiastic about it. But if you look at Germany, Germany has so | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
far always risen to the challenge, doesn't forget, as Ian Tett was | :31:43. | :31:50. | |
pointed out, this is politics. The post-war rationality of German is | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
to keep Europe together. Germany will not let the euro break apart, | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
Greece will do what it has to do, but Germany will see it, with | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
taxpayer money if expected, that the major parts of Europe stays | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
together. Germany has the means and will to do it. | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
Thank you both and all very much. We absolutely must not accuse the | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
Government of another collapse in the face of hostile opinion: the | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
fact they have abandoned ideas about halving prison sentences for | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
those pleading guilty, means it reflects the fact they are | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
thoughtful of public opinion. It raises the tricky question where | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
they will find the money they thought they were going to save. | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
We feel constrained to commit to you the maximum term allowed for | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
these offences, you will go to prison for five years. Mind you, it | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
would only be two-and-a-half years if Fletcher had pleaded guilty and | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
Ken Clarke had had his way. Today David Cameron announced new | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
mandatory jail terms for brandishing a knife, and moves to | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
help people defend their homes, and against squatting. But that was | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
overshadowed by the decision to scrap Mr Clarke's controversial | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
plans to give criminals 50% off their jail terms if they plead | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
guilty. Saving the trouble of a long trial, | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
rather than the quurnt third they get in such circumstances. For the | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
most serious crimes we have concluded this certainly would not | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
be right. The sentence served would depart far too much from the | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
sentence handed down by the judge, this is not acceptable. We looked | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
at whether a 50% discount could be applied to less serious crime, we | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
reached the same conclusion. Michael Crick, from Newsnight? | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
Several of the things you have announced tonight, Prime Minister, | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
will add to the Ministry of Justice's cost, isn't this a huge | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
kick in the teeth for a minister, who came along, gave you a very | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
generous settlement, at an early stage in the spending round, now | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
you have made him find more savings? Ken is happy with the | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
proposals we are both publishing this morning, and he will explain | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
to the House this afternoon, as we go forward. It is able to make the | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
savings without cutting the sentences for the most dangerous | :34:14. | :34:22. | |
offenders. The plans for 50% jail terms for serious offence, such as | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
rape and murder, from effectively killed off in Whitehall a couple 6 | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
months ago. But they were still being - a couple of months ago, but | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
they were still being considered a fortnight ago for lesser crimes. | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Ken Clarke had powerful support from the Treasury, who hoped to | :34:39. | :34:49. | |
:34:49. | :34:49. | ||
save money from the scheme. Then George Osborne, as much the | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
political strategist as penny penching Chancellor, changed his | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
mind, and Ken Clarke was told to drop the plans all together. The | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
Treasury has given Ken Clarke four years to find other savings to meet | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
the �130 million that the 50% plan was meant to save in last year's | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
Spending Review. Though, justice officials admit that figure was far | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
too ambitious any way. Today's climb-down also means the planned | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
3,000 drop in jail numbers, will be abandoned too. Numbers could rise, | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
instead. There are two big problems for Ken Clarke, one is the cost of | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
running crowded prisons, the other is crowded prisons themselves | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
running out-of-spaces, the specter of prisoners detained in police | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
cells and so on. One wonders whether it maybe the Government has | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
to turn to the back door. In other words, given that the Government | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
has the discretion to allow offenders to go from prison on | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
early rely might be seen in the coming months or years, a lot going | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
out the back door, as a way of compensating for the fact that Ken | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
Clarke has failed to get through his policy to reduce sentences by | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
50%. As for Cameron's eye-catching moves | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
today on knives, Tony Martin-style burglary cases and squatters, one | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
Ministry of Justice source told me they were dreamt up, not by them, | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
but by Downing Street, to keep the Sun and the Daily Mail happy. | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
is a bit of headline-grabbing going on, when those clauses go in front | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
of parliament there will be pretty detailed discussion about them. We | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
have two processes going on here. We have some people in the | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
Government want to go look tough, and occasionally producing sensible | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
measures but often not, we have a whole process of trying to make | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
sure we spend our money in ways that do stop crime rather than | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
grabbing headlines. For Labour another Government reverse should | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
present an open goal. I have got no problem with the Prime Minister, or | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
members of the cabinet seeing good sense, especially after the | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
campaign, not just for politicians but members of the public. What I | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
think is unwise s that the 11th hour, because the media is not | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
backing down, because you have a particular lobby group you are | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
worried about, changing policy on the hoof without thinking through | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
