20/07/2011 Newsnight


20/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, the Prime Minister tries to take the steam out of the

:00:09.:00:13.

hacking scandal, spending hours in the Commons listening to MPs, and

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finally using the "S" word, sorry. With 20/20 hindsight and all that

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has followed, I would not have offered him the job. It is not

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about hindsight or whether Mr Coulson lied to him, it is about

:00:27.:00:31.

all the information and warnings that the Prime Minister ignored.

:00:31.:00:36.

have got the latest on Murdoch's former lawyers, and the private

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investigator at the heart of it all. The developments have been

:00:39.:00:42.

different from day-to-day, I have no further comment to take at this

:00:42.:00:47.

stage. However, this may change. The BSkyB deal off, the country's

:00:47.:00:51.

best-selling newspaper scrapped, the Murdochs in trouble, how this

:00:51.:00:58.

has changed the media in Britain. Who Two Taxing being better than -

:00:58.:01:04.

Two Maxs better than one, they go head tohead. Germany and France try

:01:04.:01:11.

again to fix the euro, is it fixable, the Shadow Chancellor

:01:11.:01:17.

himself is here to tell us whether the euro can be saved.

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Will the price tag mean that the high-speed railway will work.

:01:22.:01:32.
:01:32.:01:34.

is the dream, build it and they Good evening, after own during

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frontal takes from the opposition, sniping in the media, and sometimes

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lukewarm support from Conservatives, the Prime Minister appeared in the

:01:41.:01:44.

Commons today to try to calm the storm over the hacking scandal.

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With the Commons now in recess it seems to have worked, at least for

:01:48.:01:51.

now, although there were continuing questions over Mr Cameron's

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judgment, his staff appointments, and his interest or otherwise in

:01:54.:02:01.

the Murdoch bid for BSkyB. Just yesterday the Prime Minister

:02:01.:02:06.

was in Lagos, part of an African tour cut short. His last event, a

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press conference with the Nigerian President, Goodluck Jonathan, that

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really is his name. A speedy return to a frenzied

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Westminster, no-one for now at least is calling him Goodluck

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Cameron. David Cameron has been playing a none too subtle game of

:02:29.:02:34.

grandmother's footsteps over Andy Coulson. Tiptoeing ever closer to a

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more condemnatery line. He still hasn't made the outright apology

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that the opposition are demanding, but today, he got closer than ever.

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If it turns out I have been lied to that would be a moment for a

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profound apology. And in that event I can tell you I will not fall

:02:55.:03:00.

short. Of course I regret, and I am extremely sorry about the furore it

:03:00.:03:04.

has caused, with 20/20 hindsight and all that has followed, I would

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not have offered him the job, and I expect that he wouldn't have taken

:03:08.:03:14.

it. But you don't make decisions in hindsight, you make them in the

:03:14.:03:20.

present. You live and you learn, and believe you me, I have learned.

:03:20.:03:23.

This should have been the first day of the parliamentary reserbs

:03:23.:03:28.

instead a statement, and a debate on, yes, hacking. The leader of the

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opposition, one suspect, would gladly do without any more

:03:32.:03:36.

parliamentary holidays ever again. Why doesn't he do more than give a

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half apology, and provide the full apology now for hiring Mr Coulson,

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and bringing him into the heart of Downing Street.

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Today the Prime Minister announced the names of the panel who, with

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Lord Justice Leveson, will inquiry into phone hacking. They are Shami

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Chakrabarti, the civil liberties campaigner and director of Liberty,

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Sir Paul Scott-Lee, former Chief Constable of the West Midlands

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Police. David Lord Currie. Elinor Goodman, former political editor of

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Channel 4 News, and the former political editor of the Telegraph,

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and Sir David Bell, former director of the Financial Times.

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As Rupert Murdoch's private jet was cleared for take off, one thing is

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absolutely clear, next time he lands in this country, he won't

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enjoy such easy access to top politicians. It is his previous

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meetings though that came under the most scrutiny in the Commons today.

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Last Friday he revealed that since taking office, he had met

:04:44.:04:47.

representatives of News International or News Corp,

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including Rebekah Brooks and James Murdoch, on 26 separate occasions.

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So 0 the first question, so the first question I have for the Prime

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Minister, is whether he can assure the House, that the BSkyB bid was

:05:00.:05:08.

not raised in any of those meetings, or in phone calls with those

:05:08.:05:12.

organisations. But although Mr Cameron addressed the subject marks

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he didn't specifically answer the question. He asked about the issue

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of BSkyB, the cabinet secretary has said there was no breach of the

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ministerial code. You heard the evidence of Rebekah Wade yesterday

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saying there was not one single inappropriate conversation. When it

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comes to setting out meetings with News Corporation, I have set out

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every single meeting since the last election. No, the Right Honourable

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gentleman published a list this morning, but it does not go back to

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the last election. Scenting perhaps a weakness a prosession of Labour

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MPs repeated the same question. Prime Minister, did he ever discuss

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the question of the BSkyB bid with News International at all the

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meetings they attended. I never had one inappropriate conversation.

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Backbenchers tried putting the question in more and more creative

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ways. Prime Minister, have you ever uttered the word BSkyB in the

:06:18.:06:28.
:06:28.:06:31.

presence of Rebekah Brooks, Rupert Murdoch or James Murdoch? You know,

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(sighs) Over the past couple of weeks the press has been full of

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reports that Conservative MPs have not been too enthusiastic about

:06:38.:06:41.

lining up to support their Prime Minister. Today, though, they were

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certainly very keen. This might be an unpopular thing to saying, but

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outside the Westminster bubble, I suggest the nation has had its fill

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on the subject, it is actually getting fed up, it wants answers.

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There is an inquiry under way, that is where the answers will come.

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David Cameron's good luck today, though, was the last day of

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parliament. It is committees and such that has kept this stoked with

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fuel. A holiday is something the Prime Minister could do with.

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Richard Watson is here to talk us through some of the new

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developments tonight? Some interesting developments tonight.

