10/08/2011 Newsnight


10/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Tonight parts of our society are Tonight parts of our society are

:00:09.:00:11.

sick, according to the Prime sick, according to the Prime

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Minister. It comes after three men were left dead this morning after

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night of rioting and unrest. Anything I ever wanted done,

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always ask Haroon to sort it out me, not my eldest or my daughter,

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but my youngest. And they killed him. The Prime Minister says

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is something fundamentally wrong with the country. There are pockets

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of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick. So

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drives the looters? Greed? Hopelessness? No moral sense? Look

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around here, what have they got? They got nothing. That doesn't give

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them a right to smash the place up. They was talk to go us. Have I

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condoned it? Do you think it's that someone is shot in

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nothing? We will be Sayeeda Warsi and Labour's Diane

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Abbott if they agree with David Cameron's diagnosis of a

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society and what medicine they prescribe. Residents pull together

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to defend and protect their neighbourhoods, but is there

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danger of vigilantism? We ain't having all these people coming up

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here and ruining our place, right, burning our town down, right? We are

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going to make a stand. And markets dive and bank shares plunge as fears

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grow about France's debt. started running hard today to

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re-establish law and order the initiative on the riots in

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English cities. Announcing a fightback, he declared that in areas

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of our city, they are in some way sick. This comes amid moves to

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withdraw social housing from convicted rioters and the Mayor

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called for planned police cuts to be reconsidered. Disturbances continued

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last night in many areas. said rioters brought shame on the

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streets of Manchester, with shops smashed and goods taken and

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they described serious violence in Liverpool. A police station was fire

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bombed in Nottingham and there was unrest in Leicester and Gloucester.

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Tonight in the capital it is reported to be largely quiet but

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England's second largest city perhaps more tense than most. The

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death of three young Muslims in Birmingham is being treated

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murder by the police. That's we begin, in a city with a history

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of ethnic violence and which the edge tonight. Liz MacKean spent

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In Birmingham tonight residents are In Birmingham tonight residents are

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being asked to trust the police to keep the streets safe. But some are

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taking precautions anyway. As in London, there has been a surge of

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officers on patrol, to protect property from looters and to ensure

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there's no retaliation after the murders of three Asian men.

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I think they are dead. They are I think they are dead. They are

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dead. These pictures were taken at 1.00am this morning just after a car

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had been driven at speed towards a group of men, hitting three of them.

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I heard the thud, ran round and seen three people on the ground.

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Tariq Jahan heard the collision ran to help, not realising that one

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of those fatally injured was his son, 21-year-old Haroon. I heard

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the thud, ran round and I seen three people on the ground. My instinct

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was to help the three people. didn't know who they were,

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been injured. I helped the first man and somebody from behind told me

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that my son was lying behind me so I started CPR on my own son. My

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was covered in blad, my covered in blood. Why? Two brothers,

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Shahzad Ali and Abdul Musavir, 30 and 31, also died. They had been

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among a group of 80 local men walking along the streets to guard

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property, including the mosque today the men were remembered in

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prayers. People who had known them struggled to come to terms

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their deaths. They were innocent young lads who were killed, murdered

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by a gang of thugs, call them what you want. There was no reason for

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it. We didn't know them, they didn't know us. Just because we are

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standing outside our business they didn't like it. Until last

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night, this area around Dudley Road had largely

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that has afflicted other the city. At the moment there's more

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disbelief than anger at what has happened here, but in either case

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people are demanding answers. For some that we've spoken to, it's

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case of criminality, nothing more than that. Others believe

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fact it points to underlying tensions between the different

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In the past, those tensions have led In the past, those tensions have led

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to violence between Asians and blacks. People here say they get

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along easily enough, but the clashes are not forgotten. As we are growing

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up, when you see riots at this age, and then when you grow up you see it

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again, you have to take part, you have to keep them away. We feel the

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police can't defend us. We are taking defensive measures basically

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just to avert trouble from us. It's really bad round here because people

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don't trust the black Some are good but some are not good

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and they are really attacking us and some are really scared.

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stresses were acknowledged by police today who confirmed that a

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32-year-old black man has arrested on suspicion of murder. I

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would appeal to people, at this time, to be calm. If we are

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calm I'm absolutely confident that the people of the West Midlands can

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get through this for us strange and difficult phase and that we can

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rebuild trust between communities and move on with a sense of purpose.

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But it seemed to be reassurance that people want most. They gathered

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community centre to demand greater protection from both police and

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politicians. Those that couldn't fit in waited outside. News of the

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meeting was broadcast by a local community TV station, beamed around

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the world. Most of Sangat TV's programmes are in Punjabi, so reach

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not just Sikhs but Muslims and Hindus. Since the rioting spread in

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the West Midlands on Monday, the TV station has been streaming live

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footage. They believe it has helped to keep those different communities

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informed and more stable. What we try to do actually, to save

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community there, to save their values, their shops and everything

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just by informing them and saving the community - this is what it

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stands for, the whole congregation is about the community and how to

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protect each other. Haroon Jahan's father said there should be no

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revenge as he paid tribute to a good and gifted son. I don't

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nobody. I'm a Muslim and I believe in divine fate and destiny

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was his destiny and his fate and he has gone. May Allah forgive him

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and bless him. That's all I have to say, no more, thank you very much.

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So far tonight his appeal for restraint is being heard. Police,

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who have made more than 300 since the trouble began, say they

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will continue their high visibility presence as an uneasy calm settles

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That was Liz MacKean reporting from That was Liz MacKean reporting from

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That was Liz MacKean reporting from Birmingham, so what did David

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Birmingham, so what did David Birmingham, so what did David

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That was Liz MacKean Cameron mean by drawing attention to

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pockets of our society which he claimed are "sick"? David

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has been trying to find out what the sickness might be and what cures

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be on offer. Peckham residents are using Post-it

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notes to send messages, think about the riots, what they

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think about living in Peckham and what they think have caused it all.

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Messages too are here from businesses, trying to keep going.

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One thing it's not is "business as One thing it's not is "business as

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usual" for the politicians. For a start, their summer holidays have

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all been interrupted as Parliament re-assembles tomorrow. Part of their

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job now is to define why all riots happened. What were the causes

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and crucially how can they stop them happening again?

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The Prime Minister's message today The Prime Minister's message today

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was: the fightback has begun. police can, if they think they need

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them, use water cannon and plastic bullets, and while he was at it Mr

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Cameron fired off his own stinging rebuke. Good morning. There are

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pockets of our society that just broken, but frankly sick. When

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we see children as young as 13 looting and laughing, when we see

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the disgusting sight of an young man with people pretending to

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help him while they are robbing him, it is clear there are things that

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are badly wrong in our society. For me, the root cause of this mindless

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selfishness is the same thing that I've spoken about for years. It is a

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complete lack of responsibility parts of our society, people allowed

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to feel that the world owes them something, that their rights

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outweigh their responsibilities and that their actions do not

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consequences. Well, they do have consequences.

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This was a very different sounding This was a very different sounding

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David Cameron to the one who, in opposition, invited us to understand

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the hoodie wearer a bit more. So when you see a child walking down a

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street, hoodie up, head down, moody, swaggering, dominating the pavement,

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think what has brought that child that moment. That is what

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Labour has so far struggled to post Labour has so far struggled to post

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a distinctive message of their own. On last night's Newsnight the deputy

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leader Harriet Harman did try to develop one linking the riots with

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government cuts. There is a sense that young people feel they

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being listened to. That is not justify violence, but I think that

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when you've got the trebling tuition fees, they should think

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again about that. When you've got the EMA being taken away, jobs being

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cut and youth unemployment and they are shutting the Jobcentre

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in Camberwell, well you should think again about that because this is

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going to cost money. This does not help. All of this does not

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reduce the deficit. A U gov poll The Sun newspaper today

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this is not a popular explanation. When asked, 42% blamed the riots

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criminal behaviour. .

