10/08/2011 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.

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Tonight parts of our society are Tonight parts of our society are


sick, according to the Prime sick, according to the Prime


Minister. It comes after three men were left dead this morning after


night of rioting and unrest. Anything I ever wanted done,


always ask Haroon to sort it out me, not my eldest or my daughter,


but my youngest. And they killed him. The Prime Minister says


is something fundamentally wrong with the country. There are pockets


of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick. So


drives the looters? Greed? Hopelessness? No moral sense? Look


around here, what have they got? They got nothing. That doesn't give


them a right to smash the place up. They was talk to go us. Have I


condoned it? Do you think it's that someone is shot in


nothing? We will be Sayeeda Warsi and Labour's Diane


Abbott if they agree with David Cameron's diagnosis of a


society and what medicine they prescribe. Residents pull together


to defend and protect their neighbourhoods, but is there


danger of vigilantism? We ain't having all these people coming up


here and ruining our place, right, burning our town down, right? We are


going to make a stand. And markets dive and bank shares plunge as fears


grow about France's debt. started running hard today to


re-establish law and order the initiative on the riots in


English cities. Announcing a fightback, he declared that in areas


of our city, they are in some way sick. This comes amid moves to


withdraw social housing from convicted rioters and the Mayor


called for planned police cuts to be reconsidered. Disturbances continued


last night in many areas. said rioters brought shame on the


streets of Manchester, with shops smashed and goods taken and


they described serious violence in Liverpool. A police station was fire


bombed in Nottingham and there was unrest in Leicester and Gloucester.


Tonight in the capital it is reported to be largely quiet but


England's second largest city perhaps more tense than most. The


death of three young Muslims in Birmingham is being treated


murder by the police. That's we begin, in a city with a history


of ethnic violence and which the edge tonight. Liz MacKean spent


In Birmingham tonight residents are In Birmingham tonight residents are


being asked to trust the police to keep the streets safe. But some are


taking precautions anyway. As in London, there has been a surge of


officers on patrol, to protect property from looters and to ensure


there's no retaliation after the murders of three Asian men.


I think they are dead. They are I think they are dead. They are


dead. These pictures were taken at 1.00am this morning just after a car


had been driven at speed towards a group of men, hitting three of them.


I heard the thud, ran round and seen three people on the ground.


Tariq Jahan heard the collision ran to help, not realising that one


of those fatally injured was his son, 21-year-old Haroon. I heard


the thud, ran round and I seen three people on the ground. My instinct


was to help the three people. didn't know who they were,


been injured. I helped the first man and somebody from behind told me


that my son was lying behind me so I started CPR on my own son. My


was covered in blad, my covered in blood. Why? Two brothers,


Shahzad Ali and Abdul Musavir, 30 and 31, also died. They had been


among a group of 80 local men walking along the streets to guard


property, including the mosque today the men were remembered in


prayers. People who had known them struggled to come to terms


their deaths. They were innocent young lads who were killed, murdered


by a gang of thugs, call them what you want. There was no reason for


it. We didn't know them, they didn't know us. Just because we are


standing outside our business they didn't like it. Until last


night, this area around Dudley Road had largely


that has afflicted other the city. At the moment there's more


disbelief than anger at what has happened here, but in either case


people are demanding answers. For some that we've spoken to, it's


case of criminality, nothing more than that. Others believe


fact it points to underlying tensions between the different


In the past, those tensions have led In the past, those tensions have led


to violence between Asians and blacks. People here say they get


along easily enough, but the clashes are not forgotten. As we are growing


up, when you see riots at this age, and then when you grow up you see it


again, you have to take part, you have to keep them away. We feel the


police can't defend us. We are taking defensive measures basically


just to avert trouble from us. It's really bad round here because people


don't trust the black Some are good but some are not good


and they are really attacking us and some are really scared.


stresses were acknowledged by police today who confirmed that a


32-year-old black man has arrested on suspicion of murder. I


would appeal to people, at this time, to be calm. If we are


calm I'm absolutely confident that the people of the West Midlands can


get through this for us strange and difficult phase and that we can


rebuild trust between communities and move on with a sense of purpose.


But it seemed to be reassurance that people want most. They gathered


community centre to demand greater protection from both police and


politicians. Those that couldn't fit in waited outside. News of the


meeting was broadcast by a local community TV station, beamed around


the world. Most of Sangat TV's programmes are in Punjabi, so reach


not just Sikhs but Muslims and Hindus. Since the rioting spread in


the West Midlands on Monday, the TV station has been streaming live


footage. They believe it has helped to keep those different communities


informed and more stable. What we try to do actually, to save


community there, to save their values, their shops and everything


just by informing them and saving the community - this is what it


stands for, the whole congregation is about the community and how to


protect each other. Haroon Jahan's father said there should be no


revenge as he paid tribute to a good and gifted son. I don't


nobody. I'm a Muslim and I believe in divine fate and destiny


was his destiny and his fate and he has gone. May Allah forgive him


and bless him. That's all I have to say, no more, thank you very much.


So far tonight his appeal for restraint is being heard. Police,


who have made more than 300 since the trouble began, say they


will continue their high visibility presence as an uneasy calm settles


That was Liz MacKean reporting from That was Liz MacKean reporting from


That was Liz MacKean reporting from Birmingham, so what did David


Birmingham, so what did David Birmingham, so what did David


That was Liz MacKean Cameron mean by drawing attention to


pockets of our society which he claimed are "sick"? David


has been trying to find out what the sickness might be and what cures


be on offer. Peckham residents are using Post-it


notes to send messages, think about the riots, what they


think about living in Peckham and what they think have caused it all.


