12/07/2011 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

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The phone hacking scandal appears to have sunk Murdoch mur's attempt


to takeover BSkyB television. The man who once had politicians dance


to his tune, now finds them united in opposition. Even the leadership


of his own News Corp is now in question. As politicians of all


parties turn on the family and its Lieutenant, are the Murdochs facing


both internal revolt and external. News International was involved in


hiring people to get this information. The people they work


with are criminals, known criminal, criminals with records. Senior


police officers too feel the heat. Did you receive payment from any


news organisation? Gooden, absolutely not, I can't believe you


suggested that. We're joined by a former Conservative Party chairman


a former newspaper editor, and you know who.


Also tonight, the slow motion car crash of the eurozone debt crisis,


can Europe's gathered finance ministers wriggle out of the latest


mess. In Northern Ireland, why is there rioting in a society now


The phone hacking scandal is like a match dropped into a box of


firework, no-one knows what is going to explode next. Today the


former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, accused another News International


title, the Sunday Times, of using known criminals to invade his


privacy. Policemen did their best to explain why their investigation


had been so useless. Tonight the leaders of the three main parties


have been holding talk about what sort of inquiry should be held. We


have the latest. What has been happening tonight? David Cameron


has been talking to Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg and also to Paul


Stevenson, the Metropolitan Police commissioner. They are pretty close,


the parties, to agreement, on the inquiry. I say inquiry, because it


now looks like there aren't going to be two inquiries, but


effectively there will be one. This will be announced in a statement to


be given by the Prime Minister to the Commons after Prime Minister's


Questions tomorrow. Initially David Cameron was talking about a


judicial-led inquiry to look into the News of the World case what


specifically went on there, and a second non-judicial inquiry into


media practices and ethics. Now effectively it looks like the media


practice and ethics part of it will be a sub-committee of the judicial


inquiry. It is quite likely tomorrow that we will hear which


judge has been appointed to do the job. Equally important, it looks


like Labour and the Liberal Democrats have persuaded David


Cameron to widen the terms of this inquiry, the judicial inquiry, so


that it will be looking into not just what went on in the news news,


but relations between the press and the police in general, and also


relations between politicians and the press in general. L as I


understand it, it is intended - also, as I understand it, it will


mean politicians and newspaper editors will have to come along and


give testimony under oath. This means that parliamentary debate


tomorrow will be something of a damp squib, isn't it? Well, it is n


way. Because the parties have agreed that they will support


Labour's opposition motion, which is that this House believes it is


in the public interest for Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation to


withdraw their bid for BSkyB. The Liberal Democrats announced they


can go along with that, and so too has the Government now. There is


some question as to whether there will actually be a vote tomorrow.


