25/07/2011 Newsnight


25/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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The man who thought he could defend his country's values by murdering

:00:09.:00:12.

its children is in solitary confinement tonight. The terrorist

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wasn't a bearded Islamic fundamentalist, but a clean-cut

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young man with fair hair. Steve Rosenberg has been watching as the

:00:21.:00:25.

people of Norway remember his victims and comfort each other.

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His methods have been condemned by the Norwegian authorities and the

:00:28.:00:33.

public, but how deep is nationalist sentiment here and across Europe.

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Newsnight has discovered claim from a member of the English Defence

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League, who says Anders Behring Breivik went on an EDL demo only

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last year. Their leader, Stephen Lennon is here to explain.

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It is said they couldn't agree how to solve a Rubik's Cube, where all

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the squares are the same colour, is there any chance of Barack Obama

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and Congress solving the American budget crisis. Peter Mandelson

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admits the Labour Government got some things wrong. That is not true,

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you are exaggerating, as they say, to make a point. REPORTER: I'm

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slightly right aren't I? You are only very slightly right. Live

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without deviation and repetition, he will tell us what they should do

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:01:32.:01:33.

There were 100,000 or more people on the streets of Oslo this evening,

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demonstrating their support for the 76 people who were murdered by a

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gunman, who claimed to be defending Europe from cultural Marxism, and

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an Islamic takeover. The alleged killer, Anders Behring Breivik, has

:01:46.:01:50.

been remanded in solitary confinement, while police

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investigate his links to far right groups. The central question

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remains, was this the action of a solitary deranged individual, or do

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his actions reflect a wider unease both in Norway and perhaps beyond,

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about immigration and asylum-seeker, which people like Breivik can

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exploit. Steve Rosenberg is in Oslo, for Newsnight.

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This was the moment that nation stopped to remember its dead. In

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Oslo and across Norway, there was one minute of silence, after one

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day of terror. Even before he was brought to the courthouse, Anders

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Behring Breivik had admitted he carried out the attacks in Oslo and

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the youth camp. But he didn't accept he had committed crime. At

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the court hearing, which was closed, Anders Behring Breivik said he had

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accomplice, two more terror cells, to help him carry out his plan.

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TRANSLATION: Anders Behring Breivik, born on February 14th 1979, may be

:02:59.:03:03.

held in custody until it is decided otherwise by the prosecution and

:03:03.:03:09.

the court, but not on September 26th 2011. He will have ban on

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letters, visits and media throughout the whole custody period,

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as well as complete isolation until August 22nd 2011. If there were

:03:18.:03:27.

acomplises, were they in the UK? In his 1500-page manifesto, which

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Breivik had posted on-line, he kwhraimed claimed to have contact

:03:30.:03:35.

with the far right in Britain. There is a concern, but there are

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no specific information that is it is orderated. It looks like he's

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more hoping for some kind of copy cat attack. That he's the avant

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garde of the moment, he's showing the way, and hoping others will

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follow. This is the moment Norwegian police headed to the

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island, an hour after the shooting began.

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Many in Norway assumed their country was being attacked by

:04:05.:04:10.

Islamic terrorists. But this wasn't the work of Al-Qaeda, it was a

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Norwegian extremist, who committed mass murder. Cold blooded killing

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by man who called himself a patriot. So had Norway underestimated the

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threat from home-grown terrorism? I don't think it has been

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overlooked, actually, back in the 1980s. We had some isolated

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environments of far right extremism, and they were taken quite seriously

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in the sense that the police focused on them, and the school

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system focused on them. And society took some broad concerted efforts

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to reduce their impact, which I think has been successful. We have

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much less of it in our political culture than relatively similar

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countries. But today, the police Security Service revealed it had

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flagged Breivik in March, when he had purchased chemicals from a

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Polish business. They said it wasn't significant enough to pursue.

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Part of the problem of identifying potential threats is the way the

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far right operates has changed. During the last few years we have

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seen the emergence of an anti-Islam movement, which has a very

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different character. They are not street orientated, they are not

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organisations who gather in meetings and demonstrations or

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anything like that, they mainly sit behind computers and write

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statement ones blogs and read letters, and are quite advise

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invisible. Through mass murder the gunman said

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he wanted to spark a revolution across Europe, to create a new

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society. So far he hasn't succeeded. Following the massacre, Norway is

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united in grief and disbelief at what happened. Anders Behring

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Breivik sees himself as a crusader against Islam, against immigration,

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against multiculturalism, the very foundation of modern European

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society. And while the Norwegian authorities and the public condemn

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his methods and his extreme message, nationalist sentiment has taken

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route here. This is a part of Oslo that has seen a huge influx of

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immigrants over the last 20 years. Most of the people here have come

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from Somalia, Pakistan and Iraq. The Norwegian Progress Party wants

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curbs on immigration, their growing popularity match that is of other

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political forces across Scandinavia. Like the Swedish Democrats, the

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Danish People's Party, and the True Finns. In Norway the scale of

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immigration has transformed the country. Barring a minority in the

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far north, this country was Lily white as late as in the late 1960s.

