11/08/2011 Newsnight


11/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, presented by Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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David Cameron declares a fightback against looters, the sick society,

:00:07.:00:13.

and anyone who dares say the police shouldn't be cut. As suspects'

:00:13.:00:16.

homes are raided, the Prime Minister says police tactics were

:00:16.:00:23.

wrong and there were simply not enough officers on the street.

:00:23.:00:28.

truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge.

:00:28.:00:33.

With different people doing the same thing, a sickly looting in

:00:33.:00:37.

different places, but all at the same time.

:00:37.:00:40.

We ask the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, if it's politics that's

:00:40.:00:42.

failed the people. Are parents to blame for failing to

:00:42.:00:45.

discipline their children? We hear from the father of a 16 year old

:00:45.:00:51.

accused of burglary in the riots. Yes, it is his responsibility. How

:00:51.:00:56.

can I be to blame for something he is doing if I am asleep?

:00:56.:00:59.

Can parents like him be doing more? A pop star, a former Deputy Mayor

:01:00.:01:02.

of London, and an expert in family policy give us their views.

:01:03.:01:12.
:01:13.:01:15.

And diversity behind the turmoil - Good evening. And so today, the

:01:15.:01:18.

fightback from David Cameron in the House of Commons in that rare

:01:18.:01:22.

recall of parliament. The PM seemed far removed from the Husky Dog

:01:22.:01:26.

Hugging of his early years as leader. Today, the message was

:01:26.:01:31.

unambiguous and it was tough. He pledged to crack down on gangs, to

:01:31.:01:34.

confiscate rioters' assets and even to offer police new powers to curb

:01:34.:01:39.

the use of social media and messaging. And he also pointed to

:01:39.:01:42.

initial failings of the police, saying the tactics they had used,

:01:42.:01:45.

hadn't worked. But what of the increasing calls from the

:01:46.:01:48.

opposition to rethink cuts to the police? Those were categorically

:01:48.:01:49.

rejected. Our political correspondent, David Grossman,

:01:50.:01:59.
:02:00.:02:00.

reports. The riots, we have been told, were

:02:00.:02:06.

pointless, a declaration of will power. Looters trying to show

:02:06.:02:10.

everyone who is in charge. The same could be said about the recall of

:02:10.:02:14.

Parliament, they are not debating legislation today or will they have

:02:14.:02:21.

a vote, it is all about sending a message about who is in charge. The

:02:21.:02:26.

rise in police numbers from 3,000 to 16,000 officers on the streets

:02:26.:02:29.

of London since the Prime Minister came back from holiday seems to

:02:29.:02:36.

have worked, helped by the rain, nature's gentle water cannon. In

:02:36.:02:39.

the X -- in the unexpected august House of Commons, the Prime

:02:39.:02:44.

Minister said what he thought were the causes. It is preposterous for

:02:44.:02:49.

anyone to suggest anyone rooting in Tottenham at the weekend and three

:02:49.:02:53.

days later in Salford were doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan

:02:53.:03:00.

-- looting. The young people stealing and burning shops, that

:03:00.:03:05.

was not politics or protests, it was theft. He outlined a series of

:03:05.:03:09.

measures to help tackle future disturbances. The army could be

:03:09.:03:13.

used to guard government and other buildings to free up police and the

:03:13.:03:18.

law on face masks will be changed to allow police officers to order

:03:18.:03:22.

anyone at to remove a hoard or mask if they think it is used with

:03:22.:03:27.

criminal intent. And there will be a review of sentences but this will

:03:27.:03:32.

not affect anyone involved in the riots. And there will be help for

:03:32.:03:37.

victims, money to help rebuild businesses and relief from taxes.

:03:37.:03:40.

there is a major problem in our society with children not knowing

:03:40.:03:45.

the difference between right and wrong. This is not about poverty

:03:45.:03:50.

but culture, a culture that glorified violence, shows

:03:50.:03:52.

disrespect to authority and says everything about right but nothing

:03:53.:03:57.

about responsibilities. The Labour leader -- the Labour leader echoed

:03:58.:04:01.

the Prime Minister's statement, at no repeat of the charge some in his

:04:01.:04:06.

party have made that the government's cuts were the cause of

:04:06.:04:12.

the riots. For Ed Miliband, it was cut going forward that worried him.

:04:12.:04:16.

It has been in stark reminder that police on our streets make

:04:16.:04:21.

communities safer and people feel safer. Given the priority the

:04:21.:04:25.

public attached to a visible and active police presence, does the

:04:25.:04:28.

Prime Minister understand why they would think it is not right he goes

:04:28.:04:32.

ahead with the cuts to police numbers he has planned? Will he

:04:32.:04:40.

think again about this decision? was just the first of 20 MPs to

:04:40.:04:46.

raise the question of cuts to the police budget. Now is not the time.

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Fewer is the wrong policy at the wrong time for our society.

:04:52.:04:56.

time I spent in Croydon it was incredibly powerful to hear about

:04:56.:05:02.

the immense frustration and anger those shopkeepers and householders

:05:02.:05:06.

and tenants felt. But the problem was that the police were not on the

:05:07.:05:11.

street, the problem was not about police budgets in four years' time

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but about the availability of the police right now. There are 32,000

:05:17.:05:20.

officers in the mat and we needed more on the streets more quickly

:05:20.:05:24.

and more to Croydon, it is about now and not the budgets of the

:05:24.:05:28.

future -- in the Metropolitan Police. This is where the party

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political battle has caught fire. Over the next four years, the

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coalition will cut the police budget by 6% in cash terms, but

:05:37.:05:42.

factor in inflation and it is more like 20%. Labour says you cannot

:05:42.:05:45.

make savings like that without affecting the number of officers

:05:46.:05:50.

for frontline duties. The coalition says you can use in deficiencies,

:05:50.:05:55.

and both have big official report to back up their case. The

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government relies on the report of Tom Windsor which found 43% of rank

:06:01.:06:09.

and file officers keep normal office hours, unlike 100% of

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rioters. More officers are available on a Monday morning found

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Saturday night and the government says that must change. The

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opposition quits heavily from a report by her Majesty's inspector

:06:22.:06:26.

of constabulary which says the cuts will see a reduction of 16,200

:06:26.:06:32.

police officers, but 30% of that have already been lost. And that

:06:32.:06:38.

only takes the total down to what it was in 2004. But the report is

:06:38.:06:44.

also pretty dismissive of the efficiency savings. Some forces, it

:06:44.:06:48.

says, claim the costs will exceed the savings. The Prime Minister's

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journey this week is not just his hasty flight back from Italy. He

:06:53.:06:59.

has also gone on an ideological trick. His previous criticism of

:06:59.:07:04.

