04/07/2011 Newsnight


04/07/2011

A special programme exploring different attitudes towards the notions of Britishness, national identity and Scottish independence. Presented by Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Tonight: They hacked into the mobile phone of an abducted

:00:07.:00:09.

teenager. They deleted messages from the same phone, letting the

:00:09.:00:14.

parents hope their daughter was still alive. And then they ran an

:00:14.:00:16.

interview with those same parents, begging their dead child to come

:00:16.:00:21.

home. Tonight the News of the World is accused of some of the most

:00:21.:00:29.

odious antics in the long history of British tabloid journalism. What

:00:29.:00:32.

is the fit punishment for commoditising the death of Milly

:00:32.:00:35.

Dowler in a manner that could have interfered with a police murder

:00:35.:00:38.

investigation? We're joined by the Dowler family lawyer and the MP

:00:38.:00:41.

campaigning against News International. Also tonight, it's

:00:41.:00:44.

lasted us 300 years but what chance is there of the union between

:00:44.:00:47.

England and Scotland surviving? In Scotland they've a nationalist

:00:47.:00:52.

government promising a referendum on independence. Here we have a

:00:52.:00:55.

studio full of opinions and a poll suggesting half the English would

:00:55.:01:01.

also like a vote on staying together. A Scotsman returns to his

:01:02.:01:06.

roots to find out how strong is the appetite for divorce. And an

:01:06.:01:08.

Irishman asks if an ascending English identity will soon replace

:01:08.:01:18.
:01:18.:01:21.

a more complex British sense of who we are. That broughtal

:01:21.:01:24.

assertiveness, people saying we have to claim a better Englishness.

:01:24.:01:27.

Reclaim that, but there is no answer to what it may mean. We'll

:01:27.:01:30.

hear from an Englishman, a Scotswoman and a British man, among

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For once that overworked word 'scandal' is the only appropriate

:01:40.:01:49.

one. It's one thing to break into the private phone messages of

:01:49.:01:55.

actors and celebrities, but another to allegedly interfere into the

:01:55.:01:59.

police investigation into the abduction and murder of a child.

:01:59.:02:02.

The private investigator employed by the News of the World, hacked

:02:02.:02:06.

into the mobile phone of the schoolgirl Milly Dowler while the

:02:06.:02:11.

police were searching for her. It was alleged that he deleted

:02:11.:02:16.

messages, giving the parents' hope that she was still alive. The

:02:16.:02:22.

editor of the paper was rebreb ereb, the man appointed as the Prime

:02:22.:02:26.

Minister's spin was Andy Coulson. It is hard to imagine a more

:02:27.:02:33.

serious case. 13-year-old Milly Dowler disappeared from her home in

:02:33.:02:39.

Walton on Thames in March, 2002. Her plight prompted saturation news

:02:39.:02:42.

coverage and anguished appeals from her family.

:02:42.:02:45.

Someone, somewhere, must know something.

:02:45.:02:50.

She is staying with a friend or someone that she must know, if she

:02:50.:02:55.

is please phone us and let us know. Let the police know. Any

:02:55.:03:01.

information, however small it may seem must be given to us.

:03:01.:03:05.

We need your help. There was a glimmer of hope, it

:03:05.:03:10.

seemed that Milly could have been alive as the contents of her mobile

:03:10.:03:15.

phone was changing, some messages were being deleted.

:03:15.:03:20.

Milly, darling if you are watching or listening to this, mum, dad,

:03:20.:03:24.

Gemma, granny, all of the family want you to know that we all love

:03:24.:03:29.

you and really miss you. We can't wait to have you back home with us.

:03:29.:03:34.

But the hope was misplaced. The Guardian newspaper reported this

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afternoon, that the News of the World had hacked Milly Dowler's

:03:37.:03:42.

phone, deleting messages to make room for new ones to obtain

:03:43.:03:45.

different quotes for stories, it seems.

:03:45.:03:51.

We at the Guardian have spoken to two separate sources who have told

:03:51.:03:55.

us independently that Scotland Yard have obtained evidence that Milly

:03:55.:03:58.

Dowler's phone was hacked by the News of the World and they are

:03:58.:04:02.

currently investigating that. They've been in touch with Surrey

:04:02.:04:06.

Police, they have taken statements from them recently, filling out the

:04:06.:04:09.

detail and that investigation continues.

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The police declined to comment, but if the Guardian is right, the

:04:12.:04:17.

timing is shockingly cynical. The paper went on to irview the family

:04:17.:04:21.

about their hopes and fears without mentioning the phone hacking and

:04:21.:04:25.

tampering. The editor at the News of the World

:04:25.:04:28.

of at the time that this particular episode took place is Rebekkah

:04:28.:04:32.

Brooks, who is now Rupert Murdoch's Chief Executive in the United

:04:32.:04:37.

Kingdom. News International said that this case is clearly a

:04:37.:04:39.

development of great concern and they will be conducting their own

:04:39.:04:45.

inquiries as a result. They will obviously co-operate fully -- fully

:04:45.:04:49.

with any police request. News International is close to

:04:49.:04:55.

securing final Government approval for the full takeover of BSkyB.

:04:55.:04:58.

Rebekkah Brooks is now the Chief Executive of News International.

:04:58.:05:02.

She is also a friend of the Camerons. We don't know if she knew

:05:02.:05:07.

about the Milly Dowler case, but the political dimensions to the

:05:07.:05:12.

story will add fuel to the fire. Richard Watson is with us. What

:05:12.:05:16.

have you learn bad who was in charge of this, who authorised it?

:05:16.:05:21.

This case is shocking, but it does not tell us about who knew what at

:05:21.:05:25.

News International or the News of the World. We don't know if

:05:25.:05:29.

Rebekkah Brooks knew about this Milly Dowler case, specifically,

:05:29.:05:33.

although she was the editor. I suspect that she will be under

:05:33.:05:37.

pressure to speak publicly, but it is time to look at the history of

:05:37.:05:42.

the changing sands of News International. Back in 2009, a

:05:42.:05:45.

senior Chief Executive told MPs, that it was just the Royal

:05:45.:05:49.

Correspondent who knew about the hacking and the liaisons of the

:05:49.:05:53.

private detective, but in April of this year, they were forced to

:05:53.:05:57.

mount a remarkable U-turn, issuing this rather embarrassing statement,

:05:57.:06:01.

saying: It is apparent that the inquiries have failed to uncover

:06:01.:06:06.

important evidence and acknowledged that the actions then were not

:06:06.:06:10.

sufficiently robust. I have been speaking to a source who has given

:06:10.:06:15.

a fascinating insight around the culture of phone hacking with is

:06:15.:06:21.

constructive if true. He says that some senior journalists and junior

:06:21.:06:25.

managers revelled in the title Princes of Darkness. So that all

:06:25.:06:29.

journalists who wanted to get phone hacking commissioned would have to

:06:29.:06:33.

get approval from the so-called Princes of Darkness. It is

:06:33.:06:36.

important to say that all the senior managers have denied

:06:36.:06:41.

approving this action, but if the source is correct it suggests a

:06:41.:06:45.

wider circle of knowledge than previously admitted.

