25/08/2011 Newsnight

Tonight, Newsnight take us to the core of the riots that have

horrified us all, and why they happened. In a shocking report on

the violence in Manchester, Newsnight discovers young men with

no remorse for the damage they have inflicted on their own city and

their own neighbours. Something to tell the grand kids. Something to

tell the kids when I'm older. When I go back into town I will think

the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.Ly Speak to a friend of

all those men, an oner in of the shop that got smashed to Smith

reens, and Diane Abbott. Can any blame lay with unemployment. Much

of the employment taken is taken by eastern European, hungry for work.

The hunt for Colonel Gaddafi, did the take Tateor escape through

these tunnels under - dictator escape through these tunnels under

the compound. It is difficult for the rebels to

operate in Tripoli, but the sooner they can get there and establish

their own authority there the betterment

We hear from the prominent writer, John Steinbeck John Steyn, who once

thought the United States was teflon-coated, but now believes

their time may be up. The courts are dealing with the

mayhem and criminality that beset London and other cities two weeks

ago, the aftermath is still traumatic. In Manchester and

Salford, 20 police officers were injured, 150 fires were started,

four of them had fire crews attacked and they had to stop. 100

shops and premises were looted and smashed up. The charges included

recklessly endangering life, assaulting a police officer,

burglary and criminal damage. Mancunians could not believe the

extraordinary scenes of violence and destruction in their much loved

city, neither could the rest of us. The debate is still raging why

about the riots happened, and why the criminals relished the

destruction. The police officers in charge of the CCTV for the Arndale

Centre, called the perpetrators feral rats.

Everything just started escalating. People just starting coming out of

everywhere. On Bebo, Twitter. on Twitter, sent a message, get

down to Manchester. People going absolutely crazy. I was buzzing,

smashing windows and police cars and stuff.

There was nothing that the police could do, there was an overwhelming

sense of power. On the night of August 2011, the mob took control

of the centre of one of England's biggest cities. This is their story.

Two weeks on from the violence that consumed Manchester, Britain is

still coming to terms with how quickly civil society broke down up

and down the country. Who were the rioters, who were the looters and

where did they come from. We came to Manchester to find out.

Salford, the district where the trouble first ignited. Jamie

Darrington told us everyone was watching what was happening in

London. That a distinct sense of unease had been building Australian

morning. Everything started escalating, people just started

coming out of everywhere, shops, culling out of their homes, hoods

up. People running up the subway, smashing bottle, look at the state

of it down there already. That is couple of weeks afterwards. You

have people trying to rip shutters off Tesco and somewhere, chemists

getting broken into. Everything, just every little business really.

Who was doing it? Everyone who was round here.

Jamie watched in amazement as hundreds of men, women and children,

descended on the shopping precinct, many setting out on a path of

destruction. Jamie received message after

message, asking him to join in. He didn't. Police were attacked, as

was a cameraman, making this recording.

Send a message out on Facebook, Twitter, send a message out on

whatever social networking site, BBM, just normal text messages,

group together, let's go rob a shop, let's go rob Tesco. When we say

everybody was doing it. Are you talking about mothers and fathers,

and uncles, saying ...I'm Talking about families pulling up in cars,

and filling the car boots with food, and whatever they can take. But the

majority of the people were 14-25- year-old, running around, hoods up,

mass en masse, going crazy. There was no sense of race involved, this

is a predominantly white area? majority of it was white people.

There weren't any black people who were round here rioting, the odd

few, but it was white people. why were they doing it? Was it

anger, poverty, just day out? poverty, because they could.

Greater Manchester Police drafted officers from all over the city to

combat the violence in Salford. Drivers panicked as they tried to

escape the anarchy. It took police nearly four hours to stablise the

situation. The trouble here sucked in a huge amount of police

resources and numbers, leaving the centre of Manchester very

vulnerable. It wasn't long before people took advantage, and the

anarchy spread like wild fire. Two miles away, crowds began

gathering in Manchester's Picadilly gardens, trouble seemed inevitable.