Messages too are here from businesses, trying to keep going.


One thing it's not is "business as One thing it's not is "business as


usual" for the politicians. For a start, their summer holidays have


all been interrupted as Parliament re-assembles tomorrow. Part of their


job now is to define why all riots happened. What were the causes


and crucially how can they stop them happening again?


The Prime Minister's message today The Prime Minister's message today


was: the fightback has begun. police can, if they think they need


them, use water cannon and plastic bullets, and while he was at it Mr


Cameron fired off his own stinging rebuke. Good morning. There are


pockets of our society that just broken, but frankly sick. When


we see children as young as 13 looting and laughing, when we see


the disgusting sight of an young man with people pretending to


help him while they are robbing him, it is clear there are things that


are badly wrong in our society. For me, the root cause of this mindless


selfishness is the same thing that I've spoken about for years. It is a


complete lack of responsibility parts of our society, people allowed


to feel that the world owes them something, that their rights


outweigh their responsibilities and that their actions do not


consequences. Well, they do have consequences.


This was a very different sounding This was a very different sounding


David Cameron to the one who, in opposition, invited us to understand


the hoodie wearer a bit more. So when you see a child walking down a


street, hoodie up, head down, moody, swaggering, dominating the pavement,


think what has brought that child that moment. That is what


Labour has so far struggled to post Labour has so far struggled to post


a distinctive message of their own. On last night's Newsnight the deputy


leader Harriet Harman did try to develop one linking the riots with


government cuts. There is a sense that young people feel they


being listened to. That is not justify violence, but I think that


when you've got the trebling tuition fees, they should think


again about that. When you've got the EMA being taken away, jobs being


cut and youth unemployment and they are shutting the Jobcentre


in Camberwell, well you should think again about that because this is


going to cost money. This does not help. All of this does not


reduce the deficit. A U gov poll The Sun newspaper today


this is not a popular explanation. When asked, 42% blamed the riots


criminal behaviour. .


David Cameron commissioned Field to look at policy and life


chances and in his report he identified parenting as the key


factor. I don't sense the Prime Minister has taken any of that on


board. I think the government regards this as sort of a fluffy


topic maybe to comment on occasionally. They don't see it as


central to the maintenance of a free society which has boundaries to that


Back in Peckham, there was some Back in Peckham, there was some


Back in Peckham, there was some agreement with David Cameron's


agreement with David Cameron's agreement with David Cameron's


tougher language on ternal tougher language on ternal


tougher language on ternal responsibility. Lindsay Johns


responsibility. Lindsay Johns responsibility. Lindsay Johns


Back in Peckham, volunteers as a mentor to school


children. If you want to look root cause I would say the culture


of instant gratification that a lot of young people have in their minds,


a culture of entitlement, everything is for free, a culture of rampant


materialism and gratification, these are the


that are pervading our young people's brains. For another youth


worker we met who got himself from Peckham to Oxford University there


are wider societal causes. think there's that much of a


between young people on the street and some of the mistakes that adults


make. There's a reflection. I think that's the discourse that has to


set around that, that a society sometimes is reflected by the young


people that are around it and some of those values and things, some of


that sickness we are talking about has come from above, not just from


below. So we as a society made them? I'm not saying we've made


them but we've given that allows these extreme decisions


to be made. So how do we that framework? I'm going to sound


very trite again and very altruistic but I sometimes think that one of


the words missing in all of this love and caring and compassion. I


think somewhere in all has been no area of compassion.


There are plenty of police and There are plenty of police and


There are plenty of police and community support officers on the


community support officers on the community support officers on the


There are plenty ground here in Peckham and all


across London at the moment. Getting those numbers here was seen as


crucial to putting an end or getting a lid on the disturbances, but going


forward police numbers are providing perhaps the most obvious and


immediate political battleground between the parties.


The Mayor of London for one thinks The Mayor of London for one thinks


the government should abandon its plans to cut police budgets. Labour


agrees. Supermarket Sweep! these last few frantic days and


frightening nights, the politics the law and order debate has changed


Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Now I am joined by Diane Abbott,


Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney which of


Labour MP for Hackney which of Labour MP for Hackney which of


course has suffered considerable course has suffered considerable


Now I am joined by Diane damage in the riots and from Leeds


by the chairman Party, Baroness Sayeeda Warsi,


is also minister in charge of social cohesion. Can you explain to us


David Cameron had in mind when he talked about these pockets of our


society that are sick? I think what the Prime Minister was referring to


was a culture of feeling within communities and within young


that they don't have to take personal responsibility, that it's


always somebody else's fault, that something else can be blamed


what they are having to do and what they are doing, and if you look at


whether that's parental responsibility, whether it's the way


in which young people have been looting and smiling at the camera


they are doing it, whether they are saying they have a right to take


these goods, whether the way in which they've torched people's


houses and taken away people's livelihoods, and indeed people have


lost their lives, that is what David Cameron means about a broken


society, a society that is sick. Diane Abbott, when we see these


pictures, when we see that young lad who had clearly been beaten up and


then someone pretends to help and then steals his wallet, that is


sick, isn't it? I don't know about pictures. I was on the streets of


Hackney on Monday night at the height of the riots and I said on


the streets, at the height of the riots, people need to take


children off the street. If that isn't preaching personal


responsibility, I don't know what is. I saw some sickening things in


Hackney, in my constituency, and I've seen sickening things happen


elsewhere. So you agree with Prime Minister? No, you haven't let


me finish, Gavin. I've seen sickening acts but to stigmatise


parts of the society as sick is quite wrong. Yes, sickening things


happened in Hackney but hundreds of people gathered the following


morning to help to clear up the borough. It is not helpful to


stigmatise either an age group or a part of society as sick, as some


sort of cancer. Baroness Warsi, it's not helpful and society is


composed as individuals, it points fingers at certain people which


isn't helpful? What the recent riots have shown is the worst


Britain and the best of Britain. I completely agree with Diane when she


says we've seen society come out, for example, in the clean-up, but if


you want to try and resolve a problem, to deal with


you have to say what it is you can start determining what


cure is. I think for too unfortunately people in leadership


positions have come out with excuses, have come out with reasons,


when what they should be saying is that enough is enough. If you break


the law, if you do not play by the rules, if you step over the law then


you will be punished. You will responsibility for the actions


you have taken. It's when we start saying that, when we start saying


that to whether it's young people, whether it's adults, whether it's to


parents, whether it's to teachers in schools and say that we have to


enforce school discipline, whether it's about saying to the way


which we deal with welfare, to say that actually it must pay for you to


work, not pay for you not to work; when we start making these very


clear statements as to what the problems are and how we can resolve


them, that's when we will start getting results. OK, Diane Abbott?


I'm not making excuses for anybody. I've said clearly throughout this


period that looters are thieves they are ludicrously stupid


as well because they are trashing their own communities. With the


greatest respect to Baroness Warsi, what worries me about the language


that David Cameron is using, just that it's wrong and


but the Tories are trying to draw attention from the fact that we've


now seen 12 months into Conservative government the


mainland rioting in country has seen for a century. What's needed is,


first of all, to get control back of the streets, and I'm not


the numbers of police we have London at the moment are


sustainable, and what we also need though is a long term plan for


social cohesion and stability. You are presiding over the


that we've seen for a long Baroness Warsi? And when I say -


when we say these riots are symptomatic of what has


happening for a long time in our society I hope Diane Abbott and her


government will take some responsibility for actually


presiding over creation of this culture of not taking


responsibility. You were in Diane Abbott, just let me get her to


answer that, Labour was in power when many of these children were


born and grew up. News Baroness Warsi, I was not a


government minister. The point I am making is that for all types of


reasons we are seeing frightening - frightening - social disorder. But


was there no political responsibility from the Labour


government - of which you were not a part, was there no


responsibility? All I can say is the last time we had riots of


nature was back in the 1980s when once again there was not a Labour


government. What I'm saying - you are saying - let me finish. We


have to regain control of the streets. Stigmatising communities


not going to do it. I completely agree with you that the


we have to do is take control of our streets to make sure that


law-abiding people and their property is protected but to try


connect this to a Conservative Government I think is ludicrous.


It's part of the narrative which sadly Labour are starting to develop


to try to find a reason, an excuse to connect it to cuts. I mean,


earlier this week I heard Lee Jasper, the adviser to the ex-Mayor


Ken Livingston saying that there are stores like Currys and Foot Locker


who do not spend their corporate budgets in this area and that makes


young people angry. You can come with crazy excuse after excuse.


There is no excuse. There is simple thing happening on our


streets: it is people going out creating criminal acts, looting,


burning down homes and businesses and we have to be prepared - you


know, Diane, until you stand up and start saying very clearly people


have to start taking personal responsibility, society expects


certain set of more or less and we have to start saying those clearly.


You made that point clearly. Diane Abbott? I said it all along. People


have to take their children off the streets. I saw children of 8 or 9


and stood up and - but Harriet Harman talked about


educational maintenance allowances and tuition fees which have not yet


gone up and the EMA has not yet been cut, so how could they possibly


anything to do with this problem? I have said clearly: looters are


thieves. The number one priority is to get control of the streets. But


it's nothing to do with cuts? The Labour Party is not making excuses.


The Labour Party is calling on this government - so it's nothing


with cuts? The cuts, any sense tells you that the cuts are


not going to make anything better soon, but I reject the narrative


that says that cuts has turned people into thieves in the here and


now. Baroness Warsi, we heard Johnson suggesting that cuts to


Metropolitan Police budget shouldn't go ahead. He thinks it has


to do with the cuts. If you - can go back to Diane's point then I will


come to your point. Diane, I completely agree with what


been doing when you have been going into Hackney, speaking to


people, you have been speaking to the victims, and I completely accept


that you have been has been wrong and this is


criminality, but at the same time you have also been saying: well,


this has something to do with the cuts, to do with EMA, the education


maintenancance allowance. No. And the minute you do that you take away


personal responsibility and reinforce that culture which creates


that feeling that people don't have to suffer the consequences of their


actions. Diane wants to respond to that. Yes, with the greatest


respect to Baroness Warsi you have been reading the central


press release and not listening to what I have been saying but why not


tell us about Boris Johnson he is saying about police cuts.


Indeed. Boris Johnson seems to think that cuts play a part in this, does


he not? I have actually been at the two Cobra meetings, and the


question that the Prime Minister has asked the Metropolitan Police on


both those two meetings is to say: do you have the resources to


the streets and to keep people and they have said yes. I am


confident that - should ahead? I am confident that despite


the changes in budgets of that they will have the necessary


police numbers to go out and keep us safe. So they should go ahead?


Let's not forget that during the Labour years when there was


unprecedented amount of money - your direct answer to that


is yes? Of course the answer is yes because during the time of Labour


when unprecedented amounts of money went into the Police Service we


found that only 11% of police forces were out patrolling the streets.


