18/07/2011 Newsnight


18/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Tonight, Scotland Yard in turmoil, another resignation at the top of

:00:10.:00:15.

the Met, is trust in the police the biggest casualty of the phone

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hacking scandal? Assistant Commissioner Yates

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follows his boss's example and quits, more in anger. There is ill-

:00:30.:00:34.

informed and malicious gossip being published about me personally.

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Another bizarre twist, Sean Hoare, the original News of the World

:00:38.:00:42.

whistle-blower is found dead. While David Cameron cuts short his trade

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trip to Africa, could the crisis cause the stop of his Premiership.

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This happened on my watch and I'm determined to get to the bottom of

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it. We will discuss the damage he's suffering and the state of the Met,

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and discuss the committee hearing with Rupert Murdoch tomorrow. The

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United States declared last month their drones had stopped killing

:01:03.:01:13.
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Pakistani civilians, we have new Good evening, is Britain's biggest

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and most important police force merely incompetent, or corrupt or

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possibly both. You can forgive people for wondering. Public

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confidence in police is said to be rocking after two high-profile

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resignations. The Met Police chief saying he took a free stay at a

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health spa, and botched investigation into phone hacking

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and news that a former senior executive of News of the World was

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working for the Met at the same time. How far can we trust the yard

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and the people running it? Reporters would meet some of the

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Met's most senior officers in this wine bar, just a stone's throw from

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New Scotland Yard. They were, we are told, on drinking

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terms, something which made some other police officers deeply

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uncomfortable. But the latest revelations in this fast-moving

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story, appeared to show that relationships went even deeper than

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this. Journalists, of course, will always

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want to meet serving police officers for information, it is

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part of the job. For the police, though, it is all about degree and

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judgment. I have been told by a former, very senior police source,

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that in this bar, in the West End there used to be regular meetings

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between News of the World journalists, and Paul Stephenson

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and John Yates and the Met's head of media, to discuss stories. I'm

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told the relationships were incredibly close.

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The former commissioner met with Rupert Murdoch's executives 18

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times in four years. There are suggestions tonight that some other

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relationships were much closer than this. The $6 4,000 question is was

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there any element of the relationship between the police and

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News of the World that some how impeded them from pursuing the

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phone hacking inquiry. That is the question. The man who decided in

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2009 not to reopen the hacking inquiry after spending eight hours

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reviewing 11,000 pages of evidence. Has come under relentless pressure

:03:15.:03:18.

to resign. Earlier today he was threatened with suspension, so he

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jumped. We in the police service are truly accountable. Those of us

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who take on the most difficult jobs clearly have to stand up and be

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counted when things go wrong. However, when we get things wrong,

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we say so. We try to put them right. As I have said very recently, it is

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matter of great personal regret that those potentially affected by

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phone hacking were not dealt with appropriately. Sadly, there

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continues to be a huge amount of inaccurate, ill-informed, and on

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occasion, down right malicious gossip being published about me

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personally. I think once he decided, without properly going through the

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evidence, that there was no case to answer, really the writing was on

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the wall, and there was no way back. You cannot have somebody in charge

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of counter terrorism with that sort of attitude. I think it is shame,

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because he has done some very good work, there is no question he was

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an outstanding officer. He made mistakes, and he had to pay the

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price. This is the man at the centre of the controversy, Wallis,

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former deputy editor of News of the World, arrested last week. The Met

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paid him �1,000 day, for 24 days media consultancy last year. He

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worked closely with commissioner John Yates, whose committee vetted

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his application. He was also adviser to the luxury Champneys

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health spar, and it emerged that the former police commissioner,

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Paul Stephenson, accepted thousands of pounds of free hospitality at

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the club. He denied any propriety, and said the company is owned by

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family friend and the stay was declared. That wasn't enough to

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save him, the commissioner resigned less than 24 hours ago. What was a

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commissioner from the police doing accepting such a high-level

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incentive or high-level gift. But ultimately the police should be

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putting themselves out of reach of any such allegation or inference. I

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think you know, incredibly naive, the head of the police shouldn't be

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so naive. What I find very odd is the Met had to hire any outside

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people to help with publicity, when they had him and 69 press officers,

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it almost beggers belief that you would needed a decisional support

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in those circumstances. A shrew of advice has followed, the Home

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Secretary has asked the police inspectorate to see if the media

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has had undue influence over the police, and there will be a new

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:06:05.:06:29.

Press Complaints Commission report The Mayor of London said the two

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top officers' resignations had been inevitable. There is absolutely

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nothing proven against the probity or the professionalism of either

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man. But, in both case, we have to recognise that the Nexus of

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questions about the relationship between the Met and the News of the

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World, was likely to be distracting to both officers in the run up to

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the Olympic games. Two chiefs gone in two days, the

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Met is in turmoil tonight. But for some inside the organisation, and

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for others, who have recently left, this is an opportunity to break the

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ties with the Murdoch press. John Yates has had his critics, angry

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about his closeness to News of the World's people, and the new broom

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cannot be vigorous enough. I'm sure that there are very good and very

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honest officers within the Met, to the highest level, that wanted to

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see this cleared out, wanted to get rid of those people who they

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thought perhaps were too close to the press. It seems for the police,

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that embarrassing fact about their relationship with News of the World

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are emerging daily. Tonight, the Met confirmed that a senior

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journalist on the paper was employed for a while as a Ukrainian

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interpretor, with access to sensitive material. Critics say the

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scandal is overplayed with his opponents. But that argument seems

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far fetched in the light of evidence such as this.