CCTV is now apparently gone and he once promised to sweep away the

:07:04.:07:13.

whole rotten edifice of Labour's surveillance sake -- state.

:07:13.:07:16.

concerns about publishing these photographs. Bringing these

:07:17.:07:21.

criminals to justice! Ed Miliband has stopped his party indulging in

:07:21.:07:26.

the instincts of some to blame the riots on the government's economic

:07:26.:07:31.

policy. In his critique of future police cuts, he has found a strong

:07:31.:07:34.

narrative and it is now down to who the public believes.

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Well, David Cameron has said that the riots showed that pockets of

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our society are sick. Does Labour leader Ed Miliband agree? I caught

:07:40.:07:46.

up with him a short while ago to find out. I would not put it that

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way. I think there are people in our society who did appalling and

:07:51.:07:54.

sickening things and I have been horrified by what happened, and

:07:54.:07:59.

never thought it would come to this in Britain and it would happen. I

:07:59.:08:04.

was in Peckham where some of the riots happened and were surrounded

:08:04.:08:07.

by eight the majority of people who were good and hated what was

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happening as much as me and you and David Cameron, so you cannot

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describe part of our country as sick but some of the people and

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what they have done in sick in what they did. And there were problems

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in society we need to tackle. a curious echo of what Tony Blair

:08:28.:08:33.

said in 1993, he talked of part of the country being sick, did the

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Labour government failed to tackle it? The Labour government made a

:08:38.:08:43.

difference to the country. One of the inspiring things was being in

:08:43.:08:46.

Manchester this week and seen for thousands of young people who came

:08:46.:08:51.

out to help with the clean-up, that is a sign of good things in society.

:08:51.:08:55.

I said a few months ago we have done a lot to improve the fabric of

:08:55.:09:01.

society but we have not necessarily tackled issues around affix, that

:09:01.:09:05.

includes responsibility. Not just the rioting and looting and what we

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saw this week, but other issues at the top of us -- at the top of our

:09:11.:09:17.

society. And at the top of society, do you accept some of that

:09:17.:09:21.

responsibility for being for party in power when these children and

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these looters were growing up under Labour? Of course I accept

:09:26.:09:30.

responsibility. I said in my response today you cannot lay the

:09:30.:09:34.

blame at any single government and that is really important. Good

:09:34.:09:38.

causes are complex, I think we made a positive difference to the

:09:38.:09:44.

country but we have to accept out - - except our share of

:09:45.:09:48.

responsibility. It is individual criminal acts but it is people who

:09:48.:09:51.

think they have nothing to lose from doing first and everything to

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gain from stealing their television, destroying people's lives and

:09:56.:10:04.

businesses, appalling events. New Labour fostered that

:10:04.:10:09.

acquisitive nature and were relaxed about people getting Ralphie --

:10:09.:10:18.

getting wealthy. We were wrong to say that. You have got to send a

:10:18.:10:21.

message about the culture of responsibility throughout society.

:10:21.:10:26.

I am not going to say that bankers are like the looters, that is

:10:26.:10:31.

ridiculous. But the echo of a lack of responsibility we have seen at

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the top of society from some people in the banking community, from MPs,

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even phone hacking, that ethic is something that we need to stamp out.

:10:42.:10:46.

We need responsibility throughout our society from top-to-bottom.

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it responsible for your deputy leader to list specific coalition

:10:51.:10:58.

policies, cuts to EMAs and tuition fees and 0.2 that as being

:10:58.:11:02.

connected to the riots? I saw Newsnight and Harriet made it clear

:11:02.:11:07.

there was no excuse for the violence. She was linking them.

:11:07.:11:13.

me give you be definitive review. I will not lay the blame at the door

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of this Government and say it happened because of cuts de EMAs

:11:17.:11:24.

that is too simplistic. She did. She did not, but let's not argue

:11:24.:11:28.

about what she said. It is too complicated to say it is just the

:11:28.:11:34.

blame of one government or policy, Barak issues of responsibility. But

:11:34.:11:39.

also of opportunity. Her -- there are issues. Of course it is also

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right to say that when people think the best they can do in society is

:11:45.:11:51.

stealing stuff and there are opportunities... If you are making

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massive cuts, there was also the potential for this sort of revolt

:11:57.:12:03.

against that, those with awards -- those were the words of York

:12:03.:12:10.

mayoral candidate, Ken Livingston. The first thing he said it was

:12:10.:12:13.

order needed to be restored and there was no excuse for the

:12:13.:12:18.

violence. If he said the riots were caused by a particular policy, I do

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not agree with that. Where any part of the riots a revolt against these

:12:24.:12:31.

cuts? -- were any. That is too simplistic. The responsibility is

:12:31.:12:36.

not to jump to knee-jerk conclusions from left or right.

:12:36.:12:42.

That is what Ken Livingston has been doing! He said a lot of things.

:12:42.:12:47.

The responsibility of us, and this is why I think there needs to be a

:12:47.:12:52.

public inquiry, because we need to hear from the law-abiding people

:12:52.:12:59.

and we need to reflect on the issues -- to hear from. Inequality,

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responsibility. Societies where people do not have a stake are

:13:02.:13:06.

likely to be places where social disorder happens. Was Harriet

:13:06.:13:15.

