11/07/2011 Newsnight


11/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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It's like an entire immune system going into violent reaction.

:00:08.:00:14.

Suddenly the politicians who wanted him to smile upon them find Rupert

:00:14.:00:18.

Murdoch repellant. If I was running that company right now, with all of

:00:18.:00:22.

the problems and difficulties and the mess that there is, they should

:00:22.:00:25.

be focusing on clearing those up rather than on the next corporate

:00:25.:00:28.

move. The affliction spread, as other

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News International papers are accused of invading the privacy of

:00:31.:00:37.

Gordon Brown and his family. Newsnight has new details of how Mr

:00:37.:00:40.

Brown reacted when Rebekah Brooks broke the story of his son's

:00:40.:00:45.

illness. It has happened at the moment Mr

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Murdoch was poised to take an even bigger role in British life. Can

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his ambitions survive this deluge of opprobrium.

:00:58.:01:01.

Rumours this afternoon is to save the Sky deal, Murdoch might dump

:01:01.:01:06.

all of his UK newspapers. More accusation that is policemen

:01:06.:01:08.

were corrupted in exchange for informationment

:01:08.:01:11.

Also tonight, enough air conditioning to play football in

:01:11.:01:16.

the desert, how did a country with a smaller population than West

:01:16.:01:21.

Yorkshire persuade FIFA to let them stage the World Cup. The attack on

:01:21.:01:26.

2022 is because it fits the prejudice that people have in their

:01:26.:01:34.

mind, an Arab nation cannot have won.

:01:34.:01:38.

No-one, it seems, was safe from the attention of corrupt journalists.

:01:38.:01:43.

There were allegations today that they even tried to hack the phones

:01:43.:01:47.

of members of the Royal Family, and that reporters from the Sun and

:01:47.:01:51.

Sunday Times, blagged details of Gordon Brown's bank account and of

:01:51.:01:55.

his son's medical reports. David Cameron, meanwhile, stood by his

:01:55.:01:59.

decision to appoint the former editor of the News of the World,

:01:59.:02:03.

Andy Coulson, as his communications director. There is no sign of this

:02:03.:02:07.

scandal diminishing any time soon. First tonight, we have this

:02:07.:02:11.

reportment Today, the hacking story moved on.

:02:11.:02:15.

With new victim, Gordon Brown and his family. New charges, against

:02:15.:02:21.

more Murdoch newspapers. Both broadsheet and tabloid. And the

:02:21.:02:25.

exposure of more unethical methods by members of the press. The Brown

:02:25.:02:29.

revelations came from investigations by the BBC and the

:02:29.:02:32.

Guardian. The first relates to a flat Mr

:02:32.:02:37.

Brown bought in this block in Westminster, in 1992. Eight years

:02:37.:02:43.

later, the Sunday Times ran a story suggesting it was bought for a

:02:43.:02:47.

knock-down sum. The BBC has received a tape of a call to a firm

:02:47.:02:51.

of solicitors, which seems to suggest how the details were

:02:51.:03:01.
:03:01.:03:16.

The caller, beard beard beard, is known to have been working for the

:03:16.:03:21.

Sunday Times at that time. Another charge is also from 2000,

:03:21.:03:25.

that someone rang the Abbey National in Bradford six times, and

:03:25.:03:32.

got details of Mr Brown's account. The Ab by-election y wrote to him

:03:32.:03:35.

warning him somebody was pretending to be him, a letter was sent to the

:03:35.:03:41.

Sunday Times too, the Abbey never got firm proof that the paper was

:03:41.:03:49.

behind the calls. The worst charges are about Gordon Brown's son Fraser,

:03:49.:03:57.

born in 2006, the Brown's think that the front page story that he

:03:57.:04:01.

had cystic fibrosis, came from his medical records. These are serious

:04:01.:04:06.

allegations, indeed many Members of Parliament and like many members of

:04:06.:04:12.

the public I'm shocked and horrified that people could do this

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to Gordon and his family, it is extremely serious and needs to be

:04:15.:04:19.

looked at with urgency. Tonight Gordon Brown said his family were

:04:19.:04:23.

shocked by the scale of law breaking and intrusion into their

:04:23.:04:28.

private lives. He is expected to do an interview tomorrow.

:04:28.:04:34.

It all seemed to happen today in one extraordinary mad rush around

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4.00. Not long after those revelations about what may have

:04:37.:04:42.

happened to Gordon Brown and his family started trickling out over

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the Internet, came the extraordinary news from News

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Corporation, that they are withdrawing their undertakings

:04:49.:04:55.

about spinning off Sky News. That, only minutes before the Culture

:04:56.:05:00.

Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, was due to address MPs about the future of the

:05:00.:05:05.

News Corporation bid for Sky. Whilst at the same time, David

:05:05.:05:09.

Cameron was six miles away in Canary Wharf, fielding questions

:05:09.:05:15.

from journalists. The PM sent a clear warning to the

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Murdochs, don't think of taking over Sky until you have cleaned up

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your act. All I would say is this, if I was running that company right

:05:24.:05:27.

now, with all of the problems and the difficulties, and the mess,

:05:27.:05:31.

frankly, that there is, they should be focused on clearing those up

:05:31.:05:34.

rather than on the next corporate move. That is the view I would take

:05:34.:05:40.

if I was running that company. at the house it was Ed Miliband who

:05:40.:05:43.

wanted to grill Cameron about Sky, but the PM passed the issue to

:05:43.:05:49.