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One of the most significant things is News International today stopped

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paying Glenn Mulcaire's legal fees, the private investigator at the

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heart of the scandal. Glenn Mulcaire himself was facing up

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wards of 30 civil case, he was arguing that he shouldn't have to

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give evidence in these because he might incriminate himself or any

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future legal proceedings. His legal costs would have been �500,000

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upwards. News International having pulled the rug from bankrolling his

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legal fees is significant. Is he going to talk now? As you can

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appreciate we are in the middle of a number of inquiries at the moment,

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it is a fluid and developing situation. Like I said, the

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developments have been different from day-to-day, I have no further

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comment to make at this stage. However, this may change. That's

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hanging in the air. Something from Harbottle & Lewis, the wonderfully

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named lawyers firm that used to work for News International? This

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is deeply significant, it is complex territory, so bear with me

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here. Back in 2007, News International appointed this firm

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of lawyers to look at the case of Clive Goodman because he was taking

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civil action against them. As part of that Harbottle & Lewis reviewed

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a dossier of evidence and e-mail, some of these related to e-mail

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traffic between Andy Coulson and the royal correspondent, talking

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about the purchase of a confidential dossier of phone

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numbers from the Royal Family. Now, Harbottle & Lewis were actually

:09:02.:09:05.

asked, we think, to specifically look at the question of phone

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hacking, was there any evidence of other people knowing about the

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phone hacking. On that very narrow point, they wrote to News

:09:12.:09:15.

International saying we don't find any evidence of specific evidence

:09:15.:09:21.

of other people knowing about phone hacking, that assurance was relied

:09:21.:09:24.

upon by News International for the best part of three years, and

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following the evidence to the select committee yesterday it is up

:09:27.:09:31.

for debate. This is absolutely crucial, when Lord McDonald, the

:09:31.:09:35.

former DPP was asked by News International earlier this year to

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review that dossier or part of it, a smaller part of the dossier, he

:09:38.:09:42.

said to the select committee, within minutes he found evidence of

:09:42.:09:46.

major criminality, for example, the attempted purchase of the

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confidential Royal Household phone numbers. Harbottle & Lewis have

:09:50.:09:52.

serious questions to answer about the nature of the advice they gave

:09:52.:09:57.

to News International. Why did they give that narrow advice, maybe that

:09:57.:10:01.

was what they were asked to do. The crucial difference tonight is up

:10:01.:10:04.

until now harsh have not been able to defend themselves, because News

:10:04.:10:08.

International said there was a duty of confidentialty. Tonight News

:10:08.:10:11.

International have lifted that, Harbottle & Lewis are now free to

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make their case to a select committee or the judicial review. I

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think this will be dleep significant. We're joined by

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Michael Fallon, and Ivan Lewis. Why did someone with the obvious

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skills of David Cameron allow himself to get into a position

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where some people saw this as a make or break moment for him?

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wasn't a make or break moment, David Cameron was one of the first

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to recognise that this had got beyond celebrities and politicians.

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This was a very serious issue that both parties had allowed to drift

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for years. This cosy relationship between politicians and the media,

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the fact the press wasn't being regulated properly. Two years ago,

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and he let it fester for the last two weeks? These allegations are

:10:59.:11:03.

five or six years old, he made the point, that not only did the Labour

:11:03.:11:06.

Government do nothing about it, but the Conservative opposition didn't

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ask for it as well. See he - he sees this as an opportunity, and a

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chance to recast the relationship between politicians and media, and

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to see what can be done about recruitment to the police at a high

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level. The Prime Minister is flog ago dead horse here, 136 questions

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today, three hours in parliament, answering every question put to him,

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he has apologised to him, set up numerous inquiries, there is

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nothing else you can expect him to do, if he has made mistakes he will

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admit it? David Cameron apologised for the furore about the

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appointment of Coulson, he didn't apologise for taking Coulson into

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the heart of Downing Street. said might? He ought to apologise

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now. Mr Coulson, as far as we know is an innocent man. We heard today

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David Cameron conceded that he was fully aware of the reports in the

:12:03.:12:06.

New York Times that made serious allegation about Andy Coulson. He

:12:06.:12:09.

wanted to look at Nick Clegg sat next to David Cameron today, who

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made it clear, he looked the Prime Minister in the eye and told him he

:12:13.:12:16.

shouldn't appoint Coulson to Downing Street. It is right we ask

:12:17.:12:22.

Nick Clegg to come clean about what he said to David Cameron in the

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early stages. It is repeating the mistake Miliband did today. You

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flog a dead horse and realise the horse is dead. These were petty

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party points today, Ed Miliband didn't realise the opportunity

:12:35.:12:39.

today for addressing some of the big issues. The Prime Minister was

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embarrassed when the BSkyB deal came up, there was a very pointed

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question from Mr Skinner today, why is that so difficult for the Prime

:12:46.:12:50.

Minister to handle? I don't think it was difficult, he made it

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absolutely clear there was no inappropriate discussions with

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BSkyB. What about these conversations? Happily Rebekah

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Brooks the previous day had testified to parliament that there

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were discussions with David Cameron that she wouldn't have had in front

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of the select committee. Your definition of appropriate is what

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Rebekah Brooks thinks? You are starting to split linguistic hair

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about this. What is important here is if anybody discussed the BSkyB

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bid it wouldn't have made any difference at all, even if they

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hadn't discussed it, which they say they hadn't. If they had discussed

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it, it wouldn't make a difference, because David Cameron was not

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deciding the BSkyB bid, it was decided completely independently by

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the Culture Secretary. The problem your party has and we know, it was

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clear from what Rupert Murdoch said yesterday, that Gordon Brown and

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Tony Blair had been sucking up to them for years? Isn't it

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interesting that Rebekah Brooks talked about appropriate

:13:44.:13:47.

conversations today, and David Cameron used appropriate

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conversations today, what is very important here, since March David

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Cameron has refused to tell me whether he has had discussions with

:13:54.:13:58.

Mr Murdoch or Miss Brooks about BSkyB. Today Jeremy Hunt said out

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of the blue today, the conversations that David Cameron

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has had, have been irrelevant, so, has he had conversations or hasn't

:14:05.:14:08.

he? I tell you why this matters, because if the Prime Minister's

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judgment is in question, this is the Prime Minister who has to make

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decisions about the economy, the health service, about welfare,

:14:14.:14:19.

about the future of our country, if he gets his judgment so wrong on an

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issue like Andy Coulson, people will start to ask questions about

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his judgment more generally. express regret for the appointment

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of Andy Coulson, this is linguistic hair spliting about what is an

:14:32.:14:36.

appropriate discussion. The mistake Labour have made is to do all the

:14:36.:14:40.

petty party points scoring, instead of looking at the big picture of

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how to reform this thing for the future, a better way of deciding

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media ownership, and clear up the issues with the police and have a

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better system of press regulation. He's a clear speaker, couldn't he

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clear it up and say I did have conversations with Rebekah Brooks

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and others about BSkyB, but it had no impact about the bid? Jeremy

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Hunt is the man who took the decision so whatever conversations

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were had they have no impact. not say and come clean. He made it

:15:09.:15:12.

absolutely clear to parliament he had no inappropriate discussion,

:15:12.:15:16.

and Rebekah Brooks, the one who was supposed to have discussed it with

:15:16.:15:19.

him, testified yesterday that she had no inappropriate discussions.