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David Cameron commissioned Field to look at policy and life

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chances and in his report he identified parenting as the key

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factor. I don't sense the Prime Minister has taken any of that on

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board. I think the government regards this as sort of a fluffy

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topic maybe to comment on occasionally. They don't see it as

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central to the maintenance of a free society which has boundaries to that

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Back in Peckham, there was some Back in Peckham, there was some

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Back in Peckham, there was some agreement with David Cameron's

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agreement with David Cameron's agreement with David Cameron's

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tougher language on ternal tougher language on ternal

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tougher language on ternal responsibility. Lindsay Johns

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responsibility. Lindsay Johns responsibility. Lindsay Johns

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Back in Peckham, volunteers as a mentor to school

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children. If you want to look root cause I would say the culture

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of instant gratification that a lot of young people have in their minds,

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a culture of entitlement, everything is for free, a culture of rampant

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materialism and gratification, these are the

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that are pervading our young people's brains. For another youth

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worker we met who got himself from Peckham to Oxford University there

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are wider societal causes. think there's that much of a

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between young people on the street and some of the mistakes that adults

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make. There's a reflection. I think that's the discourse that has to

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set around that, that a society sometimes is reflected by the young

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people that are around it and some of those values and things, some of

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that sickness we are talking about has come from above, not just from

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below. So we as a society made them? I'm not saying we've made

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them but we've given that allows these extreme decisions

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to be made. So how do we that framework? I'm going to sound

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very trite again and very altruistic but I sometimes think that one of

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the words missing in all of this love and caring and compassion. I

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think somewhere in all has been no area of compassion.

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There are plenty of police and There are plenty of police and

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There are plenty of police and community support officers on the

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community support officers on the community support officers on the

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There are plenty ground here in Peckham and all

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across London at the moment. Getting those numbers here was seen as

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crucial to putting an end or getting a lid on the disturbances, but going

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forward police numbers are providing perhaps the most obvious and

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immediate political battleground between the parties.

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The Mayor of London for one thinks The Mayor of London for one thinks

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the government should abandon its plans to cut police budgets. Labour

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agrees. Supermarket Sweep! these last few frantic days and

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frightening nights, the politics the law and order debate has changed

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Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Now I am joined by Diane Abbott,

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Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney which of

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Labour MP for Hackney which of Labour MP for Hackney which of

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course has suffered considerable course has suffered considerable

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Now I am joined by Diane damage in the riots and from Leeds

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by the chairman Party, Baroness Sayeeda Warsi,

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is also minister in charge of social cohesion. Can you explain to us

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David Cameron had in mind when he talked about these pockets of our

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society that are sick? I think what the Prime Minister was referring to

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was a culture of feeling within communities and within young

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that they don't have to take personal responsibility, that it's

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always somebody else's fault, that something else can be blamed

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what they are having to do and what they are doing, and if you look at

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whether that's parental responsibility, whether it's the way

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in which young people have been looting and smiling at the camera

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they are doing it, whether they are saying they have a right to take

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these goods, whether the way in which they've torched people's

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houses and taken away people's livelihoods, and indeed people have

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lost their lives, that is what David Cameron means about a broken

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society, a society that is sick. Diane Abbott, when we see these

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pictures, when we see that young lad who had clearly been beaten up and

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then someone pretends to help and then steals his wallet, that is

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sick, isn't it? I don't know about pictures. I was on the streets of

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Hackney on Monday night at the height of the riots and I said on

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the streets, at the height of the riots, people need to take

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children off the street. If that isn't preaching personal

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responsibility, I don't know what is. I saw some sickening things in

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Hackney, in my constituency, and I've seen sickening things happen

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elsewhere. So you agree with Prime Minister? No, you haven't let

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me finish, Gavin. I've seen sickening acts but to stigmatise

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parts of the society as sick is quite wrong. Yes, sickening things

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happened in Hackney but hundreds of people gathered the following

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morning to help to clear up the borough. It is not helpful to

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stigmatise either an age group or a part of society as sick, as some

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sort of cancer. Baroness Warsi, it's not helpful and society is

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composed as individuals, it points fingers at certain people which

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isn't helpful? What the recent riots have shown is the worst

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Britain and the best of Britain. I completely agree with Diane when she

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says we've seen society come out, for example, in the clean-up, but if

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you want to try and resolve a problem, to deal with

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you have to say what it is you can start determining what

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cure is. I think for too unfortunately people in leadership

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positions have come out with excuses, have come out with reasons,

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when what they should be saying is that enough is enough. If you break

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the law, if you do not play by the rules, if you step over the law then

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you will be punished. You will responsibility for the actions

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you have taken. It's when we start saying that, when we start saying

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that to whether it's young people, whether it's adults, whether it's to

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parents, whether it's to teachers in schools and say that we have to

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enforce school discipline, whether it's about saying to the way

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which we deal with welfare, to say that actually it must pay for you to

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work, not pay for you not to work; when we start making these very

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clear statements as to what the problems are and how we can resolve

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them, that's when we will start getting results. OK, Diane Abbott?

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I'm not making excuses for anybody. I've said clearly throughout this

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period that looters are thieves they are ludicrously stupid

:16:54.:16:58.

as well because they are trashing their own communities. With the

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greatest respect to Baroness Warsi, what worries me about the language

:17:02.:17:05.

that David Cameron is using, just that it's wrong and

:17:05.:17:09.

but the Tories are trying to draw attention from the fact that we've

:17:09.:17:12.

now seen 12 months into Conservative government the

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mainland rioting in country has seen for a century. What's needed is,

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first of all, to get control back of the streets, and I'm not

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the numbers of police we have London at the moment are

:17:25.:17:29.

sustainable, and what we also need though is a long term plan for

:17:29.:17:33.

social cohesion and stability. You are presiding over the

:17:33.:17:37.

that we've seen for a long Baroness Warsi? And when I say -

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when we say these riots are symptomatic of what has

:17:40.:17:43.

happening for a long time in our society I hope Diane Abbott and her

:17:43.:17:45.

government will take some responsibility for actually

:17:45.:17:48.

presiding over creation of this culture of not taking

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responsibility. You were in Diane Abbott, just let me get her to

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answer that, Labour was in power when many of these children were

:17:57.:18:01.

born and grew up. News Baroness Warsi, I was not a

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government minister. The point I am making is that for all types of

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reasons we are seeing frightening - frightening - social disorder. But

:18:11.:18:14.

was there no political responsibility from the Labour

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government - of which you were not a part, was there no

:18:17.:18:22.

responsibility? All I can say is the last time we had riots of

:18:22.:18:27.

nature was back in the 1980s when once again there was not a Labour

:18:27.:18:31.

government. What I'm saying - you are saying - let me finish. We

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have to regain control of the streets. Stigmatising communities

:18:38.:18:41.

not going to do it. I completely agree with you that the

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we have to do is take control of our streets to make sure that

:18:46.:18:49.

law-abiding people and their property is protected but to try

:18:49.:18:52.

connect this to a Conservative Government I think is ludicrous.

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It's part of the narrative which sadly Labour are starting to develop

:18:56.:18:59.

to try to find a reason, an excuse to connect it to cuts. I mean,

:18:59.:19:06.

earlier this week I heard Lee Jasper, the adviser to the ex-Mayor

:19:06.:19:11.

Ken Livingston saying that there are stores like Currys and Foot Locker

:19:11.:19:15.

who do not spend their corporate budgets in this area and that makes

:19:15.:19:19.

young people angry. You can come with crazy excuse after excuse.

