22/07/2011 Newsnight


22/07/2011

Join Mishal Husain for more developments in the phone-hacking story.


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Tonight, Norway reals from an unprecedented terrorist attack.

:00:08.:00:14.

First a car bomb, then a gunman at a youth camp kills at least ten

:00:14.:00:18.

people. Parts of Oslo now look like a war zone. Suspicion immediately

:00:18.:00:23.

fell on Al-Qaeda, now there are other theories emerging, including

:00:23.:00:27.

home-grown anarchist and far right groups. With the number of dead

:00:27.:00:30.

rising, we will speak to the Mayor of Oslo and the British Ambassador

:00:30.:00:35.

there. Also tonight, we obtain evidence of

:00:35.:00:39.

phone hacking beyond News International. We have been told by

:00:40.:00:43.

a former Sunday Mirror reporter that hacking fopbs phones was rife

:00:43.:00:48.

at that paper too. We will put that to an ex-Sunday Mirror journalist

:00:48.:00:53.

and one of the MPs leading the charge against phone hacking.

:00:53.:00:57.

Rembering Lucian Freud, through the subject of one of his most

:00:57.:01:06.

celebrated paintings. Good evenings, this has been

:01:06.:01:09.

Norway's blackest day since the Second World War. With two deadly

:01:09.:01:13.

attacks in and around Oslo in the space of a few hours. One struck at

:01:13.:01:16.

the heart of the Government area, the other, a youth camp of the

:01:16.:01:20.

governing Labour Party. By the latest count, 17 people have died,

:01:20.:01:25.

Al-Qaeda was suspected but there's also the possibility that this was

:01:25.:01:30.

the work of a neej - Norwegian extremist group. The Prime Minister

:01:30.:01:37.

there has said the gunman in custody for the second attack is a

:01:37.:01:43.

Norwegian citizen. A cry for help from outside Norway's shattered

:01:43.:01:46.

Government headquarters this afternoon. Minutes after a bomb

:01:46.:01:52.

blew the building open. Shattering the mid-summer peace of a normally

:01:52.:01:58.

quiet capital. At first all was chaos. With debris scattered all

:01:58.:02:05.

around, and reports of victims trapped amid the rubble. It was

:02:05.:02:09.

soon announced that the Prime Minister, Thorvald Stoltenberg was

:02:09.:02:16.

safe, the police say seven people lost their lives. For Norwegians

:02:16.:02:18.

completely unaccustomed to terrorism, it is inhe can

:02:18.:02:25.

publicable and deeply shocking. it is inexplicable and deeply

:02:25.:02:29.

shocking. We thought that something like this would happen one day, but

:02:29.:02:34.

not at this scale. All of Oslo could hear the tremendous blast. We

:02:34.:02:38.

thought it was lightning striking everywhere close to us. I certainly

:02:38.:02:43.

did, I thought it was lightning outside my house, but it was a

:02:43.:02:47.

massive bomb in the centre of town. The people walking around in town

:02:47.:02:51.

now looking at the bomb damages, these are houses we have seen all

:02:51.:02:58.

our life, now the windows are gone and they are damaged. It is

:02:58.:03:02.

shocking, something like this, happening here, in Oslo, no, no, it

:03:02.:03:07.

is not supposed to be possible. News of more horror followed

:03:07.:03:11.

shortly afterwards, from the even more unlikely setting of an island

:03:11.:03:17.

in a lake near Oslo. Here were Norway's governing Labour

:03:17.:03:21.

Party was holding its annual youth conference, a gunman, who has now

:03:21.:03:26.

been arrested, opened fire with an automatic weapon. At the same time

:03:26.:03:31.

there is coming really strange reports from this youth camp that

:03:31.:03:33.

the shooter there, he was talking Norwegian, and he had blonde hair,

:03:33.:03:41.

and he looks like a Scandinavian, and what is this, we really don't

:03:41.:03:43.

understand what is happening? We always thought if somebody would

:03:43.:03:47.

take us, it would be a foreign terrorist group. And if there is

:03:47.:03:50.

