19/07/2011 Newsnight


19/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, the buck stops here, with two of the most powerful men in the

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world, James and Rupert Murdoch, they kept telling MPs they simply

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didn't know what was really going on in the organisation they run.

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Nobody in your UK company brought this fact to your attention. No.

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you think that might be because they thought you might think

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nothing of it? No. We will pass judgment with the help of a Tory MP

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from the committee, and two former News of the World reporters. She

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revealed who head hunted Andy Coulson into Government in the

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first place. It was George Osborne the Chancellor's idea that when

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Andy Coulson left the News of the World they should start discussions

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with him. More on the puzzle of which police chief said what to

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Downing Street official, as the scandal appears to move nearer to

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Number Ten. Home Office Minister, Damian Green

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is here. Are we getting close to Watergate

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moment, we will ask Earl Spencer, who complained of the press

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hounding his sister, Princess Diana, Will Self and the Watergate

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investigator, Carl Bernstein. Good evening, it was billed as the

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day when the mother of parliaments would finally get to grips with the

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mother of all scandals. Instead of the what do they know and when did

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they know it from Watergate, today's hearings were about what

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James and Rupert Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks claimed they did not

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know in the organisation they run. Was this a display of openness, or

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is there a cover-up, if the Murdochs haven't a clue who ordered

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:01:51.:01:59.

We start with a committee in London's parliament...Rupert

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Murdoch has probably done more to change the look and feel of TV news

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than anyone. His channels often push the boundaries. News of the

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World is under the microscope today, we will be talking about it a lot.

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Today, though, a more uncomfortable position at the other end of the

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lens, in the glare of the beast, he helped create.

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Rupert Murdoch has arrived at British parliament. Snappers chased

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Rupert Murdoch as he left his home. Once inside parliament, the

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snappers were left behind, but in front of him, and his son, two

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hours of questioning. First of all I would like to say just how sorry

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I am, and how sorry we are. Murdoch junior began by saying

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sorry, but as he developed his theme of contrition, and

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explanation, watch for his father's hands on his arm. I would just like

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to say, one sentence, this is the most humble day of my life.

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This was not the media tyrant that some of today's billing had

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promised, he was more faltering and forgetful than fierce and forensic.

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Were you informed about the findings by hur son Mr Murdoch or

:03:20.:03:30.
:03:30.:03:33.

by Rebekah Brooks? I forget, but I expect it was my

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son, I was in daily contact with them both. As his wife sat directly

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behind him, nudges him to tell him to stop banging the table, Rupert

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Murdoch explains that many of the details of who knew what and when

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were below his pay grade. This is not an excuse, maybe it is an

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explanation, my laxity, the News of the World is less than 1% of our

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company, I employ 5 3,000 people around the world, who are proud and

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great and ethical and distinguished people, professionals in their life,

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and perhaps I'm spread watching and appointing people whom I trust to

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run those divisions. One thing that we did have

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confirmed today was that after the News of the World's royal editor,

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Clive Goodman, and the private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, went

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to prison for phone hacking, News of the World continued to write

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checks towards the pair's legal fees. James Murdoch told the

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committee today he didn't know who authorised the payments. I can tell

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you I was as surprised as you are to find that some of those

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arrangements had been made. Murdoch senior I seem to be getting

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further with you, for which I'm grateful, would it have been Les

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Hinton? Would he have agreed, would he have had to sign that? It could

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have been. It could have been, would have been or could have been?

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It could have been. Who else could it have been? The chief legal

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officer. We got a glimpse today of what it's like to be Rupert Murdoch,

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Prime Ministers are desperate to see him, and desperate that we

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don't see him. Why did you enter the back door at Number Ten when

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you visited the Prime Minister following the last general

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election? Because I was asked to. You were asked to go in the back

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door of Number Ten? Yes. Why would that be? To avoid photographers in

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the front, I don't know, I just did what I was told. It's strange that

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given heads of state manage to go in the front door. Yes. Yet you

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have to go in the back door. Yes. I was invited within days to have a

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cup of tea to be thanked for the support by Mr Cameron. No other

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conversation took place. It lasted minutes. That was the one you went

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in through the back door. Yes. I had been asked also by Mr Brown,

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many times. Through the back door. Yes.

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And remember Gordon Brown's roaring speech in the Commons saying how he

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went to war with Rupert Murdoch. Well, that's not quite the version

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we got today. Did any senior politicians that you are in contact

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with, or you were in contact with during that period of time, raise

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this as an issue with that, raise concerns about phone hacking.

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Absolutely not, the politician I met most was Mr Brown when

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Chancellor of the Exchequer, his wife and my wife struck up quite a

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friendship, and our children played together on many occasions. And I'm

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very sorry that I'm no longer, I felt he had great values, which I

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shared with him, and I'm sorry that we have come apart, and I hope one

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day we will be able to put it together again. The confidentiality

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clause. As the last MP began questioning the Murdochs, there was

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an attack on Rupert Murdoch, by a member of the public, it would have

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been worse, had Mr Murdoch's wife not been so quick to his defence. A

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man was led away in handcuffs, the committee resumed, Mr Murdoch

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without his splattered jacket, it finished with a prepared statement.

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I would like all the victims of phone hacking to know how

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completely and deeply sorry I am. Apologising cannot take back what

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has happened, still, I want them to know the depth of my regret for the

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horrible invasion noose their lives. I fully understand their ire, I

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intend to work tirelessly to merit their forgiveness. The next witness

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was Rebekah Brooks, until last week the chief executive of News

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International, and editor of the News of the World, at the time when

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Milly Dowler's phone was hacked. She told the committee she had no

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knowledge of what happened. seems incredible that you as the

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editor were so unaware with fundamental issues to do with the

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investigation. In some ways I think the opposite, I don't know anyone

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in their right mind who would authorise, know, sanction, approve

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of, anyone listening to the voicemails of Milly Dowler in those

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circumstances. I just don't know anyone who would think it was a

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right and proper thing to do at this time, or at any time, and I

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know we know a lot more now, but that's all I can tell you.

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And what of her supposedly cosy relationship with David Cameron, no,

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she said, she had never been horse riding with the Prime Minister.

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truth is that he is a neighbour, a friend, but I deem the relationship

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to be wholly appropriate, and at no time have I ever had any

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conversation with the Prime Minister that you in the room would

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disapprove of. A dramatic day has wrapped up in

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testimony in the News of the World phone hacking scandal. In the end

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after all that detail and questioning, it all comes down to

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one question, do you believe the Murdoch account? Absolutely shocked,

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appalled and ashamed when I heard. Or not.

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I'm joined now by the former News of the World Glenn Mulcaire, the

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News of the World former politic - Mr McMullen, and one of the members

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of the committee who questioned the Murdochs today, Louise Mensch.