:15:19.:15:24.

This horse is dead, you keep flogging it. What is important

:15:24.:15:27.

about the whole process it was Ed Miliband who called for better

:15:27.:15:31.

regulation for the press in the whole process, it was Ed Miliband

:15:31.:15:36.

who called for an inquiry, it was Ed Miliband who said we need a New

:15:36.:15:41.

Cross party media ownership, if you have too much power in the media it

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leads to this. At every stage Ed Miliband has provided the

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leadership. He's catching up now, but you were in Government for five

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or six years, nothing was done. Thank you very much, enjoy your

:15:53.:15:56.

holiday A series of inquiries have been

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launched as a result of the scandal which has already changed the media

:15:59.:16:03.

landscape, as we know phone hacking by newspapers in the future, as you

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might think, is not very likely. The sale of BSkyB to Rupert Murdoch,

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as we have been discussing, has been postponed, perhaps forever,

:16:10.:16:15.

there are calls for privacy legislation, and as tempers cool,

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will there really be any permanent changes when it comes to press

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investigations, or intrusion, into people's private lives. Will this

:16:22.:16:25.

whole affair hasten the decline of newspapers. I'm joined by Max

:16:25.:16:29.

Clifford, who has enjoyed many celebrities about how to get their

:16:29.:16:34.

stories in and out of newspaper, and Max Moseley, a strong

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campaigner for privacy law after winning a libel case against News

:16:38.:16:41.

of the World. One thing that has changed is the death of the News of

:16:41.:16:44.

the World, are you happy about that? Obviously it is sad when

:16:44.:16:47.

people lose their jobs, but at least they will not be able to do

:16:47.:16:50.

to other people what they did to me and several people. That has

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stopped now I think that is a God thing it should stop. You had a big

:16:55.:16:58.

payout from the News of the World, some people said it was a million

:16:58.:17:03.

pounds, are you sad or happy they have gone? I'm sad they have gone,

:17:03.:17:08.

because the people that have been sacked, but actually they had

:17:08.:17:12.

nothing to do with it. There is a few hundred people who have lost

:17:12.:17:16.

their jobs that had no connection whatsoever with phone hacking.

:17:16.:17:20.

you are sad. Am I right in thinking that the appetite for the kind of

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stories they did will continue in the public so, the desire to fulfil

:17:25.:17:28.

that in newspapers will continue, nothing big will change, the title

:17:28.:17:34.

will go, but somebody else will do it? The Sunday Mirror printed an

:17:34.:17:38.

extra million couple, the Star, several hundred thousand, they all

:17:38.:17:42.

sold far greater numbers than they had previously, there is a huge

:17:42.:17:46.

market. They are trying to capture that market. As indeed is the Mail

:17:46.:17:49.

on Sunday. That won't change, people will still be looking at

:17:49.:17:53.

your private life and the private lives of other people?

:17:53.:17:56.

difference is now there is a recognition that we need to

:17:56.:17:59.

safeguard privacy. Where until now there was no chance of getting any

:17:59.:18:02.

sort of law done in England because parliament, the Government, even

:18:02.:18:07.

the police, were all in the thral of Murdoch, now that has been

:18:07.:18:11.

broken, I think there is every chance the spligss will look at

:18:11.:18:14.

this objectively instead of asking themselves would it please Mr

:18:14.:18:22.

Murdoch. Do you think the fear of the Murdoch has gone and they have

:18:22.:18:26.

lost their power they had, so there is an appetite for the privacy law?

:18:26.:18:31.

You have seen that. Mr Miliband, someone said to me what are the

:18:31.:18:34.

Taliban doing asking questions in parliament, the other day. But they

:18:34.:18:40.

are all standing up to Murdoch mur, they are all, if you like,

:18:40.:18:46.

criticising, none of them would have done that before, they were

:18:46.:18:50.

afraid of him. At the moment, Rupert Murdoch is a very powerful

:18:50.:18:53.

and clever man, he won't take what has happened lying down. We will

:18:53.:18:57.

see what he comes back with. The man has a lot of power worldwide n

:18:57.:19:02.

Australia he has 70% of the media, big chunks in America. We think the

:19:02.:19:06.

difficulty is when all the stuff comes out that is coming out now,

:19:06.:19:10.

when all the information comes out, when we learn the full contents of

:19:10.:19:14.

the Harbottle & Lewis dossier, for example, I think Murdoch will have

:19:14.:19:17.

great difficulty keeping control of his company. I think he may well

:19:17.:19:21.

end up going. That might be the case, but the reality is, I was in

:19:22.:19:31.

a fish and chip shop in Byfleet, called Super Fish, I said everyone

:19:31.:19:35.

has a right to privacy, but would you like to know the secrets of the

:19:35.:19:39.

rich and famous, that was what they were saying. Everybody loves gossip,

:19:39.:19:43.

it doesn't mean it is right to print it. That is the whole point.

:19:43.:19:49.

So when it is pure gossip, when it is tittle tattle, when it is tawdry

:19:49.:19:52.

revelations, there is a strong argument for not doing it. I think

:19:52.:19:56.

we will get a law to stop it. hope there is not a law, I hope

:19:56.:20:00.

there is a free pre, but a Press Complaints Commission that actually

:20:00.:20:07.

is - press, but a Press Complaints Commission that is actually strong

:20:07.:20:11.

enough to take care of the phone hacking and things like that. If

:20:11.:20:15.

you intrude into somebody's private life, you have to justify it on the

:20:15.:20:19.

grounds that the public should know this. It very much depend ones the

:20:19.:20:23.

differences between what the public is interested in, in the fish and

:20:23.:20:26.

chip shop, and what is in the public interest, the public might

:20:26.:20:31.

be interested in Ryan Giggs sex life, but it is not necessarily in

:20:31.:20:35.

the public interest? That is the law we have now. If you balance the

:20:35.:20:38.

right of the individual to privacy against the right of the public to

:20:38.:20:42.

know, and the judge applies a very intense fob cuss. The really

:20:42.:20:46.

important thing is - focus. The really important thing is when it

:20:46.:20:50.

is very focused it should be a judge not a tabloid editor which

:20:50.:20:56.

has a strong vested interest. system is at the moment is unless

:20:56.:21:00.

you are rich you can't take out the super-injunctions. You help people

:21:00.:21:03.

in these case, financially, because you know that you have the means to

:21:04.:21:08.

do that? First of all, Max is quite right, that is not a criticism of

:21:08.:21:11.

the law, it is a criticism of the legal system, that alies all over,

:21:11.:21:17.

it is too expensive. On the particular point, yes, I did and

:21:17.:21:20.

