14/07/2011 Newsnight


14/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Hauled in for questioning at Westminster, vilified in his own

:00:10.:00:15.

Australian backyard and now the FBI are involved too. Newsnight

:00:15.:00:19.

examines the danger to Rupert Murdoch's global interests. Both

:00:19.:00:22.

Rupert, James and Rebekah Brooks will appear before MPs next week to

:00:22.:00:29.

answer questions. But, tonight, Mr Murdoch is on the

:00:29.:00:33.

offensive, calling Gordon Brown completely wrong. And claiming News

:00:33.:00:40.

Corp has only made minor mistakes in its handling of the crisis.

:00:40.:00:43.

We're joined live from Washington by Barbara Boxer, one of the

:00:43.:00:48.

senators calling for a full scale inquiry into whether Murdoch's men

:00:48.:00:54.

and women broke US law. We have an exclusive interview with

:00:54.:00:58.

a Saudi billionare Prince, who is News Corp's second largest

:00:58.:01:01.

shareholder. We hope the truth will come out. It is very important for

:01:01.:01:06.

me and my company, investors in News Corp for 20 years to get this

:01:06.:01:09.

in order. And are the troubles at News

:01:09.:01:13.

International just going to accelerate the demise of newspapers

:01:13.:01:18.

in this country. Also tonight we are deep in the

:01:18.:01:21.

mountains of western Libya, as the rebels open another front to get

:01:21.:01:26.

rid of Gadaffi. They may look a bit sinister, but

:01:26.:01:31.

beneath the masks they are doctors, lawyers, teachers, it is as if the

:01:31.:01:41.
:01:41.:01:48.

Rotary CluB went to war. Rupert Murdoch, the man who once

:01:48.:01:52.

leaders were desperate to curry favour, has bowed to desperate

:01:52.:01:59.

pressure to appear in front of MPs, along with his reluctant son, James,

:01:59.:02:03.

and Rebekah Brooks, about alleged phone hacking and bribes to

:02:03.:02:09.

policemen. The FBI are looking into whether or not News Corp hacked

:02:09.:02:14.

into the phones of victims of 9/11. Mr Rupert Murdoch just before we

:02:14.:02:19.

came on air, gave a robust defence to the newspapers.

:02:19.:02:24.

First of all, the committee, this morning, neither James nor Rupert

:02:24.:02:28.

were going to the committee? only person who was going to attend

:02:28.:02:38.
:02:38.:02:39.

was the CEO of News International, Rebekah Brooks was Gogol, but not

:02:39.:02:45.

Rupert and James. They wanted to threaten with everything they had,

:02:45.:02:50.

but it wasn't clear what powers they had if they declined. The

:02:50.:02:53.

deputy Serjeant at Arms served a summons to the News International

:02:53.:02:56.

lawyers, received a receipt for that summons, in response to that,

:02:56.:02:59.

the Murdochs this afternoon, through a letter from James Murdoch,

:02:59.:03:05.

said they would, in fact, accept this summons to appear, but they

:03:05.:03:08.

wanted to be very mindful, or the committee to be mindful that there

:03:08.:03:11.

were other investigations going on, not least the one by the police,

:03:11.:03:16.

and they didn't want the committee to trample all over it, and would

:03:17.:03:21.

do their best to answer questions without that problem. Will they be

:03:21.:03:24.

flanked by lawyers on Tuesday? will see all three in a line

:03:24.:03:27.

together. They did want to do it one at a time. I was speaking to

:03:27.:03:31.

people on the committee, they didn't think they could get. That

:03:31.:03:35.

they are having them three at a time. One of the people on the

:03:35.:03:40.

committee has said they cancelled everything for the weekend, we will

:03:40.:03:44.

spend the weekend working out what questions they ask them with

:03:44.:03:51.

counsel. Rupert Murdoch, who has kept his silence, and has choosen

:03:51.:03:54.

the Wall Street Journal as the organ to speak to us all from?

:03:54.:03:58.

that newspaper it is a newspaper he owns, we can probably rely on them

:03:58.:04:01.

to have faithfully recorded the quotation they have got from him.

:04:01.:04:06.

In that we will get a preview of the line he will take with the

:04:07.:04:10.

commity. On whether News Corp got it wrong, they said they handled it

:04:10.:04:14.

extremely well in every possible way, making minor mistakes. On the

:04:14.:04:19.

question whether his son, James Murdoch, has handled it well, he

:04:19.:04:23.

has handled it well and the BSkyB bid well. A lot of rubbish spoken

:04:23.:04:27.

in parliament, that is why he's looking forward to going to the

:04:27.:04:32.

committee to put it straight. was a rather large swipe at Gordon

:04:32.:04:35.

Brown in the Wall Street Journal? There was, Gordon Brown yesterday

:04:35.:04:39.

made a big rumbling roaring speech in the House of Commons were he

:04:39.:04:42.

accused every other politician under the sun, it seemed, of

:04:42.:04:46.

getting very, very close to Rupert Murdoch, except for him and he

:04:46.:04:49.

stood alone against the Murdoch empire. Today we got that from

:04:49.:04:52.

Rupert Murdoch, he got it entirely wrong, the Browns were always

:04:52.:04:57.

friends of our's until the Sun withdrew its support. One last

:04:57.:05:01.

thing, speculation Mr Murdoch says about the sale of his newspaper

:05:01.:05:04.

assets in order to extricate himself from, that there is a lot

:05:04.:05:07.

of speculation about that happening, Mr Murdoch says it is pure and

:05:07.:05:11.

total rubbish, give it the strongest possible denial you can

:05:11.:05:15.

give. Also another development today, it seems a further

:05:16.:05:19.

entanglement between the Met and former News of the World

:05:19.:05:24.

executives? Every day we learn t seems b more of this interaction

:05:24.:05:31.

between journalists, particular - to be more of this interaction

:05:31.:05:36.

between journalists and the police. Lisence lives the deputy editor of

:05:36.:05:42.