Harman pulled up for what she said, and Ken Livingston? Yes? Both of

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them are Queer there can be no excuse for it and they have to make

:13:22.:13:31.

it clear -- both of them have to make it clear that. You are talking

:13:31.:13:35.

today about police cuts going forward, do you think if numbers

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are cut back to where they were five years ago, it would be an

:13:39.:13:45.

apocalyptic scenario? I am level- headed and will not predict that.

:13:45.:13:50.

But it is very important for the public ferry safety on the streets

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and a visible police presence, we have seen the effect of that -- and

:13:57.:14:02.

there is safety. It is not right to make cuts to police officers and

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the public do not want that. It is their responsibility to look again

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at that issue. I am very surprised the Prime Minister has not agreed

:14:11.:14:16.

to a public inquiry. We cannot have the calamitous events of the last

:14:16.:14:22.

few days and say we will not have an in-depth look. Do you think that

:14:22.:14:26.

the cuts David Cameron is proposing put the British public at risk?

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not going to put it that way. Let me put it in my way, I think the

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cuts that have been made of very bad for society. So we are more at

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risk? I will not save there are going to be more riots, come off

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it! Of the public more vulnerable as a result of these cuts? What I

:14:49.:14:53.

carried out, safety on the streets, the next generation doing better

:14:53.:14:59.

than the last, the chances for young people, are set back by the

:14:59.:15:05.

cuts. I am not going to play a word game. It is not responsible of need

:15:05.:15:10.

to say there will be riots because of these cuts. People want to know

:15:10.:15:14.

what difference this makes. People are interested in safety on the

:15:14.:15:18.

street and there is more likely to be safety a police numbers are

:15:18.:15:24.

maintained, of course that is right. So if numbers are not maintained,

:15:24.:15:29.

they are not as safe? That is a word games. Safety is paramount and

:15:29.:15:34.

of course you are more likely to have safety if police numbers on

:15:34.:15:44.
:15:44.:15:45.

As we have heard, David Cameron made it clear today he believed the

:15:45.:15:48.

police tactics during the riots were wrong. A charge I put to the

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man who represents chief police officers, Sir Hugh Orde. No I don't.

:15:53.:15:58.

The police faced an unprecedented situation, not just in London, but

:15:58.:16:02.

across the country. They were truly unique circumstances. What the

:16:02.:16:05.

service did, as it always does is learn and respond with incredible

:16:05.:16:09.

speed. We went, as the Prime Minister acknowledged, from 6,000

:16:09.:16:13.

officers in London, for example, to the most officers deployed ever on

:16:13.:16:17.

one event, to 16,000 the following night. At that point, you saw,

:16:18.:16:21.

while the violence continued and moved around the country to

:16:21.:16:24.

different locations, the force responded, I think magnificently.

:16:24.:16:28.

And the officers put huge effort into protecting communities and

:16:28.:16:32.

more importantly protecting life. What would you say then there are

:16:32.:16:36.

far too police deployed on the streets and the tactics, bluntly,

:16:36.:16:42.

were not working? I don't possess foresight, neither do my chief

:16:42.:16:45.

police officer colleagues. This was a new set of circumstances. The

:16:45.:16:49.

trick there is to make sure you respond and learn quickly. One of

:16:49.:16:51.

the great strengths of an independent police service, the

:16:51.:16:55.

like of which we have in this country, is we do that. We are

:16:55.:17:01.

transparent. We do learn quickly and we pull together. The leaders

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of this service, all of whom understand the work line, because

:17:04.:17:08.

they have been there, work tirelessly to support each other in

:17:09.:17:14.

ACPO to make sure we have the staff at the right places. The tactics

:17:14.:17:18.

decided by chief officers and their staff, being put in and the model

:17:19.:17:22.

of policing sustained and the robust policing tactics we choose

:17:22.:17:27.

to adopt delivered. Why did it take politicians coming back from

:17:27.:17:31.

holiday to get the police to do what they already have the power to

:17:31.:17:35.

do. Theresa May, for example, specifically said she had ordered

:17:36.:17:41.

the cancellation of all police leave. The Home Secretary has no

:17:41.:17:44.

power whatsoever to order the cancellation of police leave. The

:17:44.:17:48.

fact that politicians choose to come back is an irrelevance in

:17:48.:17:53.

terms of a tactic which is then developing. The vehicle tactics you

:17:53.:17:57.

saw, the more robust policing tactics you saw were not a function

:17:57.:18:00.

of political interference. They were a function of the numbers

:18:00.:18:04.

being available to allow the chief constables to change their tactics

:18:04.:18:08.

to the number of staff they had. know that cuts to police numbers

:18:08.:18:12.

are coming. Do you believe it will make people less safe? We are, as a

:18:12.:18:15.

police service, we are determined to keep people as safe as we can,

:18:15.:18:21.

with the resources we have been given. It is true there are cuts of

:18:21.:18:27.

20% to policing over this current spending period. Inevitably and

:18:27.:18:30.

predictablely that will lead to less police officers. We have been

:18:30.:18:35.

very clear about that. It will lead to less police staff. Therefore,

:18:35.:18:38.

it's more difficult. Her Majesty's inspectorate reported the

:18:38.:18:40.

leadership of the service has minimised the impact on the front

:18:40.:18:45.

line by taking people out of other places. But the chief inspectors

:18:45.:18:48.

acknowledged in years three and four of the spending period that

:18:48.:18:53.

becomes far more difficult. We need to have some very honest

:18:53.:18:56.

conversations with Governments about what we stop doing if we are

:18:56.:19:01.

to maintain front-line service delivery at current levels.

:19:01.:19:06.

Orde, thank you. Joining me now is the deputy leader of the Liberal

:19:06.:19:10.