If nobody opposed that, then the Speaker asks for aclammation, and


if nobody - acclaimation and if nobody says anything then it is


passed. It would be a good idea to have a formal vote, so you not only


have a list of name there is, but also if the vote was 528-2, that


would be a more powerful message to News Corporation, than simply by


acclaimation. It would be interesting to know who the two


were. What about Gordon Brown's intervention today, this was quite


new, wasn't it? Yes, we heard last night about a number of activities


that other newspapers, beyond News of the World, the Sun and the


Sunday Times h allegedly been doing in relation - had allegedly been


doing in relation to Gordon Brown in particular. The story the Sun


broke about his son Fraser having cystic fibrosis, which they broke a


few months after his son Fraser was born. This is Gordon Brown's


reaction in an interview by the BBC. REPORTER: How did that affect you


as a father? In tears. Your son is now going to be broadcast across


the media. Sarah and I incredibly upset about it, we are thinking


about his long-term future, we are thinking about our family, but


there is nothing you can do about it. I find it quite incredible that


supposedly reputable organisations made their money, produced its


commercial results at the expense of ordinary people, by using known


criminals, that is now what has to be investigated. With us now is the


spokesman for the Hacked Off campaign, Hugh Grant, executive


editor of the Times and Lord Fowler who used to head the communications


committee. Your organisation is seeing David Cameron tomorrow, what


are you asking him for? We were worried, given that it was only two


or three weeks ago that David Cameron was sipping Pimm's on


Rupert Murdoch's lawn, we were worried in case we can really trust


him to have done a permanent turn about in the way he seems to have


done. We were worried particularly given the Culture Secretary's


statement in the House the other day, on the proposed terms of the


inquiry, that it looked a bit feeble. It looked like maybe


Cameron's choice was to sort of slightly push the whole thing into


the long grass and not do a proper inquiry. The Hacked Off group,


which includes lawyers and journalists and so on created a set


of terms that we thought the inquiry should include, they are


published in the Guardian tomorrow and they are on-line now. We have


been going around asking the leader of the opposition and Nick Clegg.


They are on board. The next stop is Cameron. It sounds from what we


heard just now he's on board now. The meet something rather


unnecessary? It is rather unnecessary me being here if that


is true. You guys want, the inquiry under a judge? One. And you say


that should happen at the same time as any police inquiry? Because we


only heard today from Aikers this could take years an inquiry.


judge could require them to take evidence under oath and they would


be required to incriminate themselves? We are told by top


lawyers you can circumnavigate that if you are a decent judge and you


can get the inquiry going on under all kinds of basis before calling


in people who might or might not incriminate themselves. What about


this inquiry? I think it would be good to look at the way newspapers


have operated, obviously things have gone on that are wrong, a lot


of people have been punished and a newspaper has been closed, which is


a great sadness in my view. Some of the mud is sticking to the


reputation of the British press and British journalists and journalism,


which I think is the best in the world, it is fierce and robust.


Clearly there is an inquiry, it has been set up, I fear for the future


of regulation, I fear we will move into a much more state-controlled


organisation looking at the press. I think this will be bad for the


freedom of the press and for journalism. Why are you shaking


your head? I just think that's rubbish that last part. I have been


pressing for an inquiry into this since February. I'm delighted that


we are having one. I think there are a whole range of areas you can


go into, without in any way interfering with the criminal


process. The Press Complaints Commission, to say, you don't


necessarily have to have a statutory commission, but I think


no-one would argue, I think, for a moment, that the Press Complaints


Commission come out of this smelling of roses. They haven't


been able to actually. I would, I was on it for a long time. I'm not


sure that is the best defence if you don't mind me saying so


personally! It hasn't exposed what has taken place there. Now, that


may be because it didn't have the power, or maybe it didn't have the


will, but we need to actually have a look at those sorts of things.


That can take place without interfering in any way. Plus we


could start to look at one of the things, we were so keen at Hacked


Off was within the remit of the inquiry, which is the politicians'


relationship with the media. Which has started to look very smelly to


the public. How frightened are politicians of News International.


You will never get an answer to that in an inairy. Somebody will


say they were scared of - an inquiry, somebody will say they


were scared. And was there any nobbling of a politician, to what


extent. Why otherwise were both main parties utterly cosied up to


Murdoch for so long if there wasn't an element of fear? They weren't


utterly cosied up, political leaders talk to major businessmen,


there is nothing wrong with that at all. I think Hugh Grant is right, I


was chairman of a political party, I do know this, although I have to


say under John Major we weren't very successful in cosying up to


anyone. Were you ever scared? what? Of being expoded by a


newspaper for something, did you ever - exposed by a newspaper for


something, did you ever feel beholden to a newspaper? No, I'm


not very good at this. This looks like the political class trying to


get a bit of revengs for the whole stuff over MPs' expenses and


bringing the press to heel so they don't ask awkward inquiries? That


is not my view. I think the healthy thing that should come out of all


this, Roger might agree with this, is you get some clear water between


the political parties on one side and the media on the other. What


has gone wrong with this relationship is this cosying up


with the relationship. Tony Blair going over to Australia to speak to


executives of News International, you don't get that in ordinary


relationships. And the Christmas dinners with Rebekah Wade. Why


aren't they on the record? That was a private dinner, why shouldn't


people have a private dinner. stinks. He can have dinner what


with whoever he likes? Not if it is major corporation trying to take


over our biggest satellite broadcaster t stinks to high heaven,


with a huge criminal suspicion hanging over it, because the phone


hacking thing has been around for a long time. Would he have had dinner


with the chairman of BP if they criminal stuff hanging over them.