Norwegians involved in this, it is very, very difficult to understand

:03:50.:03:54.

what is actually happening. And also the violence of it, what is

:03:54.:03:59.

happening in this youth camp. This execution-style killings. There

:03:59.:04:03.

were Twitter reports of terrified teenagers hiding in bushes, and

:04:03.:04:09.

attempting to swim to safety. But police now say nine or ten were

:04:09.:04:15.

killed. So far, though, there is no clear theory about who might be to

:04:15.:04:19.

blame. The three possibilities are some kind of far right group in

:04:19.:04:22.

Norway, which is possible, but there is a very large device in the

:04:22.:04:26.

centre of Oslo, some kind of Islamist group, again it is

:04:26.:04:30.

feasible, but really coming very much out of the blue. Or just

:04:30.:04:33.

possibly a Libyan connection. The point about the Libyan connection

:04:33.:04:37.

is Gaddafi claimed three weeks ago he would strike at NATO targets,

:04:37.:04:41.

but this double attack on the youth group as well as on the centre of

:04:41.:04:48.

Oslo rather rules that out. This is why we're really in the realms of

:04:48.:04:51.

speculation at a very difficult time for the Norwegians.

:04:51.:04:55.

shooting on the island, where the Prime Minister was due to speak

:04:55.:04:59.

tomorrow, lends some credence to the idea that the attacks may have

:04:59.:05:04.

had their origin in Norwegian domestic politics. Others think

:05:04.:05:08.

Islamist militancy is more likely. Last year three Muslim immigrants

:05:08.:05:12.

to nor way, supposedly with links to Al-Qaeda, were arrested for

:05:12.:05:16.

allegedly planning a terrorist operation. But there's no evidence

:05:16.:05:21.

yet, that today's attacks did have an Islamist origin. Only

:05:21.:05:25.

suggestions of possible motives. Norway may have been targeted

:05:25.:05:29.

because, besides its participation in the air operation in Libya, it

:05:29.:05:33.

also has a small contingent of troops in Afghanistan. Or there may

:05:33.:05:37.

still be anger that a Norwegian newspaper reprinted several years

:05:37.:05:41.

ago, cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, originally published in

:05:41.:05:47.

Denmark. Or the attacks may be linked to plans to prosecute this

:05:47.:05:52.

man, an Islamist activist of Iraqi Kurdish origin, accused of

:05:52.:05:56.

threatening to kill Norwegian politicians. So far there are no

:05:56.:06:00.

answers. Beyond a confirmation that the gunman on the island was

:06:00.:06:05.

Norwegian. That points back perhaps to a domestic motive. But the

:06:05.:06:12.

priority in Oslo tonight is to calm people's fears. TRANSLATION: This

:06:13.:06:18.

evening, and this night, we will take care of each other. Comfort

:06:18.:06:28.

each other, talk to each other. And stand together. Tomorrow we will

:06:28.:06:32.

show the world that the Norwegian democracy will be stronger when it

:06:32.:06:39.

counts. We will find the guilty, and hold them responsible. The most

:06:39.:06:45.

important thing is to save human lives. But with such devastation in

:06:45.:06:48.

their midst, it will take many norges a long time to come to terms

:06:48.:06:53.

with - Norwegians a long time to come to terms with what's happened

:06:53.:06:57.

in their usually calm country. Our security correspondent is with

:06:57.:07:00.

me now. Where is the finger of suspicion pointing right now, with

:07:00.:07:04.

all the new information that has been emerging? It has shifted

:07:04.:07:08.

through the day. Initially when it was the car bomb, outside

:07:08.:07:11.

Government office, that looked like Al-Qaeda, that was the suspicion,

:07:11.:07:14.

that this might be because of troops in Afghanistan, or one of

:07:14.:07:19.

the other reasons we heard about. But then the shooting at Utoeya

:07:19.:07:23.

began to ING chat picture a little bit. Shooting people is something

:07:23.:07:27.

we saw in the Mumbai attack, this looked like an unusual place to go

:07:27.:07:32.

to shoot people, at a political youth rally. It wasn't a typical

:07:32.:07:39.

search for a simple mass casualty target, you would normally see from

:07:39.:07:44.

Al-Qaeda much that was the first suggestion that it was something

:07:44.:07:48.

different. The person looked Nordic, we had confirmation that the person

:07:48.:07:52.

arrested was Norwegian, and there is a link between the events. He

:07:52.:07:57.

was seen in Oslo earlier, he's probably behind both events. That

:07:57.:08:01.

has shifted the focus towards some kind of person with a political

:08:01.:08:04.

grievance. Some kind of domestic extremist, who targeted first the

:08:04.:08:08.