Again, with respect, you cannot there and tell my constituents


police cuts can go ahead. You cannot sustain the levels of policing that


we need to keep my constituents - UK, Diane, that's where you are


wrong - you can, Diane, you are wrong. Because when you have


statistics which show that policing time - Statistics. Only 14% of


time was spent on patrolling the streets and 22% was spent on filling


in forms and paperwork, that filling in paperwork doesn't


keep our streets safe. It's keeping police officers on the beat, on the


front line and that's what we've said we will protect. Do you


actually think that, when Minister talks about a sick society,


he is simply doing what Tony Blair did when he was Shadow


secretary and he said in 1993: believe a society that


such society is a sick other words, both parties simply


play politics, use the same phrases but actually things don't change. I


can't answer for Tony Blair I think David Cameron is doing


playing to the gallery. Of course, if you stigmatise people and abuse


people, people feel better. What saying on behalf of my constituents


who saw those riots go past front doors is we need sustainable


plans to keep people safe. You can put 16,000 policemen on the streets


today. What about next week or the week after? With these police


we will not have the policing we need. Diane Abbott,


Baroness Warsi, thank you both very much.


Now, an army recruit, graphic Now, an army recruit, graphic


Now, an army recruit, graphic designer and a primary school


designer and a primary school designer and a primary school


Now, an army recruit, assistant, these were just some of


the unlikely suspects who appeared in court today for their alleged


role in the riots. Meanwhile, as the legal system grinds into action, the


Prime Minister gave us his diagnosis of the problem


highlighting the problems caused gangs in England's inner cities.


There's no doubt that some of the disturbances were organised but what


part did gangs and gang culture really play in the events of the


past few days? Anna Adams has that part of the story.


Last night Manchester witnessed some Last night Manchester witnessed some


of the most violent scenes in its history. It was a very different


picture tonight. The city is not back to normal but a heavy police


presence finally brought the city back under control. Moss Side in


Manchester is an area not unaccustomed to rioting, but not


this time round. Firefighters here came under attack in last night's


riots but this time it was not Moss Side, it was from gangs


city centre. Ten of their fire engines were vandalised. The


firemen now run a boxing club for youngsters and say this is often the


only alternative they have to joining a gang here. You look


around and the gangs give love, say you are one of us, they feel loved


and wanted, and part of it. to do is say: listen, be a part of


my gang. This is my gang, this the gang that I run. It's a good


gang, it's a gang that's going to down to town tomorrow and try and


recover what has been damaged there. This firefighter has just


come back from Salford and said shops are still smouldering. It was


surreal, like a film set, seeing so many shops damaged and seeing


people's reactions. People aren't happy. These mindless thugs just


wrecking stuff for the sake of They have no real reason to do it


and a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon, then people coming


just to watch that are making even worse. The city was eerily


quiet tonight. Shops that weren't boarded up closed early and there


was still a smell of burning in the damp air. People are worried that


scars from last night will take longer than ever to heal. I just


think it's shocking because it's their city as well. It's not just


our city, it's their city as well and they are kind of doing this


their own community and I really understand it. Just


disgusting. They've ruined the and they've ruined the


for young people. So people are going to look at us and think: yeah,


they are all the same. So that's it. It's images like this that have


tarnished a city that has done well to shrug


well to shrug off the stigma of gang warfare and rioting for decades, all


of this undone by one night of looting. A lot of people think


I believe this to be true, a lot are seeing them as scum so they act


scum. Is it any wonder? Look around, what have they got? Nothing.


doesn't give them the right to and smash the place up. He is


talking to us. Have I Do you think it's fair someone has


been shot in London for nothing? What has that to do with wrecking


our shop? Have you got kids? I'm sorry but what has that to do


youth workers say here that the youth workers say here that the


ideology was nothing like they've seen before. Unlike previous


riots they say this had nothing do with politics but was influenced


far more by a growing gang culture and that's an image that certainly


here in Manchester they will to shake off. We've come to this


charity here in Manchester just round the corner from the Probation


Service, a building that was attacked in last night's riots. They


deal with more than 100 young ever single day just coming to this


building and they said at least 65% of them are involved with gangs.


It's just the mindset is making It's just the mindset is making


money, that's all it is. The one mindset that you have when you


are in a gang. No matter how you get it, you will get it. And how do you


break that cycle then? Is that you left London? Yeah, you break


that cycle by just thinking that you could be better in yourself really,


just thinking to yourself: well, this really life because your older


people are getting arrested, they've got life stretches, they have to be


in prison for their whole life because they wanted to make a couple


hundred grand. lot of money, but at what cost


really? Trevor Grant has worked with young offenders for more than 30


years and said some of the young people were looting as a form of


gang initiation. There's structure to gangs, an


there's a top and a bottom. If the word goes out, there's a meeting.


a particular point, with the they have, they can say: right, I


need X amount of people spot to carry out a certain


activity. The message from Greater Manchester Police could


been more stark. Make no mistake, they said today, we know who you


These are not gangs as we know them These are not gangs as we know them


and this is certainly not a turf war. Gangs across the country


now smaller, more fragmented and this time round it looks like they


are motivated only by bling and greed.