That sort of thing won't happen in future. What you will find is


political leaders and politicians generally will be very cautious


indeed, I hope in the same way that the media will also be very


cautious. If we can have a new start, as far as all that is


concerned, I think it is in everyone's interest. I think that


will happen. I think the natural position for journalists as an


outsider, you are observing, you're citising, and analysing and trying


- criticising and analysing and trying to find out what is going


wrong, you can't get too close. you have got too close. I remember


in the Sun in the 1992 election, it was the Sun that won it. It was


complete rubbish. Can I just say one tiny thing about, that the Sun


headline about the last one in turn the lights out. That wasn't telling


people to not vote for Neil Kinnock, it was recognised and if people


voted for Neil Kinnock they would be bonkers, and nobody did vote for


him. If I was Neil Kinnock I might not take that rosy view. The press


follow and adapt and adjust, they don't govern people. I think


politicians have faken it far too much that it is the press that can


actually influence the outcome of elections. Is this just about the


murd mur press or is it wider than that? - Murdoch press or is it


wider? It is wider, we all know, that we will gradually learn how


much wider it was. Hopefully under this inquiry. Good investigative


journalism such as the Guardian and the Independent have done brilliant,


more and more will come out. I think there will be civil cases


coming out, I speak from very close experience.


I think the extraordinary thing in one way, is it has suddenly come


out now. If you go back to 2006, you had the Information


Commissioner putting much of this evidence into the public domain


then, and absolutely nothing was done about it. That wasn't about


phone hacking but breaches of the data act. It was about bribing.


was the whole culture, you have private detective, you have the


press, you have all the issues which are coming up in phone


hacking, what was done then? Nothing. Did parts of the press


take that as a green light for going on and doing things, I think


they probably did. I think unquestionable parts of the press


used private investigators far too much, and they became lazy and


didn't find it out for themselves, it has come to an end. It is more


than lazy it is illegal. Only the other day the Sun published my


medical records, when I tried to sue them, you tried to do it with


good humour, I say let's not go to a big legal cautious give me �5,000


for a charity. They thought they were entirely within my rights to


steal my medical rights and put them in their paper. When people


say it is a thing of the past, it is bollocks. Nobody would condone


that, it is truly bad behaviour and these things will start to fade and


go. The big campaigns of the past, you take Harry Evan, Sunday Times,


thalidomide. We have just had a huge campaign of trying to change


the nature of abortion, adoption, I apologise. With respect, I don't


think it is quite the same. We have led the campaign against the


stoning of the women in Iraq. is one thing, what you are not


doing is you are not investigating in the way the Sunday Times, in


those days, investigated thalidomide, my point is that they


never did this with phone hacking, they did it by patient digging, and


that you could say the same about what happened in Washington as well.


That's where the whole thing has changed. The press have used short


cuts and illegal short cuts and not actually to do things of public


interest. To find out who Ryan Giggs is having sex with, who cares.