Democrats, Simon Hughes. Let's start there. This seems to be where

:19:10.:19:15.

the political line has been drawn on police numbers. Should the

:19:15.:19:18.

public be concerned about these cuts? Yes, they should be. They

:19:18.:19:22.

should ask the question, will it affect the service, will it affect

:19:22.:19:25.

the number of people on the street? I have always taken the view you

:19:25.:19:29.

don't get a direct read across between numbers of police officers

:19:29.:19:33.

and effective policing. It is how you deploy them. One example,

:19:34.:19:37.

admitted by the police, this last week has revealed when you needed

:19:37.:19:41.

them to be dealing with riots and demonstrations, actually most of

:19:41.:19:46.

them couldn't do that, because only about one in five, of what are

:19:46.:19:50.

called level two officers, who are trained to have riot control gear

:19:50.:19:54.

and head gear. The rest had to be withdrawn. That is not satisfactory.

:19:54.:20:00.

You need most police officers to be able to deal with that if needed.

:20:00.:20:04.

That is an organisational thing you are talking about. Will the cuts of

:20:04.:20:07.

20% in real terms make a difference? Of course it might make

:20:07.:20:12.

a difference. The Government so far has been very firm. It is saying

:20:12.:20:15.

for budgetary reasons we had the Chancellor re-enforced today, we

:20:15.:20:19.

have to stand firm on public expenditure. The police will try

:20:19.:20:23.

and adapt. You may well get a much more different type of police

:20:23.:20:29.

service. If you have more volunteers, more civilians doing

:20:29.:20:33.

more things uniformed people do. You could get as good policing the

:20:33.:20:37.

numbers we will have, which is less than numbers. You say you could get.

:20:37.:20:42.

Do you think we will? It depends how well the police respond.

:20:42.:20:47.

you putting that to Nick Clegg as a concern? Would you like him to....

:20:47.:20:49.

Of course I have registered that it is a concern. I understand the

:20:49.:20:52.

Government's position. The Government are saying at the moment,

:20:52.:20:56.

look we've set our course for the next four years. We have to get the

:20:56.:21:00.

economy under control. I accept that. Nick Clegg is not looking at

:21:00.:21:06.

this as an issue, despite all the questions, post the last set of

:21:06.:21:10.

elections, going your own way and showing your own spine, he is not.

:21:10.:21:15.

I have come from a party with wr we ask you -- argue you need the

:21:15.:21:19.

police out there, visible. Of course it's an issue. Nick Clegg is

:21:19.:21:23.

our party leader and the Government understand that. There's one other

:21:24.:21:28.

issue that clearly.... Do you think they'll change their mind on this

:21:28.:21:31.

one? It is on the agenda. The difficulty for Labour in arguing it

:21:31.:21:35.

is that they don't have any alternative as to where the money

:21:35.:21:39.

would come from. They would have had cuts too. They would have

:21:39.:21:42.

reduced the budget for the Home Office. It is not as if they are in

:21:42.:21:47.

a strong position to argue.... coalition partners are the

:21:47.:21:51.

Conservatives. Do you think they are having a tremor now and

:21:51.:21:54.

thinking for political reasons for public reasons this will not look

:21:55.:21:58.

good? There'll have to be a review of policing in England after the

:21:58.:22:02.

events of this week. The Home Affairs Select Committee is the

:22:02.:22:04.

right place to start. They may come up with recommendations on this

:22:04.:22:08.

issue. I think the Government, an intelligent Government will want to

:22:08.:22:11.

hear the evidence from the police and the public. At the moment the

:22:11.:22:15.

public don't think the problems were caused by police cuts. They

:22:15.:22:19.

think they were by criminality and gangs. We have to watch this space.

:22:19.:22:23.

I want to get you on a few areas that David Cameron was talking

:22:23.:22:26.

about. He was talking about fast- tracking people through the courts.

:22:26.:22:33.

More use of CCTV. Nothing more of that edifice of Labour surveillance

:22:33.:22:38.

state and a draconian sounding plan to interfere with private messaging

:22:38.:22:42.

services. This must be uncomfortable territory for you?

:22:42.:22:46.

live in one of the areas affected. I was out there the other night

:22:46.:22:50.

seeing what was happening. I take the view you have to have curfews.

:22:51.:22:55.

You have to have further powers to require people to take off their

:22:55.:22:58.

face coverings. You have to ask questions about whether you can

:22:58.:23:03.

just allow all the mobile phone companies.... Checking people's

:23:03.:23:06.

private messaging services, this sound like something that would

:23:06.:23:11.

come out of Iran. That is not what is being argued. With the co-

:23:11.:23:14.

operation with the companies you address the question as to whether

:23:14.:23:17.

on occasions there could be interventions. We are not there yet.

:23:17.:23:21.

One last thing, we have to make sure that young people and the

:23:21.:23:24.

youth services are supported. There'll be a debate about making

:23:24.:23:28.

sure we do that better. Parents and young people need to be better

:23:28.:23:33.

supported too. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. If your

:23:33.:23:36.

child return with a brand new pair of trainers or a PlayStation, or if

:23:36.:23:39.

you don't know where they were last night, question them. A rallying

:23:39.:23:44.

call from community leaders to parents in the light of Britain's

:23:44.:23:49.

worst rioting for decades. How many have scared to pick them up on

:23:49.:23:54.

their actions or who did not think they had done wrong? Are

:23:54.:23:59.

politicians right to focus on how we are raising our children? Our

:23:59.:24:03.

correspondent has spent the day in Tottenham, speaking to those who

:24:03.:24:07.

live there. There's no more room for it.

:24:07.:24:13.

These children need a good whipping. A good whipping.

:24:13.:24:16.

No respect from the parents, no understanding. Most of the things

:24:16.:24:20.

you learn in life, most of them are from my friends. When you are

:24:20.:24:25.

outside on the road, it's different. There's no parents about.

:24:25.:24:28.