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There is no excuse. There is simple thing happening on our

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streets: it is people going out creating criminal acts, looting,

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burning down homes and businesses and we have to be prepared - you

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know, Diane, until you stand up and start saying very clearly people

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have to start taking personal responsibility, society expects

:19:42.:19:46.

certain set of more or less and we have to start saying those clearly.

:19:46.:19:51.

You made that point clearly. Diane Abbott? I said it all along. People

:19:51.:19:56.

have to take their children off the streets. I saw children of 8 or 9

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and stood up and - but Harriet Harman talked about

:20:01.:20:04.

educational maintenance allowances and tuition fees which have not yet

:20:05.:20:10.

gone up and the EMA has not yet been cut, so how could they possibly

:20:10.:20:15.

anything to do with this problem? I have said clearly: looters are

:20:15.:20:21.

thieves. The number one priority is to get control of the streets. But

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it's nothing to do with cuts? The Labour Party is not making excuses.

:20:26.:20:30.

The Labour Party is calling on this government - so it's nothing

:20:30.:20:34.

with cuts? The cuts, any sense tells you that the cuts are

:20:34.:20:38.

not going to make anything better soon, but I reject the narrative

:20:38.:20:42.

that says that cuts has turned people into thieves in the here and

:20:42.:20:46.

now. Baroness Warsi, we heard Johnson suggesting that cuts to

:20:46.:20:50.

Metropolitan Police budget shouldn't go ahead. He thinks it has

:20:50.:20:55.

to do with the cuts. If you - can go back to Diane's point then I will

:20:55.:20:58.

come to your point. Diane, I completely agree with what

:20:58.:21:01.

been doing when you have been going into Hackney, speaking to

:21:01.:21:05.

people, you have been speaking to the victims, and I completely accept

:21:05.:21:08.

that you have been has been wrong and this is

:21:08.:21:12.

criminality, but at the same time you have also been saying: well,

:21:12.:21:18.

this has something to do with the cuts, to do with EMA, the education

:21:18.:21:26.

maintenancance allowance. No. And the minute you do that you take away

:21:26.:21:28.

personal responsibility and reinforce that culture which creates

:21:28.:21:31.

that feeling that people don't have to suffer the consequences of their

:21:31.:21:34.

actions. Diane wants to respond to that. Yes, with the greatest

:21:34.:21:37.

respect to Baroness Warsi you have been reading the central

:21:37.:21:40.

press release and not listening to what I have been saying but why not

:21:40.:21:45.

tell us about Boris Johnson he is saying about police cuts.

:21:45.:21:49.

Indeed. Boris Johnson seems to think that cuts play a part in this, does

:21:49.:21:54.

he not? I have actually been at the two Cobra meetings, and the

:21:54.:21:58.

question that the Prime Minister has asked the Metropolitan Police on

:21:58.:22:01.

both those two meetings is to say: do you have the resources to

:22:01.:22:06.

the streets and to keep people and they have said yes. I am

:22:06.:22:11.

confident that - should ahead? I am confident that despite

:22:11.:22:14.

the changes in budgets of that they will have the necessary

:22:14.:22:18.

police numbers to go out and keep us safe. So they should go ahead?

:22:18.:22:22.

Let's not forget that during the Labour years when there was

:22:22.:22:28.

unprecedented amount of money - your direct answer to that

:22:28.:22:31.

is yes? Of course the answer is yes because during the time of Labour

:22:31.:22:36.

when unprecedented amounts of money went into the Police Service we

:22:36.:22:42.

found that only 11% of police forces were out patrolling the streets.

:22:42.:22:46.

Again, with respect, you cannot there and tell my constituents

:22:46.:22:53.

police cuts can go ahead. You cannot sustain the levels of policing that

:22:53.:22:59.

we need to keep my constituents - UK, Diane, that's where you are

:22:59.:23:03.

wrong - you can, Diane, you are wrong. Because when you have

:23:03.:23:08.

statistics which show that policing time - Statistics. Only 14% of

:23:08.:23:13.

time was spent on patrolling the streets and 22% was spent on filling

:23:13.:23:17.

in forms and paperwork, that filling in paperwork doesn't

:23:17.:23:20.

keep our streets safe. It's keeping police officers on the beat, on the

:23:20.:23:23.

front line and that's what we've said we will protect. Do you

:23:23.:23:27.

actually think that, when Minister talks about a sick society,

:23:27.:23:33.

he is simply doing what Tony Blair did when he was Shadow

:23:33.:23:37.

secretary and he said in 1993: believe a society that

:23:37.:23:42.

such society is a sick other words, both parties simply

:23:42.:23:47.

play politics, use the same phrases but actually things don't change. I

:23:47.:23:51.

can't answer for Tony Blair I think David Cameron is doing

:23:51.:23:57.

playing to the gallery. Of course, if you stigmatise people and abuse

:23:57.:24:02.

people, people feel better. What saying on behalf of my constituents

:24:02.:24:04.

who saw those riots go past front doors is we need sustainable

:24:04.:24:08.

plans to keep people safe. You can put 16,000 policemen on the streets

:24:08.:24:11.

today. What about next week or the week after? With these police

:24:11.:24:15.

we will not have the policing we need. Diane Abbott,

:24:15.:24:19.

Baroness Warsi, thank you both very much.

:24:19.:24:23.

Now, an army recruit, graphic Now, an army recruit, graphic

:24:23.:24:23.

Now, an army recruit, graphic designer and a primary school

:24:23.:24:24.

designer and a primary school designer and a primary school

:24:24.:24:25.

Now, an army recruit, assistant, these were just some of

:24:25.:24:27.

the unlikely suspects who appeared in court today for their alleged

:24:27.:24:31.

role in the riots. Meanwhile, as the legal system grinds into action, the

:24:31.:24:34.

Prime Minister gave us his diagnosis of the problem

:24:34.:24:38.

highlighting the problems caused gangs in England's inner cities.

:24:38.:24:41.

There's no doubt that some of the disturbances were organised but what

:24:41.:24:45.

part did gangs and gang culture really play in the events of the

:24:45.:24:50.

past few days? Anna Adams has that part of the story.

:24:50.:24:52.

Last night Manchester witnessed some Last night Manchester witnessed some

:24:52.:24:57.

of the most violent scenes in its history. It was a very different

:24:57.:25:02.

picture tonight. The city is not back to normal but a heavy police

:25:02.:25:07.

presence finally brought the city back under control. Moss Side in

:25:07.:25:11.

Manchester is an area not unaccustomed to rioting, but not

:25:11.:25:15.

this time round. Firefighters here came under attack in last night's

:25:15.:25:18.

riots but this time it was not Moss Side, it was from gangs

:25:18.:25:26.

city centre. Ten of their fire engines were vandalised. The

:25:26.:25:30.

firemen now run a boxing club for youngsters and say this is often the

:25:30.:25:33.

only alternative they have to joining a gang here. You look

:25:33.:25:39.

around and the gangs give love, say you are one of us, they feel loved

:25:39.:25:44.

and wanted, and part of it. to do is say: listen, be a part of

:25:44.:25:48.

my gang. This is my gang, this the gang that I run. It's a good

:25:48.:25:55.

gang, it's a gang that's going to down to town tomorrow and try and

:25:55.:26:01.

recover what has been damaged there. This firefighter has just

:26:01.:26:05.

come back from Salford and said shops are still smouldering. It was

:26:05.:26:09.

surreal, like a film set, seeing so many shops damaged and seeing

:26:09.:26:14.

people's reactions. People aren't happy. These mindless thugs just

:26:14.:26:17.

wrecking stuff for the sake of They have no real reason to do it

:26:17.:26:21.

and a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon, then people coming

:26:21.:26:26.

just to watch that are making even worse. The city was eerily

:26:26.:26:30.

quiet tonight. Shops that weren't boarded up closed early and there

:26:30.:26:34.

was still a smell of burning in the damp air. People are worried that

:26:34.:26:37.

scars from last night will take longer than ever to heal. I just

:26:37.:26:41.

think it's shocking because it's their city as well. It's not just

:26:41.:26:44.

our city, it's their city as well and they are kind of doing this

:26:44.:26:48.

their own community and I really understand it. Just

:26:48.:26:54.

disgusting. They've ruined the and they've ruined the

:26:54.:26:59.

for young people. So people are going to look at us and think: yeah,

:26:59.:27:05.

they are all the same. So that's it. It's images like this that have

:27:05.:27:07.

tarnished a city that has done well to shrug

:27:07.:27:12.

well to shrug off the stigma of gang warfare and rioting for decades, all

:27:12.:27:16.

of this undone by one night of looting. A lot of people think

:27:16.:27:20.

