12/07/2011 Newsnight


12/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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The phone hacking scandal appears to have sunk Murdoch mur's attempt

:00:11.:00:13.

to takeover BSkyB television. The man who once had politicians dance

:00:14.:00:18.

to his tune, now finds them united in opposition. Even the leadership

:00:18.:00:22.

of his own News Corp is now in question. As politicians of all

:00:22.:00:29.

parties turn on the family and its Lieutenant, are the Murdochs facing

:00:29.:00:33.

both internal revolt and external. News International was involved in

:00:33.:00:36.

hiring people to get this information. The people they work

:00:36.:00:41.

with are criminals, known criminal, criminals with records. Senior

:00:41.:00:47.

police officers too feel the heat. Did you receive payment from any

:00:47.:00:50.

news organisation? Gooden, absolutely not, I can't believe you

:00:50.:00:53.

suggested that. We're joined by a former Conservative Party chairman

:00:53.:00:58.

a former newspaper editor, and you know who.

:00:58.:01:03.

Also tonight, the slow motion car crash of the eurozone debt crisis,

:01:03.:01:05.

can Europe's gathered finance ministers wriggle out of the latest

:01:05.:01:09.

mess. In Northern Ireland, why is there rioting in a society now

:01:09.:01:19.
:01:19.:01:24.

The phone hacking scandal is like a match dropped into a box of

:01:24.:01:28.

firework, no-one knows what is going to explode next. Today the

:01:28.:01:33.

former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, accused another News International

:01:33.:01:37.

title, the Sunday Times, of using known criminals to invade his

:01:37.:01:40.

privacy. Policemen did their best to explain why their investigation

:01:40.:01:43.

had been so useless. Tonight the leaders of the three main parties

:01:43.:01:48.

have been holding talk about what sort of inquiry should be held. We

:01:48.:01:52.

have the latest. What has been happening tonight? David Cameron

:01:52.:01:55.

has been talking to Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg and also to Paul

:01:55.:02:00.

Stevenson, the Metropolitan Police commissioner. They are pretty close,

:02:00.:02:06.

the parties, to agreement, on the inquiry. I say inquiry, because it

:02:06.:02:09.

now looks like there aren't going to be two inquiries, but

:02:09.:02:12.

effectively there will be one. This will be announced in a statement to

:02:12.:02:17.

be given by the Prime Minister to the Commons after Prime Minister's

:02:17.:02:21.

Questions tomorrow. Initially David Cameron was talking about a

:02:21.:02:24.

judicial-led inquiry to look into the News of the World case what

:02:24.:02:29.

specifically went on there, and a second non-judicial inquiry into

:02:29.:02:33.

media practices and ethics. Now effectively it looks like the media

:02:33.:02:37.

practice and ethics part of it will be a sub-committee of the judicial

:02:37.:02:40.

inquiry. It is quite likely tomorrow that we will hear which

:02:40.:02:46.

judge has been appointed to do the job. Equally important, it looks

:02:46.:02:49.

like Labour and the Liberal Democrats have persuaded David

:02:49.:02:55.

Cameron to widen the terms of this inquiry, the judicial inquiry, so

:02:55.:03:00.

that it will be looking into not just what went on in the news news,

:03:00.:03:04.

but relations between the press and the police in general, and also

:03:04.:03:09.

relations between politicians and the press in general. L as I

:03:09.:03:13.

understand it, it is intended - also, as I understand it, it will

:03:13.:03:17.

mean politicians and newspaper editors will have to come along and

:03:17.:03:20.

give testimony under oath. This means that parliamentary debate

:03:20.:03:25.

tomorrow will be something of a damp squib, isn't it? Well, it is n

:03:25.:03:29.

way. Because the parties have agreed that they will support

:03:29.:03:32.

Labour's opposition motion, which is that this House believes it is

:03:32.:03:35.

in the public interest for Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation to

:03:35.:03:38.

withdraw their bid for BSkyB. The Liberal Democrats announced they

:03:38.:03:43.

can go along with that, and so too has the Government now. There is

:03:44.:03:47.

some question as to whether there will actually be a vote tomorrow.

:03:47.:03:55.

If nobody opposed that, then the Speaker asks for aclammation, and

:03:55.:04:00.

if nobody - acclaimation and if nobody says anything then it is

:04:00.:04:05.

passed. It would be a good idea to have a formal vote, so you not only

:04:05.:04:12.

have a list of name there is, but also if the vote was 528-2, that

:04:12.:04:18.

would be a more powerful message to News Corporation, than simply by

:04:18.:04:20.

acclaimation. It would be interesting to know who the two

:04:20.:04:24.

were. What about Gordon Brown's intervention today, this was quite

:04:24.:04:29.

new, wasn't it? Yes, we heard last night about a number of activities

:04:29.:04:32.

that other newspapers, beyond News of the World, the Sun and the

:04:32.:04:38.

Sunday Times h allegedly been doing in relation - had allegedly been

:04:38.:04:41.

doing in relation to Gordon Brown in particular. The story the Sun

:04:41.:04:47.

broke about his son Fraser having cystic fibrosis, which they broke a

:04:47.:04:50.

few months after his son Fraser was born. This is Gordon Brown's

:04:50.:04:54.

reaction in an interview by the BBC. REPORTER: How did that affect you

:04:54.:05:04.
:05:04.:05:05.

as a father? In tears. Your son is now going to be broadcast across

:05:05.:05:09.

the media. Sarah and I incredibly upset about it, we are thinking

:05:09.:05:12.

about his long-term future, we are thinking about our family, but

:05:12.:05:19.

there is nothing you can do about it. I find it quite incredible that

:05:19.:05:24.

supposedly reputable organisations made their money, produced its

:05:25.:05:28.

commercial results at the expense of ordinary people, by using known

:05:28.:05:32.

criminals, that is now what has to be investigated. With us now is the

:05:32.:05:38.

spokesman for the Hacked Off campaign, Hugh Grant, executive

:05:38.:05:44.

editor of the Times and Lord Fowler who used to head the communications

:05:44.:05:46.

committee. Your organisation is seeing David Cameron tomorrow, what

:05:46.:05:51.

are you asking him for? We were worried, given that it was only two

:05:52.:05:57.

or three weeks ago that David Cameron was sipping Pimm's on

:05:57.:06:02.

