25/08/2011 Newsnight


Donal MacIntyre talks to young men who took part in the recent Manchester riots, who revel in the memories of the time when they made the streets their own. With Kirsty Wark.

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Tonight, Newsnight take us to the core of the riots that have


horrified us all, and why they happened. In a shocking report on


the violence in Manchester, Newsnight discovers young men with


no remorse for the damage they have inflicted on their own city and


their own neighbours. Something to tell the grand kids. Something to


tell the kids when I'm older. When I go back into town I will think


the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.Ly Speak to a friend of


all those men, an oner in of the shop that got smashed to Smith


reens, and Diane Abbott. Can any blame lay with unemployment. Much


of the employment taken is taken by eastern European, hungry for work.


The hunt for Colonel Gaddafi, did the take Tateor escape through


these tunnels under - dictator escape through these tunnels under


the compound. It is difficult for the rebels to


operate in Tripoli, but the sooner they can get there and establish


their own authority there the betterment


We hear from the prominent writer, John Steinbeck John Steyn, who once


thought the United States was teflon-coated, but now believes


their time may be up. The courts are dealing with the


mayhem and criminality that beset London and other cities two weeks


ago, the aftermath is still traumatic. In Manchester and


Salford, 20 police officers were injured, 150 fires were started,


four of them had fire crews attacked and they had to stop. 100


shops and premises were looted and smashed up. The charges included


recklessly endangering life, assaulting a police officer,


burglary and criminal damage. Mancunians could not believe the


extraordinary scenes of violence and destruction in their much loved


city, neither could the rest of us. The debate is still raging why


about the riots happened, and why the criminals relished the


destruction. The police officers in charge of the CCTV for the Arndale


Centre, called the perpetrators feral rats.


Everything just started escalating. People just starting coming out of


everywhere. On Bebo, Twitter. on Twitter, sent a message, get


down to Manchester. People going absolutely crazy. I was buzzing,


smashing windows and police cars and stuff.


There was nothing that the police could do, there was an overwhelming


sense of power. On the night of August 2011, the mob took control


of the centre of one of England's biggest cities. This is their story.


Two weeks on from the violence that consumed Manchester, Britain is


still coming to terms with how quickly civil society broke down up


and down the country. Who were the rioters, who were the looters and


where did they come from. We came to Manchester to find out.


Salford, the district where the trouble first ignited. Jamie


Darrington told us everyone was watching what was happening in


London. That a distinct sense of unease had been building Australian


morning. Everything started escalating, people just started


coming out of everywhere, shops, culling out of their homes, hoods


up. People running up the subway, smashing bottle, look at the state


of it down there already. That is couple of weeks afterwards. You


have people trying to rip shutters off Tesco and somewhere, chemists


getting broken into. Everything, just every little business really.


Who was doing it? Everyone who was round here.


Jamie watched in amazement as hundreds of men, women and children,


descended on the shopping precinct, many setting out on a path of


destruction. Jamie received message after


message, asking him to join in. He didn't. Police were attacked, as


was a cameraman, making this recording.


Send a message out on Facebook, Twitter, send a message out on


whatever social networking site, BBM, just normal text messages,


group together, let's go rob a shop, let's go rob Tesco. When we say


everybody was doing it. Are you talking about mothers and fathers,


and uncles, saying ...I'm Talking about families pulling up in cars,


and filling the car boots with food, and whatever they can take. But the


majority of the people were 14-25- year-old, running around, hoods up,


mass en masse, going crazy. There was no sense of race involved, this


is a predominantly white area? majority of it was white people.


There weren't any black people who were round here rioting, the odd


few, but it was white people. why were they doing it? Was it


anger, poverty, just day out? poverty, because they could.


Greater Manchester Police drafted officers from all over the city to


combat the violence in Salford. Drivers panicked as they tried to


escape the anarchy. It took police nearly four hours to stablise the


situation. The trouble here sucked in a huge amount of police


resources and numbers, leaving the centre of Manchester very


vulnerable. It wasn't long before people took advantage, and the


anarchy spread like wild fire. Two miles away, crowds began


gathering in Manchester's Picadilly gardens, trouble seemed inevitable.


