25/07/2011 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

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The man who thought he could defend his country's values by murdering


its children is in solitary confinement tonight. The terrorist


wasn't a bearded Islamic fundamentalist, but a clean-cut


young man with fair hair. Steve Rosenberg has been watching as the


people of Norway remember his victims and comfort each other.


His methods have been condemned by the Norwegian authorities and the


public, but how deep is nationalist sentiment here and across Europe.


Newsnight has discovered claim from a member of the English Defence


League, who says Anders Behring Breivik went on an EDL demo only


last year. Their leader, Stephen Lennon is here to explain.


It is said they couldn't agree how to solve a Rubik's Cube, where all


the squares are the same colour, is there any chance of Barack Obama


and Congress solving the American budget crisis. Peter Mandelson


admits the Labour Government got some things wrong. That is not true,


you are exaggerating, as they say, to make a point. REPORTER: I'm


slightly right aren't I? You are only very slightly right. Live


without deviation and repetition, he will tell us what they should do


There were 100,000 or more people on the streets of Oslo this evening,


demonstrating their support for the 76 people who were murdered by a


gunman, who claimed to be defending Europe from cultural Marxism, and


an Islamic takeover. The alleged killer, Anders Behring Breivik, has


been remanded in solitary confinement, while police


investigate his links to far right groups. The central question


remains, was this the action of a solitary deranged individual, or do


his actions reflect a wider unease both in Norway and perhaps beyond,


about immigration and asylum-seeker, which people like Breivik can


exploit. Steve Rosenberg is in Oslo, for Newsnight.


This was the moment that nation stopped to remember its dead. In


Oslo and across Norway, there was one minute of silence, after one


day of terror. Even before he was brought to the courthouse, Anders


Behring Breivik had admitted he carried out the attacks in Oslo and


the youth camp. But he didn't accept he had committed crime. At


the court hearing, which was closed, Anders Behring Breivik said he had


accomplice, two more terror cells, to help him carry out his plan.


TRANSLATION: Anders Behring Breivik, born on February 14th 1979, may be


held in custody until it is decided otherwise by the prosecution and


the court, but not on September 26th 2011. He will have ban on


letters, visits and media throughout the whole custody period,


as well as complete isolation until August 22nd 2011. If there were


acomplises, were they in the UK? In his 1500-page manifesto, which


Breivik had posted on-line, he kwhraimed claimed to have contact


with the far right in Britain. There is a concern, but there are


no specific information that is it is orderated. It looks like he's


more hoping for some kind of copy cat attack. That he's the avant


garde of the moment, he's showing the way, and hoping others will


follow. This is the moment Norwegian police headed to the


island, an hour after the shooting began.


Many in Norway assumed their country was being attacked by


Islamic terrorists. But this wasn't the work of Al-Qaeda, it was a


Norwegian extremist, who committed mass murder. Cold blooded killing


by man who called himself a patriot. So had Norway underestimated the


threat from home-grown terrorism? I don't think it has been


overlooked, actually, back in the 1980s. We had some isolated


environments of far right extremism, and they were taken quite seriously


in the sense that the police focused on them, and the school


system focused on them. And society took some broad concerted efforts


to reduce their impact, which I think has been successful. We have


much less of it in our political culture than relatively similar


countries. But today, the police Security Service revealed it had


flagged Breivik in March, when he had purchased chemicals from a


Polish business. They said it wasn't significant enough to pursue.