Everyone we spoke to emphasised how rioters used their phones to

connect in advance of the disorder. Go out, get on the phone, get on

Facebook, send a message, get down to man chester, send to every

contact in your phone book. That is how it happened really. There is no

way that amount of people got down here that fast. At 5.20 it arrived.

People stormed up Market Street, forcing shoppers and commuters to

run for cover. The Arndale Centre, the commercial Jew we will in the

city's crown came under siege, and the police just managed to push

them back. The mob, by now, including children, was thousands

strong. They broke into shops, attacked cars and targeted police.

Fire engines drove past arsonistings, looters flaunted

their stolen good, in front of lines of policemen. The

extraordinary and unpalatable truth, is for 12 hours one of the

country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and

out of control. Cody Lachey was caught up in the

French circumstance an ex-soldier, he served two tours in Afghanistan.

I have seen a lot of stuff in my life, from being in the army. I

have never seen anything like that night, in the war there is rulings,

there was no rules, get what you can take. If it is not literally

tied down, take it. He says he didn't loot, he admits he was part

of the mob. People were running in every different direction, people

were running in and way, different directions, people with handfuls of

stuff, people with TV, bags, dragging suitcases they had looted.

It was mental, carnage, complete and utter carnage. You were

surrounded by looters, some were your mates? Of course, yeah.

were saying it was so lawless that looters were presenting and

taunting police officers with the stolen goods? Normally, any other

day, they would run away. But that day there was that many of them,

the police didn't have the power, the people had the power, and the

people were turning up to the police and saying listen this is

what I have got. People standing there with bottles of vodka, and

with beers, and saying fuck off, saying what are you going to

fucking do. There was nothing the police could do. It was an

overwhelming sense of power. asked him to take us to some of his

friends who took part in the looting, so we could find out what

happened and challenge them on whether they felt responsible for

their actions. It was just part of a big mob. It was just, I know,

just cause as much trouble as you can. Who organised it, was it a

collective, a community? It was all of it, it was on Facebook. Loads of

kids getting together, it has come together. If it wasn't for Facebook,

the blackberry. Anything with an attack line, Bebo, twittwiter, it

got to that, all went round. Everyone has got together in town,

and it has kicked off. A load of kids got together. It was a lot

better than sex or better than anything. You can't describe it,

because you were in the atmosphere, and you knew it might not happen

again, so you could just do it then and get away with it. I was just

chilling, first. I heard the windows go through, I put my hood

up, bally on, and went through to the shops. Everyone shop got taken

out, I decided to join in, get what I want. What did you get? I got a

TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes, that's it. With the door

open, windows smashed, or did you smash them? Ripped the shutters off,

got in. Took some stuff out of it. How did that make you feel? How did

that make me feel? I was buzzing, just smashing windows and police

cars and stuff. It must have felt very commanding and powerful that

you could smash a window, grab a TV and know you could walk past a

policeman and nothing would happen? There was too many of us, they

wouldn't have just jumped one of them the police would have got

jumped on. Walking off with a TV, it is not just one of you, it is a

big group walk ago I way with TV, you know they will not stop you.

Did you walk past a group of police officers with TVs in your hands?

Yes. People were brazen, people are very brazen, people without masks

and ballies on running out of shops. That night, it was like you were

invincible. We will remember this. Something to tell the grand kids.

Something to tell the kids when I'm older. Every time I go back into

town I will think the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.

Laugh about it every time I go back in there.

There was no concern for the victims. I asked whether they felt

they were part of society? Do you feel as if you are disenfranchised

is the phrase, that you don't have a stake in society? It was a main

factor. You could do anything to get more money, won't you. And

other people have got money. So, why can't we. For all the poverty

and all your background, do you take responsibility for your own

actions? Yeah. You take responsibility for your actions?

want to say no, I didn't have to do it, but I thought I would do it.

was your choice and your responsibility? Yeah. Do you think

the police will catch either of you? No. No. No. They have nothing

on me that they can find on me, everything is sold and gone.