Everyone we spoke to emphasised how rioters used their phones to


connect in advance of the disorder. Go out, get on the phone, get on


Facebook, send a message, get down to man chester, send to every


contact in your phone book. That is how it happened really. There is no


way that amount of people got down here that fast. At 5.20 it arrived.


People stormed up Market Street, forcing shoppers and commuters to


run for cover. The Arndale Centre, the commercial Jew we will in the


city's crown came under siege, and the police just managed to push


them back. The mob, by now, including children, was thousands


strong. They broke into shops, attacked cars and targeted police.


Fire engines drove past arsonistings, looters flaunted


their stolen good, in front of lines of policemen. The


extraordinary and unpalatable truth, is for 12 hours one of the


country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and


out of control. Cody Lachey was caught up in the


French circumstance an ex-soldier, he served two tours in Afghanistan.


I have seen a lot of stuff in my life, from being in the army. I


have never seen anything like that night, in the war there is rulings,


there was no rules, get what you can take. If it is not literally


tied down, take it. He says he didn't loot, he admits he was part


of the mob. People were running in every different direction, people


were running in and way, different directions, people with handfuls of


stuff, people with TV, bags, dragging suitcases they had looted.


It was mental, carnage, complete and utter carnage. You were


surrounded by looters, some were your mates? Of course, yeah.


were saying it was so lawless that looters were presenting and


taunting police officers with the stolen goods? Normally, any other


day, they would run away. But that day there was that many of them,


the police didn't have the power, the people had the power, and the


people were turning up to the police and saying listen this is


what I have got. People standing there with bottles of vodka, and


with beers, and saying fuck off, saying what are you going to


fucking do. There was nothing the police could do. It was an


overwhelming sense of power. asked him to take us to some of his


friends who took part in the looting, so we could find out what


happened and challenge them on whether they felt responsible for


their actions. It was just part of a big mob. It was just, I know,


just cause as much trouble as you can. Who organised it, was it a


collective, a community? It was all of it, it was on Facebook. Loads of


kids getting together, it has come together. If it wasn't for Facebook,


the blackberry. Anything with an attack line, Bebo, twittwiter, it


got to that, all went round. Everyone has got together in town,


and it has kicked off. A load of kids got together. It was a lot


better than sex or better than anything. You can't describe it,


because you were in the atmosphere, and you knew it might not happen


again, so you could just do it then and get away with it. I was just


chilling, first. I heard the windows go through, I put my hood


up, bally on, and went through to the shops. Everyone shop got taken


out, I decided to join in, get what I want. What did you get? I got a


TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes, that's it. With the door


open, windows smashed, or did you smash them? Ripped the shutters off,


got in. Took some stuff out of it. How did that make you feel? How did


that make me feel? I was buzzing, just smashing windows and police


cars and stuff. It must have felt very commanding and powerful that


you could smash a window, grab a TV and know you could walk past a


policeman and nothing would happen? There was too many of us, they


wouldn't have just jumped one of them the police would have got


jumped on. Walking off with a TV, it is not just one of you, it is a


big group walk ago I way with TV, you know they will not stop you.


Did you walk past a group of police officers with TVs in your hands?


Yes. People were brazen, people are very brazen, people without masks


and ballies on running out of shops. That night, it was like you were


invincible. We will remember this. Something to tell the grand kids.


Something to tell the kids when I'm older. Every time I go back into


town I will think the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.


Laugh about it every time I go back in there.


There was no concern for the victims. I asked whether they felt


they were part of society? Do you feel as if you are disenfranchised


is the phrase, that you don't have a stake in society? It was a main


factor. You could do anything to get more money, won't you. And


other people have got money. So, why can't we. For all the poverty


and all your background, do you take responsibility for your own


actions? Yeah. You take responsibility for your actions?


want to say no, I didn't have to do it, but I thought I would do it.


was your choice and your responsibility? Yeah. Do you think


the police will catch either of you? No. No. No. They have nothing


on me that they can find on me, everything is sold and gone.