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I myself was born in 1959, I grew up in Oslo, I was 17 years old

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before I met a person of colour that I could have a conversation

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with in Norwegian. It is a very different situation to what you

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have in post-colonial Britain. In the course of my adult lifetime

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this has changed enormously. These are people who are often being

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urbanised as they also become Norwegianised. So this has caused a

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number of social problems. This woman was born in Norway, her

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family is originally from Pakistan. Last Friday, when many Norwegians

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thought Islamic terrorists were behind the attacks, her relatives

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received abuse. They said "get out of here", they said it to small

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children. I don't know, it was a horrible reaction. We live in

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Norway, and we are as much Norwegian and we feel the same

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feelings. But tonight, tens of thousands

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gathered in the centre of Oslo, from different communities and

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different faiths. After last week's bloodshed, it showed a

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determination not to let cultural differences divide their country.

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Steve Rosenberg joins us from Oslo now.

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What's the mood there tonight? Standing here, by this huge carpet

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of flowers, and candle, by the Cathedral, I have been watching the

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stream of people coming here to pay their respects, and the one thing

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that has struck me, more than anything, is, that represented here

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is this whole spectrum of Norwegian society, different races, different

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religions, native Norwegian, the immigrant community. Everyone is

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united in grief, united in this tragedy. Multicull curlism is now,

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of course, a - multiculturalism, is now, of course a controversial

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thing across Europe, many leaders claiming that multiculturalism has

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failed. And we seem to have lost the link there, unfortunately.

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David Cameron said today that the Government here was taking

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extremely seriously those claims that Anders Behring Breivik had

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links to far right groups in this country. The organisation whose

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name has been most mentioned is the English Defence League. They say

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they have no official contact with them. A claim I will be examining

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with their leader in a moment. First, though, we have been

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investigating. So, what are the English

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connections? As investigators delve into Anders Behring Breivik's past,

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and the causes for concern, the concern is how close to home will

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the trail go. 14 right-wing extremists are already in prison in

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England for offences. The Home Office is so concerned, about 70

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more, who have been accessing terror websites, and threatening

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mass violence, it has had to intervene.

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Particular concerns have been raised about a connection with the

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English Defence League, an anti- Muslim street movement involved in

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violent clashes with anti-fascists and Muslims. I have been following

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the EDL for Newsnight for over a year, including travelling to

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Amsterdam where they met up with their Norwegian counterparts, the

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NDL. As you see today the English Defence League are here today, we

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are not hooligans, we are normal people, we have come here today to

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have our voices heard. The anti- fascist group Searchlight have been

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looking at the co-operation. Here he is under the name Crusader, he

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was in contact with EDL people in March before going underground.

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This posting on the 9th of March, he's congratulating the EDL saying

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they are a blessing to awful Europe, telling them to keep up the good

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work, - all of Europe, telling them to keep up the good work, and

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saying they share a common cause. Here he criticises the

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establishment in Norway, the media, but he particularly targets out the

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Norwegian Labour Party. But, then he says, in a slightly airy way, he

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says he thinks there will be an awakening, at least he hopes so.

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Are you worried members of the EDL could be a serious threat? Yes I am.

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Partly they are driven by the same propaganda, and ideology, but also,

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within it, there are people who are quite dangerous, advocating the use

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of weapons and burning down of mosques. We have done a cursory

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look on the Internet, and found EDL supporters posing with guns. It is

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just an indication of some of the people who are involved in it.

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Daryl Hobson is an EDL member and claims that Breivik Marched with

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the EDL before. He has been arrested at several demonstration,

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including alongside EDL leader, Stephen Lennon, on remembrance day

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last year. Jonathan Birdwell from the think-tank, Demos, is

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undertaking a huge studio of the EDL and other far right movements

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in Europe. If there is evidence he has met with those close to the

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leadership of the EDL, that is incredibly worrying. In terms of

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the actions of those individuals and putting cross hires on people

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like Mr Chouddree. Before you would like to say it is in bad taste or

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driven by bravado. But in fight of the Anders Behring Breivik attack,

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we have to give more serious - in the light of the Anders Behring

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Breivik attack we have to give more serious attention to these groups

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and on the Internet. David Cameron today said the links will not be

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underestimated. We take those claims extremely seriously we will

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look at all the aspects of those claims and we will work very

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closely with the Norwegians, in terms of the police relationship,

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in terms of the security relationship, and the very strong

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political relationship I have with Jens Stoltenberg. We will help them

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in every day we can. Anders Behring Breivik boasted in his manifesto

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about having more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends. Now

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the social networking site is no science, but in a world where this

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rhetoric lives and grows on-line, how much these things are feeding

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one another is cause for alarm. We are joined now by the leader of

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the English Defence League, Stephen Lennon, who also goes by the name,

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Robinson. Did you ever meet Anders Behring Breivik? I never. Can I

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express our deep sympathy for the victims and their families and the

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people of Norway. How was this man allowed on your demonstrations?

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don't believe he has. We should stop speculating and look at the

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facts. I'm looking at evidence from Daryl Hobson, I thought you were

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arrested with him? There were other people arrested on that day, I was

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arrested on that day. You were arrested at the time? No, on the

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same day. Page 148 of his desor e he said we are an anti-Nazi

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organisation, we can't coincide with this organisation because our

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ideologies are so far apart. He has stated that. Mr Hobson has claimed?

