Browse content similar to 19/07/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, the buck stops here, with two of the most powerful men in the | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
world, James and Rupert Murdoch, they kept telling MPs they simply | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
didn't know what was really going on in the organisation they run. | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
Nobody in your UK company brought this fact to your attention. No. | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
you think that might be because they thought you might think | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
nothing of it? No. We will pass judgment with the help of a Tory MP | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
from the committee, and two former News of the World reporters. She | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
revealed who head hunted Andy Coulson into Government in the | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
first place. It was George Osborne the Chancellor's idea that when | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
Andy Coulson left the News of the World they should start discussions | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
with him. More on the puzzle of which police chief said what to | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
Downing Street official, as the scandal appears to move nearer to | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
Number Ten. Home Office Minister, Damian Green | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
is here. Are we getting close to Watergate | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
moment, we will ask Earl Spencer, who complained of the press | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
hounding his sister, Princess Diana, Will Self and the Watergate | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
investigator, Carl Bernstein. Good evening, it was billed as the | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
day when the mother of parliaments would finally get to grips with the | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
mother of all scandals. Instead of the what do they know and when did | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
they know it from Watergate, today's hearings were about what | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
James and Rupert Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks claimed they did not | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
know in the organisation they run. Was this a display of openness, or | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
is there a cover-up, if the Murdochs haven't a clue who ordered | :01:41. | :01:51. | |
:01:51. | :01:59. | ||
We start with a committee in London's parliament...Rupert | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
Murdoch has probably done more to change the look and feel of TV news | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
than anyone. His channels often push the boundaries. News of the | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
World is under the microscope today, we will be talking about it a lot. | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
Today, though, a more uncomfortable position at the other end of the | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
lens, in the glare of the beast, he helped create. | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
Rupert Murdoch has arrived at British parliament. Snappers chased | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
Rupert Murdoch as he left his home. Once inside parliament, the | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
snappers were left behind, but in front of him, and his son, two | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
hours of questioning. First of all I would like to say just how sorry | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
I am, and how sorry we are. Murdoch junior began by saying | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
sorry, but as he developed his theme of contrition, and | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
explanation, watch for his father's hands on his arm. I would just like | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
to say, one sentence, this is the most humble day of my life. | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
This was not the media tyrant that some of today's billing had | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
promised, he was more faltering and forgetful than fierce and forensic. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
Were you informed about the findings by hur son Mr Murdoch or | :03:20. | :03:30. | |
:03:30. | :03:33. | ||
by Rebekah Brooks? I forget, but I expect it was my | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
son, I was in daily contact with them both. As his wife sat directly | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
behind him, nudges him to tell him to stop banging the table, Rupert | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
Murdoch explains that many of the details of who knew what and when | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
were below his pay grade. This is not an excuse, maybe it is an | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
explanation, my laxity, the News of the World is less than 1% of our | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
company, I employ 5 3,000 people around the world, who are proud and | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
great and ethical and distinguished people, professionals in their life, | :04:13. | :04:20. | |
and perhaps I'm spread watching and appointing people whom I trust to | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
run those divisions. One thing that we did have | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
confirmed today was that after the News of the World's royal editor, | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Clive Goodman, and the private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, went | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
to prison for phone hacking, News of the World continued to write | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
checks towards the pair's legal fees. James Murdoch told the | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
committee today he didn't know who authorised the payments. I can tell | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
you I was as surprised as you are to find that some of those | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
arrangements had been made. Murdoch senior I seem to be getting | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
further with you, for which I'm grateful, would it have been Les | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
Hinton? Would he have agreed, would he have had to sign that? It could | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
have been. It could have been, would have been or could have been? | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
It could have been. Who else could it have been? The chief legal | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
officer. We got a glimpse today of what it's like to be Rupert Murdoch, | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
Prime Ministers are desperate to see him, and desperate that we | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
don't see him. Why did you enter the back door at Number Ten when | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
you visited the Prime Minister following the last general | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
election? Because I was asked to. You were asked to go in the back | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
door of Number Ten? Yes. Why would that be? To avoid photographers in | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
the front, I don't know, I just did what I was told. It's strange that | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
given heads of state manage to go in the front door. Yes. Yet you | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
have to go in the back door. Yes. I was invited within days to have a | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
cup of tea to be thanked for the support by Mr Cameron. No other | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
conversation took place. It lasted minutes. That was the one you went | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
in through the back door. Yes. I had been asked also by Mr Brown, | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
many times. Through the back door. Yes. | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
And remember Gordon Brown's roaring speech in the Commons saying how he | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
went to war with Rupert Murdoch. Well, that's not quite the version | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
we got today. Did any senior politicians that you are in contact | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
with, or you were in contact with during that period of time, raise | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
this as an issue with that, raise concerns about phone hacking. | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
Absolutely not, the politician I met most was Mr Brown when | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer, his wife and my wife struck up quite a | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
friendship, and our children played together on many occasions. And I'm | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
very sorry that I'm no longer, I felt he had great values, which I | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
shared with him, and I'm sorry that we have come apart, and I hope one | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
day we will be able to put it together again. The confidentiality | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
clause. As the last MP began questioning the Murdochs, there was | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
an attack on Rupert Murdoch, by a member of the public, it would have | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
been worse, had Mr Murdoch's wife not been so quick to his defence. A | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
man was led away in handcuffs, the committee resumed, Mr Murdoch | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
without his splattered jacket, it finished with a prepared statement. | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
I would like all the victims of phone hacking to know how | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
completely and deeply sorry I am. Apologising cannot take back what | :07:31. | :07:38. | |
has happened, still, I want them to know the depth of my regret for the | :07:38. | :07:45. | |