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With us now are Mark Lewis, the solicitor for the Dowler family and

:06:50.:06:54.

a Labour MP, Tom Watson. You have spoken to the family tonight, how

:06:54.:06:59.

are they efeeling? They are obviously devastated and were

:06:59.:07:03.

devastated. They have just gone through an ordeal, a criminal trial,

:07:03.:07:07.

to be notified of the police of this, to know that they were

:07:07.:07:10.

victims of crime and their daughter was a victim of another crime in

:07:10.:07:14.

the respect of phone hacking, just next to this, the people that they

:07:14.:07:18.

thought that they were being supported by have let them down,

:07:18.:07:23.

both the police, the press, everybody was letting them down.

:07:23.:07:27.

Now, we have to be careful about this, there is the question of the

:07:27.:07:33.

deleting of messages on Milly's phone, have they been told for a

:07:33.:07:38.

fact that was -- that happened, firstly, secondly, that it was

:07:38.:07:42.

carried out by somebody, an investigator or somebody that they

:07:43.:07:50.

did not know? How it works is that when people's messages are or the

:07:50.:07:55.

voicemail box is full. The message that goes out is that the voicemail

:07:55.:07:59.

is full, try again later. Subsequently, if people are phoning

:07:59.:08:04.

up and messages are left, the only explanation is that the person is

:08:04.:08:09.

wiping the messages off, so that there is room in the voicemail to

:08:09.:08:13.

leave voicemails. Did that really give them hope?

:08:13.:08:19.

That would have given them hope, I'm sure it did in the particular

:08:19.:08:22.

circumstances, the parents were trying to get hold of their

:08:22.:08:26.

daughter. Tom, what do you make of this

:08:26.:08:31.

is a failure of political leadership. There have been many

:08:31.:08:34.

hints to Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg and David Cameron that something

:08:34.:08:37.

very murky happened with Glenn Mulcaire and the News of the World

:08:37.:08:42.

newsroom. They have let the Dowler family down tonight by not calling

:08:42.:08:47.

for a public inquiry. It is time that they acted. That is the

:08:47.:08:50.

biggest scandal of the lot. Politicians are frightened of News

:08:50.:08:55.

International, they need to act. You are talking about your own

:08:55.:09:00.

leader there? I'm afraid that he is as guilty as David Cameron and Nick

:09:00.:09:04.

Clegg. Politicians across the board let the Dowler family down and the

:09:04.:09:08.

other hacking victims, Parliament needs to speak out and sort this

:09:08.:09:12.

out. What do you think should happen now? I think that all the

:09:12.:09:15.

party leaders should come together and declare that when the criminal

:09:15.:09:20.

investigations are over, that there is a judge-led inquiry to get to

:09:20.:09:23.

the facts and hopefully some goodwill come out of this evil and

:09:23.:09:27.

that is self-regulation of the newspaper industries that works.

:09:27.:09:32.

Do you think this is a tipping point in the way that the public

:09:32.:09:37.

regard the way some of the tabloid newspapers work? Well I think that

:09:37.:09:42.

the PR people at News International have done a good job of persuading

:09:42.:09:49.

people this is just about celebrity tittle-tattle, that is dispeled.

:09:49.:09:53.

Part of the problem is that many are just learning the story, the

:09:53.:09:57.

other scandal is that newspapers have refused to report the facts of

:09:57.:10:02.

the case as it is revealed through the parliamentary einquiries and

:10:02.:10:06.

through the police inquiries. Apparently it is in none of the

:10:06.:10:10.

tabloids tomorrow? Well, can you believe it? They were happy to put

:10:10.:10:13.

the Dowler family on the front pages during the case.

:10:13.:10:16.

Now, the Dowler family's relationship with the News of the

:10:16.:10:21.

World is quite a complicated one. It seems that Milly's phone was

:10:21.:10:24.

being hacked, messages were being deleted, that was obviously

:10:24.:10:29.

changing the way they thought, the hope that they clung to, they also

:10:29.:10:33.

give an interview to the News of the World? What was happening they

:10:33.:10:36.

were amongst people that they trusted, that they thought were

:10:36.:10:42.

getting support it is a widely-read newspaper, an organ of effectively

:10:42.:10:46.

hope of getting in touch with the public looking for things. In fact

:10:46.:10:52.

what we find out is that they were culpable of a gross intrusion of

:10:52.:10:56.

privacy and perhaps people who could be trusted. What you must

:10:56.:11:00.

remember eis that Milly Dowler would not have been someone of

:11:00.:11:03.

interest to Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator, but for the

:11:03.:11:07.

fact that she had been abducted. When that happened somebody at the

:11:07.:11:11.

News of the World had to give specific instructions to say find

:11:11.:11:16.

Milly Dowler, find her phone, listen to it. That person must be

:11:16.:11:20.

absolutely shocked that they have been found out tonight. Why they

:11:20.:11:26.

did that, why Glenn Mulcaire listened to the phone calls also.

:11:26.:11:31.

Have you heard that there were five people at the newspaper, so-called

:11:31.:11:36.

Princes of Darkness to authorise this behaviour? This phrase the

:11:36.:11:40.

Princes of Darkness has been used to describe people. What Tom was

:11:40.:11:44.

saying that people that put this spin on it, with celebrity sports

:11:44.:11:49.

people, ets eets, that they were being listened to, it is something

:11:49.:11:54.

that I have been banging my head against the wall, this is not just

:11:54.:11:58.

about the celebrities, this is ordinary people who are victims of

:11:58.:12:02.

a wide spread practise in the News of the World to get stories

:12:02.:12:04.

irrespective of the harm that they might cause.

:12:04.:12:10.

Do you have reason to believe that there are other cases out there of

:12:10.:12:14.

a similar nature? Fortunately not that many cases, but I think that

:12:14.:12:19.

we while see others involved in that type of thing, I know that Tom

:12:19.:12:24.

has spoken about it in Parliament, that have been subject to hacking.

:12:24.:12:29.

Since this inquiry, a number of whistle-blowers have talked to me

:12:29.:12:33.

privately. There is a strong suspicion that one of the parents

:12:33.:12:39.

murdered by Ian Huntley at Soham have been a target by the News of

:12:39.:12:45.

the World. We would like you to stay, if not,

:12:45.:12:55.

it may not make a difference. Our poll questioning Scottish

:12:55.:12:59.

independence, 48% were against Scottish independence with 36 in

:12:59.:13:04.

favour. That is about the same level of support for cutting the

:13:04.:13:09.

tie north of the border. When we asked a similar question

:13:09.:13:13.

four years ago 16% backed an oint Scotland. If the Scots choose to go

:13:13.:13:23.
:13:23.:13:31.

it alone, the glir may not be too The remainder did not know. When

:13:31.:13:41.
:13:41.:13:44.

The question of Scottish independence has become more urgent

:13:44.:13:47.

since the Scots Nationalists took control of the Parliament in

:13:47.:13:51.

Holyrood. They promise a referendum on independence. No-one is offering

:13:51.:13:55.

the English a vote on whether 300 years of union should be chucked in

:13:55.:14:00.

the bin. We're going to talk further about whether Britain has a

:14:00.:14:04.

future shortly. First, we asked Allan Little what he thought was

:14:04.:14:12.

behind the rise of Scottish nationalism.

:14:12.:14:17.

Even they seem dumbfounded by the scale of their victory. It's game-

:14:17.:14:21.

changing potential. 50 years ago the SNP polled less than 1% of the

:14:21.:14:27.

popular vote. What has happened in Scotland in the course of my own

:14:27.:14:31.

lifetime to turn them into "the" dominant force, one that is

:14:31.:14:36.

changing the political landscape of Scotland? This party, the Scottish

:14:37.:14:42.

party, the national party, carries your hope. We shall carry it

:14:42.:14:47.

carefully. In the Scotland I grew up in, the British state was a very

:14:47.:14:52.

concrete presence. It dug coal, milled steel, built ships,

:14:52.:14:56.

manufactured motor cars. It put the gas and electricity and the phone

:14:56.:15:00.

into your home. The state probably even owned the house you lived in.