News of the World, 2003,-2009, under Jason Cowley. It turns out

:05:42.:05:46.

when he left News International, without stain on his character, he

:05:46.:05:55.

didn't have to resign. He went to work for the police. The Mayor of

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London is absolutely livid e wasn't told anything about this. When he

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found out this gentleman was working for the Metropolitan Police,

:06:02.:06:06.

in 2009, just after the time when they reassessed the evidence on

:06:07.:06:09.

News International, whether there was evidence, the mayor was livid,

:06:09.:06:14.

the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police was at Hendon

:06:14.:06:18.

Police Academy, handing out medal, the mayor rang him up and said get

:06:19.:06:24.

back here and talk to me. They had an hour-and-a-half in his office A

:06:24.:06:29.

letter has gone from the home of the commissioner to the

:06:29.:06:32.

Metropolitan Police asking what went on and why nobody was told

:06:32.:06:35.

about this. Let's talk more about now about the interview with Mr

:06:35.:06:40.

Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal, and his attack on Gordon Brown. I'm

:06:40.:06:45.

joined by the Times candidate, and Tory peer, who used to edit the

:06:45.:06:51.

Wall Street Journal, and the editor of the New Statesman, Jason Cowley.

:06:51.:06:55.

First of all, David Aaronovitch, clearly he is trying to minimise it

:06:55.:06:59.

in the Wall Street Journal. There are two message, one a public

:06:59.:07:03.

message, and a very big message of reassurance, back to people who

:07:03.:07:08.

work for what is always now called the Murdoch empire. Do you feel

:07:08.:07:13.

reassured? I do feel reassured. I wasn't looking forward to the Times

:07:13.:07:18.

being sold to a Big Society collective of cross word enthusiast,

:07:18.:07:24.

or people whom imagine to take over newspapers if Murdoch went away.

:07:24.:07:27.

He's in no position to make reassurances? I think he can try,

:07:27.:07:32.

but it is very difficult. Murdoch mur loves his newspaper, I think he

:07:32.:07:35.

would do - Rupert Murdoch loves his newspapers, I think he would do all

:07:35.:07:39.

he could to remain the owner of them. There may be other

:07:39.:07:43.

shareholders News Corp who may not have the same devotion to them.

:07:43.:07:46.

When he writes or communicates to the Wall Street Journal, that he's

:07:46.:07:50.

only made minor mistakes in the handling of this, and that is

:07:50.:07:55.

preceded by James Murdoch saying he regreted deeply the payout to one

:07:55.:08:01.

of the hacking victims of something like �750,000, the professional

:08:01.:08:05.

Football Association, Gordon Taylor, that doesn't show a minor mistake,

:08:05.:08:09.

does it? I think a lot of people will feel this was not a minor

:08:09.:08:12.

mistake. There is little to be gained at this stage by trying to

:08:12.:08:17.

play it down. If that's what his advisers are telling him. I would

:08:17.:08:23.

take issue with that. Two things we know about Murdoch, we never second

:08:23.:08:30.

guess what le do, closing news nuefs a stunning event. - closing

:08:30.:08:35.

News of the World was a stunning event. I thought he didn't believe

:08:35.:08:43.

in the her red try principle, but he does when it comes to his own -

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hereditary principle, but he does when it comes to his son. Yet,

:08:49.:08:54.

according to the Times this morning, James Murdoch didn't know they

:08:54.:08:59.

would drop the BSkyB all together? Which shows about his whole lack of

:08:59.:09:02.

judgment during the whole proceedings. He might not protect

:09:03.:09:08.

James Murdoch together, he might be the ruthless father, eventually?

:09:08.:09:14.

the News Corp shareholders will move against Rupert and force his

:09:14.:09:19.

hand in a way he wouldn't want. thought a strange section in that

:09:19.:09:24.

piece is choosing the Wall Street Journal to have an take on Gordon

:09:24.:09:27.

Brown? The Wall Street Journal thing is the first opportunity to

:09:27.:09:30.

give himself a chance to speak out at all. The whole Gordon Brown and

:09:30.:09:36.

Rupert Murdoch thing is becoming one of the most bizarre high-level

:09:36.:09:40.

soap operas we have available. We can track it back through Sarah

:09:40.:09:45.

Brown, and Rebekah Brooks's call about the cystic fibrosis. You have

:09:45.:09:48.

to say it is fabulously entertaining. What it means is

:09:48.:09:52.

another matter. It is more than fabulously entertaining, it is a

:09:52.:09:56.

deeply serious problem? I'm not sure it is a deeply serious problem

:09:56.:10:01.

so much as showing our former Prime Minister in a very unflattering

:10:01.:10:04.

light. I don't really blame Rupert Murdoch for trying to put that side

:10:04.:10:08.

of things in perspective. Nick Clegg this morning said, and I have

:10:08.:10:11.

no reason to disbelieve him that he had it on the best of authority

:10:11.:10:19.

that the first person to call Andy Coulson and commiserate with him on

:10:19.:10:22.

losing his job as editor of the News of the World was one Gordon

:10:22.:10:31.

Brown. It is bitterness on Brown's part. That explosion in the House

:10:31.:10:37.

was like Lear emerging from the storm raging. He wasn't in control

:10:37.:10:41.

of the facts. There is tremendous bitterness and anger. It is true

:10:41.:10:46.