This estate is in Wythenshawe, eight miles south of Manchester,

where hundreds jumped on bus, got lifts in cars and even walked into

the city centre to join in the chaos.

These young men admit to being there that night, but deny engaging

in any lawlessness. Over here then. Who was down there in Manchester?

Everyone. What did you do? didn't join in, we just watched it.

We're not looters, we're not tramps. Tell me what happened, I wasn't

there? There was people running at the police. At the end of the day

getting their own back, innit. is also the very place where David

Cameron came in 2007, to talk about the broken society. And where his

photo opportunity was memorably ambushed by a local hoodie, Ryan

Florence. Now David Cameron has said that pockets of society are

not just broken, but sick. The Prime Minister says you guys, you

represent the broken society, you know. Is society broken? No shit

mate. Once you gets off his arse and gets around the estate like you,

talking to us, instead of slagging us off and giving a us a bad name,

until then, tell him to fuck right off. He was down here in 2007.

know, Florence. He says you don't know values or the difference

between right and wrong, he says this because you do it from you are

from dysfunctional families, and dad isn't around. What does your

dad think about you being involved in some of the axe youiveties that

hit the screens - activities that you hit the screens, the looting?

Got a new TV, sweet. When they parents aren't controlling the

kids? My mum and dad are strict people, they couldn't stop me doing

what I was doing. Serious, they tried their hardest. It is not

about the parents, it is about the kids wanting to do it, do you know

what I mean. If your son wanted to burgle a house, what could you do

to stop him, nothing really. If I say, you are filming me, it is all

good. If you tell me, how could, if the parents, if you weren't

listening to your parents, is that you have no respect for your

parents? It is not that I have no respect. It is a different day and

age, they were growing up in the old school, it is a different day

and age now. You think that you guys are growing up quicker?

don't grow up, oh dear me, you have to grow up fast. Getting money to

get drugs mate. Is that too many adults on drugs or kids? Everyone,

mate. If you are going to distill parts

of what they said comes back to the old sense of depravation, drugs,

criminality. But it is interesting that one of the guys said that the

parents were strict, that they tried to keep him in check, and it

didn't work, because kids are becoming adults an awful lot

quicker. For many I spoke to, the riots were

about power, about an opportunity to challenge the rule of law, and

about excitement. There was no remorse, many of these

young men weighed up their options and the consequences and decided

they had nothing to lose. Joining me now in the studio is

Cody Lachey, who you saw in that film. Ain Kinsella, whose shop in

central Manchester was looted during the riots, and the Labour MP

for Hackney, Abbott. You had a highend television shop, when you

hear the way the boys were talking in the film, no remorse, what do

you think? Terrible, the society is what it is. Those guys basically

started off before the riots, as they were, and they are still the

now. It is whether or not we can control them going forward. What

happened when you got to your shop? When I got to the store, basically

the store was destroyed inside, and the window was put through. The

grill was mangled. I stood at the front of the shop, and I was

approached by numerous people who just looked like those people there,

asking could they come into the store and take some more stuff

while I was stood there. I tried to persuade them against it, until I

was chased off by people dressed like that. On what basis did they

think you wouldn't mind? Because it was free, everything was free and

there was no rules. What about insurance? You're sured maid mate,

you will be OK. I may be insured, but - You're insured mate, it will

be OK. I may be surety but still. Everybody is disgusted watching

that? It was terrifying, I had no control over this mob that kept

approaching. You said yourself in the film, that you were down there

to be part of the mob, when you got there you decided not to loot?