Rupert Murdoch's lawn, we were worried in case we can really trust

:06:02.:06:07.

him to have done a permanent turn about in the way he seems to have

:06:07.:06:09.

done. We were worried particularly given the Culture Secretary's

:06:09.:06:14.

statement in the House the other day, on the proposed terms of the

:06:14.:06:19.

inquiry, that it looked a bit feeble. It looked like maybe

:06:19.:06:23.

Cameron's choice was to sort of slightly push the whole thing into

:06:23.:06:28.

the long grass and not do a proper inquiry. The Hacked Off group,

:06:28.:06:32.

which includes lawyers and journalists and so on created a set

:06:32.:06:37.

of terms that we thought the inquiry should include, they are

:06:37.:06:41.

published in the Guardian tomorrow and they are on-line now. We have

:06:41.:06:44.

been going around asking the leader of the opposition and Nick Clegg.

:06:44.:06:47.

They are on board. The next stop is Cameron. It sounds from what we

:06:47.:06:52.

heard just now he's on board now. The meet something rather

:06:52.:06:55.

unnecessary? It is rather unnecessary me being here if that

:06:55.:07:02.

is true. You guys want, the inquiry under a judge? One. And you say

:07:02.:07:06.

that should happen at the same time as any police inquiry? Because we

:07:06.:07:13.

only heard today from Aikers this could take years an inquiry.

:07:13.:07:16.

judge could require them to take evidence under oath and they would

:07:16.:07:20.

be required to incriminate themselves? We are told by top

:07:20.:07:23.

lawyers you can circumnavigate that if you are a decent judge and you

:07:24.:07:28.

can get the inquiry going on under all kinds of basis before calling

:07:28.:07:33.

in people who might or might not incriminate themselves. What about

:07:33.:07:38.

this inquiry? I think it would be good to look at the way newspapers

:07:39.:07:42.

have operated, obviously things have gone on that are wrong, a lot

:07:42.:07:46.

of people have been punished and a newspaper has been closed, which is

:07:46.:07:50.

a great sadness in my view. Some of the mud is sticking to the

:07:50.:07:54.

reputation of the British press and British journalists and journalism,

:07:54.:07:59.

which I think is the best in the world, it is fierce and robust.

:07:59.:08:03.

Clearly there is an inquiry, it has been set up, I fear for the future

:08:03.:08:07.

of regulation, I fear we will move into a much more state-controlled

:08:07.:08:10.

organisation looking at the press. I think this will be bad for the

:08:10.:08:14.

freedom of the press and for journalism. Why are you shaking

:08:14.:08:19.

your head? I just think that's rubbish that last part. I have been

:08:19.:08:24.

pressing for an inquiry into this since February. I'm delighted that

:08:24.:08:29.

we are having one. I think there are a whole range of areas you can

:08:29.:08:32.

go into, without in any way interfering with the criminal

:08:32.:08:35.

process. The Press Complaints Commission, to say, you don't

:08:35.:08:37.

necessarily have to have a statutory commission, but I think

:08:37.:08:41.

no-one would argue, I think, for a moment, that the Press Complaints

:08:41.:08:45.

Commission come out of this smelling of roses. They haven't

:08:45.:08:50.

been able to actually. I would, I was on it for a long time. I'm not

:08:50.:08:55.

sure that is the best defence if you don't mind me saying so

:08:55.:08:58.

personally! It hasn't exposed what has taken place there. Now, that

:08:58.:09:01.

may be because it didn't have the power, or maybe it didn't have the

:09:01.:09:05.

will, but we need to actually have a look at those sorts of things.

:09:05.:09:09.

That can take place without interfering in any way. Plus we

:09:09.:09:14.

could start to look at one of the things, we were so keen at Hacked

:09:14.:09:19.

Off was within the remit of the inquiry, which is the politicians'

:09:19.:09:28.

relationship with the media. Which has started to look very smelly to

:09:28.:09:33.

the public. How frightened are politicians of News International.

:09:33.:09:38.

You will never get an answer to that in an inairy. Somebody will

:09:38.:09:43.

say they were scared of - an inquiry, somebody will say they

:09:43.:09:51.

were scared. And was there any nobbling of a politician, to what

:09:51.:09:55.

extent. Why otherwise were both main parties utterly cosied up to

:09:55.:10:02.

Murdoch for so long if there wasn't an element of fear? They weren't

:10:02.:10:05.

utterly cosied up, political leaders talk to major businessmen,

:10:05.:10:10.

there is nothing wrong with that at all. I think Hugh Grant is right, I

:10:10.:10:14.

was chairman of a political party, I do know this, although I have to

:10:14.:10:18.

say under John Major we weren't very successful in cosying up to

:10:18.:10:22.

anyone. Were you ever scared? what? Of being expoded by a

:10:23.:10:27.

newspaper for something, did you ever - exposed by a newspaper for

:10:27.:10:30.

something, did you ever feel beholden to a newspaper? No, I'm

:10:30.:10:34.

not very good at this. This looks like the political class trying to

:10:34.:10:39.

get a bit of revengs for the whole stuff over MPs' expenses and

:10:39.:10:44.

bringing the press to heel so they don't ask awkward inquiries? That

:10:44.:10:49.

is not my view. I think the healthy thing that should come out of all

:10:49.:10:53.

this, Roger might agree with this, is you get some clear water between

:10:53.:11:00.

the political parties on one side and the media on the other. What

:11:00.:11:05.

has gone wrong with this relationship is this cosying up

:11:05.:11:09.

with the relationship. Tony Blair going over to Australia to speak to

:11:09.:11:15.

executives of News International, you don't get that in ordinary

:11:15.:11:21.

relationships. And the Christmas dinners with Rebekah Wade. Why

:11:21.:11:26.

aren't they on the record? That was a private dinner, why shouldn't

:11:26.:11:31.

people have a private dinner. stinks. He can have dinner what

:11:31.:11:36.

with whoever he likes? Not if it is major corporation trying to take

:11:36.:11:39.

over our biggest satellite broadcaster t stinks to high heaven,

:11:39.:11:42.

with a huge criminal suspicion hanging over it, because the phone

:11:42.:11:46.

hacking thing has been around for a long time. Would he have had dinner

:11:46.:11:54.

with the chairman of BP if they criminal stuff hanging over them.