Part of the problem of identifying potential threats is the way the


far right operates has changed. During the last few years we have


seen the emergence of an anti-Islam movement, which has a very


different character. They are not street orientated, they are not


organisations who gather in meetings and demonstrations or


anything like that, they mainly sit behind computers and write


statement ones blogs and read letters, and are quite advise


invisible. Through mass murder the gunman said


he wanted to spark a revolution across Europe, to create a new


society. So far he hasn't succeeded. Following the massacre, Norway is


united in grief and disbelief at what happened. Anders Behring


Breivik sees himself as a crusader against Islam, against immigration,


against multiculturalism, the very foundation of modern European


society. And while the Norwegian authorities and the public condemn


his methods and his extreme message, nationalist sentiment has taken


route here. This is a part of Oslo that has seen a huge influx of


immigrants over the last 20 years. Most of the people here have come


from Somalia, Pakistan and Iraq. The Norwegian Progress Party wants


curbs on immigration, their growing popularity match that is of other


political forces across Scandinavia. Like the Swedish Democrats, the


Danish People's Party, and the True Finns. In Norway the scale of


immigration has transformed the country. Barring a minority in the


far north, this country was Lily white as late as in the late 1960s.


I myself was born in 1959, I grew up in Oslo, I was 17 years old


before I met a person of colour that I could have a conversation


with in Norwegian. It is a very different situation to what you


have in post-colonial Britain. In the course of my adult lifetime


this has changed enormously. These are people who are often being


urbanised as they also become Norwegianised. So this has caused a


number of social problems. This woman was born in Norway, her


family is originally from Pakistan. Last Friday, when many Norwegians


thought Islamic terrorists were behind the attacks, her relatives


received abuse. They said "get out of here", they said it to small


children. I don't know, it was a horrible reaction. We live in


Norway, and we are as much Norwegian and we feel the same


feelings. But tonight, tens of thousands


gathered in the centre of Oslo, from different communities and


different faiths. After last week's bloodshed, it showed a


determination not to let cultural differences divide their country.


Steve Rosenberg joins us from Oslo now.


What's the mood there tonight? Standing here, by this huge carpet


of flowers, and candle, by the Cathedral, I have been watching the


stream of people coming here to pay their respects, and the one thing


that has struck me, more than anything, is, that represented here


is this whole spectrum of Norwegian society, different races, different


religions, native Norwegian, the immigrant community. Everyone is


united in grief, united in this tragedy. Multicull curlism is now,


of course, a - multiculturalism, is now, of course a controversial


thing across Europe, many leaders claiming that multiculturalism has


failed. And we seem to have lost the link there, unfortunately.


David Cameron said today that the Government here was taking


extremely seriously those claims that Anders Behring Breivik had


links to far right groups in this country. The organisation whose


name has been most mentioned is the English Defence League. They say


they have no official contact with them. A claim I will be examining


with their leader in a moment. First, though, we have been


investigating. So, what are the English


connections? As investigators delve into Anders Behring Breivik's past,


and the causes for concern, the concern is how close to home will


the trail go. 14 right-wing extremists are already in prison in


England for offences. The Home Office is so concerned, about 70


more, who have been accessing terror websites, and threatening


mass violence, it has had to intervene.


Particular concerns have been raised about a connection with the


English Defence League, an anti- Muslim street movement involved in


violent clashes with anti-fascists and Muslims. I have been following


the EDL for Newsnight for over a year, including travelling to


Amsterdam where they met up with their Norwegian counterparts, the


NDL. As you see today the English Defence League are here today, we


are not hooligans, we are normal people, we have come here today to


have our voices heard. The anti- fascist group Searchlight have been


looking at the co-operation. Here he is under the name Crusader, he


was in contact with EDL people in March before going underground.


This posting on the 9th of March, he's congratulating the EDL saying


they are a blessing to awful Europe, telling them to keep up the good


work, - all of Europe, telling them to keep up the good work, and


saying they share a common cause. Here he criticises the


establishment in Norway, the media, but he particularly targets out the


Norwegian Labour Party. But, then he says, in a slightly airy way, he


says he thinks there will be an awakening, at least he hopes so.


Are you worried members of the EDL could be a serious threat? Yes I am.


Partly they are driven by the same propaganda, and ideology, but also,


within it, there are people who are quite dangerous, advocating the use


of weapons and burning down of mosques. We have done a cursory


look on the Internet, and found EDL supporters posing with guns. It is


just an indication of some of the people who are involved in it.