:15:00.:15:06.

In the '80s all that changed. Scottish industry was swept away.

:15:06.:15:08.

Something of the shared experience of Britishness was swept away with

:15:08.:15:18.
:15:18.:15:19.

it. Coal mining now belongs to the museum services. It is something we

:15:19.:15:25.

learn that our forebearers once did. This is the mining museum at knew

:15:25.:15:31.

ton grange near Edinburgh. The miners of Fife and the Lothains

:15:31.:15:35.

were part of a shared community with not Hampshire, Yorkshire and

:15:35.:15:38.

South Wales. They told the same history of struggle and social

:15:38.:15:43.

progress. They fought the same fights against the same enemies.

:15:43.:15:48.

They shared the pantheon of folk heroes. It was a pan-British

:15:48.:15:51.

enterprise. Their tradition was one of the bedrocks of British identity

:15:51.:15:59.

in Scotland. And it's gone. With every year that passes, it recedes

:15:59.:16:02.

further and further into a distant collective memory. This is not so

:16:02.:16:06.

much the rise of a new Scottish sentiment, it's more the gradual

:16:06.:16:13.

decay of much of what it once meant to be British. After the Second

:16:13.:16:18.

World War, the union between Scotland and England really meant

:16:18.:16:22.

something. It's the closest the two nations have been since the act of

:16:22.:16:27.

union in 1707. There had been a Great War against a common enemy of

:16:27.:16:31.

fascism. The national health service was being established, this

:16:31.:16:36.

great creation of the post-war Labour Government. Socialism itself

:16:36.:16:42.

was a great integrative force. Then came Thatcherism, socialism

:16:42.:16:46.

disappears, the state is not the same as it was and the ties that

:16:46.:16:52.

bound became gradually loosened. Loyalty to the idea of the British

:16:52.:16:57.

union is written into the street names of Scotland. To pre-war

:16:57.:17:01.

generations the union meant the great shared enterprise of empire.

:17:01.:17:07.

But that's long gone too. So what is left of Britishness? The Queen

:17:07.:17:12.

remains very important, the army and all that kiefpbd thing is

:17:12.:17:17.

important, but -- kind of thing is important, but at the heart, the

:17:17.:17:21.

thing that most Scots feel in the depth of their being is that

:17:21.:17:26.

Britain, a United Kingdom, offers them economic security and I think

:17:26.:17:30.

the experience of our two main banks collapsing has really brought

:17:30.:17:36.

that home to people. People think, hang on, if Scotland had been

:17:36.:17:39.

independent around that time, who would have bailed out our banks?

:17:39.:17:49.

Would we be in the same situation as Ireland or Iceland? Pro-union

:17:49.:17:53.

politicians should be careful with this line of argument. Many Scots

:17:53.:17:57.

remember being warned that even devolution would bring economic

:17:57.:18:02.

disaster. It didn't. Oil has made Aberdeen the second richest city in

:18:02.:18:06.

Britain. Unemployment in Aberdeenshire is less than 2%.

:18:06.:18:10.

There is evidence that many Scots no longer respond well to being

:18:10.:18:15.

told that they couldn't possibly survive alone. Alex Salmond made a

:18:15.:18:20.

rod for his own back when he argued that an independent Scotland would

:18:20.:18:24.

be part of some kind of ark of prosperity that took in Ireland and

:18:24.:18:28.

Iceland. We don't hear much of that argument now. Even so, many

:18:28.:18:32.

Scottish people look across the North Sea to small countries,

:18:32.:18:38.

kprobl population to Scotland, also on the northern periphery of Europe,

:18:38.:18:43.

Finland, Norway, Denmark, which prosper. And they ask: If they can

:18:43.:18:46.

do it, why can't we? Is there really something inherent in the

:18:46.:18:54.

nature of Scotland that makes it uniquely unable to pay its own way?

:18:54.:19:00.

There is a well enTrenched popular perception of the Scots as

:19:00.:19:05.

unproductive subsidy junkies, bailed out year after year by their

:19:05.:19:09.

southern neighbours. What do the Treasury figures reveal? In 2008/9

:19:09.:19:16.

which is the last full numbers, in that year 59 billion was spend on

:19:16.:19:22.

public expenditure and 43 billion came in by way of revenue. That gap

:19:22.:19:29.

between those two figures, can you express it as a percentage of GDP.

:19:29.:19:35.

In GDP between about 2005 and 2008, if you were to, that didn't include

:19:35.:19:40.

North Sea oil revenues, I should caution, if you included that,

:19:40.:19:47.

clearly that's a point for debate, then the percentage of GDP ranging

:19:47.:19:54.

from 1.6 to 2.3%. When you include oil revenue from Scottish waters,

:19:54.:19:57.

Scotland's budget deficit is not very different to that of the UK,

:19:57.:20:02.

fairly normal by European standards. And when the price of oil rises,

:20:02.:20:08.

Scotland's deficit falls below the UK's. Two things Scotland's got no

:20:08.:20:12.

shortage of are these - wide-open spaces with almost nobody living on

:20:12.:20:16.

them and secondly, plenty of this - wind. You just have to stand here

:20:16.:20:21.

for a few mintoits feel the huge potential of it. Alex Salmond's

:20:21.:20:27.

ambition is to turn Scotland carbon neutral by 2020. He talks about a

:20:27.:20:30.

post-oil future in which an independent Scotland would be, what

:20:30.:20:36.

he calls. The Saudi Arabia of renewable energy. Is it more

:20:36.:20:46.
:20:46.:20:51.

achievable inside or outside the United Kingdom? This is Macies --

:20:51.:20:56.

mackies ice-cream, all made in Aberdeenshire and powered by the

:20:56.:21:03.

wind on the hill, the whole process from udder to tub.

:21:03.:21:09.

Mac Mackie is the boss. He has three wind turbines. They power his

:21:09.:21:12.

factory and he sells excess electricity to the National Grid.

:21:12.:21:17.

On balance over a year we produce more electricity on site than we

:21:17.:21:22.

use. We're, from that point of view, carbon neutral. It's a huge

:21:22.:21:27.

opportunity for Scotland. Scotland is the windiest country in Europe.

:21:27.:21:32.

The UK as a whole is a big electricity user. That's why

:21:32.:21:38.

Scotland can become 1 hundred% renewable by 2020, which is the SNP

:21:38.:21:45.

plan. I think we can do that. herein lies the problem for Alex

:21:45.:21:51.

Salmond. Many Scots support him in his drive to carbon neutrality and

:21:51.:21:54.

in many other things, without seeing why they need to leave the

:21:54.:21:59.

United Kingdom to do it. When the Scottish Parliament was set up more

:21:59.:22:03.

than a decade ago, the sky didn't fall in, businesses did not run

:22:03.:22:07.

away to England, there was no flight of capital. It quickly

:22:07.:22:11.

established itself as the undisputed focus of political

:22:11.:22:15.

domestic life in Scotland. But there is something odd about this

:22:15.:22:22.

pafrlt, -- Parliament, it's the only national legislature

:22:22.:22:26.

responsible for spending public money but has no corresponding

:22:26.:22:30.

money to raise it. A consensus has formed among the major parties here

:22:31.:22:35.

that that's got to change. It's about to. Westminster is planning

:22:35.:22:39.

to transfer some responsibility for tax to Holyrood soon. The Scottish

:22:39.:22:44.

