22/07/2011 Newsnight


Join Mishal Husain for more developments in the phone-hacking story.

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Tonight, Norway reals from an unprecedented terrorist attack.


First a car bomb, then a gunman at a youth camp kills at least ten


people. Parts of Oslo now look like a war zone. Suspicion immediately


fell on Al-Qaeda, now there are other theories emerging, including


home-grown anarchist and far right groups. With the number of dead


rising, we will speak to the Mayor of Oslo and the British Ambassador


there. Also tonight, we obtain evidence of


phone hacking beyond News International. We have been told by


a former Sunday Mirror reporter that hacking fopbs phones was rife


at that paper too. We will put that to an ex-Sunday Mirror journalist


and one of the MPs leading the charge against phone hacking.


Rembering Lucian Freud, through the subject of one of his most


celebrated paintings. Good evenings, this has been


Norway's blackest day since the Second World War. With two deadly


attacks in and around Oslo in the space of a few hours. One struck at


the heart of the Government area, the other, a youth camp of the


governing Labour Party. By the latest count, 17 people have died,


Al-Qaeda was suspected but there's also the possibility that this was


the work of a neej - Norwegian extremist group. The Prime Minister


there has said the gunman in custody for the second attack is a


Norwegian citizen. A cry for help from outside Norway's shattered


Government headquarters this afternoon. Minutes after a bomb


blew the building open. Shattering the mid-summer peace of a normally


quiet capital. At first all was chaos. With debris scattered all


around, and reports of victims trapped amid the rubble. It was


soon announced that the Prime Minister, Thorvald Stoltenberg was


safe, the police say seven people lost their lives. For Norwegians


completely unaccustomed to terrorism, it is inhe can


publicable and deeply shocking. it is inexplicable and deeply


shocking. We thought that something like this would happen one day, but


not at this scale. All of Oslo could hear the tremendous blast. We


thought it was lightning striking everywhere close to us. I certainly


did, I thought it was lightning outside my house, but it was a


massive bomb in the centre of town. The people walking around in town


now looking at the bomb damages, these are houses we have seen all


our life, now the windows are gone and they are damaged. It is


shocking, something like this, happening here, in Oslo, no, no, it


is not supposed to be possible. News of more horror followed


shortly afterwards, from the even more unlikely setting of an island


in a lake near Oslo. Here were Norway's governing Labour


Party was holding its annual youth conference, a gunman, who has now


been arrested, opened fire with an automatic weapon. At the same time


there is coming really strange reports from this youth camp that


the shooter there, he was talking Norwegian, and he had blonde hair,


and he looks like a Scandinavian, and what is this, we really don't


understand what is happening? We always thought if somebody would


take us, it would be a foreign terrorist group. And if there is


Norwegians involved in this, it is very, very difficult to understand


what is actually happening. And also the violence of it, what is


happening in this youth camp. This execution-style killings. There


were Twitter reports of terrified teenagers hiding in bushes, and


attempting to swim to safety. But police now say nine or ten were


killed. So far, though, there is no clear theory about who might be to


blame. The three possibilities are some kind of far right group in


Norway, which is possible, but there is a very large device in the


centre of Oslo, some kind of Islamist group, again it is


feasible, but really coming very much out of the blue. Or just


possibly a Libyan connection. The point about the Libyan connection


is Gaddafi claimed three weeks ago he would strike at NATO targets,


but this double attack on the youth group as well as on the centre of


Oslo rather rules that out. This is why we're really in the realms of


speculation at a very difficult time for the Norwegians.


shooting on the island, where the Prime Minister was due to speak


tomorrow, lends some credence to the idea that the attacks may have


had their origin in Norwegian domestic politics. Others think


Islamist militancy is more likely. Last year three Muslim immigrants


to nor way, supposedly with links to Al-Qaeda, were arrested for


allegedly planning a terrorist operation. But there's no evidence


yet, that today's attacks did have an Islamist origin. Only


suggestions of possible motives. Norway may have been targeted


because, besides its participation in the air operation in Libya, it


also has a small contingent of troops in Afghanistan. Or there may


still be anger that a Norwegian newspaper reprinted several years


ago, cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, originally published in