Daryl Hobson is an EDL member and claims that Breivik Marched with


the EDL before. He has been arrested at several demonstration,


including alongside EDL leader, Stephen Lennon, on remembrance day


last year. Jonathan Birdwell from the think-tank, Demos, is


undertaking a huge studio of the EDL and other far right movements


in Europe. If there is evidence he has met with those close to the


leadership of the EDL, that is incredibly worrying. In terms of


the actions of those individuals and putting cross hires on people


like Mr Chouddree. Before you would like to say it is in bad taste or


driven by bravado. But in fight of the Anders Behring Breivik attack,


we have to give more serious - in the light of the Anders Behring


Breivik attack we have to give more serious attention to these groups


and on the Internet. David Cameron today said the links will not be


underestimated. We take those claims extremely seriously we will


look at all the aspects of those claims and we will work very


closely with the Norwegians, in terms of the police relationship,


in terms of the security relationship, and the very strong


political relationship I have with Jens Stoltenberg. We will help them


in every day we can. Anders Behring Breivik boasted in his manifesto


about having more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends. Now


the social networking site is no science, but in a world where this


rhetoric lives and grows on-line, how much these things are feeding


one another is cause for alarm. We are joined now by the leader of


the English Defence League, Stephen Lennon, who also goes by the name,


Robinson. Did you ever meet Anders Behring Breivik? I never. Can I


express our deep sympathy for the victims and their families and the


people of Norway. How was this man allowed on your demonstrations?


don't believe he has. We should stop speculating and look at the


facts. I'm looking at evidence from Daryl Hobson, I thought you were


arrested with him? There were other people arrested on that day, I was


arrested on that day. You were arrested at the time? No, on the


same day. Page 148 of his desor e he said we are an anti-Nazi


organisation, we can't coincide with this organisation because our


ideologies are so far apart. He has stated that. Mr Hobson has claimed?


Who is he, he's a random member out of 100,000 members. I thought,


first of all, we don't know exactly? 100,000 supporters on the


Internet, he's one of them. More to the point this man. Let's not


listen to what Daryl Hobson said, let's listen to the psychopath's


manifesto says, he says we have non-white members and he is


ideolgically apart from us, he calls us fools. The media are not


reporting it, we encourage integration. He has 600 EDL


friends? If you look at mismanifesto, not speculation, on


page 148, I can read them, if you want. Just tell me, out of his


manifesto, how much of it do you disagree with, 1500 pages? After


7/7 would you say this to a Muslim leader do they share the same parts


of ideology. We believe Islam is a threat. Do we want to stop this


happening on British soil or play the blame game. I'm trying to


establish facts about the connections between your


organisation and his? The EDL. can quote endlessly? This is his


manifesto, this is from the man himself. The EDL harshly condemns a


movement that uses terror as a tool, such as mine, that is why we view


the EDL as fools, they believe the democratic system can solve the


problems, they have non-European members. This is what the man said.


You have also read his listing on one of your forums, "hello to all


you good Englishmen and women, just wanted to say you are a blessing to


all in Europe". This was before his manifesto was released. It was


almost the last thing he published before he disappeared to make his


bombs? You have seen his manifesto that he released. Do we want to


learn from this, this man was a sick individual, you can never use


terror tactics like him. There is an undercurrent of anger, these are


the facts people should address, there is an undercurrent of anger


across the whole of Europe and Britain. If you don't address the


issue and sweep it under the carpet. No-one is sweeping it under the


carpet, I'm trying to establish the connection between you and him?