have been helping a few civil actions, that, to begin with was

:21:20.:21:26.

the only way to get it into the public domain. Do you think having

:21:26.:21:28.

anybody own 40% of the British press, or whatever the figure, do

:21:28.:21:32.

you think that is healthy? No, I have said for a long time, I think

:21:32.:21:38.

probably something like 20-25% is the maximum any single person

:21:38.:21:41.

should be entitled to, in terms of the control of the media in one

:21:42.:21:47.

country, let alone 40%, with BSkyB it would have been a lot more. I

:21:47.:21:50.

can't see then, anyone is too powerful and too strong and the

:21:51.:21:54.

politicians need the support of the media. Far too much power in the

:21:54.:21:58.

hands of one group. The combination of the press and television, it

:21:59.:22:01.

should never have got to this stage. You are in business, you have been

:22:01.:22:06.

in business for your whole life, do you think the Murdoch empire will

:22:06.:22:13.

unravel? I think it will probably get broken up, at least in this

:22:13.:22:20.

country, there is a problem with one family having so much power, it

:22:20.:22:24.

is wrong. We need media plurality. Are you very happy to have taken

:22:24.:22:28.

the payout from News International for invading your privacy, it was

:22:28.:22:32.

obviously a difficult moment for you, you got a lot of cash out of

:22:32.:22:37.

them? At the time I wasen the only one to take them on, as one of the

:22:38.:22:42.

five people named nobody else went after them, when I got my

:22:42.:22:46.

settlement people came out of the wood work and had the courage to

:22:46.:22:52.

stand up with them. It was wrong, I had good relationship with News of

:22:52.:22:57.

the World, as I have with every other newspaper and around the

:22:57.:23:02.

world. I fell out with Coulson, we fell out over something, it wasn't

:23:02.:23:05.

News of the World, I was still dealing with the other papers and

:23:05.:23:15.
:23:15.:23:17.

Sky. Did you have to sign a confidentiality report? No nothing

:23:17.:23:20.

at all. The problems of the media have got gone away, in fact they

:23:20.:23:25.

might have become even worse. The head of an emergency summit

:23:25.:23:30.

tomorrow, the IMF has warned European leders to get their act

:23:30.:23:36.

together and be more bold in stablising countries like Greece or

:23:36.:23:45.

there will be global spillovers. The situation is very serious.

:23:45.:23:49.

On the surface this is all about managing what they are calling a

:23:49.:23:54.

partial default by Greece. In other words, that financing a new aid

:23:54.:23:59.

package to Greece will involve giving back to people money already

:23:59.:24:02.

lent to Greece less than they expected. There is something much

:24:02.:24:06.

deeper at stake here, as different key players in Europe put forward

:24:06.:24:11.

rival plans. And that is, the apparent disunity between France,

:24:11.:24:16.

Germany, the big powers in the eurozone, and that is something

:24:16.:24:21.

that sets a bad signal for the future for handling the other

:24:21.:24:24.

sovereign debt crises that are bound to occur, that is what has

:24:25.:24:31.

spooked the markets. As Greece waits for a new bailout,

:24:31.:24:36.

Government austerity policies continue to provoke unrest. Taxi

:24:36.:24:40.

drivers facing deregulation see themselves in a fight for their

:24:40.:24:44.

livelihoods, today it turned violent. And as Europe struggles to

:24:44.:24:49.

make up its mind about a new package the markets are losing what

:24:49.:24:54.

faith they had, pushing the price of borrowing up for other

:24:54.:24:58.

Governments, including Italy's. meeting is very important, this is

:24:58.:25:02.

the real answer to the situation that we are facing. It is not only

:25:02.:25:09.

the entire situation, the way in which Europe will manage a

:25:09.:25:13.

situation which has been getting worse and worse. So the pressure on

:25:13.:25:18.

leaders, critically those of France and Germany, to settle their

:25:18.:25:23.

differences over the sovereign debt crisis, is growing steeply. Germany

:25:23.:25:26.

has argued the banks themselves must share the pain of a new

:25:26.:25:31.

bailout. But several other powerful EU countries say that would

:25:31.:25:35.

effectively mark a partial Greek default, possibly triggering

:25:35.:25:39.

financial turmoil. The head of the European Commission appealed today

:25:39.:25:44.

for these differences to be settled now.

:25:44.:25:51.

Nobody should be under any illusion. The situation is very serious. It

:25:51.:25:56.

requires a response, otherwise the negative consequences will be felt

:25:57.:26:01.

in all corners of Europe, and beyond. So the challenge facing the

:26:01.:26:05.

leaders who will arrive tomorrow is clear enough. The question, though,

:26:05.:26:09.

is whether they will be equal to it, and how they will reconcile an

:26:09.:26:15.

array of possible options, almost all of which have serious downsides.

:26:15.:26:23.

So, given that, is there going to be a deal? The German Chancellor,

:26:23.:26:27.

Angela Merkel was playing it down earlier this week, President

:26:27.:26:31.

Sarkozy has gone to Berlin tonight to try to get common agreement, if

:26:31.:26:36.

France and Germany, the two great motors of the eurozone, political

:26:36.:26:40.

and economic, can agree on this, the best way to put this package

:26:40.:26:44.

together for Greece, then the rift will be healed between those two on

:26:44.:26:50.

this issue, and things can move ahead. Now there is still

:26:50.:26:54.

disagreement about this central issue, which is that the Germans

:26:54.:27:01.

want banks to pay for at least some of this bailout, about 50 billion

:27:01.:27:05.

euros worth, they want to do that from a tax op the banks that have

:27:05.:27:11.

benefited from selling and dealing in Greek debt. The French don't

:27:11.:27:13.

like that, obviously the financial markets are particularly nervous

:27:13.:27:17.

about that idea. It seems to penalise people to give them back

:27:17.:27:22.

less than they were expecting. That's the crux of it. But the key

:27:22.:27:24.

thing really will be, whether any further agreement can be made in

:27:24.:27:29.

the coming two days, both in Berlin, and then in Brussels later tomorrow

:27:29.:27:33.

and Friday. On what the right mechanism should be with dealing of

:27:33.:27:38.

crises of this nature. Because it is bound to reoccur, possibly with

:27:38.:27:41.

the Spanish, with the Italians, with the Portuguese.

:27:41.:27:47.

I'm joined now here in the studio by the Shadow Chancellor, Balls. We

:27:47.:27:52.

have seen a series of sticky plasters and that will continue, do

:27:52.:27:59.

you think the euro will continue in its present form? I think the euro

:27:59.:28:02.

will last because there is a political commitment. Sticky

:28:02.:28:05.

plaster after sticky plaster has been found out for a year now

:28:05.:28:08.

because of a lack of decisive leadership from the Governments in

:28:08.:28:13.

the eurozone to say we will sort this out. The crisis has moved from

:28:13.:28:17.