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I'm joined by previous mayor, Ken Livingstone, and Boles, and Sir

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Chris Fox. This is pretty catastrophic for the

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Met, to lose such senior officers, who were very highly regarded in

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the profession, whatever mistakes they might have made? It certainly

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is, at a time when the Met is under a lot of pressure, particularly to

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lose Paul, who I have the highest regard for, it is a tragedy. You

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hear the mayor actually saying, there is nothing proven against him

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in any way, and it just seems rather sad and rather, a very toxic

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situation to deal with. That is his basic problem, I think. Given that

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it is very toxic, and given we don't know where it ends, actually,

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is there any reason for the public to have full confidence in the

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Metropolitan Police tonight? There are 30-40,000 officers in the

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Metropolitan Police, we are talking about a handful of officers here,

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although some senior ones. I think the public know that the vast

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majority of officers are getting on with their job. Indeed, when you

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look at some of the things that are alleged and talked up, I think John

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Yates used the word "gossiped", when you see some of those things,

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when they are seen in a proper investigative way, and balanced

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against the time those decisions were made, and balanced against

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what was happening in the rest of the environment, it may not looks a

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it does now. So I just feel that it is all one way traffic at the

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moment. That must be exceedingly frustrating for the senior people

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in the Met. When you were Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, why didn't

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you see some of it coming? There was no evidence of it, this arises

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from the Guardian expose say in 2009. There was closeness between

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officers and News of the World back to when you were the mayor?

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looks back many decades, that wasn't an issue. Unlike the current

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mayor I did a press conference every week, nobody from the BBC or

:10:08.:10:11.

the Guardian came along and said there is more to this than meets

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the eye. We saw hacking into the Royal Family, and in 2007, the

:10:15.:10:18.

people guilty went to prison. At that stage nobody came to me and

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said we think there is much more to this. Had they done so I would have

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made certain it was investigated. Wasn't your relationship with News

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of the World too close, you wrote columns for the Sun, you did do t

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you must have been reasonably close. You also spent �350,000 of money on

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the PR company run by Matthew Freud, the husband of a Murdoch. We looked

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for marketing company and they were the most successful bid. They

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happened to be connected to the Murdoch family? You simply can't

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get away from it, Rupert Murdoch phoned the four editors of his

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papers in Britain, just before the last mayoral election, to make

:11:02.:11:07.

certain they were endorsing Boris Johnson, I think I must be doing

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something right if Rupert Murdoch intervenes to oppose my election.

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You had to use out of all the PR companies on planet earth you had

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to use a Murdoch connected one? They were a very good one, we got

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�21 million investment from China after those offices opened. Boris

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Johnson talks about the nexus, the guy working for News of the World

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as a translator for News of the World and Scotland Yard at the same

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time. We have Neil Wallis's daughter and so on, and so on. How

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far does it go? I don't know, this is something the various different

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inquiries launched will have to get to the bottom of. There was a

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culture in which this was normal. It wasn't just a few bad apples

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doing bad things. If it had been that it would be less worrying. It

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was a culture where this seemed fine, and people who were good

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people and police officers, thought it was normal to have a lunch with

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a journalist, and maybe take a bit of money for something. That was

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wrong? It was wrong, that is where we have to root out the whole thing

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not a few individuals. Why did Boris Johnson when some of it came

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up said it was codswallop, there was a degree of complacency in

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London too? The whole political class have underestimated this for

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a very long time. Frankly, we were all in the business of trying to

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win the approval of various newspapers and various journalists

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and editors and even proprietors, and as the Prime Minister has said

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we are all at fault here, Boris is not excluded interest that, nor is

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he the only one. Sir Chris Fox, do you worry there will be more

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resignations from the Met over this, these two were at the top of the

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tree. A lot of people were feeding them manufactures which turned out

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to be rubbish? I don't know, I don't know enough about it, there

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hasn't been a proper investigation, that worries me more than anything.

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People are being forced into resignation positions before

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anybody has had a proper cold investigative look. I mean, hearing

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that some of the nonsense that has been spoken, for example, if you

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are the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, you are

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constantly under media spotlight, you are a target for Fleet Street

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or Wapping, as it is, a target for international press, it is

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absolutely quite normal for you to want the best strategic advice you

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can get, and what better than from an editor from a big title. So you

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are going to have to involve yourselves at the top of the media

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world, otherwise you will not survive t has been proven you won't

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survive. You have to be able to play the game, and you have to be

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able to deal in information which means that it is not about giving

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information, it is about make sure that you are providing the

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information which is keeping the media satisfied.

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It maybe so, but you are also the head of the most prestigious police

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force in this country and if you have somebody who is working for

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you, who works for an organisation, or worked for an organisation which

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is under investigation, surely you must smell a rat there, there is

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something wrong. All these people who resigned, none of them did

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anything wrong, Rebekah Brooks didn't do anything wrong, Andy

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Coulson didn't do anything wrong, the police officers didn't do

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anything wrong, why have they all gone? If we wait the until the

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investigation was done, we might know the answer to. That the bottom

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of this for me, whenever the police actually do take action, one of the

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tactics of the people they take action against is to start

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complaining about them. It happens at the very lowest level, the

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contables on the street know about it, they have complaints made.

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There is a system in place for those complaints to be investigated,

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coldly, and factually decided. That is what should have happened in

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this case. The Metropolitan Police authority should have investigated

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it, they should have waited for that. And then come to a conclusion.