Diane Abbott is still with us. We Diane Abbott is still with us. We


are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh


Diane Abbott is still who is setting up a free school in


Lambeth and who has strongly criticised lack of discipline in


comprehensive schools and by MADIX, an ex-gang member who has served


some time in prison. Do you there is a strong gang connection


here with what we are seeing? Well, there might be but I think what's


more important is that we are a number of young people out


who have never been in trouble with the law, breaking the law and they


are being encouraged to do so by lack of authority. We've lost


authority in our families. These children are bringing home


that they've stolen and yet their parents are not taking them to the


police to say that their children have stolen things. We've lost


authority in the streets in terms the police and what the - the powers


that the police have. In teaching we have a saying that says: never smile


until Christmas. Unfortunately, since Saturday when Tottenham


happened, we've just been smiling. But is part of it, however,


of grab what you want culture and that doesn't really matter?


words there's no particular morality or sense of worry about the


consequences? We live in an intensely materialistic society


for a lot of these young people, gangs or no gangs, they are the


labels, they are the bling. your trainers. I think materialism


has always been an issue in western society but this is perhaps the most


intensely materialistic generation of youngsters we've had to deal


with. Why is that? MTV. They hit the same shops all the time, JB


Sports and mobile phone because they want the bling. It's


astonishing. Let me bring in MADIX. Had a do you think of that?


think it is about gangs or who are influenced by gang culture


but not really hardcore gang members in any way? I think it's families


subconsciously fed up, you know, so emotionally things will spill


the slightest excuse. Everyone is fed up, I was on the streets at


ground level and I saw working class people out there doing their thing.


Do you understand? People are fed up. People have got jobs and


struggling, people are losing cars and this and that because


everything is just too much. They are carrying on anyway but you have


a few people that will start it and that will just bring up mass


hysteria, it just starts up everything. But come on, being fed


up and emotional doesn't lead you to try and brick in a bookies.


watched with my own eyes people trying to brick in a Ladbrokes


window in broad daylight. What they going to do, get in there and


place free bets? A lot of this greed and mindless violence and


need to call it what it is. And interestingly Waterstones and


local libraries have not been looted. Yes, they are so fed up


they don't want to read a book. One issue we've tiptoed around is


question of race. Is it that there are some things about a black


culture which are very attractive not just to black youths but


white and Asian youths who follow in some ways and is there a bad side


to that which causes these problems? I think so, and I said MTV earlier.


I think unfortunately, when you survey them, young people will say


they spend six, seven hours sat in front of MTV base. The kind of


culture that is glorified there is men with their cars and their babes


and bling, and so on, and then you do find lots of young people - not


just black young people but well and Asian young people, you


find them shaving their heads and trying to look black in order to


more cool. Right. And that's because of this horrible culture


that is coming from American - you know, the music scene. Did


that kind of thing attractive? I didn't find - what I found


attractive when I was young was the A Team, commando, Rambo, all these


heroes fighting bad people. That desensitised me to guns, to


violence, psychologically it desensitises you. When we


something happening, traumatise us. We shouldn't


to walk past or capitalise on you understand what I'm saying? We


are supposed to be traumatised but the majority of us are not


traumatised. These things happen and it's nothing much for them to


in, do you understand? I'm trying figure out though why it is that the


politicians, David Cameron today and also I think Ed Miliband to


extent suggested that behind this and you seem to be


suggesting it's far more complicated than that. Do you think there are


gangs involved in the of this, or not really? If you


to the police, and I have been talking to my police every day,


often more than once a day, they will tell you is, if this was


just "a gang" organising this looting, actually it would be much


easier to disrupt and much easier to find out what's doing. The


with it is that it is so chaotic and anarchic. When you pick up people,


some of them are members of gangs but basically this is a


thing organised by text messages and BlackBerry Messenger. Let me come to


black culture. First of all, not all of these looters are black, not even


in Brixton. If you are in Manchester, most of the looters are


white. But there are issues with some of our young black people,


particularly some of our young black men but I won't have black culture


stigmatised. My parents are the generation that came in the 50s,


60s, were church-goers, loved Queen - more than you love the


they loved the Queen - know how much I love the Queen or


otherwise! Furthermore, they were grateful to be able to come here and


work so there's nothing intrinsic about West Indian culture


leads to criminality but I live in Hackney I know there are


about some of our young black men but let's not stigmatise the black


culture as a whole. But to take MADIX's point about young people who


become desensitised to violence - Not just to violence, they are


desensitised to sex. They are having sex earlier, they have children


who ends up with no father nine times out of ten the child


up with no father. It is from there. Young people have had sex early,


it's easy to go on about black culture but again going to my


father, he became sheet metal worker, his sense of


pride was all tied up in that blue collar job. There is no role for


working class men, black or who don't have qualifications. It's


partly the change in the economy. But education is just so


Yes. If the schools are not able - we've got 17% of our 15-year-olds


who are functionally illiterate. The problem is that if our school


is not performing at the level needs to perform, we are churning


out children who literally cannot read and write, they cannot


appreciate the beauty of a building, they cannot want to go to a film


appreciate the drama in it. And so they are bored. And they are not


sensible enough not to go looting broad daylight. That's the other


thing. When you were involved in this, was there any organisation or


part of the state, the police or teachers or anything that you


particularly respected or did not respect any of them? In other


words, if a teacher came to you said you are doing wrong,


to do it this way, what have said? I remember at the


school days, very boring. Like, teachers, most of them was


temporaries, a lot of strikes at the time, school was free time. People


stopped going to school there was nothing to do there. Until


it got better, teachers came in, then it got better, but other than


that - But that's why education is so important and when Diane


about her father and those times, West Indian people, in so many ways


we are losing that. Our young are growing up without a sense of


determination to work hard and make their lives better. Or discipline.