Prime Minister's office, and then a political youth camp from the Prime

:08:08.:08:11.

Minister's party. That is very much more where the focus is going.

:08:11.:08:15.

Officials are still saying they don't want to speculate and say

:08:15.:08:18.

definitively what they think was behind the take. Which means at the

:08:18.:08:24.

moment there is still plenty of different theories in answer to the

:08:24.:08:28.

question of why Norway? Those theories are still in play, a

:08:28.:08:32.

Norwegian who might have been radicalised, that's why you can't

:08:32.:08:36.

rule out an Al-Qaeda link theory. But the balance has rifted towards

:08:36.:08:41.

some kind of agrieved individual. But the question is an individual

:08:41.:08:44.

by themselves capable of this, this is a big car bomb. It is not always

:08:44.:08:50.

easy to build the car bombs. Even with gos sick extremism, like the

:08:50.:08:58.

Oklahoma City bomb, Timothy McVeigh had helpers. There will be

:08:58.:09:01.

questions about who else was involved and are they still at

:09:01.:09:06.

large. We go life now to Oslo, joining us on videophone is the

:09:06.:09:12.

British Ambassador to nor way. On the phone we're joined by the Mayor

:09:12.:09:20.

of Oslo. Mayor, do you believe this is the

:09:20.:09:24.

work of a single person? I'm not sure what I believe, it has been a

:09:24.:09:29.

terrible day, today we have had a lot of people living in London, New

:09:29.:09:34.

York and other places has been through this kind of situations

:09:34.:09:39.

before us. And update us if you will on what has emerged, in terms

:09:39.:09:44.

of how many people have died and where the police inquiries are

:09:44.:09:50.

pointing at this time? The good thing is the situation seems to be

:09:51.:10:00.

under control now. We have lost a lot of people and a lot of people

:10:00.:10:06.

are injured, it is terrible. It is unacceptable that someone can treat

:10:06.:10:10.

other people that way. Ambassador, you heard it, didn't you, you heard

:10:10.:10:14.

the explosion? Yes, I did indeed, I was in the embassy building at the

:10:15.:10:19.

time, it was at about 3.30, when everyone was still at work.

:10:19.:10:23.

Although the embassy building is about three miles away from the

:10:23.:10:28.

down town area where the bomb exploded, the whole house shook and

:10:28.:10:31.

there was a huge noise, in fact I thought maybe it was an explosion

:10:31.:10:38.

in the basement, a bass pipe or something. It really was a very

:10:38.:10:43.

sizeable blast. What did it make you think of first of all, your

:10:43.:10:47.

first instincts? I wondered if a huge ferry had crashed into the

:10:47.:10:50.

harbour or something. There was maybe some problem with

:10:50.:10:53.

construction works. It was very difficult to know. And I'm sure

:10:53.:10:58.

that a lot of people in Oslo would have thought that their first

:10:58.:11:01.

reaction would not be that it could be a terrorist, because we have

:11:01.:11:06.

just not seen this kind of incident in Oslo ever before. I think it is

:11:06.:11:10.

a real watershed for Norway and our hearts and thoughts really do go

:11:10.:11:16.

out to all the people of Norway and the Government in the midst of this

:11:16.:11:20.

dreadful tragedy. Why do you think Norway would have been targeted in

:11:20.:11:25.

this way? Well, it is very hard to say, isn't it, we don't yet have

:11:25.:11:30.

clarity as to what the motives were, or who was involved and I think we

:11:30.:11:37.

need to get more information on the ground about that. But it's clear

:11:37.:11:41.

that in Norway as well as the UK and other capitals around the world,

:11:41.:11:45.

we do need to continue to be extra vigilent about terrorists from all

:11:45.:11:50.

quarters. So you weren't aware of any specific threat to Norway?

:11:50.:11:54.

I mean we have regular dialogue with Norway as with many other

:11:54.:11:57.

countries, and a close co-operation with the police and other Security

:11:57.:12:00.

Services about the risk of terrorism, and the Norwegian

:12:00.:12:05.