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First of all, were you frustrated that a lot of the answers to the

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questions were, "I have no knowledge of that", "I don't know

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what was going on there"? thrust of my questions at the end

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of the session, after the pie- throwing incident, was to ask the

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Murdochs if they didn't know, why didn't they know. That was the

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overarching question that came out of the session. They were clear

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they didn't know, they hadn't been informed, it seemed strange to me

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as I asked them, that Mr Murdoch senior had not been informed about

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such serious wrongdoing at one of his papers. It seemed Tobruk a

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failure of corporate governance at - to be a failure of corporate

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governance at News Corp. Was it a failure of governance or did you

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believe them? I challenged the Murdochs earlier on Newsnight that

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it would do them good to come before the committee and answer

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questions in depth, I found their answers mostly convincing w a

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couple of exceptions. The idea was floated to us that they wouldn't

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have noticed News of the World because it is such a tiny part of

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their media operation, that didn't seem credible t may be small in

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monetary terms, but as we have seen it is huge in reputational terms.

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That didn't strike me as credible. You put directly to Rupert Murdoch

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if he took responsibility for this, he said, no, do you accept that?

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put it to him that he ultimately is the head of the global company, and

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this happened on his watch, and if other people have considered their

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positions and resigned, would he consider his position and resign,

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that was a question that had to be asked of him. And his answer was

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that he had been too far above it to notice it, he delegated it down,

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and he could fix the problem. I did challenge the Murdochs, both Rupert

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and James Murdoch to institute massive review in their newsrooms

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and properties around the world and they said they would do so. He also

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said it was down to people that he trusted, and People Like Us they

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trusted, who are these people, you didn't drill down into that? This

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is the subject of a judicial and police investigation, when the

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questions were crafted from committees, we had the speaker from

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the hoims, and others from the House of Commons posed to Mrs

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Brooks, we had on a number of questions, not on too many, James

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Murdoch would say he couldn't answer it because of the police

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investigation, we were advised by counsel that we couldn't press

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further because of the police investigation. Did you broadly

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believe what you heard today? from Rupert, but not from anybody

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else. I was disappointed, possibly with the exception of yourself,

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with the quality of the question, they let them get away with, well,

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just a lot of nonsense, from I thought Rebekah Brooks. Like what?

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I was disappointed by James Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks, they are still

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blaming us, they are still blaming the reporters. We did these things

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for them, we went to the nth degree to get a story. The culture under

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Rebekah Brooks was you will do anything to get that story. I

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remember she said to me, I like McMullan, because he would turn

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over his own grandmother. That was the idea, that was the ethos, you

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will, where the biggest English language newspaper in the world,

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and we will remain that by having the best and most ruthless and

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dedicated reporters. So when they kept saying things like it is

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people they trusted, maybe people they trusted? He meant Rebekah

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Brooks probably. What did you think of it? I must take Paul on here, I

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have worked in executive roles in a number of newspaper, and I have got

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that pressure. I have had that steely look from the editor on a

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Thursday morning, what have we got, what we will put on page one, or

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two, three, four, five, six and seven, this list is rubbish, what

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will we do it. I don't go out and break the law, we try to get it by

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proper endeavour and old fashioned journalism, that is what we do.

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What we saw today, if Paul is saying here that he has been told

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by Rebekah Brooks to hack a phone, you know, say it. It was a bit more

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subtle, certainly, as we know, there were two whistle-blowers in

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this, one is now dead, amazingly and tragically, I was the other one,

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so it could be worse, I'm still here, but no, it was more coded

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language. When there was a big story breaking and it was getting

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towards Friday, and you really had to bring it in, Rebekah Brooks

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would either use the phrase "you must make it work ". There you are,

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use any means possible? Nobody has ever said that to me. They say

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there is a story you have to make a story by getting the facts, going

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out and meeting contacts. From the horse's mouth on the answer phone.

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It never crossed my mind, those thrown out of work because of

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things people like you have done, and be smerpblged the name of a

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good paper. You - You work in the lobby, it is a different world.

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have been a news reporter as well. It is different pressures than the

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world he has been in? I have been a news editor, running a team. Let me

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bring in Tina Brown, you are an editor, one of the questions where

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they did seem to get traction today was following the money. What we

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did find out was the legal fees of Mulcaire and Goodman were part paid

:15:21.:15:31.
:15:31.:15:33.

by News International, do you think this should be followed up, because

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somebody somewhere must have signed off the cash somewhere? One of the

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most humorous things I found was neither of them had any knowledge

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of who it was that directed these cheques to be signed. Which just

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didn't seem credible to me. It is the most evil-smelling aspect of

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this case that smulsmul, the hackers continued to have their -

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Mulcaire, the hackers, continued to have their legal fees paid, after

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doing something they claimed to be so abhorrent. It was Mulcaire

:16:04.:16:08.

hacking into the phone of Milly Dowler. On the one hand they are

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saying it is abhorrent, but on the other hand they are paying his

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legal fees still, that seemed to be the most rich area of obvious

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weakness in their case. What about the general principle of I didn't

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know, didn't ask, I wasn't told, it was a small part of my business?

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is odd to me, obviously Rupert is right he has an enormous company.

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15 2,000. I do think he used to be far more involved in the British

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papers than today, in the past very much involved, now, he's far more

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engrossed in the American aspect of his company, it is where he lives

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and socialises, it is where his wife is involved, and his biggest

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business interests are, at the same time, he does remain very

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interested in stories, it is the fun part, in a sense, of his life.

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When he, I think Philip Davies said, what do you say when you call the

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News of the World editor, he said yes he called him on Saturday night

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and I would ask what's doing, have you a good story for tomorrow. The

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truth is the next question he would normally ask is how did you get it.

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Because Rupert is actually interested in the process of

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journalism. To me it doesn't ring true that he would was - that he

:17:25.:17:28.

was such a disinterested Monarch. He's interested in stories, how

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they are got, who they are doing over, and what is the method, he's

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interested in that kind of stuff, that surprised me. One further

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thought, in terms of how this will go down on Wall Street, how this

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will go down in confidence in his kblt to steer the Murdoch empire in

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the future, what do you make of that? It is all down to the foreign,

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the Corruption Act, the foreign practices Corruption Act that is

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the thing in play. If anyone can show that the News of the World

:18:01.:18:06.

hacked into an American citizen on American soil, they were very

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slippery on the 9/11 question, did anyone hack into the 9/11 victim, I

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didn't think James was as solid in his answer as I would have thought

:18:16.:18:20.

he would be, that would be a big problem if proven. I think Rupert

:18:20.:18:24.

will hang on to his company, not sure what will happen to James. In

:18:24.:18:29.

this story the shoes keep dropping, something incredible could happen

:18:29.:18:37.

tomorrow. As shore shoe here, everybody seems to agree - another

:18:37.:18:44.

shoe here, everybody seems to think Rupert has news in his veins, it is

:18:44.:18:49.

inconceivable he would not ask questions? A lot of newspapers is

:18:49.:18:52.

delegating. I don't report to my editor where I get my stories from,

:18:52.:18:57.

the editor wouldn't talk up to him on how he's managing the paper, it

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just difs him the broad brush stuff. - Gives him the broad brush stuff.