Exactly. Do you get those from family? If you haven't


that functions, you are not going to have it. My father every week came


home with a wage packet, gave my her shopping money, us children our


pocket money and a bar of chocolate. A lot of families I see are on


estates where they just don't go back and work. Before you turn back


to our reformed gangster friend, for every gangster or looter there are


hundreds of black children trying and I'm really unhappy when


people assume that black looters the face of our young black people


because it's not. No, and in most black people are horrified by


what's going on and what's unfortunate is that a small


have the rest of us kind of just we are horrified. Just a


thought. You suggested earlier that what we are going to see is


generation doing this because - I mean, is that the way you see it?


Yes, because it has been happening for generations, and the next


generation coming up is going to be worse because it's going to be a


different time. People say the BlackBerry helped people


this crime. In 1981 how organise it? It wasn't even mobile


phones. Whatever form of communication is about that's


they are going to use and it gets around like that. It's not a thing


that's arranged, sat down, let's have a meeting. It's not like that.


It's on the spot, most people know who is running, where they are


going, it's mass hysteria, everyone is just getting into it. Do you


understand? It's nothing planned, like: we are going to do


tomorrow or Saturday. It's not something like that. I think


there's more hope like are people like you and your friends


but also peekpeople in Hackney - people in Hackney in terrible


conditions who nonetheless are contributing to society. We


leave it there, thank you. David Cameron also said


riots had shown the worst in us and some of the best in us. Communities


really have come together to clean up, to protect themselves and to


help each other. We have been to two very different communities to find


To cries of "England!", scores of To cries of "England!", scores of


To cries of "England!", scores of self-appointed defenders process


self-appointed defenders process self-appointed defenders process


through a north London suburb last through a north London suburb last


To cries of night and these are the guardians


Eltham in London. These are people - looters, if you going to come round


here, this is what you get. SHOUTING.


Also courtesy of YouTube, some townspeople on the move in Enfield,


We are the Enfield army. We are here We are the Enfield army. We are here


for one reason, to stick up for our families. My girlfriend


are sitting at home. I'm here to protect them. We are here to help


the police. We do believe, don't we lads, that there ain't enough of


them. There's too much going too many different areas. They


Enfield was the scene of Enfield was the scene of


Enfield was the scene of disturbances on Monday. A huge


disturbances on Monday. A huge disturbances on Monday. A huge


Enfield was the scene warehouse belonging to a music


company was burnt to the ground. To the casual onlooker Enfield is a


peaceable market town on the fringes of London, a good place to live, and


so it is most of the time, but there are a few clues here


the recent troubling events in town. Extra police patrols, discreet


beefed up security in some including pubs, and there has even


been a prayer vigil here evening.


This man wasn't one of the so-called Enfield Army but he says he did


some people together in case of an attack on a petrol station next to


his estate. REPORTER: Why not just leave it to the police? That's


job. You can't always rely on the police and when the police arrive,


if they arrive at all, all they are going to do is exacerbate


problem. You know what I they are going to do is criminalise


the youth, all they are going to do is perpetuate what's going on. As I


said before, these people are not very high up on the ladder and would


benefit much more from a slap round the ear and being sent home to their


parents than they would from a criminal record. In the event


never had to put his plans into effect but, if he had, would he have


broken the law? How far of the public go to


themselves and hair communities? - their communities? If


knowledge of a criminal offence can potentially arrest someone. If


you have merely suspicion and it's not a reasonable suspicion, no, you


cannot. In terms of having a weapon, if you face imminent threat you can


arm yourself but you cannot bring a weapon with you unless there is


imminent threat that you genuinely believe is out there. Members


the Sikh community in West London were sending out a pretty clear


signal last night that they were prepared to defend their temple by


force if it came to it. As absolute last resort, you have


swords, the devices and symbols your faith? We do, and I think


sword sometimes can become emotive. What we say is it is an article of


faith for us. We would use that as last resort and thankfully it has


never come to that and we hope and pray it does not come


that so I think that the sight of our community being together and


strong and being here will put any persons who want to feel that they


want to come and disrespect our place of worship, will be enough to


put them off, and I think that to an extent that has been shown


is working. What we are saying, are very peaceful and peace-loving


and we want to come together as a community, but we are prepared to


make sure that our place of worship is respected. The Sikhs have been


working closely with the police. But the Met say others who have been


tempted to take the law into their own hands have been diverting police


resources away from pursuing looters.


In an increasingly crowded field of In an increasingly crowded field of


amateurs offering their services in the area of public order,


English Defence League were out in southeast London last night.


these are local people, these are patriots who have come out to


their area. So the EDL has come down, about 50 of us to goad


down, about 50 of us to down, about 50 of us to guide them


and make sure it isn't out of order. This is Ealing and a man here


remains seriously ill in hospital. In the past hour, Scotland Yard has


released CCTV images of a man it describes as a strong suspect in


assault. Earlier, a retired GP here told us at that he and his


had been prepared to home. We got shutters on the front


door, we've got good locks and everything. We will shut everything


in and they said: we already armed ourselves, we've taken Will's golf


clubs. I said I think if one actually is pretty solid and says:


look, we are three very strong guys and we are not prepared to have you


invade our privacy, just get out of here. We recognise our society is


so broken. After an extraordinary few days in London, Enfield


residents offer their prayers for calm on the streets. Action over


and abusive that doesn't necessarily have - action over and above that


doesn't necessarily have the Met's blessing.