Brown and Murdoch were close. Murdoch admired Brown's knowledge

:10:46.:10:56.
:10:56.:10:56.

of economics and economic history, Brown was a free marketeers, he's

:10:56.:11:01.

an Atlantices. Labour worked hard to court the Murdoch empire, brown

:11:01.:11:05.

can't start throwing out allegations in a wild and

:11:05.:11:09.

incoherent way. Brown seemed to admire Rupert Murdoch when he was

:11:09.:11:13.

publishing the Sun and the News of the World. He had the support of

:11:13.:11:16.

them. Just before the general election I travelled with Brown, we

:11:16.:11:21.

went to Newcastle a couple of days from the vote. I had to pass a

:11:21.:11:23.

message from someone close to Rupert Murdoch about what happened

:11:23.:11:27.

in the negotiations when the Sun moved against Gordon Brown, it came

:11:27.:11:30.

out against him on the morning of his speech. I mentioned the name of

:11:30.:11:34.

the person who was giving it, and Brown's face turned to stone and he

:11:34.:11:38.

hung his head in shame. You are staying to speak about the future

:11:38.:11:44.

of newspapers later on. The trouble with global empires is when one

:11:44.:11:48.

part snoozes, the other parts catch a cold. There is shivering in

:11:48.:11:52.

America and Australia now. In the US where Rupert Murdoch has huge

:11:52.:11:55.

holdings, Democrat senators have been calling for an investigation

:11:55.:11:58.

into whether News Corp broke the law by phone hacking or bribing

:11:58.:12:00.

officials. Tonight the FBI announced they were looking into

:12:00.:12:04.

the issue of whether the phones of the victims of 9/11 were hacked N a

:12:04.:12:09.

moment we will be joined live from Washington by one of those senators,

:12:09.:12:13.

Barbara Boxer. First this report. Rupert Murdoch's troubles may have

:12:13.:12:19.

broken out in the British corner of his empire, but the contagion is

:12:19.:12:23.

spreading fast, to affect his business worldwide. In his homeland,

:12:23.:12:27.

Australia, where he owns almost 150 titles, his company is checking

:12:27.:12:31.

that all editorial payments in the last three years have been

:12:31.:12:34.

legitimate. Politicians are now worried. Like, I think, most

:12:34.:12:38.

Australians, I have been pretty shocked and disgusted to see the

:12:38.:12:42.

revelations we have seen in the UK. After seeing some of the things

:12:42.:12:46.

that have been done to intrude on people's privacy. But more

:12:46.:12:49.

seriously the contagion spread to Murdoch's adopted home, the United

:12:49.:12:54.

States. Where he's now a naturalised citizen. His holdings

:12:54.:13:00.

include the New York Post and Wall Street Journal, the publishers

:13:00.:13:07.

Harper Collins, most of the skal nap Geographic Channel, most of

:13:08.:13:11.

20th century Fox, and the news channel, which has enabled Murdoch

:13:11.:13:18.

to play the same role in America as he has played in Britain. He is a

:13:18.:13:21.

conservative media outlet and sides with Republicans in Congress

:13:21.:13:25.

routinely and against the Democrats. There is a lot of liberal anger at

:13:25.:13:29.

Mr Murdoch over the years. I also think there have been liberal

:13:30.:13:33.

politician, Democrats who have been more loathe to criticise Mr Murdoch

:13:33.:13:39.

in the past, or Fox, for fear of having some of the reprecussions I

:13:39.:13:44.

know we have seen in the British politics. British politics don't

:13:44.:13:49.

want to be targets of the the news. Fox's show this week didn't discuss

:13:49.:13:53.

the troubles. This video of the panelists chatting through the ad

:13:53.:13:57.

break, shows them daring one another to do so. Anyone want to

:13:57.:14:00.

bring up the subject we are not talking about today for the

:14:00.:14:04.

streamers, I'm not going to touch it. In Congress concern is now

:14:04.:14:09.

growing. Especially since the suggestion, still unsubstantiated,

:14:09.:14:12.

that News of the World may have been involved in hacking the phones

:14:12.:14:17.

of 9/11 victims. Several senators have now called for investigations

:14:18.:14:21.

by the Department of Justice and the securities and exchanges

:14:21.:14:24.

commission, into the hacking allegations, and into the

:14:24.:14:29.

possibility that if Murdoch papers in Britain, paid police for stories,

:14:29.:14:33.

that may have breached the US foreign corrupt practices act,

:14:33.:14:37.

which bans US companies from paying bribes to foreign officials. Last

:14:37.:14:40.

week when the story broke, this became sort of an interesting story

:14:40.:14:44.

to Americans, we found it some what titilating and fascinating as a

:14:44.:14:47.

story, I don't think it necessarily was penetrating the consciousness

:14:47.:14:51.

of the greater American public. This week, on the other hand, I

:14:51.:14:56.

think we're starting to see greater American interest in the story, as

:14:56.:14:58.

the possibility that it could affect Americans and not just

:14:58.:15:03.

people in Britain has come out. Tonight FBI sources confirmed

:15:03.:15:06.

unofficially that the agency will look into claims of possible

:15:06.:15:12.

hacking in the US. But as political concern spreads, Wall Street is

:15:12.:15:18.

also becoming increase league worried about Rupert Murdoch. News

:15:18.:15:22.

Corp's share priest - increasingly worried about Rupert Murdoch. News

:15:22.:15:26.

Corp's share price has dropped. It is fight lawing suit by one group

:15:26.:15:36.
:15:36.:15:52.

Some believe the corporation may pull out of the newspaper business.

:15:52.:15:56.

Many doubt that James Murdoch will ever succeed his father as its head.

:15:56.:16:01.