:11:54.:11:59.

That sort of thing won't happen in future. What you will find is

:11:59.:12:02.

political leaders and politicians generally will be very cautious

:12:02.:12:06.

indeed, I hope in the same way that the media will also be very

:12:06.:12:10.

cautious. If we can have a new start, as far as all that is

:12:10.:12:14.

concerned, I think it is in everyone's interest. I think that

:12:14.:12:19.

will happen. I think the natural position for journalists as an

:12:19.:12:24.

outsider, you are observing, you're citising, and analysing and trying

:12:24.:12:28.

- criticising and analysing and trying to find out what is going

:12:28.:12:32.

wrong, you can't get too close. you have got too close. I remember

:12:32.:12:37.

in the Sun in the 1992 election, it was the Sun that won it. It was

:12:37.:12:41.

complete rubbish. Can I just say one tiny thing about, that the Sun

:12:41.:12:45.

headline about the last one in turn the lights out. That wasn't telling

:12:45.:12:48.

people to not vote for Neil Kinnock, it was recognised and if people

:12:49.:12:52.

voted for Neil Kinnock they would be bonkers, and nobody did vote for

:12:52.:12:57.

him. If I was Neil Kinnock I might not take that rosy view. The press

:12:57.:13:01.

follow and adapt and adjust, they don't govern people. I think

:13:01.:13:06.

politicians have faken it far too much that it is the press that can

:13:06.:13:10.

actually influence the outcome of elections. Is this just about the

:13:10.:13:15.

murd mur press or is it wider than that? - Murdoch press or is it

:13:15.:13:19.

wider? It is wider, we all know, that we will gradually learn how

:13:19.:13:24.

much wider it was. Hopefully under this inquiry. Good investigative

:13:24.:13:28.

journalism such as the Guardian and the Independent have done brilliant,

:13:28.:13:33.

more and more will come out. I think there will be civil cases

:13:33.:13:38.

coming out, I speak from very close experience.

:13:38.:13:44.

I think the extraordinary thing in one way, is it has suddenly come

:13:44.:13:47.

out now. If you go back to 2006, you had the Information

:13:48.:13:52.

Commissioner putting much of this evidence into the public domain

:13:52.:13:57.

then, and absolutely nothing was done about it. That wasn't about

:13:57.:14:01.

phone hacking but breaches of the data act. It was about bribing.

:14:01.:14:04.

was the whole culture, you have private detective, you have the

:14:04.:14:09.

press, you have all the issues which are coming up in phone

:14:09.:14:14.

hacking, what was done then? Nothing. Did parts of the press

:14:14.:14:18.

take that as a green light for going on and doing things, I think

:14:18.:14:21.

they probably did. I think unquestionable parts of the press

:14:21.:14:24.

used private investigators far too much, and they became lazy and

:14:24.:14:30.

didn't find it out for themselves, it has come to an end. It is more

:14:30.:14:35.

than lazy it is illegal. Only the other day the Sun published my

:14:35.:14:39.

medical records, when I tried to sue them, you tried to do it with

:14:39.:14:44.

good humour, I say let's not go to a big legal cautious give me �5,000

:14:44.:14:48.

for a charity. They thought they were entirely within my rights to

:14:48.:14:51.

steal my medical rights and put them in their paper. When people

:14:51.:14:57.

say it is a thing of the past, it is bollocks. Nobody would condone

:14:57.:15:02.

that, it is truly bad behaviour and these things will start to fade and

:15:02.:15:07.

go. The big campaigns of the past, you take Harry Evan, Sunday Times,

:15:07.:15:11.

thalidomide. We have just had a huge campaign of trying to change

:15:11.:15:15.

the nature of abortion, adoption, I apologise. With respect, I don't

:15:15.:15:19.

think it is quite the same. We have led the campaign against the

:15:19.:15:23.

stoning of the women in Iraq. is one thing, what you are not

:15:23.:15:26.

doing is you are not investigating in the way the Sunday Times, in

:15:27.:15:29.

those days, investigated thalidomide, my point is that they

:15:29.:15:34.

never did this with phone hacking, they did it by patient digging, and

:15:34.:15:39.

that you could say the same about what happened in Washington as well.

:15:39.:15:43.

That's where the whole thing has changed. The press have used short

:15:43.:15:47.

cuts and illegal short cuts and not actually to do things of public

:15:47.:15:54.

interest. To find out who Ryan Giggs is having sex with, who cares.

:15:54.:15:58.

Ifrpblgt say you found out about arms smuggling or a child sex

:15:58.:16:04.

racket, would that be OK, what about the WikiLeaks, that is stolen

:16:04.:16:09.

document. The end, does that become a legitimising thing. I'm asking,

:16:09.:16:13.

we are in an unknown world there. It is not that unknown, if it is

:16:13.:16:16.

illegal it is illegal, it is against the law. What is the public

:16:16.:16:20.

interest? The public interest is that the law should be upheld, if

:16:20.:16:23.

the press can't see that then I mean, frankly, it shouldn't just be

:16:23.:16:29.

the News of the World. There was a public interest in expenses and

:16:29.:16:32.

this was questionably highly legal at times? I don't think there have

:16:32.:16:37.

been any prosecution ones that one, we have all agreed, I think, and I

:16:37.:16:40.

don't disagree there are lines, difficult lines, what isn't

:16:40.:16:44.

difficult is to actually condemn phone hacking and condemn the sort

:16:44.:16:47.

of thing that happened to Hugh Grant and a whole range of other

:16:47.:16:51.

people. Thank you all very much. Quite apart from what happens to Mr

:16:51.:16:54.