Greece to Portugal and Ireland, now to Spain and Italy. This is hugely,

:28:17.:28:21.

hugely dangerous and serious, and will have a direct impact on the UK

:28:21.:28:26.

as well. We can't be bystanders, we are close to a real crisis. But we

:28:26.:28:31.

can't be bystanders, but we have no way of particularly influencing

:28:31.:28:35.

this, we are not playing in the euro, and you say lack of

:28:35.:28:40.

leadership, that may be true, Britain can't offer it, what can

:28:40.:28:43.

they do? Can, there is no doubt our Prime Minister and Chancellor have

:28:43.:28:47.

been distracted in recent weeks, but the fact is that this is key to

:28:47.:28:52.

our national interest. Half of our trade is with our European partners.

:28:52.:28:56.

What should they do? They should say we are not in the eurozone, I

:28:56.:28:59.

have to say thank goodness we are not, for Britain to be in the

:28:59.:29:04.

eurozone would be a complete catastrophy. That is another reason

:29:04.:29:09.

for saying we can't be in leadership? We can be an honest

:29:09.:29:13.

broker. In past crises other countries have worked closely with

:29:13.:29:16.

each other, the same should shap now. Our Prime Minister should go

:29:16.:29:20.

to the meeting tomorrow, our Chancellor should be engaged in the

:29:20.:29:24.

debates actively tomorrow. To do what, what should they say? They

:29:24.:29:27.

should say you have to deal with the situation as it is now. You

:29:27.:29:30.

have to stop the contagion, you have to accept that unless there

:29:30.:29:37.

are clear guarantee, which are European wide, or eurozone wide, to

:29:37.:29:41.

say we will put a guarantee under the debt of these countries, the

:29:41.:29:46.

crisis is going to get worse and worse and worse. Has to be done. It

:29:46.:29:50.

does mean more co-ordination. means German tax-payers have to

:29:50.:29:54.

guarantee Greek debt? That is the reality. You wouldn't British tax-

:29:54.:29:59.

payers to do that. That is why we are not in the eurozone That is the

:29:59.:30:03.

price you pay for going into a single currency. Countries like

:30:03.:30:07.

Greece have borrowed more cheaply because they were part of the

:30:07.:30:12.

eurozone area. The point where that becomes clear it is in doubt there

:30:12.:30:16.

is a crisis interest rates go up, the debt is not sustainable, as it

:30:17.:30:20.

spreads into Spain and Italy, it is billions of exposure, hugely

:30:20.:30:24.

significant, and the world cannot allow the eurozone to fail to

:30:24.:30:29.

resolve its political issues and allow that contagion to destablise

:30:29.:30:34.

the British and global economy. are effectively saying that the

:30:34.:30:38.

eurozone has to get tighter and tighter bound together more tightly,

:30:38.:30:42.

that the Germans really have to, you are saying that is implicit in

:30:42.:30:45.

the project, that leaves Britain further on outsued, this is really

:30:45.:30:49.

a two-speed Europe with Britain on the outside? I don't think it was

:30:49.:30:53.

inevitable that the eurozone had to have that degree of fiscal co-

:30:53.:30:59.

ordination, the more it went wide to countries in southern Europe it

:30:59.:31:03.

was raisek. In European politics you have to deal with reality, the

:31:03.:31:07.

reality is without greater burden sharing and co-ordination it will

:31:07.:31:11.

be in deep crisis. The German taxpayer will have to be told this

:31:11.:31:15.

is where we are. Britain would have more leverage, would they not, for

:31:15.:31:18.

example, if the Labour Party voted against doubling the increase in

:31:18.:31:22.

our contribution to the IMF, the Government was in favour of it, it

:31:22.:31:25.

went through. You seem to be saying we should be telling people how to

:31:25.:31:31.

do things but you are not prepared to do any money to it? I'm in

:31:31.:31:35.

fairness with the prescription, not without sorting out the European

:31:35.:31:38.

issues. The fact is our Government, our Chancellor and our Prime

:31:38.:31:40.

Minister, have basically been absent from this debate in the last

:31:40.:31:46.

year. We should be trying to lead these debates. They feel it is

:31:46.:31:50.

complex, as Euro-sceptics we should keep out of it. We should be in

:31:50.:31:54.

there making the argument, I don't think there should be a taxpayer

:31:55.:31:59.

contribution to a eurozone facility. With great respect Ed Miliband two

:31:59.:32:03.

weeks ago was being accused of not being able to lead his party, he

:32:03.:32:07.

won't be able to lead Europe? Leadership is about dealing with

:32:07.:32:13.

crises as they come along with a clear strategic view. In the last

:32:13.:32:17.

two weeks Ed Miliband has had a clear strategic view on the hacking

:32:17.:32:22.

and has led the debate. Our Prime Minister can't lead on hacking or

:32:22.:32:25.

in Europe. That is a dangerous place for Britain to find ourselves,

:32:25.:32:29.

essentially in the European debates, headless, when jobs and growth in

:32:30.:32:34.

Britain are at risk. Do you see an appetite for the German tax-payers

:32:34.:32:38.

to do what you have been suggesting, it is suggested within Europe, and

:32:39.:32:43.

there is hugely contentious issues within Germany? In the end it will

:32:43.:32:47.

happen, the longer it takes the more dangerous the crisis is. Our

:32:47.:32:52.

Prime Minister and Chancellor should be urging action, and that

:32:53.:32:57.

co-ordination. Spending other people's money is the point I'm

:32:57.:33:00.

making? They shouldn't just say the bigger your cuts the faster, the

:33:00.:33:06.

better. It hasn't worked in Greece or Ireland, here in Britain we will

:33:06.:33:10.

have GDP figures, what has happened in the last six months is our

:33:10.:33:14.

economy has flatlined. We are trying to take that medicine and it

:33:14.:33:16.

isn't working, no wonder our Chancellor of the Exchequer is

:33:16.:33:23.

worried tonight. My view is it is time for a bit of leadership.

:33:23.:33:27.

Nine days are all you have left to tell the Government what you think

:33:27.:33:30.

about HS2, the high-speed rail network which is planned to cut

:33:30.:33:33.

journey times between the north and south of England, with trains

:33:33.:33:39.

moving at more than 200 miles an hour. The cost, �32 billion.

:33:39.:33:43.