I think investors in America are needing to know that there is a

:16:01.:16:06.

capable leader, and there is some question now about whether James

:16:06.:16:10.

Murdoch is that capable leader to actually run the enterprise. The

:16:10.:16:16.

other thing the shareholders need is reassurance the advertisers

:16:16.:16:20.

won't flee the newspaper titles. In the worst case scenario, should you

:16:20.:16:24.

get the fleeing of advertisers here, that you have here for News of the

:16:24.:16:29.

World, the only other option then is to actually kill those brands in

:16:29.:16:37.

the way that News of the World was yuet niceed. Very likely there will

:16:37.:16:42.

be at some point, I'm not saying this will be in the near term, an

:16:42.:16:46.

entire new management at News Corp, which is a fine company. It has

:16:47.:16:51.

great assets and a terrific future, but the Murdoch influence, despite

:16:52.:16:56.

their basically de facto control ownership, is going to be

:16:56.:16:59.

diminished. Last year Rupert Murdoch was master of a business

:16:59.:17:03.

empire, commanding global revenues of about �20 billion, now he's

:17:03.:17:13.
:17:13.:17:14.

unable to turn the tide of allegations against his corporation.

:17:14.:17:20.

Senator Barbara Boxer joins us now from Washington? Also we must

:17:20.:17:26.

remember you are a former journalist with Pacific Sun. Let's

:17:26.:17:29.

begin now with our understanding that the FBI is looking into the

:17:29.:17:33.

possibility that the victims of 9/11 were hacked. Is this the

:17:33.:17:38.

investigation you wanted? It is absolutely part of it. I teemed up

:17:38.:17:41.

with Senior Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the commerce committee,

:17:41.:17:45.

I'm a senior member of that committee, we have jurisdiction

:17:45.:17:50.

over the broadcasters, folks, the media as a whole. We wrote to the

:17:50.:17:54.

security and exchange commission and we wrote to the Department of

:17:54.:17:59.

Justice, the FBI is part of the Department of Justice, asking them

:17:59.:18:03.

to look specifically into the possibility that two American laws

:18:03.:18:09.

were broken. One, the foreign practices Corruption Act, and

:18:09.:18:14.

secondly, the called wiretap act. Any American corporation has to

:18:14.:18:18.

comply with these laws. Rupert Murdoch decided he wanted to become

:18:18.:18:25.

an American citizen, I don't blame him. America is the greatest place

:18:25.:18:30.

of the world, I say to you. The fact of the matter is he became an

:18:30.:18:34.

American citizen, his corporation is American. He needs to obey

:18:34.:18:39.

American law. The stories coming out of your country about bribing

:18:39.:18:43.

police official, on its face, that is not allowed under the foreign

:18:43.:18:48.

corrupt practices act. The fact that he may have hacked into

:18:48.:18:53.

victims of, the familiar lose of the victims of 9/11, that is not a-

:18:53.:18:58.

families of the victims of 9/11, that is not aed load. I'm right in

:18:58.:19:02.

saying there is no evidence of hacking of victims of 9/11, it is

:19:02.:19:10.

just allegations at this stage? Absolutely. Let's look at the

:19:10.:19:14.

hackings of phones here and also the bribing of officers here. Under

:19:14.:19:20.

that act that you talked about, that would mean that foreign

:19:20.:19:25.

Corruption Act, would mean that he could then be divests of his

:19:25.:19:35.
:19:35.:19:42.

newspapers, be prosecuted in America? He cannot, as an American,

:19:42.:19:50.

Or a citizen of anywhere, bribe other people. This past, and Jimmy

:19:50.:19:54.

Carter signed this into law, and we began to see a higher level of

:19:54.:20:02.

morality in our corporations. It is very important. Right away, any

:20:02.:20:05.

type of bribery of officials, or any other people trying to get

:20:05.:20:09.

information, that is just not allowed. So it would be breaking

:20:10.:20:14.

that law. In the Wall Street Journal, the new edition of the

:20:14.:20:18.

Wall Street Journal, Rupert Murdoch has spoken to the Wall Street

:20:18.:20:21.

Journal and said, as far as he's concerned the conduct of the

:20:21.:20:25.

investigation into News Corp's activities, he has only made minor

:20:25.:20:29.

errors in that. What do you make of it, given that this morning neither

:20:29.:20:33.

he nor his son were prepared to appear in front of a committee of

:20:33.:20:38.

MPs, but at the end of the day they were put in a position where they

:20:38.:20:45.

absolutely have to? To say it is minor problems. You can correct me

:20:45.:20:50.

if I'm wrong, more than 4,000 people in Britain were hacked in to.

:20:50.:20:54.

Minor problems in the way they have conducted themselves in the inquiry

:20:54.:21:02.

so far? I thought he was saying there was minor problems with what

:21:02.:21:07.

he did. I can't comment on the way he has responded. Although the

:21:07.:21:13.

initial reports were that he wasn't going toself testify, now he's

:21:13.:21:17.

changed his - to testify, now he's changed his mind, that is a good

:21:17.:21:22.

thing. But what he did is not minor. Do you think it might be possible

:21:22.:21:26.

that you would request that he appears in front of a Senate

:21:26.:21:30.

Committee? He has always appeared before the Congress committee on

:21:30.:21:33.

other matters it's an American corporation and citizen, depending

:21:33.:21:39.

on how this goes, I have spoken to Chairman Rockefeller, and it is

:21:39.:21:43.

possible we could call him, we are not ready to do that at this time.

:21:43.:21:50.