Denmark. Or the attacks may be linked to plans to prosecute this


man, an Islamist activist of Iraqi Kurdish origin, accused of


threatening to kill Norwegian politicians. So far there are no


answers. Beyond a confirmation that the gunman on the island was


Norwegian. That points back perhaps to a domestic motive. But the


priority in Oslo tonight is to calm people's fears. TRANSLATION: This


evening, and this night, we will take care of each other. Comfort


each other, talk to each other. And stand together. Tomorrow we will


show the world that the Norwegian democracy will be stronger when it


counts. We will find the guilty, and hold them responsible. The most


important thing is to save human lives. But with such devastation in


their midst, it will take many norges a long time to come to terms


with - Norwegians a long time to come to terms with what's happened


in their usually calm country. Our security correspondent is with


me now. Where is the finger of suspicion pointing right now, with


all the new information that has been emerging? It has shifted


through the day. Initially when it was the car bomb, outside


Government office, that looked like Al-Qaeda, that was the suspicion,


that this might be because of troops in Afghanistan, or one of


the other reasons we heard about. But then the shooting at Utoeya


began to ING chat picture a little bit. Shooting people is something


we saw in the Mumbai attack, this looked like an unusual place to go


to shoot people, at a political youth rally. It wasn't a typical


search for a simple mass casualty target, you would normally see from


Al-Qaeda much that was the first suggestion that it was something


different. The person looked Nordic, we had confirmation that the person


arrested was Norwegian, and there is a link between the events. He


was seen in Oslo earlier, he's probably behind both events. That


has shifted the focus towards some kind of person with a political


grievance. Some kind of domestic extremist, who targeted first the


Prime Minister's office, and then a political youth camp from the Prime


Minister's party. That is very much more where the focus is going.


Officials are still saying they don't want to speculate and say


definitively what they think was behind the take. Which means at the


moment there is still plenty of different theories in answer to the


question of why Norway? Those theories are still in play, a


Norwegian who might have been radicalised, that's why you can't


rule out an Al-Qaeda link theory. But the balance has rifted towards


some kind of agrieved individual. But the question is an individual


by themselves capable of this, this is a big car bomb. It is not always


easy to build the car bombs. Even with gos sick extremism, like the


Oklahoma City bomb, Timothy McVeigh had helpers. There will be


questions about who else was involved and are they still at


large. We go life now to Oslo, joining us on videophone is the


British Ambassador to nor way. On the phone we're joined by the Mayor


of Oslo. Mayor, do you believe this is the


work of a single person? I'm not sure what I believe, it has been a


terrible day, today we have had a lot of people living in London, New


York and other places has been through this kind of situations


before us. And update us if you will on what has emerged, in terms


of how many people have died and where the police inquiries are


pointing at this time? The good thing is the situation seems to be


under control now. We have lost a lot of people and a lot of people


are injured, it is terrible. It is unacceptable that someone can treat


other people that way. Ambassador, you heard it, didn't you, you heard


the explosion? Yes, I did indeed, I was in the embassy building at the


time, it was at about 3.30, when everyone was still at work.


Although the embassy building is about three miles away from the


down town area where the bomb exploded, the whole house shook and


there was a huge noise, in fact I thought maybe it was an explosion


in the basement, a bass pipe or something. It really was a very


sizeable blast. What did it make you think of first of all, your


first instincts? I wondered if a huge ferry had crashed into the


harbour or something. There was maybe some problem with


construction works. It was very difficult to know. And I'm sure


that a lot of people in Oslo would have thought that their first


reaction would not be that it could be a terrorist, because we have


just not seen this kind of incident in Oslo ever before. I think it is


a real watershed for Norway and our hearts and thoughts really do go


out to all the people of Norway and the Government in the midst of this


dreadful tragedy. Why do you think Norway would have been targeted in


this way? Well, it is very hard to say, isn't it, we don't yet have


clarity as to what the motives were, or who was involved and I think we


need to get more information on the ground about that. But it's clear


that in Norway as well as the UK and other capitals around the world,


we do need to continue to be extra vigilent about terrorists from all


quarters. So you weren't aware of any specific threat to Norway?


I mean we have regular dialogue with Norway as with many other


countries, and a close co-operation with the police and other Security


Services about the risk of terrorism, and the Norwegian


Government are well aware about those risks and have been works


very hard on that preparedness. As many people have said it is always


different when you have the attack on the ground and you can't quite


prepare yourself for the horror and difficulty of what Norway has had


to go through today. Mayor, how much in your mind changes with this


information that's now emerged, that the suspect in the custody of


the police is a Norwegian citizen? Whether it is a terrorist or some


other crazy person who has done this, the most important thing is


we stay together, and we don't give up and we see that the people of


the world need each other, and it is important to try to stop this


kind of action. But there have been difficulties, haven't there, with


extremist groups at home in Norway, whether they be neo-Nazis or


anarchists? Not that much. I think this is, I don't know yet, but this


is probably a crazy man, and it is difficult to protect society from


crazy people. The good thing is the police and the rescue teams were


well prepared and they did fantastic job today.