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Rupert Murdoch was the only one that defended journalism, saying it

:19:06.:19:11.

made society better. I thought he would say sometimes it is justified

:19:11.:19:15.

to hack into a corrupt MP's phone, and just talking to the common man,

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I always ask the taxi driver on the way in, he said it was outrageous

:19:19.:19:24.

that our boys are being sent home in body bags from Afghanistan and

:19:24.:19:29.

we still have politicians with their trousers round their ankles,

:19:29.:19:36.

you should carry on hacking into their phones. I take it you don't

:19:36.:19:39.

agree? I don't think the public expect a policeman to be bribed. I

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don't think anyone thinks the law should be broken on account of

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these, most of the time, pretty frivolous hackings. Just to mention,

:19:51.:19:55.

were you kind of disappointed you didn't get to the bottom of it?

:19:55.:19:58.

got all the answers we were going to get given there is a judicial

:19:58.:20:02.

inquiry, and in the case of Rebekah Brooks an on going active police

:20:02.:20:07.

investigation. I think we exposed what needed to be exposed, the on

:20:07.:20:10.

going payments of legal fees to Glenn Mulcaire and asked the

:20:10.:20:12.

questions people wanted to hear, have you hacked the 9/11 phones,

:20:12.:20:15.

have you considered resigning, these questions were put directly

:20:16.:20:21.

to the owners of News Corp. That, I think, was extremely important.

:20:21.:20:25.

What interested me was the way Mr Murdoch said "we have a free

:20:25.:20:28.

society", he was referring, although he's technically an

:20:28.:20:32.

American, he was referring to Britain, when he contrasted us to

:20:32.:20:36.

the United States, he said we are society in contrast to the American

:20:36.:20:40.

society, of which he is a citizen. So I think he take as lively

:20:40.:20:43.

interest, it may be one of the reasons he agreed to testify to

:20:43.:20:47.

parliament today. As usual with this story, it was

:20:47.:20:50.

multidimensional, beyond the Murdochs and the former News of the

:20:50.:20:53.

World editor, Rebekah Brooks, we also heard from Sir John Stevens,

:20:53.:20:57.

on what was probably his last day as chief of the Metropolitan Police.

:20:57.:21:01.

Another strand to the web of relationships between the former

:21:01.:21:04.

News of the World journalists and people in power, the Conservative

:21:04.:21:10.

Party confirmed that the PR adviser to Sir Paul, Neil Wallis, was on

:21:10.:21:15.

informal advisor to David Cameron's chief, Andy Coulson, before the

:21:15.:21:25.
:21:25.:21:25.

last election. We unpick the police We heard today from three key

:21:25.:21:28.

police witnesses, commissioner Sir John Stevens who resigned at the

:21:28.:21:32.

weekend. Dick Fedorcio head of the media department, and Assistant

:21:32.:21:36.

Commissioner, John Yates, who resigned yesterday. All three are

:21:36.:21:38.

being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints

:21:38.:21:42.

Commisssion. Making sense of the tens of thousands of words of

:21:42.:21:46.

evidence made today, requires an understanding of the kind of

:21:46.:21:50.

hypothesis being pursued by MPs. It runs something like this, News of

:21:50.:21:53.

the World journalists were paying corrupt police officers for

:21:53.:21:56.

information, and their bosses at News of the World knew all about it

:21:56.:22:00.

and helped cover it up. Police officers themselves were in awe of

:22:00.:22:02.

their relationships with News of the World executives and this

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coloured their judgment and led them to pull their punches on the

:22:06.:22:10.

investigation, effectively letting the Murdoch empire off the hook.

:22:10.:22:15.

That's the can conspiracy theory, but to what extent did evidence

:22:15.:22:18.

heard today support those ideas? Much of the controversy today

:22:18.:22:23.

concerns the Met's relationship with this man, Neil Wallis, former

:22:23.:22:26.

News of the World deputy editor. After leaving News of the World, Mr

:22:26.:22:30.

Wallis set up a freelance PR business, and was taken on by the

:22:31.:22:36.

Metropolitan Police as an advisor, he was paid �1,000 a day for 24

:22:36.:22:40.

days work, by the Department of Public affairs, or the DPA, over to

:22:40.:22:43.

the commissioner. Mr Lisence Luis was never employed to be my

:22:43.:22:47.

personal a- Mr Wallis was never employed to be my personal

:22:47.:22:51.

assistant or give personal advice to me. He was employed to provide

:22:51.:22:55.

advice to the head of the DPA, you will see later on, through that he

:22:55.:23:00.

would give me occasional advice. A very part-time minor role.

:23:00.:23:04.

Wallis was also advising the luxury Champneys Health Spa, the

:23:04.:23:10.

commissioner accepted thousands of pounds of free hospitality there

:23:10.:23:14.

while recuperating from an operation, he says it has been

:23:14.:23:19.

declared but not registered yet. When I heard Mr Wallis was

:23:19.:23:23.

connected with Champneys, that was a difficult story, it was

:23:23.:23:25.

unfortunate for me, I had no knowledge previously. That,

:23:25.:23:28.

together with everything else, I thought this will be a significant

:23:28.:23:31.

story, it will continue. committee member found it

:23:31.:23:35.

incredible that no-one had told the commissioner that Mr Wallis was

:23:35.:23:42.

also working for Champneys? only way we would know that is if

:23:42.:23:47.

Mr Wallis had declared it to someone. I had no way of knowing he

:23:47.:23:52.

was connected to Champneys. With 45 press officers already in the Met,

:23:52.:23:57.

why did they need an ex-hack from News of the World to help them any

:23:57.:24:01.

way. Who recommended Mr Wallis to you, you say you had a

:24:01.:24:05.

recommendation before you took him on? I was trying to think, in mid-

:24:05.:24:10.

August I discovered that he was now working independently. Was it

:24:10.:24:15.

someone from the News of the World, or News International? I honestly

:24:15.:24:20.

can't recall who said it. You can't recall, despite the scrutiny on

:24:20.:24:23.

this matter, and despite having given it careful consideration, you

:24:23.:24:30.

can't recall who suggested that you hire Mr Wallis, was it Rebekah

:24:30.:24:34.

Brooks? Certainly not. You needed an extra consultant, were you

:24:34.:24:37.

consulted before he was appointed. I was, just let me say, with the

:24:37.:24:42.

benefit of what we know now, I'm happy to put on the record, I

:24:42.:24:48.

regret the contract, clearly, it is embarrassing. You knew Mr Yates was

:24:48.:24:53.

a personal friend of Mr Wallis. But you still relied on Mr Yates to

:24:53.:24:59.

give you the all-clear to employ Mr Wallis? I accept the integrity of

:24:59.:25:07.