But the FBI is focused and on this. I have to say, it is hard for me to

:21:50.:21:53.

understand how anybody could sanction, anybody could sanction

:21:53.:21:57.

doing some of the things they reportedly did. When you look at

:21:57.:22:02.

that little girl's murder, in your country, and what is reported to

:22:02.:22:09.

have happened there, the possible hacking over here. The possible

:22:09.:22:14.

hacking of phones of families who lost soldiers in Afghanistan and

:22:14.:22:20.

Iraq, British families. It takes my breath away. Senator, if they are

:22:20.:22:24.

found guilty, if the executives are found guilty of involvement in any

:22:24.:22:27.

of these things. What would be sanctions that could be put upon

:22:27.:22:31.

them on your side of the Atlantic? Well, right now there are many

:22:31.:22:36.

things, I told you, there are two laws here, that come into play.

:22:36.:22:40.

There is, this is a public corporation, they sell shares, if

:22:40.:22:45.

they hid payments, you know, bribery payments, from shareholders,

:22:45.:22:50.

that is a whole other civil penalty. Then f they hacked in to phones,

:22:50.:22:57.

without a warrant, obviously, they don't have a warrant, that's

:22:57.:23:02.

criminal. The corrupt practices act could be civil or criminal. So lots

:23:02.:23:10.

could happen, the FCC has the ability to take away a license from

:23:10.:23:16.

the media corporation kpro that break the law. It is too soon to

:23:16.:23:20.

way what, why and how. There is one criticism, that actually it would

:23:21.:23:26.

suit the Democrats greatry if for example the Fox channels were

:23:26.:23:30.

emasculated before the election in 2012, and that this has become

:23:30.:23:34.

quite a partisan issue for you? my goodness, if you break the law,

:23:34.:23:40.

in our country, whether you are a Republican, or a Democrat, or a

:23:40.:23:44.

liberal or Conservative or moderate, you break the law, you pay the

:23:44.:23:46.

price. That is as simple as it gets. It

:23:46.:23:55.

has nothing to do with your political persuasion.

:23:55.:24:01.

News Corp sharehold ertsers have had to watch as - shareholders have

:24:01.:24:05.

had to watch as their shares have dropped. It might get worse

:24:05.:24:13.

depending on the outcome of the myriad of inquiries. Ofcom may make

:24:13.:24:15.

the company divulge itself of the existing shares they have now. If

:24:15.:24:21.

the Murdochs are on the back foot what about the other shareholders.

:24:21.:24:25.

We have an exclusive interview with the Prince who owns 7% of News Corp.

:24:25.:24:31.

If you want to see the superrich at play, then Cannes, on a beautiful

:24:31.:24:35.

summer afternoon is where you need to be. Even by the standards of the

:24:36.:24:40.

wealth that you find here, on the French Riviera, the man I'm about

:24:40.:24:49.

to meet is wealthy, his name is Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal Alsaud.

:24:49.:24:57.

The Prince is known as the Arab Warren Buffet,'s a nephew of the

:24:57.:25:07.
:25:07.:25:09.

Saudi king, but the vast majority of his wealth, he says, is self-

:25:09.:25:15.

made. Owns the second-biggest stake in News Corp, the company that owns

:25:15.:25:20.

Rupert Murdoch's entire, global media empire. We're on our way to

:25:20.:25:25.

the Prince's yacht, which featured in a James Bond film. Before

:25:25.:25:33.

meeting the man himself, it is worth putting His Royal Highness

:25:33.:25:38.

and sharehold nears perspective. This Prince owns 7%, he's a

:25:38.:25:43.

powerful voice in the company. The Prince is far, far richer than

:25:43.:25:48.

Rupert Murdoch. He's ort �20 billion, Rupert Murdoch, by

:25:48.:25:54.

contrast, is worth a relatively modest �7.5 billion.

:25:54.:26:04.
:26:04.:26:06.

I met the Prince on an upper deck of his yacht. We hope as think

:26:06.:26:09.

thing unfolds the truth will come out. It is very important for me

:26:09.:26:14.

and my company, investors in News Corporation, for 20 years, to get

:26:14.:26:20.

this in order. Ethics to me are very important. There are some

:26:20.:26:23.

terribly unethical things taking place at News Corporation. All four

:26:23.:26:26.

things, hacking into the telephone of a murdered teenager, hacking

:26:26.:26:30.

into the telephone of relatives of British soldiers who have died in

:26:30.:26:34.

action. These are awful things? would like to correct you, the

:26:34.:26:38.

problems have been at the News of the World and not News Corp level.

:26:38.:26:41.

I would like to differentiate between News Corp conglomerate and

:26:41.:26:47.

the News of the World, that was shut down. Unfortunately the

:26:47.:26:50.

tactics used by the tabloid newspapers in the UK were done not

:26:50.:26:54.

only by News of the World, but other newspapers and tabloid

:26:54.:26:58.

newspapers also. James Murdoch is in an uncomfortable position,

:26:58.:27:03.

either you knew what was going on, and didn't tell the British

:27:03.:27:06.

authorities, so he's liable to a criminal prosecution, or he didn't

:27:06.:27:12.

know, which means as a manager he wasn't in control of his own

:27:12.:27:16.

organisation. On either way he doesn't look good? We have to wait

:27:16.:27:21.

for the commission and wait for the result, why predict and pre-empt

:27:21.:27:26.

what will come out of it. The facts will come out and soon hopefully.

:27:26.:27:32.