When you agree to peacefully protest, we do. That we get


condemned for trying to peacefully protest. We can condemn extremism


and violence, we are what you would want as a grassroot organisation to


the serious threat. You are with Alan Lake one of your founders?


is not my mate or a founder. He is a funder? He is not faunder, he has


never given a penny to the English Defence League. He has written


speeches for you hasn't he? facts, not speculation. Do you know


him? I do know him. Do you believe there are dormant racists. Do you


agree with him when he says this was logical and inevitable, that is


very close to what you are saying? I am disgusted and sickened by what


this man done, and every member of the EDL are disgusted, there are


dormants racists to be completely racist against Muslims, and sweep


the phenomenon of the English Defence League and there are


British people gravely concerned, the threat of Islam is having on


our nation. And if you want to solve these problems, you won't


solve them by dismissing people as racists and putting it out they are


there they are lunatic, all people who have concerns against Islam. In


every country, 24% of Norwegians voted for an anti-Islamic


organisation. There needs a platform given to people to have


their concerns heard. This is a peaceful process, you take the


democratic right away from those people, God knows what they will do.


Your website which has people in the cross hairs of telescopic


sights. Your website has pictures of Islamic fundamentalists, in the


cross hairs of rifle sights? If you refer back to Facebook where anyone


can put anything on, that is not evidence against our organisation.


You won't find it on our website, people can check the organisation


out, we stand against extremism and contem all acts of violence. But


you have to - condemn all acts of violence. But you have to give


people who are concerned about Islam an opportunity to have a


voice, rather than trying to destroy the voice. No-one denies


there is lots of anxiety? About Islam. Tremendous anxieties.


soon as you say it you are racist. I'm intrigued to know what it is in


his 1500-page manifesto you disagree with? To be honest I


disagree with murder, I share the same fact that I believe Islam is a


threat, but we completely condemn any acts of violence against


innocent people. What has happened over there is horrific and will be


remembered for the rest of eternity as a disgusting deranged attack.


That is what it is, we condemn it and are against it, you can't brush


off millions of people who have concerns against Islam as lunatics,


when there is serious concerns, we need to have our voices heard. If


you try to take the platform of democratic protest. I'm banned for


protesting, what about my human rights, human rights are only there


for the Muslim community in this country. We are seeing many of our


members given ten-year ASBOs for demonstrating. When they are


concerned about Islam, they are not allowed to have a demonstration now,


this is land of democracy, unless you want to talk about Islam, then


it is not. These are genuine concerns, these at this tanks are


not doing their jobs, because all the Government organisations don't


have a representative from the working-class in this country, that


member is me, we are against extreme violence, God for bid this


ever happens on British soil, it is a time coming. You are probably


five or ten years away. Thank you very much. That sounds almost like


a threat? It is not a threat. think something like this could


happen in a few years time? believe it could, it is not a


threat, it is a wake up call to say we don't want it to happen, let's


address the problem. It won't be solved by keep building more


mosques and Islamic immigration, and not listening to people. Thank


you very much. Can it really be true that the


world's biggest economy is about to default on its debt? Already the


possibility of such an unthinkable thing happening has caused the most


senior officials in the US Treasury and Federal Reserve to warn of both


catastrophy and calamity. However the American constitution requires


the agreement of the President and Congress, as things stand there is


no agreement. They have until next Tuesday to pass the deal. President


Obama and the Republican leadership in Congress are still locked in mu


actual recrimination, but the clock is blrb mutual ce cim nation, but


the clock is ticking - mutual recriminations, but the clock is


ticking. Why does this matter to us? The US spends thrillions of


dollars every year, it is the biggest purchasing nation.