horrible invasion noose their lives. I fully understand their ire, I | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
intend to work tirelessly to merit their forgiveness. The next witness | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
was Rebekah Brooks, until last week the chief executive of News | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
International, and editor of the News of the World, at the time when | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
Milly Dowler's phone was hacked. She told the committee she had no | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
knowledge of what happened. seems incredible that you as the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
editor were so unaware with fundamental issues to do with the | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
investigation. In some ways I think the opposite, I don't know anyone | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
in their right mind who would authorise, know, sanction, approve | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
of, anyone listening to the voicemails of Milly Dowler in those | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
circumstances. I just don't know anyone who would think it was a | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
right and proper thing to do at this time, or at any time, and I | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
know we know a lot more now, but that's all I can tell you. | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
And what of her supposedly cosy relationship with David Cameron, no, | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
she said, she had never been horse riding with the Prime Minister. | :08:47. | :08:57. | |
truth is that he is a neighbour, a friend, but I deem the relationship | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
to be wholly appropriate, and at no time have I ever had any | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
conversation with the Prime Minister that you in the room would | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
disapprove of. A dramatic day has wrapped up in | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
testimony in the News of the World phone hacking scandal. In the end | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
after all that detail and questioning, it all comes down to | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
one question, do you believe the Murdoch account? Absolutely shocked, | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
appalled and ashamed when I heard. Or not. | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
I'm joined now by the former News of the World Glenn Mulcaire, the | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
News of the World former politic - Mr McMullen, and one of the members | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
of the committee who questioned the Murdochs today, Louise Mensch. | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
First of all, were you frustrated that a lot of the answers to the | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
questions were, "I have no knowledge of that", "I don't know | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
what was going on there"? thrust of my questions at the end | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
of the session, after the pie- throwing incident, was to ask the | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
Murdochs if they didn't know, why didn't they know. That was the | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
overarching question that came out of the session. They were clear | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
they didn't know, they hadn't been informed, it seemed strange to me | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
as I asked them, that Mr Murdoch senior had not been informed about | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
such serious wrongdoing at one of his papers. It seemed Tobruk a | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
failure of corporate governance at - to be a failure of corporate | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
governance at News Corp. Was it a failure of governance or did you | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
believe them? I challenged the Murdochs earlier on Newsnight that | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
it would do them good to come before the committee and answer | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
questions in depth, I found their answers mostly convincing w a | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
couple of exceptions. The idea was floated to us that they wouldn't | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
have noticed News of the World because it is such a tiny part of | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
their media operation, that didn't seem credible t may be small in | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
monetary terms, but as we have seen it is huge in reputational terms. | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
That didn't strike me as credible. You put directly to Rupert Murdoch | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
if he took responsibility for this, he said, no, do you accept that? | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
put it to him that he ultimately is the head of the global company, and | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
this happened on his watch, and if other people have considered their | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
positions and resigned, would he consider his position and resign, | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
that was a question that had to be asked of him. And his answer was | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
that he had been too far above it to notice it, he delegated it down, | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
and he could fix the problem. I did challenge the Murdochs, both Rupert | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
and James Murdoch to institute massive review in their newsrooms | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
and properties around the world and they said they would do so. He also | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
said it was down to people that he trusted, and People Like Us they | :11:42. | :11:51. | |
trusted, who are these people, you didn't drill down into that? This | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
is the subject of a judicial and police investigation, when the | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
questions were crafted from committees, we had the speaker from | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
the hoims, and others from the House of Commons posed to Mrs | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
Brooks, we had on a number of questions, not on too many, James | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
Murdoch would say he couldn't answer it because of the police | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
investigation, we were advised by counsel that we couldn't press | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
further because of the police investigation. Did you broadly | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
believe what you heard today? from Rupert, but not from anybody | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
else. I was disappointed, possibly with the exception of yourself, | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
with the quality of the question, they let them get away with, well, | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
just a lot of nonsense, from I thought Rebekah Brooks. Like what? | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
I was disappointed by James Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks, they are still | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
blaming us, they are still blaming the reporters. We did these things | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
for them, we went to the nth degree to get a story. The culture under | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
Rebekah Brooks was you will do anything to get that story. I | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
remember she said to me, I like McMullan, because he would turn | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
over his own grandmother. That was the idea, that was the ethos, you | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
will, where the biggest English language newspaper in the world, | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
and we will remain that by having the best and most ruthless and | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
dedicated reporters. So when they kept saying things like it is | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
people they trusted, maybe people they trusted? He meant Rebekah | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
Brooks probably. What did you think of it? I must take Paul on here, I | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
have worked in executive roles in a number of newspaper, and I have got | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
that pressure. I have had that steely look from the editor on a | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
Thursday morning, what have we got, what we will put on page one, or | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
two, three, four, five, six and seven, this list is rubbish, what | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
will we do it. I don't go out and break the law, we try to get it by | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
proper endeavour and old fashioned journalism, that is what we do. | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
What we saw today, if Paul is saying here that he has been told | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
by Rebekah Brooks to hack a phone, you know, say it. It was a bit more | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
subtle, certainly, as we know, there were two whistle-blowers in | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
this, one is now dead, amazingly and tragically, I was the other one, | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
so it could be worse, I'm still here, but no, it was more coded | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
language. When there was a big story breaking and it was getting | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
towards Friday, and you really had to bring it in, Rebekah Brooks | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
would either use the phrase "you must make it work ". There you are, | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
use any means possible? Nobody has ever said that to me. They say | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