Mr Yates, he's a senior officer in the organisation. What about your

:25:07.:25:12.

integrity as someone who needs to show due diligence in signing off

:25:12.:25:15.

this contract. John Yates said he only sought personal assurances and

:25:15.:25:19.

denied this amounted to the kind of detailed checks the committee said

:25:19.:25:24.

the head of media had suggested. think that slightly overegging the

:25:24.:25:31.

pudding. To put it mildly. I did what I considered, and it wasn't

:25:31.:25:37.

due diligence in the due diligence sense. I sought assurances off Mr

:25:37.:25:42.

Wallis, before the contract was let, to the effect. I have a note, I can

:25:42.:25:48.

read from it if you like. Is there anything in the matters that Nick

:25:48.:25:53.

Davies is still chasing and reporting on, that could at any

:25:53.:25:57.

stage embarrass you Mr Wallis, the commissioner and the head of the

:25:57.:26:00.

Metropolitan Police, I received catagoric assurances that was the

:26:00.:26:05.

case. The most dramatic moment was when John Yates revealed he had

:26:05.:26:10.

offered to brief the Prime Minister on hacking but was told not to go

:26:10.:26:18.

ahead by an official? The official was the Chief-of-Staff.

:26:18.:26:28.
:26:28.:26:54.

The Government released a statement tonight confirming that the cabinet

:26:55.:26:58.

secretary had seen the exchange of e-mails and believed that the

:26:58.:27:02.

Chief-of-Staff acted entirely properly, so the verdict from today,

:27:02.:27:06.

well the grand conspiracy theory is certainly not proven, but there was

:27:06.:27:09.

evidence which revealed some highly questionable judgment calls made by

:27:09.:27:12.

some of the most senior officers in the police. And ultimately, that's

:27:12.:27:17.

why they had to go. I'm joined by Newsnight's political

:27:17.:27:23.

editor, Michael Cirk, what did we learn today? After goodness knows

:27:23.:27:26.

how many hours of testimony on two different committees, not a huge

:27:26.:27:33.

amount. It was high and memorable drama. A huge day for the select

:27:33.:27:42.

committee, the stand out image is that of a two - of the two Murdochs,

:27:42.:27:48.

and Rupert Murdoch came across as faltering and forgetful, he was the

:27:48.:27:51.

absent-minded grandfather in the corner. James performed, in the

:27:51.:27:55.

circumstances, rather well, I think this is probably, symbolising the

:27:55.:28:01.

shift of shower within that organisation. It was also

:28:01.:28:06.

interesting that they relied very little on their lawyers and the

:28:06.:28:11.

fact that there was Anam going police investigation. David Cameron

:28:11.:28:14.

is - There was an on going police investigation. David Cameron will

:28:14.:28:17.

be in the Commons tomorrow, what does he need to do to get a grip on

:28:17.:28:21.

it? It is a big day, he's flying back from Africa, he has to make

:28:21.:28:25.

three speeches tomorrow. First of all he's doing a statement to the

:28:25.:28:28.

Commons, in that statement he will be giving some of the names on the

:28:28.:28:32.

judicial inquiry, and some of the more details of the remit of the

:28:32.:28:37.

inquiry. He's then got to make a speech opening the debate, and then

:28:37.:28:40.

making a speech to the 1922 Committee, who are a bit annoyed

:28:40.:28:44.

that he seems to have snubbed them over the last few days. He has been

:28:44.:28:48.

busily doing drafts of the speech on the plane back from Nigeria.

:28:48.:28:53.

Interestingly, also, on the plane back from Nigeria, Mr Cameron's

:28:53.:28:56.

aides were drawing attention to the evidence from Rebekah Brooks in her

:28:56.:29:00.

testimony today, that it wasn't her idea that Andy Coulson should go

:29:00.:29:03.

and work in Downing Street, but it was George Osborne's idea.

:29:03.:29:09.

Interesting that David Cameron's aide should draw attention to that.

:29:09.:29:13.

But but I think David Cameron's biggest problem at the moment is he

:29:13.:29:16.

hasn't a huge amount of support from his party at the moment,

:29:16.:29:22.

either from backbenchers or members of the cabinet. How many have come

:29:22.:29:27.

out backing them. Boris Johnson today came out more strongly. The

:29:27.:29:30.

whips have been doing quite an operation tonight to try to

:29:30.:29:33.

persuade people to talk in tomorrow's debate. It is a struggle

:29:33.:29:39.

because a lot of MPs have gone on their holidays already. What is the

:29:39.:29:43.

significance between the e-mails between Ed Llewellyn and ACC John

:29:43.:29:46.

Yates? That is a potential problem for David Cameron. The Downing

:29:46.:29:50.

Street line is this shows our integrity, we didn't want to be

:29:50.:29:54.

briefed by John Yates, we didn't want to be accused of interfering

:29:54.:29:59.

in the police operation. On the other hand, Yvette Cooper,ed shadow

:29:59.:30:06.

Home Secretary, says this is deeply troubling, this is the second

:30:06.:30:10.

incidence of Ed Llewellyn blocking information from being passed to

:30:10.:30:14.

David Cameron about this affair. But Ed Llewellyn was backed by Andy

:30:14.:30:18.

Hayman, the permanent secretary in Number Ten, and tonight he's backed

:30:18.:30:22.

by the cabinet secretary, Gus O'Donnell. Just on that point, why

:30:23.:30:27.

is it important to keep the Prime Minister in ignorance? It is not

:30:27.:30:31.

keeping him in ignorance, it is making sure that nothing

:30:31.:30:35.

inappropriate happens. That he doesn't know things? Ed Llewellyn

:30:35.:30:39.

had to make a judgment koul, there was a police operation going on,

:30:39.:30:43.

John Yates said do you want me to discuss the language, if there is a

:30:44.:30:47.

police investigation going on, politicians shouldn't be involved

:30:47.:30:57.
:30:57.:31:00.

in can he tail. Ed Llewellyn had a judgment call to make and he got it

:31:00.:31:04.

absolutely right. Excuse me, why is it then that the Chief-of-Staff to

:31:04.:31:08.

the Prime Minister writes in such coded terms, "on the other matters

:31:08.:31:11.

that have caught your attention, assuming we are thinking of the

:31:12.:31:16.

same thing, don't tell the Prime Minister" what's that all about?

:31:16.:31:20.

That is what John Yates said. In fact, you cut what the actually, if

:31:20.:31:23.

you read the full e-mail, John Yates was coming in to brief the

:31:24.:31:26.

Prime Minister about a very, very important skurtd issue, that was

:31:27.:31:31.

the main point. He then said do you want me to talk about these other

:31:31.:31:36.

things. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, why did they talk like that?

:31:36.:31:41.

Llewellyn said no, it wouldn't aib proper rate. Why is it in code?

:31:41.:31:43.