dressed a certain way when I left the house as to be inconspicuous to

join in with the crowd. When you hear this story, are you not

absolutely ashamed of everybody's actions? I'm a very proud Mancunian,

very proud, but people...You Didn't mind seeing shops smashed to

smitherens? People do what they have to do to survive. This night,

in Ian's words, you could take what you want. It was lawless Manchester,

the police were there, to do nothing else but to maintain what

was going on. Fought for Queen and country, twice in Afghanistan, you

did a tour in Bosnia, you have also been a security guard for many

different shops in the city, including Selfridges, why don't you

turn in those looters? Because I understand, some people, what

happened that night, people did off their own backs, everyone knows

right from wrong and people made their own actions. We live in an

impoverished society, where people do what they have to do to feed

themselves and their families, that is the life we live in. You hear

people in the film, your friends, saying it is something to tell the

grand kids? I said that. Did you say it in what way? I said it in a

sense, there was no a sense of overwhelming power against the

authorities, you couldn't be touched. It was nice for the people

that have got nothing to have that power. What do you think when he

says it was something to tell the grand kids that is a night of

power? Something to tell the grandchildren maybe, mine will hear

a different story. The amount of power that these people have, I

agree, they have the power, the police were there trying to control

them in a very limited way. It was a different kind of riot that they

have never been trained for, quite frankly, which is why they couldn't

control it in London, Birmingham or Manchester. They couldn't control

the way that this riot developed and the way it literally evolved in

front of them. Because they were not there in Manchester to confront

the police on an issue, they were there just to cause mayhem and

destruction. As soon as the police turned up they ran away and did it

somewhere else. The police had to chase them to another area. We all

know about social media and the role it had to play. When you saw

people looting in shops, it is not a picture of someone looting, there

is an owner this that shop, people with jobs, you probably knew some

of the shopkeepers? It is a double- edged sword for me. People went out

that night to take what they could get. People struggle and do what

they have to do to feed themselves and the families, that is the

society we live in. 99% of the population does that without

criminality? With respect, the people that came into my store, the

majority of equipment that was damaged in my store, wasn't taken,

it was smashed. There wasn't the need to smash a speaker to feed a

family. Diane Abbott, people will be horrified to hear this

conversation when people had no remorse whatsoever? Well, horrified.

What you saw in Manchester was the mentality of the mob, although that

is a scary film, that is not something new. Before I came out I

was reading about medieval riots in London, 1,000 people smashing

everything, 13 of them got hanged. The Gordon riots in the 18th

century. That doesn't excuse this? I'm not saying that. There is

something about the mentality of the mob. People, you know, people

get fuelled by it. It is like football hooligans, I'm not giving

them the excuse, I'm saying you have to understand it, and the mob

makes people feel empowered, and periodically, every century, even,

a city like London will have frightening riots, it is not new.

That's my point. That is his he troo, let's say, - history, is it

not disgusting that nobody in that film expressed remorse? They don't

have any social contract with society rightly or wrongly. That is

why they don't express remorse, they don't feel they have a stake

in society, that is why they don't express remorse. Let's be clear

they are not the whole of the young people in Manchester or a fraction

of the young people in Manchester. No, but a pretty destructive group?

There is a danger of demonising all young people seeing a film like.

That they don't have a stake in society. What can be done? We need

to win back control of the streets, we kind have done, it rained,

people don't come out in the rain. Secondly, some how you have, Cody

is the one to say, what could politicians do to make young men

like that think they had any stake in society? Right, just from our

perspective, I have grown up in the same society, my mum and dad taught

me right from wrong, people make their own decisions, come hell or

high water. We look at MPs, look at the expenses scandal, right, if

these people that are running the country and have a say in society

are cutting corners and doing the taxpayer out of money, how can they

point the finger at us who have nothing and belittle us. What

should we do, that's what I need to know. Ian is something who has

suffered that? I can't take that as an argument, with the greatest will

in the world, the MPs doing what they did with expenses. Stealing is

stealing. I have no objective to, that they have gone and suffered

for it. With the greatest will in the world, it doesn't excuse the

mob mentality, unfortunately the mob mentality took over the city

that night, if they carried on, I said this on camera on the nigh f

they carried on the following night, without the rain, there would have

been nothing left. If I can ask you before we finish, you know these

people and you talk to them, could this happen again? Very easily.