I believe this to be true, a lot are seeing them as scum so they act

:27:20.:27:24.

scum. Is it any wonder? Look around, what have they got? Nothing.

:27:24.:27:28.

doesn't give them the right to and smash the place up. He is

:27:28.:27:32.

talking to us. Have I Do you think it's fair someone has

:27:32.:27:37.

been shot in London for nothing? What has that to do with wrecking

:27:37.:27:41.

our shop? Have you got kids? I'm sorry but what has that to do

:27:41.:27:48.

youth workers say here that the youth workers say here that the

:27:48.:27:52.

ideology was nothing like they've seen before. Unlike previous

:27:52.:27:55.

riots they say this had nothing do with politics but was influenced

:27:56.:28:00.

far more by a growing gang culture and that's an image that certainly

:28:00.:28:03.

here in Manchester they will to shake off. We've come to this

:28:03.:28:07.

charity here in Manchester just round the corner from the Probation

:28:07.:28:09.

Service, a building that was attacked in last night's riots. They

:28:09.:28:13.

deal with more than 100 young ever single day just coming to this

:28:13.:28:20.

building and they said at least 65% of them are involved with gangs.

:28:20.:28:23.

It's just the mindset is making It's just the mindset is making

:28:23.:28:26.

money, that's all it is. The one mindset that you have when you

:28:26.:28:32.

are in a gang. No matter how you get it, you will get it. And how do you

:28:32.:28:38.

break that cycle then? Is that you left London? Yeah, you break

:28:38.:28:41.

that cycle by just thinking that you could be better in yourself really,

:28:41.:28:48.

just thinking to yourself: well, this really life because your older

:28:48.:28:51.

people are getting arrested, they've got life stretches, they have to be

:28:51.:28:55.

in prison for their whole life because they wanted to make a couple

:28:56.:29:00.

hundred grand. lot of money, but at what cost

:29:00.:29:04.

really? Trevor Grant has worked with young offenders for more than 30

:29:05.:29:09.

years and said some of the young people were looting as a form of

:29:09.:29:12.

gang initiation. There's structure to gangs, an

:29:12.:29:17.

there's a top and a bottom. If the word goes out, there's a meeting.

:29:17.:29:22.

a particular point, with the they have, they can say: right, I

:29:22.:29:25.

need X amount of people spot to carry out a certain

:29:25.:29:28.

activity. The message from Greater Manchester Police could

:29:28.:29:33.

been more stark. Make no mistake, they said today, we know who you

:29:33.:29:39.

These are not gangs as we know them These are not gangs as we know them

:29:39.:29:42.

and this is certainly not a turf war. Gangs across the country

:29:42.:29:45.

now smaller, more fragmented and this time round it looks like they

:29:45.:29:50.

are motivated only by bling and greed.

:29:50.:29:53.

Diane Abbott is still with us. We Diane Abbott is still with us. We

:29:53.:29:53.

are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh

:29:53.:29:56.

Diane Abbott is still who is setting up a free school in

:29:56.:29:59.

Lambeth and who has strongly criticised lack of discipline in

:29:59.:30:04.

comprehensive schools and by MADIX, an ex-gang member who has served

:30:04.:30:06.

some time in prison. Do you there is a strong gang connection

:30:06.:30:10.

here with what we are seeing? Well, there might be but I think what's

:30:10.:30:13.

more important is that we are a number of young people out

:30:13.:30:16.

who have never been in trouble with the law, breaking the law and they

:30:16.:30:19.

are being encouraged to do so by lack of authority. We've lost

:30:19.:30:23.

authority in our families. These children are bringing home

:30:23.:30:26.

that they've stolen and yet their parents are not taking them to the

:30:26.:30:29.

police to say that their children have stolen things. We've lost

:30:29.:30:33.

authority in the streets in terms the police and what the - the powers

:30:33.:30:37.

that the police have. In teaching we have a saying that says: never smile

:30:37.:30:41.

until Christmas. Unfortunately, since Saturday when Tottenham

:30:41.:30:47.

happened, we've just been smiling. But is part of it, however,

:30:48.:30:51.

of grab what you want culture and that doesn't really matter?

:30:51.:30:54.

words there's no particular morality or sense of worry about the

:30:54.:31:00.

consequences? We live in an intensely materialistic society

:31:00.:31:04.

for a lot of these young people, gangs or no gangs, they are the

:31:04.:31:09.

labels, they are the bling. your trainers. I think materialism

:31:09.:31:14.

has always been an issue in western society but this is perhaps the most

:31:14.:31:17.

intensely materialistic generation of youngsters we've had to deal

:31:17.:31:24.

with. Why is that? MTV. They hit the same shops all the time, JB

:31:24.:31:26.

Sports and mobile phone because they want the bling. It's

:31:26.:31:30.

astonishing. Let me bring in MADIX. Had a do you think of that?

:31:30.:31:34.

think it is about gangs or who are influenced by gang culture

:31:34.:31:41.

but not really hardcore gang members in any way? I think it's families

:31:41.:31:46.

subconsciously fed up, you know, so emotionally things will spill

:31:46.:31:51.

the slightest excuse. Everyone is fed up, I was on the streets at

:31:51.:31:56.

ground level and I saw working class people out there doing their thing.

:31:56.:32:01.

Do you understand? People are fed up. People have got jobs and

:32:01.:32:04.

struggling, people are losing cars and this and that because

:32:04.:32:07.

everything is just too much. They are carrying on anyway but you have

:32:07.:32:11.

a few people that will start it and that will just bring up mass

:32:11.:32:15.

hysteria, it just starts up everything. But come on, being fed

:32:15.:32:19.

up and emotional doesn't lead you to try and brick in a bookies.

:32:19.:32:25.

watched with my own eyes people trying to brick in a Ladbrokes

:32:25.:32:29.

window in broad daylight. What they going to do, get in there and

:32:29.:32:33.

place free bets? A lot of this greed and mindless violence and

:32:33.:32:37.

need to call it what it is. And interestingly Waterstones and

:32:37.:32:42.

local libraries have not been looted. Yes, they are so fed up

:32:42.:32:47.

they don't want to read a book. One issue we've tiptoed around is

:32:47.:32:50.

question of race. Is it that there are some things about a black

:32:50.:32:54.

culture which are very attractive not just to black youths but

:32:54.:32:58.

white and Asian youths who follow in some ways and is there a bad side

:32:58.:33:03.

to that which causes these problems? I think so, and I said MTV earlier.

:33:03.:33:06.