Parliament is getting more powerful. And an intriguing new idea is

:22:44.:22:51.

gaining traction, something they're calling devolution Max or

:22:51.:22:54.

independence light. The SNP has been talking about independence in

:22:54.:22:58.

a different way to the way it's been conceived. They accept, for

:22:58.:23:05.

the time being, Scotland would retain the pound sterling. So a lot

:23:05.:23:08.

of economic policy would exist south of the border. There's talk

:23:08.:23:14.

of using the UK diplomatic corps, the UK embassy as broad, perhaps a

:23:14.:23:17.

unified command structure in the army, though they would remove

:23:17.:23:22.

Trident and other ways in which they call a new social union would

:23:23.:23:32.
:23:33.:23:34.

replace the old UK. I went to an agricultural fair in Murray,

:23:34.:23:39.

they're farming folk. In England this would be natural Tory

:23:39.:23:43.

territory. Here they vote SNP. That doesn't mean they'll vote for

:23:43.:23:47.

independence. I don't want to go independent. I look at Norway, the

:23:47.:23:52.

cost of living in Norway at soared at the same population as Scotland,

:23:52.:23:55.

but I would rather be with the United Kingdom. Did you vote for

:23:55.:24:01.

the SNP? Yes, I did. Does that mean you want independence? No. I don't

:24:01.:24:04.

think that would be a good thing for Scotland, no. Why not? I think

:24:04.:24:10.

we need to be united. Stay where we are, keep in close contact to

:24:10.:24:15.

Westminster. But remain semi- independent. Look what happens when

:24:15.:24:19.

you go down the age demographic. What do you do? I'm a lambing

:24:19.:24:23.

shepherd. Does the fact that you voted for the SNP mean you want

:24:23.:24:28.

independence? Yes, I think that is the way forward tore Scotland.

:24:28.:24:33.

-- For Scotland. The debate is no longer about whether independence

:24:33.:24:37.

is feasible. It's about whether it's desirable. For independence no

:24:37.:24:42.

longer means a repudiation of all that is British. It no longer means

:24:42.:24:48.

separation in any meaningful sense and that is the real game changer.

:24:48.:24:53.

Well with us now is the SNP's Joan McAlpine, a member of the Scottish

:24:53.:25:03.

Parliament. Peter Davies a mayor of Doncaster and the Conservative MP,

:25:03.:25:06.

Rory Stewart, the member for Penrith and the borders. If this

:25:06.:25:11.

marriage fails, does it matter? matters very deeply. We'll miss it

:25:11.:25:16.

terribly. It's very easy to imagine you can tear apart, but like any

:25:16.:25:21.

relationship, any intertwined thing, once it's gone, we will miss it and

:25:21.:25:25.

never forgive the governments that tore it apart. What would we lose?

:25:25.:25:29.

It's a mistake to think we lose economics. You can make economic

:25:29.:25:33.

arguments, political arguments. You lose an idea. An idea of union. An

:25:33.:25:36.

idea of what was great about Britain, of England, of Scotland

:25:36.:25:43.

and those are the things that all of us feel. Is there any benefit in

:25:43.:25:47.

this separation to the English? there any benefit to the English?

:25:47.:25:53.

No not that you necessarily care. care very deeply about the English.

:25:53.:26:00.

I'm quite an Anglo-file myself. The English in your own book, the

:26:00.:26:05.

English identity has been rather suppressed by British identity.

:26:05.:26:09.

Whereas Scots had a dual identity through the age of the empire. The

:26:09.:26:14.

English weren't really allowed to express many of their traditions.

:26:14.:26:20.

It would free the English you think, in a way? I think so. Do you think

:26:20.:26:25.

anything would be lost? No, because I think we'd continue to have a

:26:25.:26:29.

strong social union. We would have the Queen as head of state. We

:26:29.:26:34.

would still have a lot of cross- border cooperation. This is part of

:26:34.:26:38.

a process. It's not a divorce. It's in the a break up. It's about

:26:38.:26:44.

Scotland joining in. As an English Democrat, would you worry? Could I

:26:44.:26:53.

be a Scot-ophile? Be whatever you like. Do you care if the Scots

:26:54.:26:59.

decide to go their own way? Not now. If we turn the clock back, I would

:26:59.:27:04.

like to go back to the status quo before the devolution settlement...

:27:04.:27:09.

I thought you were going to the 1700s. No, the devolution affair

:27:09.:27:12.

was a total mistake on the part of the Labour Government. It was done

:27:12.:27:15.

to shore up their own support in Scotland and Wales. They thought

:27:15.:27:18.

they would be in power there forever and a day. Clearly, that's

:27:18.:27:22.

not been the case. The losers in the devolution affair were the

:27:22.:27:29.

English. If I could intervene... got no Parliament. The reason for

:27:29.:27:33.

the Scottish Parliament was because there had been a very, very long

:27:33.:27:37.

campaign within Scotland for a Parliament that allowed a

:27:37.:27:43.

democratic expression for Scotland. I think probably in the end it

:27:43.:27:46.

reflected desires for the Scottish people. I think it would have been

:27:46.:27:51.

dangerous to fight it forever. At the same time, Scotland and England

:27:52.:27:55.

can be independent and confident and Scotland is more independent in

:27:55.:27:59.

the union than it would be. Would you be in favour of further

:27:59.:28:04.

devolution since there seems to still be an appetite for it? Giving

:28:04.:28:08.

more taxation powers is good. But Scotland needs, I'm half Scottish,

:28:08.:28:12.

half English, like many people in this country. It's a reckless and

:28:12.:28:16.

unnecessary thing. People aren't going to stop breeding if the two

:28:16.:28:19.

countries separate. It's perfectly possible. Of course it is. All of

:28:19.:28:23.

this can be done if you want to do it. It's not going to be the cat

:28:23.:28:27.

clix or the end of the world. It would be a crying shame and

:28:27.:28:32.

something we would lose by. What about an English Parliament?

:28:32.:28:37.

ahead. This is about national identity. Why have the English been

:28:37.:28:41.

discriminated against? It's the largest of the four countries and

:28:41.:28:45.

the other three all got their own Assembly or Parliament? You're

:28:45.:28:47.

falling into the trap that the Scottish Nationalists are setting

:28:47.:28:52.

you. They're trying to feel that you're discriminated against.

:28:52.:28:57.

are. Everything they're doing is designed to feel resentful.

:28:57.:29:01.

resentful. You can be confident and proud of being British. I want what

:29:01.:29:05.

they've got. Do you think the English are discriminated against?

:29:05.:29:11.

Absolutely not. The lady in the film was slightly disingenuously

:29:11.:29:14.

from KPMG with her figures. Scotland puts more into the UK...

:29:15.:29:19.

I'm not talking about the economy. I'm talking about the fact the

:29:20.:29:25.

Scots have a Parliament, the Welsh and Northern Irish have an Assembly.

:29:25.:29:29.

The vast majority of Scottish people say they want full economic

:29:29.:29:34.

power, they want job creating power in their Parliament. All that is in

:29:34.:29:38.