This estate is in Wythenshawe, eight miles south of Manchester,


where hundreds jumped on bus, got lifts in cars and even walked into


the city centre to join in the chaos.


These young men admit to being there that night, but deny engaging


in any lawlessness. Over here then. Who was down there in Manchester?


Everyone. What did you do? didn't join in, we just watched it.


We're not looters, we're not tramps. Tell me what happened, I wasn't


there? There was people running at the police. At the end of the day


getting their own back, innit. is also the very place where David


Cameron came in 2007, to talk about the broken society. And where his


photo opportunity was memorably ambushed by a local hoodie, Ryan


Florence. Now David Cameron has said that pockets of society are


not just broken, but sick. The Prime Minister says you guys, you


represent the broken society, you know. Is society broken? No shit


mate. Once you gets off his arse and gets around the estate like you,


talking to us, instead of slagging us off and giving a us a bad name,


until then, tell him to fuck right off. He was down here in 2007.


know, Florence. He says you don't know values or the difference


between right and wrong, he says this because you do it from you are


from dysfunctional families, and dad isn't around. What does your


dad think about you being involved in some of the axe youiveties that


hit the screens - activities that you hit the screens, the looting?


Got a new TV, sweet. When they parents aren't controlling the


kids? My mum and dad are strict people, they couldn't stop me doing


what I was doing. Serious, they tried their hardest. It is not


about the parents, it is about the kids wanting to do it, do you know


what I mean. If your son wanted to burgle a house, what could you do


to stop him, nothing really. If I say, you are filming me, it is all


good. If you tell me, how could, if the parents, if you weren't


listening to your parents, is that you have no respect for your


parents? It is not that I have no respect. It is a different day and


age, they were growing up in the old school, it is a different day


and age now. You think that you guys are growing up quicker?


don't grow up, oh dear me, you have to grow up fast. Getting money to


get drugs mate. Is that too many adults on drugs or kids? Everyone,


mate. If you are going to distill parts


of what they said comes back to the old sense of depravation, drugs,


criminality. But it is interesting that one of the guys said that the


parents were strict, that they tried to keep him in check, and it


didn't work, because kids are becoming adults an awful lot


quicker. For many I spoke to, the riots were


about power, about an opportunity to challenge the rule of law, and


about excitement. There was no remorse, many of these


young men weighed up their options and the consequences and decided


they had nothing to lose. Joining me now in the studio is


Cody Lachey, who you saw in that film. Ain Kinsella, whose shop in


central Manchester was looted during the riots, and the Labour MP


for Hackney, Abbott. You had a highend television shop, when you


hear the way the boys were talking in the film, no remorse, what do


you think? Terrible, the society is what it is. Those guys basically


started off before the riots, as they were, and they are still the


now. It is whether or not we can control them going forward. What


happened when you got to your shop? When I got to the store, basically


the store was destroyed inside, and the window was put through. The


grill was mangled. I stood at the front of the shop, and I was


approached by numerous people who just looked like those people there,


asking could they come into the store and take some more stuff


while I was stood there. I tried to persuade them against it, until I


was chased off by people dressed like that. On what basis did they


think you wouldn't mind? Because it was free, everything was free and


there was no rules. What about insurance? You're sured maid mate,


you will be OK. I may be insured, but - You're insured mate, it will


be OK. I may be surety but still. Everybody is disgusted watching


that? It was terrifying, I had no control over this mob that kept


approaching. You said yourself in the film, that you were down there


to be part of the mob, when you got there you decided not to loot?