This wasn't orchestrated, if this was orchestrated, places like

Selfridge, an affluent shop, some of the watches worth hundreds of

thousands of pounds, if it was orchestrated they were the shops

that would have gone first. The police are talking about cutting

numbers. The police couldn't maintain that many people f it was

orchestrated and more people came the police couldn't do anything

about it. Could it happen again? could, but there is way of

controlling it. It is literally, it is read the riot act, use their

media against them, send them a text, send them on Bebo and

Facebook, if you are in the city centre, intending to riot, you will

then have a curfew. That is not strong enough. We have to go beyond

that to the whole issue of jobs and education. But the long-term needs

different answers. We've got no prospects, that is why people do

what they do they have no prospects, no jobs, no nothing, that is why

they struggle. Indeed, one of the solutions the Government identified

in the aftermath of the riots improving the employment prospects

for disaffected young people. Workers from Eastern Europe still

believe there is a market for their skills in Britain. During the last

week, David Cameron promised a reduced net immigration to this

country in the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds of

thousands. But last year it was up 21% on the year before. Where does

it leave the Prime Minister's pledge, and their plans to get more

people into work. Immigration is simply too high at

the moment. If you look at what's happening

with immigration, the difference between what's happening with

people going to live overseas and those here, it is often as high as

200,000, I want to us bring immigration down so it is in the

tens of thousands, not the hundreds of thousands.

Ed Miliband's response to that election promise was to say he

wouldn't match it, because he didn't think David Cameron could

deliver on it. So what must the Prime Minister be thinking today?

On his watch, net migration has risen to 240,000, that's an

increase of 4%. For a Government which made immigration one of its

top priorities, that is a problem, not just from the opposition

benches. It shows the task of getting immigration, or net

immigration down to tens of thousands is going to be a

difficult one. And we'll have to make a lot of choices which will be

controversial. We may have to go further than the policies already

announced. We could well follow the Scandinavians and have a much

higher age for people coming here for marriage, and that would reduce

the use of marriage as a proxy for immigration rights. And it's not

just net migration that's making problems for the Government, it is

who is getting a job. The latest official figures show more than

two-thirds of all extra jobs created last year went to foreign

nationals. The picture is complicated. Every year a very

large number of jobs are disappearing, and an equally large

number, or you hope in good times, and an even larger number is

created. Of that the total number of jobs changing hands in the

economy, about 85% go to people here, only 10-15% go to foreigners.

It is true to say of the extra jobs created, the net difference between

one that is were just replacing other jobs that disappeared, or the

extra, a large proportion of it is made up by people coming into the

country, not having a job before, and now they are getting a job in

Britain for the first time. Another survey of employers, out this week,

gives cause for concern. In 2010, a third of employers were prepared to

hire British 17 and 18-year-olds, now only a quarter are look to go

do so. That is the same proportion that want to employ foreign workers

from the EU, a record high and in direct response to the Government's

cap on non-EU immigration. The real challenge for the

Government is not to talk about reducing immigration from outside

the EU, hoping that will make employers turn to young people

already here, because the evidence shows that is not happening, they

will turn to people from inside the EU, to Eastern Europe, with numbers

are rising. The challenge is to look at skills, vocational training,

apprenticeships for young people and try to get them more attracted

to employment. Today's figures show a huge rise in net migration of

workers like these, from Eastern Europe, up to 39,000 from just

5,000 last year. The other big factor is a steep drop in people

emigrating from the UK. We can't control people who have the right

to move within the EU. Certainly and obviously no Government should

try to control the emigration of its own citizens, what it is

sensible for Governments to do is control what it can control, which

is people coming here from outside the EU. Just last week the office

of national statistics said 35% of all new extra shops are going to

foreign nationals, why is that happening? In various sectors this

country has become addicted to immigration, and like weaning

anyone off an addiction, it requires time, and it requires

patience, and it requires perseverance. That is what we are

doing. We need a better balanced immigration system, we need lower

immigration into this country, we also need a better skilled work

force. But the Home Office says there are no plans to change the

Prime Minister's ambitious target for reducing migration. No, none at

all, it is very important that we get immigration at a sustainable

level, not just for our economy, but also the wider health of

society. If people have confidence in the immigration system, some of

the social stresss and strains we have seen in recent years go away.