Government t police, even the X Factor have been blamed for the

:24:28.:24:33.

unrest this week. Now politicians have settled on something else. So

:24:33.:24:39.

now bad parenting is coming into it. Can you blame looting across the

:24:39.:24:44.

country on mums and dads? There's one way to find out and it's not by

:24:44.:24:49.

speaking to the parents themselves. This youth club in Tottenham helps

:24:49.:24:55.

young people get out of trouble and stay out of trouble. These

:24:56.:24:59.

youngsters were not involved with the riots, but they say they easily

:24:59.:25:03.

could have been. There's no respect from the parents. There's no

:25:03.:25:06.

understanding. No relationship. No communication. That is why they

:25:06.:25:11.

think we are free to do what we want. Does that come from the

:25:11.:25:15.

parents? It is the parent's fault. Obviously it comes down to your

:25:15.:25:18.

primary education, which is your parents. You live with your parents

:25:18.:25:23.

four or five. Then you go to school. School does not teach you that at

:25:23.:25:28.

that young age. If they haven't embedded it into you young they

:25:28.:25:33.

cannot expect it from you as an adolescent. Some young people are

:25:33.:25:36.

oblivious to everything around them and they are about themselves and

:25:36.:25:39.

they will have no regard for anything and will go against you,

:25:39.:25:43.

regardless of what you taught them. I was one of those kids. My mum

:25:43.:25:48.

would tell me. I wouldn't listen. I wanted to do my own thing. My mum

:25:48.:25:53.

raised me the best she can, really. I don't really like with parents,

:25:53.:25:57.

like when you're inside you're kind of different with your parents.

:25:57.:26:02.

Like you're more good, if you know what I mean. When you are outside,

:26:02.:26:07.

there's no parents about. So you kind of do what you want really.

:26:07.:26:11.

You have peer pressure. It's not just what parents taught you. Most

:26:11.:26:15.

of the things you learn in life, you learn from your friends. You

:26:15.:26:19.

learn from school, from your association. Do you think the

:26:19.:26:22.

greater influence is actually your friends rather than your parents?

:26:22.:26:27.

Yeah, because I mean, like, like, I would say when you're at home you

:26:27.:26:33.

only show about 30% of who you really are. When you're outside,

:26:33.:26:37.

the parents don't know what goes on outside. Big emphasis of the

:26:37.:26:41.

previous Labour Government was the Respect agenda and schemes to help

:26:41.:26:45.

parents and children. The young people I spoke to said schemes -

:26:45.:26:48.

what schemes? Do you know if your mum had any help from Government

:26:49.:26:53.

initiatives when you were younger? No. She didn't have nothing to help.

:26:53.:26:58.

Nothing. She never had no help, really. She just done what she knew

:26:58.:27:03.

what her mother told her what to do and stuff like that. She just done

:27:03.:27:08.

what she could really. Nothing direct. In summer they had summer

:27:08.:27:12.

schools open. Like boxing courses open. Stuff like that. Nothing

:27:12.:27:16.

direct or personal. What can they help them with? It a

:27:16.:27:23.

east not going to change the kids behaviour. If you are 14-15 you

:27:23.:27:28.

want to miss behave, what can your mum or dad say to you? When you got

:27:28.:27:31.

yourself out of violence that was not to do with a Government

:27:31.:27:35.

initiative. That was all you? was all me, really. They never done

:27:35.:27:40.

nothing for me. No Government help, minimal parenting and for some of

:27:40.:27:43.

these young people trouble in education.

:27:43.:27:48.

I got expelled from school at 12. I was expelled from three schools by

:27:48.:27:55.

12. You got excluded too? I was excluded from school. I also got

:27:55.:27:58.

arrested. I was just young and silly, if you know what I mean.

:27:58.:28:03.

Just going out, beating up people. Did your mum teach you that wasn't

:28:03.:28:08.

the right thing to do? She tried to. She tried her hardest to, but she

:28:08.:28:14.

also knows how it was because she was... She let me learn in my own

:28:14.:28:19.

time f you know what I mean. She didn't pressure me. She knows how

:28:19.:28:25.

the young atmosphere is, like. not too much discipline? Not too

:28:25.:28:29.

much, no. Sacha takes me to meet her mother in the council house

:28:29.:28:34.

they share with some of her four sisters. She says she wants to be a

:28:34.:28:38.

tough parent, but the Government won't let her.

:28:38.:28:45.

No. There's no bad parents. The Government, they give the kids the

:28:45.:28:49.

rights. Takeaway the rights from the parents and give it to the kids.

:28:49.:28:55.

So even if the parent are talking to their kids, you know. Do you

:28:55.:28:59.

feel disempowered? Yeah. It's the same message we're hear

:28:59.:29:03.

from teachers, police and community leaders. The question is; where did

:29:03.:29:09.

the power go? Is it too late to get it back?

:29:09.:29:13.

So how much are parents to blame for what has been happening.

:29:13.:29:19.

Joining me now the pop star Jamelia, who grew up in Birmingham in a

:29:19.:29:23.

single-parent family. Ray Lewis who works with young children at the

:29:24.:29:30.

Eastside Young Leaders Academy. Dalia Ben Galim from the IPPR.

:29:30.:29:35.

Thanks to you all for coming in. It is great to have you here. Jamelia,

:29:35.:29:39.

talk us through, you grew up in one of the areas, actually closely

:29:39.:29:43.

related to some of the rioting this week. Do you think a lot comes down

:29:43.:29:51.

to parenting? I think it's very easy to blame parents. I think it's

:29:51.:29:55.