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But the actual hysteria that has generated round a story like this,

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leads people into a position where they have no choice. If he this

:15:05.:15:10.

want to continue to investigate this, and be accepted as truthful

:15:10.:15:14.

and honest investigators, they have to resign. Because the atmosphere

:15:14.:15:21.

is such that no-one gives them a chance to do that. Let me asks you

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two, you are both intimately involved in the running of London,

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do you think we might come to regret this, will you sleep more

:15:28.:15:30.

easily tonight knowing that two people, tasked with the security of

:15:30.:15:35.

the Olympic games, and dealing with terrorism, have gone from the Met?

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There was nothing good about these people going. The only one I have

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had dealings with was Paul Stephenson, and I thought he was a

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remarkable man, one of those police officers who automatically inspires

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confidence. As he himself said, he reached the conclusion that he

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could no longer command public confidence, as this thing ran and

:15:53.:15:57.

ran. In probably one of the most challenging years for London

:15:57.:16:01.

security. It was a conclusion he drew. Do you think we will regret

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it? I don't, because there are very talented officers there, Cressida

:16:10.:16:14.

has taken on the role Yates had. And you have a deputy commissioner

:16:14.:16:18.

embedded in awful this. These two people have had to go, they went

:16:19.:16:22.

because they were asked to look into this, they failed to do it.

:16:22.:16:26.

Were they lied to by junior officers, in way skaist case they

:16:26.:16:29.

have to be cleaned out. If it is simply they were naive and

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accepting there is nothing in there, and been there and told that by

:16:33.:16:36.

junior officers, they have a real complaint. They have gone, but the

:16:36.:16:39.

Prime Minister, who was warned about Andy Coulson, and mateor of

:16:39.:16:44.

London, who was warned a year ago by Labour members there was

:16:44.:16:48.

something wrong, they stay in place. Now the myriad of new developments

:16:48.:16:51.

and strange twists to this story are taxings everyone following it,

:16:51.:16:55.

there was another example tonight with the death of the News of the

:16:55.:16:58.

World, who blew the whistle on phone hacking, Sean Hoare. Police

:16:58.:17:00.

say the circumstances are not suspicious.

:17:00.:17:06.

You better remind us of who Sean Hoare was? He was a very colourful

:17:06.:17:10.

character, a showbiz reporter on News of the World, successful at

:17:10.:17:13.

his job, until he was dismissed with drink and drug problems some

:17:13.:17:20.

time ago. All the people I speak to speak of him as a very talented

:17:20.:17:23.

showbiz reporter. Who had a multitude of resources and very

:17:23.:17:27.

good at his job. As you mentioned in the introduction, the police in

:17:27.:17:32.

Hertfordshire are not confirming his identity, but it is widely

:17:32.:17:35.

reported it is Sean Hoare found death in Watford. The circumstances

:17:35.:17:39.

are said to be unexplained, but not necessarily suspicious. But what we

:17:39.:17:43.

do know about him, of course, was that he had the guts, I suppose, to

:17:43.:17:48.

come out some weeks ago now, and talk openly about the endemic

:17:48.:17:51.

culture of phone hacking at News of the World. I think we can see a

:17:51.:17:57.

clip from it. It was endemic, it happened. REPORTER: When you say it

:17:57.:18:03.

was endemic, phone hacking and the use of illegal practices to secure

:18:03.:18:09.

stories, that was endemic, is what thank what you were saying? Yeah.

:18:09.:18:12.

People are scared, if you have to get a story, you have to get it,

:18:12.:18:20.

you have to get that by whatever means. One of his other colleagues

:18:20.:18:27.

was dris direction one of the few people - Matt Driscoll, one of the

:18:27.:18:32.

few people to talk about hacking, and others who have appeared on the

:18:32.:18:36.

programme before. The thing about speaking openly about it, some of

:18:36.:18:40.

them sign confidentiality agreements, and some have been so

:18:40.:18:43.

closely linked into the phone hacking, aleedgedly, they don't

:18:43.:18:51.

want to speak. It is remarkable that Matt Driscoll spoke about his

:18:51.:18:55.

experiences too. When we were both approached to talk by the New York

:18:55.:19:00.

Times to b what was going on. We were discredited about having an

:19:00.:19:03.

axe to grind because we left the newspaper. That was unfair, because

:19:03.:19:06.

all we wanted to do was tell the truth. You have to remember, my

:19:06.:19:13.

shef and Sean, were one of a hand - myself and Sean were one of handful

:19:13.:19:16.

of people who left the paper without a confidentiality clause.

:19:16.:19:22.

We were one of the few people who could tell the truth. That is an

:19:22.:19:24.

interesting point. Sean Hoare would have been real use to the

:19:24.:19:27.

inquiries? He would have been a huge asset. Especially given that

:19:27.:19:33.

his time in the paper coincided with Andy Coulson kouls who went on

:19:33.:19:36.

to become communication - Andy Coulson kouls, who went on to

:19:36.:19:40.

become communications director for the Prime Minister. Heternal

:19:40.:19:46.

experience of the widespread culture - he had internal

:19:46.:19:49.

experience of the widespread culture of hacking. There is a new

:19:49.:19:52.

joke at Westminster tonight, what is the difference between God and

:19:52.:19:58.

David Cameron, God is everywhere, David Cameron serve where - is

:19:59.:20:01.

everywhere except in the House of Commons. At the moment the Prime

:20:01.:20:04.