the consequences. Today's sentencing, before that health, | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
David Cameron has endured a June of taunts of U-turn, to stave off too | :37:19. | :37:26. | |
big political problems, long-term. As with health, though, the risk is | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
that criminal justice becomes less coherent and more expensive. | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
The Internet, we're repeatedly told, has democratised knowledge, if we | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
want to we can find out almost anything. Supposing that's not | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
quite true. Supposing we're just been told what someone believes we | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
want to hear, or worse than that, that some vast corporation's | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
algorithm has decided to feed us. What if some commercial Ministry of | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
Truth was ensuring we were only told what we wanted to hear. That | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
is the scare theory put forward by Eli Pariser, believing we all live | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
in filter bubbles. We asked our reporter to test the theory. | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
Looked in the mirror lately, if so you will know what the future of | :38:12. | :38:19. | |
the internet looks like, aparting to Eli Pariser, he says we're | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
entering into the era of personalisation, where web | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
companies know everything about us and serving up a world that looks | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
like home. The idea is increase league we are in our own little | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
bubble, experiencing a personalised and limited internet, which filters | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
out stuff that doesn't match our own likes and prejudices. Let's see | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
what this means in practice, with a look inside my bubble. You have | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
looked for Citroen, it is now pinpointing where you are, because | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
it has picked up where we are searching from. It is finding local | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
Citroen dealerships for you, that is a simple example of | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
personalisation using geographical information. | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
I'm a big user of Gmail, alongside it are adverts for China. My wife | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
has just been in China, and we have been e-mailing each other using G- | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
mail, has it picked up something there? Google can pick up a lot of | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
stuff when you are logged into Google, it can pick up the subject | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
matter you are e-mailing about, all sorts of things like that, then you | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
end up with China being advertised to you. I find it a bit creepy? | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
lot of people do. One example of personalisation, | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
according to Persson, is that the same Google searches could provide | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
very different results for very different people, I'm going on a | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
journey to test the theory. Well, next door at least. | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
OK Jilly, what we will do is get you to type in the same things that | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
I have searched for, so we will start with banana bread. | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
What have you got, you have got as far as I can see, just about | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
identical results to me. You have the BBC One, two BBC recipe, can | :40:13. | :40:23. | |
:40:23. | :40:24. | ||
you type into this one, "is wind power economic?". Yet again you | :40:24. | :40:32. | |
have got identical results to me. Not much evidence of | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
personalisation there, let's go further afield to another neighbour. | :40:38. | :40:48. | |
:40:48. | :40:53. | ||
"is wind power economic? ". Yes, yes, yes, looks like you have the | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
same results again. That didn't work very well with general | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
searches, did it, you can see personalisation in action when it | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
comes to on-line advertising. Previous searches and general web | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
habits get remembered, and trigger ad that is may or may not be | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
relevant to you on various sites. It is particularly noticable if you | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
have a web-based e-mail account such as G-mail which spots words in | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
your messages and throws up advert it is thinks you might want to look | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
Some people are making serious money from personalisation. I'm | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
here to see one of them. Sam Barnett's young company uses | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
technology to show advertisers how to reach you even when you have | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
left them. A user goes to a retail site and leaves without buying a | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
product and surfs the interin the. We will refined the user and send | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
them banner ad that service products they are interested in, | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
the ad is completely personalised so they are likely to click and buy | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
that item from an advertiser. One of the key things is it makes | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
advertising work, so the web continues to be free, so you and I | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
can continue to use all the things we love about the Internet for free. | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
Maybe we will find ourselves trapped in our own web bubbles, | :42:08. | :42:17. | |
easy meat for advertisers. Here's a thought, maybe we will like that! | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
With us now is Eli Pariser, author of the filter bubble, and Jacob | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
Wiseberg from Slate magazine, and joins us by satellite. Actually, | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
lots of people will be grateful to have the rubbish filtered out? | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
know, the challenge here is this is happening invisibly, we don't see | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
it at work, we don't know who dooing google thinks we are and on | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
what basis - Google thinks we are and on what basis it is editing our | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
results, and why fates book is showing us some stories - Facebook | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
is showing us some stories and not others. As it shifts from human | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
people to algorithms, you are more likely to see more things and you | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
may not know why you are clicking. What do you make of the news? | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
hate to reduce it to an empirical reference, I read the book and was | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
sceptical that this degree of filtering was happening on Google. | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
Like your reporter I tested it out, I found some people I gathered for | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