- the main issue is society as a whole. I feel we are very

:29:55.:29:58.

segregated. We are not paying attention to what our neighbours

:29:58.:30:03.

are up to. We are not taking any responsibility. I think it's very

:30:03.:30:08.

easy to live in a bubble and to think that somebody else's problem

:30:08.:30:12.

is their problem. But a parent, particularly parents in the inner

:30:12.:30:17.

city, they are suffering. They are going through, they are going

:30:17.:30:21.

through so much. They are finding things very hard. My mum was on

:30:21.:30:26.

benefits and I can tell you, for her to try and elevate our social

:30:26.:30:30.

and economic situation, she had to work. Which meant that it left us,

:30:30.:30:33.

some of the time to fend for ourselves. And that is what happens

:30:33.:30:41.

in a lot of these inner city...: How do you get out of it? You are

:30:41.:30:43.

an award-winning singer-songwriter. It might have been a different

:30:43.:30:53.
:30:53.:30:55.

story for you. What do you put it I think there are so many things

:30:55.:31:00.

that cause children to act in the way that we have seen. We need to

:31:00.:31:06.

stop seeing this as someone else's problem. As we have seen, these

:31:06.:31:10.

parents everyone is trying to blame, their children are affecting

:31:10.:31:16.

everyone, not just the best situation. That is what needs to

:31:16.:31:21.

stop. It is not someone else Poznan problem. We need to work together

:31:21.:31:26.

and be a community, get together and work on this problem and how we

:31:26.:31:33.

can change this. When you listen to this, is this essentially about it

:31:33.:31:40.

relationship of children and parents? Or do the bankers have

:31:40.:31:46.

something to answer for, the phone hackers? It is really interesting.

:31:46.:31:52.

The diversity has shown it is not a particular group of people. And as

:31:52.:31:58.

Jamelia Has been talking about, it is an issue in society. The IPPR

:31:58.:32:03.

has done research around parents and it shows support around

:32:03.:32:06.

universal child care to allow parents to work and know their

:32:06.:32:11.

children are learning, flexible working opportunities, to build

:32:11.:32:15.

those quality relationships between parents and children and that wider

:32:15.:32:19.

community. Those are the policies we need to think about to broaden

:32:19.:32:23.

out and tackle these challenges. Ray Lewis, parents always get the

:32:23.:32:30.

blame, whatever they are doing. think parents do get a hard time

:32:30.:32:34.

and in some sense that is understandable, because the home is

:32:34.:32:39.

where a child spends most of their time so we expect that socialising

:32:39.:32:44.

agents to be more effective. What is more important and one of the

:32:44.:32:47.

things Airport the Mayor of London for his we do not want to put the

:32:47.:32:56.

blame on people, it is important to make a difference -- one of the

:32:56.:33:00.

things I applaud. He has had a drive... What do you make of the

:33:00.:33:04.

woman who wants to be tougher on the film and wants to have more

:33:04.:33:09.

discipline but says the government would not let her? If we are going

:33:09.:33:14.

to look in the political sense, I am pleased that Ed Miliband took

:33:14.:33:18.

some share of responsibility, because so much of Labour policy

:33:18.:33:23.

has disabled and December Howard families. So we have a culture

:33:23.:33:27.

where people are afraid to discipline children -- and this

:33:27.:33:32.

empowered families. Some of what we have seen on the streets in recent

:33:32.:33:37.

times of the manifestation of failed policies of liberalism.

:33:37.:33:41.

state that became too big and welfare that became too easily

:33:41.:33:48.

obtainable? I am not sure if that is the analysis, other things are

:33:48.:33:52.

happening. If you think about the long-term youth unemployed, that is

:33:52.:33:57.

another factor. It does not explain or condoned the riots but is a

:33:57.:34:02.

reasoned and something we have to think about. It has been rising and

:34:02.:34:06.

one in four young people have been out of work for 12 months, said

:34:06.:34:14.

that has an effect on people's job prospects. -- so that has. Jamelia,

:34:14.:34:18.

give me the free things that would make things different? Would you

:34:18.:34:23.

talk about domestic abuse, and gang violence, crime? We need to start

:34:23.:34:30.

with the children, particularly those who do not have male and

:34:30.:34:35.

female role models. It is important for every child to get that and we

:34:35.:34:39.

need a social strategy to provide that for every child. Is the

:34:39.:34:42.

government ready to say you should get more if you are a married

:34:42.:34:48.

couple? Marriage does not have anything to do with it. I grew up

:34:48.:34:53.

without a male role model and in my adult life, I have paid for it. Now

:34:53.:34:57.

I have two daughters and I am a single mother and it makes a

:34:57.:35:01.

difference to me to make sure I have positive male role models

:35:01.:35:06.

around my children as well as female. My mother was female

:35:06.:35:11.

orientated, and it caused me issues when I was older. I genuinely

:35:11.:35:16.

believe it has helped my own children. Jamelia Is talking about

:35:16.:35:20.

not realising that until she was growing up, this is the problem for

:35:21.:35:25.

politicians that you make policy decisions that turn out to have

:35:25.:35:32.

completely failed degeneration 15 years later? That is the case and

:35:32.:35:35.

these are all our children and we will pay or profit from what they

:35:35.:35:41.

have become. In each of the areas where there has been crime and

:35:41.:35:46.

rioting, we have seen the Mayor of London running a listening campaign

:35:46.:35:50.

through community conversations trying to hear and understand what

:35:50.:35:55.

is going on in people's lives. And a role-model scheme he is rolling

:35:55.:36:00.

out in London will make a difference. Thank you very much,

:36:00.:36:06.

and there are of a mayoral candidate, we should say! -- the

:36:06.:36:12.

O'Hair are other mayoral candidates. -- there are. So when there's a 12-

:36:12.:36:15.

year-old boy going through the courts for looting a bottle of wine,

:36:15.:36:17.

when there's a 14-year-old girl similarly accused of nicking a pair

:36:17.:36:21.

of designer jeans, what are we supposed to make of what this says

:36:21.:36:24.

about our society? What kind of kids are we raising in this

:36:24.:36:27.

country? Stephen Smith looks at the profile of some of those involved.

:36:27.:36:32.

These are some of the criminals who had pleaded guilty in the past two

:36:32.:36:36.

days two charges arising from disturbances in London and Greater

:36:36.:36:40.