They both knew what they were talking about. Assuming we are

:31:43.:31:48.

thinking of the same thing, it was a code, nudge and a wink, they felt

:31:48.:31:51.

there was something wrong here, it fails the Prime Minister's own

:31:51.:31:55.

smell test? No it doesn't. What it does is Ed Llewellyn making it

:31:55.:32:01.

clear that to have a conversation with a police officer about the

:32:01.:32:06.

details or nuances as John Yates put it, of an operational matter,

:32:06.:32:10.

it would not be appropriate for politicians to get involved. That

:32:10.:32:13.

was one of the basic principles, that when a police investigation is

:32:13.:32:19.

going on the police should control it. It is not plausible? As someone

:32:19.:32:25.

arrested in my time, it is a distinction that politicians

:32:25.:32:28.

shouldn't interfere in police investigations. Is Has that changed

:32:28.:32:33.

your view being arrested and exonerated? I'm not an uncritical

:32:33.:32:39.

admirer of those who used to run the Met. One of the more serious

:32:39.:32:42.

thing, other than the media, which is in serious crisis is making sure

:32:42.:32:48.

we get the Met back on an even keel. That is really important for all of

:32:48.:32:53.

us. Do you think it was appropriate for Neil Wallis to advise Andy

:32:53.:32:56.

Coulson, while Mr Coulson worked for David Cameron? I don't know

:32:56.:32:59.

what an informal advisor is, I know the Conservative Party didn't pay

:32:59.:33:03.

money to Mr Wallis, didn't employ him, didn't have him on a contract,

:33:03.:33:08.

or a consultant. So if he phoned Coulson up, he phoned Andy Coulson

:33:08.:33:12.

up, nobody else senior in the campaign had any knowledge that Mr

:33:12.:33:16.

Wallis was involved at all. It is a symptom, isn't it, of the cosy

:33:16.:33:19.

relationships that were going on by two people who fell under

:33:19.:33:23.

suspicious, and both of whom have been arrested? But what it doesn't

:33:23.:33:26.

prove is anything about the Conservative Party, the

:33:26.:33:30.

Conservative Party didn't have Mr Wallis. It talk about the judgment

:33:30.:33:34.

of people talking the judgments recorded in the Metropolitan Police,

:33:34.:33:41.

that Wallis was an appropriate person to employ, and Andy Coulson

:33:41.:33:45.

was an appropriate person to employ. There is a difference that

:33:45.:33:48.

obviously the Metropolitan Police are investigating Mr Wallis,

:33:48.:33:51.

therefore, it was clearly inappropriate to have him on the

:33:51.:33:55.

payroll, where Andy Coulson's case is completely different. He gave

:33:55.:34:00.

the Prime Minister assurances he did nothing wrong, he repeated them

:34:00.:34:03.

in court and to a select committee. It is not unreasonable for the

:34:03.:34:08.

Prime Minister to believe those assurances. It was George Osborne's

:34:08.:34:13.

idea and a great idea? That is known for some time. Andy Coulson

:34:13.:34:18.

did a great job in his time as press officer. And George Osborne

:34:18.:34:22.

deserves all the credit for the God thaing that Coulson has done?

:34:22.:34:25.

Coulson did a good job working for David Cameron. We will find out,

:34:25.:34:28.

and there is a police investigation going on, what happened over phone

:34:28.:34:36.

hacking. Who else's phone has been hacked, has the Prime Minister's

:34:36.:34:39.

phone been hacked? I don't know, all this was happening years ago,

:34:39.:34:42.

and the previous Government did nothing about it. What is happening

:34:42.:34:47.

now is we have not only got a police investigation, but a judge-

:34:47.:34:53.

led inquiry into the way newspapers operate. As they sieve through the

:34:53.:34:57.

numbers you must figure that out? I'm a politician I don't get

:34:57.:35:00.

involved in individual police operations, this is the very strong

:35:00.:35:04.

principle, if the police are conducting a criminal investigation,

:35:04.:35:08.

they should do that properly on their own. They should not be

:35:08.:35:12.

interfered with at every stage by politicians, that is the basic

:35:12.:35:16.

correct decision that Ed Llewellyn took. Thank you very much.

:35:16.:35:20.

Now the event itself, the sight of two of the most powerful men in the

:35:20.:35:26.

world, and one of the most powerful women, answering questions about

:35:26.:35:30.

the world's most powerful media empire was not something we would

:35:30.:35:35.

see in Britain often. As a piece of theatre, it might have reminded

:35:35.:35:41.

people of the Watergate scandal and even the Lewinsky affair. We

:35:41.:35:51.
:35:51.:35:56.

analyse the impact of what we saw Summer, festivals, show time, the

:35:56.:36:00.

smell of the grease paint and the roar of the burgers, think about it.

:36:00.:36:05.

But if you are a Newsnight viewer, and let as say you are, hanging

:36:05.:36:10.

about in the chillout tent, to catch some of the original line-up

:36:10.:36:18.

of the Inpiral Carpets, doesn't cut it. The season had little to match

:36:18.:36:22.

the prospect of Murdochs and Rebekah Brooks appearing before the

:36:22.:36:27.

committee. In the long hot summer we are having, today's

:36:27.:36:30.

parliamentary session promised to be like a rock festival. Like a

:36:30.:36:40.
:36:40.:36:43.

parliamentary session cranked up to But did the line-up live up to all

:36:43.:36:47.

the hype, how did it shape up as an event what did it tell us, if

:36:47.:36:51.

anything b the state of our institutions? First question, did

:36:51.:36:57.

it cut it as drama? Rupert Murdoch is a bit like King Lear, he has

:36:57.:37:00.

hived off his kingdom to other people, and is rather surprised by

:37:00.:37:04.

how that has turned out. The tension between James Murdoch and

:37:04.:37:07.

Elizabeth Murdoch is one of the stories, another is the sense in

:37:08.:37:11.

which Rebekah Brooks is a kind of surrogate daughter for Murdoch, you

:37:11.:37:17.

have the three children, like in King Lear, and the slightly

:37:17.:37:21.

unexpected fishering that comes about as a result of that.

:37:21.:37:25.

claimed in the Wall Street Journal that Harbottle & Lewis had made a

:37:25.:37:31.

major mistake, can I ask what mistake you were referring to?

:37:31.:37:35.

of the things about courtroom drama is there is always an unexpected

:37:35.:37:42.

hero, a quiet man, in this incidence it was Tom Watson. One of

:37:42.:37:46.

the other features was the long pauses, pauses in theeure tend to

:37:46.:37:52.

be associated with Chekhov, and Harold Pointer, these pauses were

:37:52.:37:57.

self-indulgent and even beyond that point. Extraordinary we wills of

:37:57.:38:02.

silence. We spoke to a lawyer that worked for Robert Maxwell's sons

:38:02.:38:07.

who faced MPs in the 1990s, what moment stood out for him today?