I think unfortunately, when you survey them, young people will say

:33:06.:33:12.

they spend six, seven hours sat in front of MTV base. The kind of

:33:12.:33:16.

culture that is glorified there is men with their cars and their babes

:33:16.:33:22.

and bling, and so on, and then you do find lots of young people - not

:33:22.:33:26.

just black young people but well and Asian young people, you

:33:26.:33:29.

find them shaving their heads and trying to look black in order to

:33:29.:33:35.

more cool. Right. And that's because of this horrible culture

:33:35.:33:40.

that is coming from American - you know, the music scene. Did

:33:40.:33:45.

that kind of thing attractive? I didn't find - what I found

:33:45.:33:54.

attractive when I was young was the A Team, commando, Rambo, all these

:33:54.:33:58.

heroes fighting bad people. That desensitised me to guns, to

:33:58.:34:03.

violence, psychologically it desensitises you. When we

:34:03.:34:06.

something happening, traumatise us. We shouldn't

:34:06.:34:09.

to walk past or capitalise on you understand what I'm saying? We

:34:09.:34:14.

are supposed to be traumatised but the majority of us are not

:34:14.:34:17.

traumatised. These things happen and it's nothing much for them to

:34:17.:34:21.

in, do you understand? I'm trying figure out though why it is that the

:34:21.:34:24.

politicians, David Cameron today and also I think Ed Miliband to

:34:24.:34:27.

extent suggested that behind this and you seem to be

:34:27.:34:30.

suggesting it's far more complicated than that. Do you think there are

:34:30.:34:33.

gangs involved in the of this, or not really? If you

:34:33.:34:39.

to the police, and I have been talking to my police every day,

:34:39.:34:44.

often more than once a day, they will tell you is, if this was

:34:44.:34:47.

just "a gang" organising this looting, actually it would be much

:34:48.:34:52.

easier to disrupt and much easier to find out what's doing. The

:34:52.:34:56.

with it is that it is so chaotic and anarchic. When you pick up people,

:34:56.:35:00.

some of them are members of gangs but basically this is a

:35:00.:35:08.

thing organised by text messages and BlackBerry Messenger. Let me come to

:35:08.:35:12.

black culture. First of all, not all of these looters are black, not even

:35:12.:35:15.

in Brixton. If you are in Manchester, most of the looters are

:35:15.:35:19.

white. But there are issues with some of our young black people,

:35:19.:35:24.

particularly some of our young black men but I won't have black culture

:35:24.:35:30.

stigmatised. My parents are the generation that came in the 50s,

:35:30.:35:34.

60s, were church-goers, loved Queen - more than you love the

:35:34.:35:40.

they loved the Queen - know how much I love the Queen or

:35:40.:35:44.

otherwise! Furthermore, they were grateful to be able to come here and

:35:44.:35:49.

work so there's nothing intrinsic about West Indian culture

:35:49.:35:51.

leads to criminality but I live in Hackney I know there are

:35:51.:35:57.

about some of our young black men but let's not stigmatise the black

:35:57.:36:05.

culture as a whole. But to take MADIX's point about young people who

:36:05.:36:11.

become desensitised to violence - Not just to violence, they are

:36:11.:36:16.

desensitised to sex. They are having sex earlier, they have children

:36:16.:36:22.

who ends up with no father nine times out of ten the child

:36:22.:36:28.

up with no father. It is from there. Young people have had sex early,

:36:28.:36:34.

it's easy to go on about black culture but again going to my

:36:34.:36:39.

father, he became sheet metal worker, his sense of

:36:39.:36:43.

pride was all tied up in that blue collar job. There is no role for

:36:43.:36:47.

working class men, black or who don't have qualifications. It's

:36:47.:36:50.

partly the change in the economy. But education is just so

:36:50.:36:55.

Yes. If the schools are not able - we've got 17% of our 15-year-olds

:36:55.:37:00.

who are functionally illiterate. The problem is that if our school

:37:00.:37:02.

is not performing at the level needs to perform, we are churning

:37:02.:37:05.

out children who literally cannot read and write, they cannot

:37:06.:37:10.

appreciate the beauty of a building, they cannot want to go to a film

:37:10.:37:16.

appreciate the drama in it. And so they are bored. And they are not

:37:16.:37:19.

sensible enough not to go looting broad daylight. That's the other

:37:19.:37:23.

thing. When you were involved in this, was there any organisation or

:37:23.:37:26.

part of the state, the police or teachers or anything that you

:37:26.:37:29.

particularly respected or did not respect any of them? In other

:37:29.:37:33.

words, if a teacher came to you said you are doing wrong,

:37:33.:37:37.

to do it this way, what have said? I remember at the

:37:37.:37:42.

school days, very boring. Like, teachers, most of them was

:37:42.:37:48.

temporaries, a lot of strikes at the time, school was free time. People

:37:48.:37:52.

stopped going to school there was nothing to do there. Until

:37:52.:37:56.

it got better, teachers came in, then it got better, but other than

:37:56.:38:00.

that - But that's why education is so important and when Diane

:38:00.:38:07.

about her father and those times, West Indian people, in so many ways

:38:07.:38:11.

we are losing that. Our young are growing up without a sense of

:38:11.:38:15.

determination to work hard and make their lives better. Or discipline.

:38:15.:38:21.

Exactly. Do you get those from family? If you haven't

:38:21.:38:25.

that functions, you are not going to have it. My father every week came

:38:25.:38:32.

home with a wage packet, gave my her shopping money, us children our

:38:32.:38:40.

pocket money and a bar of chocolate. A lot of families I see are on

:38:40.:38:44.

estates where they just don't go back and work. Before you turn back

:38:44.:38:49.

to our reformed gangster friend, for every gangster or looter there are

:38:49.:38:52.

hundreds of black children trying and I'm really unhappy when

:38:52.:38:55.

people assume that black looters the face of our young black people

:38:55.:38:59.

because it's not. No, and in most black people are horrified by

:38:59.:39:02.

what's going on and what's unfortunate is that a small

:39:03.:39:08.

have the rest of us kind of just we are horrified. Just a

:39:08.:39:11.

thought. You suggested earlier that what we are going to see is

:39:11.:39:15.

generation doing this because - I mean, is that the way you see it?

:39:15.:39:18.

Yes, because it has been happening for generations, and the next

:39:18.:39:21.

generation coming up is going to be worse because it's going to be a

:39:21.:39:25.

different time. People say the BlackBerry helped people

:39:25.:39:31.

this crime. In 1981 how organise it? It wasn't even mobile

:39:31.:39:34.

phones. Whatever form of communication is about that's

:39:34.:39:37.

they are going to use and it gets around like that. It's not a thing

:39:37.:39:42.

that's arranged, sat down, let's have a meeting. It's not like that.

:39:42.:39:46.

It's on the spot, most people know who is running, where they are

:39:46.:39:50.

going, it's mass hysteria, everyone is just getting into it. Do you

:39:50.:39:53.

understand? It's nothing planned, like: we are going to do

:39:53.:39:58.

tomorrow or Saturday. It's not something like that. I think

:39:58.:40:02.

there's more hope like are people like you and your friends

:40:02.:40:06.

but also peekpeople in Hackney - people in Hackney in terrible

:40:06.:40:08.

conditions who nonetheless are contributing to society. We

:40:08.:40:11.

leave it there, thank you. David Cameron also said

:40:11.:40:15.

riots had shown the worst in us and some of the best in us. Communities

:40:15.:40:19.

really have come together to clean up, to protect themselves and to

:40:19.:40:22.

help each other. We have been to two very different communities to find

:40:22.:40:32.
:40:32.:40:37.

To cries of "England!", scores of To cries of "England!", scores of

:40:37.:40:39.

To cries of "England!", scores of self-appointed defenders process

:40:39.:40:40.

self-appointed defenders process self-appointed defenders process

:40:40.:40:40.

through a north London suburb last through a north London suburb last

:40:40.:40:45.