It is still a vote-winning message, but the reality is last year, the

number of people moving to the UK, was the same as the population of

Stoke-on-Trent. That's under a Conservative-led Government. To

keep their supporters on side, they will have to do more than hope for

better figures next year. As we came on air, there were

reports that the fledgling Libyan Government has announced it is

moving to Tripoli, but that doesn't seem to be their only concern.

Yesterday the head of the Libyan transitional council was in Paris,

and today in Istanbul, everywhere, asking for money. It seems to have

paid off, Italy agreed to release $500 million in frozen assets, and

a deal was reached with the UN to release billions of funds. We're in

Benghazi where the Government in waiting is still there. Any news of

the rebels move to Tripoli? Several ministers have already moved to

Tripoli. Others are expected to follow shortly. But the head of the

transitional council, Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, most people think he

won't follow for some days, at the very least. Basically, there are

still considerable security concerns, and obviously members of

the council are very obvious targets for Gaddafi loyalists. The

problem is to balance the security considerations against the danger

of creating a political vacuum, in Tripoli. Really they need an

inclusive Government in control, in Tripoli, as soon as possible. I

think whatever happens there is bound to be very robust political

jockeying for positions in Tripoli in the weeks to come. We have just

heard about the UN deal on relosing assets, how badly does the National

Transitional Council need money? Basically, it is a liquidity

problem a shortage of physical cash. In towns which have been besieged

for a long time, like Misrata, people haven't had wages for months

and months, even here in the east, where there hasn't been much

fighting for months, people are getting a fraction of their

salaries, or only intermittently. This isn't just an economic problem,

but a political problem. People are saying they fought so hard for

victory over Gaddafi, they want to see the economic fruits of that.

The other thing talked about here is the return of the Lockerbie

bomber, Al-Megrahi, there has been calls for his return. What are

people saying there? This is a very interesting question. Obviously Al-

Megrahi was released to come back here, two years ago, on the basis

that he was about to die. He is still alive. But, on the other hand,

of course, this was a decision very spesif clo of the Scottish

Executive, it would be - specifically, of the Scottish

Executive, they would have to ask for them back. It would be their

First Minister, Alex Salmond admitting they made a mistake. In

practice demands for Al-Megrahi to to be returned are more likity to

come from the United States. We know - likely to come from the

United States. We know American politicians were very unhappy about

his release. When it will happen, it is too early to say. Earlier

this evening I spoke to the Foreign Secretary, William Hague. How much

of a problem is gad being at large and the fighting still going on, in

terms of trying to create stable society and a Government? It is one

of the important things, to bring him to justice. One of several

important things, of course, also to bring more order and security to

be established in Tripoli, for the National Transitional Council to

have access to more funds. What happens to Gaddafi is one very

important component. How much are the special forces from the US,

France and Britain able to help on this? We don't comment on the

special forces, for good reason, if we talk about them we will endanger

them, we don't do that. At the moment there are reports of

atrocities on both sides coming through. How important is it there

isn't a power vacuum, and the transitional council gets to

Tripoli? It is very important, we are encouraging them to do, that

they have done a good job so far. They have done a good job in other

parts of the country. I was impress bid them in Benghazi. It is

difficult for them to operate in Tripoli, the sooner they can get

there and establish their own administrative authority there, the

better. Do you think they should be there, despite the fighting? They

should get there as quickly as possible, we are actively enCo

Couraging them to do that. - Encouraging them to do that as soon

as possible. Will there be diplomats to help them get a civil

society together? There will be shirts on the ground most

definitely. We have a strong team in Benghazi, we have already had an

international stablisation team, giving advice to the National

Transitional Council. We can help them with advice on policing,

clearing land mine, and with �20 million of immediate assistance we

have set aside. There is an awful lot of money not in the country

that will be needed. Most things that need to be done, wages paid,

roads rebuilt, that is the sort of thing that the transitional council

will need if they are going to secure authority for themselves.