Thousands of British companies sell directly other indirectly to the US


F it wakes up on Monday and decides it can't pay its Wills it goes


through all of that. - bills. It goes through all of that. There is


the bond market also. As we use the dollar as a reserve currency


globally, banks use IOUs, issued by the US Government as a currency


between banks. If they default, those IOUs go from being gold


plated, to you will always get your money back to default status, where


there is no guarantee to get any of your money back. The banks either


have to ignore the rules and the facts and carry on as normal, or


they stop lending to each other, and balm, the world is in a second


credit crunch. Which of the sides is right on that, the President and


the associated position of the Democrats or Republicans on Capitol


Hill, who is right? There is one fact you can't deny it is the size


of the debt. How it got to $14 trillion, under Bush it creeps up,


but under President Obama it rockets. He is fighting two wars,


he is spending his way out of recession with a fiscal stimlau, he


has kept the tax cuts that - stimulus, he kept the tax cuts that


Bush started. You can't do that. If the economy was growing we wouldn't


have the debate. Many economists say the stimulus hasn't worked, the


only way out of recession is to cut the deficit, just as it is a


completely respectable position to have here, not a called, as Stephen


McCabe, right-wing nuter position. Many economists believe the only


way out for the US is to cut its deficit. If that right-wing


Republican opposition believes that it is the last chance to cut the


deficit, they will fight to the very last minute. We are joined


from capitol hill by Earl Blumenauer, a Democrat member of


the budget committee, and a Republican member of the House


Financial Services Committee. When you look at the damage this is


already doing to your country, it is a very dangerous game that is


being played, isn't it? Well, but also think of the flip side of that.


If you were to look at the Moody's and SNP documents we got a few


months ago, they made it very clear if we do not demonstrate we are


bending our debt curve we will head towards a downgrade. There will


start being a premium on our debt. We are that that - in that


juxtaposition where it is demonstrating a credible plan to


deal with the sizing of the debt. Earl Blumenauer you can't carry on


spending like a drunkle sailor, can you? Nobody is suggesting that. You


referenced at the top that there are several things in play on top


of that, not two unfunded war, but the another collapse of the economy.


Bear in mind the economic stimulus was 40% additional tax cuts over


and above the Bush tax cuts. But the issue here is, I think, more


fundamental, even my Republican friend's budget will require $8


trillion of additional borrowing. How you do this is get serious


about raising revenue, about changing spending patterns to


reduce spending, but don't play chicken with the debt ceiling. We


are going to pay our debts, hopefully we don't have to be


punished by international markets to force us to do that. The most


direct thing we should do is about be the business, with dealing with


what all the experts agree, needs to be a balanced approach, which


most of the American public agrees needs to be balanced. Which is some


revenue, some programme cuts, and changing how we do business. Right,


you have used the expression playing chicken, in a sense


everyone is playing chicken here, is there going to be a deal?