Ifrpblgt say you found out about arms smuggling or a child sex


racket, would that be OK, what about the WikiLeaks, that is stolen


document. The end, does that become a legitimising thing. I'm asking,


we are in an unknown world there. It is not that unknown, if it is


illegal it is illegal, it is against the law. What is the public


interest? The public interest is that the law should be upheld, if


the press can't see that then I mean, frankly, it shouldn't just be


the News of the World. There was a public interest in expenses and


this was questionably highly legal at times? I don't think there have


been any prosecution ones that one, we have all agreed, I think, and I


don't disagree there are lines, difficult lines, what isn't


difficult is to actually condemn phone hacking and condemn the sort


of thing that happened to Hugh Grant and a whole range of other


people. Thank you all very much. Quite apart from what happens to Mr


Murdoch's plans, there is the minor matter of how to salvage what's


left of the reputation of the Metropolitan Police. Senior


officers were called before House of Commons select committee today


to explain how they had so comprehensively failed to carry


through a proper investigation into apparent evidence that nearly 4,000


people were hacked. The word "unimpressed" doesn't quite catch


the measure of the MPs' disbelief. We have spent the day watching the


detectives. They had bags of evidence,


literally, bin bag, brimming with names and dates. It is just that


no-one seemed to have much of what to do with it. The Met's finest


hour, it certainly wasn't it? sounds like Cluso, rather than


Columbo. Why did this investigation go so badly wrong? It was only


triggered in the first place because of fears, founded fears, as


it turned out b royal phones being hacked. It was led, therefore, by


anti-terror police. Frankly, they weren't interested in lesser


victims, nor were they interested in cleaning up dodgy press


practices. Another reason we learned today was about News


International, they had, according to detective, willfully obstructed


the investigation and lied to police. If at any time News


International had offered some meaningful co-operation instead of


prevarcation and what we now know to be lies, we would not be here


today. Former Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Peter Clarke, was in


charge of the day-to-day running of the original investigation? I know


it sounds a slightly banal point, that would you expect criminals to


co-operate with the police, of course you don't, this is slight


low different, I don't mean to be flipant here from someone taking


the lead off the church roof, this is a global organisation with


access to the best legal advice n my view deliberately trying to


thwart a criminal investigation. Was there, MPs wanted to know a


more sinister reason the investigation failed. Former


Assistant Commissioner, David Haye was in overall charge at the time.


During the investigation he was a dinner guest of...News


International. You have made a judgment call to accept hospitality,


from people who you are investigating for criminal offences,


that is correct isn't it Yeah. why didn't he decide, you know, not


to go to dinner? Not to have that dinner, I think, would have been


potentially more suspicious than to have it. Suspicious? Well, I don't


know why you're laughing...Just months after retiring as a


policeman, Mr Hayman went to work for...News International? How vu


any idea how this looks to the public.


(inaudible) I take that on the chin. The atmosphere quickly went from


incredulity to hostility. Did you ever receive payment from any news


organisation? Gooden, absolutely not, I can't believe you suggested


that. Lots of people did. Come on, hang on, I'm not letting you get


away with that. At the conclusion of the first


investigation, the News of the World's Academie Royale des Beaux-


Arts editor, Clive Goodman, and the private investigator, Paul McMullan,


pleaded guilty and were jailed. Everyone knew phone hacking went


further than royalty, people in sport, entertainment and politics,


the police had 11,000 pages of Paul McMullan's notebook, containing


thousands of names. When more allegations of the scale of phone


hacking came to light in 2009, the Met Commissioner ordered John Yates


to look into. It he spent a few hours looking into it, concluding


everything was fine. I consider no further investigation is required


after further looking into it. Yates, still a senior serving Met


officer admitted he got this one wrong. Had I known in July 2009


what I now know, I would have made different decisions. I express


clearly and publicly my impact on those affected as a result. Time


and time again the committee wanted to know why, when Assistant


Commissioner Yates said he looked at the evidence, didn't he actually


look at the evidence? At the end of the session the chairman gave the


officer this rebuke. I think your evidence today is unconvincing and


there are more questions to be asked about what happened when you


conducted this review. The final witness today was Deputy


Assistant Commissioner sue Akers, she is now leading the


investigation into all that evidence. She has confirmed there


are 3,800 potential victims, she told the committee she intends to


get answers. I'm confident we have an excellent team, who are working


tirelessly to get this right. I hope that I don't have to come back


here in five years time to explain why we have failed. That is a


potential date to pencil in, by July 2016, we might just have got


to the bottom of all of this. I'm joined now by Peter Neru, who


was, until last year, the head of the national police improvement


agency and before that spent four years as Chief Constable of Thames


Valley Police. What was the worst moment in the testimony for you


today? I think the worst moment was the incoherence of the decisions in


the early stages. Let's take Andy Hayman, a very senior police


officer, did you know he wanted to be a journalist? It was news to me.