dressed a certain way when I left the house as to be inconspicuous to


join in with the crowd. When you hear this story, are you not


absolutely ashamed of everybody's actions? I'm a very proud Mancunian,


very proud, but people...You Didn't mind seeing shops smashed to


smitherens? People do what they have to do to survive. This night,


in Ian's words, you could take what you want. It was lawless Manchester,


the police were there, to do nothing else but to maintain what


was going on. Fought for Queen and country, twice in Afghanistan, you


did a tour in Bosnia, you have also been a security guard for many


different shops in the city, including Selfridges, why don't you


turn in those looters? Because I understand, some people, what


happened that night, people did off their own backs, everyone knows


right from wrong and people made their own actions. We live in an


impoverished society, where people do what they have to do to feed


themselves and their families, that is the life we live in. You hear


people in the film, your friends, saying it is something to tell the


grand kids? I said that. Did you say it in what way? I said it in a


sense, there was no a sense of overwhelming power against the


authorities, you couldn't be touched. It was nice for the people


that have got nothing to have that power. What do you think when he


says it was something to tell the grand kids that is a night of


power? Something to tell the grandchildren maybe, mine will hear


a different story. The amount of power that these people have, I


agree, they have the power, the police were there trying to control


them in a very limited way. It was a different kind of riot that they


have never been trained for, quite frankly, which is why they couldn't


control it in London, Birmingham or Manchester. They couldn't control


the way that this riot developed and the way it literally evolved in


front of them. Because they were not there in Manchester to confront


the police on an issue, they were there just to cause mayhem and


destruction. As soon as the police turned up they ran away and did it


somewhere else. The police had to chase them to another area. We all


know about social media and the role it had to play. When you saw


people looting in shops, it is not a picture of someone looting, there


is an owner this that shop, people with jobs, you probably knew some


of the shopkeepers? It is a double- edged sword for me. People went out


that night to take what they could get. People struggle and do what


they have to do to feed themselves and the families, that is the


society we live in. 99% of the population does that without


criminality? With respect, the people that came into my store, the


majority of equipment that was damaged in my store, wasn't taken,


it was smashed. There wasn't the need to smash a speaker to feed a


family. Diane Abbott, people will be horrified to hear this


conversation when people had no remorse whatsoever? Well, horrified.


What you saw in Manchester was the mentality of the mob, although that


is a scary film, that is not something new. Before I came out I


was reading about medieval riots in London, 1,000 people smashing


everything, 13 of them got hanged. The Gordon riots in the 18th


century. That doesn't excuse this? I'm not saying that. There is


something about the mentality of the mob. People, you know, people


get fuelled by it. It is like football hooligans, I'm not giving


them the excuse, I'm saying you have to understand it, and the mob


makes people feel empowered, and periodically, every century, even,


a city like London will have frightening riots, it is not new.


That's my point. That is his he troo, let's say, - history, is it


not disgusting that nobody in that film expressed remorse? They don't


have any social contract with society rightly or wrongly. That is


why they don't express remorse, they don't feel they have a stake


in society, that is why they don't express remorse. Let's be clear


they are not the whole of the young people in Manchester or a fraction


of the young people in Manchester. No, but a pretty destructive group?


There is a danger of demonising all young people seeing a film like.


That they don't have a stake in society. What can be done? We need


to win back control of the streets, we kind have done, it rained,


people don't come out in the rain. Secondly, some how you have, Cody


is the one to say, what could politicians do to make young men


like that think they had any stake in society? Right, just from our


perspective, I have grown up in the same society, my mum and dad taught


me right from wrong, people make their own decisions, come hell or


high water. We look at MPs, look at the expenses scandal, right, if


these people that are running the country and have a say in society


are cutting corners and doing the taxpayer out of money, how can they


point the finger at us who have nothing and belittle us. What


should we do, that's what I need to know. Ian is something who has


suffered that? I can't take that as an argument, with the greatest will


in the world, the MPs doing what they did with expenses. Stealing is


stealing. I have no objective to, that they have gone and suffered


for it. With the greatest will in the world, it doesn't excuse the


mob mentality, unfortunately the mob mentality took over the city


that night, if they carried on, I said this on camera on the nigh f


they carried on the following night, without the rain, there would have


been nothing left. If I can ask you before we finish, you know these


people and you talk to them, could this happen again? Very easily.