there going to be a deal? There will be something that will happen,


probably before the August deadline, I suspect given the lateness of the


hour and the vast differences in opinions that it will be more of a


short-term activity. How do you see it, do you think there will be a


deal? I would prefer the use of the word "a plan", I have to agree with


the Congressman, we may end up with a short-term deal. There is one


point, I think the Congressman was touching on it. We have quite


adequate cashflows to cover our coupons, our bonded indebtedness,


anyone who uses the word "default", it is horribly unfair and


inaccurate. What is a more interesting discussion is the 40%


of federal spending in the United States, that is financed through


borrowing. That is really the debate you are seeing, is how long


is that capable of being covered, and if we don't demonstrate a


bending of that curve, will we be punished by the rating agencies, no


matter what the deal looks like. respectfully disagree. There will


be efforts to try to make fundamental changes in terms of how


we do business. But the notion that some how we have enough money to


satisfy all our obligations without adjusting the debt ceiling in the


course of the next week, is rejected by former Republican


secretaries of the Treasury, by independent analysts, you may


reward Chinese investors and maybe punish British contractors to the


American Government. But you don't have enough money to do it all. If


you don't do all of it, on schedule, then you are raising a real


question about what the Federal Government's reliability going


forward. I don't think anybody wants that. And you were talking


about this actually earlier, is the portion of US contracts that there


would not be cashflow to pay. Once again, you can't use the language


of default on bonds, which cause that is a function of coupons, and


we see if you even look at our bond futures as of 20 minutes ago, they


are still flat, we are still sitting right around the 3% on the


ten. So there is so much liquidity in the US debt, it is a so much


more interesting and difficult discussion to talk about the 40% we


finance through borrowing, that is the honest discussion there. What


Dave and his colleagues would do, ironically is give to the President


of the United States and the secretary of the Treasury the


discretion to decide which they are going to do. Are they going to


honour our...That Is technically wrong, I'm one of the spopbs sors


of the bills that would step up and priorityways that debt. No bill has


passed - prioritise that debt. No bill was passed. And you would give


the President the choice to make that decision. As the law is in


existence today. It won't be next week. What is that extraordinary


green bicycle on your lapel? Quickly. I'm bike partisan, this is


the congression bike caucus membership. Which is buy partisan


caucus. Labour MPs had a slight spring in


their steps as they set, or at least weren't as dejected as they


had been before the phone hacking scandal on which their party has


made much of the running. The big question to which they will be


returning later in the week is what will it make for the party to be


re-electable. We start with the man who put the "new "into new Labour.


Peter Mandelson, he's conducting a - an investigation into


globalisation for the IPPR think- tank. And along the way he's


prepared to admit there are some things his party got wrong.


Paul Mason reports. It's 8.00am, and Lord Mandelson is


on a journey, he's headed for the north-east of England. Mission, to


resell the idea of globalisation to Labour's voting base. At the heart


of the problem is what happened to manufacturing. During 13 years of a


Labour Government, manufacturing fell from 18% of GDP to just under


1%. And though Labour created three million jobs, 1.3 manufacturing


jobs were lost. In the 1980s the Government actually said, the Prime


Minister actually said, and the entire Government machine was


geared to the belief that we in Britain could no longer be an


engineering, manufacturing, advanced technology economy. Every


Government policy heaped prejudice and obstacle and further barrier


against those non-financial sector parts of our economy. And we, hold


on, and when we, me, us, we came in 1997, we continued that too far,


too much. So there is a bit of a mea culpa going on here on


industrial policy for Labour. At the port of Tyne, cars build at


the Nissan Sunderland plant are set for export, for Asia and the Middle


East, not just Europe. Labour sees Nissan as a success


story, the dying Brown Government persuaded the Japanese giant to


choose Britain as the site for its new electric car engines. Why do


they want to bring them all the way from here? Because we are


competitive. But he's all too well aware that other European


Governments do for more their own industrial base, than Labour did in


office. And there are calls for more protectionism within his own


party. Out there, in Europe, you are up against a bunch of


protectionists, what can you do about it? That is no not true, you


are exaggerating, as they say to make a point. I am slightly right,


aren't I? Only very slightly right. But we have to watch that.


Newcastle City Council, now back under Labour control, Lord


Mandelson meets local business people, unions and the council


leader. You seem to be full of vim and vigour. We will come back in a


year's time. They will look like you! I don't quite know what you


mean by that! None of these people see globalisation as a threat, it


is just after 13 years of a Labour Government and one of coalition,


they worry the skills are just not there to drive an industrial


Rennaissance. We have to decline people entering what you would call


core stem subjects into the FE sector, that was after national


2001-2006, there was a 50% decline. We have fallen off a cliff and kept


falling. It would be a priority for you all to go into the schools and


take this message. You will find the people who run the schools very,


very reluctant to start encouraging pupils in one vocational direction


as opposed to another. So what did you make of that?


tell you what I made of it, I made of it that there is a very, very


strong enterprise base to the north-east economy. That it is, it


has changed and is still changing. There is a nightmare, isn't there,


for Labour, that is the coalition's the first Government that has


really spelt out the country needs to rebalance, it is a forced


rebalancing, driven by fiscal policy. What if it works, what if


it works where your approach didn't? I would be absolutely


delighted. To see a more modern economy, manufacturing advanced


manufacturing, backed and becoming more successful. I would be very


happy to see a more thriving private sector, business enterprise


sector in this country. They did it by cutting back the state, they are


cutting back the state, you didn't? That is the point I'm making,


cutting back the state is not in itself a solution, when you are


cutting back the essential state support for business and new


enterprise, new sectors and new markets. At an FE college in


Hartlepool, his old constituency, Lord Mandelson south-east sees the


entire debate between Labour's support base between the' present


tiss. One thinks all the jobs - apprentice, one thinks all the jobs


are going to foreigner its, the other one has no problem.