Were you impressed by his testimony? Not wholly. I think the


big problem that came out there for Andy Hayman was the public


perception around the job he had moved into, so shortly after


leaving the force. What is the feeling within the force about how


he behaved? I think there is a general feeling about colleagues


who go and then decide to comment on colleagues, without objectivity.


He suffers from that, I think. about the various excuse that is


were given for the fact that 11,000 pages of evidence were not examined.


While I can understand the argument about priorities, but the claim,


for example, from Mr Yates, that it would have taken five or six


officers, four or five months to go through it, is that plausible?


feels a little bit long. How long would it have taken you? Go back


into the evidence there were some important points made by Lord Blair


at the beginning, and then by Peter Clarke, which was the coincidence


of other events. I ran a large force, but nothing like the


pressure of the type of events that they were dealing with. We all


understand that the London bombings took priority over absolutely


everything. But the allegation that it would take five or six officers


four or five months, or four or five officers five or six months s


that plausible? That feels a bit excessive. I would have spent


someone to form a careful triage, it wouldn't have taken that long to


work out the quantum you have. do we make of the suggestion that


senior officers of him don't do binbags s there a level in the


force where you don't investigate any more? I dealt with the


investigation into the investigation of the death of Dr


David Kelly, I didn't read all the material, but I satisfied myself on


all the lines of inquiry. It is the line between there. You can't do it


all, you are overseeing the whole of the inquiry. I do have some


sympathy with that approach. wouldn't take long to skim and say


this is worth investigating? would have expected a good summary


of what was there. It took about eight hours is that long enough?


it is 1,000 pages that feels short. I would have expected a good


summary. What has this done to public confidence in the police?


Not a lot. I think if you follow it through, and I can see the way that


the evidence was set out f you follow it through on the basis of


it was busy when they did it, they were focused on doing the royalty


issues, the ones that were really staring them in the face, I'm


troubled there wasn't a fresh attempt to look back at it. People


were failed, there are 3,800 people whose phones were hacked, and most


of them haven't the faintist idea, their numbers were there? The Met


are admitting they dropped the ball. There was failure, conspicuous


failure here? I wouldn't have been happy with that investigation,


personally, no. Do you think people should be sacked for it? That's


where I have trouble with what's going on with Labour MPs calling


for John Yates to resign without a proper inquiry being conduct. That


is premature, and I think John felt that was unfair at this stage. Not


least of which he was one of a number of people with oversight of


it, and he is a superb investigator. It was only months that the press


was laweding him for the investigation into the payments for


honours, that was a difficult political investigation.


Tomorrow we will be having an invited audience live in the studio


to see how the scandal has changed the way the rest of the country now


sees the British press. We had to stop dithering, you can have


blackouts or investment, which do you want, was the Energy


Secretary's pitch today as he set out his plans for the electricity


market. As anyone who has had to pay for an electricity bill


recently, the cost is spiralling. If you were hoping for comfort,


forget it, the Government's policy is for it to cost more. Demand will


carry on rising, and the lights will start going out. More money


for nuclear and carbon capture and renewable energy, which in turn


means higher bills. The estimate is that we need �200


billion more investment by 2020 for new renewable energy, power


stations, including new nuclear power stations, and an updated grid.


But for consumers it will mean higher bills, potentially hundreds


of pounds a year higher. The Government says the increase in


average bills will be limited to �160 a year by 2030, but that is on


top of the rises that are already happening. Only last week the UK's


biggest energy company, Centrica, put up its gas prices by 18% and


its electricity prices by 16%. Scottish Power has also announced


price increases of 19% for gas, and 10% for electricity. With us now is


the Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne, don't you think people are paying


enough for electricity? Yes I do. Why are we paying more? We don't


want to pay more. The key thing is to insure ourselves against the


volitility that we have seen on international oil and gas markets.