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Who is he, he's a random member out of 100,000 members. I thought,

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first of all, we don't know exactly? 100,000 supporters on the

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Internet, he's one of them. More to the point this man. Let's not

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listen to what Daryl Hobson said, let's listen to the psychopath's

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manifesto says, he says we have non-white members and he is

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ideolgically apart from us, he calls us fools. The media are not

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reporting it, we encourage integration. He has 600 EDL

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friends? If you look at mismanifesto, not speculation, on

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page 148, I can read them, if you want. Just tell me, out of his

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manifesto, how much of it do you disagree with, 1500 pages? After

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7/7 would you say this to a Muslim leader do they share the same parts

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of ideology. We believe Islam is a threat. Do we want to stop this

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happening on British soil or play the blame game. I'm trying to

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establish facts about the connections between your

:15:49.:15:55.

organisation and his? The EDL. can quote endlessly? This is his

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manifesto, this is from the man himself. The EDL harshly condemns a

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movement that uses terror as a tool, such as mine, that is why we view

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the EDL as fools, they believe the democratic system can solve the

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problems, they have non-European members. This is what the man said.

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You have also read his listing on one of your forums, "hello to all

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you good Englishmen and women, just wanted to say you are a blessing to

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all in Europe". This was before his manifesto was released. It was

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almost the last thing he published before he disappeared to make his

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bombs? You have seen his manifesto that he released. Do we want to

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learn from this, this man was a sick individual, you can never use

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terror tactics like him. There is an undercurrent of anger, these are

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the facts people should address, there is an undercurrent of anger

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across the whole of Europe and Britain. If you don't address the

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issue and sweep it under the carpet. No-one is sweeping it under the

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carpet, I'm trying to establish the connection between you and him?

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When you agree to peacefully protest, we do. That we get

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condemned for trying to peacefully protest. We can condemn extremism

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and violence, we are what you would want as a grassroot organisation to

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the serious threat. You are with Alan Lake one of your founders?

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is not my mate or a founder. He is a funder? He is not faunder, he has

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never given a penny to the English Defence League. He has written

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speeches for you hasn't he? facts, not speculation. Do you know

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him? I do know him. Do you believe there are dormant racists. Do you

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agree with him when he says this was logical and inevitable, that is

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very close to what you are saying? I am disgusted and sickened by what

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this man done, and every member of the EDL are disgusted, there are

:17:54.:17:59.

dormants racists to be completely racist against Muslims, and sweep

:17:59.:18:02.

the phenomenon of the English Defence League and there are

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British people gravely concerned, the threat of Islam is having on

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our nation. And if you want to solve these problems, you won't

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solve them by dismissing people as racists and putting it out they are

:18:13.:18:17.

there they are lunatic, all people who have concerns against Islam. In

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every country, 24% of Norwegians voted for an anti-Islamic

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organisation. There needs a platform given to people to have

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their concerns heard. This is a peaceful process, you take the

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democratic right away from those people, God knows what they will do.

:18:34.:18:44.
:18:44.:18:47.

Your website which has people in the cross hairs of telescopic

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sights. Your website has pictures of Islamic fundamentalists, in the

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cross hairs of rifle sights? If you refer back to Facebook where anyone

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can put anything on, that is not evidence against our organisation.

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You won't find it on our website, people can check the organisation

:19:06.:19:10.

out, we stand against extremism and contem all acts of violence. But

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you have to - condemn all acts of violence. But you have to give

:19:14.:19:16.

people who are concerned about Islam an opportunity to have a

:19:16.:19:21.

voice, rather than trying to destroy the voice. No-one denies

:19:21.:19:26.

there is lots of anxiety? About Islam. Tremendous anxieties.

:19:26.:19:33.

soon as you say it you are racist. I'm intrigued to know what it is in

:19:33.:19:37.

his 1500-page manifesto you disagree with? To be honest I

:19:37.:19:41.

disagree with murder, I share the same fact that I believe Islam is a

:19:41.:19:43.

threat, but we completely condemn any acts of violence against

:19:43.:19:47.

innocent people. What has happened over there is horrific and will be

:19:47.:19:50.

remembered for the rest of eternity as a disgusting deranged attack.

:19:50.:19:56.

That is what it is, we condemn it and are against it, you can't brush

:19:56.:19:59.

off millions of people who have concerns against Islam as lunatics,

:19:59.:20:02.

when there is serious concerns, we need to have our voices heard. If

:20:02.:20:07.

you try to take the platform of democratic protest. I'm banned for

:20:07.:20:11.

protesting, what about my human rights, human rights are only there

:20:11.:20:15.

for the Muslim community in this country. We are seeing many of our

:20:15.:20:18.

members given ten-year ASBOs for demonstrating. When they are

:20:18.:20:21.

concerned about Islam, they are not allowed to have a demonstration now,

:20:21.:20:24.

this is land of democracy, unless you want to talk about Islam, then

:20:24.:20:28.

it is not. These are genuine concerns, these at this tanks are

:20:28.:20:33.

not doing their jobs, because all the Government organisations don't

:20:33.:20:38.

have a representative from the working-class in this country, that

:20:38.:20:41.

member is me, we are against extreme violence, God for bid this

:20:41.:20:44.

ever happens on British soil, it is a time coming. You are probably

:20:44.:20:48.

five or ten years away. Thank you very much. That sounds almost like

:20:48.:20:52.