there is a story you have to make a story by getting the facts, going | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
out and meeting contacts. From the horse's mouth on the answer phone. | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
It never crossed my mind, those thrown out of work because of | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
things people like you have done, and be smerpblged the name of a | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
good paper. You - You work in the lobby, it is a different world. | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
have been a news reporter as well. It is different pressures than the | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
world he has been in? I have been a news editor, running a team. Let me | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
bring in Tina Brown, you are an editor, one of the questions where | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
they did seem to get traction today was following the money. What we | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
did find out was the legal fees of Mulcaire and Goodman were part paid | :15:21. | :15:31. | |
:15:31. | :15:33. | ||
by News International, do you think this should be followed up, because | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
somebody somewhere must have signed off the cash somewhere? One of the | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
most humorous things I found was neither of them had any knowledge | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
of who it was that directed these cheques to be signed. Which just | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
didn't seem credible to me. It is the most evil-smelling aspect of | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
this case that smulsmul, the hackers continued to have their - | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
Mulcaire, the hackers, continued to have their legal fees paid, after | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
doing something they claimed to be so abhorrent. It was Mulcaire | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
hacking into the phone of Milly Dowler. On the one hand they are | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
saying it is abhorrent, but on the other hand they are paying his | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
legal fees still, that seemed to be the most rich area of obvious | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
weakness in their case. What about the general principle of I didn't | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
know, didn't ask, I wasn't told, it was a small part of my business? | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
is odd to me, obviously Rupert is right he has an enormous company. | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
15 2,000. I do think he used to be far more involved in the British | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
papers than today, in the past very much involved, now, he's far more | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
engrossed in the American aspect of his company, it is where he lives | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
and socialises, it is where his wife is involved, and his biggest | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
business interests are, at the same time, he does remain very | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
interested in stories, it is the fun part, in a sense, of his life. | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
When he, I think Philip Davies said, what do you say when you call the | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
News of the World editor, he said yes he called him on Saturday night | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
and I would ask what's doing, have you a good story for tomorrow. The | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
truth is the next question he would normally ask is how did you get it. | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
Because Rupert is actually interested in the process of | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
journalism. To me it doesn't ring true that he would was - that he | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
was such a disinterested Monarch. He's interested in stories, how | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
they are got, who they are doing over, and what is the method, he's | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
interested in that kind of stuff, that surprised me. One further | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
thought, in terms of how this will go down on Wall Street, how this | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
will go down in confidence in his kblt to steer the Murdoch empire in | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
the future, what do you make of that? It is all down to the foreign, | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
the Corruption Act, the foreign practices Corruption Act that is | :17:52. | :18:01. | |
the thing in play. If anyone can show that the News of the World | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
hacked into an American citizen on American soil, they were very | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
slippery on the 9/11 question, did anyone hack into the 9/11 victim, I | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
didn't think James was as solid in his answer as I would have thought | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
he would be, that would be a big problem if proven. I think Rupert | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
will hang on to his company, not sure what will happen to James. In | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
this story the shoes keep dropping, something incredible could happen | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
tomorrow. As shore shoe here, everybody seems to agree - another | :18:37. | :18:44. | |
shoe here, everybody seems to think Rupert has news in his veins, it is | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
inconceivable he would not ask questions? A lot of newspapers is | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
delegating. I don't report to my editor where I get my stories from, | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
the editor wouldn't talk up to him on how he's managing the paper, it | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
just difs him the broad brush stuff. - Gives him the broad brush stuff. | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Rupert Murdoch was the only one that defended journalism, saying it | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
made society better. I thought he would say sometimes it is justified | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
to hack into a corrupt MP's phone, and just talking to the common man, | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
I always ask the taxi driver on the way in, he said it was outrageous | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
that our boys are being sent home in body bags from Afghanistan and | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
we still have politicians with their trousers round their ankles, | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
you should carry on hacking into their phones. I take it you don't | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
agree? I don't think the public expect a policeman to be bribed. I | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
don't think anyone thinks the law should be broken on account of | :19:43. | :19:51. | |
these, most of the time, pretty frivolous hackings. Just to mention, | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
were you kind of disappointed you didn't get to the bottom of it? | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
got all the answers we were going to get given there is a judicial | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
inquiry, and in the case of Rebekah Brooks an on going active police | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
investigation. I think we exposed what needed to be exposed, the on | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
going payments of legal fees to Glenn Mulcaire and asked the | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
questions people wanted to hear, have you hacked the 9/11 phones, | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
have you considered resigning, these questions were put directly | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
to the owners of News Corp. That, I think, was extremely important. | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
What interested me was the way Mr Murdoch said "we have a free | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
society", he was referring, although he's technically an | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
American, he was referring to Britain, when he contrasted us to | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
the United States, he said we are society in contrast to the American | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
society, of which he is a citizen. So I think he take as lively | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
interest, it may be one of the reasons he agreed to testify to | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
parliament today. As usual with this story, it was | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
multidimensional, beyond the Murdochs and the former News of the | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
World editor, Rebekah Brooks, we also heard from Sir John Stevens, | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
on what was probably his last day as chief of the Metropolitan Police. | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
Another strand to the web of relationships between the former | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
News of the World journalists and people in power, the Conservative | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
Party confirmed that the PR adviser to Sir Paul, Neil Wallis, was on | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
informal advisor to David Cameron's chief, Andy Coulson, before the | :21:15. | :21:25. | |
:21:25. | :21:25. | ||
last election. We unpick the police We heard today from three key | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
police witnesses, commissioner Sir John Stevens who resigned at the | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
weekend. Dick Fedorcio head of the media department, and Assistant | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
Commissioner, John Yates, who resigned yesterday. All three are | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