Critics, many who live along the proposed route, say it is a waste

:33:43.:33:48.

of money. Others say it is the only way to make the railways fit for

:33:48.:33:58.
:33:58.:34:07.

the 21st isn'try. Will HS2 ever I'm about to catch a train from

:34:07.:34:10.

Birmingham to London, I'm looking forward to the time of reading a

:34:10.:34:14.

book or do work. If the high-speed rail service comes in, more than

:34:14.:34:18.

half an hour will be cut from my journey. It will cost an absolute

:34:18.:34:22.

fortune, but supporters say it will deliver huge benefits to the

:34:22.:34:29.

economy. Even at current speeds, long

:34:29.:34:32.

distance train travel has become increasingly popular in Britain,

:34:32.:34:36.

and the trains are getting more crowded. Building extra capacity is

:34:36.:34:41.

part of a case for HS2, the high- speed rail project. Long distance

:34:41.:34:48.

rail trips almost doubled in the period from 195 to 2008. Domestic

:34:48.:34:52.

air travel grew rapidly too, but dipped sharply in recent years.

:34:52.:34:57.

While the number of long car journies has hardly grown at all.

:34:57.:35:01.

Just about everyone thinks the rail network needs extra leg room, but

:35:01.:35:07.

there is violent disagreement on whether HS2 is the answer.

:35:07.:35:11.

doesn't stack um economically, environmently, even technically it

:35:11.:35:16.

can't operate in the way they said it should. We need the confidence

:35:16.:35:19.

to develop the best technology available and make sure we are

:35:19.:35:29.
:35:29.:35:35.

connecting our cities properly and A big part of the economic case for

:35:35.:35:40.

high-speed rail depends on the idea of saving people time. The

:35:40.:35:43.

assumption is that valuable people are spending lots of valuable

:35:43.:35:47.

minutes doing absolutely nothing when they could be working. But

:35:47.:35:52.

does that really hold up any more? On any train these days, and not

:35:52.:35:57.

just in first class, you will find people working away on laptops and

:35:57.:36:02.

smartphones. Not only can I work, but I do it in comfort, and I'm not

:36:02.:36:06.

disturbed by phone call, I'm more productive here than sometimes I am

:36:06.:36:10.

in my office. But will getting to the office half an hour faster mean

:36:10.:36:13.

a big boost to productivity? don't think it will make a

:36:13.:36:17.

difference at all. I'm not sure it is money well spent. I work two to

:36:17.:36:22.

three days a week in Birmingham. And we use the Internet and

:36:22.:36:27.

conference calls any way. So really, I mean, we're living in a much more

:36:27.:36:31.

technological age, I don't really see, I think it would be good to

:36:31.:36:36.

invest maybe more in better Wi-Fi for more people. At speeds of 225

:36:36.:36:41.

miles an hour or more, the HS2 project promises to transform rail

:36:41.:36:45.

travel. It is in two stages. First the line from London to Birmingham,

:36:45.:36:50.

to be completed by around 2026, at a cost of something like �17

:36:50.:36:56.

billion. That will cut the time of the fastest journey from an hour

:36:56.:37:00.

and 24 minutes to 49 minutes, there will be a knock-on effect for

:37:00.:37:04.

trains heading further afield. The real time savings in the north of

:37:04.:37:08.

England come in the next phase, to be completed in the mid-2030s,

:37:08.:37:14.

pushing the total bill up to �32 billion. That would reduce the

:37:14.:37:17.

journey time to Manchester to 55 minutes, to an hour and 13 minutes.

:37:17.:37:22.

While an hour will come off a trip to Leeds, putting that city an hour

:37:23.:37:29.

and 20 minutes from London. There is now ferocious opposition

:37:29.:37:34.

to the plans, mostly from those living along the route. Opponents

:37:34.:37:37.

say they prefer investment in existing networks, where passengers

:37:37.:37:42.

would see benefits sooner. HS2, they claim, doesn't make any sense.

:37:42.:37:47.

The business case is deeply flawed, I'm a business person and been

:37:47.:37:51.

through many business cases and produced them. The costs exceed the

:37:51.:37:56.

benefits, that is perception it will help the north, when all the

:37:56.:37:59.

economist ace gree they will benefit primarily in London. Most

:37:59.:38:07.

of the jobs will be created in London. This is an exciting, sexy,

:38:07.:38:14.

pointy-nose projects at a time of austerity, like Concorde, can we

:38:14.:38:18.

spend more than �1,000 a household for something that is not top of

:38:18.:38:22.

the priority list and doing it in the most expensive possible way

:38:22.:38:28.

with a completely new line. Business supports of the - Business

:38:28.:38:31.

supporters say the economy will suffer in the north if it isn't

:38:31.:38:35.

built and it is not just about speed. It is about tackling the

:38:35.:38:41.

capacity restraint, I haven't seen a better way to tackle the chronic

:38:41.:38:48.

capacity restraints we will face in the Network Rail. East Coast Main

:38:48.:38:52.

Line will be full within 12 years, this is the best way to tackle the

:38:52.:38:56.

capacity. The time savings are like the icing on the cake. They bring

:38:56.:39:01.

additional economic and regeneration benefits.

:39:01.:39:07.

Whether you think spending billions on high-speed rail is a good idea,

:39:07.:39:10.

is how you see our working lives changing in the next few decades.

:39:10.:39:15.

Is Britain going to be a country where Japanese-style bullet trains

:39:15.:39:21.

speed to us meetings one hundreds of miles away in minutes, or does

:39:21.:39:27.

it like this. Matt runs a software business a few miles from the high-

:39:27.:39:34.

speed line. Jane hasn't met Billy. Everyone has been in the same room

:39:34.:39:38.

not necessarily at the same time. He and four colleagues spread

:39:38.:39:43.

across south-east England, meet on- line, rather than by hopping on to

:39:43.:39:50.

a train. Where would you guys like money spent on high-speed rail or

:39:50.:39:55.

high-speed broadband? Both. My vote is for high-speed broadband, that

:39:55.:40:03.

is a more effective way of bringing people together in the future.

:40:03.:40:06.

want high-speed broadband on trains!

:40:06.:40:16.
:40:16.:40:16.

This is the office of the future! For one huge train enthusiast, the

:40:16.:40:23.

idea that fast broadband might replace fast trains is preposterous.

:40:23.:40:29.