a threat? It is not a threat. think something like this could

:20:52.:20:55.

happen in a few years time? believe it could, it is not a

:20:55.:20:59.

threat, it is a wake up call to say we don't want it to happen, let's

:20:59.:21:04.

address the problem. It won't be solved by keep building more

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mosques and Islamic immigration, and not listening to people. Thank

:21:07.:21:10.

you very much. Can it really be true that the

:21:10.:21:14.

world's biggest economy is about to default on its debt? Already the

:21:14.:21:19.

possibility of such an unthinkable thing happening has caused the most

:21:19.:21:25.

senior officials in the US Treasury and Federal Reserve to warn of both

:21:25.:21:29.

catastrophy and calamity. However the American constitution requires

:21:29.:21:33.

the agreement of the President and Congress, as things stand there is

:21:33.:21:37.

no agreement. They have until next Tuesday to pass the deal. President

:21:37.:21:42.

Obama and the Republican leadership in Congress are still locked in mu

:21:42.:21:46.

actual recrimination, but the clock is blrb mutual ce cim nation, but

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the clock is ticking - mutual recriminations, but the clock is

:21:50.:21:55.

ticking. Why does this matter to us? The US spends thrillions of

:21:55.:21:59.

dollars every year, it is the biggest purchasing nation.

:21:59.:22:04.

Thousands of British companies sell directly other indirectly to the US

:22:04.:22:09.

F it wakes up on Monday and decides it can't pay its Wills it goes

:22:09.:22:14.

through all of that. - bills. It goes through all of that. There is

:22:14.:22:19.

the bond market also. As we use the dollar as a reserve currency

:22:19.:22:26.

globally, banks use IOUs, issued by the US Government as a currency

:22:26.:22:30.

between banks. If they default, those IOUs go from being gold

:22:30.:22:35.

plated, to you will always get your money back to default status, where

:22:35.:22:38.

there is no guarantee to get any of your money back. The banks either

:22:38.:22:44.

have to ignore the rules and the facts and carry on as normal, or

:22:44.:22:49.

they stop lending to each other, and balm, the world is in a second

:22:49.:22:54.

credit crunch. Which of the sides is right on that, the President and

:22:54.:22:57.

the associated position of the Democrats or Republicans on Capitol

:22:57.:23:03.

Hill, who is right? There is one fact you can't deny it is the size

:23:03.:23:09.

of the debt. How it got to $14 trillion, under Bush it creeps up,

:23:09.:23:12.

but under President Obama it rockets. He is fighting two wars,

:23:12.:23:17.

he is spending his way out of recession with a fiscal stimlau, he

:23:17.:23:23.

has kept the tax cuts that - stimulus, he kept the tax cuts that

:23:23.:23:26.

Bush started. You can't do that. If the economy was growing we wouldn't

:23:26.:23:30.

have the debate. Many economists say the stimulus hasn't worked, the

:23:30.:23:35.

only way out of recession is to cut the deficit, just as it is a

:23:35.:23:39.

completely respectable position to have here, not a called, as Stephen

:23:39.:23:42.

McCabe, right-wing nuter position. Many economists believe the only

:23:42.:23:47.

way out for the US is to cut its deficit. If that right-wing

:23:47.:23:51.

Republican opposition believes that it is the last chance to cut the

:23:51.:23:58.

deficit, they will fight to the very last minute. We are joined

:23:58.:24:02.

from capitol hill by Earl Blumenauer, a Democrat member of

:24:02.:24:08.

the budget committee, and a Republican member of the House

:24:08.:24:11.

Financial Services Committee. When you look at the damage this is

:24:11.:24:15.

already doing to your country, it is a very dangerous game that is

:24:15.:24:20.

being played, isn't it? Well, but also think of the flip side of that.

:24:20.:24:27.

If you were to look at the Moody's and SNP documents we got a few

:24:27.:24:32.

months ago, they made it very clear if we do not demonstrate we are

:24:32.:24:37.

bending our debt curve we will head towards a downgrade. There will

:24:37.:24:45.

start being a premium on our debt. We are that that - in that

:24:45.:24:48.

juxtaposition where it is demonstrating a credible plan to

:24:48.:24:54.

deal with the sizing of the debt. Earl Blumenauer you can't carry on

:24:54.:25:00.

spending like a drunkle sailor, can you? Nobody is suggesting that. You

:25:00.:25:04.

referenced at the top that there are several things in play on top

:25:04.:25:08.

of that, not two unfunded war, but the another collapse of the economy.

:25:08.:25:13.

Bear in mind the economic stimulus was 40% additional tax cuts over

:25:13.:25:19.

and above the Bush tax cuts. But the issue here is, I think, more

:25:19.:25:27.

fundamental, even my Republican friend's budget will require $8

:25:27.:25:31.

trillion of additional borrowing. How you do this is get serious

:25:31.:25:35.

about raising revenue, about changing spending patterns to

:25:35.:25:39.

reduce spending, but don't play chicken with the debt ceiling. We

:25:39.:25:45.

are going to pay our debts, hopefully we don't have to be

:25:45.:25:48.

punished by international markets to force us to do that. The most

:25:48.:25:52.

direct thing we should do is about be the business, with dealing with

:25:52.:25:57.

what all the experts agree, needs to be a balanced approach, which

:25:57.:26:01.

most of the American public agrees needs to be balanced. Which is some

:26:01.:26:05.

revenue, some programme cuts, and changing how we do business. Right,

:26:06.:26:10.

you have used the expression playing chicken, in a sense

:26:10.:26:16.

everyone is playing chicken here, is there going to be a deal?