Jeremy Hunt. And now Hunt suddenly had to cope

:05:49.:05:55.

with the dramatic news from the Murdochs. I understand that in the

:05:55.:06:01.

last few minutes News Corporation have withdrawn their undertakings

:06:01.:06:08.

in news. On January 25th, John January 25th I said I was minded to

:06:08.:06:12.

refer News Corporation's proposed merging to buy BSkyB, to the

:06:12.:06:17.

Competition Commission, in the absence of any specific

:06:17.:06:21.

undertakings in lieu. As a result of News Corporation's announcement

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this afternoon, I will refer this to the Competition Commission, with

:06:26.:06:31.

immediate effect. And will be writing to them this afternoon.

:06:31.:06:35.

wasn't Cameron there to answer questions himself, Labour wanted to

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know? Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister was wrong not to come to

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the House of Commons today. As on every occasion during this crisis,

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he has failed to show the necessary leadership the country expects. He

:06:50.:06:56.

saw no need for a judicial inquiry, he saw no need to change course on

:06:56.:07:02.

BSkyB, and he has failed to come clean on Andy Coulson. This is a

:07:02.:07:06.

Prime Minister running scared. Some stories think Rupert Murdoch

:07:06.:07:10.

shouldn't just wait for the Competition Commission, but ditch

:07:11.:07:17.

the BSkyB all together. I know it is very unusual for people in the

:07:17.:07:21.

position of Mr Murdoch to behave honourably and simply with decency,

:07:21.:07:25.

but he ought to recognise what's gone on in his organisation, why

:07:25.:07:32.

there is doubt about its integrity and he ought to withdraw the bid

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for BSkyB, just leave it. Only three weeks ago both Cameron and

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Miliband were happily drinking with Rupert Murdoch at his summer bash.

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The mood has change today dramatically, you would be hard

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pressed now to find any politician who would want to be seen there.

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I gather you have new information tonight? Newsnight has been talking

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to one of Gordon Brown's senior colleagues from his days in Downing

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Street, who has told us how in 2006, in the autumn, the office received

:08:06.:08:11.

a phone call, that somebody from, the political editor of the Sun

:08:11.:08:18.

rang to say that the paper had a tip-off from Edinburgh infirmary,

:08:18.:08:26.

from somebody inside, that Fraser had cystic fibrosis. This was right

:08:26.:08:30.

in the middle of the Pre-Budget Report. Gordon Brown acted very

:08:30.:08:34.

badly, how could they know, how could they report it, how was that

:08:34.:08:40.

in the public interest, he wouldn't let them make a story out of his

:08:40.:08:43.

son's illness. Mr Brown was concerned it would come out in a

:08:43.:08:47.

positive way, not in a way that would be described as tragic or

:08:47.:08:53.

heart-breaking. Mr Brown wanted to issue a pre-emptive statement to

:08:53.:08:59.

stop the Sun coming out with an exclusive story on this. Whereupon

:08:59.:09:03.

Rebekah Brooks phoned up Paul McBride, Gordon Brown's press

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spokesman, and - Damien McBride and got heavy on it, saying there was

:09:10.:09:13.

no justification of a pre-emptive story and this was not the way

:09:13.:09:16.

things were done, she was frightened Gordon Brown would stop

:09:16.:09:23.

the Sun exclusive, in the end the Sun managed to get the story out by

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being interviewed on Sky News, and Gordon Brown did manage to issue

:09:26.:09:29.

the positive statement about the situation a few minutes later.

:09:29.:09:35.

With us now are the Labour MP, Tom Watson, who has unearthed many of

:09:35.:09:38.

the allegations against News International, and the former press

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secretary to David Cameron. You are a very good friend of Gordon Brown,

:09:44.:09:47.

how significant is this story about his son? I didn't know about it

:09:47.:09:53.

until I actually saw it today. But, I wouldn't want that kind of thing

:09:53.:09:58.

about my children slapped all over the papers, and I would be very

:09:58.:10:02.

upset if it came out. It is yet another tragic story in this saga

:10:02.:10:10.

that isn't over. And yet, having had that done to him, he still went

:10:10.:10:15.

to Rebekah Brooks's wedding? Yeah, isn't that the weird thing about

:10:15.:10:18.

politics. You are on this tread mill, you have to do these things.

:10:18.:10:21.

There is a sense he has a big responsibility, he has to win

:10:21.:10:24.

elections and a lot of people behind him. He probably didn't want

:10:24.:10:27.

to go to the wedding but felt he had to. You will have to ask him

:10:27.:10:34.

why he went. This frankly twaudry relationship between politicians,

:10:34.:10:38.

not just of your party but all parties and this particular empire

:10:38.:10:43.

is being increatesingly exposed isn't it? Yeah, and the good that

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is already coming out of this, we have to get the criminals in jail.