This wasn't orchestrated, if this was orchestrated, places like


Selfridge, an affluent shop, some of the watches worth hundreds of


thousands of pounds, if it was orchestrated they were the shops


that would have gone first. The police are talking about cutting


numbers. The police couldn't maintain that many people f it was


orchestrated and more people came the police couldn't do anything


about it. Could it happen again? could, but there is way of


controlling it. It is literally, it is read the riot act, use their


media against them, send them a text, send them on Bebo and


Facebook, if you are in the city centre, intending to riot, you will


then have a curfew. That is not strong enough. We have to go beyond


that to the whole issue of jobs and education. But the long-term needs


different answers. We've got no prospects, that is why people do


what they do they have no prospects, no jobs, no nothing, that is why


they struggle. Indeed, one of the solutions the Government identified


in the aftermath of the riots improving the employment prospects


for disaffected young people. Workers from Eastern Europe still


believe there is a market for their skills in Britain. During the last


week, David Cameron promised a reduced net immigration to this


country in the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds of


thousands. But last year it was up 21% on the year before. Where does


it leave the Prime Minister's pledge, and their plans to get more


people into work. Immigration is simply too high at


the moment. If you look at what's happening


with immigration, the difference between what's happening with


people going to live overseas and those here, it is often as high as


200,000, I want to us bring immigration down so it is in the


tens of thousands, not the hundreds of thousands.


Ed Miliband's response to that election promise was to say he


wouldn't match it, because he didn't think David Cameron could


deliver on it. So what must the Prime Minister be thinking today?


On his watch, net migration has risen to 240,000, that's an


increase of 4%. For a Government which made immigration one of its


top priorities, that is a problem, not just from the opposition


benches. It shows the task of getting immigration, or net


immigration down to tens of thousands is going to be a


difficult one. And we'll have to make a lot of choices which will be


controversial. We may have to go further than the policies already


announced. We could well follow the Scandinavians and have a much


higher age for people coming here for marriage, and that would reduce


the use of marriage as a proxy for immigration rights. And it's not


just net migration that's making problems for the Government, it is


who is getting a job. The latest official figures show more than


two-thirds of all extra jobs created last year went to foreign


nationals. The picture is complicated. Every year a very


large number of jobs are disappearing, and an equally large


number, or you hope in good times, and an even larger number is


created. Of that the total number of jobs changing hands in the


economy, about 85% go to people here, only 10-15% go to foreigners.


It is true to say of the extra jobs created, the net difference between


one that is were just replacing other jobs that disappeared, or the


extra, a large proportion of it is made up by people coming into the


country, not having a job before, and now they are getting a job in


Britain for the first time. Another survey of employers, out this week,


gives cause for concern. In 2010, a third of employers were prepared to


hire British 17 and 18-year-olds, now only a quarter are look to go


do so. That is the same proportion that want to employ foreign workers


from the EU, a record high and in direct response to the Government's


cap on non-EU immigration. The real challenge for the


Government is not to talk about reducing immigration from outside


the EU, hoping that will make employers turn to young people


already here, because the evidence shows that is not happening, they


will turn to people from inside the EU, to Eastern Europe, with numbers


are rising. The challenge is to look at skills, vocational training,


apprenticeships for young people and try to get them more attracted


to employment. Today's figures show a huge rise in net migration of


workers like these, from Eastern Europe, up to 39,000 from just


5,000 last year. The other big factor is a steep drop in people


emigrating from the UK. We can't control people who have the right


to move within the EU. Certainly and obviously no Government should


try to control the emigration of its own citizens, what it is


sensible for Governments to do is control what it can control, which


is people coming here from outside the EU. Just last week the office


of national statistics said 35% of all new extra shops are going to


foreign nationals, why is that happening? In various sectors this


country has become addicted to immigration, and like weaning


anyone off an addiction, it requires time, and it requires


patience, and it requires perseverance. That is what we are


doing. We need a better balanced immigration system, we need lower


immigration into this country, we also need a better skilled work


force. But the Home Office says there are no plans to change the


Prime Minister's ambitious target for reducing migration. No, none at


all, it is very important that we get immigration at a sustainable


level, not just for our economy, but also the wider health of


society. If people have confidence in the immigration system, some of


the social stresss and strains we have seen in recent years go away.