Commisssion. Making sense of the tens of thousands of words of | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
evidence made today, requires an understanding of the kind of | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
hypothesis being pursued by MPs. It runs something like this, News of | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
the World journalists were paying corrupt police officers for | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
information, and their bosses at News of the World knew all about it | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
and helped cover it up. Police officers themselves were in awe of | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
their relationships with News of the World executives and this | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
coloured their judgment and led them to pull their punches on the | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
investigation, effectively letting the Murdoch empire off the hook. | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
That's the can conspiracy theory, but to what extent did evidence | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
heard today support those ideas? Much of the controversy today | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
concerns the Met's relationship with this man, Neil Wallis, former | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
News of the World deputy editor. After leaving News of the World, Mr | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Wallis set up a freelance PR business, and was taken on by the | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
Metropolitan Police as an advisor, he was paid �1,000 a day for 24 | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
days work, by the Department of Public affairs, or the DPA, over to | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
the commissioner. Mr Lisence Luis was never employed to be my | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
personal a- Mr Wallis was never employed to be my personal | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
assistant or give personal advice to me. He was employed to provide | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
advice to the head of the DPA, you will see later on, through that he | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
would give me occasional advice. A very part-time minor role. | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
Wallis was also advising the luxury Champneys Health Spa, the | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
commissioner accepted thousands of pounds of free hospitality there | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
while recuperating from an operation, he says it has been | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
declared but not registered yet. When I heard Mr Wallis was | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
connected with Champneys, that was a difficult story, it was | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
unfortunate for me, I had no knowledge previously. That, | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
together with everything else, I thought this will be a significant | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
story, it will continue. committee member found it | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
incredible that no-one had told the commissioner that Mr Wallis was | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
also working for Champneys? only way we would know that is if | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
Mr Wallis had declared it to someone. I had no way of knowing he | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
was connected to Champneys. With 45 press officers already in the Met, | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
why did they need an ex-hack from News of the World to help them any | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
way. Who recommended Mr Wallis to you, you say you had a | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
recommendation before you took him on? I was trying to think, in mid- | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
August I discovered that he was now working independently. Was it | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
someone from the News of the World, or News International? I honestly | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
can't recall who said it. You can't recall, despite the scrutiny on | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
this matter, and despite having given it careful consideration, you | :24:23. | :24:30. | |
can't recall who suggested that you hire Mr Wallis, was it Rebekah | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
Brooks? Certainly not. You needed an extra consultant, were you | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
consulted before he was appointed. I was, just let me say, with the | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
benefit of what we know now, I'm happy to put on the record, I | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
regret the contract, clearly, it is embarrassing. You knew Mr Yates was | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
a personal friend of Mr Wallis. But you still relied on Mr Yates to | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
give you the all-clear to employ Mr Wallis? I accept the integrity of | :24:59. | :25:07. | |
Mr Yates, he's a senior officer in the organisation. What about your | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
integrity as someone who needs to show due diligence in signing off | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
this contract. John Yates said he only sought personal assurances and | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
denied this amounted to the kind of detailed checks the committee said | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
the head of media had suggested. think that slightly overegging the | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
pudding. To put it mildly. I did what I considered, and it wasn't | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
due diligence in the due diligence sense. I sought assurances off Mr | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
Wallis, before the contract was let, to the effect. I have a note, I can | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
read from it if you like. Is there anything in the matters that Nick | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
Davies is still chasing and reporting on, that could at any | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
stage embarrass you Mr Wallis, the commissioner and the head of the | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
Metropolitan Police, I received catagoric assurances that was the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
case. The most dramatic moment was when John Yates revealed he had | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
offered to brief the Prime Minister on hacking but was told not to go | :26:10. | :26:18. | |
ahead by an official? The official was the Chief-of-Staff. | :26:18. | :26:28. | |
:26:28. | :26:54. | ||
The Government released a statement tonight confirming that the cabinet | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
secretary had seen the exchange of e-mails and believed that the | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
Chief-of-Staff acted entirely properly, so the verdict from today, | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
well the grand conspiracy theory is certainly not proven, but there was | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
evidence which revealed some highly questionable judgment calls made by | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
some of the most senior officers in the police. And ultimately, that's | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
why they had to go. I'm joined by Newsnight's political | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
editor, Michael Cirk, what did we learn today? After goodness knows | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
how many hours of testimony on two different committees, not a huge | :27:26. | :27:33. | |
amount. It was high and memorable drama. A huge day for the select | :27:33. | :27:42. | |
committee, the stand out image is that of a two - of the two Murdochs, | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
and Rupert Murdoch came across as faltering and forgetful, he was the | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
absent-minded grandfather in the corner. James performed, in the | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
circumstances, rather well, I think this is probably, symbolising the | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
shift of shower within that organisation. It was also | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
interesting that they relied very little on their lawyers and the | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
fact that there was Anam going police investigation. David Cameron | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
is - There was an on going police investigation. David Cameron will | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
be in the Commons tomorrow, what does he need to do to get a grip on | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
it? It is a big day, he's flying back from Africa, he has to make | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
three speeches tomorrow. First of all he's doing a statement to the | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Commons, in that statement he will be giving some of the names on the | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
judicial inquiry, and some of the more details of the remit of the | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
inquiry. He's then got to make a speech opening the debate, and then | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
making a speech to the 1922 Committee, who are a bit annoyed | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
that he seems to have snubbed them over the last few days. He has been | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
busily doing drafts of the speech on the plane back from Nigeria. | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
Interestingly, also, on the plane back from Nigeria, Mr Cameron's | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
aides were drawing attention to the evidence from Rebekah Brooks in her | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
testimony today, that it wasn't her idea that Andy Coulson should go | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
and work in Downing Street, but it was George Osborne's idea. | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
Interesting that David Cameron's aide should draw attention to that. | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