Manchester. They have been appearing in round the clock

:36:40.:36:50.
:36:50.:36:51.

hearings that have been processing scores of defendants. This 22-year-

:36:51.:36:56.

old appeared at one of the 24 hour sessions, before Westminster

:36:56.:37:02.

magistrates. He was bailed over charges of violence and racial

:37:02.:37:09.

harassment. As the court sat beyond regular hours, the 16-year-old

:37:09.:37:13.

appeared beyond -- appeared before a juvenile court accused of theft

:37:13.:37:18.

in Croydon. His father, who cannot be identified for legal reasons,

:37:18.:37:24.

spoke about his son's behaviour. What they are all -- what they are

:37:24.:37:31.

alleging he has done, I am annoyed of what he has done. I cannot

:37:31.:37:38.

believe... Are you ashamed? I am not ashamed, I cannot believe he

:37:38.:37:44.

has done it. To be ashamed is any taking the blame but I cannot tie

:37:44.:37:49.

him to a bed, I am not allowed to, I cannot hit him, I am not allowed

:37:49.:37:54.

to, I cannot look him in his room, I am not allowed to. At the things

:37:54.:37:59.

that parents used to be able to do, they cannot do now -- all the

:37:59.:38:04.

things. This court has been operating round the clock since the

:38:04.:38:08.

disturbances. Those expecting to see places like this for of the

:38:08.:38:13.

underclass, whoever they are, have been in for a shock. Those facing

:38:13.:38:22.

charges include middle-class people, professionals, undergraduates, the

:38:22.:38:26.

well-to-do. At various hearings in London and the South of England, a

:38:26.:38:31.

law student has been accused of violent disorder, the daughter of a

:38:31.:38:35.

successful businessman has appeared on counts of burglary, and a social

:38:35.:38:39.

worker has pleaded guilty to stealing a television set after

:38:39.:38:44.

turning herself into police. When people say comic yes, some got

:38:44.:38:51.

caught up in the event, it is true. -- when people say, yes.

:38:51.:38:57.

Circumstances and opportunity are a great motivator. They stood around

:38:57.:39:01.

and watch it and may have smiled to think the police could not do

:39:01.:39:05.

anything. But many others were thinking, this is trouble, let me

:39:05.:39:11.

get out of here. There is not an entirely innocent explanation if

:39:11.:39:15.

you were not next to a riot for more than two or three minutes and

:39:15.:39:25.

just stayed there. As police live up to their claims to arrest

:39:25.:39:30.

suspects and bring them before the courts in short order, details have

:39:30.:39:35.

emerged from one court about the people in the dock. Of 56 people

:39:35.:39:40.

appearing yesterday at Camberwell, south-east London, a third were

:39:40.:39:44.

teenagers, the biggest group in their early twenties. A 5th of

:39:44.:39:48.

charges were for violent offences, but more than three-quarters were

:39:48.:39:53.

for burglary. 70% of offences were committed outside the borough where

:39:53.:39:58.

the accused lived, perhaps indicating gang members travelling

:39:58.:40:05.

away from their patch to root. In Manchester, a boy of 12 he ran away

:40:05.:40:10.

from the supermarket with a bottle of wine went to court with his

:40:10.:40:14.

mother to red-necked burglary and was given a nine-month referral

:40:14.:40:22.

order. -- to admit burglary. Later, both of them swore at reporters. A

:40:22.:40:27.

girl of 11, here, it received a similar centres in Nottingham after

:40:27.:40:31.

admitting she was part of a gang that threw stones at shops, she

:40:31.:40:37.

said she did not think she would be caught. Order suspects found the

:40:37.:40:41.

rhetoric was tough in the city's court. A judge told one man

:40:41.:40:46.

convicted of obstructing police. Let me give you a piece of worldly

:40:46.:40:56.
:40:56.:41:00.

Words of advice were not confined to the bench, as a BBC team found

:41:00.:41:03.

in Manchester when they approached the family of a man who has

:41:03.:41:08.

admitted burglary. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,

:41:08.:41:13.

so... So have the political -- So have the political battlelines been

:41:14.:41:17.

drawn this week? And who appears to be coming out on top? Joining me

:41:17.:41:20.

now are Miranda Green, a journalist and former press secretary to Paddy

:41:20.:41:22.

Ashdown, Nick Watt, Chief Political Correspondent at The Guardian, and

:41:23.:41:25.

George Pascoe-Watson, former Political Editor of The Sun and now

:41:25.:41:30.

a partner at Portland Group Communications.

:41:30.:41:33.

Is this the day Cameron stopped being a Liberal Tory and became a

:41:33.:41:41.

proper Blue Tory? There is no doubt whatsoever David

:41:41.:41:46.

Cameron has had a good day and has come back from his holidays and got

:41:46.:41:51.

a grip on the situation. He has been prime-ministerial. It would be

:41:51.:41:55.

hard for anybody not to be under these conditions. And the hard

:41:55.:41:59.

right of the Conservative Party which has been looking more for

:41:59.:42:03.

some sort of red meat, particularly when it comes to law and order,

:42:03.:42:08.

will be pleased and satisfied by the substance which David Cameron

:42:08.:42:11.

came out with today in terms of how he will deal with policing and law

:42:11.:42:17.

and order. And will this last? difficulty is he is in a coalition

:42:18.:42:21.

and there will be pressure from the Liberal Democrats and from the

:42:21.:42:26.

Labour Party he will go on police cuts for a long time. It has the

:42:26.:42:31.

Prime Minister said, at least cuts is not the reason this happened.

:42:31.:42:35.

And clearly difficult, uncomfortable territory for the

:42:35.:42:38.

Liberal Democrats. And we have seen from what Simon Hughes said about

:42:38.:42:44.

the division. Indeed, I agree very much with George and I think David

:42:44.:42:48.

Cameron did not have any option than to go in hard when he returned.

:42:48.:42:53.

As we know from past experiences, one thing the public will not

:42:53.:42:57.

forgive is a government not in control, presiding over a period of

:42:57.:43:04.

public disorder. So it is important to assert control as the government.