Ambassador, the mayor thinks most likely a crazy man, but certainly a


man with a huge amount of resources, large amounts of explosives, do you


think that the possibility that it is most likely a crazy man is cred


snbl I don't know, I don't think that it is right to speculate at


this stage. I know the police and Security Services here are working


extremely hard to find out more information, they do have the


suspect, who they have apprehended, from the shootings on the island,


I'm sure they will find out more information from him. It does bring


home to all of us the ambient danger that exists in all of our


cities around people who want to do harm, and that is something that we


all need to work together very closely to combat.


Thanks to you both. We will return to the story later on in the


programme. There have been plenty of hints and


allegations of phone hacking beyond News International, but little more


than that. Tonight, though, Newsnight can reveal evidence that


it was also a routine practice at the Sunday Mirror, part of the


relentless quest for salacious celebrity gossip.


Celebrity scoop, life blood of the tabloids, drugs, surgery and sex.


Private lives dished and served for the millions, the engine driving


the phone hacking scandal. Day after day, News International's


reputation has been dragged through the mud, with fresh evidence about


phone hacking. The phone hacking and other dubious activities had


not been the sole preserve of the Murdoch group. Tonight we throw the


net far wider with evidence that another major newspaper group has


been involved. Our primary source is someone who


worked at the Sunday Mirror for several years. We're told our


informant witnessed routine phone hacking in the newsroom. And


remembers one high-profile target We have spoken to two other sources


who helped coroborate our story. They both say private detectives


were used and phones were hacked. Our primary source who used to work


at the Sunday Mirror, said these techniques were routine. A few


people on the news desk and designated reporters would do it


pretty much every day. One reporter, very good at it, was called The


Master Of Dark Arts. At one point in 2004t seemed the only way people


were getting scoops. If they didn't randomly hack people in the news,


they would use it to stand up stories people denied. We were told


the technique was used against numerous celeb tee, in a drive to


beat the News of the World at its We're told they also employed


someone to obtain confidential records by tricking the targets


over the phone. I was told he successfully managed to get


hospital records. He could pretend to be famous people, or failing


that he could pretend to be their lawyer or someone related to them.


I was told he had got Leslie Ash's medical records, through the dark


arts. In truth, journalists have sailed


close to the wind for many decades. The classic things we got up to in


the 1980s was paying policemen, following people. Bugging people's


houses. I personally bugged a prison officer's house, who was,


incidently breaking the law, and we were able to prove it through that


operation. There's no doubt in my mind, that if I was still a


journalist, I would have had no choice but to use the technology


available, that means phone hacking. It doesn't mean that I would have


happily sit back and hacked into a phone of a murder victim. But I


would have seen politicians and showbiz people as fair game.


journalists were hacking phones, did the management know. Celebrity


interviewer Piers Morgan, was editor at the time our source was


working at the Sunday Mirror. Under the cloak of parliamentary


privilege earlier in the week, one journalist alleged Mr Morgan had


hacked phones, something he angrily denied on CNN He refuse to, deshe


is not covered by privileged, she came out with an absolute blatant


lie during those proceedings. At no stage in my book or outside of my


book have I ever boasted of using phone hacking for any stories, for


the record n my time at the Mirror and the News of the World, I have


never hacked a phone, told anybody to hack a phone, or published any


story based on the hacking of a phone.


We asked the publisher of the Sunday Mirror to comment about our


source's evidence tonight. A There was no doubt that the use of


dubious technique was not confined to the Murdoch group alone. Our


evidence represents the first chink in the armour of other newspaper


groups and publisher, who will be viewing the forth coming hacking


inquiries with some trepidation. With me now two of the people you


saw in that report, Louise Mensch, a member of the committee, and a


former tabloid journalist for the Mirror, you are not the source, I


should mention. We will go on to the Piers Morgan spat earlier in


the week. You have talked about a wider culture of phone hacking on


Fleet Street, what do you make of what we have found? It doesn't


surprise me. I know the BBC is respected around the world, and


wouldn't run the story tonight unless they were absolutely sure of


the source and wouldn't run it frivolously. I hope news


organisations like CNN in America will take very careful note of this.