It is still a vote-winning message, but the reality is last year, the


number of people moving to the UK, was the same as the population of


Stoke-on-Trent. That's under a Conservative-led Government. To


keep their supporters on side, they will have to do more than hope for


better figures next year. As we came on air, there were


reports that the fledgling Libyan Government has announced it is


moving to Tripoli, but that doesn't seem to be their only concern.


Yesterday the head of the Libyan transitional council was in Paris,


and today in Istanbul, everywhere, asking for money. It seems to have


paid off, Italy agreed to release $500 million in frozen assets, and


a deal was reached with the UN to release billions of funds. We're in


Benghazi where the Government in waiting is still there. Any news of


the rebels move to Tripoli? Several ministers have already moved to


Tripoli. Others are expected to follow shortly. But the head of the


transitional council, Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, most people think he


won't follow for some days, at the very least. Basically, there are


still considerable security concerns, and obviously members of


the council are very obvious targets for Gaddafi loyalists. The


problem is to balance the security considerations against the danger


of creating a political vacuum, in Tripoli. Really they need an


inclusive Government in control, in Tripoli, as soon as possible. I


think whatever happens there is bound to be very robust political


jockeying for positions in Tripoli in the weeks to come. We have just


heard about the UN deal on relosing assets, how badly does the National


Transitional Council need money? Basically, it is a liquidity


problem a shortage of physical cash. In towns which have been besieged


for a long time, like Misrata, people haven't had wages for months


and months, even here in the east, where there hasn't been much


fighting for months, people are getting a fraction of their


salaries, or only intermittently. This isn't just an economic problem,


but a political problem. People are saying they fought so hard for


victory over Gaddafi, they want to see the economic fruits of that.


The other thing talked about here is the return of the Lockerbie


bomber, Al-Megrahi, there has been calls for his return. What are


people saying there? This is a very interesting question. Obviously Al-


Megrahi was released to come back here, two years ago, on the basis


that he was about to die. He is still alive. But, on the other hand,


of course, this was a decision very spesif clo of the Scottish


Executive, it would be - specifically, of the Scottish


Executive, they would have to ask for them back. It would be their


First Minister, Alex Salmond admitting they made a mistake. In


practice demands for Al-Megrahi to to be returned are more likity to


come from the United States. We know - likely to come from the


United States. We know American politicians were very unhappy about


his release. When it will happen, it is too early to say. Earlier


this evening I spoke to the Foreign Secretary, William Hague. How much


of a problem is gad being at large and the fighting still going on, in


terms of trying to create stable society and a Government? It is one


of the important things, to bring him to justice. One of several


important things, of course, also to bring more order and security to


be established in Tripoli, for the National Transitional Council to


have access to more funds. What happens to Gaddafi is one very


important component. How much are the special forces from the US,


France and Britain able to help on this? We don't comment on the


special forces, for good reason, if we talk about them we will endanger


them, we don't do that. At the moment there are reports of


atrocities on both sides coming through. How important is it there


isn't a power vacuum, and the transitional council gets to


Tripoli? It is very important, we are encouraging them to do, that


they have done a good job so far. They have done a good job in other


parts of the country. I was impress bid them in Benghazi. It is


difficult for them to operate in Tripoli, the sooner they can get


there and establish their own administrative authority there, the


better. Do you think they should be there, despite the fighting? They


should get there as quickly as possible, we are actively enCo


Couraging them to do that. - Encouraging them to do that as soon


as possible. Will there be diplomats to help them get a civil


society together? There will be shirts on the ground most


definitely. We have a strong team in Benghazi, we have already had an


international stablisation team, giving advice to the National


Transitional Council. We can help them with advice on policing,


clearing land mine, and with �20 million of immediate assistance we


have set aside. There is an awful lot of money not in the country


that will be needed. Most things that need to be done, wages paid,


roads rebuilt, that is the sort of thing that the transitional council


will need if they are going to secure authority for themselves.