Minister is still on Trade Commission to Nigeria and South

:20:04.:20:08.

Africa, which he maintains his more pressing than his role in the

:20:08.:20:12.

biggest scandal in his time in office. Some are wondering if the

:20:12.:20:18.

crisis could yet engulf his Premiership. Spot the difference,

:20:18.:20:25.

two of the mightiest men in Britain. Who both employed former top News

:20:25.:20:30.

of the World journalist, for PR advice. On the right, Met chief,

:20:30.:20:34.

Paul Stephenson, who quit last night, after Thursday's arrest of

:20:34.:20:38.

Neil Wallis, over alleged phone hacking. On the left, David Cameron,

:20:38.:20:42.

still Prime Minister, after his former aide, Andy Coulson, was

:20:42.:20:48.

arrested the week before. A similarity hinted at by Sir Paul

:20:48.:20:52.

in his resignation statement. And with the spotlight increase league

:20:52.:20:55.

on Mr Cameron, even though he was on a trade trip to South Africa

:20:55.:21:01.

today, he tried to tackle it. would say that the situation in the

:21:01.:21:07.

Metropolitan Police is really quite different to the situation in

:21:07.:21:10.

Government, not least that the issues that the Metropolitan Police

:21:10.:21:15.

are looking at, and the issues around them, have had a direct

:21:15.:21:18.

bearing on public confidence into the police inquiry, into the News

:21:18.:21:22.

of the World, and indeed to the police themselves. And for my part

:21:22.:21:28.

what I would say, is this, that we have taken very decisive action.

:21:28.:21:35.

But Ed Miliband, speaking in London, was determined to pursue the

:21:35.:21:39.

comparison. Sir John Stevens has taken responsibility and resigned

:21:39.:21:49.
:21:49.:21:51.

over - Sir John Stevens, has taken responsibility over the hiring of -

:21:51.:21:55.

we need leadership to get to the truth over what happened. But the

:21:55.:21:59.

Prime Minister is ham strung by the decisions he made and his refusal

:21:59.:22:09.
:22:09.:22:11.

to face up to them. This afternoon Boris Johnson said Sir Paul

:22:11.:22:15.

Stephenson's resignation was the right thing to do, but he wasn't so

:22:15.:22:20.

helpful to his friend, David Cameron. REPORTER: If it was, as

:22:20.:22:26.

you say, the right call for Sir Paul Stephenson, for hiring a PR

:22:26.:22:29.

man in the phone hacking scandal, shouldn't David Cameron resign over

:22:29.:22:35.

the hiring of a PR man in the phone hacking scandal? I'm not here to

:22:35.:22:39.

discuss Government appointment, I'm here to talk about events in the

:22:39.:22:42.

Metropolitan Police Service, those questions you need to direct to

:22:42.:22:46.

Governments. I don't think there is a very clear read-across in this

:22:46.:22:49.

matter, afterall I'm not aware that Number Ten Downing Street was

:22:49.:22:53.

actually in charge of an investigation. REPORTER: The Prime

:22:53.:22:57.

Minister has just called a judicial inquiry of it, of course he's in

:22:57.:23:01.

charge of an investigation, he has just called a judicial inquiry?

:23:01.:23:04.

Michael, I know the point you are trying to make. It is not relevant

:23:05.:23:08.

to whey want to do with policing in London. This is a matter you must

:23:08.:23:12.

direct to Number Ten Downing Street, I suggest you ask them. It was left

:23:12.:23:18.

to Nick Clegg, of all people, the man who last year warned Cameron

:23:18.:23:22.

about Andy Coulson, to come to the PM's aid. I don't think this is

:23:22.:23:27.

about the Prime Minister's position, absolutely nod, let's keep this in

:23:27.:23:32.

- not, let's keep it in perspective. The issue with the police is the

:23:32.:23:35.

fears that a criminal investigation may have been compromised in some

:23:35.:23:40.

way, that is the focus of people's attention today. Thanks.

:23:40.:23:44.

Then, when the Home Secretary told MPs she was launching three new

:23:44.:23:48.

inquiries, into aspects of the police, Labour resumed its attack.

:23:48.:23:54.

The judgment of the Met has been called into serious question, by

:23:54.:23:59.

appointing Neil Wallis, but so has the judgment of the Prime Minister

:23:59.:24:04.

by appointing Neil Wallis's boss, Andy Coulson. People will look at

:24:04.:24:07.

this and think it is one rule for the police and one for the Prime

:24:07.:24:15.

Minister. But May, unlike Jeremy Hunt last week, went on the

:24:15.:24:18.

offensive. She asked about the whole question of the difference

:24:18.:24:20.

between the Met and the Government. Of course there is a difference

:24:20.:24:24.

between the Met and the Government. The Metropolitan Police were

:24:24.:24:26.

investigating allegations of wrongdoing at the News of the World.

:24:26.:24:30.

I think it is absolutely right that there should be a line between the

:24:30.:24:34.

investigators and the investigated. Then classic piece of Dennis

:24:34.:24:39.

Skinner. People are resigning at Murdoch's,

:24:39.:24:46.

people are being arrested, all over the place, and yet only one area

:24:46.:24:53.

remains intact, on millionaire's row, the Government bench. When is

:24:53.:24:58.

"dodgy" Dave going to do the decent thing and resign. But it wasn't

:24:58.:25:01.

just Labour MPs who were sensing blood. What has been striking about

:25:01.:25:06.

today is the degree to which Tory bloggers and MPs are starting to

:25:06.:25:13.

talk about David Cameron's future. By shares, - buy shares in Theresa

:25:13.:25:18.