Murdoch's plans, there is the minor matter of how to salvage what's

:16:54.:16:58.

left of the reputation of the Metropolitan Police. Senior

:16:58.:17:01.

officers were called before House of Commons select committee today

:17:01.:17:05.

to explain how they had so comprehensively failed to carry

:17:05.:17:08.

through a proper investigation into apparent evidence that nearly 4,000

:17:08.:17:13.

people were hacked. The word "unimpressed" doesn't quite catch

:17:13.:17:16.

the measure of the MPs' disbelief. We have spent the day watching the

:17:16.:17:22.

detectives. They had bags of evidence,

:17:22.:17:26.

literally, bin bag, brimming with names and dates. It is just that

:17:26.:17:33.

no-one seemed to have much of what to do with it. The Met's finest

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:43.

hour, it certainly wasn't it? sounds like Cluso, rather than

:17:43.:17:47.

Columbo. Why did this investigation go so badly wrong? It was only

:17:47.:17:50.

triggered in the first place because of fears, founded fears, as

:17:50.:17:56.

it turned out b royal phones being hacked. It was led, therefore, by

:17:56.:18:00.

anti-terror police. Frankly, they weren't interested in lesser

:18:00.:18:04.

victims, nor were they interested in cleaning up dodgy press

:18:04.:18:07.

practices. Another reason we learned today was about News

:18:07.:18:12.

International, they had, according to detective, willfully obstructed

:18:12.:18:16.

the investigation and lied to police. If at any time News

:18:16.:18:19.

International had offered some meaningful co-operation instead of

:18:19.:18:26.

prevarcation and what we now know to be lies, we would not be here

:18:26.:18:28.

today. Former Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Peter Clarke, was in

:18:28.:18:31.

charge of the day-to-day running of the original investigation? I know

:18:31.:18:36.

it sounds a slightly banal point, that would you expect criminals to

:18:36.:18:40.

co-operate with the police, of course you don't, this is slight

:18:40.:18:43.

low different, I don't mean to be flipant here from someone taking

:18:43.:18:47.

the lead off the church roof, this is a global organisation with

:18:47.:18:52.

access to the best legal advice n my view deliberately trying to

:18:52.:18:55.

thwart a criminal investigation. Was there, MPs wanted to know a

:18:55.:19:00.

more sinister reason the investigation failed. Former

:19:00.:19:03.

Assistant Commissioner, David Haye was in overall charge at the time.

:19:03.:19:08.

During the investigation he was a dinner guest of...News

:19:08.:19:13.

International. You have made a judgment call to accept hospitality,

:19:13.:19:16.

from people who you are investigating for criminal offences,

:19:16.:19:21.

that is correct isn't it Yeah. why didn't he decide, you know, not

:19:21.:19:26.

to go to dinner? Not to have that dinner, I think, would have been

:19:26.:19:33.

potentially more suspicious than to have it. Suspicious? Well, I don't

:19:33.:19:39.

know why you're laughing...Just months after retiring as a

:19:39.:19:46.

policeman, Mr Hayman went to work for...News International? How vu

:19:46.:19:52.

any idea how this looks to the public.

:19:53.:20:00.

(inaudible) I take that on the chin. The atmosphere quickly went from

:20:00.:20:04.

incredulity to hostility. Did you ever receive payment from any news

:20:04.:20:07.

organisation? Gooden, absolutely not, I can't believe you suggested

:20:07.:20:12.

that. Lots of people did. Come on, hang on, I'm not letting you get

:20:12.:20:18.

away with that. At the conclusion of the first

:20:18.:20:22.

investigation, the News of the World's Academie Royale des Beaux-

:20:22.:20:26.

Arts editor, Clive Goodman, and the private investigator, Paul McMullan,

:20:26.:20:36.
:20:36.:20:41.

pleaded guilty and were jailed. Everyone knew phone hacking went

:20:41.:20:45.

further than royalty, people in sport, entertainment and politics,

:20:46.:20:50.

the police had 11,000 pages of Paul McMullan's notebook, containing

:20:50.:20:55.

thousands of names. When more allegations of the scale of phone

:20:55.:21:01.

hacking came to light in 2009, the Met Commissioner ordered John Yates

:21:01.:21:05.

to look into. It he spent a few hours looking into it, concluding

:21:05.:21:14.

everything was fine. I consider no further investigation is required

:21:14.:21:22.

after further looking into it. Yates, still a senior serving Met

:21:22.:21:26.

officer admitted he got this one wrong. Had I known in July 2009

:21:26.:21:32.

what I now know, I would have made different decisions. I express

:21:32.:21:35.

clearly and publicly my impact on those affected as a result. Time

:21:35.:21:39.

and time again the committee wanted to know why, when Assistant

:21:39.:21:44.

Commissioner Yates said he looked at the evidence, didn't he actually

:21:44.:21:47.

look at the evidence? At the end of the session the chairman gave the

:21:47.:21:51.

officer this rebuke. I think your evidence today is unconvincing and

:21:51.:21:55.

there are more questions to be asked about what happened when you

:21:55.:22:02.

conducted this review. The final witness today was Deputy

:22:02.:22:07.

Assistant Commissioner sue Akers, she is now leading the

:22:08.:22:13.

investigation into all that evidence. She has confirmed there

:22:13.:22:18.

are 3,800 potential victims, she told the committee she intends to

:22:18.:22:21.

get answers. I'm confident we have an excellent team, who are working

:22:21.:22:27.

tirelessly to get this right. I hope that I don't have to come back

:22:27.:22:31.

here in five years time to explain why we have failed. That is a

:22:31.:22:38.

potential date to pencil in, by July 2016, we might just have got

:22:38.:22:45.

to the bottom of all of this. I'm joined now by Peter Neru, who

:22:45.:22:49.

was, until last year, the head of the national police improvement

:22:49.:22:52.

agency and before that spent four years as Chief Constable of Thames

:22:52.:22:55.

Valley Police. What was the worst moment in the testimony for you

:22:55.:23:02.

today? I think the worst moment was the incoherence of the decisions in

:23:02.:23:07.

the early stages. Let's take Andy Hayman, a very senior police

:23:07.:23:10.

officer, did you know he wanted to be a journalist? It was news to me.