The music producer, Pete waterman commutes from London to Warrington

:40:29.:40:35.

three times a week. Broadband doened employ people, all it does

:40:35.:40:39.

is make telecommunication companies richer. Do we want to employ people

:40:39.:40:42.

and distribute the wealth and bring more people into the working ethic,

:40:42.:40:47.

or do we want to just put everybody playing games all day long. What

:40:47.:40:52.

about the mounting evidence that the business case for HS2 doesn't

:40:52.:40:57.

add up? No way the numbers add up, that is where the argument all

:40:57.:41:03.

falls down, this is the dream. Build it and they will come. You

:41:03.:41:06.

cannot analyse railway, you have never been able to. Since they

:41:06.:41:11.

built the first railways, everybody has been doing figures. If you are

:41:11.:41:15.

going to do that, don't build the railway. You can make 50 arguments

:41:15.:41:20.

for and against. What they never do, is look at history and say every

:41:20.:41:26.

time we built a new railway the country has changed for the better.

:41:26.:41:30.

My trip to London is almost over, 80 minutes of wasted time or

:41:30.:41:34.

productive work, take your pick. The truth is, the case for HS2 is

:41:35.:41:39.

full of so many variables it is impossible to say today whether two

:41:39.:41:43.

decades from now it will prove worthwhile. So, politics, not

:41:43.:41:48.

economics, could decide where this journaly ends.

:41:48.:41:54.

Now joining me is the Conservative MP whose constituency lies on the

:41:54.:41:58.

route, and joining me from Birmingham is Patrick Twist, who

:41:58.:42:01.

signed an open letter from business people supporting the Government's

:42:01.:42:06.

plans. Why is it not the answer? simply doesn't make sense from a

:42:06.:42:12.

taxpayer, value for money perspective, there is an awful lot

:42:12.:42:16.

you can do with �30 billion, that will generate a lot more new jobs

:42:16.:42:20.

in the north of England. It is not just new jobs, it is about getting

:42:20.:42:25.

around this country, you do accept there are real problems on the

:42:25.:42:29.

Network Rail? It doesn't solve those either. The rail problems are

:42:29.:42:35.

now, we are incredibly congested on the West Coast Mainline. This

:42:35.:42:38.

wouldn't do anything until 2026, 15 years away. There is a lot to be

:42:38.:42:42.

done now, not waiting until then. What is the case for building this,

:42:42.:42:47.

why do we need it? I think it is primarily the capacity issue, and I

:42:47.:42:50.

have heard what Angela said, but the reality is that improvements of

:42:50.:42:53.

that nature won't be delivered within the next six months or so.

:42:53.:42:57.

Whatever the nature of them, they will be delivered over a longer

:42:57.:43:01.

period. And the sort of improvement that is we are talking about would

:43:01.:43:06.

not deliver the added capacity that is going to be needed in the long-

:43:06.:43:10.

term through to the middle of this century. But Mr Twist I was struck

:43:10.:43:14.

by hearing one of the leading advocates for it, effectively

:43:14.:43:21.

saying it is a leap of faith that will cost the taxpayer �32 billion?

:43:21.:43:24.

I don't endorse that, I don't think it will cost the taxpayer �3

:43:25.:43:29.

billion. If you look at the case for HS2, the benefit cost ratio,

:43:29.:43:33.

that is the ratio from cost to benefit, it comes out according to

:43:33.:43:36.

the department for transport, who historically have not supported

:43:36.:43:40.

rail projects. It comes out at 2-1. I know that a lot of people

:43:40.:43:44.

watching this will think you don't like it because it goes through an

:43:44.:43:47.

area that affects your constituent, and naturally they will be

:43:47.:43:52.

irritated by it, not in my backyard. We see that with projects from wind

:43:52.:44:01.

farms to high-speed rail links? am not a NIMOBY. It was raised to

:44:01.:44:06.

my attention because it was going through the middle of countryside.

:44:06.:44:11.

I supported the principle in March 2010, and objected to the route.

:44:11.:44:16.

Over that time I have spent a lot of time looking into the business

:44:16.:44:22.

case and the detail. It doesn't add up, tax-payers have a right to that

:44:22.:44:26.

money. You don't want it to go through anywhere, you think it is

:44:26.:44:31.

wrong. What would happen if we don't build it. Would would be the

:44:31.:44:35.

downside for the country. We would have the issue of capacity,

:44:36.:44:39.

whereby I don't know if you travel on the West Coast Mainline, already

:44:39.:44:43.

if you travel up on a Thursday or Friday evening, you will find that

:44:43.:44:47.

the trains are already full. We would be just left further behind,

:44:47.:44:51.

you look across the world and see what's happened. In 1964 the

:44:51.:44:56.

Japanese built their first line from Tokyo to Osaka, I haven't

:44:56.:45:02.

heard the Japanese saying that was a mistake. In France, 30 years ago,

:45:02.:45:06.

they are connected to two major cities, Paris and Lyon, they have

:45:06.:45:11.

expanded it further. I entirely endorse what was said there, build

:45:11.:45:15.

it and they will come. That is true about France and also Japan and

:45:15.:45:19.

Spain? Of course there is an issue of distances, they have far greater

:45:19.:45:23.

distances to travel. There is also an issue that there is some magical

:45:23.:45:27.

thinking about the benefits of those projects, some of them have

:45:27.:45:30.

been reduced. In China they are slowing their high-speed trains

:45:30.:45:35.

down. In France there isn't an overwhelming endorsement for the

:45:35.:45:38.

regenerative capabilities of high- speed rail. Very often the

:45:38.:45:41.

regeneration is sucked into the city and way from the hub that is

:45:41.:45:46.

seeking to benefit. With Members of Parliament at last

:45:46.:45:50.

heading off for their summer break, we wanted to bring back the best

:45:51.:45:54.

political brains in Britain. It says here, the Newsnight panel to

:45:54.:45:58.

give us their thoughts on where we are in the hacking scandal and

:45:58.:46:03.

politics more widely. I'm joined by Danny Finkelstein, who is a Times

:46:03.:46:06.

columnist and used to be an MP for the Conservatives. Julian Astle,

:46:07.:46:12.

and Peter Hyman. We have all been very entertained,

:46:12.:46:16.

informed, it has been a fascinated, extraordinary couple of week, but

:46:16.:46:21.

for the party leaders, has anything changed? Quite a lot has. Mainly in

:46:21.:46:25.

the Westminster bubble, this issue won't decide the next election,

:46:25.:46:29.

let's be clear about that. It has changed the dynamics, Ed Miliband

:46:29.:46:34.

is on the front foot, a good week or two. David Cameron has looked

:46:34.:46:38.

very uncomfortable, he has been on the back foot. It is a frustrating

:46:38.:46:42.

few weeks for Nick Clegg, what he knows, most people would concede,

:46:42.:46:47.

his party is the one party of the three that has managed to keep Anne

:46:47.:46:52.

proper rate distance from the Murdoch people. Maybe it is the

:46:52.:46:55.

other way round he would concede that too. For whatever reason that

:46:55.:47:01.

is the historical fact. He hasn't a platform to make that case. He has

:47:01.:47:06.

been sidelined. The good news from his narrow party political

:47:06.:47:09.

perspective is this is a slow burn story. We have a year, maybe two

:47:09.:47:13.

years of inquiries, revelations, investigations and so forth, as

:47:13.:47:17.

that happens it will reflect well on the Liberal Democrats?