May was the whisper after her performance today, including from

:25:18.:25:23.

one ministerial aide, not her's, I should stress. There has always

:25:23.:25:26.

been a substantial chunk of Tory MPs who have never liked David

:25:27.:25:31.

Cameron, but now, right-wingers, who once saw Andy Coulson as their

:25:31.:25:37.

mate who agreed with them on issues like crime and immigration, are

:25:37.:25:42.

ironically exploiting his demise to stick the boot in.

:25:42.:25:46.

Welcome, I didn't know you were so young. He won't be at this rate!

:25:46.:25:52.

For David Cameron, who met Desmond Tutu today, has announced he will

:25:53.:25:57.

return from Africa early, tomorrow morning and not Wednesday morning.

:25:57.:26:00.

More time, to prepare his statement for the extra Commons sitting,

:26:00.:26:05.

which today was called for Wednesday. Meant to be the first

:26:05.:26:12.

day of MPs' summer break, some hope. I'm joined by the deputy leader of

:26:12.:26:16.

the Labour Party, Harriet Harman, and the Conservative MP, Nick Boles

:26:16.:26:20.

is still with us. There is something wrong with the

:26:20.:26:23.

Prime Minister's judgment here? made clear he received assurance,

:26:23.:26:27.

which he accepted, the same assurances were given to a Scottish

:26:27.:26:32.

court, the Scottish court accepted them. They didn't employ him as

:26:32.:26:37.

spokesman in Number Ten? Sorry, they call made some pretty big

:26:37.:26:40.

decisions in relation to Mr Andy Coulson. He has received those

:26:40.:26:45.

assurances, and if those assurances turned out to be lies, he will put

:26:45.:26:51.

his hand up and say it was the wrong decision. The biggest thing

:26:51.:26:58.

levelled at him is niavity, all of this frothy talk, about him looking

:26:58.:27:03.

at his position like the Metropolitan Police commissioner,

:27:03.:27:09.

it is end of term giddyness. It is 3.00am, the phone rings in Downing

:27:09.:27:14.

Street in a national crisis and somebody that has displayed niavity

:27:14.:27:18.

answers the phone, is that what we want? That is not what I have said,

:27:18.:27:24.

it is the worst levelled at him is niavity. He is not niavity and

:27:24.:27:29.

gullible? A Scottish court was also guilty of the same niavity, the

:27:29.:27:32.

police and a Parliamentary Committee, the Labour Party, who

:27:32.:27:36.

frankly hosted, wined and dined the Murdochs for decades were also

:27:36.:27:40.

guilty of the same niavity, we are all, as the Prime Minister said n

:27:40.:27:43.

this together, we have all failed as politicians to understand the

:27:43.:27:48.

nature of the relationship. Harriet Harman you are part of this pattern

:27:48.:27:51.

of niavity? We are not all in this together, it is not a Scottish

:27:51.:27:55.

court running the country, it is not a Scottish court that hired

:27:55.:27:59.

Andy Coulson, he didn't have to hire Andy Coulson. It was a Labour

:27:59.:28:04.

Prime Minister who invited Rebekah Brooks for a slumber party at a

:28:04.:28:07.

taxpayer paid for grace and favour mansion, Chequers, after, after,

:28:07.:28:12.

News of the World journalists had been convicted of phone hacking. So

:28:12.:28:16.

therefore, don't come all high and mighty on us, don't get on to your

:28:16.:28:19.

little moral high horse, the Labour Party was up to its neck in this,

:28:19.:28:22.

and we're not claiming we are better, we are not claiming we are

:28:22.:28:26.

without sin, but the Labour Party to start its claiming without sin

:28:26.:28:31.

will not wash. Answer that? What was about to happen, is we were

:28:31.:28:36.

within days of David Cameron's Government waving through Rupert

:28:36.:28:42.

and James Murdoch's bid to own not only the Sun, News of the World and

:28:42.:28:47.

the Times, but the whole of BSkyB, and David Cameron saying that he's

:28:47.:28:51.

determined to get to the bottom of this, he went all the way to South

:28:51.:28:55.

Africa in order to not to answer questions, he has got some's to

:28:55.:29:01.

answer. - questions to answer. When you have a crisis engulfing the

:29:01.:29:04.

Metropolitan Police, which is very serious, whole issues raised about

:29:04.:29:07.

the press, you do expect leadership from the Prime Minister, and

:29:07.:29:11.

because he will not acknowledge his error in employing Andy Coulson,

:29:11.:29:14.

because he will not answer questions about BSkyB, he cannot

:29:14.:29:18.

show that leadership. Are you saying that because Neil Wallis was

:29:18.:29:21.

a resigning matter for the Metropolitan Police commissioner,

:29:21.:29:24.

that Andy Coulson is a resigning matter for the Prime Minister?

:29:24.:29:32.

are not calling on the Prime Minister to resign. You didn't

:29:32.:29:36.

dispute Dennis Skinner's point. is not the Labour Party's position

:29:36.:29:40.

to call on the Prime Minister to resign, we are calling on him to

:29:40.:29:46.

answer questions, two questions in particular. Which is why he's

:29:46.:29:50.

coming back on Wednesday. The logic surely is he should go, if you

:29:50.:29:55.

think it is right for Sir Paul Stephenson to resign over what he

:29:55.:29:58.

presumably did. Presumably your logic is he should go? No, we are

:29:58.:30:02.

calling on him to answer questions. You called on Ken Clarke to go over

:30:02.:30:06.

a misstatement of rape, this is the Prime Minister over who he employs

:30:06.:30:09.

in Downing Street, it is OK for him to stay? He didn't have to employ

:30:09.:30:15.