But but I think David Cameron's biggest problem at the moment is he | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
hasn't a huge amount of support from his party at the moment, | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
either from backbenchers or members of the cabinet. How many have come | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
out backing them. Boris Johnson today came out more strongly. The | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
whips have been doing quite an operation tonight to try to | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
persuade people to talk in tomorrow's debate. It is a struggle | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
because a lot of MPs have gone on their holidays already. What is the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
significance between the e-mails between Ed Llewellyn and ACC John | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
Yates? That is a potential problem for David Cameron. The Downing | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
Street line is this shows our integrity, we didn't want to be | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
briefed by John Yates, we didn't want to be accused of interfering | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
in the police operation. On the other hand, Yvette Cooper,ed shadow | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
Home Secretary, says this is deeply troubling, this is the second | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
incidence of Ed Llewellyn blocking information from being passed to | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
David Cameron about this affair. But Ed Llewellyn was backed by Andy | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
Hayman, the permanent secretary in Number Ten, and tonight he's backed | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
by the cabinet secretary, Gus O'Donnell. Just on that point, why | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
is it important to keep the Prime Minister in ignorance? It is not | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
keeping him in ignorance, it is making sure that nothing | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
inappropriate happens. That he doesn't know things? Ed Llewellyn | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
had to make a judgment koul, there was a police operation going on, | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
John Yates said do you want me to discuss the language, if there is a | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
police investigation going on, politicians shouldn't be involved | :30:47. | :30:57. | |
:30:57. | :31:00. | ||
in can he tail. Ed Llewellyn had a judgment call to make and he got it | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
absolutely right. Excuse me, why is it then that the Chief-of-Staff to | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
the Prime Minister writes in such coded terms, "on the other matters | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
that have caught your attention, assuming we are thinking of the | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
same thing, don't tell the Prime Minister" what's that all about? | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
That is what John Yates said. In fact, you cut what the actually, if | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
you read the full e-mail, John Yates was coming in to brief the | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
Prime Minister about a very, very important skurtd issue, that was | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
the main point. He then said do you want me to talk about these other | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
things. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, why did they talk like that? | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
Llewellyn said no, it wouldn't aib proper rate. Why is it in code? | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
They both knew what they were talking about. Assuming we are | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
thinking of the same thing, it was a code, nudge and a wink, they felt | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
there was something wrong here, it fails the Prime Minister's own | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
smell test? No it doesn't. What it does is Ed Llewellyn making it | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
clear that to have a conversation with a police officer about the | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
details or nuances as John Yates put it, of an operational matter, | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
it would not be appropriate for politicians to get involved. That | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
was one of the basic principles, that when a police investigation is | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
going on the police should control it. It is not plausible? As someone | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
arrested in my time, it is a distinction that politicians | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
shouldn't interfere in police investigations. Is Has that changed | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
your view being arrested and exonerated? I'm not an uncritical | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
admirer of those who used to run the Met. One of the more serious | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
thing, other than the media, which is in serious crisis is making sure | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
we get the Met back on an even keel. That is really important for all of | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
us. Do you think it was appropriate for Neil Wallis to advise Andy | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
Coulson, while Mr Coulson worked for David Cameron? I don't know | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
what an informal advisor is, I know the Conservative Party didn't pay | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
money to Mr Wallis, didn't employ him, didn't have him on a contract, | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
or a consultant. So if he phoned Coulson up, he phoned Andy Coulson | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
up, nobody else senior in the campaign had any knowledge that Mr | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
Wallis was involved at all. It is a symptom, isn't it, of the cosy | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
relationships that were going on by two people who fell under | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
suspicious, and both of whom have been arrested? But what it doesn't | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
prove is anything about the Conservative Party, the | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
Conservative Party didn't have Mr Wallis. It talk about the judgment | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
of people talking the judgments recorded in the Metropolitan Police, | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
that Wallis was an appropriate person to employ, and Andy Coulson | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
was an appropriate person to employ. There is a difference that | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
obviously the Metropolitan Police are investigating Mr Wallis, | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
therefore, it was clearly inappropriate to have him on the | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
payroll, where Andy Coulson's case is completely different. He gave | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
the Prime Minister assurances he did nothing wrong, he repeated them | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
in court and to a select committee. It is not unreasonable for the | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
Prime Minister to believe those assurances. It was George Osborne's | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
idea and a great idea? That is known for some time. Andy Coulson | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
did a great job in his time as press officer. And George Osborne | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
deserves all the credit for the God thaing that Coulson has done? | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
Coulson did a good job working for David Cameron. We will find out, | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
and there is a police investigation going on, what happened over phone | :34:28. | :34:36. | |
hacking. Who else's phone has been hacked, has the Prime Minister's | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
phone been hacked? I don't know, all this was happening years ago, | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
and the previous Government did nothing about it. What is happening | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
now is we have not only got a police investigation, but a judge- | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
led inquiry into the way newspapers operate. As they sieve through the | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
numbers you must figure that out? I'm a politician I don't get | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
involved in individual police operations, this is the very strong | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
principle, if the police are conducting a criminal investigation, | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
they should do that properly on their own. They should not be | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
interfered with at every stage by politicians, that is the basic | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
correct decision that Ed Llewellyn took. Thank you very much. | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
Now the event itself, the sight of two of the most powerful men in the | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
world, and one of the most powerful women, answering questions about | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
the world's most powerful media empire was not something we would | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
see in Britain often. As a piece of theatre, it might have reminded | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
people of the Watergate scandal and even the Lewinsky affair. We | :35:41. | :35:51. | |
:35:51. | :35:56. | ||
analyse the impact of what we saw Summer, festivals, show time, the | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
smell of the grease paint and the roar of the burgers, think about it. | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