:38:07.:38:10.

me the most electrifying moment would be James trying to explain

:38:10.:38:14.

why the company was paying Mulcaire's legal fees, and having

:38:14.:38:17.

to wriggle on the situation that clearly it has been paying his fees

:38:17.:38:22.

up until recently, and trying to find some rational for justifying

:38:22.:38:27.

it and failing miserably in that way. I do know that certain legal

:38:27.:38:32.

fees were paid for Mr Mulcaire by the company and I was as surprised

:38:32.:38:40.

and shocked to learn that as you are. That was the one moment when

:38:40.:38:45.

he was really down, other than that they didn't land any real punches

:38:45.:38:50.

on him. Was Rupert Murdoch's appearance calculated to garner

:38:50.:38:58.

sympathy. Mr Blair visited you half way around the world. He what?

:38:58.:39:05.

visited you half way around the world. Before the 1997 election?

:39:05.:39:11.

That was something Mr Cameron or Campbell arranged. It would be a

:39:11.:39:15.

strategy to go to Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful mogul in the

:39:15.:39:22.

world, and say we think you should come across as a shambling, falters,

:39:22.:39:27.

semi-deaf old geezer? I think the idea of portraying him as a

:39:28.:39:30.

Simpson-like Mr Burns character, would be a job too far.

:39:30.:39:34.

wouldn't like to sell that to him? I certainly wouldn't walk into the

:39:34.:39:40.

room and say hi, I have great strategy here, we will send you in

:39:40.:39:43.

like some dithering old fool and fumbling around the crisis is.

:39:43.:39:48.

is just the way he is, perhaps then? If this has shown us one

:39:48.:39:58.
:39:58.:39:58.

thing, it has shone a light on to the McKiss Mo of that - machismo of

:39:58.:40:02.

this organisation, that isn't as forceful as you would have thought

:40:02.:40:08.

it was. The shares rose today, for many days, and recently, the News

:40:08.:40:12.

Corp shares have suffered a discount, because people felt that

:40:12.:40:15.

Rupert Murdoch was past his best. If he left, then the shares could

:40:15.:40:21.

rise even further. As with every festival there is the

:40:22.:40:25.

sobering feeling that the party is over, but the cleaning may take a

:40:25.:40:31.

while yet. Joining us now from New York is

:40:31.:40:34.

Carl Bernstein who with Bob Woodward broke the story of

:40:34.:40:40.

Watergate. The former chairman of the BBC and ITV, Will Self, writer,

:40:40.:40:46.

and TV producer Daisy Goodwin, who also writes for the Times, first

:40:46.:40:50.

Earl Spencer, the brother of Princess Diana, and giving his

:40:50.:40:56.

first interview on the phone hacking scandal. You had some hopes

:40:56.:41:01.

on press reform going back a long time, any hope today? I had no high

:41:01.:41:04.

hopes today, I thought they would be briefed well enough to get

:41:04.:41:08.

through the questions from, frankly, hampered inquisitors, because they

:41:08.:41:13.

are dealing against the backdrop of a legal inquiry and other things.

:41:13.:41:16.

Not many punches were landed, I don't think any great progress was

:41:16.:41:20.

made. Did you feel at least it was a big moment, did you feel things

:41:20.:41:24.

were changing? I hope so, I'm an optimist, and I think if they don't

:41:24.:41:28.

change on the back of what has been happening in the last few weeks, so

:41:28.:41:32.

we get a more accountable and summonsable press, and one not

:41:32.:41:35.

capable of being accused of corruption and criminal acts, non-

:41:35.:41:40.

when we are. What has been, over the years, the affect on you and

:41:40.:41:45.

your family? Pretty massive, I'm not here to whinge at all. I have

:41:45.:41:51.

chose to live abroad with my young children to get away from tabloid

:41:51.:41:55.

intrusion, this is much more a case not about people like myself who

:41:56.:42:00.

can move abroad, it is about people who may be rolled over by the press

:42:00.:42:05.

unexpectedly in their lives. It is a Titanic force. I have the means

:42:05.:42:11.

to take any action I want against newspapers or other media outlet

:42:11.:42:16.

that is overstep the mark. I hope what comes out of this is not just

:42:16.:42:20.

News International, but other groups resorting to the same

:42:20.:42:24.

methods, which I know they have been. It is not just them, you are

:42:24.:42:28.

sure about that? I'm sure there are other newspaper groups waiting for

:42:29.:42:33.

the spotlight to move to them. I know that without a doubt. So so

:42:33.:42:38.

the fact is we may be looking at the Murdochs being put before an

:42:38.:42:43.

inquisition today, but my hope is that we can purge the whole system,

:42:43.:42:48.

not control the press in way they can't do the responsible job of

:42:48.:42:51.

proper journalism, such as the journalism which has unearthed what

:42:51.:42:56.

is going on and brought us to this stage in this process, but which

:42:56.:43:00.

can make the press accountable for their actions and less likely to

:43:00.:43:04.

overstep the mark. But did you feel, when you were watching this today,

:43:04.:43:08.

did you feel any sympathy at all for Rupert Murdoch? I always feel

:43:09.:43:13.

sorry for man well past his prime, and who is obviously struggling at

:43:13.:43:17.

times. I had to keep reminding myself this is a man who has

:43:17.:43:22.

actually taken large swathes of the British media down a certain root

:43:22.:43:27.

and has not, as a result, and done things that are not great. What do

:43:27.:43:31.

you think of the implication for David Cameron on this, it touches

:43:31.:43:34.

him in various ways too? I know very little about this, the

:43:34.:43:37.

political side. But I imagine anyone who is touched by these

:43:37.:43:41.

implications in a meaningful way will have a lot to answer for. What

:43:41.:43:46.

is very exciting for me, as somebody sitting on the sidelines

:43:46.:43:54.

and there has been been as an occasional tabloid punch bag. What

:43:54.:43:58.

is exciting for me is everything gets it now. There has been a

:43:58.:44:01.

guilty little secret among politicians and newspaper providers

:44:01.:44:06.

and a lot of celebrities and others, that this goes on. Phone hacking

:44:06.:44:13.

and worse, a purlioning of medical records and so on. It is only now

:44:13.:44:17.

that it has become a major issues, because of the terrible hacking

:44:17.:44:22.

into a dead girl's phone, Milly Dowler. These have taken it into a

:44:22.:44:31.

different areana that, I hope we will all have a better press in ten

:44:31.:44:35.

years time. How important is in moment for the British and Murdoch

:44:35.:44:38.

organisation? I think this is a huge event in the history of the

:44:38.:44:44.

west, particularly the English speaking world. What we saw today

:44:44.:44:47.

is really evidence of the sad tale of what has happened to modern

:44:47.:44:52.