factory where you I work people from Germany, Japan, Brazil, just


an engineer coming from Brazil to help us with the work, there is


people from all over the world. Hartlepool today is still a town of


high unemployment, still suffering from the deindustrialisation of the


past 30 years. How far does mea culpa translate into English? You


don't feel like saying to them, implicitly, sorry, we didn't have


an industrial policy for all those years, sorry we did tell you that


wealth would trickle doin and it hasn't. You don't - trickle down


and it hasn't. You don't feel like apologising for what Labour did in


office? What people felt more at the end of our time in Government,


than they did at the beginning s first they had a Government that


cared about them, secondly, a Government prepared to invest in


them and their town, and thirdly, people prepared to plug them into a


different, changing economy here in the north-east and in the country


as a whole, and prepared to put ourselves out to get them sof


welfare into work, reskilled, available to do the jobs, more


confident to take the opportunities for the jobs to be created. There


are a lot of people still on welfare in the north-east? And few


people than if they didn't have Labour Government in power for 13


years. That is where Labour is stuck for


now, somewhere between defending its record in office and moving on.


Lord Mandelson is here now. When exactly did you realise you


had been too enthralled to the market? My experience in Europe,


when I went off to be Trade Commissioner, and I saw European


continental prakti, but I also travelled around the world. -


practice, but I also travelled around the world. There was no


continent I didn't visit. I saw in all those countries, particularly


those nearest to home, a much more strategic, smarter, more activist


role for Government acting with markets and with the private sector.


Governments who looked after their own people as opposed to what went


on here? It was not what the Labour Government was wrong, what we did


was right, but ultimately we didn't do enough. Manufacturing output


fell faster when you were in office than it did under Margaret


Thatcher? We also had the longest sustained period of economic growth


in this country under a Labour Government than we have seen since


the war. The reason. You know where we are now as a consequence? That


has other causes. But what we got right was the huge investment in


the supply side of the economy, and skills and science, and


infrastructure, we were right to acouldn't a pro-enterprise approach


to - encourage a pro-enterprise approach to business. We were right


to maintain flexibility and competitiveness of labour, product


and capital markets. Where we didn't do enough, however, was in


acting with the private sector, with markets, to give a lift, to


give a particular help to particular sectors, technologies,


growing markets, where our future jobs were going to be created. We


didn't do enough. Do you think you were also too enthralled to the


banks? No, I don't think we were enthrafld to the banks. I think


what we - enthrafled to the banks. What we had inherited was a


throwing financial services sector, that was generating a colossal


amount of wealth, revenue and employment in our economy. What I


do, however, think, is we became overexposed to the financial sector.


That meant when it went wrong, our exposure, and therefore the


consequences for our economy, was much greater than those that had


less exposure to the financial sector. Do you also accept that you


failed in education, in terms of turning out people who were fit for


the jobs that might become available? That was the evidence we


saw in the film, surely? That was not the evidence you saw on the


film. What we did. I thought that was what the business leaders were


telling you? No, what they were saying is there was an insufficient


bias in favour of science, technology, engineering and


mathematics graduates coming from the further and higher education


sector. It doesn't mean to say we failed in education. You failed in


education to meet the needs of industry? I don't think that is


true. Not in the basics. But I do think that part of the bias that


had grown up in our country, against manufacturing, against


engineering, against science, was not sufficiently turned round


during our period in Government. We expanded higheredcation, the -


education, the quality of it, the volume of people going through


higher education all expanded. I'm afraid we did, insufficient, in my


view, to live down and reverse that historic prejudice against science


and engineering andatics, that had grown in our - and mathematics,


that had grown in our country during the 1980s. When you hear


that young man speaking how he has Chinese, Brazilians, people from


all over Europe, coming to take jobs. And you contrast it with


Gordon Brown's talk about British jobs for British workers, something


went certificate yuesly awry? seriously awry? We went round the


table and I asked all the young people about global yoisation,


about us having - globalisation, about us having to face competition


from the major economies, only one exception said they wanted to


travel and could see opportunities for employment, and us working


together with these economies, to earn our living in the global


economy in the future. I was very encouraged by that, it is a truth.