We have Libya, we have a big 30% increase in world gas prices, that


is what is hitting us. They will pay more, as a consequence of your


policy they will pay more? No. will not? Ifth depends on if we go


on reliant on gas markets, we will be buffeted. If we go own to low


carbon sources, like renewables and nuclear, we will have much less


impact on the domestic economy and prices. It is an insurance policy.


People will pay more than they are now? It is inevitable, if we have


more investment, we have to have replace a quarter of our capacity,


tes inevitable to pay more. have just referred to nuclear. Your


manifesto said last year you would reject new nuclear power station,


saying it is a far more expensive way of producing power than


promoting green energy? We are doing, by the way, conservation of


energy, we are doing a lot of energy saving, it is a key part of


the energy bill. But you are not reject Agnew generation of nuclear


power station, you were - rejecting a new generation of nuclear power


stations? We accepted it as a compromise. It is like tuition fee,


you say one thing and do something else? We had to reach agreement on


these issues to make sure we have a proper energy policy to get it into


place. Is there anything in your next manifesto we should believe,


on nuclear power you stood on your head and tu accident fees? The four


- - and student fees? The four key things on our manifesto we stand on.


Kindly tell us which ones to believe next time? You have to work


out what will be the other party and what they will say. In tax


fairness we have taken 1.1 million people out of tax in our manifesto.


That was a key priority. Pupil premium that was a key priority for


us. What you said before the election, it is extraordinary the


leader, David Cameron, who wants to be Prime Minister, ememploys Andy


Coulson. You were right there, weren't you? Well, the Prime


Minister has clearly reached an accommodation on that issue, we


know perfectly well what happened, Andy Coulson resigned. The News


International inquiry continues and the police have started seriously


inquiring into the activities. was bad judgment on the Prime


Minister's part? It is up to the Prime Minister whom he employs as


director of communications, it was clear what I said at the time.


you support him? I warned Nick, it was clear at the time, Nick indeed


warned the Prime Minister, it was very clear, as a result of that,


this was a decision that the Prime Minister took on his own account.


But you say that he was a man who was at best responsible for a


newspaper that was out of control, and at worst was personally


implicated in criminal activity. Do you admire the judgment of a leader


who can make thater sort of decision to appoint someone like


that? I think it is perfectly commendable to offer someone a


second chance, but I standby the judgment I made about Andy Coulson,


given what I knew at the time about what was going on at News


International, and given what we have subsequently found out. Let's


talk about Rupert Murdoch, do you think there is any role for him in


the media in this country? There are increasing problems, the more


we see with News International, the problems that were clearly there at


the News of the World, seemed to be spreading to the Sun, maybe seen


the Sunday Times, Gordon Brown's evidence today. The more this looks


like an organisation that will be very hard to find a fit and proper


organisation to be the major shareholder of a broadcasting


organisation like BSkyB. You have had your own problems with the


Sunday Times, you are a former journalist, do you not worry about


the inhibition that will be placed upon proper free report anything


this country if some of these restrictions get their way? There


shouldn't be restrictions. We do need a clear means of increasing


the standards of journalism, and of making sure there is a proper


complaints procedure. That is what we don't have with the Press


Complaints Commission. I think there is a long way to go. Making


sure that people are held individually to account, making


sure there is due prominence to corrections, making sure for


example that newspapers have to pay fine, on a self-regulating basis,


but I entirely agree, I don't think we should chill investigative


efforts of newspapers, freedom of the press is absolutely essential.