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But the good coming out of it is those days are over. The

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familiarity between these people is going to be reduced. If you ask for

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the Prime Minister's diary, when Rupert Murdoch visits Number Ten,

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if he goes downstairs it is published, but if he has a private

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meeting in the flat it is considered a private meeting. Those

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silly little arrangements have to stop. Do you think this is a

:11:12.:11:17.

turning point? I do, I think we have a real problem, it has gone on

:11:17.:11:23.

for decades, swaggering editors and newspaper proprietor, cutting

:11:23.:11:28.

across newspaper editorials of their newspapers, it is counter-

:11:28.:11:32.

productive and undermined journalism itself. If what comes

:11:32.:11:38.

out of it is a proper regulatory framework, and the kind you have in

:11:38.:11:43.

broadcasting and on the print press it would be a good outcome. There

:11:43.:11:53.
:11:53.:11:53.

is nothing new, Tom Baldwin, the prerogative of the harlot, this is

:11:53.:11:59.

since newspapers began. Why did David Cameron hire Andy Coulson?

:11:59.:12:03.

was going to explain. There was a very concerted attempt not to play

:12:03.:12:09.

this game, to keep the media at arm's length to focus on an agenda.

:12:09.:12:13.

By hiring a tabloid editor? What happened is in 2007 there was a

:12:13.:12:17.

feeling that actually there would be an election immediately. Gordon

:12:17.:12:20.

Brown would do everything to get headlines for the next day, there

:12:20.:12:25.

was a modification in that approach. That may have been wrong. All I'm

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saying now is. What you call a modification is an abandonment of

:12:30.:12:36.

what you said would be a new policy? Not an abandonment, but not

:12:36.:12:40.

putting them at arm's length. was a mistake? With hindsight it

:12:40.:12:45.

was. To be fair, both parties on this have had a problem. Alastair

:12:45.:12:48.

Campbell, for the best part of ten years was telling Tony Blair that

:12:48.:12:51.

we needed to do something about the media, and he was right. There was

:12:51.:12:55.

a period where actually there was a cross-party consensus on this, that

:12:55.:13:01.

broke in 200. Now, from where we are, if something good comes out it

:13:01.:13:04.

means proper regulation of the media. Once and for all we can put

:13:04.:13:09.

the profession of journalism into a I hooer plain. Everyone is

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incredibly pious at a time of embarrassment like this. Let's try

:13:13.:13:17.

to engage with practical mechanisms, for how this relationship, which

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has been the dominant feature of what has come out today. This

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relationship between a particular media empire, but let's say all

:13:26.:13:30.

media empires and politicians ought to be reconstructed? Yeah, get rid

:13:30.:13:35.

of the PCC and rebuild it. No Press Complaints Commission? You need

:13:35.:13:39.

independent representation on a new body. You need sanction that is

:13:39.:13:45.

people would volunteer to so when an editor make as mistake and is

:13:45.:13:49.

guilty of a wrongdoing they can oblige the paper to put it right.

:13:49.:13:53.

You need far more transparency at the heart of Government. These

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private sessions needing to. Do you think there should be a requirement

:13:56.:14:06.

to make it public? The meetings between owners and editors. When a

:14:06.:14:09.

proprietor meets someone in Downing Street. They will get around it by

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sending a flunky? They may try to get round the world, now Rupert

:14:15.:14:21.

Murdoch can go in the back passage and have a meeting in the Number

:14:21.:14:28.

Ten flat and no-one knows about it, that is remarkable. You have to

:14:28.:14:35.

separate proprietors from their editorial and decisions, you don't

:14:35.:14:39.

have them dictating what to do. Because there is a proper code, if

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you break the code you have to put it right. The other really

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tarnished outfit to come out of this so far, and doubtless there

:14:47.:14:52.

may be many more, is the police, who are both incompetent, and some

:14:53.:14:58.

of them corrupt. What should happen to Assistant Commissioner Yates?

:14:58.:15:02.

John Yates misled parliament, he was task today review this 2006

:15:02.:15:06.

evidence, within that evidence was the signs that Milly Dowler's phone

:15:06.:15:09.

had been hacked and the Soham families were in there, he came to

:15:09.:15:13.

parliament and said there was no new evidence. I think his position

:15:13.:15:19.

is untenable. He should be sacked? He should resign with dignity.

:15:19.:15:22.

have certainly questions to answer the police, the fact that they had

:15:22.:15:26.

access to this information, the only ones that did and they didn't

:15:26.:15:31.

take it. Do you have confidence in John Yates? I don't, personally.

:15:31.:15:39.

you think he should resign? position is not good, frankly, yeah.

:15:39.:15:45.

Commercial confidence in Rupert Murdoch is leaking like a sieve,

:15:45.:15:48.

shares in BSkyB dropped again today, as did the shares in the American

:15:48.:15:52.

operation. In the long and inglorious history of newspaper

:15:52.:15:56.

Barons there have occasionally been some who are sane and decent, they

:15:56.:16:00.

are comfortably outnumbered by the Conrad Blacks and Rupert Murdoch

:16:00.:16:03.

and others. Murdoch claimed to be something different, a newspaper

:16:03.:16:07.

man who happened to become a multimedia tycoon. He never

:16:07.:16:11.

surrendered his close, personal control of his empire. As we report,

:16:11.:16:17.

that is increasingly seen as part of the problem.

:16:17.:16:21.