Andy Coulson, he did, and that was an error of judgment. We are

:30:15.:30:18.

calling on him to acknowledge it was an error of judgment. Nobody

:30:18.:30:21.

can see David Cameron as Prime Minister, leading the country and

:30:21.:30:24.

the Metropolitan Police, through this difficult crisis, if he won't

:30:24.:30:29.

acknowledge his own error of judgment. There is another question

:30:29.:30:33.

he won't answer. There is one more question, you have had your say.

:30:33.:30:36.

There is another question he won't answer, he was having dinner right

:30:36.:30:39.

at the height of this crisis with Rebekah Brooks r we really to

:30:39.:30:44.

believe he didn't discuss the BSkyB bid. This is the shadow. He won't

:30:44.:30:49.

answer that question. His judgment, in going to South Africa, and

:30:49.:30:54.

Nigeria, when this is going on, that was also daft? Can you tell me

:30:54.:30:57.

what is the judgment call in saying to the President of South Africa,

:30:57.:31:01.

extremely important ally and trading partner, and the President

:31:01.:31:05.

of Nigeria, that because of a little local difficulty, which, by

:31:05.:31:08.

the way you have dealt with by announce ago full judicial inquiry,

:31:08.:31:13.

with wide ranging powers, supported by every part of the house, when

:31:13.:31:18.

this deal threatening has already been dropped by News Corp, what

:31:18.:31:21.

would the credibility attached to a decision to pull out. What would

:31:21.:31:27.

people around the world. Why is he coming back earlier? Because he has

:31:27.:31:31.

seen the South African Prime Minister and the Nigerian President.

:31:31.:31:35.

Because it is right and proper for parliament, before it rises, to

:31:35.:31:43.

have a final statement on this on the whole scandal and the issues.

:31:44.:31:47.

The Prime Minister has to continue to be Prime Minister and is right

:31:47.:31:50.

to do things? He has come back because Ed Miliband was clear he

:31:50.:31:54.

would call for the House to sit on Wednesday for the questions to be

:31:54.:31:57.

answered. The truth is David Cameron is so boxed in by his wrong

:31:57.:32:03.

judgment about Andy Coulson, and about his involvement with BSkyB.

:32:03.:32:07.

Harriet were there any wrong judgments when you were deputy

:32:07.:32:11.

leader. When you were in Gordon Brown's Government, have there been

:32:11.:32:15.

wrong judgments in Tony Blair's Government. You want to ask her

:32:15.:32:19.

about wrong judgments. I would like to hear the end of the sentence and

:32:19.:32:23.

then we will come to you? There is a crisis and he can't show the

:32:23.:32:27.

leadership a Prime Minister should. At least we have had remarkable

:32:27.:32:31.

leadership from Ed Miliband, and David Cameron has followed.

:32:31.:32:35.

leadership Gordon Brown showed in not calling for a judicial inquiry

:32:35.:32:39.

or setting up after the original phone hacking. Ed Miliband has

:32:39.:32:41.

broken through this, hopefully there will be a reasonable

:32:42.:32:45.

settlement to all of this. I'm on my fifth Prime Minister now, I have

:32:45.:32:49.

never seen one looking more slippery and less prepared to

:32:49.:32:54.

answer the questions. Weren't the Conservatives 1% ahead of you in

:32:54.:32:59.

the opinion polls today? All we are saying is there are questions to

:32:59.:33:06.

answer. Maybe he has good answers? He has gone up to South Africa away

:33:06.:33:11.

from it. Excuse me the phones of the Royal Family were bugged.

:33:11.:33:17.

have just heard Harriet give herpes. You seem blowing a lot of air.

:33:17.:33:25.

is pumping air into this. What the met commissioner resigned, Milly

:33:25.:33:30.

Dowler's phone hacked. You have lost all sense. A very senior judge

:33:30.:33:37.

has the judicial inquiry. Forced to by Ed Miliband. He didn't interrupt

:33:37.:33:43.

you, he stopped when I told him to. He called for News Corp to withdraw

:33:43.:33:49.

the bid for BSkyB. Only after he was forced to by Ed Miliband.

:33:49.:33:58.

left for South Africa before Sir Paul Stephenson resigned. He comes

:33:58.:34:02.

back one day before to answer questions. If that isn't a Prime

:34:02.:34:05.

Minister balancing his many responsibility. Ed Miliband has

:34:05.:34:10.

nothing else to do but chase this hear, the Prime Minister has a lot

:34:10.:34:15.

to do, he has to deal with the fact that gas prices went up by 18%, and

:34:15.:34:18.

the eurozone breaking up, he has to deal with the fact that we are

:34:18.:34:23.

trying to help businesses grow by exporting with Africa. He has to

:34:23.:34:27.

deal with the fact that Nick Clegg was the most robust supporter of

:34:27.:34:31.

him not his front bench competing with Nick Clegg. He's a

:34:31.:34:36.

very good deputy Prime Minister. Where are all the other

:34:36.:34:43.