:23:10.:23:15.

Were you impressed by his testimony? Not wholly. I think the

:23:15.:23:19.

big problem that came out there for Andy Hayman was the public

:23:19.:23:22.

perception around the job he had moved into, so shortly after

:23:23.:23:27.

leaving the force. What is the feeling within the force about how

:23:28.:23:30.

he behaved? I think there is a general feeling about colleagues

:23:30.:23:35.

who go and then decide to comment on colleagues, without objectivity.

:23:35.:23:39.

He suffers from that, I think. about the various excuse that is

:23:39.:23:44.

were given for the fact that 11,000 pages of evidence were not examined.

:23:44.:23:47.

While I can understand the argument about priorities, but the claim,

:23:47.:23:52.

for example, from Mr Yates, that it would have taken five or six

:23:52.:23:55.

officers, four or five months to go through it, is that plausible?

:23:55.:23:59.

feels a little bit long. How long would it have taken you? Go back

:23:59.:24:03.

into the evidence there were some important points made by Lord Blair

:24:03.:24:08.

at the beginning, and then by Peter Clarke, which was the coincidence

:24:08.:24:11.

of other events. I ran a large force, but nothing like the

:24:11.:24:14.

pressure of the type of events that they were dealing with. We all

:24:15.:24:19.

understand that the London bombings took priority over absolutely

:24:19.:24:22.

everything. But the allegation that it would take five or six officers

:24:22.:24:27.

four or five months, or four or five officers five or six months s

:24:27.:24:32.

that plausible? That feels a bit excessive. I would have spent

:24:32.:24:36.

someone to form a careful triage, it wouldn't have taken that long to

:24:36.:24:40.

work out the quantum you have. do we make of the suggestion that

:24:40.:24:45.

senior officers of him don't do binbags s there a level in the

:24:45.:24:49.

force where you don't investigate any more? I dealt with the

:24:49.:24:53.

investigation into the investigation of the death of Dr

:24:53.:24:56.

David Kelly, I didn't read all the material, but I satisfied myself on

:24:56.:25:01.

all the lines of inquiry. It is the line between there. You can't do it

:25:01.:25:05.

all, you are overseeing the whole of the inquiry. I do have some

:25:05.:25:10.

sympathy with that approach. wouldn't take long to skim and say

:25:10.:25:13.

this is worth investigating? would have expected a good summary

:25:14.:25:20.

of what was there. It took about eight hours is that long enough?

:25:20.:25:24.

it is 1,000 pages that feels short. I would have expected a good

:25:24.:25:27.

summary. What has this done to public confidence in the police?

:25:28.:25:32.

Not a lot. I think if you follow it through, and I can see the way that

:25:32.:25:35.

the evidence was set out f you follow it through on the basis of

:25:35.:25:39.

it was busy when they did it, they were focused on doing the royalty

:25:39.:25:44.

issues, the ones that were really staring them in the face, I'm

:25:44.:25:48.

troubled there wasn't a fresh attempt to look back at it. People

:25:48.:25:55.

were failed, there are 3,800 people whose phones were hacked, and most

:25:55.:25:59.

of them haven't the faintist idea, their numbers were there? The Met

:25:59.:26:04.

are admitting they dropped the ball. There was failure, conspicuous

:26:04.:26:07.

failure here? I wouldn't have been happy with that investigation,

:26:07.:26:13.

personally, no. Do you think people should be sacked for it? That's

:26:13.:26:21.

where I have trouble with what's going on with Labour MPs calling

:26:21.:26:27.

for John Yates to resign without a proper inquiry being conduct. That

:26:27.:26:31.

is premature, and I think John felt that was unfair at this stage. Not

:26:31.:26:34.

least of which he was one of a number of people with oversight of

:26:34.:26:43.

it, and he is a superb investigator. It was only months that the press

:26:43.:26:47.

was laweding him for the investigation into the payments for

:26:47.:26:50.

honours, that was a difficult political investigation.

:26:50.:26:54.

Tomorrow we will be having an invited audience live in the studio

:26:54.:26:58.

to see how the scandal has changed the way the rest of the country now

:26:58.:27:02.

sees the British press. We had to stop dithering, you can have

:27:02.:27:05.

blackouts or investment, which do you want, was the Energy

:27:05.:27:10.

Secretary's pitch today as he set out his plans for the electricity

:27:10.:27:14.

market. As anyone who has had to pay for an electricity bill

:27:14.:27:19.

recently, the cost is spiralling. If you were hoping for comfort,

:27:19.:27:24.

forget it, the Government's policy is for it to cost more. Demand will

:27:24.:27:29.

carry on rising, and the lights will start going out. More money

:27:29.:27:32.

for nuclear and carbon capture and renewable energy, which in turn

:27:32.:27:38.

means higher bills. The estimate is that we need �200

:27:38.:27:43.

billion more investment by 2020 for new renewable energy, power

:27:43.:27:47.

stations, including new nuclear power stations, and an updated grid.

:27:48.:27:51.

But for consumers it will mean higher bills, potentially hundreds

:27:51.:27:55.

of pounds a year higher. The Government says the increase in

:27:55.:28:01.

average bills will be limited to �160 a year by 2030, but that is on

:28:01.:28:06.

top of the rises that are already happening. Only last week the UK's

:28:06.:28:12.

biggest energy company, Centrica, put up its gas prices by 18% and

:28:12.:28:17.

its electricity prices by 16%. Scottish Power has also announced

:28:17.:28:24.

price increases of 19% for gas, and 10% for electricity. With us now is

:28:24.:28:29.

the Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne, don't you think people are paying

:28:29.:28:33.

enough for electricity? Yes I do. Why are we paying more? We don't

:28:33.:28:38.

want to pay more. The key thing is to insure ourselves against the

:28:38.:28:40.

volitility that we have seen on international oil and gas markets.

:28:40.:28:45.