Rupert Murdoch sits atop a complex British arm of his News Corp

:16:21.:16:26.

operation. His son James oversees the company's European and Asian

:16:26.:16:29.

interests, including News International, that is the company

:16:29.:16:33.

that owns the Times, the Sunday Times and the Sun, and until

:16:33.:16:38.

yesterday, the News of the World, James is also chairman of BSkyB, of

:16:38.:16:42.

which, News Corporation owns 31%, they want to own it all. In an

:16:42.:16:47.

effort to save the deal in which they would get it all they have

:16:47.:16:51.

sacrificed the News of the World. As Rupert Murdoch left his London

:16:51.:16:55.

home today, it was clear this wasn't going to go any where near

:16:55.:17:03.

as swaujing the anger threatening to - assuageing the anger

:17:03.:17:13.
:17:13.:17:14.

threatening to overcome the deal. They were going to buy off BSkyB,

:17:14.:17:19.

limiting the amount of British news media they were in charge of. This

:17:19.:17:23.

afternoon they withdrew that undertaking, triggering the

:17:23.:17:25.

Competition Commission investigation that they had been

:17:25.:17:30.

working so hard to avoid. Why would they do that? The answer is given,

:17:30.:17:35.

where they are now, given the position that they can see going

:17:35.:17:38.

forward, getting a Competition Commission investigation is about

:17:38.:17:47.

the best position they can hope to be in. I think they are giving it

:17:47.:17:49.

time and letting things quieten down while the Competition

:17:49.:17:53.

Commission does their job, hopefully that will deal with

:17:53.:17:57.

questions about whether or not News Corp is a fit and proper

:17:57.:18:02.

organisation to hold this license. Once that is all dying down the

:18:03.:18:05.

Competition Commission will have progressed and hopefully find in

:18:05.:18:09.

favour of the ablgquigs. Then it will go ahead, with nobody really

:18:09.:18:13.

complaining that much. That question of whether News Corp

:18:13.:18:17.

executives are fit and proper people to be involved in

:18:17.:18:20.

broadcasting is another headache for the company. A question to be

:18:20.:18:25.

judged by offcome. Up until 2010 Stuart Purves was in charge of

:18:25.:18:29.

standards for Ofcom. If you were to decide today, that members of the

:18:29.:18:34.

BSkyB, because of their connection say with News International, not

:18:34.:18:39.

many have one, but some do, that they were not fit and proper people,

:18:39.:18:44.

how can they hold the BSkyB license today. You have to say what will be

:18:44.:18:48.

done about the present BSkyB license, put aside the acquisition.

:18:48.:18:53.

The American side of the Murdoch empire may prove problematic. Now

:18:53.:19:03.
:19:03.:19:05.

running the Dow Jones in the wall treat journal, Les Hinton was in

:19:05.:19:11.

charge there at the alleged time of bribes. Even if he wasn't in charge,

:19:11.:19:16.

the company could full foul of the American law. In the US law you can

:19:16.:19:22.

be found liable for an FTCA accusation. For anyone acted within

:19:22.:19:26.

the scope of their employment makes payments intended to benefit at

:19:26.:19:30.

least in part the business organisation. So there really are

:19:30.:19:35.

potentially two pronging of this investigation from a US standpoint

:19:35.:19:41.

if it doesn't sue, the kprot level, or perhaps, although we don't know

:19:41.:19:44.

at this point as to culpable individuals. James Murdoch, some

:19:44.:19:49.

believe, could be vulnerable too, he approved huge payments to the

:19:49.:19:55.

victims of hacking. You embarked on a sustained and deliberate cover-up,

:19:55.:20:01.

this is the ago saying, because you knew how terrible it was and you -

:20:01.:20:07.

this is what people are saying, because you knew how terrible it

:20:07.:20:17.

was. I acted on the advice of executives and lawyers. Within the

:20:17.:20:21.

complete investigation, that is a regret for me. The investigation

:20:21.:20:26.

buys the Murdoch's time, but to do what. The rumour swirling around

:20:26.:20:30.

the Times newspaper this afternoon, is that title might be the subject

:20:30.:20:34.

of the Murdoch's next drastic move. To the guys in New York, this

:20:35.:20:38.

Wapping appears to be in a bit of a time warp, it is about the Murdoch

:20:38.:20:42.

heritage, it is about how he first got into newspapers in Britain,

:20:42.:20:47.

rather than the future of News Corp. It could go? I'm not suggesting it

:20:47.:20:51.

happens today, or in five years time. Maybe if there is a post-

:20:51.:20:55.

Rupert Murdoch moment, who knows when that will be, when the guys in

:20:55.:20:58.

New York actually want to run it as a different kind of company.

:20:58.:21:01.

Remember that the only ground that is the Competition Commission are

:21:01.:21:06.

going to judge the Sky deal on is plurality, that is its impact on

:21:06.:21:11.

the number of distinct voices in British news. If the Murdoch empire

:21:11.:21:17.

gets rid of its British newspaper, well the plurality problem goes

:21:17.:21:25.

away. Michael Wolf is a contributing editor to Vanity Fair,

:21:25.:21:28.

and knows Rupert Murdoch better than most, after spending 50 hours

:21:28.:21:32.

interviewing him and his family for a biography. This talk that we hear

:21:32.:21:36.

over on this side of the Atlantic, that Murdoch might just get rid of

:21:36.:21:40.

all his newspapers here, in order to concentrate on television, does

:21:40.:21:46.

it make sense to you? We hear it on this side of the Atlantic too. What

:21:46.:21:51.

we are hearing is the voice of panic. Nobody knows what to do. I

:21:51.:21:57.

think every scenario is open for discussion. There are also, there

:21:57.:22:02.

has always been a faction within News Corp here that says why do we

:22:02.:22:06.

have these newspapers. Newspapers, British newspapers, makes no sense

:22:06.:22:11.

to us. We own a lot of businesses which are growing, that business is

:22:11.:22:17.

shrinking. So this becomes inside of News Corporation a political

:22:17.:22:22.

moment to say let's get rid of them. In a more general way, it is

:22:22.:22:26.

looking at this crisis, and saying we are really in trouble. It is

:22:26.:22:32.

also looking and saying how do we continue to run the News

:22:32.:22:35.