Conservative cabinet ministers conspicuous by their absence

:34:43.:34:49.

sorry for my lowly status. Michael Crick is a brilliant journalist, he

:34:49.:34:52.

can always find three of the mad and bad and usual suspects to

:34:52.:34:57.

rumble off in any subjects, whether Labour, story or Lib Dems, there is

:34:57.:35:00.

no rumbling in the Tory Party about anything other than the fact that

:35:00.:35:06.

Labour is looking this up to try to make a big bang before they all go

:35:06.:35:11.

off on their holidays. There is no good in shouting at me about this.

:35:11.:35:16.

Milly Dowler's phone was hacked. There will be a judicial inquiry.

:35:16.:35:21.

I'm feeling sympathy for Speaker Bercow. It is important that a

:35:21.:35:24.

murder victim's phone was hacked, it is important that there was a

:35:24.:35:28.

police investigation that didn't get to the bottom of hacking. It is

:35:28.:35:30.

important we have lost the Metropolitan Police commissioner,

:35:30.:35:33.

it is important that we were in days of Murdoch having the BSkyB,

:35:33.:35:36.

and it is important that the Prime Minister answers questions and

:35:36.:35:40.

comes to the House. All of that is happening. There is a judicial

:35:40.:35:43.

inquiry and the Prime Minister will make a statement and having debate

:35:44.:35:47.

on Wednesday, what more do you want. We will follow it with great

:35:47.:35:51.

interest. Last month the Obama administration said it had taken

:35:52.:35:55.

steps to ensure that civilians in Pakistan would not be hit by unmand

:35:55.:35:59.

drones the United States was using against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

:35:59.:36:02.

Tonight Newsnight has new evidence that this confidence is simply

:36:02.:36:07.

wrong. I'm joined by the defence editor, Mark Urban. Is part of this

:36:07.:36:10.

due to the chill in relations between Pakistan and Washington?

:36:10.:36:16.

is, it has always been a secret war, if you like, conducted by the CIA,

:36:16.:36:19.

in Pakistan, using these unmanned aircraft. If one looks at the

:36:19.:36:23.

history of it, one can see how it is ramped up. But now there are

:36:23.:36:28.

questions in the wake of the Bin Laden raid. Of course the vast

:36:28.:36:32.

majority of the raids have been carried out in the tribal areas, on

:36:32.:36:35.

the border with Afghanistan there. Over the years the numbers have

:36:35.:36:40.

gone up steadily. In the first few years of the strikes, 2004-007,

:36:40.:36:46.

there was just handful. Then we see it going up, 2010, under the Obama

:36:46.:36:52.

administration, reallyising, but a policy never really fully publicly

:36:52.:36:57.

articulated. 118 strikes last year, 45 so far this year. The Pakistanis

:36:57.:37:01.

said a couple of months ago they wanted them stopped, they ordered

:37:01.:37:08.

the CIA out of an bears in Pakistan where some of the - of a base in

:37:08.:37:13.

Pakistan where some of the strikes have been launched from. There have

:37:13.:37:18.

been a couple of dozen since then, were they done against the will of

:37:18.:37:23.

the Pakistani Government, like the Bin Laden attack. We know the

:37:23.:37:32.

Americans are intensely sensitive about it, and John Brennan's talk

:37:32.:37:42.
:37:42.:37:45.

of allaying fears, the President's In other words, that because they

:37:45.:37:48.

have been checking no other people are in the compounds when they

:37:48.:37:51.

strike, they say no-one has been killed as a result in the past.

:37:51.:37:56.

Since all this last year. Have they delivered on that

:37:56.:37:59.

ambition, that promise? This is where the new research comes in. It

:37:59.:38:03.

is done by the Bureau of Investigative Journalismism, a non-

:38:03.:38:06.

profit organisation of journalists, who dig into this kind of thing,

:38:06.:38:16.

they have done some works on strikes carried on in 2010, when wi

:38:16.:38:22.

is when the US changed its policy. They say by their reckoning, 45

:38:22.:38:26.

people, civilians, who were not militants or key figures in the

:38:26.:38:29.

leadership of Al-Qaeda or the Taliban, were killed during that

:38:29.:38:33.

period. They are looking at a further 15 incidents, where they

:38:33.:38:37.

would estimate at least another 60 uninvolved people were killed,

:38:37.:38:44.

making well over00 casualties. Now the US has - 100 casualties. The US

:38:44.:38:49.

has respond the to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, saying

:38:49.:38:55.

they are widely off. This is the response to that. We had feedback

:38:55.:38:59.

from the intelligence community saying, that categorically, they

:38:59.:39:03.

standby their view that absolutely no civilians have been killed in

:39:03.:39:07.

Pakistan since August 23rd last year. Yet we have named individual,

:39:07.:39:11.

named children, we have photoic evidence, we have sent researchers

:39:11.:39:16.

into the field and looked at this, we followed it up through NGOs and

:39:16.:39:20.

lawyers in Pakistan. We can't understand why they are

:39:20.:39:22.

categorically saying no civilian deaths when the evidence seems to

:39:22.:39:32.
:39:32.:39:34.

show that. These claims are hard to back up? There is a lot of reports

:39:34.:39:38.

from the tribal areas, an exhibition of photographs from the

:39:38.:39:44.

area is opening in London. This was the 23rd of August last year, that

:39:44.:39:52.

killed circumstance civilians s - civilians, there was this boy,

:39:52.:39:56.

killed in a strike two months after that change in targeting. So the

:39:56.:40:03.

bureau's position on this, who conducted the area, they have sent

:40:03.:40:09.

researchers into the area, and looked into the family background

:40:09.:40:14.

of those supposed to be killed in this. It making it more interesting

:40:14.:40:17.

considering the fraught and tangled relationship between the US and

:40:17.:40:21.