London. If the coalition were serious about respect for Scotland,

:29:38.:29:43.

they would give us a Scotland act to allow us the levers over the

:29:43.:29:51.

economy. Do you think, do you feel discriminated against? I've never

:29:51.:29:54.

felt discriminated as English. Supposing that the Scots do decide

:29:54.:29:58.

that they are going to have a referendum on independence, do you

:29:58.:30:02.

think the English should be allowed a voice? I think. So it's natural...

:30:03.:30:06.

They couldn't force the Scots to stay if there were a majority of

:30:06.:30:16.
:30:16.:30:19.

England who said, we don't want it Sorry, can you repeat the question.

:30:19.:30:24.

If you hear some of the poll results that we talked about in the

:30:24.:30:28.

video, the way that things are going over time. You have got even

:30:28.:30:32.

the amount of English people that are saying Scotland should get on

:30:32.:30:36.

and do their own thing, it is increasing. Whereas you ask the

:30:36.:30:41.

Scots, they are inclined to say "no", independence is maybe a

:30:41.:30:47.

little too far. They vote for the SNP but don't want to be an

:30:47.:30:50.

independent country. Are there Scots here who feel that

:30:50.:30:55.

they should be independent? I don't think that the English should have

:30:55.:31:00.

a say. It is a purely Scottish matter.

:31:00.:31:04.

You don't think they should have a say? Not really.

:31:04.:31:09.

I think it is probably a good thing for Rory and his party. I don't

:31:09.:31:13.

think that life will change too much. I think that the Scots and

:31:13.:31:19.

the English get on well. We eget on well now with the

:31:19.:31:23.

pseudoindependence, so what would change? That point is clearly

:31:23.:31:27.

typical of many English, who are not that fussed about it? It is

:31:27.:31:33.

true that we get on well. It has been a very, very difficult period

:31:33.:31:38.

learning to get on well, we didn't before we had a union. We are in

:31:38.:31:41.

danger of opening up rivalries, crisis of identities that none of

:31:41.:31:48.

us need or want and are not going to enfit us. The British Empire

:31:49.:31:53.

used to have Canada, Australia, Ireland. We have great contacts

:31:53.:31:59.

with them, family ties, social ties, economic ties.

:31:59.:32:07.

You have not been at Murrayfield when they are playing? I come from

:32:07.:32:13.

a Scottish family. I don't think that you speak for

:32:13.:32:18.

Scotland when you say that. You mentioned the monarchy, you

:32:18.:32:21.

can't to keep the Queen? That's correct, yes.

:32:21.:32:26.

In the way that Canada does? Exactly. What about the army?

:32:26.:32:32.

the army it is the army that markets itself, there is a Scottish

:32:32.:32:38.

army. Scotland does not have a great deal of union dividend.

:32:38.:32:43.

Deefence spending is cut by 36%. Would you expect to take control of

:32:43.:32:47.

the Scottish regiments in the army? Yes.

:32:47.:32:53.

They would be e be sent into action by Alex Salmond? Not into legal --

:32:53.:32:57.

illegal wars. What you deem legal wars, they

:32:57.:33:01.

would be under a separate command? Of course.

:33:01.:33:08.

What about Scottish banks? Will you take those back too? Scottish

:33:08.:33:14.

banks? Yes, the ones bailed out by the British taxpayers! Well, the

:33:14.:33:21.

Scottish banks cost �6 billion to bail out Scottish GDP at that time

:33:21.:33:25.

was �14 of 6 million, so Scotland was able to bail out its own.

:33:25.:33:29.

If you take the English bankers out of the Scottish bank, they would

:33:29.:33:34.

anybody better shape. A cheap point! Now, supposing this

:33:34.:33:42.

happens, as seems probably now, what would be the consequences for

:33:42.:33:46.

England in your ideal word? would get our own Parliament, which

:33:46.:33:51.

we have not had since devolution started. They rule themselves, the

:33:51.:33:58.

Welsh do, the Irish do, we are ruled by Scots, Welsh, Irish and

:33:58.:34:03.

Europeans, the cradle of democracy has lots its democracy in the House

:34:03.:34:07.

of Commons. So we would get the ability to rule ourselves back. I

:34:07.:34:11.

also thing that we would be able to get out of the European Union as

:34:11.:34:16.

most of the support for it comes from the Scots and the Welsh.

:34:16.:34:20.

You, sir? I think that Westminster has got itself into a serious

:34:20.:34:25.

muddle. I think, I would ask you to consider this, Rory, the fact that

:34:25.:34:31.

Scottish MPs can vote on English matters, is clearly completely

:34:31.:34:33.

wrong. Exactly.

:34:33.:34:38.

And the Westminster model. That is the model, as an Australian it

:34:39.:34:44.

seems bizarre and eccentric that the English have allowed that

:34:44.:34:49.

wonderful model of Parliament to be completely... Go on? I think you

:34:49.:34:53.

have a point. There$$NEWLINE There are big problems, but there is a

:34:53.:34:56.

bigger game. What is happening is that we are

:34:56.:35:00.

coming in on ourselves. We are becoming narrow minded. There are

:35:00.:35:05.

big things that the union have given us over 300 years and will

:35:05.:35:11.

continue to do so. England produces the industrial revolution, Scotland

:35:11.:35:17.

the Scottish enlightenment and yes there will be adjustments, this

:35:17.:35:21.

devolution raises lots of issue, but I'm sure in the world we face

:35:21.:35:25.

it will be better to be a bigger, more confident country, not to fall

:35:25.:35:31.

in ourselves. Look at the pros perity index, not

:35:31.:35:36.

only on economy, but well being and health, the countries at the top

:35:36.:35:39.

are Norway, Finland, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand. The

:35:39.:35:44.

supernational states like the UK and the US are far down. The UK is

:35:44.:35:52.

a very unequal country. It has one of the highest levels of unequality

:35:52.:35:55.

in Europe. We have been trying to move away from that. Moving to

:35:55.:35:58.

independence will be allowing us to go further down that road.

:35:58.:36:03.

I want to move on if I may. Politicallentities in the end,

:36:03.:36:07.

although in the beginning are built on a shared sense of purpose and

:36:08.:36:12.

identity, if, Haas been suggested, that the purpose is wobbly, what of

:36:12.:36:18.

the identity north of the border? The nationalist are building a

:36:18.:36:23.

Scottish officialer identity, but have the English a comparable sense

:36:23.:36:27.

to set against it? Fergal Keane is Irish, we asked him to look at the

:36:27.:36:37.
:36:37.:36:37.

whole question of what being English means now.

:36:37.:36:45.

This is the landscape of the imagined England, the heartland of

:36:45.:36:49.

the Anglo-Saxons. From this land of marsh and wood, came a man we might

:36:49.:36:54.

call the Father of English Nationalism.

:36:54.:36:59.

Hereward the Wake. The celebrated here in Victorian art as the

:36:59.:37:06.

essence of English marshal vigour. Never mind ehe had partly Danish

:37:06.:37:10.

roots. Hereward the Wake harried the Norman conquerers, he struck

:37:10.:37:16.

and then vanished into the Fenland wilderness. Later, generations of

:37:16.:37:24.

writers would myth ol guise him as the symbol of defiance, but it was

:37:24.:37:29.

English pragmatism that triumphed. Accepting Norman rule and

:37:29.:37:34.

ultimately building the world's mightiest empire. A nation founded

:37:34.:37:39.

on the monarchy, the chump and Parliament. In Shakespeare's world,

:37:39.:37:43.

an England never did lie at the proud foot of a conquerer. That

:37:43.:37:48.

stability is really part of the problem for English nationalism.