:43:04.:43:09.

But the unity shown in Parliament today over condemning what has been

:43:09.:43:14.

Hammett -- happening as criminality, not describing it to social factors

:43:14.:43:18.

like Harriet Harman will hold for a while, but there is a big

:43:18.:43:22.

conversation to be had about society's values and the direction

:43:22.:43:27.

of the country in the next few years as austerity bites, and these

:43:27.:43:32.

issues will disrupt the government. When Ed Miliband was basically

:43:32.:43:37.

saying, yes, it New Labour got things wrong, Peter Mandelson's

:43:37.:43:41.

quote about the filthy rich was wrong, people look back on those

:43:41.:43:47.

New Labour ways of dealing with social disorder, they are not in a

:43:47.:43:51.

great position to fight back on this. Ed Miliband would say this

:43:51.:43:56.

time last year he was busy burying New Labour so got himself into the

:43:56.:44:00.

right place. But what is interesting from what she saw with

:44:00.:44:04.

that interview with Ed Miliband and him in the House of Commons is he

:44:04.:44:08.

is not going down the Harriet Harman route which he did the other

:44:08.:44:13.

day of blaming the spending cuts. He is fashioning an argument to say

:44:13.:44:19.

that we, everyone, is responsible for the lack of responsibility. And

:44:19.:44:23.

Ed Miliband has been making this argument for some time and at two

:44:23.:44:27.

levels, he says there is a lack of responsibility at the top of

:44:27.:44:31.

society. So he was in a good position when the phone hacking row

:44:31.:44:36.

came along. And in June, he said there was a lack of responsibility

:44:36.:44:41.

at the bottom of society. It is interesting that two leaders are

:44:41.:44:45.

both using what has happened as a springboard into what the rest of

:44:45.:44:50.

the message for the next few months will be. Ed Miliband clearly is

:44:50.:44:54.

trying to give the impression he cares about the future generations,

:44:54.:45:00.

that is his big sell. David Cameron is saying to his party, I am a

:45:00.:45:06.

right wing man when it comes to law and order and not a civil

:45:06.:45:10.

libertarian, this is my opportunity. David Cameron is now back to the

:45:10.:45:15.

territory from before the election of a broken society, the Liberal

:45:15.:45:19.

Democrats not happy. Before the election, he said it was bottom up

:45:19.:45:22.

and people should take responsibility, today he was

:45:22.:45:28.

talking about state action. State action on CCTV, the same

:45:28.:45:34.

philosophy... Is he going to stop talking about the big society?

:45:34.:45:38.

I do not think he can. There will be solutions within his big society

:45:38.:45:48.

The language used today is significant. David Cameron talking

:45:48.:45:53.

about our "sick" sotd. You would never get a Liberal Democrats use -

:45:53.:45:56.

- society. You would never get a Liberal Democrats using that phrase.

:45:56.:46:06.
:46:06.:46:07.

You would not have thought it was fine for one to say oh, CCTV foot -

:46:07.:46:12.

- footage. As someone who lives in a deprived area in the country, not

:46:12.:46:17.

just London, how you protect the poor from gangs, this is about

:46:17.:46:22.

protecting the poorest. It sound like a few of the people we've had

:46:22.:46:25.

on this evening detect a slight wobble on the whole police cuts

:46:25.:46:30.

number. Do you think it will change now? I don't think so. I don't

:46:30.:46:33.

think there's any indication within the Government they will re-think

:46:33.:46:38.

this at all. This is a numbers game. We are in this position financially.

:46:38.:46:43.

They can't go back on it. It seems clear to me that the number of

:46:43.:46:46.

police around over the weekend t problem was they weren't out on the

:46:46.:46:52.

street. It wasn't that we had too few. We had a classic Simon Hughes

:46:52.:46:55.

moment today. He is trying to have it both ways. Saying maybe we are

:46:55.:46:59.

not sure about the police kurts. What happened in the Cabinet? Nick

:46:59.:47:04.

Clegg stood up, pointed to the intervention, I completely support

:47:04.:47:09.

these cuts. Thank you for coming in. Let's whisk you through the front

:47:09.:47:16.

pages. There you go; a concealed youth leaving Manchester

:47:16.:47:21.

Magistrates Court. Those comments might spring to mind about making

:47:21.:47:31.
:47:31.:47:39.

The FT leads on the economic stuff. This is what we are talking about.

:47:39.:47:43.

That sense that that will not alter Government policy.

:47:43.:47:48.

That's all from Newsnight tonight. I will be here again tomorrow. From

:47:48.:47:58.
:47:58.:48:07.

Hello. A grey, damp, drizzly start tomorrow. Some places will brighten

:48:07.:48:10.

up. In the west the cloud will thicken. Further outbreaks of rain

:48:10.:48:13.

for Northern Ireland and western Scot lands. That rain will drift

:48:13.:48:17.

into north-west England. To the east of the Pennines I'm optimistic

:48:17.:48:21.

things will brighten up and we could see sunshine across the East

:48:21.:48:30.

Midlands and south-east. A misty humid day across south-west

:48:31.:48:35.

England. It will be grey most of the day. Outbreaks of rain for

:48:35.:48:40.

Devon and Cornwall. It shouldn't be too heavy in Wales, but further

:48:40.:48:43.

north heavy rain early on in Northern Ireland. The afternoon may

:48:43.:48:48.

see things turning drier, but only for a time. It will turn wet for

:48:48.:48:52.

western Scotland. The far north- east should hang on to brightness.

:48:52.:48:55.

That rain will move across all of Scotland during Friday evening,

:48:56.:49:00.

leaving behind it Saturday, well some brighter interludes. But

:49:00.:49:08.

there'll be a fair few showers across northern Britain on Saturday.

:49:08.:49:10.

It should turn drier during the afternoon on Saturday. As I said,

:49:11.:49:14.

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