Guess what, there's another crisis or the makings of a crisis in the


eurozone this time it is not one of the smaller economies like Greece


or Ireland, although their bonds were downgrade today junk today. It


is Italy, the third-biggest in the entire eurozone, the potential


consequences if the Italians can't pay their enormous bills, are so


serious, that today stock markets across Europe dropped for the third


consecutive session. Our man with the cold eye is Paul Mason. What is


up? Italy's problems started, because anything that looks like


Greece, with Greece hovering on the point of default, gets investors


worried. Italy is trying to put together an austerity package, some


think it isn't that well designed, they are having it true to get it


through. And Mr Beryl's Last Year chose this moment to ring up a


national newspaper and say this about the Finance Minister, "you


know he thinks he's a genius, and everyone else is stupid, I put up


with him because I have known him so long ". To the bond markets this


began to sound a little bit like Greece. Economists had thought it


was Spain in the firing line next, when the Euro-took off in 2010 so,


did Spain's borrowing, this is the graph showing what it cost Spain to


borrow and Germany, Italy bubbled under, with Mr Berlussconi's


intervention and continued indedecision in the eurozone, it


has shot up close to Spanish levels, too high. That indecision continued


today. Finance ministers from the eurozone broke up, yet again,


without any concrete answers to the question, how much of Greece's debt


should be written off, and who should lose money. By sitting on


Greece and letting that fester, they have undermined investor


confidence and it has seeped into other countries, particularly on


the coast of Italy, Italy, if you like is the consequence of not


dealing with Greece. Why should we worry about this? Italy's debt is


120% of its GDP, the second-biggest debt in the eurozone. Unusually


that is mainly owned by Italians, not the big foreign investor,


Italian banks and people. It is the third biggest bond market in the


world, after the Americans and Japanese, if it goes it goes big


time. We can't bail it out. There is the politics. The Italian


opposition told me today they are prepared, unlike Greece, to vote


for the austerity, but their price will be national Government and


goodbye to Berlussconi. As the opposition party we offered today


to the majority the possibility to approve immediately, just in four


days, the financial adjustment for 40 billion euros, the day after we


say we want the resignation of the Government, and we want to have a


new Government with a big majority, without Mr Berl sconey as leader.


There are fresh reports of violence in Northern Ireland tonight. 20


police officers were injured last night, as Protestant testants


marched in celebration of King Billy's win at the Battle of the


Boyne some 300 years ago. There is worries that there is a resurgence


of paramilitary activity. Northern Ireland is at peace, what is going


Everyone agrees they were the worst nights of rioting seen in Northern


Ireland for many years. What caused this eruption of Protestant testant


fury in east Belfast is hard Tory pin down.


When it kicks off it is always the Catholics that start it, so it is.


I don't know how it could be resolved, to be honest, there has


been that much anger between Protestant testants and Catholics.


(gun shots) The area that came under attack is a so-called


interface, where long into the peace process, Catholic and


Protestant testant homes still have to be separated by high walls. Just


show me some of the photographs. On the loyalist side community workers


use workers to assure me the violence came ol only after


provocation from the Catholic Short Strand. Residents have collected in


their gardens, bolts, rocks. They could hit you on the head. This all


happened in the last few months? would say over the last six to


seven months there has been a lot of attacks in the homes around the


interface areas. But I'm told of another reason? There is so much


hatred between the two communities, it is never going to end. Why not?


It is just wait people are brought up. Retaliating, we will not stand


and watch it. This youth took part in the riots, he wanted to remain


anonymous? I don't know what happened, a lot of youngsters went


down and helped out. That is what I call it, I call it helping out.


What did you do to help out? Just throw a couple of missiles, bricks,


bottles, anything you can get a hold of, throw them over. Does the


peace process mean anything to you? I don't really understand all that


peace process stuff, so I don't. It is not working, as you can see.


These teenagers have a different outlook, at the even have Catholic


friend, and yet they don't feel able to see them. I talk to them


and stuff, I could text them, but I would never see them. It is just


awkward, if someone sees you going down to the Strand or sees them


coming out of the strand you will get done in. In what way? Like if


somebody seen you walking down to the Strand and seeing you come out


again, do you know what I mean, they will ask what are you doing


going in there. They all feel progress is a long way off. I don't


think anything will make a difference, to be honest, I think


the problem has been there for that long it will always be there. Even


if action was taken, I don't think it will make a difference.