We have Libya, we have a big 30% increase in world gas prices, that

:28:45.:28:50.

is what is hitting us. They will pay more, as a consequence of your

:28:50.:28:58.

policy they will pay more? No. will not? Ifth depends on if we go

:28:58.:29:03.

on reliant on gas markets, we will be buffeted. If we go own to low

:29:03.:29:08.

carbon sources, like renewables and nuclear, we will have much less

:29:08.:29:12.

impact on the domestic economy and prices. It is an insurance policy.

:29:12.:29:16.

People will pay more than they are now? It is inevitable, if we have

:29:16.:29:21.

more investment, we have to have replace a quarter of our capacity,

:29:21.:29:29.

tes inevitable to pay more. have just referred to nuclear. Your

:29:29.:29:34.

manifesto said last year you would reject new nuclear power station,

:29:34.:29:39.

saying it is a far more expensive way of producing power than

:29:39.:29:43.

promoting green energy? We are doing, by the way, conservation of

:29:43.:29:47.

energy, we are doing a lot of energy saving, it is a key part of

:29:47.:29:52.

the energy bill. But you are not reject Agnew generation of nuclear

:29:52.:29:58.

power station, you were - rejecting a new generation of nuclear power

:29:58.:30:02.

stations? We accepted it as a compromise. It is like tuition fee,

:30:02.:30:07.

you say one thing and do something else? We had to reach agreement on

:30:07.:30:11.

these issues to make sure we have a proper energy policy to get it into

:30:11.:30:15.

place. Is there anything in your next manifesto we should believe,

:30:15.:30:21.

on nuclear power you stood on your head and tu accident fees? The four

:30:21.:30:27.

- - and student fees? The four key things on our manifesto we stand on.

:30:27.:30:31.

Kindly tell us which ones to believe next time? You have to work

:30:31.:30:37.

out what will be the other party and what they will say. In tax

:30:37.:30:41.

fairness we have taken 1.1 million people out of tax in our manifesto.

:30:41.:30:45.

That was a key priority. Pupil premium that was a key priority for

:30:45.:30:49.

us. What you said before the election, it is extraordinary the

:30:49.:30:52.

leader, David Cameron, who wants to be Prime Minister, ememploys Andy

:30:52.:30:56.

Coulson. You were right there, weren't you? Well, the Prime

:30:57.:31:01.

Minister has clearly reached an accommodation on that issue, we

:31:01.:31:07.

know perfectly well what happened, Andy Coulson resigned. The News

:31:07.:31:11.

International inquiry continues and the police have started seriously

:31:11.:31:14.

inquiring into the activities. was bad judgment on the Prime

:31:14.:31:18.

Minister's part? It is up to the Prime Minister whom he employs as

:31:18.:31:23.

director of communications, it was clear what I said at the time.

:31:23.:31:27.

you support him? I warned Nick, it was clear at the time, Nick indeed

:31:27.:31:30.

warned the Prime Minister, it was very clear, as a result of that,

:31:30.:31:33.

this was a decision that the Prime Minister took on his own account.

:31:33.:31:37.

But you say that he was a man who was at best responsible for a

:31:37.:31:42.

newspaper that was out of control, and at worst was personally

:31:42.:31:45.

implicated in criminal activity. Do you admire the judgment of a leader

:31:45.:31:49.

who can make thater sort of decision to appoint someone like

:31:49.:31:53.

that? I think it is perfectly commendable to offer someone a

:31:53.:31:57.

second chance, but I standby the judgment I made about Andy Coulson,

:31:57.:32:01.

given what I knew at the time about what was going on at News

:32:01.:32:05.

International, and given what we have subsequently found out. Let's

:32:05.:32:08.

talk about Rupert Murdoch, do you think there is any role for him in

:32:08.:32:12.

the media in this country? There are increasing problems, the more

:32:12.:32:16.

we see with News International, the problems that were clearly there at

:32:16.:32:20.

the News of the World, seemed to be spreading to the Sun, maybe seen

:32:20.:32:23.

the Sunday Times, Gordon Brown's evidence today. The more this looks

:32:23.:32:27.

like an organisation that will be very hard to find a fit and proper

:32:27.:32:30.

organisation to be the major shareholder of a broadcasting

:32:30.:32:35.

organisation like BSkyB. You have had your own problems with the

:32:35.:32:41.

Sunday Times, you are a former journalist, do you not worry about

:32:41.:32:45.

the inhibition that will be placed upon proper free report anything

:32:45.:32:48.

this country if some of these restrictions get their way? There

:32:48.:32:52.

shouldn't be restrictions. We do need a clear means of increasing

:32:52.:32:56.

the standards of journalism, and of making sure there is a proper

:32:56.:32:59.

complaints procedure. That is what we don't have with the Press

:32:59.:33:02.

Complaints Commission. I think there is a long way to go. Making

:33:02.:33:06.

sure that people are held individually to account, making

:33:06.:33:09.

sure there is due prominence to corrections, making sure for

:33:09.:33:14.

example that newspapers have to pay fine, on a self-regulating basis,

:33:14.:33:18.

but I entirely agree, I don't think we should chill investigative

:33:18.:33:22.

efforts of newspapers, freedom of the press is absolutely essential.

:33:23.:33:26.

Guess what, there's another crisis or the makings of a crisis in the

:33:26.:33:30.

eurozone this time it is not one of the smaller economies like Greece

:33:30.:33:33.

or Ireland, although their bonds were downgrade today junk today. It

:33:33.:33:38.

is Italy, the third-biggest in the entire eurozone, the potential

:33:38.:33:43.

consequences if the Italians can't pay their enormous bills, are so

:33:43.:33:47.

serious, that today stock markets across Europe dropped for the third

:33:47.:33:53.

consecutive session. Our man with the cold eye is Paul Mason. What is

:33:53.:33:57.

up? Italy's problems started, because anything that looks like

:33:57.:34:03.