I am joined by Constable Paul I am joined by Constable Paul


Deller and by Patrick Hayes who joined a group defending


this week. Why did you do it? I was reporting on the situation but


I very much like the people on that kind of anti-riot group. I was faced


with a situation on Monday where was too scared to leave my house,


was watching the situation on telly and really I was faced with a


situation where for now four there has been a complete failure of


the police to take any control the situation. You've had what are


effectively just anihilistic childish thugs setting light to


property, putting peoples lives in very serious danger and people feel


they can't trust the police anymore. The police are now telling


groups such as in Enfield they now need to go home and put faith in the


police but where were the police when people really needed them?


Everybody knows the stress police officers have been under in


the past few days but that is a fair point, is it not? If the police


can't be there or aren't there then people will do it for themselves?


Into it is a fair point and obviously anybody can defend their


own property from attack if they need to but we would be res sent for


these groups to take it further start patrolling the streets as a


vigilante group or homemade militia to confront groups of rioters


because that would lead to a breakdown in law and order


completely. Do you see that point? What I saw


last night was members of the local community, many were white working


class, but we had a range of people from different ethnicities who


basically felt they didn't be cooped up inside their homes


anymore and wanted to go out and do something. But you are describing


it from the inside. If you are walking on the streets


on the outside of that group and you see 20, 30, 40 blokes perhaps armed


with cricket bats or something and you are not part of that


would look like you are threatening, even if the motives are not?


Certainly in Enfield there were no weapons last night on display. The


sense I got was that the community were broadly supportive,


blowing horns and coming out of shops and fire stations and garages.


What about the accusations that people from far right groups are


capitalising on this? One of things that - I take things on face


value, so I went there yesterday really speak to people and


because I felt a sense of anger and frustration that things weren't


getting done. One of the things that angered me was the knee-jerk


reaction that if you have 100 white working class people out on the


streets then necessarily they are going to be influenced by the far


right or they are going to become thugs. So they weren't there? There


may have been a couple of individuals but I didn't get the


sense - there were no racist chants there and people were genuine, they


were talking about football, about normal everyday things. There is


this attitude from the chattering classes in particular that


group of working class, white working class people now who get


together are just going to be right wing authoritarian thugs. There


seems to be no alternative. you have the right to


own property but if the best do that is to defend your community


and we are all in favour of communities apparently, what's


with that? It's how far you the defence of your community within


the law. What we don't want to see is a group of white middle class


people as has been to the streets. Is that different to


any other gang? We've just had a discussion about gang culture and


that's what we don't want to see. We would like to see these numbers


police officers on the streets of London every night but we can't


sustain that. Do you think it adds to your workload when people turn


out like this, is that saying? It can do yes because


members of the public don't whether it's a good gang or a bad


gang. We would like police to deal with all of the calls we


get. Resources will be cut. We heard tonight the debate about that.


are going to lose numbers. will be less police officers out


there and we don't want vigilante groups to replace us. Sorry, we are


going to have to leave it there. One of the big puzzles is exactly


what drove the what drove the looters: greed,


thuggery, complete lack of any moral sense? Others see different lessons


from social breakdown, poverty, including poverty of expectations


and moral chaos behind the scenes of the last few days.


# This morning I woke up in a curfew # That's why we are gonna be


# That's why we are gonna be # That's why we are gonna be


# This morning I # burnin' and a lootin' tonight #


MUSIC: "Burnin' And Lootin'" by Bob Marley.


Marley. Marley.


MUSIC: "Burnin' And To talk about this I'm joined by


former speech writer to Cameron who wrote the so-called


hug-a-hoodie speech and also Guardian columnist Zoe Williams.


You mentioned today the looters were brought up in erratic and bad


discipline. Bad families, is the core of your argument?


they are themselves the product after dysfunctional society and


Prime Minister said position of our community are sick and that's a fair


and accurate criticism. It's harsh but we need to speak harshly. There


is a lack of the moral language which sustains a society -


goes through generations? Yes, and the heart of the problem is to


with the upbringing of children I wouldn't blame parents


for that. They themselves occupy culture and community and all of


are ultimately responsible for the way our nation's children behave.


Zoe you wrote also today but were talking about among other


shopping riots and a glorified mugging. Did you see this as the


have-notes just grabbing something? There is the authoritarian


which says it's a sense of entitlement, these people


sense of responsibility, they think only of what you should do for


and at the other end of the you have the argument that they are


the product of a brutalised poverty in which they see all this


they will never afford it, there is endemic unemployment, they have


their noses rubbed in it and can see no kind of consequence. You do


many people, especially in the criminological community who occupy


the bang centre who say there might be a problem in the criminal justice


system, it might be too lenient but the fact is how could you have a


sense of a lot to lose if you have anything to lose? Is part of it


as some say dependency other words that you expect - and


also entitlement culture, you are owed something and you


take it if you can't get it? Yes, and the worst of that is there is no


gratitude. a reliance on the state or sense of


belonging, it breeds the opposite, resentment against the society which


thinks you are worth 100 fortnight. So yes, there is


genuine problem with the fact that people are better off out of


They don't want to get into work, don't even want to start climbing


the ladder out to work because they lose their housing. Can I raise the


issue of unemployment here because it really bothers me. Anybody


right says: it should pay to work. Of course, but when unemployment is


the highest since records began in 1992 I don't think you can


legitimately say these people to be shown the benefits of a job.