:37:48.:37:54.

For nationalism to thrive and to become a mass movement it needs an

:37:54.:37:59.

existential threat. The Scots Scots, the Irish and the Welsh had all

:37:59.:38:05.

conquering England as the maligned kol osus against which they found

:38:05.:38:09.

their national identities, but the English have not had a conerr on

:38:09.:38:15.

their own soil in over 1,000 years. Englishness became the dominant

:38:15.:38:20.

identity of the British imperial project.

:38:20.:38:26.

Here in the Fenland town of March, as in so much of the rest of

:38:26.:38:32.

England, English and Britishness are hard to disentangle.

:38:32.:38:36.

We have different sorts of English people talked about in the country

:38:37.:38:41.

from Yorkshire, Wales, with different accents, but really, it

:38:41.:38:47.

is one group of people I'm English, I'm British, I don't care. I'm

:38:47.:38:50.

happy. I always welcomed the concept of

:38:50.:38:53.

Britain with Scotland, Wales and Ireland, but they don't seem to be

:38:53.:38:57.

happy about being a part of the union. That is fine by me.

:38:57.:39:02.

Does it make you resent the Scots? Not at all. As long as they have a

:39:02.:39:10.

passport to come down here for a visit! LAUGHTER! We let ethem in!

:39:10.:39:16.

We're got going to stand for that. You can't push people around like

:39:16.:39:23.

sacks of potatoes. Henry Cornelius's classic, Passport

:39:23.:39:26.

To Pimlico, celebrates an English identity untouched by the

:39:26.:39:31.

insecurities that can afflict the conquered or the colonised.

:39:31.:39:37.

What is the idea of this? But in the age of departing certainties,

:39:37.:39:42.

how should England respond to Scots nationalism? I'm in no doubt that

:39:42.:39:47.

you cannot stand in the way of a distinct people, or a distinct

:39:47.:39:51.

national identity who wish through constitutional change to express

:39:51.:39:54.

that identity. The English have to realise that.

:39:54.:39:59.

The English need to think about the need, the democratic need for an

:39:59.:40:05.

English Parliament. I hope I live and see the day when

:40:05.:40:12.

the flag of St George is flying over the Victoria at Westminster.

:40:12.:40:15.

Throughout modern history, England's political main stream has

:40:15.:40:20.

committed itself to union. Now the task of articulating a

:40:20.:40:24.

definitively English response to the fraying of the union is largely

:40:24.:40:29.

taking place outside of politics. Here at Newcastle, the Scots once

:40:29.:40:36.

laid siege to the city, after taking up arms against the king.

:40:36.:40:41.

Within 50 years of that siege, the two nations were bound together in

:40:41.:40:46.

an act of union which endures still. In many ways this city came to

:40:46.:40:52.

symbolise a British working-class experience shared with men on the

:40:52.:40:56.

collide to the north with ship builders in Belfast, coal miners in

:40:56.:41:00.

Wales. I've come to Newcastle to see if

:41:00.:41:05.

the changes in Scotland might lead to a re-awakening of an English

:41:06.:41:10.

nationalism in those who up until now, were happy to calls themselves

:41:10.:41:18.

British. This region has always had a very

:41:18.:41:22.

delicate relationship with Scotland. In that this region is covered in

:41:22.:41:27.

calfs, built to defend it against Scotland. I'm not sure that people

:41:27.:41:33.

in Northumbria are at a more Northumbrian now because of the

:41:33.:41:37.

existence of skarbl nationalism. I think there is a general English

:41:37.:41:43.

awakenings in the new nationalism of British ness.

:41:43.:41:47.

What does this mean to the people here now? I don't think that it has

:41:47.:41:52.

the intensity of the Welsh, or the Scottish or an Irish identity, but

:41:52.:41:58.

it is about core values that people believe are English. Things like

:41:58.:42:04.

fair play, individualism, about being decent. It is the local or

:42:04.:42:08.

the working-class or ordinary person's view of the values that we

:42:08.:42:14.

see, that all over the world people see as timeless, as being connect

:42:14.:42:24.

the to Britain. As an outsider, I have been struck

:42:24.:42:29.

by the pragmat itch -- pragmatism of English.

:42:29.:42:36.

Like people such as George Orwell, who whom hate had no attraction.

:42:36.:42:41.

Assertism is a more Anglican quality. Ironically, it really

:42:41.:42:48.

characterises what Englishness should be. How-do reenvent that?

:42:48.:42:52.

your congregation, there are those who perceive themselves as proudly

:42:52.:42:56.

British. Do you think that they are reassessing themselves as British?

:42:56.:43:01.

It does make them say, what does it leave for us, who are we? So there

:43:01.:43:07.

is that process. We have seen that, really with efforts to suddenly

:43:07.:43:10.

bring St George's Day back to life and the St George's flag and who

:43:10.:43:16.

owns the flag, there has been a lot of that going on, I think. England

:43:16.:43:22.

till I die! I'm English till I die! This is part of the problem, for

:43:22.:43:28.

what we might call a thinking man's nationalism! The attempt by the

:43:28.:43:34.

far-right to pro Pre-Budget Report -- prooperate Englishness.

:43:34.:43:40.

The signs over that very brutal, rather British assertiveness in the

:43:40.:43:42.

right-wing organisations, something that really scares people, so

:43:42.:43:47.

people are saying we have to claim a better kind of Englishness,

:43:47.:43:54.

reclaim that, but have not yet the answer to what it might mean.

:43:54.:44:00.

But national identity has never been static. How could it be on an

:44:00.:44:07.

island that over centuries absorbed waves of migration? In 40 years 20%

:44:07.:44:11.

of the English population will be made up of ethnic minorities.

:44:11.:44:16.

There was a time when I was in the Midlands, walking past the pub and

:44:16.:44:25.

a series of thugs, basically, swathed in with the George flag

:44:25.:44:30.

started to do seek heil salutes. I was petrified, but even having that

:44:30.:44:33.

experience, I don't think that they have a territorial claim over a

:44:33.:44:39.

national flag, why should they? you had arn ideal of English

:44:39.:44:44.

definition, what would it be? just us. Not them and us. Just us.

:44:44.:44:54.

We need not be apologetic about The Scots aren't about to vanish in

:44:54.:44:59.

a blaze, nor are the English going to succumb the xenophobic

:44:59.:45:03.

nationalism. But the rise of the Scots Nationalist is, at least,

:45:03.:45:07.

nudging the English towards thinking of a -- a world after the

:45:07.:45:15.

union. Nothing less than re-imagining

:45:15.:45:19.

England. Joan McAlpine of the SNP is still

:45:19.:45:23.

here. We're also joined by Owen Jones author of the book Chavs: The

:45:24.:45:27.

Demonisation of the Working Class, Don Letts, the author and film

:45:27.:45:31.

maker who famously introduced the clash to reggae and Michael

:45:31.:45:34.

Portillo, the former Conservative Cabinet minister.

:45:34.:45:39.

What do you think is happening to our sense of identity? I think

:45:39.:45:43.

English initialism in particular is filling a vacuum. There's a crisis

:45:43.:45:47.

of identity in many of our communities. That's to do with

:45:47.:45:50.

class, that idea of being working class in many communities, is a

:45:50.:45:54.

sense that's something you could be proud of. That's come under attack.

:45:54.:45:59.