But if you are a Newsnight viewer, and let as say you are, hanging | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
about in the chillout tent, to catch some of the original line-up | :36:10. | :36:18. | |
of the Inpiral Carpets, doesn't cut it. The season had little to match | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
the prospect of Murdochs and Rebekah Brooks appearing before the | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
committee. In the long hot summer we are having, today's | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
parliamentary session promised to be like a rock festival. Like a | :36:30. | :36:40. | |
:36:40. | :36:43. | ||
parliamentary session cranked up to But did the line-up live up to all | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
the hype, how did it shape up as an event what did it tell us, if | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
anything b the state of our institutions? First question, did | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
it cut it as drama? Rupert Murdoch is a bit like King Lear, he has | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
hived off his kingdom to other people, and is rather surprised by | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
how that has turned out. The tension between James Murdoch and | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
Elizabeth Murdoch is one of the stories, another is the sense in | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
which Rebekah Brooks is a kind of surrogate daughter for Murdoch, you | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
have the three children, like in King Lear, and the slightly | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
unexpected fishering that comes about as a result of that. | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
claimed in the Wall Street Journal that Harbottle & Lewis had made a | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
major mistake, can I ask what mistake you were referring to? | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
of the things about courtroom drama is there is always an unexpected | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
hero, a quiet man, in this incidence it was Tom Watson. One of | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
the other features was the long pauses, pauses in theeure tend to | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
be associated with Chekhov, and Harold Pointer, these pauses were | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
self-indulgent and even beyond that point. Extraordinary we wills of | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
silence. We spoke to a lawyer that worked for Robert Maxwell's sons | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
who faced MPs in the 1990s, what moment stood out for him today? | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
me the most electrifying moment would be James trying to explain | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
why the company was paying Mulcaire's legal fees, and having | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
to wriggle on the situation that clearly it has been paying his fees | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
up until recently, and trying to find some rational for justifying | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
it and failing miserably in that way. I do know that certain legal | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
fees were paid for Mr Mulcaire by the company and I was as surprised | :38:32. | :38:40. | |
and shocked to learn that as you are. That was the one moment when | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
he was really down, other than that they didn't land any real punches | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
on him. Was Rupert Murdoch's appearance calculated to garner | :38:50. | :38:58. | |
sympathy. Mr Blair visited you half way around the world. He what? | :38:58. | :39:05. | |
visited you half way around the world. Before the 1997 election? | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
That was something Mr Cameron or Campbell arranged. It would be a | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
strategy to go to Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful mogul in the | :39:15. | :39:22. | |
world, and say we think you should come across as a shambling, falters, | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
semi-deaf old geezer? I think the idea of portraying him as a | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
Simpson-like Mr Burns character, would be a job too far. | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
wouldn't like to sell that to him? I certainly wouldn't walk into the | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
room and say hi, I have great strategy here, we will send you in | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
like some dithering old fool and fumbling around the crisis is. | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
is just the way he is, perhaps then? If this has shown us one | :39:48. | :39:58. | |
:39:58. | :39:58. | ||
thing, it has shone a light on to the McKiss Mo of that - machismo of | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
this organisation, that isn't as forceful as you would have thought | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
it was. The shares rose today, for many days, and recently, the News | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
Corp shares have suffered a discount, because people felt that | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
Rupert Murdoch was past his best. If he left, then the shares could | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
rise even further. As with every festival there is the | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
sobering feeling that the party is over, but the cleaning may take a | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
while yet. Joining us now from New York is | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
Carl Bernstein who with Bob Woodward broke the story of | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
Watergate. The former chairman of the BBC and ITV, Will Self, writer, | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
and TV producer Daisy Goodwin, who also writes for the Times, first | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
Earl Spencer, the brother of Princess Diana, and giving his | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
first interview on the phone hacking scandal. You had some hopes | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
on press reform going back a long time, any hope today? I had no high | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
hopes today, I thought they would be briefed well enough to get | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
through the questions from, frankly, hampered inquisitors, because they | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
are dealing against the backdrop of a legal inquiry and other things. | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
Not many punches were landed, I don't think any great progress was | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
made. Did you feel at least it was a big moment, did you feel things | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
were changing? I hope so, I'm an optimist, and I think if they don't | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
change on the back of what has been happening in the last few weeks, so | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
we get a more accountable and summonsable press, and one not | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
capable of being accused of corruption and criminal acts, non- | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
when we are. What has been, over the years, the affect on you and | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
your family? Pretty massive, I'm not here to whinge at all. I have | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
chose to live abroad with my young children to get away from tabloid | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
intrusion, this is much more a case not about people like myself who | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
can move abroad, it is about people who may be rolled over by the press | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
unexpectedly in their lives. It is a Titanic force. I have the means | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
to take any action I want against newspapers or other media outlet | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
that is overstep the mark. I hope what comes out of this is not just | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
News International, but other groups resorting to the same | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
methods, which I know they have been. It is not just them, you are | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
sure about that? I'm sure there are other newspaper groups waiting for | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
the spotlight to move to them. I know that without a doubt. So so | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
the fact is we may be looking at the Murdochs being put before an | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
inquisition today, but my hope is that we can purge the whole system, | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
not control the press in way they can't do the responsible job of | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
proper journalism, such as the journalism which has unearthed what | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
is going on and brought us to this stage in this process, but which | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
can make the press accountable for their actions and less likely to | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
overstep the mark. But did you feel, when you were watching this today, | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
did you feel any sympathy at all for Rupert Murdoch? I always feel | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
sorry for man well past his prime, and who is obviously struggling at | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
times. I had to keep reminding myself this is a man who has | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
actually taken large swathes of the British media down a certain root | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
and has not, as a result, and done things that are not great. What do | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
you think of the implication for David Cameron on this, it touches | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
him in various ways too? I know very little about this, the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