Can you get money there now? have made a good start on this,


yesterday South Africa was the remaining reluctant country, and


agreed to the release of $500 million of assets in the United


States. We want a further $1 billion of dollars to be released,


there are tens of billions of dollars that belong to the Libyan


state, that need to be returned to them in managed way, that guards


against any misaproper racial of those assets. That is one of the


things we will be discussing at the UN over the next week and the Paris


conference, which the Prime Minister and President Sarkozy will


co-chair a week from now. worried are you about an implosion


that there will be mayhem and lawlessness, which seems to be


rising up now? We should always be concerned about any chaotic


situation. But, of course, there have been concerns all the way


along. People said we couldn't get a resolution, then we couldn't


enforce a no-fly zone, a permanent stalemate, now the concern is will


there be a situation that is too chaotic for too long in Tripoli.


That is why we are doing all these things to try to release the funds


and get the National Transitional Council there, and get more


international recognition for them, so the people of Libya can see


there has been a fundamental change. Are you going to demand the return


of Al-Megrahi from the transitional council, while they are in power?


This is a matter for the Scottish ministers, as you know, they took


the decision to release them, the Prime Minister and I were in


opposition at the time, we strongly disapproved of the decision. I said


earlier this week, if I was a Scottish minister I would look at


this again, and review it to see what I could do. If they want, if


in Scotland they want the active support of the UK Government in


seeking information about him and supporting any representations they


want to make about him, they will get energetic support. Finally on


Syria, there is not even support for a sanctions resolution, but if


there is, soon, a democracy in Libya, if things calm down, will


that embolden the UN, and David Cameron to suggest that actually


there should be a similar action in Syria? Syria is a different case.


In Libya we have acted with full legal and international authority,


and strong support from within the region. Syria clearly is in a


different category in that sense. The pressure that we can afly on


Syria - apply on Syria is different in nature. If we want to stay


within the international law. Libya the idea was to protect


civilian, civilians are in trouble in Syria? That's right, but it is


also important we act with full legal and international authority.


What we are doing is steadily ramping up the sanctions on Syria,


we announced additional sanctions alongside the US this week, and


more EU sangss coming up this week. The message will go out, as Libya


embraces a free, democratic and inclusive future, that tyrants or


authoritarian rulers cannot stand permanently against the wishes of


their population, to have a free future.


As America faces the prospect of borrowing $125 billion every month,


just to patient bills. What does the future really hold for the


superpower. The writer Mark Steyn see as post apocalyptic situation,


and Armageddon. Here is where he thinks Uncle Sam is heading. It is


the Apocalypse Soon thesis, the idea that the time of America's


economic domination is over, and others, like China are set to fill


their shoes. After predicting the collapse of the rest of the western


world in his first book, America Alone, he argues in After America,


that the rush for self-destruction has hit America. It is his aspirin


against the drunkle sailor policies in Washington. He starts with the


money, Obama's non-stimulating stimulus, impending financial


collapse, before lambasting the whom culture in America, the shift


away from the can-do spirit, to the can-do with some Government


spending spirit. It is the kids picking up the check after the old


timers' almighty bender. Live free or die, from 1,000 soothing


caresses of the nanny state is the mantra to the young. Steyn's mantra


is strip way Government, decentralise, demonopolise,


decredentialise, anything to force the status out of our pockets and


out of our lives. But he's clear that the fall will not be pretty,


and not be gradue. His forecast predicts a slide within - gradual,


his forecast predictss a slide within the next ten years. He


thinks the US is big enough to fail, and heading towards being the next


empire to shop until it drops, literally. The bubble about to pop


isn't the property market or cheap credit, it is the US of the 21st


century itself. The author joins me now. Do you


think that America is in a worse position than Europe? I think so,


if only because the sums of money are so much greater. I mean, when a


multitrillion dollar disaster slides off the cliff it lands with


a much bigger thud than Iceland and Portugal. But America is richer and


bigger to withstand it? I don't think, I think you can do the debt


to GDP comparisons, in the end, here the hard money sums are so


hugement we are talking about America depending on the rest of


the planet being willing to sink 20% of its entire GDP into US


Treasury debt by 2020, that is astonishing Are you really


suggesting that western civilisation is over? Basically


yeah. I think it gets back to what you were talking about earlier. I


think the downgraded credit rating in America, and the downgraded


human capital on the streets of Manchester, we saw earlier, are


actually part of the same story. The really evil thing about big


Government is not just the waste of money, but the waste of people.