Can you get money there now? have made a good start on this,

yesterday South Africa was the remaining reluctant country, and

agreed to the release of $500 million of assets in the United

States. We want a further $1 billion of dollars to be released,

there are tens of billions of dollars that belong to the Libyan

state, that need to be returned to them in managed way, that guards

against any misaproper racial of those assets. That is one of the

things we will be discussing at the UN over the next week and the Paris

conference, which the Prime Minister and President Sarkozy will

co-chair a week from now. worried are you about an implosion

that there will be mayhem and lawlessness, which seems to be

rising up now? We should always be concerned about any chaotic

situation. But, of course, there have been concerns all the way

along. People said we couldn't get a resolution, then we couldn't

enforce a no-fly zone, a permanent stalemate, now the concern is will

there be a situation that is too chaotic for too long in Tripoli.

That is why we are doing all these things to try to release the funds

and get the National Transitional Council there, and get more

international recognition for them, so the people of Libya can see

there has been a fundamental change. Are you going to demand the return

of Al-Megrahi from the transitional council, while they are in power?

This is a matter for the Scottish ministers, as you know, they took

the decision to release them, the Prime Minister and I were in

opposition at the time, we strongly disapproved of the decision. I said

earlier this week, if I was a Scottish minister I would look at

this again, and review it to see what I could do. If they want, if

in Scotland they want the active support of the UK Government in

seeking information about him and supporting any representations they

want to make about him, they will get energetic support. Finally on

Syria, there is not even support for a sanctions resolution, but if

there is, soon, a democracy in Libya, if things calm down, will

that embolden the UN, and David Cameron to suggest that actually

there should be a similar action in Syria? Syria is a different case.

In Libya we have acted with full legal and international authority,

and strong support from within the region. Syria clearly is in a

different category in that sense. The pressure that we can afly on

Syria - apply on Syria is different in nature. If we want to stay

within the international law. Libya the idea was to protect

civilian, civilians are in trouble in Syria? That's right, but it is

also important we act with full legal and international authority.

What we are doing is steadily ramping up the sanctions on Syria,

we announced additional sanctions alongside the US this week, and

more EU sangss coming up this week. The message will go out, as Libya

embraces a free, democratic and inclusive future, that tyrants or

authoritarian rulers cannot stand permanently against the wishes of

their population, to have a free future.

As America faces the prospect of borrowing $125 billion every month,

just to patient bills. What does the future really hold for the

superpower. The writer Mark Steyn see as post apocalyptic situation,

and Armageddon. Here is where he thinks Uncle Sam is heading. It is

the Apocalypse Soon thesis, the idea that the time of America's

economic domination is over, and others, like China are set to fill

their shoes. After predicting the collapse of the rest of the western

world in his first book, America Alone, he argues in After America,

that the rush for self-destruction has hit America. It is his aspirin

against the drunkle sailor policies in Washington. He starts with the

money, Obama's non-stimulating stimulus, impending financial

collapse, before lambasting the whom culture in America, the shift

away from the can-do spirit, to the can-do with some Government

spending spirit. It is the kids picking up the check after the old

timers' almighty bender. Live free or die, from 1,000 soothing

caresses of the nanny state is the mantra to the young. Steyn's mantra

is strip way Government, decentralise, demonopolise,

decredentialise, anything to force the status out of our pockets and

out of our lives. But he's clear that the fall will not be pretty,

and not be gradue. His forecast predicts a slide within - gradual,

his forecast predictss a slide within the next ten years. He

thinks the US is big enough to fail, and heading towards being the next

empire to shop until it drops, literally. The bubble about to pop

isn't the property market or cheap credit, it is the US of the 21st

century itself. The author joins me now. Do you

think that America is in a worse position than Europe? I think so,

if only because the sums of money are so much greater. I mean, when a

multitrillion dollar disaster slides off the cliff it lands with

a much bigger thud than Iceland and Portugal. But America is richer and

bigger to withstand it? I don't think, I think you can do the debt

to GDP comparisons, in the end, here the hard money sums are so

hugement we are talking about America depending on the rest of

the planet being willing to sink 20% of its entire GDP into US

Treasury debt by 2020, that is astonishing Are you really

suggesting that western civilisation is over? Basically

yeah. I think it gets back to what you were talking about earlier. I

think the downgraded credit rating in America, and the downgraded

human capital on the streets of Manchester, we saw earlier, are

actually part of the same story. The really evil thing about big

Government is not just the waste of money, but the waste of people.