If we think of industries, you can get Dewey eyed about this, they

:45:59.:46:04.

were often back breaking jobs, there was pride in work. These were

:46:04.:46:08.

the industries which were the backbone of communities. Unions

:46:08.:46:14.

provided a sense of identity. English nationalism has filled the

:46:14.:46:20.

vacuum. You like Englishness don't snu It's worked for me for 55 years.

:46:20.:46:26.

I describe myself as British born black. A term that rolls off the

:46:26.:46:30.

tongue now. Growing up through the 70s that was a very confuegz

:46:30.:46:35.

concept. It waents until the late 80s that being black and British

:46:35.:46:39.

seemed to make some kind of sense. Now in the 21st century you're

:46:39.:46:44.

asking me to decide whether I'm British or English. That's

:46:44.:46:48.

disturbing. I never heard this conversation during more prosperous

:46:48.:46:53.

times. I have to wonder how much is related to the economic climate.

:46:53.:46:59.

may have to do, with respect, your age. It was interesting in the film

:46:59.:47:03.

there, ethnic minority considers himself English. You know, I saw

:47:03.:47:08.

the struggles that my parents' generation went through trying to

:47:08.:47:13.

become angli sized and the soul destroying process it was. Was down

:47:13.:47:17.

to my generation to reclaim a sense of identity and understand what we

:47:17.:47:24.

had to bring to the party, so to speak. You're reassessing

:47:24.:47:28.

everything, aren't you? No, I'm not actually. I think Britishness is

:47:28.:47:34.

and has been for a long time, defined as being anti-fanaticism.

:47:34.:47:40.

It goes back to Elizabeth I, the understanding that fanaticism of

:47:40.:47:43.

Catholics or Protestants would tear the kingdom apart. That is still a

:47:43.:47:47.

characteristic of the British. It is a characteristic shared by

:47:47.:47:52.

Scottish and English people to almost equal degrees. Very strong

:47:52.:47:57.

contributions to Britishness, the enlightenment figures of Scotland,

:47:57.:48:02.

for example. Now, there is a feeling in Scotland that amongst

:48:02.:48:05.

some people they want to distance themselves from England or change

:48:06.:48:10.

their constitutional arrangement. There are some Scots who are anti-

:48:10.:48:15.

English. That doesn't make them non-British. I think the sense of

:48:15.:48:20.

Britishness is still very, very strong. The other characteristic is

:48:20.:48:23.

the sovereignty of the individual and the distrust of the state.

:48:23.:48:28.

don't you like Britishness? didn't say I disliked Britishness.

:48:28.:48:33.

You prefer Scottishness. Britishness is a political

:48:33.:48:38.

construct. I disagree that it's about tolerance. Britishness was

:48:38.:48:43.

first constructed as an emblem of Protestantism. Then it changed

:48:43.:48:47.

again because it's a construct. It changed at the time of empire, it

:48:47.:48:52.

represented empire. For me, Britishness, I don't want to impose

:48:52.:48:57.

identities on anyone else, but for me, it was about the empire and

:48:57.:49:03.

about colonies and about jingoism. Don is perfectly happy with it.

:49:03.:49:07.

am now. But it's been a painful process. It's taken a long time to

:49:07.:49:10.

get here. I can totally see the point that you're making, but I

:49:10.:49:14.

think other people have made the point that it's quite interesting

:49:14.:49:19.

that it's easier for people from a non-white background in Scotland to

:49:19.:49:23.

feel Scottish and Pakistani or Scottish and west Indian than it is

:49:23.:49:28.

for them to say that they're English and Pakistani or English

:49:28.:49:33.

and west Indian. You've gone back to the notion of it being black and

:49:33.:49:36.

white. But it's more complex than it is now. I'm not imposing

:49:36.:49:40.

identity on other people. I can only speak for, for example, in the

:49:40.:49:45.

SNP, we have a lot of members from a Pakistani background. We have

:49:45.:49:49.

members from a Scottish Italian background. They are happy with the

:49:49.:49:52.

dual identity of being Scottish and also the identity of their parents

:49:52.:49:56.

and grandparents' country. thing about Britishness is you can

:49:56.:50:00.

basically define it how you want much that's the problem. One idea

:50:00.:50:04.

of Britishness... That's its strength, surely. One idea is

:50:04.:50:08.

empire, king and empire. You could claim another Britishness of

:50:08.:50:11.

British people throughout the centuries fighting for their rights

:50:11.:50:14.

against absolute monarchy, the chartist, the working class

:50:14.:50:19.

movement, the suffragettes, the NHS, all these things were collective

:50:19.:50:23.

strugzles which people fought for as Scottish, as English and Welsh

:50:23.:50:29.

people. Its plyability is surely its strength. Of course. You could

:50:29.:50:33.

claim another Britishness about those struggles being proud of

:50:33.:50:37.

those fights for democracy. Let's see if anyone here has a clear

:50:37.:50:44.

sense of what Britishness is. Does anybody... Yes, you Sir.

:50:44.:50:48.

Britishness will come of its own again later in this century, it

:50:48.:50:53.

will become the federalism by which each of our individual nations

:50:53.:50:58.

survives. What is it? collectivism, the collective spirit

:50:58.:51:03.

of peoples who are united and working together. What is

:51:03.:51:07.

Britishness? It's aspiration. We're a small country, but we're also a

:51:07.:51:12.

great country. I come from a working class background. I now

:51:12.:51:19.

work in finance. Adam Smith is an inspiration to anybody in finance.

:51:19.:51:24.

People may laugh at that, but you know, innovation, entrepreneurship,

:51:24.:51:29.

technological development, that's what it means to be British.

:51:29.:51:33.

think a main quality of Britishness is a comfortableness with multiple

:51:33.:51:38.

identities. That's a very subtle point. I was

:51:38.:51:41.

going to sate essence of Britishness is, I believe,

:51:42.:51:46.

stability and fair mindedness. As for the previous conversation that

:51:46.:51:50.

we had, I believe that the Scots and the Welsh are more

:51:50.:51:55.

Nationalistic than the English. I think the English are fairly

:51:55.:52:00.

apathetic about nationalism. It's rather odd that we haven't

:52:00.:52:04.

addressed great swathes of recent history. If you accept the point

:52:04.:52:10.

that Britishness is about being anti-fanatical, one of the features

:52:10.:52:16.

of fanaticism has propped up on the European continent, whether it was

:52:16.:52:19.

Napoleon or Hitler, in that respect, there's no difference in the

:52:19.:52:24.

reaction of the Welsh, the Scots or the English. The British reaction

:52:24.:52:28.

to the responsibility of dealing with that has been identical.

:52:28.:52:34.

Britain is not a fair union. It's not an equal union. You're making

:52:34.:52:39.

another point now. It's not. I don't think the point has been made.

:52:39.:52:45.

You've made it many times. can't have an equal union with 10%

:52:45.:52:50.

of the population in Scotland... We're trying to define Britishness.

:52:50.:52:55.

I'm not sure how important it is to go round with a label. I'm half

:52:55.:53:02.

Welsh. I'm watching rugby, if I'm at Lord's I might feel English. If

:53:02.:53:10.

I'm in France I might feel British and if I'm in Vietnam I feel

:53:10.:53:14.

