25/08/2011 Newsnight


25/08/2011

Donal MacIntyre talks to young men who took part in the recent Manchester riots, who revel in the memories of the time when they made the streets their own. With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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Tonight, Newsnight take us to the core of the riots that have

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horrified us all, and why they happened. In a shocking report on

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the violence in Manchester, Newsnight discovers young men with

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no remorse for the damage they have inflicted on their own city and

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their own neighbours. Something to tell the grand kids. Something to

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tell the kids when I'm older. When I go back into town I will think

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the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.Ly Speak to a friend of

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all those men, an oner in of the shop that got smashed to Smith

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reens, and Diane Abbott. Can any blame lay with unemployment. Much

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of the employment taken is taken by eastern European, hungry for work.

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The hunt for Colonel Gaddafi, did the take Tateor escape through

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these tunnels under - dictator escape through these tunnels under

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the compound. It is difficult for the rebels to

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operate in Tripoli, but the sooner they can get there and establish

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their own authority there the betterment

:01:08.:01:18.
:01:18.:01:20.

We hear from the prominent writer, John Steinbeck John Steyn, who once

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thought the United States was teflon-coated, but now believes

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their time may be up. The courts are dealing with the

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mayhem and criminality that beset London and other cities two weeks

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ago, the aftermath is still traumatic. In Manchester and

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Salford, 20 police officers were injured, 150 fires were started,

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four of them had fire crews attacked and they had to stop. 100

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shops and premises were looted and smashed up. The charges included

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recklessly endangering life, assaulting a police officer,

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burglary and criminal damage. Mancunians could not believe the

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extraordinary scenes of violence and destruction in their much loved

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city, neither could the rest of us. The debate is still raging why

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about the riots happened, and why the criminals relished the

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destruction. The police officers in charge of the CCTV for the Arndale

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Centre, called the perpetrators feral rats.

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Everything just started escalating. People just starting coming out of

:02:33.:02:43.
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everywhere. On Bebo, Twitter. on Twitter, sent a message, get

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down to Manchester. People going absolutely crazy. I was buzzing,

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smashing windows and police cars and stuff.

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There was nothing that the police could do, there was an overwhelming

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sense of power. On the night of August 2011, the mob took control

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of the centre of one of England's biggest cities. This is their story.

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Two weeks on from the violence that consumed Manchester, Britain is

:03:18.:03:22.

still coming to terms with how quickly civil society broke down up

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and down the country. Who were the rioters, who were the looters and

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where did they come from. We came to Manchester to find out.

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Salford, the district where the trouble first ignited. Jamie

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Darrington told us everyone was watching what was happening in

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London. That a distinct sense of unease had been building Australian

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morning. Everything started escalating, people just started

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coming out of everywhere, shops, culling out of their homes, hoods

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up. People running up the subway, smashing bottle, look at the state

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of it down there already. That is couple of weeks afterwards. You

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have people trying to rip shutters off Tesco and somewhere, chemists

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getting broken into. Everything, just every little business really.

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Who was doing it? Everyone who was round here.

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Jamie watched in amazement as hundreds of men, women and children,

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descended on the shopping precinct, many setting out on a path of

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destruction. Jamie received message after

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message, asking him to join in. He didn't. Police were attacked, as

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was a cameraman, making this recording.

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Send a message out on Facebook, Twitter, send a message out on

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whatever social networking site, BBM, just normal text messages,

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group together, let's go rob a shop, let's go rob Tesco. When we say

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everybody was doing it. Are you talking about mothers and fathers,

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and uncles, saying ...I'm Talking about families pulling up in cars,

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and filling the car boots with food, and whatever they can take. But the

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majority of the people were 14-25- year-old, running around, hoods up,

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mass en masse, going crazy. There was no sense of race involved, this

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is a predominantly white area? majority of it was white people.

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There weren't any black people who were round here rioting, the odd

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few, but it was white people. why were they doing it? Was it

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anger, poverty, just day out? poverty, because they could.