Government are well aware about those risks and have been works

:12:05.:12:10.

very hard on that preparedness. As many people have said it is always

:12:10.:12:13.

different when you have the attack on the ground and you can't quite

:12:13.:12:16.

prepare yourself for the horror and difficulty of what Norway has had

:12:16.:12:21.

to go through today. Mayor, how much in your mind changes with this

:12:21.:12:25.

information that's now emerged, that the suspect in the custody of

:12:25.:12:33.

the police is a Norwegian citizen? Whether it is a terrorist or some

:12:33.:12:37.

other crazy person who has done this, the most important thing is

:12:37.:12:42.

we stay together, and we don't give up and we see that the people of

:12:42.:12:51.

the world need each other, and it is important to try to stop this

:12:51.:12:56.

kind of action. But there have been difficulties, haven't there, with

:12:56.:13:04.

extremist groups at home in Norway, whether they be neo-Nazis or

:13:04.:13:09.

anarchists? Not that much. I think this is, I don't know yet, but this

:13:09.:13:19.
:13:19.:13:19.

is probably a crazy man, and it is difficult to protect society from

:13:19.:13:23.

crazy people. The good thing is the police and the rescue teams were

:13:23.:13:26.

well prepared and they did fantastic job today.

:13:26.:13:30.

Ambassador, the mayor thinks most likely a crazy man, but certainly a

:13:30.:13:34.

man with a huge amount of resources, large amounts of explosives, do you

:13:34.:13:38.

think that the possibility that it is most likely a crazy man is cred

:13:38.:13:43.

snbl I don't know, I don't think that it is right to speculate at

:13:43.:13:46.

this stage. I know the police and Security Services here are working

:13:46.:13:51.

extremely hard to find out more information, they do have the

:13:51.:13:58.

suspect, who they have apprehended, from the shootings on the island,

:13:58.:14:02.

I'm sure they will find out more information from him. It does bring

:14:02.:14:07.

home to all of us the ambient danger that exists in all of our

:14:07.:14:11.

cities around people who want to do harm, and that is something that we

:14:11.:14:18.

all need to work together very closely to combat.

:14:18.:14:22.

Thanks to you both. We will return to the story later on in the

:14:22.:14:25.

programme. There have been plenty of hints and

:14:26.:14:28.

allegations of phone hacking beyond News International, but little more

:14:28.:14:32.

than that. Tonight, though, Newsnight can reveal evidence that

:14:32.:14:37.

it was also a routine practice at the Sunday Mirror, part of the

:14:37.:14:47.

relentless quest for salacious celebrity gossip.

:14:47.:14:52.

Celebrity scoop, life blood of the tabloids, drugs, surgery and sex.

:14:52.:14:55.

Private lives dished and served for the millions, the engine driving

:14:55.:15:00.

the phone hacking scandal. Day after day, News International's

:15:00.:15:05.

reputation has been dragged through the mud, with fresh evidence about

:15:05.:15:09.

phone hacking. The phone hacking and other dubious activities had

:15:09.:15:13.

not been the sole preserve of the Murdoch group. Tonight we throw the

:15:13.:15:15.

net far wider with evidence that another major newspaper group has

:15:16.:15:19.

been involved. Our primary source is someone who

:15:19.:15:25.

worked at the Sunday Mirror for several years. We're told our

:15:25.:15:30.

informant witnessed routine phone hacking in the newsroom. And

:15:30.:15:40.
:15:40.:15:48.

remembers one high-profile target We have spoken to two other sources

:15:48.:15:52.

who helped coroborate our story. They both say private detectives

:15:52.:15:57.

were used and phones were hacked. Our primary source who used to work

:15:57.:16:00.

at the Sunday Mirror, said these techniques were routine. A few

:16:00.:16:04.

people on the news desk and designated reporters would do it

:16:04.:16:08.

pretty much every day. One reporter, very good at it, was called The

:16:08.:16:13.

Master Of Dark Arts. At one point in 2004t seemed the only way people

:16:13.:16:18.

were getting scoops. If they didn't randomly hack people in the news,

:16:18.:16:23.

they would use it to stand up stories people denied. We were told

:16:23.:16:27.

the technique was used against numerous celeb tee, in a drive to

:16:27.:16:37.
:16:37.:16:47.

beat the News of the World at its We're told they also employed

:16:47.:16:51.

someone to obtain confidential records by tricking the targets

:16:51.:16:56.

over the phone. I was told he successfully managed to get

:16:56.:16:59.

hospital records. He could pretend to be famous people, or failing

:16:59.:17:02.

that he could pretend to be their lawyer or someone related to them.