International. So many of its executives are now utterly

:22:35.:22:44.

discredited. Are you referring to members of his family?

:22:44.:22:48.

referring to Rebekah Brooks, I'm referring to James Murdoch, who

:22:48.:22:52.

obviously has suffered an enormous loss of credibility. Is part of the

:22:52.:22:57.

problem here the way in which Rupert Murdoch runs what is a

:22:57.:23:03.

public company, as if it were a private thiefdom? That is a

:23:03.:23:09.

question that is coming up in this country more and more, that this is

:23:09.:23:12.

an issue of governance. That is a question that will have to go to

:23:13.:23:18.

the board. We now have a situation of course where the Murdochs,

:23:18.:23:23.

people named Murdoch, are not accountable in conventional ways,

:23:23.:23:30.

we have a situation in had which people named Murdoch have and are

:23:30.:23:34.

you suffering a heamorrhage of credibility. I think they are

:23:34.:23:37.

reasonably at the point where this heamorrhage has been so great that

:23:37.:23:42.

you have to ask are these people who caught to be running a great

:23:42.:23:48.

public company. He's a pretty old man now, look 20 years down the

:23:48.:23:54.

road s this going to be a company, do you think, controlled by a

:23:54.:23:59.

Murdoch? You know, I would say, you know a matter of months down the

:23:59.:24:04.

road, this may not be a company controlled by someone named Murdoch.

:24:04.:24:10.

Do you think have any insight into why it is he's so protective of

:24:10.:24:17.

Rebekah Brooks? Well, I do. I think it is a family issue, number one,

:24:17.:24:23.

and remember, the Murdochs see this as a family company. The first

:24:23.:24:33.

issue is what is good for the family. Rebekah is very close to

:24:33.:24:39.

James and close to his daughter Elizabeth and her husband Matthew

:24:39.:24:46.

Freund. I know Murdoch and Rebekah themselves are very close. Rebekah

:24:46.:24:55.

told me the story once about she stopped smoking about - because

:24:55.:24:59.

Murdoch challenged her in a swimming race. If she won she would

:24:59.:25:06.

give up cigarettes. We are talking about a really family intimate

:25:06.:25:14.

relationships. The other aspect of this is that traditionally when

:25:14.:25:21.

someone in News Corp is attacked outside by someone outside the

:25:21.:25:25.

company, they close ranks, they never fire anyone. In the New York

:25:25.:25:31.

post they had to admit that the editor of page 6, Richard Johnson,

:25:31.:25:36.

was taking bribes, being paid to write stories. Richard still works

:25:36.:25:45.

for News Corporation. This is an entire newspaper should

:25:45.:25:50.

down here? Absolutely. They shut down a newspaper so that, in part,

:25:50.:25:58.

the executives could cope their jobs. Do you hear anything about

:25:58.:26:03.

potential lawsuits there? There has been a shareholders lawsuit filed

:26:03.:26:08.

in Delaware today. I expect there will be more suits, of course there

:26:08.:26:18.

will be. What are they trying to claim?

:26:18.:26:21.

are trying to claim that there is a level of unfitness here.

:26:21.:26:26.

Thank you. No-one, neither the Murdoch empire,

:26:27.:26:32.

nor the politicians who courted it, nor journalism, more broadly, is

:26:32.:26:36.

emerging from this scandal smelling good. For the police the smell is

:26:36.:26:40.

especially bad, the best they can get away with are accusations of

:26:40.:26:45.

being feeble and incompetent, at worst our suspicions of corruption

:26:45.:26:49.

and accusation that is individual officers were bought and sold.

:26:49.:26:54.

Scotland Yard got testy today claiming people were trying to

:26:54.:27:00.

wreck the current inquiry that the News of the World tried 0 get phone

:27:00.:27:06.

numbers for the Royal Family by bribing police officers.

:27:06.:27:10.

Once again, the ethics which should underminute the relationship

:27:10.:27:14.

between police and journalists, is under scrutiny as never before.

:27:14.:27:20.

When it works it is symbiotic, hacks need story, police need to

:27:20.:27:25.

investigate. A shrew of allegations in recent days shows the darker

:27:25.:27:30.

side. Any journalist worth his salt will try to persuade police

:27:30.:27:35.

officers to share information, that is what good information is all

:27:35.:27:40.

about. There is a line that can't be crossed. News today that a

:27:40.:27:45.

member of the Royal Protection Squad, has passed on information in

:27:45.:27:50.

return for cash has come as a shock. Personal protection officers travel

:27:50.:27:55.

in the same car as the royals, close ones in back-up vehicles.

:27:55.:28:01.