:26:16.:26:21.

there going to be a deal? There will be something that will happen,

:26:21.:26:30.

probably before the August deadline, I suspect given the lateness of the

:26:30.:26:34.

hour and the vast differences in opinions that it will be more of a

:26:34.:26:37.

short-term activity. How do you see it, do you think there will be a

:26:37.:26:43.

deal? I would prefer the use of the word "a plan", I have to agree with

:26:43.:26:46.

the Congressman, we may end up with a short-term deal. There is one

:26:46.:26:52.

point, I think the Congressman was touching on it. We have quite

:26:52.:26:56.

adequate cashflows to cover our coupons, our bonded indebtedness,

:26:56.:27:02.

anyone who uses the word "default", it is horribly unfair and

:27:02.:27:05.

inaccurate. What is a more interesting discussion is the 40%

:27:05.:27:08.

of federal spending in the United States, that is financed through

:27:08.:27:13.

borrowing. That is really the debate you are seeing, is how long

:27:13.:27:17.

is that capable of being covered, and if we don't demonstrate a

:27:17.:27:22.

bending of that curve, will we be punished by the rating agencies, no

:27:22.:27:28.

matter what the deal looks like. respectfully disagree. There will

:27:28.:27:31.

be efforts to try to make fundamental changes in terms of how

:27:31.:27:37.

we do business. But the notion that some how we have enough money to

:27:37.:27:43.

satisfy all our obligations without adjusting the debt ceiling in the

:27:43.:27:49.

course of the next week, is rejected by former Republican

:27:49.:27:54.

secretaries of the Treasury, by independent analysts, you may

:27:54.:28:00.

reward Chinese investors and maybe punish British contractors to the

:28:00.:28:04.

American Government. But you don't have enough money to do it all. If

:28:04.:28:11.

you don't do all of it, on schedule, then you are raising a real

:28:11.:28:15.

question about what the Federal Government's reliability going

:28:15.:28:17.

forward. I don't think anybody wants that. And you were talking

:28:18.:28:24.

about this actually earlier, is the portion of US contracts that there

:28:24.:28:27.

would not be cashflow to pay. Once again, you can't use the language

:28:27.:28:32.

of default on bonds, which cause that is a function of coupons, and

:28:32.:28:37.

we see if you even look at our bond futures as of 20 minutes ago, they

:28:37.:28:42.

are still flat, we are still sitting right around the 3% on the

:28:42.:28:49.

ten. So there is so much liquidity in the US debt, it is a so much

:28:49.:28:52.

more interesting and difficult discussion to talk about the 40% we

:28:52.:28:55.

finance through borrowing, that is the honest discussion there. What

:28:55.:29:00.

Dave and his colleagues would do, ironically is give to the President

:29:00.:29:03.

of the United States and the secretary of the Treasury the

:29:03.:29:08.

discretion to decide which they are going to do. Are they going to

:29:08.:29:12.

honour our...That Is technically wrong, I'm one of the spopbs sors

:29:12.:29:19.

of the bills that would step up and priorityways that debt. No bill has

:29:19.:29:22.

passed - prioritise that debt. No bill was passed. And you would give

:29:23.:29:27.

the President the choice to make that decision. As the law is in

:29:27.:29:32.

existence today. It won't be next week. What is that extraordinary

:29:32.:29:39.

green bicycle on your lapel? Quickly. I'm bike partisan, this is

:29:39.:29:44.

the congression bike caucus membership. Which is buy partisan

:29:44.:29:54.

caucus. Labour MPs had a slight spring in

:29:54.:29:58.

their steps as they set, or at least weren't as dejected as they

:29:58.:30:02.

had been before the phone hacking scandal on which their party has

:30:02.:30:06.

made much of the running. The big question to which they will be

:30:06.:30:09.

returning later in the week is what will it make for the party to be

:30:09.:30:14.

re-electable. We start with the man who put the "new "into new Labour.

:30:14.:30:20.

Peter Mandelson, he's conducting a - an investigation into

:30:20.:30:24.

globalisation for the IPPR think- tank. And along the way he's

:30:24.:30:27.

prepared to admit there are some things his party got wrong.

:30:27.:30:37.
:30:37.:30:37.

Paul Mason reports. It's 8.00am, and Lord Mandelson is

:30:37.:30:42.

on a journey, he's headed for the north-east of England. Mission, to

:30:42.:30:46.

resell the idea of globalisation to Labour's voting base. At the heart

:30:46.:30:50.

of the problem is what happened to manufacturing. During 13 years of a

:30:50.:30:56.

Labour Government, manufacturing fell from 18% of GDP to just under

:30:56.:31:00.

1%. And though Labour created three million jobs, 1.3 manufacturing

:31:00.:31:06.

jobs were lost. In the 1980s the Government actually said, the Prime

:31:06.:31:10.

Minister actually said, and the entire Government machine was

:31:10.:31:17.

geared to the belief that we in Britain could no longer be an

:31:17.:31:22.

engineering, manufacturing, advanced technology economy. Every

:31:22.:31:28.