:17:02.:17:09.

I was told he had got Leslie Ash's medical records, through the dark

:17:09.:17:13.

arts. In truth, journalists have sailed

:17:13.:17:18.

close to the wind for many decades. The classic things we got up to in

:17:18.:17:22.

the 1980s was paying policemen, following people. Bugging people's

:17:22.:17:27.

houses. I personally bugged a prison officer's house, who was,

:17:27.:17:31.

incidently breaking the law, and we were able to prove it through that

:17:31.:17:35.

operation. There's no doubt in my mind, that if I was still a

:17:35.:17:38.

journalist, I would have had no choice but to use the technology

:17:38.:17:45.

available, that means phone hacking. It doesn't mean that I would have

:17:45.:17:49.

happily sit back and hacked into a phone of a murder victim. But I

:17:49.:17:54.

would have seen politicians and showbiz people as fair game.

:17:54.:18:00.

journalists were hacking phones, did the management know. Celebrity

:18:00.:18:03.

interviewer Piers Morgan, was editor at the time our source was

:18:03.:18:06.

working at the Sunday Mirror. Under the cloak of parliamentary

:18:06.:18:12.

privilege earlier in the week, one journalist alleged Mr Morgan had

:18:12.:18:20.

hacked phones, something he angrily denied on CNN He refuse to, deshe

:18:20.:18:25.

is not covered by privileged, she came out with an absolute blatant

:18:25.:18:28.

lie during those proceedings. At no stage in my book or outside of my

:18:28.:18:32.

book have I ever boasted of using phone hacking for any stories, for

:18:32.:18:36.

the record n my time at the Mirror and the News of the World, I have

:18:36.:18:40.

never hacked a phone, told anybody to hack a phone, or published any

:18:40.:18:43.

story based on the hacking of a phone.

:18:43.:18:46.

We asked the publisher of the Sunday Mirror to comment about our

:18:46.:18:56.
:18:56.:18:58.

source's evidence tonight. A There was no doubt that the use of

:18:58.:19:02.

dubious technique was not confined to the Murdoch group alone. Our

:19:02.:19:05.

evidence represents the first chink in the armour of other newspaper

:19:05.:19:10.

groups and publisher, who will be viewing the forth coming hacking

:19:10.:19:14.

inquiries with some trepidation. With me now two of the people you

:19:14.:19:24.
:19:24.:19:25.

saw in that report, Louise Mensch, a member of the committee, and a

:19:25.:19:30.

former tabloid journalist for the Mirror, you are not the source, I

:19:30.:19:36.

should mention. We will go on to the Piers Morgan spat earlier in

:19:36.:19:40.

the week. You have talked about a wider culture of phone hacking on

:19:40.:19:44.

Fleet Street, what do you make of what we have found? It doesn't

:19:44.:19:47.

surprise me. I know the BBC is respected around the world, and

:19:47.:19:50.

wouldn't run the story tonight unless they were absolutely sure of

:19:50.:19:54.

the source and wouldn't run it frivolously. I hope news

:19:54.:19:58.

organisations like CNN in America will take very careful note of this.

:19:58.:20:02.

As a member of the culture select committee, what will it mean you do

:20:02.:20:05.

next, are you yourselves going to call more people to account, as you

:20:05.:20:08.

did the Murdochs? The Murdochs were called to the select committee

:20:08.:20:13.

because there were questions over testimony that News International

:20:13.:20:17.

executives have formally given to the committee. It wasn't a general

:20:17.:20:22.

inquiry but to ask them about testimony to give to the previous

:20:22.:20:26.

committee which proved not true. The committee conduct add report

:20:26.:20:31.

into this in 2003 - conducted a report into this in 2003. I

:20:31.:20:34.

wouldn't be surprised in the autumn if we take a deeper look at this.

:20:34.:20:39.