To cries of night and these are the guardians

:40:45.:40:51.

Eltham in London. These are people - looters, if you going to come round

:40:51.:40:58.

here, this is what you get. SHOUTING.

:40:58.:41:04.

Also courtesy of YouTube, some townspeople on the move in Enfield,

:41:04.:41:14.
:41:14.:41:14.

We are the Enfield army. We are here We are the Enfield army. We are here

:41:14.:41:17.

for one reason, to stick up for our families. My girlfriend

:41:18.:41:21.

are sitting at home. I'm here to protect them. We are here to help

:41:21.:41:25.

the police. We do believe, don't we lads, that there ain't enough of

:41:25.:41:28.

them. There's too much going too many different areas. They

:41:28.:41:34.

Enfield was the scene of Enfield was the scene of

:41:34.:41:36.

Enfield was the scene of disturbances on Monday. A huge

:41:36.:41:36.

disturbances on Monday. A huge disturbances on Monday. A huge

:41:37.:41:37.

Enfield was the scene warehouse belonging to a music

:41:37.:41:46.

company was burnt to the ground. To the casual onlooker Enfield is a

:41:46.:41:50.

peaceable market town on the fringes of London, a good place to live, and

:41:50.:41:53.

so it is most of the time, but there are a few clues here

:41:53.:42:01.

the recent troubling events in town. Extra police patrols, discreet

:42:01.:42:05.

beefed up security in some including pubs, and there has even

:42:05.:42:07.

been a prayer vigil here evening.

:42:07.:42:13.

This man wasn't one of the so-called Enfield Army but he says he did

:42:13.:42:16.

some people together in case of an attack on a petrol station next to

:42:16.:42:21.

his estate. REPORTER: Why not just leave it to the police? That's

:42:21.:42:24.

job. You can't always rely on the police and when the police arrive,

:42:24.:42:27.

if they arrive at all, all they are going to do is exacerbate

:42:27.:42:31.

problem. You know what I they are going to do is criminalise

:42:31.:42:35.

the youth, all they are going to do is perpetuate what's going on. As I

:42:35.:42:43.

said before, these people are not very high up on the ladder and would

:42:43.:42:48.

benefit much more from a slap round the ear and being sent home to their

:42:48.:42:51.

parents than they would from a criminal record. In the event

:42:51.:42:55.

never had to put his plans into effect but, if he had, would he have

:42:55.:42:58.

broken the law? How far of the public go to

:42:58.:43:02.

themselves and hair communities? - their communities? If

:43:02.:43:06.

knowledge of a criminal offence can potentially arrest someone. If

:43:06.:43:09.

you have merely suspicion and it's not a reasonable suspicion, no, you

:43:09.:43:13.

cannot. In terms of having a weapon, if you face imminent threat you can

:43:13.:43:16.

arm yourself but you cannot bring a weapon with you unless there is

:43:16.:43:21.

imminent threat that you genuinely believe is out there. Members

:43:21.:43:25.

the Sikh community in West London were sending out a pretty clear

:43:25.:43:27.

signal last night that they were prepared to defend their temple by

:43:27.:43:33.

force if it came to it. As absolute last resort, you have

:43:34.:43:40.

swords, the devices and symbols your faith? We do, and I think

:43:40.:43:46.

sword sometimes can become emotive. What we say is it is an article of

:43:46.:43:50.

faith for us. We would use that as last resort and thankfully it has

:43:50.:43:54.

never come to that and we hope and pray it does not come

:43:54.:43:57.

that so I think that the sight of our community being together and

:43:57.:44:01.

strong and being here will put any persons who want to feel that they

:44:01.:44:05.

want to come and disrespect our place of worship, will be enough to

:44:05.:44:08.

put them off, and I think that to an extent that has been shown

:44:08.:44:12.

is working. What we are saying, are very peaceful and peace-loving

:44:13.:44:16.

and we want to come together as a community, but we are prepared to

:44:16.:44:21.

make sure that our place of worship is respected. The Sikhs have been

:44:21.:44:25.

working closely with the police. But the Met say others who have been

:44:25.:44:30.

tempted to take the law into their own hands have been diverting police

:44:30.:44:33.

resources away from pursuing looters.

:44:33.:44:36.

In an increasingly crowded field of In an increasingly crowded field of

:44:36.:44:40.

amateurs offering their services in the area of public order,

:44:40.:44:44.

English Defence League were out in southeast London last night.

:44:44.:44:52.

these are local people, these are patriots who have come out to

:44:52.:44:58.

their area. So the EDL has come down, about 50 of us to goad

:44:58.:45:01.

down, about 50 of us to down, about 50 of us to guide them

:45:01.:45:06.

and make sure it isn't out of order. This is Ealing and a man here

:45:06.:45:11.

remains seriously ill in hospital. In the past hour, Scotland Yard has

:45:11.:45:14.

released CCTV images of a man it describes as a strong suspect in

:45:14.:45:19.

assault. Earlier, a retired GP here told us at that he and his

:45:20.:45:24.

had been prepared to home. We got shutters on the front

:45:24.:45:28.

door, we've got good locks and everything. We will shut everything

:45:28.:45:32.

in and they said: we already armed ourselves, we've taken Will's golf

:45:32.:45:36.

clubs. I said I think if one actually is pretty solid and says:

:45:36.:45:40.

look, we are three very strong guys and we are not prepared to have you

:45:40.:45:44.

invade our privacy, just get out of here. We recognise our society is

:45:44.:45:49.

so broken. After an extraordinary few days in London, Enfield

:45:49.:45:53.

residents offer their prayers for calm on the streets. Action over

:45:53.:45:57.

and abusive that doesn't necessarily have - action over and above that

:45:57.:46:02.

doesn't necessarily have the Met's blessing.

:46:02.:46:04.

I am joined by Constable Paul I am joined by Constable Paul

:46:04.:46:06.

Deller and by Patrick Hayes who joined a group defending

:46:06.:46:11.

this week. Why did you do it? I was reporting on the situation but

:46:11.:46:17.

I very much like the people on that kind of anti-riot group. I was faced

:46:17.:46:20.

with a situation on Monday where was too scared to leave my house,

:46:20.:46:25.

was watching the situation on telly and really I was faced with a

:46:25.:46:28.

situation where for now four there has been a complete failure of

:46:28.:46:32.

the police to take any control the situation. You've had what are

:46:32.:46:40.

effectively just anihilistic childish thugs setting light to

:46:40.:46:43.

property, putting peoples lives in very serious danger and people feel

:46:43.:46:47.

they can't trust the police anymore. The police are now telling

:46:47.:46:51.

groups such as in Enfield they now need to go home and put faith in the

:46:51.:46:55.

police but where were the police when people really needed them?

:46:55.:46:57.

Everybody knows the stress police officers have been under in

:46:57.:47:01.

the past few days but that is a fair point, is it not? If the police

:47:01.:47:05.

can't be there or aren't there then people will do it for themselves?

:47:05.:47:09.

Into it is a fair point and obviously anybody can defend their

:47:09.:47:13.

own property from attack if they need to but we would be res sent for

:47:13.:47:20.

these groups to take it further start patrolling the streets as a

:47:20.:47:24.

vigilante group or homemade militia to confront groups of rioters

:47:25.:47:28.

because that would lead to a breakdown in law and order

:47:28.:47:32.

completely. Do you see that point? What I saw

:47:32.:47:35.

last night was members of the local community, many were white working

:47:35.:47:40.

class, but we had a range of people from different ethnicities who

:47:40.:47:44.

basically felt they didn't be cooped up inside their homes

:47:44.:47:47.

anymore and wanted to go out and do something. But you are describing

:47:47.:47:50.

it from the inside. If you are walking on the streets

:47:50.:47:55.

on the outside of that group and you see 20, 30, 40 blokes perhaps armed

:47:55.:47:59.

with cricket bats or something and you are not part of that

:47:59.:48:03.

would look like you are threatening, even if the motives are not?