political side. But I imagine anyone who is touched by these | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
implications in a meaningful way will have a lot to answer for. What | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
is very exciting for me, as somebody sitting on the sidelines | :43:46. | :43:54. | |
and there has been been as an occasional tabloid punch bag. What | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
is exciting for me is everything gets it now. There has been a | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
guilty little secret among politicians and newspaper providers | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
and a lot of celebrities and others, that this goes on. Phone hacking | :44:06. | :44:13. | |
and worse, a purlioning of medical records and so on. It is only now | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
that it has become a major issues, because of the terrible hacking | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
into a dead girl's phone, Milly Dowler. These have taken it into a | :44:22. | :44:31. | |
different areana that, I hope we will all have a better press in ten | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
years time. How important is in moment for the British and Murdoch | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
organisation? I think this is a huge event in the history of the | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
west, particularly the English speaking world. What we saw today | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
is really evidence of the sad tale of what has happened to modern | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
Great Britain, and how one man has been able to capture the political | :44:52. | :44:59. | |
system, the media and the cops of a great nation, over a generation or | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
two. It is appalling. The one thing that the Earl is right about is | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
certainly that people are now on to what this is about, which is a | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
semi-criminal pre, at the bottom of, the sewer level, - press, at the | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
pot tomorrow, the sewer level of journalism. As opposed to decent | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
institutions in the British and American press. We are talking | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
about the sewer, and the terrible thing about this, is the British | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
public has lapped it up. Just as much as the American public has | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
lapped up this kind of tabloid journalism, perhaps not as extreme. | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
Other journalists have stood by and said this is perfectly fine, we | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
will understand, wink and laugh at it, then you realise this is a | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
terrible business and a whole country has been polluted by the | :45:53. | :46:00. | |
people that we saw up there today. Do you think, as it has been called | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
on Twitter, "hackgate", same as Watergate, is it really a moment of | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
change like that? For almost 40 years, I have winced every time the | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
Murdoch press has particularly appended a "gate" to anything else. | :46:18. | :46:27. | |
A few days ago I wrote a piece for the newspaper saying Murdoch's | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
Watergate speculation. Such as what are the similarities? First of all, | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
it is about the corruption an institution, just as Nixon | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
corrupted his White House, his administration, Murdoch has | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
corrupted the press under his watch, the low end of his empire. Now we | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
are looking for a smoking gun, just as we were in Watergate, we don't | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
need a smoking gun to know what kind of aura existed at News of the | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
World, and other publications. Also I think there is something that | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
this is not just about Murdoch's papers, as Murdoch went deeper into | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
the gutter, in terms of the lowest descending common denominator in | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
journalism, with his publications, others followed suit, just as they | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
did in this country, when the New York Post started to go down. | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
Let me put it to Will Self, do you see this as a Watergate moment, a | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
huge moment of change because it is so awful? I would like to believe | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
it is some kind of moment in change that way. I would certainly agree | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
with Carl, what this represents is a kind of corruption of the British | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
political system, and I thought one of the most telling things that | :47:38. | :47:45. | |
Murdoch said today was when he leaned over to the MPs facing him | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
and said Singapore, as far as he was concerned was the most open | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
society in the world, because every MP was on a million dollars. That | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
got a laugh from the assembled MPs. What I saw there was the arch | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
apostle of envy in our culture, that is the culture that Murdoch | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
has introduced. Everything flows from a more devisive society, and a | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
more envious culture. Even when Yates and Stephenson of the yard | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
were up there giving evidence to the home affairs committee, that | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
was about envy too. You have been involved in the big | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
media organisations, the Press Complaints Commission, do you share | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
any of this optimisim that Earl Spencer and Will Self was talking | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
about there? I think we have to remember the hard cases | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
investigated go back a few years, any journalist today knows that if | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
they start hacking or trying to get stories by criminal means they will | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
go to jail. The law of the land is stronger than any regulator can | :48:47. | :48:55. | |
possibly be. That alone is pretty salry. I didn't mean - All salutery. | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
I didn't mean to say I'm optimistic about where this is going and it is | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
going to reform politics in the English speaking world or | :49:06. | :49:16. | |
:49:16. | :49:17. | ||
journalism in the English speaking world, I wish I had that optimisim. | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
David, as a big moment, did you think, some people tuning in today | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
in the hope of seeing some kind of hanging didn't they? This is the | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
story that keeps on giving, they did not get the hanging but they | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
did get the custard pie. That was an extraordinary moment. It | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
delivered wonderfully in TV terms, as a TV producer, I thought the | :49:39. | :49:46. | |
relationship between Rupert and James was fascinating, Wendi behind. | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
Rupert's pauses were extraordinary, Pointeresque. There was a moment | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
when he said, when Rupert Murdoch stuck up for investigative | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
journalism, I thought it was a wonderful irony, it is | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
investigative journalism on the part of Nick Davies and the | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
Guardian ended up with him sitting in front of the select committee. | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
Do you feel any sympathy for Rupert Murdoch today? As a woman and | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
person, yes I did. I have not met him, I have written for the Sunday | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
Times, I don't know if I can say I feel sympathy for him. I thought at | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
the beginning he looked confused, and he looked extremely | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
uncomfortable, I thought might be. I thought there was a moment where | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
I was watching it with a group of people in my office, and the | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
pendulum was swinging towards him. It is a very unusual experience for | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
Rupert Murdoch and the sire of the family to be accountable in that | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
public fashion. This is not a scenario Rupert Murdoch would be | :50:46. | :50:55. | |
used to. He's used to qutable to share holders, he has the votes so | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
just listens to them. The thing that would have got News Corp | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
completely out of the woods by now, if they had gripped this from the | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
beginning, as soon as the phone hacking incident came to light. If | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
they had called in independent investigators, forensic detectives | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
from the outside, and saying they know there is one case are there | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
any more. And they have done everything they can to dripfeed and | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