Will you call and push for this? make collective decisions on the

:20:39.:20:42.

select committee, I can't and don't want to pretend to speak for the

:20:42.:20:46.

committee. It is clearly something I have taken a lively interest in.

:20:46.:20:49.

Whilst there is no doubt at all that the Murdoch papers have

:20:49.:20:52.

enormously serious questions to answer, many of which we posed to

:20:52.:20:57.

them last Tuesday, it is, as your report says, there is no doubt this

:20:57.:21:01.

goes on in other newsrooms. The big news of the week that hasn't been

:21:01.:21:05.

much reported across the press, who I believe are scared of the widen

:21:05.:21:10.

of the investigation. Is the files from operation MoT, and the

:21:10.:21:15.

information report "What Price Privacy", which detail illegal and

:21:15.:21:19.

legal transactions with private investigator, some with invoices

:21:19.:21:21.

naming journalists, have been passed to the police, bringing

:21:21.:21:24.

other newspaper groups into the frame for the first time. We have

:21:24.:21:29.

had an idea of what your tabloid career has been like, does any of

:21:29.:21:32.

what we have discovered tonight in terms of the Sunday Mirror surprise

:21:32.:21:36.

you? It doesn't surprise me. I think we need to make a point here,

:21:36.:21:43.

private detectives are used by the BBC, ITV, everybody uses them. In a

:21:43.:21:48.

way I understand where Louis is coming from, but where will we -

:21:48.:21:52.

Louis is coming from, where will we draw the line. You have somebody

:21:52.:21:56.

from the Sunday Mirror saying this and that the other, but the phone

:21:56.:22:01.

hacking is after my time f the technology had existed, I have no

:22:01.:22:04.

doubt I would have used it, just like everybody else. Had any

:22:04.:22:08.

compunction about it at the time? would have had great compunction

:22:08.:22:12.

about doing anything when it came to murder victims or things like.

:22:12.:22:17.

That but politicians and certain celebrities would have been fair

:22:17.:22:21.

game. That's sort of irrelevant now because I was never part of that.

:22:21.:22:24.

But what's more important is, number one, everyone's using

:22:24.:22:27.

private detectives, number two, policemen have been paid all along,

:22:27.:22:34.

and number three, what is the problem Louise has got with Piers

:22:34.:22:39.

Morgan. I don't get it. We should focus on illegal activity, phone

:22:39.:22:43.

hacking, we have found not just that journalists would do this when

:22:43.:22:49.

there is a certain suspicion, but on a fishing expedition, listening

:22:49.:22:53.

to Liz Hurley's voicemail and listening to lunch plans? This is

:22:53.:22:58.

interesting and relevant, I work with a lot of the journalists

:22:58.:23:00.

supposedly under suspicion at the moment. They were fantastic

:23:00.:23:04.

journalists in the 1980s when it was competitive, and circulations

:23:04.:23:07.

were high, and profits were high, and a lot of money around for the

:23:07.:23:10.

stories. What appears to have happened is the technology came in

:23:10.:23:15.

and it went to their heads. It appears that way. They ended up

:23:15.:23:20.

literally not having to leave the office to get fantastic story. It

:23:20.:23:26.

was too easy. I can't speak for individuals but that is my

:23:26.:23:31.

perspective. Piers Morgan, was it blatant lie what you said in

:23:31.:23:34.

parliament? As I said, the parliamentary privilege is there

:23:34.:23:37.

for a reason T allows members of the parliament to raise issues

:23:37.:23:46.

which might cause them to be sued outside of parliament. If there are

:23:46.:23:50.

anacrocies said under parliamentary privilege, they can be removed

:23:50.:23:53.

through parliamentary privilege, I don't want to go further. Let's

:23:53.:23:56.

stick to the specific point, because it is important, you talked

:23:56.:24:02.

about raising inaccurate things under parliamentary privilege. We

:24:02.:24:06.

and many other people look at the quotes you referred to, and there

:24:06.:24:11.

is no suggestion he boasted about using phone hacking? As I have said

:24:11.:24:14.

corrections have to be made under parliamentary privilege, I can't

:24:14.:24:22.

get into it on Newsnight. Perhaps you mean to make a connection

:24:22.:24:29.

somewhere else? Can I ask now, you have a huge downer on Piers, who

:24:29.:24:32.

happened to work for the Mail on Sunday, and who happened to give

:24:32.:24:39.

you a hard time in a story a few weeks ago. I rest my case. Why are

:24:39.:24:44.

you raising it if you don't? have an obsession with Mr Morgan,

:24:44.:24:49.

he didn't say that stuff, you were wrong, you used parliamentary

:24:49.:24:53.

privilege. You were turned over for writing a novel in the Mail on

:24:53.:24:58.