Great Britain, and how one man has been able to capture the political

:44:52.:44:59.

system, the media and the cops of a great nation, over a generation or

:44:59.:45:05.

two. It is appalling. The one thing that the Earl is right about is

:45:05.:45:12.

certainly that people are now on to what this is about, which is a

:45:12.:45:17.

semi-criminal pre, at the bottom of, the sewer level, - press, at the

:45:17.:45:22.

pot tomorrow, the sewer level of journalism. As opposed to decent

:45:22.:45:24.

institutions in the British and American press. We are talking

:45:24.:45:28.

about the sewer, and the terrible thing about this, is the British

:45:28.:45:34.

public has lapped it up. Just as much as the American public has

:45:34.:45:39.

lapped up this kind of tabloid journalism, perhaps not as extreme.

:45:39.:45:45.

Other journalists have stood by and said this is perfectly fine, we

:45:45.:45:49.

will understand, wink and laugh at it, then you realise this is a

:45:49.:45:53.

terrible business and a whole country has been polluted by the

:45:53.:46:00.

people that we saw up there today. Do you think, as it has been called

:46:00.:46:07.

on Twitter, "hackgate", same as Watergate, is it really a moment of

:46:07.:46:12.

change like that? For almost 40 years, I have winced every time the

:46:12.:46:18.

Murdoch press has particularly appended a "gate" to anything else.

:46:18.:46:27.

A few days ago I wrote a piece for the newspaper saying Murdoch's

:46:27.:46:31.

Watergate speculation. Such as what are the similarities? First of all,

:46:31.:46:36.

it is about the corruption an institution, just as Nixon

:46:36.:46:42.

corrupted his White House, his administration, Murdoch has

:46:42.:46:48.

corrupted the press under his watch, the low end of his empire. Now we

:46:48.:46:53.

are looking for a smoking gun, just as we were in Watergate, we don't

:46:53.:46:57.

need a smoking gun to know what kind of aura existed at News of the

:46:57.:47:01.

World, and other publications. Also I think there is something that

:47:01.:47:06.

this is not just about Murdoch's papers, as Murdoch went deeper into

:47:06.:47:11.

the gutter, in terms of the lowest descending common denominator in

:47:11.:47:14.

journalism, with his publications, others followed suit, just as they

:47:14.:47:19.

did in this country, when the New York Post started to go down.

:47:19.:47:23.

Let me put it to Will Self, do you see this as a Watergate moment, a

:47:23.:47:26.

huge moment of change because it is so awful? I would like to believe

:47:26.:47:32.

it is some kind of moment in change that way. I would certainly agree

:47:32.:47:35.

with Carl, what this represents is a kind of corruption of the British

:47:35.:47:38.

political system, and I thought one of the most telling things that

:47:38.:47:45.

Murdoch said today was when he leaned over to the MPs facing him

:47:45.:47:48.

and said Singapore, as far as he was concerned was the most open

:47:48.:47:53.

society in the world, because every MP was on a million dollars. That

:47:53.:47:59.

got a laugh from the assembled MPs. What I saw there was the arch

:47:59.:48:04.

apostle of envy in our culture, that is the culture that Murdoch

:48:04.:48:10.

has introduced. Everything flows from a more devisive society, and a

:48:10.:48:13.

more envious culture. Even when Yates and Stephenson of the yard

:48:13.:48:16.

were up there giving evidence to the home affairs committee, that

:48:16.:48:21.

was about envy too. You have been involved in the big

:48:21.:48:23.

media organisations, the Press Complaints Commission, do you share

:48:23.:48:28.

any of this optimisim that Earl Spencer and Will Self was talking

:48:29.:48:31.

about there? I think we have to remember the hard cases

:48:32.:48:37.

investigated go back a few years, any journalist today knows that if

:48:37.:48:41.

they start hacking or trying to get stories by criminal means they will

:48:41.:48:47.

go to jail. The law of the land is stronger than any regulator can

:48:47.:48:55.

possibly be. That alone is pretty salry. I didn't mean - All salutery.

:48:55.:49:01.

I didn't mean to say I'm optimistic about where this is going and it is

:49:01.:49:06.

going to reform politics in the English speaking world or

:49:06.:49:16.
:49:16.:49:17.

journalism in the English speaking world, I wish I had that optimisim.

:49:17.:49:21.

David, as a big moment, did you think, some people tuning in today

:49:21.:49:26.

in the hope of seeing some kind of hanging didn't they? This is the

:49:26.:49:29.

story that keeps on giving, they did not get the hanging but they

:49:29.:49:34.

did get the custard pie. That was an extraordinary moment. It

:49:34.:49:39.

delivered wonderfully in TV terms, as a TV producer, I thought the

:49:39.:49:46.

relationship between Rupert and James was fascinating, Wendi behind.

:49:46.:49:51.

Rupert's pauses were extraordinary, Pointeresque. There was a moment

:49:51.:49:54.

when he said, when Rupert Murdoch stuck up for investigative

:49:54.:49:58.

journalism, I thought it was a wonderful irony, it is

:49:58.:50:02.

investigative journalism on the part of Nick Davies and the

:50:02.:50:06.

Guardian ended up with him sitting in front of the select committee.

:50:06.:50:09.

Do you feel any sympathy for Rupert Murdoch today? As a woman and

:50:09.:50:15.

person, yes I did. I have not met him, I have written for the Sunday

:50:15.:50:20.

Times, I don't know if I can say I feel sympathy for him. I thought at

:50:20.:50:26.

the beginning he looked confused, and he looked extremely

:50:26.:50:29.

uncomfortable, I thought might be. I thought there was a moment where

:50:29.:50:32.

I was watching it with a group of people in my office, and the

:50:32.:50:38.

pendulum was swinging towards him. It is a very unusual experience for

:50:38.:50:43.

Rupert Murdoch and the sire of the family to be accountable in that

:50:43.:50:46.

public fashion. This is not a scenario Rupert Murdoch would be

:50:46.:50:55.

used to. He's used to qutable to share holders, he has the votes so

:50:55.:50:58.

just listens to them. The thing that would have got News Corp

:50:58.:51:03.

completely out of the woods by now, if they had gripped this from the

:51:03.:51:08.

beginning, as soon as the phone hacking incident came to light. If

:51:08.:51:13.

they had called in independent investigators, forensic detectives

:51:13.:51:17.

from the outside, and saying they know there is one case are there

:51:17.:51:22.

any more. And they have done everything they can to dripfeed and

:51:22.:51:25.

avoid the difficult questions. I don't agree, Murdoch's whole career

:51:25.:51:35.
:51:35.:51:36.

has been based, he started, his idea was he's a rank outsider and

:51:36.:51:42.

anti-establishmentarium, he published Christine Keeler's

:51:42.:51:47.

memoirs. He's the back stoor establishment, nonetheless he's the

:51:48.:51:51.

establishment. His placeman is beside the Prime Minister's side,

:51:51.:51:53.

another one beside the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, there

:51:53.:51:57.

is a degree of solution in this story that is phenomenal, what is

:51:57.:52:04.

the access here is around the BSkyB deal. In fact, that smelt to high

:52:04.:52:14.
:52:14.:52:18.

heaven. There is a Cinergy between that and the hacking issue - - the

:52:18.:52:21.

synergy between that and the hacking issue.