a test on Twitter, different politicians from different parts of | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
the country were receiving virtually the same results. More to | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
the point, there is really no evidence to say that we are | :43:34. | :43:43. | |
becoming a narrower parochial, more bubbly people, as a result of the | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
the stuff going on at the internet. We are being exposed to a wider | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
range of viewpoints, sources of information. I think that we have | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
enough real things to worry about in terms of the supression of | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
internet freedom, the risks to democracy that come with technology, | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
not to focus too much on something that could happen but isn't | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
happening. Let us continue with this fictional worry for a moment | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
or two? Can we talk about evidence for a second or two. We could trade | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
anecdotes and you could find evidence of searches that are | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
different. There has been some empirical evidence on this with | :44:21. | :44:28. | |
Google personalisation. The journal First Monday published a paper that | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
says 64% of the search results differed between people because of | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
the personalisation at work. are taking people for idiots aren't | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
you? David Cameron had a news conference today. If I want to find | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
out what happened at that news conference, I could go to the Ten | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
Downing Street website and get a transcript of it. I could go to | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
something that consorted with my political prejudices and a | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
newspaper site that was left or right-wing. I know what I'm doing, | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
you are assuming people don't know what they are doing? It is the | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
contrary, Google and Facebook are the ones that are assuming that | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
people only want to hear from people like them. They are feeding | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
them stuff 0 it may produce more page views or ad reviews. | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
sampling we did was there both here and in New York? Google, I have | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
talked to them, they don't prevend there are differences in search | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
results, they are clear that in some cases it could have a | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
political bias to that. I don't think they acknowledge. That | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
Come on Mr Wiseberg? I don't think they do acknowledge that. More | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
ton't point if you take a little bit of historical perspective on | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
this, for nearly all of human history, all people lived in | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
bubbles and had no choice. Either they had no outside information or | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
limited access to a very limited range of sources of information, | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
and now for the first time we all have access to an unlimited range | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
of human information. It is possible, that people won't take | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
advantage of that and they will burrow deeper into their rabbit | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
Warrens, and associate with people who agree, and find out about | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
specific things they are interested in. I don't think it is happening | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
and I think the opposite is happening. I think in social | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
networks like Facebook, where people receive information | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
mediateed through people they have identified as kindred spirits, it | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
is certainly happening there, isn't it? If you don't read a newspaper | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
and watch Newsnight and you didn't get any news, now you are getting | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
news exclusively through Facebook. You have replaced no with limited | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
information. Facebook is not a news organisation. How much of Slate's | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
traffic comes from Google? Not very much. I wish we got more traffic. | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
Most news websites it is 50% or more Google and Facebook combined, | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
that is the New York Times and a bunch of other news websites. The | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
point is, some stories, I have seen it on Slate, will do very well, | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
others won't. In part, based on whether you can click "like" easily | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
on the headline or not. That means the story earlier on the programme | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
about Syria and the prokblems there, doesn't make it as far on Facebook | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
as a more trivial story that is entertaining and makes you like it. | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
It has serious consequences for journalism, and some stories make | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
it to the public and others don't. That is not necessarily true. | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
I'm so sorry, we have run out of time. Thank you very much both of | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
you. That is all from Newsnight tonight, more tomorrow, until then | :47:39. | :47:49. | |
:47:49. | :47:53. | ||
Warming up through the weekend, that is a long way off. For the | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
time being it remains cool and showery across the UK. A wide | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
distribution of showers, as you can see, with very few places staying | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
dry during the course of Wednesday. Some hours heavy and thundery. A | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
cool one, temperatures mid-to high teens. Wimbledon could be affected | :48:13. | :48:20. | |
by lively downpour, I'm expecting some disruptions. A broz that will | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
move the showers through. Dryer and bright spells mixed in. That is the | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
story across Wales. Temperatures not as high as they should be at | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
this time of year. Mid-teens will be typical. Further north the winds | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
will be lighter, which means the showers could last longer. A | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
showery scene across Northern Ireland. Not the persistent heavy | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
rain which some parts of eastern Scotland had on Tuesday. More | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
showers to come across northern areas on Thursday, they could be | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
heavy, and temperatures disappointingly low. A similar | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
story further south. Dryer and brighter spells, but showers never | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
too far away. The main emphasis on showers on Thursday will be across | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
the more central and eastern parts of the UK. Gradually drying out | :49:05. | :49:09. |