:48:03.:48:07.

Certainly in Enfield there were no weapons last night on display. The

:48:07.:48:15.

sense I got was that the community were broadly supportive,

:48:15.:48:19.

blowing horns and coming out of shops and fire stations and garages.

:48:19.:48:23.

What about the accusations that people from far right groups are

:48:23.:48:27.

capitalising on this? One of things that - I take things on face

:48:27.:48:29.

value, so I went there yesterday really speak to people and

:48:29.:48:34.

because I felt a sense of anger and frustration that things weren't

:48:34.:48:38.

getting done. One of the things that angered me was the knee-jerk

:48:38.:48:42.

reaction that if you have 100 white working class people out on the

:48:42.:48:45.

streets then necessarily they are going to be influenced by the far

:48:45.:48:49.

right or they are going to become thugs. So they weren't there? There

:48:49.:48:51.

may have been a couple of individuals but I didn't get the

:48:51.:48:54.

sense - there were no racist chants there and people were genuine, they

:48:54.:48:58.

were talking about football, about normal everyday things. There is

:48:58.:49:01.

this attitude from the chattering classes in particular that

:49:01.:49:04.

group of working class, white working class people now who get

:49:05.:49:09.

together are just going to be right wing authoritarian thugs. There

:49:09.:49:11.

seems to be no alternative. you have the right to

:49:11.:49:15.

own property but if the best do that is to defend your community

:49:15.:49:17.

and we are all in favour of communities apparently, what's

:49:17.:49:21.

with that? It's how far you the defence of your community within

:49:21.:49:25.

the law. What we don't want to see is a group of white middle class

:49:25.:49:28.

people as has been to the streets. Is that different to

:49:28.:49:33.

any other gang? We've just had a discussion about gang culture and

:49:33.:49:38.

that's what we don't want to see. We would like to see these numbers

:49:38.:49:41.

police officers on the streets of London every night but we can't

:49:41.:49:45.

sustain that. Do you think it adds to your workload when people turn

:49:45.:49:49.

out like this, is that saying? It can do yes because

:49:49.:49:52.

members of the public don't whether it's a good gang or a bad

:49:53.:49:55.

gang. We would like police to deal with all of the calls we

:49:55.:49:59.

get. Resources will be cut. We heard tonight the debate about that.

:49:59.:50:02.

are going to lose numbers. will be less police officers out

:50:02.:50:07.

there and we don't want vigilante groups to replace us. Sorry, we are

:50:07.:50:11.

going to have to leave it there. One of the big puzzles is exactly

:50:11.:50:15.

what drove the what drove the looters: greed,

:50:16.:50:20.

thuggery, complete lack of any moral sense? Others see different lessons

:50:20.:50:23.

from social breakdown, poverty, including poverty of expectations

:50:23.:50:33.
:50:33.:50:47.

and moral chaos behind the scenes of the last few days.

:50:47.:50:57.
:50:57.:51:02.

# This morning I woke up in a curfew # That's why we are gonna be

:51:03.:51:06.

# That's why we are gonna be # That's why we are gonna be

:51:06.:51:16.
:51:16.:51:19.

# This morning I # burnin' and a lootin' tonight #

:51:19.:51:27.

MUSIC: "Burnin' And Lootin'" by Bob Marley.

:51:27.:51:28.

Marley. Marley.

:51:28.:51:29.

MUSIC: "Burnin' And To talk about this I'm joined by

:51:29.:51:35.

former speech writer to Cameron who wrote the so-called

:51:35.:51:41.

hug-a-hoodie speech and also Guardian columnist Zoe Williams.

:51:41.:51:45.

You mentioned today the looters were brought up in erratic and bad

:51:46.:51:49.

discipline. Bad families, is the core of your argument?

:51:49.:51:52.

they are themselves the product after dysfunctional society and

:51:52.:51:59.

Prime Minister said position of our community are sick and that's a fair

:51:59.:52:03.

and accurate criticism. It's harsh but we need to speak harshly. There

:52:03.:52:07.

is a lack of the moral language which sustains a society -

:52:08.:52:10.

goes through generations? Yes, and the heart of the problem is to

:52:11.:52:13.

with the upbringing of children I wouldn't blame parents

:52:13.:52:17.

for that. They themselves occupy culture and community and all of

:52:17.:52:23.

are ultimately responsible for the way our nation's children behave.

:52:23.:52:26.

Zoe you wrote also today but were talking about among other

:52:26.:52:31.

shopping riots and a glorified mugging. Did you see this as the

:52:31.:52:34.

have-notes just grabbing something? There is the authoritarian

:52:34.:52:38.

which says it's a sense of entitlement, these people

:52:38.:52:43.

sense of responsibility, they think only of what you should do for

:52:43.:52:46.

and at the other end of the you have the argument that they are

:52:46.:52:50.

the product of a brutalised poverty in which they see all this

:52:50.:52:54.

they will never afford it, there is endemic unemployment, they have

:52:54.:52:59.

their noses rubbed in it and can see no kind of consequence. You do

:52:59.:53:04.

many people, especially in the criminological community who occupy

:53:04.:53:08.

the bang centre who say there might be a problem in the criminal justice

:53:08.:53:11.

system, it might be too lenient but the fact is how could you have a

:53:11.:53:16.

sense of a lot to lose if you have anything to lose? Is part of it

:53:17.:53:21.

as some say dependency other words that you expect - and

:53:21.:53:24.

also entitlement culture, you are owed something and you

:53:24.:53:30.

take it if you can't get it? Yes, and the worst of that is there is no

:53:30.:53:34.

gratitude. a reliance on the state or sense of

:53:34.:53:37.

belonging, it breeds the opposite, resentment against the society which

:53:37.:53:40.

thinks you are worth 100 fortnight. So yes, there is

:53:41.:53:44.

genuine problem with the fact that people are better off out of

:53:44.:53:49.

They don't want to get into work, don't even want to start climbing

:53:49.:53:53.

the ladder out to work because they lose their housing. Can I raise the

:53:54.:53:58.

issue of unemployment here because it really bothers me. Anybody

:53:58.:54:02.

right says: it should pay to work. Of course, but when unemployment is

:54:02.:54:05.

the highest since records began in 1992 I don't think you can

:54:05.:54:09.

legitimately say these people to be shown the benefits of a job.

:54:09.:54:12.

Nevertheless, we are drawing in immigrants to do the jobs that we

:54:12.:54:16.

won't do. I totally understand and agree with the problem - I don't

:54:16.:54:22.

think that's the same You are not saying jobs these 17 or

:54:22.:54:27.

18-year-olds can get are being taken by Polish people and even if it were

:54:27.:54:30.

were the case, that would be to do with wage settlements not being high

:54:30.:54:34.

enough. There is a genuine with a lack of belief that work is a

:54:34.:54:38.

root for you. I agree that's part to do with lack of supply of

:54:38.:54:42.

jobs young people are able or to do but there is also a cultural

:54:42.:54:44.

input into their childhood tells them there is no point in

:54:44.:54:48.

trying to work because this isn't something that will do them well -

:54:48.:54:52.