Others guard buildings. The BBC was told today that News of the World's

:28:01.:28:05.

former royal editor asked his editor, at the time, Andy Coulson,

:28:05.:28:15.
:28:15.:28:16.

who went on to work for the PM, or �1,000 for a protection officer to

:28:16.:28:18.

give information. There were phone number force the royals and others

:28:18.:28:22.

in the household. It is unforgivable, for a protection

:28:22.:28:28.

officer who is trusted and trusted by the principles themselves,

:28:28.:28:32.

protection comes in variety of different falls. Protecting their

:28:32.:28:39.

personalities and identity is something that all police should

:28:39.:28:44.

sign up to. The story gets so much worse, the e-mail suggesting these

:28:44.:28:50.

payments were made was discovered by the internal investigation in

:28:50.:28:54.

2007. They didn't disclose until last month. The met police have

:28:54.:28:58.

serious questions to answer about the failure of a previous

:28:58.:29:03.

investigation to uncover the truth. John Yates carried out what the

:29:03.:29:07.

home affairs committee referred to as a review in 2009, but decided no

:29:07.:29:12.

further action was needed. He said this so-called review was not a

:29:12.:29:18.

review at all. John Yates said today he suggests he informed the

:29:18.:29:28.
:29:28.:29:40.

committee he had thoroughly looked I think it is a matter of semantics.

:29:40.:29:45.

When is a review not a review, and when is the checking of facts a

:29:46.:29:52.

review. I think we will need to clarify these questions with John

:29:52.:29:57.

Yates. John Yates is a very experienced police officer, who has

:29:57.:29:59.

held some of the most important jobs in the Metropolitan Police. I

:29:59.:30:03.

think we need to give him the benefit of the doubt until he

:30:03.:30:05.

appears before the committee and plains the difference between the

:30:05.:30:10.

two. He said there were very few victims. He said all the victims

:30:10.:30:13.

had been contacted, he said that all the mobile phone companies had

:30:13.:30:19.

been put on notice in relation to this. All of these things are lies.

:30:19.:30:22.

Some have claimed that senior police officers were too scared at

:30:22.:30:25.

being turned over themselves to tackle News of the World. Something

:30:25.:30:29.

that has always been denied. Can we expect police officers to

:30:29.:30:34.

follow a different moral code to the rest of the law-abiding

:30:34.:30:38.

population. If not, from time to time there will be embarrassing

:30:38.:30:41.

stories about alleged affairs. Are these purely personal matters, or

:30:41.:30:44.

does it lead to the perception that some police officers are open to

:30:44.:30:50.

influence. There is former Assistant

:30:50.:30:57.

Commissioner Andy Hayman who headed the first inquiry in 2006 into

:30:57.:31:01.

phone hacking. He found himself in the headlines over a relationship.

:31:01.:31:06.

The solicitor behind it wrote to the home affairs committee last

:31:06.:31:16.
:31:16.:31:42.

Mr Hayman didn't respond to our questions. Newsnight has been told

:31:42.:31:45.

that police officers from other units were leaking information too.

:31:45.:31:48.

In connection with this diamond heist at the Dome for example,

:31:48.:31:53.

though it remains unconfirmed. Even in terror investigations, we are

:31:53.:31:58.

told the tabloids have deep pockets. The tabloids came and said open

:31:58.:32:04.

check book, they were offering very, very big money. How much, roughly.

:32:04.:32:13.

I can tell you it was six figures. �100,000 plus, with these sums

:32:13.:32:20.

swirling around, it is easy to assume other revelations will come.

:32:20.:32:24.

Bob Milton who headed up the Special Branch protection squad and

:32:24.:32:31.

was in charge of security vetting. Let's deal with the royal security.

:32:31.:32:35.

Are you surprised an officer was prepared toe enter into

:32:35.:32:40.

negotiations to sell a brift royal telephone book? I'm devastated this

:32:40.:32:46.

has been made. Royalty protection, VIP protection at the highest level

:32:46.:32:55.

of integrity, this is a very bad day. This is presumably someone who

:32:55.:33:00.

you vetted? I was responsible for the high standards of vetting in

:33:00.:33:04.

the United States. This family would have had the same as everyone

:33:04.:33:08.

else, if they had access to confidential information. What

:33:08.:33:14.

should be done? A full and hope inquiry has to what why this person

:33:14.:33:19.

was, was it a principal protection officer, someone who sits next to

:33:19.:33:24.

the Queen, or someone who stood outside Buckingham Palace and got

:33:24.:33:30.

hold of the book, we don't know. this, as far as you know, widely

:33:30.:33:34.

available? Anyone working in the environment of the royal protection

:33:34.:33:40.

may have had access to 0 it at some point. That would have had to have

:33:40.:33:43.

had access on security grounds. The point I'm a making is the police

:33:43.:33:47.

officers are vetted at different levels. It may well not be someone

:33:47.:33:54.

at the highest level of vetting. The broader question of the

:33:54.:33:58.

relationship between the tabloid% and the police, this is a murky

:33:58.:34:02.

area? The police and press need to speak to each other, and they need

:34:02.:34:08.

to get their message across. There need to be some strict rules about

:34:08.:34:11.

passing of confidential information, it should not happen. It certainly

:34:11.:34:15.

shouldn't happen for money. That is despicable and a betrayal of the

:34:15.:34:19.

trust that people who have given that information, whether it is

:34:19.:34:23.

police officers working in the community, and working with

:34:23.:34:28.

families of victims, or in this case somebody working close to the

:34:28.:34:37.