Jobs have become scarceer for the unionist working-classs that once


manned the shipyards, there is a festering view that Catholics have


left their loyalist neighbours in their wake. If you have ailation


and demonisation of one section of the community, it breeds bitterness


and violence. People will not invest, and it will be used by


unscrupulous people and manipulated by them. You are found to have


violence arising in the toxic sectarian atmosphere which is


Northern Ireland. And members of the biggest loyalist paramilitary


group, the UVF, are aused of exploiting it. Throughout the years


of the troubles, the murals reflected what was going on in the


estates, where the paramilitaries were concentrated. During the years


of peace they got more community minded. In east Belfast


commemorating the Titanic, built just a few streets away. But take a


look at this money, repainted just a few weeks ago. It didn't reflect


anything, it foretold the trouble we have seen on the streets. And


the message from loyalism seems to be what was said about the IRA once,


they haven't gone away, you know. And they don't seem interested in


politics. Brian Irvine failed to get elected as the loyalist


representative in the May elections. The main leadership of the UVF wish


to move on, they wish to leave the stage. But there are elements


within the UVF, I believe do not wish to do so. They have their own


agenda, and their own reasons for that. The intentions of the UVF mr


deeply, at a time when the Government says the threat to the


mainland from Northern Ireland terrorism has increased. Whether or


not loyalist paramilitaries orchestrated the street violence, a


lot of them were there. I have been told for several months there has


been concern about meetings between the most senior loyalist commanders,


many of them based here on the Shankill, they have been meeting,


not because of stones being thrown at Protestant testant homes, but


because of on going violence by ex- IRA dissidents, many of them based


here on the republican side, who don't support the peace process.


Based in the Catholic Falls Road, Sinn Fein has led the republican


community into Government with unionists. But some of their former


supporters are feeling increasingly short changed. More than 30


republicans are held at this jail, separated from ordinary prisoners,


they are engaged in had a bitter dispute over their conditions. One


of them, Colin ska Duffy, awaiting trial for murder of two offduty


police officers, is one of those on dirty protests. We would want


everybody to come out and support these prisoners, you don't have to


support the arms struggle to support what is going on in here.


They are not treated humanely. are humiliated, every time on a


visit, they are constantly submitted to strip-searches.


Prison Service says it is honouring an agreement to end the dispute,


the relatives don't agree and say their campaign is gaining support


among the wider republican community. It is a an emotive issue,


the prisoners, it always has been. It has been highk jaed before for


political gain. Family and friends there are people in the family and


friends group would be affiliated to political organisation, but they


will not try to capitalise on this at all politically. Are you saying


they could? What cause violence on the streets? Exploit the situation.


We could use the situation, the situation could be used as a way of


gathering support for republicanism, never mind prisoner, getting the


momentum going, that is not what this group is about, we don't want


to use the situation, we want to resolve it. We are there to support


the prisoners, to highlight what is going on within the jail, that is


our only remit. The dispute is bringing the different republican


factions together inside the prison. One of them has just been released


on bail. They are unified in the position that is they want help


with. They are now, in effect, unified in the way they are dealing


with it. What happens and transpires on the outside I suppose


is again for a matter for people's representative ones the outside.


Republican society the core base are steadfastly behind the


prisoners, it can do no harm. year's marching season, always a


time of division, has been more tense than ever. These were


Catholic youths rioting last night in west Belfast. 22 police officers


were injured. High in the hole wod hills, overlooking east Belfast -


Hollywood Hills, overlooking east Belfast, another world, the club of


Rory McIlroy, the golfing superstar, is still basking in his US Open


triumph. The junior membership is full, who cares it is pouring with


rain. I think when he won it showed what Northern Ireland could produce,


and not just producing fighting and rioting. Here everyone is peaceful


and nice, having friendly conversations with everyone around,


it just doesn't seem like that's happening. But we all know it is,


we just hope it gets better. This gin win upset here that the agonies


on the streets below are overshadowing a more progressive


Northern Ireland. As the street violence reminds us, this year more


forcefully than before, the peace process is leaving some people


behind. I just want to show you one front


page tomorrow, it is the Sun, which entirely rebuffs Gordon Brown's


allegation that they got into some how the Paper got into his son's


paper - medical records. They say they got it from another source. It


is 100 years today since the planet Neptune was discovered, that is one


Neptune year. We were going to end with pictures of the blue planet,


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