As a member of the culture select committee, what will it mean you do


next, are you yourselves going to call more people to account, as you


did the Murdochs? The Murdochs were called to the select committee


because there were questions over testimony that News International


executives have formally given to the committee. It wasn't a general


inquiry but to ask them about testimony to give to the previous


committee which proved not true. The committee conduct add report


into this in 2003 - conducted a report into this in 2003. I


wouldn't be surprised in the autumn if we take a deeper look at this.


Will you call and push for this? make collective decisions on the


select committee, I can't and don't want to pretend to speak for the


committee. It is clearly something I have taken a lively interest in.


Whilst there is no doubt at all that the Murdoch papers have


enormously serious questions to answer, many of which we posed to


them last Tuesday, it is, as your report says, there is no doubt this


goes on in other newsrooms. The big news of the week that hasn't been


much reported across the press, who I believe are scared of the widen


of the investigation. Is the files from operation MoT, and the


information report "What Price Privacy", which detail illegal and


legal transactions with private investigator, some with invoices


naming journalists, have been passed to the police, bringing


other newspaper groups into the frame for the first time. We have


had an idea of what your tabloid career has been like, does any of


what we have discovered tonight in terms of the Sunday Mirror surprise


you? It doesn't surprise me. I think we need to make a point here,


private detectives are used by the BBC, ITV, everybody uses them. In a


way I understand where Louis is coming from, but where will we -


Louis is coming from, where will we draw the line. You have somebody


from the Sunday Mirror saying this and that the other, but the phone


hacking is after my time f the technology had existed, I have no


doubt I would have used it, just like everybody else. Had any


compunction about it at the time? would have had great compunction


about doing anything when it came to murder victims or things like.


That but politicians and certain celebrities would have been fair


game. That's sort of irrelevant now because I was never part of that.


But what's more important is, number one, everyone's using


private detectives, number two, policemen have been paid all along,


and number three, what is the problem Louise has got with Piers


Morgan. I don't get it. We should focus on illegal activity, phone


hacking, we have found not just that journalists would do this when


there is a certain suspicion, but on a fishing expedition, listening


to Liz Hurley's voicemail and listening to lunch plans? This is


interesting and relevant, I work with a lot of the journalists


supposedly under suspicion at the moment. They were fantastic


journalists in the 1980s when it was competitive, and circulations


were high, and profits were high, and a lot of money around for the


stories. What appears to have happened is the technology came in


and it went to their heads. It appears that way. They ended up


literally not having to leave the office to get fantastic story. It


was too easy. I can't speak for individuals but that is my


perspective. Piers Morgan, was it blatant lie what you said in


parliament? As I said, the parliamentary privilege is there


for a reason T allows members of the parliament to raise issues


which might cause them to be sued outside of parliament. If there are


anacrocies said under parliamentary privilege, they can be removed


through parliamentary privilege, I don't want to go further. Let's


stick to the specific point, because it is important, you talked


about raising inaccurate things under parliamentary privilege. We


and many other people look at the quotes you referred to, and there


is no suggestion he boasted about using phone hacking? As I have said


corrections have to be made under parliamentary privilege, I can't


get into it on Newsnight. Perhaps you mean to make a connection


somewhere else? Can I ask now, you have a huge downer on Piers, who


happened to work for the Mail on Sunday, and who happened to give


you a hard time in a story a few weeks ago. I rest my case. Why are


you raising it if you don't? have an obsession with Mr Morgan,


he didn't say that stuff, you were wrong, you used parliamentary


privilege. You were turned over for writing a novel in the Mail on


Sunday, which they alleged was based on a true event. I had no


idea that Mr Morgan worked in the Mail. He did. He works Assawi a


columnist on the Mail. Is there something personal that led to you


pointing the fringeer in that way? It is the Mirror Group and


associated newspapers who I went on about in some depth in my question.