Royal Family. It is a criminal offence? Yes it is, they should be

:34:37.:34:40.

have the full wait of the law applied to them. What about the

:34:40.:34:43.

fear that some police have of being turned over in the tabloid press,

:34:43.:34:47.

have you come across that, ever heard of it? The worry we have

:34:47.:34:52.

always is are you vulnerable to an approach from an outside agency. We

:34:52.:34:56.

carry significant responsibility, we have access to very, very secret

:34:56.:35:00.

and confidential material. If you are not squeaking clean yourself,

:35:00.:35:03.

you may well behind that you are vulnerable to an outside agency

:35:03.:35:11.

trying to axe fire that knowledge. They are human - Access that

:35:11.:35:14.

information. They are human beings, and someone will have an affair?

:35:14.:35:17.

They need to be open and honest about that. They can't hide the

:35:17.:35:20.

affairs and risk somebody using that information to try to put them

:35:20.:35:25.

under pressure. They have to be open and honest, if they are having

:35:25.:35:30.

an affair, they need to declare it? To whom? They have a vetting

:35:30.:35:34.

officer. If they are cleared to that level of vetting they should

:35:34.:35:43.

be speaking direct to the officer. If Peter Hain was - Andy Hainaut

:35:43.:35:47.

was performing an investigation what should have happened?

:35:47.:35:52.

can't put senior police officers in the hands and the way of delivering

:35:53.:35:55.

information. If you have done something that makes you vulnerable,

:35:55.:36:01.

then you need to do something about The other person who is under close

:36:01.:36:04.

scrutiny at the moment, is John Yates, the assistant commissioner

:36:04.:36:11.

at the yard, is his position tenable any longer? Somebody should

:36:11.:36:14.

take responsibility. Whether a police officer, or somebody else, I

:36:14.:36:19.

don't know, nobody seems to step up and take responsibility. John Yates

:36:19.:36:22.

vm a very professional and competent police officer. He has

:36:23.:36:27.

admitted he had a lack of judgment two years ago. He will have to make

:36:27.:36:30.

his own decision on whether or not he feels his position is untenable.

:36:30.:36:35.

I couldn't answer that. What do you think personally, would you resign?

:36:35.:36:39.

It depends why he made the decision. If he made it on operational

:36:39.:36:43.

grounds, then fair enough. For any other reason, if he was influenced

:36:43.:36:49.

by any other way he should step down.

:36:49.:36:54.

It was 45 degrees in the gulf state of Qatar today, FIFA, the governing

:36:54.:36:58.

body of world football has ruled that sweltering heat to that is no

:36:58.:37:01.

bar to run around a football pitch. The decision to hold the World Cup

:37:01.:37:09.

there in 2022, is one of the most astonishing for an organisation

:37:09.:37:15.

that seems to like defying belief. Qatar has not what you call a

:37:15.:37:22.

world-boating reputation for soccer. How did it get the world's most

:37:22.:37:31.

glittering football tournament. The head of the bid has spoken to us.

:37:31.:37:36.

Doha's skyline is designed as a display of wealth. Gas and oil

:37:36.:37:42.

reserves turn into steel and glass. In just 20 years this gleaming

:37:42.:37:45.

Metropilis has risen out of the desert, and the rate of range for

:37:45.:37:49.

the people who live here, some of the richest in the world, has been

:37:49.:37:56.

breath-taking. The 2022 FIFA World Youth Cup

:37:56.:38:01.

is...Qatar. And it has a new catalyst for

:38:01.:38:07.

development, the 2022 World Cup. Awarded by FIFA last December, but

:38:07.:38:09.

dogged ever since by murky allegation, that they won the prize

:38:10.:38:16.

using corrupt means. Now for the first time the head of

:38:16.:38:19.

the bid has hit back, strenuously denying the allegations and saying

:38:19.:38:24.

they are being unfairly targeted. Attack on 2022 is because it fits

:38:24.:38:28.

the prejudice that people have in their mind, an Arab nation could

:38:28.:38:33.

not have won. That is what I'm trying to say.

:38:33.:38:38.

Qatar says the real reason for its victory was its promise to spend

:38:39.:38:45.

more than �60 billion. Not on bunging officials, but on 12

:38:45.:38:49.

new stadium, new roads and new airports and a new Metro system,

:38:49.:38:52.

all built for FIFA's month-long football party.

:38:52.:38:58.

This is perhaps the best example of Qatar's bold vision for its future.

:38:58.:39:04.

Ten years from now, they say, this will be a brand new megacity,

:39:04.:39:10.

housing 190,000 people. Over there behind me will be the new 8 6,000

:39:10.:39:14.

seater stadium, build for the 2022 world come final. As you can see,

:39:14.:39:19.

there is a lot of work to be done. Representatives from other

:39:19.:39:24.

countries, who bit against Qatar, still say FIFA got it wrong.