Sunday, which they alleged was based on a true event. I had no

:24:58.:25:04.

idea that Mr Morgan worked in the Mail. He did. He works Assawi a

:25:05.:25:09.

columnist on the Mail. Is there something personal that led to you

:25:09.:25:13.

pointing the fringeer in that way? It is the Mirror Group and

:25:13.:25:17.

associated newspapers who I went on about in some depth in my question.

:25:17.:25:20.

The question is not what happened in a book, the question is what

:25:20.:25:26.

happened under the editorship, at the time of the person concerned in

:25:26.:25:30.

the Mirror Group newspapers and the Associated Newspaper, and the

:25:30.:25:33.

questions raised as to whether or not this is wider than the murd mur

:25:33.:25:38.

press. Are you going to have - Murdoch press. Are you going to

:25:38.:25:42.

look at the BBC and ITV to see if they have employed private

:25:42.:25:48.

detectives, most have. We are not talking about Inspector Morse, the

:25:48.:25:53.

files in Operation Motorman look at hacking into people's personal

:25:53.:25:58.

phones and addresss and medical records. The BBC are not raised in

:25:58.:26:03.

Operation Motorman. The reason I raised the other names, the Mirror

:26:03.:26:08.

Group, is they are named in the Operation Motorman files. Is it

:26:09.:26:13.

time for them to open up their books? Everybody should open up

:26:13.:26:19.

their books, because they are as guilty as each other. The ones with

:26:19.:26:23.

alleged illegal activity should be the ones to take the first steps?

:26:23.:26:27.

think everybody has. If you dig harder. You would accuse the entire

:26:27.:26:34.

press of it? Everybody at some stage. Hacking I can't speak for

:26:34.:26:38.

personally. But I'm sure versions of that have been used by the very

:26:38.:26:41.

private detectives hired by everybody. I watched a documentary

:26:41.:26:45.

on television the other day and I heard the voice of a guy who was a

:26:45.:26:50.

conman, he has been jailed and he was being used as a journalist by

:26:50.:26:56.

somebody on that programme. I point somebody out the statement from

:26:56.:27:02.

Trinity Mirror you quoted there used the present tense, our

:27:02.:27:05.

journalists work within the code, in answer to the question did it

:27:05.:27:14.

happen to in the past under certain editorships, haven't been responded

:27:14.:27:19.

to, the response was "they work within the Escoda", so it is

:27:19.:27:21.

whether they have always worked within the code.

:27:21.:27:26.

We have to leave it there. He was painting until the day he

:27:26.:27:32.

died, the tributes to Lucian Freud, make no doubts to the statement of

:27:32.:27:36.

greatest British artist. He famously said he painted what he

:27:36.:27:41.

saw, not what we wanted him to see. Many wouldn't have been flattered

:27:41.:27:46.

by the result who sat for him, but they would have felt privileged to

:27:46.:27:56.
:27:56.:28:06.

I do start most self-portraits and destroy more than any other picture,

:28:06.:28:10.

because they seem to, in my case, they seem to go wrong so very, very

:28:10.:28:15.

often. I haven't found a way of doing them, not that I have found a

:28:15.:28:20.

way of doing anything, but I feel that they should become easier and

:28:20.:28:30.

they don't. He wasn't overfond of his self-portrait, and certainly

:28:30.:28:35.

not of having his likeness captured on camera. This is from one of the

:28:35.:28:37.

very few occasions when Lucian Freud agreed to be filmed. What he

:28:37.:28:42.

really liked was looking at other people. Hard, for hours and hours.

:28:42.:28:50.

Painting real people as they really were. To him. With models they

:28:50.:28:54.

would have an idea about posing in itself, which is exactly what I'm

:28:54.:28:58.

trying not to do, I want them to be themselves. I don't want to use

:28:58.:29:01.

them for an idea I have got, where I must use a figure, let's have

:29:01.:29:09.

that one. I actually want to do them. I never think about technique

:29:09.:29:19.
:29:19.:29:19.

in anything. I think it holds you up. You have to paint on trust.