Government policy heaped prejudice and obstacle and further barrier

:31:28.:31:33.

against those non-financial sector parts of our economy. And we, hold

:31:33.:31:43.
:31:43.:31:43.

on, and when we, me, us, we came in 1997, we continued that too far,

:31:43.:31:48.

too much. So there is a bit of a mea culpa going on here on

:31:48.:31:58.
:31:58.:32:01.

industrial policy for Labour. At the port of Tyne, cars build at

:32:01.:32:07.

the Nissan Sunderland plant are set for export, for Asia and the Middle

:32:07.:32:13.

East, not just Europe. Labour sees Nissan as a success

:32:13.:32:17.

story, the dying Brown Government persuaded the Japanese giant to

:32:17.:32:21.

choose Britain as the site for its new electric car engines. Why do

:32:21.:32:25.

they want to bring them all the way from here? Because we are

:32:25.:32:29.

competitive. But he's all too well aware that other European

:32:29.:32:32.

Governments do for more their own industrial base, than Labour did in

:32:32.:32:37.

office. And there are calls for more protectionism within his own

:32:37.:32:41.

party. Out there, in Europe, you are up against a bunch of

:32:41.:32:46.

protectionists, what can you do about it? That is no not true, you

:32:46.:32:51.

are exaggerating, as they say to make a point. I am slightly right,

:32:51.:33:00.

aren't I? Only very slightly right. But we have to watch that.

:33:00.:33:04.

Newcastle City Council, now back under Labour control, Lord

:33:04.:33:08.

Mandelson meets local business people, unions and the council

:33:08.:33:15.

leader. You seem to be full of vim and vigour. We will come back in a

:33:15.:33:22.

year's time. They will look like you! I don't quite know what you

:33:22.:33:27.

mean by that! None of these people see globalisation as a threat, it

:33:27.:33:30.

is just after 13 years of a Labour Government and one of coalition,

:33:30.:33:35.

they worry the skills are just not there to drive an industrial

:33:35.:33:39.

Rennaissance. We have to decline people entering what you would call

:33:39.:33:46.

core stem subjects into the FE sector, that was after national

:33:46.:33:50.

2001-2006, there was a 50% decline. We have fallen off a cliff and kept

:33:50.:33:54.

falling. It would be a priority for you all to go into the schools and

:33:54.:33:58.

take this message. You will find the people who run the schools very,

:33:58.:34:05.

very reluctant to start encouraging pupils in one vocational direction

:34:06.:34:13.

as opposed to another. So what did you make of that?

:34:13.:34:22.

tell you what I made of it, I made of it that there is a very, very

:34:22.:34:26.

strong enterprise base to the north-east economy. That it is, it

:34:26.:34:31.

has changed and is still changing. There is a nightmare, isn't there,

:34:31.:34:34.

for Labour, that is the coalition's the first Government that has

:34:34.:34:38.

really spelt out the country needs to rebalance, it is a forced

:34:38.:34:42.

rebalancing, driven by fiscal policy. What if it works, what if

:34:42.:34:46.

it works where your approach didn't? I would be absolutely

:34:46.:34:55.

delighted. To see a more modern economy, manufacturing advanced

:34:55.:35:00.

manufacturing, backed and becoming more successful. I would be very

:35:00.:35:03.

happy to see a more thriving private sector, business enterprise

:35:03.:35:07.

sector in this country. They did it by cutting back the state, they are

:35:07.:35:10.

cutting back the state, you didn't? That is the point I'm making,

:35:10.:35:14.

cutting back the state is not in itself a solution, when you are

:35:14.:35:19.

cutting back the essential state support for business and new

:35:19.:35:25.

enterprise, new sectors and new markets. At an FE college in

:35:25.:35:30.

Hartlepool, his old constituency, Lord Mandelson south-east sees the

:35:30.:35:33.

entire debate between Labour's support base between the' present

:35:33.:35:38.

tiss. One thinks all the jobs - apprentice, one thinks all the jobs

:35:38.:35:42.

are going to foreigner its, the other one has no problem.

:35:42.:35:47.

factory where you I work people from Germany, Japan, Brazil, just

:35:47.:35:51.

an engineer coming from Brazil to help us with the work, there is

:35:51.:35:55.

people from all over the world. Hartlepool today is still a town of

:35:55.:35:58.

high unemployment, still suffering from the deindustrialisation of the

:35:58.:36:06.

past 30 years. How far does mea culpa translate into English? You

:36:06.:36:10.

don't feel like saying to them, implicitly, sorry, we didn't have

:36:10.:36:15.

an industrial policy for all those years, sorry we did tell you that

:36:15.:36:21.

wealth would trickle doin and it hasn't. You don't - trickle down

:36:21.:36:26.

and it hasn't. You don't feel like apologising for what Labour did in

:36:26.:36:29.

office? What people felt more at the end of our time in Government,

:36:29.:36:33.

than they did at the beginning s first they had a Government that

:36:33.:36:36.

cared about them, secondly, a Government prepared to invest in

:36:36.:36:40.

them and their town, and thirdly, people prepared to plug them into a

:36:41.:36:43.

different, changing economy here in the north-east and in the country

:36:43.:36:48.

as a whole, and prepared to put ourselves out to get them sof

:36:48.:36:53.

welfare into work, reskilled, available to do the jobs, more

:36:53.:36:56.

confident to take the opportunities for the jobs to be created. There

:36:56.:37:02.

are a lot of people still on welfare in the north-east? And few

:37:02.:37:05.

people than if they didn't have Labour Government in power for 13

:37:05.:37:09.

years. That is where Labour is stuck for

:37:09.:37:14.

now, somewhere between defending its record in office and moving on.