One of the dangers for you as a major organisation is how the

:27:32.:27:37.

contagion has spread. There are calls in the US for a Senate, there

:27:38.:27:41.

is criticism of Murdoch and his organisation across the world. This

:27:41.:27:49.

is a serious problem for you as an investor? I hope the matter doesn't

:27:49.:27:52.

get overpoliticised. Because clearly some politicians in the UK

:27:52.:27:58.

and others places would like to set the record clear and take revenge

:27:58.:28:04.

from Mr Murdoch's conglomerate. I think this thing should not be

:28:04.:28:08.

overpolitic yoised, we should give the commission - overpoliticised,

:28:08.:28:13.

we should give the commission an opportunity. According toly we will

:28:13.:28:19.

see how the thing went up. accordingly we will see how things

:28:19.:28:23.

went up. What have you been saying to Rupert Murdoch about what is

:28:23.:28:28.

happening? I say to Rupert and James Murdoch, who are my friend

:28:28.:28:34.

and allies, and my company in Saudi Arabia. I said they have to co-

:28:34.:28:43.

operate fully, and they will co- operate fully with the group sorted

:28:43.:28:47.

by the Prime Minister. Speaking from my dealings with them there is

:28:47.:28:52.

nothing but high ethics in the past 0 years. BSkyB was a key part of

:28:52.:28:57.

the strategy for growth of News Corp? It was a key strategy, but at

:28:57.:29:00.

the end of the day, you have to understand that News Corp is a

:29:00.:29:05.

profitable company, even without the 61% of BSkyB. BSkyB has been

:29:05.:29:10.

shelved, but it is not dead forever. You think News Corp might come back

:29:10.:29:14.

and make a bid again for BSkyB? don't talk on behalf of management,

:29:14.:29:18.

that is Mr James and Rupert Murdoch, but today they have withdrawn, and

:29:18.:29:24.

based on the UK, the minimum period to come back is six months. We will

:29:24.:29:27.

have to see what happens after six months. There is a lot of

:29:27.:29:30.

controversy around one key manager at News International, Rebekah

:29:30.:29:36.

Brooks, should she stay? indications are for her involvement

:29:36.:29:41.

in this matter, for sure she has to go. Ethics for me is very important.

:29:41.:29:48.

Definitely. I will not accept the tirade to de rail the company -

:29:48.:29:54.

derail the company that has lady or man with a shriller of doubt on her

:29:54.:30:04.
:30:04.:30:04.

part. James Murdoch f he had known and didn't do anything about it,

:30:04.:30:09.

would you say to Rupert, your son has to go too? From my dealings

:30:09.:30:13.

with James Murdoch, it is impossible for them to know what is

:30:13.:30:23.

going Onyango the News of the World level.

:30:23.:30:28.

I'm with my panel now. Just picking up the very endpoint there. Huge

:30:28.:30:36.

defence by the second-biggest shareholder of James Murdoch, and a

:30:36.:30:40.

lukewarm defence of Rebekah Brooks. He's right to say it depend ones

:30:40.:30:44.

what the investigation throws up. At the helm of any organisation you

:30:44.:30:47.

can't have someone who is found to have done wrong, but at the moment

:30:47.:30:52.

it is not proven. Very keen on ethics he says as well.

:30:52.:30:55.

What he was also saying, interestingly, which won't be music

:30:55.:30:59.

to your ears. That he didn't seem to worry they are divesting

:30:59.:31:03.

themselves from the newspapers and leave broading and on-line, and the

:31:03.:31:11.

way was open to make a new bid for BSkyB. Newspapers were in a fair

:31:11.:31:15.

bit of trouble way before any of this became news. There will be a

:31:15.:31:19.

temporary blip for people like the Sunday Mirror and the People, with

:31:19.:31:22.

the News of the World not being there. We have been fiercely

:31:22.:31:27.

competitive and working out how to deal with the new world of first,

:31:27.:31:30.

24 hours news, and then the Internet, trying to make it work

:31:30.:31:36.

for us financially. How do you go about that personally, when you're

:31:36.:31:40.

writing a column do you put outside all social media and hope they will

:31:40.:31:44.

read the paper? Fpbgts you use every mechanism you can to put

:31:44.:31:48.

yourself out there. Of course you do, not just yourself but your

:31:48.:31:52.

colleagues too. I'm fiercely proud of the newspaper I work for and the

:31:52.:32:00.

work it does. It is a hugely professional organisation. And yet,

:32:00.:32:04.

like the Guardian, which relaunched six years ago, has had the benefit

:32:04.:32:10.

of some stunning scoops and great journalism. Yet has seen its

:32:10.:32:13.

circulation continuing to decline, like so many newspapers have done

:32:13.:32:19.

for the last 40 years. You can see why a Saudi Prince taking a world

:32:19.:32:23.

view might say, we like the broadcasting bits, but newspapers

:32:23.:32:28.

not so good. Newspapers are good things to have. I would be very

:32:28.:32:32.

reluctant to see them disappear. shouldn't lose sight of the fact

:32:32.:32:37.

that the Times and other papers do fantastic journalism, and serve a

:32:37.:32:41.

very important purpose? That might be the case, but are people

:32:41.:32:47.

prepared to pay for them. I think we can be too alarmist about the

:32:47.:32:51.

future of newspapers in this country. There are some

:32:51.:32:54.

extraordinary successful organisations, the Mail is selling

:32:54.:33:00.

making a profit, backed by this extraordinary web operation, now

:33:00.:33:05.

celebrity fixated, but successful. And taking market share in the

:33:05.:33:09.

states. The telegraph group have gone back into profitability,

:33:09.:33:15.

containing cost, extra strong linked journalism, and they are

:33:15.:33:24.

moving towards a meted pay wall. Are people under 25 going to pay

:33:24.:33:29.

for a metered pay wall? That is the challenge, how do you get young

:33:30.:33:39.
:33:40.:33:41.

people to pay for couldn't tent. - content. Simply for newspaper, I'm

:33:41.:33:47.