:52:21.:52:26.

Do you think those who invest or otherwise will be facted today?

:52:26.:52:31.

think this - affected today? I think this will depend on popular

:52:31.:52:34.

will. If ordinary people express themselves and say enough of this

:52:34.:52:37.

kind of journalism, that will get through to the board of the

:52:37.:52:40.

directors, that will get through to the British political establishment.

:52:40.:52:44.

I think that's ultimately where it lies. I think one of the things we

:52:44.:52:50.

ought to look at today, is one of the absolutely incredible things we

:52:50.:52:54.

heard today is, that whatever conspiracy there was, it probably

:52:54.:53:00.

goes on because the criminals are still being paid. They are still

:53:00.:53:03.

receiving money from under a legal agreement in which they are bound

:53:03.:53:08.

not to talk, and one of them wants to talk, apparently, and cannot.

:53:08.:53:12.

This is an extraordinary thing. me bring in Earl Spencer again, as

:53:12.:53:17.

the optimist on the panel, perhaps the only one. Why do you feel that

:53:17.:53:23.

things are changing now, when they didn't after what you said at

:53:23.:53:25.

Diana's funeral, that everybody remembers, you made similar points

:53:25.:53:30.

then, about the hounding by the press? Yes, I think Carl Bernstein

:53:30.:53:35.

is right there, in his minimal optimisim, you know, it is up to

:53:35.:53:39.

the public to change. I don't know whether they have the appetite to

:53:39.:53:44.

change. I think though there is a revulsion which I haven't seen for

:53:44.:53:49.

14 years against the worst excesses of the tabloids. But actually, the

:53:49.:53:53.

worst excesses of the tabloids have been some what neutered now. No

:53:54.:54:00.

politician can provide the figleaf of respect bltd for it to continue.

:54:00.:54:04.

No mainstream high level politician can be seen supping with the

:54:04.:54:12.

Murdochs again. The great dilemma here, whilst there is public anti-

:54:12.:54:15.

pathy towards Rupert Murdoch per se, they still love his products, the

:54:15.:54:20.

News of the World was the best- selling newspaper this country, and

:54:20.:54:25.

the Sun the best selling tabloid. Some how the public feel that they

:54:25.:54:29.

don't like people wielding political influence, when they

:54:29.:54:33.

haven't got any votes. Do you see, you referred to the

:54:33.:54:37.

relationship he found interesting between father and son today. Do

:54:37.:54:43.

you think this is the break-up of the great empire that the dynasty

:54:43.:54:50.

will be not handed on in the way they thought? It is hard to saying,

:54:50.:54:54.

every word Rupert said mattered. It seemed to me James Murdoch talked a

:54:54.:55:00.

lot, I can't really remember what he said. I thought that was quite

:55:00.:55:05.

an interesting thing. He said I didn't know that. He said often it

:55:05.:55:10.

is a very good question, I'm glad you asked that. What about Rebekah

:55:10.:55:17.

Brooks? Again I had sympathy for her. She's a woman under enormous

:55:17.:55:22.

pressure. I think she has been maybe rightly vilified, but she has

:55:22.:55:27.

certainly been vilified not just as an editor, but also a woman. If I

:55:27.:55:31.

see another reference to her hair, which is magnificent, but it is

:55:31.:55:34.

just hair, I feel there has been too much of that, and there has

:55:34.:55:39.

been less talk about what she actually did as an editor. Do you

:55:39.:55:45.

have any sympathy for her? depends if she has been made a fall

:55:45.:55:50.

guy or whether she's responsible. Right now, I think the jury is open.

:55:50.:55:55.

I'm withholding sympathy. Did you have any dealings with her? I did,

:55:55.:56:01.

I had dealings with her when the front page of a Sun was inaccurate

:56:01.:56:05.

and damaging, she was very helpful and offered no help or redress

:56:05.:56:12.

whatsoever. That was her speciality. As a company, does News

:56:12.:56:16.

International or News Corp need the Murdochs? As Carl pointed out, the

:56:16.:56:19.

institutional sharehold remembers the people who will count on that,

:56:19.:56:24.

we all know what the fault line is in the states. My impression is

:56:24.:56:32.

that James, everybody is grasping for the Shakespearian analogy, is

:56:32.:56:36.

he Cordelia or Reagan? My impression is that Rupert Murdoch

:56:36.:56:42.

isn't all together happy with the idea of James's success, that is

:56:42.:56:46.

what Rebekah was about, she was the surrogate in that way. I think you

:56:46.:56:52.

are going to see the strong arm of corporate governance finally

:56:52.:56:59.

imposed on News Corp and News International companies. The broad

:56:59.:57:03.

structures are not compliant with best practice corporate governors.

:57:03.:57:07.

We have to leave it there, we have run out of time completely.

:57:07.:57:17.
:57:17.:57:17.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds

:57:17.:58:12.

That's all from nice night tonight, we will leave you with

:58:12.:58:15.

extraordinary pictures from a documentary shown on BBC One

:58:15.:58:21.

earlier, of a scientist trying to get a lava sample from the volcanic

:58:21.:58:26.

lake in the Great Rift Valley. We are not sure how they got a close-

:58:26.:58:36.
:58:36.:59:03.

up shot, but everyone lived to tell Good evening, parts of north-east

:59:03.:59:06.

England and south-east Scotland will continue to see heavy rain

:59:06.:59:10.

into the night and the morning. A wet day towards the far South-West.

:59:10.:59:14.

Elsewhere a largely dry start, brightness here and there, but

:59:14.:59:17.

plenty of cloud a few showers developing. For the north and

:59:17.:59:20.

north-east of England, as well as the borders of Scotland, we will

:59:20.:59:25.

continue with the thundery downpour, risk of flooding. Parts of Greater

:59:25.:59:29.

Manchester, dry and bright. The south-east and southern counties,

:59:29.:59:32.

after a reasonably bright start, we will see showers through the day.

:59:32.:59:36.

Devon and Cornwall will turn dryer, as will parts of South Wales.

:59:36.:59:39.

Brightness breaking towards the clouds towards western coasts and

:59:39.:59:44.

across the north. The wind light, getting in the sunshine it will

:59:44.:59:47.

feel warm. The breeze developing in Northern Ireland will make it

:59:47.:59:52.

cooler, largely dry with some occasional sunshine. Into Scotland

:59:52.:59:56.

western areas, dry and bright, more cloud further east, it is the

:59:56.:59:59.

south-east where we will see the heaviest of the rain. To take us

:59:59.:00:02.

from Wednesday into Thursday, we will see some heavy showers around,

:00:02.:00:06.

not a huge amount of change to be honest. Further south a different

:00:06.:00:08.

picture, we have the cloudy conditions on Wednesday, outbreaks

:00:08.:00:14.

of rain, Thursday, though, a greater risk of some heavy and

:00:14.:00:18.

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