:37:14.:37:19.

Lord Mandelson is here now. When exactly did you realise you

:37:19.:37:25.

had been too enthralled to the market? My experience in Europe,

:37:26.:37:30.

when I went off to be Trade Commissioner, and I saw European

:37:30.:37:33.

continental prakti, but I also travelled around the world. -

:37:33.:37:36.

practice, but I also travelled around the world. There was no

:37:36.:37:40.

continent I didn't visit. I saw in all those countries, particularly

:37:40.:37:46.

those nearest to home, a much more strategic, smarter, more activist

:37:46.:37:50.

role for Government acting with markets and with the private sector.

:37:50.:37:55.

Governments who looked after their own people as opposed to what went

:37:55.:38:00.

on here? It was not what the Labour Government was wrong, what we did

:38:01.:38:05.

was right, but ultimately we didn't do enough. Manufacturing output

:38:05.:38:08.

fell faster when you were in office than it did under Margaret

:38:08.:38:11.

Thatcher? We also had the longest sustained period of economic growth

:38:11.:38:14.

in this country under a Labour Government than we have seen since

:38:14.:38:19.

the war. The reason. You know where we are now as a consequence? That

:38:19.:38:24.

has other causes. But what we got right was the huge investment in

:38:25.:38:29.

the supply side of the economy, and skills and science, and

:38:29.:38:33.

infrastructure, we were right to acouldn't a pro-enterprise approach

:38:33.:38:41.

to - encourage a pro-enterprise approach to business. We were right

:38:41.:38:44.

to maintain flexibility and competitiveness of labour, product

:38:44.:38:48.

and capital markets. Where we didn't do enough, however, was in

:38:48.:38:54.

acting with the private sector, with markets, to give a lift, to

:38:54.:38:59.

give a particular help to particular sectors, technologies,

:38:59.:39:02.

growing markets, where our future jobs were going to be created. We

:39:02.:39:08.

didn't do enough. Do you think you were also too enthralled to the

:39:08.:39:11.

banks? No, I don't think we were enthrafld to the banks. I think

:39:11.:39:18.

what we - enthrafled to the banks. What we had inherited was a

:39:18.:39:22.

throwing financial services sector, that was generating a colossal

:39:22.:39:25.

amount of wealth, revenue and employment in our economy. What I

:39:25.:39:30.

do, however, think, is we became overexposed to the financial sector.

:39:30.:39:34.

That meant when it went wrong, our exposure, and therefore the

:39:34.:39:38.

consequences for our economy, was much greater than those that had

:39:38.:39:42.

less exposure to the financial sector. Do you also accept that you

:39:42.:39:48.

failed in education, in terms of turning out people who were fit for

:39:48.:39:51.

the jobs that might become available? That was the evidence we

:39:51.:39:55.

saw in the film, surely? That was not the evidence you saw on the

:39:55.:40:00.

film. What we did. I thought that was what the business leaders were

:40:00.:40:04.

telling you? No, what they were saying is there was an insufficient

:40:04.:40:09.

bias in favour of science, technology, engineering and

:40:09.:40:14.

mathematics graduates coming from the further and higher education

:40:14.:40:18.

sector. It doesn't mean to say we failed in education. You failed in

:40:18.:40:21.

education to meet the needs of industry? I don't think that is

:40:21.:40:26.

true. Not in the basics. But I do think that part of the bias that

:40:26.:40:31.

had grown up in our country, against manufacturing, against

:40:31.:40:35.

engineering, against science, was not sufficiently turned round

:40:35.:40:41.

during our period in Government. We expanded higheredcation, the -

:40:41.:40:45.

education, the quality of it, the volume of people going through

:40:45.:40:51.

higher education all expanded. I'm afraid we did, insufficient, in my

:40:51.:40:56.

view, to live down and reverse that historic prejudice against science

:40:56.:41:03.

and engineering andatics, that had grown in our - and mathematics,

:41:03.:41:08.

that had grown in our country during the 1980s. When you hear

:41:08.:41:13.

that young man speaking how he has Chinese, Brazilians, people from

:41:13.:41:18.

all over Europe, coming to take jobs. And you contrast it with

:41:18.:41:23.

Gordon Brown's talk about British jobs for British workers, something

:41:23.:41:30.

went certificate yuesly awry? seriously awry? We went round the

:41:30.:41:34.

table and I asked all the young people about global yoisation,

:41:34.:41:39.

about us having - globalisation, about us having to face competition

:41:39.:41:44.

from the major economies, only one exception said they wanted to

:41:44.:41:46.

travel and could see opportunities for employment, and us working

:41:46.:41:51.

together with these economies, to earn our living in the global

:41:51.:41:55.

economy in the future. I was very encouraged by that, it is a truth.

:41:55.:41:58.