:39:24.:39:34.
:39:34.:39:35.

still think it is unusual to say the least to hold an event of such

:39:35.:39:37.

extraordinary magnitude in such a city. You have to question whether

:39:38.:39:42.

it makes sense to build the kind of infrastructure it takes to create

:39:42.:39:50.

the World Cup. By far the biggest challenge will be combatting the

:39:50.:39:54.

scourging summer sun. Temperatures can reach more than 50 degrees,

:39:54.:40:01.

posing a serious risk to help. typical day we can see up to 40

:40:01.:40:04.

heat presentations. Most are not life threatening, I remember some

:40:04.:40:10.

days we had on a regular, at least once day we would see a life-

:40:10.:40:17.

threatening heat stroke. This is what Qatar says is the

:40:17.:40:21.

solution to its problem with the heat. 12 air conditioned stadiums

:40:21.:40:29.

like this one, with jets puching cool air out across the pitch, and

:40:29.:40:33.

with smaller ones in the stands. At the pitch side it is pleasant. Up

:40:33.:40:37.

there in the stands it is stickier, and the problem for Qatar is, it

:40:37.:40:42.

isn't air condition the whole country.

:40:42.:40:47.

The other more mofgs answer would be to move the World Cup to -

:40:47.:40:50.

controversial answer would be to move the World Cup to winter.

:40:50.:40:54.

This man led the bid and has the task of delivering the project?

:40:54.:41:00.

Would you be prepared to move the World Cup to winter. This is not a

:41:00.:41:03.

question for us, it is for the entire football community. If they

:41:03.:41:07.

said they would prefer it, would you do it? It is a question for

:41:07.:41:11.

them, for the football family, for us we are ready to host it in the

:41:11.:41:19.

winter in the summer, whenever it First impressions of a modern,

:41:19.:41:23.

westernised city, with the usual freedoms are quickly disspelled.

:41:23.:41:28.

Drinking alcohol is banned, except in some hotels and restaurants and

:41:28.:41:32.

there are severe restrictions on sexual behaviour and on the freedom

:41:32.:41:37.

of eggs presidential. There is a perception that Qatar is

:41:37.:41:41.

a human rights compliant country, in fact, it isn't. When people go

:41:41.:41:45.

to Qatar and find out the true situation, they are often shocked

:41:45.:41:49.

at the level of restrictions that they could face. For example, if

:41:49.:41:56.

they say anything in relation to Islam, or to the Amir, or being

:41:56.:42:00.

seen drunk in public, for example, that could land them a sentence of

:42:00.:42:06.

up to six months in prisement. Nearly all the places Newsnight

:42:06.:42:11.

went, we were accompanied by media minders. This is not a country

:42:11.:42:14.

where you can be completely open. The media is not completely free?

:42:14.:42:19.

Can I ask you a question, why do you think the media is not

:42:19.:42:23.

completely free. I understand if you insult the amount mir here you

:42:23.:42:28.

could be liable to a jail sentence of seven years, that doesn't happen

:42:28.:42:33.

in a country that is truly free? think the World Cup will accept

:42:33.:42:37.

accelerate a lot of the initiatives Qatar is doing. Among them freedom

:42:37.:42:41.

of speech, human rights, and so on. A lot of things Qatar is taking on

:42:41.:42:46.

now. There is a level of freedom of speech, maybe not the same as in

:42:46.:42:52.

some countries, like the US and England. Each country has its own

:42:52.:42:56.

factors, culture and tradition. Certain things would be within

:42:57.:43:00.

acceptable norms, certain things would not be. Can any sport, even

:43:00.:43:04.

one as big as football, really deliver that source of social and

:43:04.:43:08.

political change. This man has worked in sports

:43:08.:43:13.

marketing for the gulf for over 20 years? What they have done is very

:43:13.:43:18.

much identified sport as wait to put their country on the map. In

:43:18.:43:22.

the Middle East other countries have tried to do other things,

:43:22.:43:32.
:43:32.:43:32.

Dubai is a commercial hub, Abu Dhabi is a cultural hub. It has

:43:32.:43:35.

brought global recognition for this tiny country, not necessarily for

:43:35.:43:39.

the reasons it might have imagined. Since the vote Qatar's bid has been

:43:39.:43:45.

mired in corruption allegations. A whistle-blower claimed three FIFA

:43:45.:43:51.

members were paid $1.5 million to vote for Qatar, claims she has

:43:51.:43:55.

since retracted. Even if she is now tl telling the truth, the bid is

:43:55.:43:59.

still under scrutiny, especially with the country's most powerful

:43:59.:44:03.

football executive facing accusations he bribed officials,

:44:03.:44:08.

during a bid for the FIFA presidency.

:44:08.:44:13.

Qatar fears its reputation will also be tarnish.

:44:13.:44:19.

Did you bribe FIFA members to get the World Cup? No. At no point you

:44:19.:44:22.

bought any money or gifts or anything beyond the controls to win

:44:22.:44:28.

the race? Had We never broke FIFA's rules. The problem is people will

:44:28.:44:38.
:44:38.:44:38.

look at FIFA's own Ethics Committee to say that he was bribing people

:44:38.:44:42.

to get votes, and people will believe that they was doing that

:44:42.:44:48.

for this vote too? His issues are separate from the bid. We ran our

:44:48.:44:52.

campaign, we lobbied, out of all people we lobbied him the strongest,

:44:52.:45:02.
:45:02.:45:05.

because he from the very first day was not on board with the bid.

:45:05.:45:08.

Football has grown so much in popularity and power over the last

:45:08.:45:13.

few years, that for a country like this, hosting the World Cup is seen

:45:13.:45:17.

as an opportunity to build a nation. But ever since it won the vote back

:45:17.:45:21.

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