European. If you're watching brave heart you hate the English. What do

:53:14.:53:19.

you make of the way there's an attempt now by the right to create

:53:19.:53:24.

an English identity, which many people in your position and of your

:53:24.:53:28.

persuasion find pretty disturbing. Very much so. There's racial

:53:28.:53:32.

dimensions in particular. A lot of it is to do with insecurities. It's

:53:32.:53:37.

to do with economic insecurities over housing, jobs, which a lot of

:53:37.:53:40.

mainstream politicians have failed to tackle. It's been easy for the

:53:40.:53:44.

far right in particular to say look, people like you aren't getting a

:53:44.:53:48.

house, you're not getting a job, why is it going to this "other",

:53:48.:53:54.

you know back in the day, those were black men, then Asians and

:53:54.:53:57.

today more often than not it's Muslim. That racial aislesed

:53:57.:54:01.

nationalism is very concerning and something which people should be

:54:01.:54:08.

very guarded about. A movement based on hate and intolerance is by

:54:08.:54:12.

its very definition not British. That's the irony. People claiming

:54:12.:54:15.

to be British Nationalists are not British and they demonstrate it by

:54:15.:54:24.

themselves -- their behaviour. do they fly the Union Flag at their

:54:24.:54:28.

rallies. If you have an understanding of Britishness it

:54:28.:54:32.

excludes hate and intolerance. don't think Indians would have said

:54:32.:54:37.

that in the 19th century. But I'm talking about Britain today and I'm

:54:37.:54:41.

talking about the way that has evolved. All countries have evolved.

:54:41.:54:46.

What the United States is now is not what it was between 1860-1865

:54:46.:54:50.

when it fought a Civil War. What Britain has arrived at today, after

:54:50.:54:56.

centuries of experience,... Perhaps you're speaking as an Englishman,

:54:56.:54:59.

very comfortable with the arrangement. I'm talking as someone

:54:59.:55:06.

who is half Scottish actually. Scottish with Spanish parents.

:55:06.:55:10.

Spanish parent. You're British I'd say aren't you? Who do you think

:55:10.:55:14.

are you? I think I'm British and English, with a Spanish father and

:55:14.:55:19.

Scottish mother. You were trying to make a point. One of the problems

:55:19.:55:24.

with these definition that's we hear are that it's so often defined

:55:24.:55:29.

by what it's not. We're against this or anti- that. If you spoke to

:55:30.:55:33.

these far-right people in the English Defence League and said

:55:33.:55:37.

what do you stand for, not what you stand against, personally I think

:55:37.:55:42.

they'd be hard pushed to answer the question. Were you trying to make a

:55:42.:55:47.

similar point? I think that the point that defining British spbs

:55:47.:55:52.

what it's not is not strong enough. That's part of this problem. You

:55:52.:55:57.

can be a chameleon and say we're going to be about evolved

:55:57.:56:01.

Britishness. But the English need to focus in on... I'm not defining

:56:01.:56:08.

it by what it's not. To be anti- fanatical is to take a strong

:56:08.:56:13.

position. The British position in history of opposing fanaticism

:56:13.:56:18.

around the world is just one of the boldest and most magnificent

:56:18.:56:27.

positions taken. That's a very fanatical position. We had the

:56:27.:56:33.

first great European revolution. We overthrew our monarchy in the 17th

:56:33.:56:39.

century about 150 years before the French. Why did we do that? Because

:56:39.:56:46.

we thought it was fanatical. That's the point. These were radical ideas.

:56:46.:56:51.

What you regard as fanatical, but they were very English. When we

:56:51.:56:55.

thought James II was a Catholic, because he was, we overthrew them

:56:55.:57:01.

both. After Cromwell who was a very fanatical Protestant, after he died

:57:01.:57:07.

we got rid of that. We have always owe polesed fanaticism. Throughout

:57:07.:57:10.

history these radical struggles... One of the first acts of the

:57:10.:57:16.

British state, if you like, was a pogrom in the Highlands of Scotland.

:57:16.:57:20.

We're not going back... You're talking about history. But this is

:57:20.:57:25.

an example of tolerance. I want to look forward. If two nations as

:57:25.:57:30.

close in history and in geography and Scotland and England cannot get

:57:30.:57:34.

along in a single political entity, it makes you ask all sorts of

:57:34.:57:38.

questions about the future of Europe, doesn't it? I've been

:57:39.:57:43.

asking those questions for a number of decades, yeah. We just caught up

:57:43.:57:49.

with you. What do you think? Look, it's very worrying at a time when

:57:49.:57:55.

globalisation is at a greater speed than ever. Nationalism is partly a

:57:55.:57:58.

backlash towards that. I'm northern and proud of that. That doesn't

:57:58.:58:03.

mean I want to break England into ever smaller units. I can deal with

:58:03.:58:07.

the term being British, but there's something worrying about a trend

:58:07.:58:12.

towards defining Englishness that, to me, wreaks of something stuck

:58:12.:58:15.

between hunkering down, an old boys network and running scared and

:58:15.:58:19.

looking for somebody to blame. It's a worrying trend. It seems to me to

:58:19.:58:24.

be a step backwards. Thank you all very much. Now tomorrow morning's

:58:24.:58:29.

front pages. The tabloids do not have any of the Milly Dowler story

:58:30.:58:35.

on the front page. The Sun has news of Ashley and Cheryl Cole

:58:35.:58:39.

apparently about to get married again.

:58:39.:58:44.

A soldier has been killed in Afghanistan in the Mirror. You'll

:58:44.:58:51.

have to pay for your care after you retire on the Daily Mail front page.

:58:51.:58:56.

Ieb profin a Daily Express health care. And Milly Dowler is on the

:58:56.:59:03.

front of the Guardian, the paper which has pursued this campaign

:59:03.:59:07.

pretty relentlessly. In the Times, the main story is about the case

:59:07.:59:12.

for adoption, with photographs of various people who were adopted and

:59:12.:59:16.

the Daily Telegraph has news of the Milly Dowler phone hacking by the

:59:16.:59:20.

News of the World. And the European Central Bank, according to the

:59:20.:59:24.

Financial Times is ready to reject a downgrading of the rating of

:59:24.:59:28.

Greece. That's enough for now. I'm back

:59:28.:59:38.
:59:38.:00:04.

Hello there. I hope you enjoyed the fine and warm start to the week.

:00:04.:00:09.

The weather is on the change. We will see rain through the rest of

:00:09.:00:14.

this week. For one more day across eastern parts of England, it stays

:00:14.:00:17.

fine and warm before that weather front arrives. Rain pushing into

:00:17.:00:20.

the Midlands through the afternoon. For East Anglia and the south-east,

:00:20.:00:24.

it should be pleasant with sunshine. Temperatures into the mid20s,

:00:24.:00:29.

though rain arrives heading towards evening time. Wetter out west.

:00:29.:00:33.

There will be brightness developing through the afternoon, across

:00:33.:00:37.

south-west England and Wales. The chance of showers pushing in on a

:00:37.:00:42.

gusty wind and temperatures lower than recently. After a wet start

:00:42.:00:46.

across Northern Ireland, we'll see sunshine and heavy showers through

:00:46.:00:49.

the afternoon. Maybe some thunder mixed in too. For Scotland, we'll

:00:49.:00:53.

see patchy rain extending its way west to east during the course of

:00:53.:00:59.

the day. Now then looking further ahead, it's much more unsettled.

:00:59.:01:03.

There will be rain around. Temperatures lower than recently.

:01:03.:01:07.

Held in the midteens across northern areas. Sunshine further

:01:07.:01:14.

south, but the risk of further, heavy rain at times and gusty wind

:01:14.:01:19.

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