Nevertheless, we are drawing in immigrants to do the jobs that we


won't do. I totally understand and agree with the problem - I don't


think that's the same You are not saying jobs these 17 or


18-year-olds can get are being taken by Polish people and even if it were


were the case, that would be to do with wage settlements not being high


enough. There is a genuine with a lack of belief that work is a


root for you. I agree that's part to do with lack of supply of


jobs young people are able or to do but there is also a cultural


input into their childhood tells them there is no point in


trying to work because this isn't something that will do them well -


I think that's an extreme reading though. When you say there aren't


jobs for you how are you to say don't believe in having a job if the


job isn't there for you to reject? There needs a culture of work


that requires jobs to be there, I totally understand, however there


a supply and demand side of this equation and we are not supplying


the economy with people who are prepared and want to work. Can I


inject a wider note here which is, you talked about this kind of


culture where you talked about bling culture earlier in


this evening, but if you watch the news at any time in the past two


three years and you look at the financial news today, at bankers'


salaries and so on, you might conclude that our whole society is


run on the greed principle? I that is right. What I do now is run


a charity working with prisoners and ex-offenders and we have a dinner


we do it every Wednesday night - every week we have this discussion


and every week the point is made: why should we do the right


when there is this culture of greed and consumption at the top?


agree with it. I think the bankers work hard and deserve to be well


paid. Whether they are paid the right amount, I don't know, but -


What about being held to account a huge financial disaster though?


The extent to which the bankers are personally responsible is perhaps


debate for another week than this one. He might as well, we've talked


about everything else. Quite, but there is this sense that our society


is too radically split and there is an unprivilegable gulf and that the


MPs have their hands in the till, the bankers are ripping us


that is a terrible thing culturally. I don't think the gulf is


unbridgeable. There is good evidence to show that when society is unequal


as it is at the moment and people at the top are earning 248 times what


people at the bottom are earning, that has a number of negative


consequences, one of which is family breakdown, another is social unrest.


These are not unbridgeable issues. All you have to do is address the


financial equality. You can't just let it ride. OK, my priority


not be financial equality or inequality, it would be improving


the local social relationships young people grow up in. I agree


there's a macroeconomics aspect to that and a story about equality


which we could address but most directly it's the environment. But


all the things which you would interrupt family bonding and empathy


such as absent parents, drug addiction, poverty, all of these


spring from social inequality. think they also spring from a large


centralised state which produces these mass entitlements


standardisations and totally disempowers people from communities


they belong to. That isn't evidenced. You can believe that but


I think it would be better approach the things that you have


evidence to approach. Thank both very much.


One other huge story this week which One other huge story this week which


has been swamped by our domestic difficulties is the market meltdown


on the world economy. With the latest from New York I'm joined by


our business correspondent Michelle Fleury. What has been happening


there? Well, US stocks followed Europe's lead and they started off


lower. We saw wild swings in the final hour of trading on the


floor of the New York Stock Exchange with the Dow Jones losing more than


100 points in the final few minutes to close down over 500 points lower.


Part of what's driving this as far as we can tell is fears of another


global banking crisis. Now, people obviously last week are at the


beginning - or at the beginning of this week were worried about


America's credit rating. focus has shifted to France and


whether or not that country's credit rating will be downgraded. The major


ratings agency has ratings agency has don't foresee


that, certainly not at the moment, but that didn't reassure


Is the outlook unrelieved gloom? was on the floor of


Stock Exchange a bit earlier talking to traders and a lot of them are


scratching their heads, saying: look, there is this huge degree


fear at the moment. Yes, the risks are real for sure, of a global


recession, or at least sort of of potential recession here


United States, but nonetheless what's driving the markets right now


is just this desire not to hold anything they perceive to be risky.


They Don want to hold onto anything for too long and that's why you are


seeing these very much.


Tomorrow morning's front page. Daily Mail has the grieving father's


voice of sanity. Extraordinary dignity of Tariq Jahan talking about


the death of his son which described in the Mail as a race


murder of three young Asians which "sends riot city to boiling point".


The Telegraph has our sick society. Looters in court include a grammar


assistant. Riots,


assistant. Riots, Cameron


assistant. Riots, Cameron under


assistant. Riots, Cameron under attack,


Johnson calls for a U-turn in police numbers.


Pressure to scrap police cuts as Pressure to scrap police cuts as


Pressure to scrap police cuts as Birmingham mourns its dead is


Birmingham mourns its dead is Birmingham mourns its dead is


Pressure to scrap theguardian's front page and the


pictures of the three young killed.


The FT has focus on the crisis turns to France, and a rather


gloomy looking of England, Mervyn King,


front page. That's all from Newsnight tonight. We will be back


with more tomorrow. Keep safe. Goodnight.


Hello. Some heavy rain through the Hello. Some heavy rain through the


night across parts of the country. The biggest concern will be in


Scotland over the next few days. Could see surface flooding, even


river flooding across central eastern areas.


Heavy rain will work southwards and Heavy rain will work southwards and


Heavy rain will work southwards and eastwards. Still persistent rain in


eastwards. Still persistent rain in eastwards. Still persistent rain in


Heavy rain will southern Scotland and the northeast


but lighter than it will have through the morning. Some


showers elsewhere. A few brighter breaks into the afternoon on that


southwest wind and temperatures into the low 20s.


For the southwest and Wales, we will For the southwest and Wales, we will


see wetter conditions in morning. Afternoon, some lighter,


patch I did not showers. flow across the southern half of the


UK, some mist and hill fog possible. Northern Ireland, into the


afternoon, brighter in the south, wetter in the north. The northern


half of Scotland, the keen wind will be easing so it should be


Across the north, a difference in Across the north, a difference in


temperatures but rain should be lighter and patchier. Further south


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