:29:19.:29:25.

One of Freud's non-models was Sue Tilley, who posed for his Benefits

:29:25.:29:29.

Supervisor Sleeping. Which fetched more than �17 million. I went to

:29:29.:29:34.

meet Sue this afternoon, at a cafe where Freud entertained many of his

:29:34.:29:39.

sitters to lunch, or take away treats. What do you think he saw in

:29:39.:29:45.

you, what traicted him to you as a painter? - attracted him to you as

:29:45.:29:50.

a painter? I was very puct actual, very reliable. I know that sounds

:29:50.:29:54.

ridiculous, but that is what he demanded most. People think it must

:29:54.:30:00.

have been fantastic, I ran in there and went hi there and let's make

:30:00.:30:10.
:30:10.:30:12.

the most expensive painting in the world. We would have a chat and

:30:12.:30:17.

that was t he always showed me when he was in the papers. He was always

:30:17.:30:21.

excited when he met someone famous. Like Kylie Minogue. You wouldn't

:30:21.:30:25.

think he would know about all modern things. He was desperate to

:30:25.:30:29.

get Kate Moss to model for him. He said she was the biggest party girl

:30:29.:30:34.

he had ever met. To hear Lucian Freud tell it, though, you would

:30:34.:30:41.

think he led the life of a monk. I try to keep as calm as I can

:30:41.:30:50.

always. I'm always on the occasions that things go well, I try to

:30:50.:30:53.

recreate circumstances, similar ones, hoping the result will be

:30:53.:31:00.

similar, but it doesn't, of course work. But I even think of what I

:31:00.:31:05.

have eaten, or haven't. People speak about Freud, they always talk

:31:05.:31:09.

about the eagle-like eyes. That was the secret of his brilliance. He

:31:09.:31:14.

just looked harder than anyone had ever looked at things before, he

:31:14.:31:18.

saw things no-one saw before. Freud's gaze was such a

:31:18.:31:22.

democratising instrument in that sense. Whether it was Kate Moss,

:31:22.:31:27.

the Queen, a benefit supervisor, he looked at you in exactly the same

:31:27.:31:33.

way. When his own gift failed him, which wasn't often, Freud turned to

:31:33.:31:37.

other masters for instruction. to the national gallery, rather

:31:37.:31:41.

like going to a doctor for help. But if you are painting humans you

:31:41.:31:46.

have the best subject matter in the world. That's all from Newsnight

:31:46.:31:51.

tonight. Jeremy is back with more on Monday, when Peter Mandelson

:31:51.:31:59.

will be present a mea culpa of will be present a mea culpa of

:31:59.:32:07.

sorts. From all of us goodnight. Good evening. Some pretty lively

:32:07.:32:10.

showers through the night to the south-east and East Anglia. Easing

:32:10.:32:13.

away on Saturday morning, bright and chilly start elsewhere. Colder

:32:13.:32:19.

through the day along the eastern coasts. For North West England,

:32:19.:32:22.

also the west Midland should be dry and sunny. Patchy cloud through

:32:22.:32:29.

inland areas, one or two showers, always cloudier towards the coast.

:32:29.:32:34.

One or two showers across central southern England. Very well

:32:34.:32:37.

scattered, much lighter than seen this week. Through Wales. We are

:32:37.:32:40.

closer to a ridge of high pressure, things will be not only dry but

:32:40.:32:45.

sunnier, and also warmer, feeling the full benefit out of the breeze

:32:45.:32:49.

of the strong July sunshine. Warm across Northern Ireland. Cooler

:32:49.:32:55.

towards the north coast, thanks to the breeze coming off the sea. A

:32:55.:33:00.

strong breeze across Scotland. Cool on the eastern coast. Central and

:33:00.:33:04.

south western Scotland 21 in the spells.

:33:04.:33:10.

Saturday even a few outbreaks of rain in the east coast. Linked into

:33:10.:33:14.

the same system bringing showers into Paris, clearing away. If you

:33:14.:33:19.

are heading to the Mediterranean, dry, sunny and warm weather, heavy

:33:19.:33:24.