Greece, with Greece hovering on the point of default, gets investors

:34:03.:34:07.

worried. Italy is trying to put together an austerity package, some

:34:07.:34:13.

think it isn't that well designed, they are having it true to get it

:34:13.:34:16.

through. And Mr Beryl's Last Year chose this moment to ring up a

:34:16.:34:20.

national newspaper and say this about the Finance Minister, "you

:34:20.:34:25.

know he thinks he's a genius, and everyone else is stupid, I put up

:34:25.:34:30.

with him because I have known him so long ". To the bond markets this

:34:30.:34:38.

began to sound a little bit like Greece. Economists had thought it

:34:38.:34:44.

was Spain in the firing line next, when the Euro-took off in 2010 so,

:34:44.:34:48.

did Spain's borrowing, this is the graph showing what it cost Spain to

:34:48.:34:53.

borrow and Germany, Italy bubbled under, with Mr Berlussconi's

:34:53.:34:58.

intervention and continued indedecision in the eurozone, it

:34:58.:35:02.

has shot up close to Spanish levels, too high. That indecision continued

:35:02.:35:06.

today. Finance ministers from the eurozone broke up, yet again,

:35:06.:35:10.

without any concrete answers to the question, how much of Greece's debt

:35:10.:35:14.

should be written off, and who should lose money. By sitting on

:35:14.:35:18.

Greece and letting that fester, they have undermined investor

:35:18.:35:21.

confidence and it has seeped into other countries, particularly on

:35:21.:35:25.

the coast of Italy, Italy, if you like is the consequence of not

:35:25.:35:30.

dealing with Greece. Why should we worry about this? Italy's debt is

:35:30.:35:34.

120% of its GDP, the second-biggest debt in the eurozone. Unusually

:35:34.:35:40.

that is mainly owned by Italians, not the big foreign investor,

:35:40.:35:43.

Italian banks and people. It is the third biggest bond market in the

:35:43.:35:46.

world, after the Americans and Japanese, if it goes it goes big

:35:46.:35:50.

time. We can't bail it out. There is the politics. The Italian

:35:50.:35:54.

opposition told me today they are prepared, unlike Greece, to vote

:35:54.:35:59.

for the austerity, but their price will be national Government and

:35:59.:36:09.

goodbye to Berlussconi. As the opposition party we offered today

:36:09.:36:13.

to the majority the possibility to approve immediately, just in four

:36:13.:36:19.

days, the financial adjustment for 40 billion euros, the day after we

:36:19.:36:26.

say we want the resignation of the Government, and we want to have a

:36:26.:36:33.

new Government with a big majority, without Mr Berl sconey as leader.

:36:33.:36:38.

There are fresh reports of violence in Northern Ireland tonight. 20

:36:38.:36:43.

police officers were injured last night, as Protestant testants

:36:43.:36:50.

marched in celebration of King Billy's win at the Battle of the

:36:50.:36:55.

Boyne some 300 years ago. There is worries that there is a resurgence

:36:55.:36:59.

of paramilitary activity. Northern Ireland is at peace, what is going

:36:59.:37:08.

Everyone agrees they were the worst nights of rioting seen in Northern

:37:08.:37:15.

Ireland for many years. What caused this eruption of Protestant testant

:37:15.:37:20.

fury in east Belfast is hard Tory pin down.

:37:20.:37:24.

When it kicks off it is always the Catholics that start it, so it is.

:37:24.:37:29.

I don't know how it could be resolved, to be honest, there has

:37:29.:37:34.

been that much anger between Protestant testants and Catholics.

:37:34.:37:38.

(gun shots) The area that came under attack is a so-called

:37:38.:37:43.

interface, where long into the peace process, Catholic and

:37:43.:37:48.

Protestant testant homes still have to be separated by high walls. Just

:37:48.:37:53.

show me some of the photographs. On the loyalist side community workers

:37:53.:37:58.

use workers to assure me the violence came ol only after

:37:58.:38:06.

provocation from the Catholic Short Strand. Residents have collected in

:38:06.:38:10.

their gardens, bolts, rocks. They could hit you on the head. This all

:38:10.:38:14.

happened in the last few months? would say over the last six to

:38:14.:38:19.

seven months there has been a lot of attacks in the homes around the

:38:19.:38:23.

interface areas. But I'm told of another reason? There is so much

:38:23.:38:27.

hatred between the two communities, it is never going to end. Why not?

:38:27.:38:32.

It is just wait people are brought up. Retaliating, we will not stand

:38:33.:38:38.

and watch it. This youth took part in the riots, he wanted to remain

:38:38.:38:41.

anonymous? I don't know what happened, a lot of youngsters went

:38:41.:38:45.

down and helped out. That is what I call it, I call it helping out.

:38:45.:38:51.

What did you do to help out? Just throw a couple of missiles, bricks,

:38:52.:38:56.

bottles, anything you can get a hold of, throw them over. Does the

:38:56.:38:59.

peace process mean anything to you? I don't really understand all that

:38:59.:39:05.

peace process stuff, so I don't. It is not working, as you can see.

:39:05.:39:08.

These teenagers have a different outlook, at the even have Catholic

:39:08.:39:13.

friend, and yet they don't feel able to see them. I talk to them

:39:13.:39:17.

and stuff, I could text them, but I would never see them. It is just

:39:17.:39:21.

awkward, if someone sees you going down to the Strand or sees them

:39:21.:39:26.

coming out of the strand you will get done in. In what way? Like if

:39:26.:39:29.

somebody seen you walking down to the Strand and seeing you come out

:39:29.:39:33.

again, do you know what I mean, they will ask what are you doing

:39:33.:39:39.

going in there. They all feel progress is a long way off. I don't

:39:39.:39:42.

think anything will make a difference, to be honest, I think

:39:42.:39:46.

the problem has been there for that long it will always be there. Even

:39:46.:39:51.

if action was taken, I don't think it will make a difference.

:39:51.:39:55.

Jobs have become scarceer for the unionist working-classs that once

:39:55.:39:59.

manned the shipyards, there is a festering view that Catholics have

:39:59.:40:09.
:40:09.:40:10.

left their loyalist neighbours in their wake. If you have ailation

:40:10.:40:15.

and demonisation of one section of the community, it breeds bitterness

:40:15.:40:19.

and violence. People will not invest, and it will be used by

:40:19.:40:23.

unscrupulous people and manipulated by them. You are found to have

:40:23.:40:26.

violence arising in the toxic sectarian atmosphere which is

:40:27.:40:32.