We are not going to earn our living during the course of this century,


by running away from the global economy, and pretending that


globalisation doesn't exist. Has Ed Miliband learned the lessons you


have learned? I think he has, during the two years we were


working together, when I came back to Government, he was energy and


climate change secretary, I was the Business Innovation and Skills


Secretary. We worked very closely together, in delivering an


industrial strategy to bring about a low carbon transition in this


country. Not just the importing of energy and manufactureed goods from


abroad, but making them in this country. That required certain


heavy lifting, certain pump priming, certain strategic interventions


from the Government, which he and I were prepared to deliver, the sort


of industrial activism, I think and I accept now we should have


operated more on in our time in Government. Has he yet found what


you failed to detect in the early days of his campaign, which was a


substitute for new Labour? I don't think he has, no. It would not


appear that he has a found of - a substitute of new Labour. We know


new Labour is buried. We don't know what will take its place. That I'm


sure will emerge during the course of the coming year. He has had a


good run on the hacking story, hasn't he? There are two


observations I would make about the state of the party under Ed, one


internal and unextrpbl, the internal one is we haven't -


external, the internal one is we haven't fallen apart in disunity


and acrimony as we have before in opposition. The courage and


leadership he showed over News International, and Murdoch, has


earned him a hearing in the country. He has made his mark, now he has to


say things which are even more of interest to people, on the standard


policy areas which concern people, the economy, the future of the


welfare state, public services, and taxation.


And on the hacking story, I mean in the unlikely event your diary was


empty this weekend and the Murdochs invited you to a party, would you


go? I won't actually be in the country next weekend. If your diary


were empty, is my question? If my diary was empty would I go to a


party with Rupert Murdoch, I think on balance, the answer to that is,


no. But you, of course, were at Elizabeth Murdochs, just a couple


of days before the Milly Dowler revelations? I was at a party of


Elizabeth and her husband, and I certainly wouldn't turn my back on


any friend I have. Whichever family they belong to. What I did not do,


though, during the last 15 and 20 years, was indulge News


International and the Murdochs, I did not court the Murdochs, and I


have very strong particular personal reasons for not having


done that. Do you think they have had a bad influence on this


country? I think that their power has been too great, I think it has


been insufficiently challenged by successive Governments, I think


they have been courted far too actively by politicians, and I'm


glad that ...Including You? Not me. Including the Labour Party under


your leadership? Certain lie by my party, that will not - certainly by


my party, that will not be the case in the future. We will talk more


about Labour's time in office and what they need to claim back office


on Wednesday, as we hear views on what they got wrong when it comes


to the welfare state. That is quite to the welfare state. That is quite


We have a bit of a mixture again tomorrow, varying amounts of


sunshine, starting off cloudy, I suspect, a bit of rain and drizzle


here and there. No great amounts, that will fade away. Eastern areas


of the UK will stay cloudy. Further west sunshine coming through. Much


brighter for North West England compared with north-east England.


Cool, cloudy weather right the way down the eastern side of England. A


cooler, cloudier day in the south- east of England than today, dry by


the afternoon. There will be a bit more sunshine, watch out for misty


low cloud around some of the coasts of Cornwall, for Devon, the West


Country, sunshine around here. More sunshine than in Wales, should be


dry in the afternoon, temperatures hitting 23 degrees along the south


coast. For Northern Ireland the south west will be cloudy, the


north-east will be sunny, a warmer sunnier day in Antrim and Down than


today. The west of Scotland nice in terms of sunshine, the east not as


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