Pakistan. Back to the main story tonight, if you could sell tickets

:40:21.:40:27.

to tomorrow's encounter between Rebekah Brooks, Rupert Murdoch and

:40:27.:40:32.

James Murdoch, you might have more takers than the Olympic games if

:40:32.:40:37.

you could sell the tickets. Our political editor Michael Crick is

:40:37.:40:42.

here to discuss the issues. Days don't get bigger than this?

:40:42.:40:46.

could go down as the most dramatic day in parliamentary history. Like

:40:46.:40:50.

day when you have a string of back- to-back football matches on

:40:50.:40:55.

television. We start off at 12.00 with Paul Stephenson, who resigned

:40:55.:40:58.

last night, with the home affairs committee, followed by John Yates

:40:58.:41:03.

at the same committee, then it switches to the Culture Committee,

:41:03.:41:07.

starting with a double header, Rupert Murdoch and his son James,

:41:07.:41:11.

followed by Rebekah Brooks. It has to be the Murdochs which will be

:41:11.:41:14.

the most interesting moment. The extraordinary thing, in 42 years of

:41:14.:41:19.

owning newspapers in this country, Rupert Murdoch has never answered

:41:19.:41:22.

questions from a Commons select committee. He has done it in

:41:22.:41:25.

America and Australia, he has even answered questions from a Lords

:41:25.:41:29.

committee, they had to go to New York to do it. The interesting

:41:29.:41:34.

thing is, in the morning the culture select commit committee

:41:34.:41:41.

will meet and decide whether they will make the Murdochs and Rebekah

:41:41.:41:45.

Brooks swear on oath. Which is unusual. If the MPs do that and the

:41:45.:41:48.

witnesses don't tell the truth or tell lies, they could be prosecuted

:41:48.:41:52.

for perjury through the courts. On the other hand, there are MPs who

:41:52.:41:55.

worry that if they do that the Murdochs and Rebekah Brooks will

:41:55.:41:59.

clam up even more than they may well do so, relying on lawyers, and

:41:59.:42:03.

the legal investigations and so on. There is so many parts to this, it

:42:03.:42:08.

is difficult to know exactly what they will focus on in their time,

:42:08.:42:11.

what sort of questions will they try to get to? The Murdoch, they

:42:11.:42:14.

have only got them there for an hour, that is the schedule. It

:42:14.:42:19.

boils down to the age-old Watergate question, what do you know and when

:42:19.:42:23.

did you know it. In particular with the Murdochs, at what point did

:42:23.:42:27.

they realise that the hacking scandal extended well beyond the

:42:27.:42:31.

single rogue reporter, which of course was the News of the World

:42:31.:42:36.

line for many years, as advanced by Les Hinton, the former boss, when

:42:36.:42:40.

he addressed the culture select committee four years ago. The other

:42:40.:42:46.

thing MPs are bound to go on to the Murdochs and Rebekah Brooks is

:42:46.:42:50.

these extraordinary settlements News of the World had with Gordon

:42:50.:42:53.

Taylor, and the Professional Footballers Association, and Max

:42:53.:42:58.

Clifford, they were paid three quarters of a million pounds in

:42:58.:43:02.

compensation and legal costs over their phone hacking. Why were such

:43:02.:43:06.

huge sums paid, and in particular, when James Murdoch admitted the

:43:06.:43:10.

other day he had agreed those payouts, what was it, he said at

:43:10.:43:15.

the time he had done so without the full facts. What facts is it he

:43:15.:43:18.

knows now about those cases. That is clearly one of the many

:43:18.:43:21.

fascinating areas they will want to probe. Great questions we look

:43:21.:43:25.

forward to the answers tomorrow. A quick look at the front pages

:43:25.:43:35.
:43:35.:43:35.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 83 seconds

:43:35.:44:58.

The police are examining a laptop That's all tonight, we are back

:44:58.:45:02.

with more tomorrow, with among other things all the news of the

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:35.

committee hearing. Worth tuning in Good evening, cloudy and damp night

:45:35.:45:38.

tonight, means a pretty grey start into tomorrow morning. Brightness

:45:38.:45:42.

develop ago I way from some western coasts and hills, that brightness

:45:42.:45:51.

will be enough to add heavy showers through the afternoon. North West

:45:51.:45:55.

England still cloudy, one or two showers, further showers in the

:45:55.:45:59.

south. But there will be well scattered, one or two spots staying

:45:59.:46:05.

dry, brightness if not sunshine inbetween. The south coast is

:46:05.:46:08.

rather cloudy across Cornwall, northern parts of Devon, the

:46:08.:46:12.

morning showers we will see here will ease a bit. South eastern

:46:12.:46:15.

parts of Wales and to the west and north a predominantly cloudy day

:46:15.:46:19.

with little in the way of brightness. Some brightness in

:46:19.:46:23.

Northern Ireland, most dry and showers in the north. To the north

:46:23.:46:28.

plenty of cloud, and there will be some outbreaks of rain, mainly

:46:28.:46:33.

light and patchy. Prospects from Tuesday into Wednesday, there won't

:46:33.:46:38.

be a huge amounts of change. Huge showers across Scotland, the

:46:38.:46:41.

heaviest in the south west. For England and Wales, the difference

:46:41.:46:45.

from Tuesday to Wednesday will be again increases of cloud with more

:46:46.:46:50.

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