I think that's an extreme reading though. When you say there aren't

:54:52.:54:55.

jobs for you how are you to say don't believe in having a job if the

:54:55.:54:59.

job isn't there for you to reject? There needs a culture of work

:54:59.:55:03.

that requires jobs to be there, I totally understand, however there

:55:03.:55:06.

a supply and demand side of this equation and we are not supplying

:55:06.:55:10.

the economy with people who are prepared and want to work. Can I

:55:10.:55:14.

inject a wider note here which is, you talked about this kind of

:55:14.:55:17.

culture where you talked about bling culture earlier in

:55:18.:55:22.

this evening, but if you watch the news at any time in the past two

:55:22.:55:26.

three years and you look at the financial news today, at bankers'

:55:26.:55:29.

salaries and so on, you might conclude that our whole society is

:55:29.:55:32.

run on the greed principle? I that is right. What I do now is run

:55:32.:55:38.

a charity working with prisoners and ex-offenders and we have a dinner

:55:38.:55:41.

we do it every Wednesday night - every week we have this discussion

:55:41.:55:45.

and every week the point is made: why should we do the right

:55:45.:55:48.

when there is this culture of greed and consumption at the top?

:55:48.:55:51.

agree with it. I think the bankers work hard and deserve to be well

:55:51.:55:55.

paid. Whether they are paid the right amount, I don't know, but -

:55:55.:55:58.

What about being held to account a huge financial disaster though?

:55:58.:56:03.

The extent to which the bankers are personally responsible is perhaps

:56:03.:56:07.

debate for another week than this one. He might as well, we've talked

:56:07.:56:12.

about everything else. Quite, but there is this sense that our society

:56:12.:56:16.

is too radically split and there is an unprivilegable gulf and that the

:56:16.:56:19.

MPs have their hands in the till, the bankers are ripping us

:56:19.:56:24.

that is a terrible thing culturally. I don't think the gulf is

:56:24.:56:27.

unbridgeable. There is good evidence to show that when society is unequal

:56:27.:56:31.

as it is at the moment and people at the top are earning 248 times what

:56:31.:56:35.

people at the bottom are earning, that has a number of negative

:56:35.:56:39.

consequences, one of which is family breakdown, another is social unrest.

:56:39.:56:43.

These are not unbridgeable issues. All you have to do is address the

:56:43.:56:50.

financial equality. You can't just let it ride. OK, my priority

:56:50.:56:53.

not be financial equality or inequality, it would be improving

:56:53.:56:57.

the local social relationships young people grow up in. I agree

:56:57.:57:01.

there's a macroeconomics aspect to that and a story about equality

:57:01.:57:09.

which we could address but most directly it's the environment. But

:57:09.:57:13.

all the things which you would interrupt family bonding and empathy

:57:13.:57:17.

such as absent parents, drug addiction, poverty, all of these

:57:17.:57:22.

spring from social inequality. think they also spring from a large

:57:22.:57:26.

centralised state which produces these mass entitlements

:57:26.:57:29.

standardisations and totally disempowers people from communities

:57:29.:57:33.

they belong to. That isn't evidenced. You can believe that but

:57:33.:57:36.

I think it would be better approach the things that you have

:57:36.:57:40.

evidence to approach. Thank both very much.

:57:40.:57:43.

One other huge story this week which One other huge story this week which

:57:43.:57:46.

has been swamped by our domestic difficulties is the market meltdown

:57:46.:57:50.

on the world economy. With the latest from New York I'm joined by

:57:50.:57:53.

our business correspondent Michelle Fleury. What has been happening

:57:53.:57:58.

there? Well, US stocks followed Europe's lead and they started off

:57:58.:58:03.

lower. We saw wild swings in the final hour of trading on the

:58:03.:58:06.

floor of the New York Stock Exchange with the Dow Jones losing more than

:58:06.:58:11.

100 points in the final few minutes to close down over 500 points lower.

:58:11.:58:15.

Part of what's driving this as far as we can tell is fears of another

:58:15.:58:20.

global banking crisis. Now, people obviously last week are at the

:58:20.:58:22.

beginning - or at the beginning of this week were worried about

:58:22.:58:25.

America's credit rating. focus has shifted to France and

:58:25.:58:30.

whether or not that country's credit rating will be downgraded. The major

:58:30.:58:35.

ratings agency has ratings agency has don't foresee

:58:35.:58:38.

that, certainly not at the moment, but that didn't reassure

:58:38.:58:44.

Is the outlook unrelieved gloom? was on the floor of

:58:44.:58:47.

Stock Exchange a bit earlier talking to traders and a lot of them are

:58:47.:58:50.

scratching their heads, saying: look, there is this huge degree

:58:50.:58:55.

fear at the moment. Yes, the risks are real for sure, of a global

:58:55.:58:59.

recession, or at least sort of of potential recession here

:58:59.:59:03.

United States, but nonetheless what's driving the markets right now

:59:03.:59:08.

is just this desire not to hold anything they perceive to be risky.

:59:08.:59:13.

They Don want to hold onto anything for too long and that's why you are

:59:13.:59:16.

seeing these very much.

:59:16.:59:19.

Tomorrow morning's front page. Daily Mail has the grieving father's

:59:19.:59:23.

voice of sanity. Extraordinary dignity of Tariq Jahan talking about

:59:23.:59:27.

the death of his son which described in the Mail as a race

:59:27.:59:32.

murder of three young Asians which "sends riot city to boiling point".

:59:32.:59:41.

The Telegraph has our sick society. Looters in court include a grammar

:59:41.:59:44.

assistant. Riots,

:59:44.:59:44.

assistant. Riots, Cameron

:59:44.:59:44.

assistant. Riots, Cameron under

:59:44.:59:45.

assistant. Riots, Cameron under attack,

:59:45.:59:52.

Johnson calls for a U-turn in police numbers.

:59:52.:59:56.

Pressure to scrap police cuts as Pressure to scrap police cuts as

:59:56.:00:00.

Pressure to scrap police cuts as Birmingham mourns its dead is

:00:00.:00:01.

Birmingham mourns its dead is Birmingham mourns its dead is

:00:01.:00:01.

Pressure to scrap theguardian's front page and the

:00:01.:00:04.

pictures of the three young killed.

:00:04.:00:08.

The FT has focus on the crisis turns to France, and a rather

:00:08.:00:11.

gloomy looking of England, Mervyn King,

:00:11.:00:15.

front page. That's all from Newsnight tonight. We will be back

:00:15.:00:25.
:00:25.:00:48.

with more tomorrow. Keep safe. Goodnight.

:00:48.:00:49.

Hello. Some heavy rain through the Hello. Some heavy rain through the

:00:49.:00:52.

night across parts of the country. The biggest concern will be in

:00:52.:00:57.

Scotland over the next few days. Could see surface flooding, even

:00:57.:01:00.

river flooding across central eastern areas.

:01:00.:01:04.

Heavy rain will work southwards and Heavy rain will work southwards and

:01:04.:01:05.

Heavy rain will work southwards and eastwards. Still persistent rain in

:01:05.:01:06.

eastwards. Still persistent rain in eastwards. Still persistent rain in

:01:06.:01:07.

Heavy rain will southern Scotland and the northeast

:01:07.:01:10.

but lighter than it will have through the morning. Some

:01:10.:01:15.

showers elsewhere. A few brighter breaks into the afternoon on that

:01:15.:01:18.

southwest wind and temperatures into the low 20s.

:01:18.:01:21.

For the southwest and Wales, we will For the southwest and Wales, we will

:01:21.:01:25.

see wetter conditions in morning. Afternoon, some lighter,

:01:25.:01:30.

patch I did not showers. flow across the southern half of the

:01:30.:01:34.

UK, some mist and hill fog possible. Northern Ireland, into the

:01:34.:01:39.

afternoon, brighter in the south, wetter in the north. The northern

:01:39.:01:43.

half of Scotland, the keen wind will be easing so it should be

:01:43.:01:52.

Across the north, a difference in Across the north, a difference in

:01:52.:01:57.

temperatures but rain should be lighter and patchier. Further south

:01:57.:02:01.

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