Northern Ireland. And members of the biggest loyalist paramilitary

:40:32.:40:36.

group, the UVF, are aused of exploiting it. Throughout the years

:40:36.:40:41.

of the troubles, the murals reflected what was going on in the

:40:41.:40:45.

estates, where the paramilitaries were concentrated. During the years

:40:45.:40:50.

of peace they got more community minded. In east Belfast

:40:50.:40:53.

commemorating the Titanic, built just a few streets away. But take a

:40:53.:40:57.

look at this money, repainted just a few weeks ago. It didn't reflect

:40:57.:41:01.

anything, it foretold the trouble we have seen on the streets. And

:41:02.:41:06.

the message from loyalism seems to be what was said about the IRA once,

:41:06.:41:13.

they haven't gone away, you know. And they don't seem interested in

:41:13.:41:16.

politics. Brian Irvine failed to get elected as the loyalist

:41:16.:41:20.

representative in the May elections. The main leadership of the UVF wish

:41:20.:41:24.

to move on, they wish to leave the stage. But there are elements

:41:24.:41:29.

within the UVF, I believe do not wish to do so. They have their own

:41:29.:41:34.

agenda, and their own reasons for that. The intentions of the UVF mr

:41:34.:41:38.

deeply, at a time when the Government says the threat to the

:41:38.:41:42.

mainland from Northern Ireland terrorism has increased. Whether or

:41:42.:41:44.

not loyalist paramilitaries orchestrated the street violence, a

:41:44.:41:48.

lot of them were there. I have been told for several months there has

:41:48.:41:52.

been concern about meetings between the most senior loyalist commanders,

:41:52.:41:56.

many of them based here on the Shankill, they have been meeting,

:41:56.:41:59.

not because of stones being thrown at Protestant testant homes, but

:41:59.:42:06.

because of on going violence by ex- IRA dissidents, many of them based

:42:06.:42:13.

here on the republican side, who don't support the peace process.

:42:13.:42:17.

Based in the Catholic Falls Road, Sinn Fein has led the republican

:42:17.:42:20.

community into Government with unionists. But some of their former

:42:20.:42:26.

supporters are feeling increasingly short changed. More than 30

:42:26.:42:33.

republicans are held at this jail, separated from ordinary prisoners,

:42:33.:42:37.

they are engaged in had a bitter dispute over their conditions. One

:42:37.:42:45.

of them, Colin ska Duffy, awaiting trial for murder of two offduty

:42:45.:42:48.

police officers, is one of those on dirty protests. We would want

:42:48.:42:55.

everybody to come out and support these prisoners, you don't have to

:42:55.:42:59.

support the arms struggle to support what is going on in here.

:42:59.:43:06.

They are not treated humanely. are humiliated, every time on a

:43:06.:43:09.

visit, they are constantly submitted to strip-searches.

:43:09.:43:12.

Prison Service says it is honouring an agreement to end the dispute,

:43:13.:43:16.

the relatives don't agree and say their campaign is gaining support

:43:16.:43:22.

among the wider republican community. It is a an emotive issue,

:43:22.:43:27.

the prisoners, it always has been. It has been highk jaed before for

:43:27.:43:32.

political gain. Family and friends there are people in the family and

:43:32.:43:34.

friends group would be affiliated to political organisation, but they

:43:34.:43:40.

will not try to capitalise on this at all politically. Are you saying

:43:40.:43:44.

they could? What cause violence on the streets? Exploit the situation.

:43:44.:43:48.

We could use the situation, the situation could be used as a way of

:43:48.:43:54.

gathering support for republicanism, never mind prisoner, getting the

:43:54.:43:57.

momentum going, that is not what this group is about, we don't want

:43:57.:44:02.

to use the situation, we want to resolve it. We are there to support

:44:02.:44:05.

the prisoners, to highlight what is going on within the jail, that is

:44:05.:44:09.

our only remit. The dispute is bringing the different republican

:44:09.:44:14.

factions together inside the prison. One of them has just been released

:44:14.:44:18.

on bail. They are unified in the position that is they want help

:44:18.:44:23.

with. They are now, in effect, unified in the way they are dealing

:44:23.:44:27.

with it. What happens and transpires on the outside I suppose

:44:27.:44:32.

is again for a matter for people's representative ones the outside.

:44:32.:44:37.

Republican society the core base are steadfastly behind the

:44:37.:44:41.

prisoners, it can do no harm. year's marching season, always a

:44:41.:44:45.

time of division, has been more tense than ever. These were

:44:45.:44:49.

Catholic youths rioting last night in west Belfast. 22 police officers

:44:49.:44:59.
:44:59.:45:02.

were injured. High in the hole wod hills, overlooking east Belfast -

:45:02.:45:07.

Hollywood Hills, overlooking east Belfast, another world, the club of

:45:07.:45:12.

Rory McIlroy, the golfing superstar, is still basking in his US Open

:45:12.:45:16.

triumph. The junior membership is full, who cares it is pouring with

:45:16.:45:22.

rain. I think when he won it showed what Northern Ireland could produce,

:45:22.:45:27.

and not just producing fighting and rioting. Here everyone is peaceful

:45:27.:45:30.

and nice, having friendly conversations with everyone around,

:45:30.:45:33.

it just doesn't seem like that's happening. But we all know it is,

:45:33.:45:39.

we just hope it gets better. This gin win upset here that the agonies

:45:39.:45:43.

on the streets below are overshadowing a more progressive

:45:43.:45:48.

Northern Ireland. As the street violence reminds us, this year more

:45:48.:45:50.

forcefully than before, the peace process is leaving some people

:45:50.:45:55.

behind. I just want to show you one front

:45:55.:46:01.

page tomorrow, it is the Sun, which entirely rebuffs Gordon Brown's

:46:01.:46:11.
:46:11.:46:16.

allegation that they got into some how the Paper got into his son's

:46:16.:46:23.

paper - medical records. They say they got it from another source. It

:46:23.:46:29.

is 100 years today since the planet Neptune was discovered, that is one

:46:29.:46:33.

Neptune year. We were going to end with pictures of the blue planet,

:46:34.:46:39.

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