:47:17.:47:20.

That is true, it won't go away however well David Cameron did

:47:20.:47:25.

today? It won't go away for a story, nor ought it. Julian is right, it

:47:25.:47:29.

is not an election settler. It will change the terms of trade in

:47:29.:47:33.

Westminster, it already has t will help Ed Miliband, particularly with

:47:33.:47:37.

his party base. Because, I think one of the reasons why he went down

:47:37.:47:40.

disastrously, with his party base, was over the strike, and this

:47:40.:47:46.

helped him to rebound. He restored the drop that it had in his numbers.

:47:47.:47:51.

Is that true for the Labour Party, Miliband is saved as the leader, is

:47:51.:47:54.

that good? It has given him a lot of space to talk about the things

:47:54.:47:58.

he needs to, like the economy and health. He will be listened to in a

:47:58.:48:03.

new way. I don't agree with this idea that no-one out there care

:48:03.:48:06.

about this, they really care about education, health and the economy.

:48:06.:48:10.

Of course that is true, but these things are connected. I remember in

:48:10.:48:13.

Government working for Tony Blair, when there was a trust issue about

:48:13.:48:17.

Tony Blair on an issue, on the other issues like health or

:48:18.:48:23.

education, the polling went down. So, in fact, the trust contaminates

:48:23.:48:26.

everything else. That is fair point. Just a minute, my guess is people

:48:27.:48:30.

will look at the economy differently now and cuts, which the

:48:30.:48:34.

Tories have wriggled out so far, because they trust Cameron a bit

:48:34.:48:39.

less. It is true, most don't study the detail of the cuts and what

:48:39.:48:43.

will happen to the NHS. We do think we know something about character,

:48:43.:48:47.

that will be a problem? This has presented itself to most people

:48:47.:48:51.

primarily as an issue about politics, it is primarily an issue

:48:51.:48:54.

about my profession, with journalism and the police. The

:48:54.:48:56.

effect on Cameron will be the misjudgment over Coulson, and

:48:56.:49:00.

people do think that is a misjudgment ta, has affected them.

:49:00.:49:04.

There will be some bleed over, I wouldn't exaggerate it into other

:49:04.:49:09.

issues, there has been a sort of hysteria in Westminster about the

:49:09.:49:12.

political impact this is likely to have in the medium term. It doesn't

:49:12.:49:16.

mean it is not a hugely important issue, people do care. The politics

:49:16.:49:20.

will be very important. significance of this for David

:49:20.:49:26.

Cameron, frankly, is it seems to reinforce his negatives. He is

:49:26.:49:30.

captured, he is a prisoner of his own background. He's seen as the

:49:30.:49:33.

high society, blue-blooded, Conservative, which very rich and

:49:33.:49:37.

powerful friends, who perhaps he is cut off from, who doesn't

:49:37.:49:41.

understand the majority of the country. The pictures of him with

:49:41.:49:45.

Rebekah Brooks and the Murdochs and all the rest of it simply reinforce

:49:45.:49:49.

that, that may be unfair but that is the fact of the matter.

:49:49.:49:53.

doesn't just look cosy in that sense, we heard all the stuff about

:49:53.:49:57.

Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, when Cameron says we are all in it

:49:57.:50:02.

together, do you not think the people in the chip shop is going to

:50:02.:50:07.

say, you are all in this together? The Blair-Murdoch relationship was

:50:07.:50:11.

not a friendship one. I was in the room when Tony Blair said, Rupert

:50:11.:50:15.

Murdoch came a friend of mine. He actually said that. I was there.

:50:15.:50:18.

This is a different one, this is about a set mixing together, this

:50:18.:50:24.

is about them living together, it is about them socialising, they are

:50:24.:50:29.

genuine friends, Rebekah Brooks and David Cameron. In terms of people

:50:29.:50:33.

who meet doing business. I think there was a different relationship.

:50:33.:50:36.

I think Tony Blair, God bless him was genuine in the relationship he

:50:36.:50:40.

had with Rupert Murdoch, he wanted to go after, because he thought

:50:40.:50:43.

that Rupert Murdoch had an understanding of what his readers

:50:43.:50:52.

believed in, and he wanted to show that he was an appeal it him.

:50:52.:50:59.

crucified Neil Kinnock in 1982 so the press being there is not

:50:59.:51:04.

truement I'm struck by a genuine friendship being a bad thing?

:51:04.:51:09.

struck by the phrase "I was in the room", all of these guys were in

:51:09.:51:14.

the room. For many years Liberal Democrats have been patronised and

:51:14.:51:17.

laughed at because they were never in the room, now it is a good thing

:51:17.:51:22.

not to be in the room. That is all from Newsnight tonight, Michelle is

:51:22.:51:25.

here with more tomorrow, good nationwide.

:51:25.:51:35.
:51:35.:51:36.

Hello, if it is warm sunny weather you are after, don't hold your

:51:36.:51:43.

breath. Patience is a virttu, cloud around for many - virtue, cloud

:51:43.:51:50.

around for many of us tomorrow. Scattered showers, some meaty by

:51:50.:51:53.

the afternoon. Wherever you are, disappointingly cool once more,

:51:53.:51:56.

with temperatures stuck in the mid- to high teens for the most part.

:51:56.:52:00.

Difficult to nail down exactly where the showers will occur. The

:52:00.:52:04.

potential is there. That said, across the far South-West of

:52:04.:52:07.

England, there are showers sticking out in sunshine, the west of Wales

:52:08.:52:12.

too. The majority of Wales will be disappointingly cloudy, with bursts

:52:12.:52:15.

of rain developing by the afternoon. On a more optimistic note, Northern

:52:15.:52:19.

Ireland will stay largely dry, with broken cloud and some sunshine.

:52:20.:52:23.

Scotland too. There will be showers, particularly up over the high

:52:23.:52:25.

ground. Many places probably avoiding these and staying dryer

:52:26.:52:30.

than we have seen recently. Looking further ahead, a lot of cloud and

:52:30.:52:34.

further showers rate right the way through to the afternoon.

:52:34.:52:37.

Disappointingly cool across many areas. Chilly nights to come. A

:52:37.:52:41.

similar story further south. Some bright spells but a lot of cloud,

:52:41.:52:47.

and a few showers likely as well. Can you see the extent of a cloud

:52:47.:52:52.

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