more optimistic about magazines and the whole thing about long form and

:33:47.:33:51.

magazine craft, magazine photography You will pay for

:33:51.:33:55.

quality. What model for seven days? In seven days you can take out a

:33:55.:33:59.

lot of cost. That will have to happen. It has already happened

:33:59.:34:03.

with the Observer and the Guardian, it is happening with the Telegraph

:34:03.:34:06.

group, it is bound to happen with the Times and Sunday Times, they

:34:06.:34:09.

have already said they will look at that. The big problem for

:34:09.:34:14.

newspapers a lot of people have been prepared to pay, but only for

:34:14.:34:17.

salacious gossip. That is one of the reasons where we are in this

:34:17.:34:20.

mess now. Will daily newspapers survive, what is the model, do you

:34:20.:34:23.

think? I think they will have to change, because one result of this,

:34:23.:34:28.

one way or another, is that salacious gossip on the scale it

:34:28.:34:32.

has been printed is not going to be there any more. Do you think you

:34:32.:34:36.

might go to a position where you have an on-line paper from Monday

:34:36.:34:42.

to Friday, and a fabulous ten supplements at the weekend. What we

:34:42.:34:46.

are discovering from the on-line content, who people like about it

:34:46.:34:50.

is it looks like a newspaper. They want to he will foo the newspaper

:34:50.:34:57.

is involved in it. Your pay wall is the wrong one, the Financial Times,

:34:57.:35:01.

it is not just salacious gossip, it is paper that will work. Some

:35:01.:35:05.

people will pay for quality, but numbers are small, compared with

:35:05.:35:11.

the numbers who are prepared to buy the News of the World. We are being

:35:11.:35:16.

parochial, India is a huge growing newspaper plarbgt. That is exactly

:35:16.:35:20.

where Rupert Murdoch - market. That is exactly where Rupert Murdoch can

:35:20.:35:23.

go now. NATO's campaign in Libya is

:35:23.:35:28.

approaching the four-month mark, with little sign of Gaddafi's

:35:28.:35:30.

regime close to collapse. International pressure is growing

:35:30.:35:34.

on the rebels for negotiations to begin with the Government, perhaps

:35:34.:35:37.

even with members of the Gaddafi family. How much time do the rebels

:35:37.:35:41.

have, is there still a chance they can overhe throw the colonel. We

:35:41.:35:47.

report from the rebel held mountains in the west of Libya.

:35:47.:35:53.

The Tripoli brigade. "we are lions" they chant. These are the men the

:35:53.:35:58.

rebels say will strike the final blow against Colonel Gaddafi,

:35:58.:36:06.

liberating the capital. Most are from Tripoli, they fled at

:36:06.:36:09.

the start of the uprising. Their commanders are telling them it

:36:09.:36:13.

could only be matter of weeks before they return. Their families

:36:13.:36:22.

are still there, so they hide their faces. They may look a bit sinister.

:36:22.:36:27.

But beneath the masks they are doctors, lawyers, teachers. It is

:36:27.:36:37.
:36:37.:36:45.

as if the rotary club went to war. They are fighting for high ideals,

:36:45.:36:51.

these don't seem the kind of men to accept a grubby compromise with the

:36:51.:36:58.

regime. The rebels' hopes of marching on the capital lie here,

:36:58.:37:05.

in the mountains. Across the plain below, Tripoli is a mere 60 miles

:37:05.:37:13.

away. Just months ago, rebel held towns in the mountains were under

:37:13.:37:18.

siege. Battered by the loyalists' heavy artillery.

:37:18.:37:23.

But the rebels brokeout, and just a couple of big towns now stand

:37:23.:37:29.

between them and the road to Tripoli.

:37:29.:37:33.

But this isn't a regular army, it often seems like quite a sleepy

:37:33.:37:36.

little war. There is a lot of sitting around

:37:36.:37:41.

inbetween the fighting, and in that the Libyan war is no different from

:37:41.:37:45.

any other. The rebels do seem to have some forward momentum, in this

:37:45.:37:49.

part of the frontline, at least. But they are short of everything.

:37:49.:37:55.

Food, fuel, weapons, ammunition and money. That means they are not

:37:55.:37:59.

moving as fast as they would like, or NATO. The Americans are running

:37:59.:38:03.

out of patience, the British are running out of place, and the

:38:03.:38:12.

French want to open negotiations with elements of the regime.

:38:12.:38:17.

For ordinary fighters, though, the focus is on the next battle. If

:38:17.:38:22.

Raul goes to plan, this will be in the small - if all goes to plan,

:38:22.:38:28.

this will be in the small town nearby. The rebels summoned the

:38:28.:38:34.

tribal leader there, they told him he had 48 hours to evacuate

:38:34.:38:38.

citizens before they take fire. The rebels are confident and believe

:38:38.:38:44.

things are going their way. So at the first sound of gunfire they

:38:44.:38:49.

complacently assure us it is just their own men having a bit of a

:38:49.:38:58.

market practice. It was Government loyalists mount ago surprise attack.

:38:58.:39:07.

It is a nasty shock for the inexperienced troops. They spot

:39:07.:39:17.
:39:17.:39:19.

vehicles toward them, they realise they are being surrounded. With

:39:19.:39:25.

frightening rapidity, the rebel frontline collapses. Slow, slow.

:39:25.:39:31.

I'm getting tout get some shots. Tim, stay in. We run. So does

:39:32.:39:41.
:39:42.:39:43.

everyone else. They halt a few miles down the road.

:39:43.:39:49.

There is an argument over whether or not to go back to fight. He says

:39:49.:39:58.

they have only one case of bullets, what can they do with that.