The question is not what happened in a book, the question is what


happened under the editorship, at the time of the person concerned in


the Mirror Group newspapers and the Associated Newspaper, and the


questions raised as to whether or not this is wider than the murd mur


press. Are you going to have - Murdoch press. Are you going to


look at the BBC and ITV to see if they have employed private


detectives, most have. We are not talking about Inspector Morse, the


files in Operation Motorman look at hacking into people's personal


phones and addresss and medical records. The BBC are not raised in


Operation Motorman. The reason I raised the other names, the Mirror


Group, is they are named in the Operation Motorman files. Is it


time for them to open up their books? Everybody should open up


their books, because they are as guilty as each other. The ones with


alleged illegal activity should be the ones to take the first steps?


think everybody has. If you dig harder. You would accuse the entire


press of it? Everybody at some stage. Hacking I can't speak for


personally. But I'm sure versions of that have been used by the very


private detectives hired by everybody. I watched a documentary


on television the other day and I heard the voice of a guy who was a


conman, he has been jailed and he was being used as a journalist by


somebody on that programme. I point somebody out the statement from


Trinity Mirror you quoted there used the present tense, our


journalists work within the code, in answer to the question did it


happen to in the past under certain editorships, haven't been responded


to, the response was "they work within the Escoda", so it is


whether they have always worked within the code.


We have to leave it there. He was painting until the day he


died, the tributes to Lucian Freud, make no doubts to the statement of


greatest British artist. He famously said he painted what he


saw, not what we wanted him to see. Many wouldn't have been flattered


by the result who sat for him, but they would have felt privileged to


I do start most self-portraits and destroy more than any other picture,


because they seem to, in my case, they seem to go wrong so very, very


often. I haven't found a way of doing them, not that I have found a


way of doing anything, but I feel that they should become easier and


they don't. He wasn't overfond of his self-portrait, and certainly


not of having his likeness captured on camera. This is from one of the


very few occasions when Lucian Freud agreed to be filmed. What he


really liked was looking at other people. Hard, for hours and hours.


Painting real people as they really were. To him. With models they


would have an idea about posing in itself, which is exactly what I'm


trying not to do, I want them to be themselves. I don't want to use


them for an idea I have got, where I must use a figure, let's have


that one. I actually want to do them. I never think about technique


in anything. I think it holds you up. You have to paint on trust.


One of Freud's non-models was Sue Tilley, who posed for his Benefits


Supervisor Sleeping. Which fetched more than �17 million. I went to


meet Sue this afternoon, at a cafe where Freud entertained many of his


sitters to lunch, or take away treats. What do you think he saw in


you, what traicted him to you as a painter? - attracted him to you as


a painter? I was very puct actual, very reliable. I know that sounds


ridiculous, but that is what he demanded most. People think it must


have been fantastic, I ran in there and went hi there and let's make


the most expensive painting in the world. We would have a chat and


that was t he always showed me when he was in the papers. He was always


excited when he met someone famous. Like Kylie Minogue. You wouldn't


think he would know about all modern things. He was desperate to


get Kate Moss to model for him. He said she was the biggest party girl


he had ever met. To hear Lucian Freud tell it, though, you would


think he led the life of a monk. I try to keep as calm as I can


always. I'm always on the occasions that things go well, I try to


recreate circumstances, similar ones, hoping the result will be


similar, but it doesn't, of course work. But I even think of what I


have eaten, or haven't. People speak about Freud, they always talk


about the eagle-like eyes. That was the secret of his brilliance. He


just looked harder than anyone had ever looked at things before, he


saw things no-one saw before. Freud's gaze was such a


democratising instrument in that sense. Whether it was Kate Moss,


the Queen, a benefit supervisor, he looked at you in exactly the same


way. When his own gift failed him, which wasn't often, Freud turned to


other masters for instruction. to the national gallery, rather


like going to a doctor for help. But if you are painting humans you


have the best subject matter in the world. That's all from Newsnight


tonight. Jeremy is back with more on Monday, when Peter Mandelson


will be present a mea culpa of will be present a mea culpa of


sorts. From all of us goodnight. Good evening. Some pretty lively


showers through the night to the south-east and East Anglia. Easing


away on Saturday morning, bright and chilly start elsewhere. Colder


through the day along the eastern coasts. For North West England,


also the west Midland should be dry and sunny. Patchy cloud through


inland areas, one or two showers, always cloudier towards the coast.


One or two showers across central southern England. Very well


scattered, much lighter than seen this week. Through Wales. We are


closer to a ridge of high pressure, things will be not only dry but


sunnier, and also warmer, feeling the full benefit out of the breeze


of the strong July sunshine. Warm across Northern Ireland. Cooler


towards the north coast, thanks to the breeze coming off the sea. A


strong breeze across Scotland. Cool on the eastern coast. Central and


south western Scotland 21 in the spells.


Saturday even a few outbreaks of rain in the east coast. Linked into


the same system bringing showers into Paris, clearing away. If you


are heading to the Mediterranean, dry, sunny and warm weather, heavy


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