if big Government hadn't stepped in America in 2008, the ATMs would

have had no money in them, people wouldn't just lose their houses but

loot anything their houses, they had to step in there, didn't they,

even for a short fix? I don't think so. I think we're beyond short

fixes. This is what the western world is up against, its business

model is unsustainable. I don't agrow with Abbott on a lot, as she

- agree with First Orbit object on a lot, as thee would agree. - Diane

Abbott a lot, as she would agree. But the heart of it is people have

to have a stake in society, in Greece, in Germany, here,

increasingly in the United States, too many people don't. You were the

man who was all for no regulation, and look where no regulation got us

with the banks, and sub-prime mortgages, people buying houses

they couldn't afford, the American dream? The sub-prime mortgage was

invented by Government. The United States Government decided that

banks could no longer make rational calculation of risk, it destroyed

two of the bedrocks of free societies, the property market,

there is about twice as many three bedroom homes as anyone needs in

America, and the banking system. Those are two of the pillars of a

free society. Are you really saying that things are no fragile that

America might fail? I think so, I think by 2015, when you have US

tax-payers simply through the interest on the debt, funding the

entire cost of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, there is no

precedent for that. No precedent for that. You, I always think, are

the person who is the big defender of western civilisation and you

have turned turtle? I'm saying I don't want to slide off the cliff,

but we are hanging by our fingernails, and to get back on

solid ground...I think this is not just as when Britain went to

America, this is a profound civilisational shift such as we

have not seen in centuries. Do you believe that Islamic civilisation,

Indian civilisation, Chinese civilisation could teach as you lot

about the way to live? No, I think we are looking at a world where you

will have an economically strong China, a demo graphically strong

Islam, sharing in not a lot of the world wealth. The packs- America

and packs-British exchange was smooth. Here we would have no world

order. What about the rule of law and rule of democracy? I like that,

what is fascinating about watching the fellas in your film about

Manchester, where is the rule of law and democracy, the regional

powers anywhere round the planet, Canada, South Africa, India,

Australia, what do those countries have in common, how come people on

the streets of Manchester don't know that. Thank you very much

indeed. Just tomorrow morning's front pages,

the Telegraph, new EU job rights That's all from Newsnight tonight.

Tomorrow night Paul Mason will be here. It is seven years since Alex

Ferguson gave the BBC his hair dryer treatment and refused to

speak to us, good news, the parties have kissed and made up, for now,

any way. Good night.

# I hold no grudge # There's no resentment on me

# I'll extend the Laurel wreath # And we'll be friends

Hello, more heavy rain is arriving, it will be a wet day, particularly

across eastern England on Friday. Elsewhere, spells of sunshine,

there will also be showers. Particularly soggy in eastern

England, the rain working its way up through the North Sea. Miserable

conditions on the beaches of north- east England, temperatures 15-16

Celsius. Some of the rain across into the Midlands, wet in East

Anglia, the south-east may brighten up, more showers drifting in off

the channel across the southern most counties of England. Sunny

spells and scattered showers, in Wales, like today, some of the

showers will be powerful. With the risk of a thunderstorm developing

almost anywhere. Temperatures high teens at best, a sprinkling of

showers in Northern Ireland. There should be some sunshine here. It

may just start a little bit foggy, a scattering of showers also across

Scotland. A chance here of some places staying dry. It is not the

last. We are expecting the wet weather in eastern England to

transfer northwards, it looks like being a very wet and windy Saturday

across a good part of Scotland. Gales or severe gale, especially on

the north coast. Further south the weather will remain mixed on

Saturday. Some sunshine, but there will also be showers. Wherever you

are there will be a brisk breeze, blowing. Bringing the showers