:39:58.:40:01.

Other towns have plenty of ammunition, but keep it for

:40:01.:40:09.

themselves. A sign of some disunity beneath the ref - revolutionary

:40:09.:40:16.

slogans. That evening, though, the rebels

:40:16.:40:20.

counter-attack. Hundreds of men are pushed up, by the end of the day

:40:21.:40:25.

they had won back all the ground they had lost in the morning.

:40:25.:40:33.

Finally they were outside the town of Assaba, once again.

:40:33.:40:38.

The Gaddafi forces are using civilians as human shields this man

:40:38.:40:45.

who is a rebel field commander says. They warned citizen they should

:40:45.:40:49.

leave because the rebels would attack, we will still take the town

:40:49.:40:53.

in 48 hours. In getting this far, the rebels had shown fighting

:40:53.:40:57.

spirit, that more than the skill may determine the outcome of this

:40:57.:41:04.

conflict. But the regime's loyalists had fought hard too.

:41:04.:41:12.

Looking at the battlefield, Colonel Gaddafi might think he can hang on.

:41:13.:41:19.

So it time to talk to the regime. A plane carrying rebel ministers from

:41:19.:41:24.

Benghazi, lands on a mountain road, converted into an air strip.

:41:24.:41:31.

Gaddafi and his family have to leave unconditionally. I don't know

:41:31.:41:38.

if any view officially in the cabinet that I represent, that look

:41:38.:41:47.

into all that believe we are ready to negotiate. The key issue is we

:41:47.:41:53.

need the military situation to change. The reason that everyone is

:41:53.:41:57.

running for and clamouring for a political solution, is so far on

:41:57.:42:01.

the military side they haven't done as well. Unless we do that, the

:42:01.:42:10.

rest of the world, obviously, needs to find a solution to this conflict.

:42:10.:42:13.

You are the Finance Minister, but everything is short here as well,

:42:13.:42:17.

as you know, there is one Kalashnikov between four men, there

:42:17.:42:21.

is no fuel not enough food or ammunition. How do you address

:42:21.:42:26.

this? One of the issues that our friend, everywhere, they haven't

:42:26.:42:30.

really, they are always to the level that they should be. They

:42:30.:42:35.

committed themselves to let us use some of our money. We are not

:42:35.:42:40.

asking anyone to give us money, this is our friingen money and I'm

:42:40.:42:47.

tired of saying that. The rebels haven't met all the international

:42:47.:42:50.

community's expectations either. There were reports of looting in

:42:50.:42:54.

the last place they captured. The rebels move in and Government

:42:54.:43:04.
:43:04.:43:06.

supporters flee, terrified. They leave behind ghost towns.

:43:06.:43:16.
:43:16.:43:43.

Human Rights Watch spoke to former The rebels would still like us to

:43:43.:43:49.

think of them as they think of themselves, the good guys.

:43:49.:43:54.

These are the men of Al-Zawahiri, their uprising was crushed by

:43:54.:43:58.

Colonel Gaddafi's tanks, so they took to the hills. We have pressure

:43:58.:44:02.

on our families, they are searching our homes nearly every day. All of

:44:02.:44:08.

us we don't have military. I'm an engineer, I'm a senior engineer,

:44:08.:44:12.

but now I'm holding guns and I'm fighting. Even if this war takes

:44:13.:44:21.

long-term, we are not going back, you know. There is no retreat.

:44:21.:44:27.

fighters seem in no doubt of their eventual victory. Their few tanks

:44:27.:44:37.

will roll into Tripoli soon, they say. But Colonel Gaddafi has

:44:37.:44:41.

reportedly sent his best army unit, to stop these rebels. They are

:44:41.:44:49.

apparently in the last big town on the way to the capital. The

:44:49.:44:52.

colonel's fate and that of the Libyan revolution, could be decided

:44:52.:44:56.

here in the mountains. That report there.

:44:56.:45:06.
:45:06.:45:06.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 60 seconds

:45:06.:46:07.

Tomorrow morning's front pages now. That's all for Newsnight tonight,

:46:07.:46:11.

if you want more advise the website to read all about it and watch -

:46:11.:46:21.
:46:21.:46:43.

visit the website to read all about A much brighter day on Friday,

:46:43.:46:47.

across East Anglia and Kent, sunshine here. Further west, well

:46:47.:46:51.

the opposite is true, after some sunshine on Thursday it is a much

:46:51.:46:55.

gloomier prospect on Friday, outbreaks of rain creeping in. Some

:46:55.:46:59.

of the rain may arrive to the west of the Pennines. In north-east

:46:59.:47:03.

England places looking fine with sunshine. Warmer, brighter day

:47:03.:47:08.

across East Anglia, temperatures into 25 in London. Across the south

:47:08.:47:12.

west, after a bright start, we will see the cloud thickening up.

:47:12.:47:16.

Eventually outbreaks of rain will trickle their way into Devon and

:47:16.:47:19.

Cornwall, the wet weather arriving into the west of Wales. Eastern

:47:19.:47:23.

Wales, we will not see the rain until late in the day. After a

:47:23.:47:26.

bright day on through, it is all change for Northern Ireland too. A

:47:26.:47:31.

glum day. The rain not too heavy, but light rain and drizzle for most

:47:31.:47:35.

of the day. The rain heading into western Scotland. Which parts of

:47:35.:47:40.

the east coast will stay dry and bright. Into the weekend it turns

:47:40.:47:44.

cooler, wetter and windier, heavy showers expected on Saturday,

:47:44.:47:54.
:47:54.:47:58.

across the north of the UK. Any sun A raft of showers on Saturday a

:47:58.:48:01.

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