if big Government hadn't stepped in America in 2008, the ATMs would


have had no money in them, people wouldn't just lose their houses but


loot anything their houses, they had to step in there, didn't they,


even for a short fix? I don't think so. I think we're beyond short


fixes. This is what the western world is up against, its business


model is unsustainable. I don't agrow with Abbott on a lot, as she


- agree with First Orbit object on a lot, as thee would agree. - Diane


Abbott a lot, as she would agree. But the heart of it is people have


to have a stake in society, in Greece, in Germany, here,


increasingly in the United States, too many people don't. You were the


man who was all for no regulation, and look where no regulation got us


with the banks, and sub-prime mortgages, people buying houses


they couldn't afford, the American dream? The sub-prime mortgage was


invented by Government. The United States Government decided that


banks could no longer make rational calculation of risk, it destroyed


two of the bedrocks of free societies, the property market,


there is about twice as many three bedroom homes as anyone needs in


America, and the banking system. Those are two of the pillars of a


free society. Are you really saying that things are no fragile that


America might fail? I think so, I think by 2015, when you have US


tax-payers simply through the interest on the debt, funding the


entire cost of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, there is no


precedent for that. No precedent for that. You, I always think, are


the person who is the big defender of western civilisation and you


have turned turtle? I'm saying I don't want to slide off the cliff,


but we are hanging by our fingernails, and to get back on


solid ground...I think this is not just as when Britain went to


America, this is a profound civilisational shift such as we


have not seen in centuries. Do you believe that Islamic civilisation,


Indian civilisation, Chinese civilisation could teach as you lot


about the way to live? No, I think we are looking at a world where you


will have an economically strong China, a demo graphically strong


Islam, sharing in not a lot of the world wealth. The packs- America


and packs-British exchange was smooth. Here we would have no world


order. What about the rule of law and rule of democracy? I like that,


what is fascinating about watching the fellas in your film about


Manchester, where is the rule of law and democracy, the regional


powers anywhere round the planet, Canada, South Africa, India,


Australia, what do those countries have in common, how come people on


the streets of Manchester don't know that. Thank you very much


indeed. Just tomorrow morning's front pages,


the Telegraph, new EU job rights That's all from Newsnight tonight.


Tomorrow night Paul Mason will be here. It is seven years since Alex


Ferguson gave the BBC his hair dryer treatment and refused to


speak to us, good news, the parties have kissed and made up, for now,


any way. Good night.


# I hold no grudge # There's no resentment on me


# I'll extend the Laurel wreath # And we'll be friends


Hello, more heavy rain is arriving, it will be a wet day, particularly


across eastern England on Friday. Elsewhere, spells of sunshine,


there will also be showers. Particularly soggy in eastern


England, the rain working its way up through the North Sea. Miserable


conditions on the beaches of north- east England, temperatures 15-16


Celsius. Some of the rain across into the Midlands, wet in East


Anglia, the south-east may brighten up, more showers drifting in off


the channel across the southern most counties of England. Sunny


spells and scattered showers, in Wales, like today, some of the


showers will be powerful. With the risk of a thunderstorm developing


almost anywhere. Temperatures high teens at best, a sprinkling of


showers in Northern Ireland. There should be some sunshine here. It


may just start a little bit foggy, a scattering of showers also across


Scotland. A chance here of some places staying dry. It is not the


last. We are expecting the wet weather in eastern England to


transfer northwards, it looks like being a very wet and windy Saturday


across a good part of Scotland. Gales or severe gale, especially on


the north coast. Further south the weather will remain mixed on


Saturday. Some sunshine, but there will also be showers. Wherever you


are there will be a brisk breeze, blowing. Bringing the showers


Donal MacIntyre talks to young men who took part in the recent Manchester riots. He finds them revelling in the memories of the time when they overturned the rule of law and made the streets their own. Presented by Kirsty Wark.