We are not going to earn our living during the course of this century,

:41:58.:42:04.

by running away from the global economy, and pretending that

:42:04.:42:07.

globalisation doesn't exist. Has Ed Miliband learned the lessons you

:42:07.:42:10.

have learned? I think he has, during the two years we were

:42:10.:42:15.

working together, when I came back to Government, he was energy and

:42:15.:42:18.

climate change secretary, I was the Business Innovation and Skills

:42:18.:42:22.

Secretary. We worked very closely together, in delivering an

:42:22.:42:28.

industrial strategy to bring about a low carbon transition in this

:42:28.:42:35.

country. Not just the importing of energy and manufactureed goods from

:42:35.:42:39.

abroad, but making them in this country. That required certain

:42:39.:42:42.

heavy lifting, certain pump priming, certain strategic interventions

:42:42.:42:48.

from the Government, which he and I were prepared to deliver, the sort

:42:48.:42:51.

of industrial activism, I think and I accept now we should have

:42:51.:42:55.

operated more on in our time in Government. Has he yet found what

:42:55.:42:59.

you failed to detect in the early days of his campaign, which was a

:42:59.:43:03.

substitute for new Labour? I don't think he has, no. It would not

:43:03.:43:11.

appear that he has a found of - a substitute of new Labour. We know

:43:11.:43:14.

new Labour is buried. We don't know what will take its place. That I'm

:43:15.:43:18.

sure will emerge during the course of the coming year. He has had a

:43:18.:43:21.

good run on the hacking story, hasn't he? There are two

:43:21.:43:25.

observations I would make about the state of the party under Ed, one

:43:25.:43:31.

internal and unextrpbl, the internal one is we haven't -

:43:31.:43:37.

external, the internal one is we haven't fallen apart in disunity

:43:37.:43:41.

and acrimony as we have before in opposition. The courage and

:43:41.:43:44.

leadership he showed over News International, and Murdoch, has

:43:44.:43:50.

earned him a hearing in the country. He has made his mark, now he has to

:43:50.:43:56.

say things which are even more of interest to people, on the standard

:43:56.:43:59.

policy areas which concern people, the economy, the future of the

:43:59.:44:02.

welfare state, public services, and taxation.

:44:02.:44:07.

And on the hacking story, I mean in the unlikely event your diary was

:44:07.:44:12.

empty this weekend and the Murdochs invited you to a party, would you

:44:12.:44:17.

go? I won't actually be in the country next weekend. If your diary

:44:17.:44:21.

were empty, is my question? If my diary was empty would I go to a

:44:21.:44:25.

party with Rupert Murdoch, I think on balance, the answer to that is,

:44:25.:44:31.

no. But you, of course, were at Elizabeth Murdochs, just a couple

:44:31.:44:35.

of days before the Milly Dowler revelations? I was at a party of

:44:35.:44:40.

Elizabeth and her husband, and I certainly wouldn't turn my back on

:44:40.:44:45.

any friend I have. Whichever family they belong to. What I did not do,

:44:45.:44:52.

though, during the last 15 and 20 years, was indulge News

:44:52.:44:56.

International and the Murdochs, I did not court the Murdochs, and I

:44:56.:44:58.

have very strong particular personal reasons for not having

:44:58.:45:02.

done that. Do you think they have had a bad influence on this

:45:02.:45:07.

country? I think that their power has been too great, I think it has

:45:07.:45:09.

been insufficiently challenged by successive Governments, I think

:45:09.:45:14.

they have been courted far too actively by politicians, and I'm

:45:14.:45:20.

glad that ...Including You? Not me. Including the Labour Party under

:45:20.:45:24.

your leadership? Certain lie by my party, that will not - certainly by

:45:24.:45:28.

my party, that will not be the case in the future. We will talk more

:45:28.:45:34.

about Labour's time in office and what they need to claim back office

:45:34.:45:38.

on Wednesday, as we hear views on what they got wrong when it comes

:45:38.:45:45.

to the welfare state. That is quite to the welfare state. That is quite

:45:46.:45:53.

We have a bit of a mixture again tomorrow, varying amounts of

:45:53.:45:56.

sunshine, starting off cloudy, I suspect, a bit of rain and drizzle

:45:56.:46:00.

here and there. No great amounts, that will fade away. Eastern areas

:46:00.:46:04.

of the UK will stay cloudy. Further west sunshine coming through. Much

:46:04.:46:07.

brighter for North West England compared with north-east England.

:46:07.:46:11.

Cool, cloudy weather right the way down the eastern side of England. A

:46:11.:46:15.

cooler, cloudier day in the south- east of England than today, dry by

:46:15.:46:19.

the afternoon. There will be a bit more sunshine, watch out for misty

:46:19.:46:23.

low cloud around some of the coasts of Cornwall, for Devon, the West

:46:23.:46:27.

Country, sunshine around here. More sunshine than in Wales, should be

:46:27.:46:31.

dry in the afternoon, temperatures hitting 23 degrees along the south

:46:32.:46:34.

coast. For Northern Ireland the south west will be cloudy, the

:46:34.:46:40.

north-east will be sunny, a warmer sunnier day in Antrim and Down than

:46:40.:46:44.

today. The west of Scotland nice in terms of sunshine, the east not as

:46:44.:46:54.
:46:54.:47:06.

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