avoid the difficult questions. I don't agree, Murdoch's whole career | :51:25. | :51:35. | |
:51:35. | :51:36. | ||
has been based, he started, his idea was he's a rank outsider and | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
anti-establishmentarium, he published Christine Keeler's | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
memoirs. He's the back stoor establishment, nonetheless he's the | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
establishment. His placeman is beside the Prime Minister's side, | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
another one beside the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, there | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
is a degree of solution in this story that is phenomenal, what is | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
the access here is around the BSkyB deal. In fact, that smelt to high | :52:04. | :52:14. | |
:52:14. | :52:18. | ||
heaven. There is a Cinergy between that and the hacking issue - - the | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
synergy between that and the hacking issue. | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
Do you think those who invest or otherwise will be facted today? | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
think this - affected today? I think this will depend on popular | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
will. If ordinary people express themselves and say enough of this | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
kind of journalism, that will get through to the board of the | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
directors, that will get through to the British political establishment. | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
I think that's ultimately where it lies. I think one of the things we | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
ought to look at today, is one of the absolutely incredible things we | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
heard today is, that whatever conspiracy there was, it probably | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
goes on because the criminals are still being paid. They are still | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
receiving money from under a legal agreement in which they are bound | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
not to talk, and one of them wants to talk, apparently, and cannot. | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
This is an extraordinary thing. me bring in Earl Spencer again, as | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
the optimist on the panel, perhaps the only one. Why do you feel that | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
things are changing now, when they didn't after what you said at | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
Diana's funeral, that everybody remembers, you made similar points | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
then, about the hounding by the press? Yes, I think Carl Bernstein | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
is right there, in his minimal optimisim, you know, it is up to | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
the public to change. I don't know whether they have the appetite to | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
change. I think though there is a revulsion which I haven't seen for | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
14 years against the worst excesses of the tabloids. But actually, the | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
worst excesses of the tabloids have been some what neutered now. No | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
politician can provide the figleaf of respect bltd for it to continue. | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
No mainstream high level politician can be seen supping with the | :54:04. | :54:12. | |
Murdochs again. The great dilemma here, whilst there is public anti- | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
pathy towards Rupert Murdoch per se, they still love his products, the | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
News of the World was the best- selling newspaper this country, and | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
the Sun the best selling tabloid. Some how the public feel that they | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
don't like people wielding political influence, when they | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
haven't got any votes. Do you see, you referred to the | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
relationship he found interesting between father and son today. Do | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
you think this is the break-up of the great empire that the dynasty | :54:43. | :54:50. | |
will be not handed on in the way they thought? It is hard to saying, | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
every word Rupert said mattered. It seemed to me James Murdoch talked a | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
lot, I can't really remember what he said. I thought that was quite | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
an interesting thing. He said I didn't know that. He said often it | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
is a very good question, I'm glad you asked that. What about Rebekah | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
Brooks? Again I had sympathy for her. She's a woman under enormous | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
pressure. I think she has been maybe rightly vilified, but she has | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
certainly been vilified not just as an editor, but also a woman. If I | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
see another reference to her hair, which is magnificent, but it is | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
just hair, I feel there has been too much of that, and there has | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
been less talk about what she actually did as an editor. Do you | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
have any sympathy for her? depends if she has been made a fall | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
guy or whether she's responsible. Right now, I think the jury is open. | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
I'm withholding sympathy. Did you have any dealings with her? I did, | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
I had dealings with her when the front page of a Sun was inaccurate | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
and damaging, she was very helpful and offered no help or redress | :56:05. | :56:12. | |
whatsoever. That was her speciality. As a company, does News | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
International or News Corp need the Murdochs? As Carl pointed out, the | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
institutional sharehold remembers the people who will count on that, | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
we all know what the fault line is in the states. My impression is | :56:24. | :56:32. | |
that James, everybody is grasping for the Shakespearian analogy, is | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
he Cordelia or Reagan? My impression is that Rupert Murdoch | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
isn't all together happy with the idea of James's success, that is | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
what Rebekah was about, she was the surrogate in that way. I think you | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
are going to see the strong arm of corporate governance finally | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
imposed on News Corp and News International companies. The broad | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
structures are not compliant with best practice corporate governors. | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
We have to leave it there, we have run out of time completely. | :57:07. | :57:17. | |
:57:17. | :57:17. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds | :57:17. | :58:12. | |
That's all from nice night tonight, we will leave you with | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
extraordinary pictures from a documentary shown on BBC One | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
earlier, of a scientist trying to get a lava sample from the volcanic | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
lake in the Great Rift Valley. We are not sure how they got a close- | :58:26. | :58:36. | |
:58:36. | :59:03. | ||
up shot, but everyone lived to tell Good evening, parts of north-east | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
England and south-east Scotland will continue to see heavy rain | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
into the night and the morning. A wet day towards the far South-West. | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
Elsewhere a largely dry start, brightness here and there, but | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
plenty of cloud a few showers developing. For the north and | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
north-east of England, as well as the borders of Scotland, we will | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
continue with the thundery downpour, risk of flooding. Parts of Greater | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
Manchester, dry and bright. The south-east and southern counties, | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
after a reasonably bright start, we will see showers through the day. | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
Devon and Cornwall will turn dryer, as will parts of South Wales. | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
Brightness breaking towards the clouds towards western coasts and | :59:39. | :59:44. | |
across the north. The wind light, getting in the sunshine it will | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
feel warm. The breeze developing in Northern Ireland will make it | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
cooler, largely dry with some occasional sunshine. Into Scotland | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
western areas, dry and bright, more cloud further east, it is the | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
south-east where we will see the heaviest of the rain. To take us | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
from Wednesday into Thursday, we will see some heavy showers around, | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
not a huge amount of change to be honest. Further south a different | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
picture, we have the cloudy conditions on Wednesday, outbreaks | :00:08. | :00:14. | |
of rain, Thursday, though, a greater risk of some heavy and | :00:14. | :00:18. |