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Greater Manchester Police drafted officers from all over the city to

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combat the violence in Salford. Drivers panicked as they tried to

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escape the anarchy. It took police nearly four hours to stablise the

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situation. The trouble here sucked in a huge amount of police

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resources and numbers, leaving the centre of Manchester very

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vulnerable. It wasn't long before people took advantage, and the

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anarchy spread like wild fire. Two miles away, crowds began

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gathering in Manchester's Picadilly gardens, trouble seemed inevitable.

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Everyone we spoke to emphasised how rioters used their phones to

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connect in advance of the disorder. Go out, get on the phone, get on

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Facebook, send a message, get down to man chester, send to every

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contact in your phone book. That is how it happened really. There is no

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way that amount of people got down here that fast. At 5.20 it arrived.

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People stormed up Market Street, forcing shoppers and commuters to

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run for cover. The Arndale Centre, the commercial Jew we will in the

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city's crown came under siege, and the police just managed to push

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them back. The mob, by now, including children, was thousands

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strong. They broke into shops, attacked cars and targeted police.

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Fire engines drove past arsonistings, looters flaunted

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their stolen good, in front of lines of policemen. The

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extraordinary and unpalatable truth, is for 12 hours one of the

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country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and

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out of control. Cody Lachey was caught up in the

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French circumstance an ex-soldier, he served two tours in Afghanistan.

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I have seen a lot of stuff in my life, from being in the army. I

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have never seen anything like that night, in the war there is rulings,

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there was no rules, get what you can take. If it is not literally

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tied down, take it. He says he didn't loot, he admits he was part

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of the mob. People were running in every different direction, people

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were running in and way, different directions, people with handfuls of

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stuff, people with TV, bags, dragging suitcases they had looted.

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It was mental, carnage, complete and utter carnage. You were

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surrounded by looters, some were your mates? Of course, yeah.

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were saying it was so lawless that looters were presenting and

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taunting police officers with the stolen goods? Normally, any other

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day, they would run away. But that day there was that many of them,

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the police didn't have the power, the people had the power, and the

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people were turning up to the police and saying listen this is

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what I have got. People standing there with bottles of vodka, and

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with beers, and saying fuck off, saying what are you going to

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fucking do. There was nothing the police could do. It was an

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overwhelming sense of power. asked him to take us to some of his

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friends who took part in the looting, so we could find out what

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happened and challenge them on whether they felt responsible for

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their actions. It was just part of a big mob. It was just, I know,

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just cause as much trouble as you can. Who organised it, was it a

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collective, a community? It was all of it, it was on Facebook. Loads of

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kids getting together, it has come together. If it wasn't for Facebook,

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the blackberry. Anything with an attack line, Bebo, twittwiter, it

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got to that, all went round. Everyone has got together in town,

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and it has kicked off. A load of kids got together. It was a lot

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better than sex or better than anything. You can't describe it,

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because you were in the atmosphere, and you knew it might not happen

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again, so you could just do it then and get away with it. I was just

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chilling, first. I heard the windows go through, I put my hood

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up, bally on, and went through to the shops. Everyone shop got taken

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out, I decided to join in, get what I want. What did you get? I got a

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TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes, that's it. With the door

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open, windows smashed, or did you smash them? Ripped the shutters off,

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got in. Took some stuff out of it. How did that make you feel? How did

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that make me feel? I was buzzing, just smashing windows and police

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cars and stuff. It must have felt very commanding and powerful that

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you could smash a window, grab a TV and know you could walk past a

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policeman and nothing would happen? There was too many of us, they

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wouldn't have just jumped one of them the police would have got

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jumped on. Walking off with a TV, it is not just one of you, it is a

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big group walk ago I way with TV, you know they will not stop you.

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Did you walk past a group of police officers with TVs in your hands?

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Yes. People were brazen, people are very brazen, people without masks

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and ballies on running out of shops. That night, it was like you were

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invincible. We will remember this. Something to tell the grand kids.

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Something to tell the kids when I'm older. Every time I go back into

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town I will think the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.

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Laugh about it every time I go back in there.

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There was no concern for the victims. I asked whether they felt

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they were part of society? Do you feel as if you are disenfranchised

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is the phrase, that you don't have a stake in society? It was a main

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factor. You could do anything to get more money, won't you. And

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other people have got money. So, why can't we. For all the poverty

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and all your background, do you take responsibility for your own

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actions? Yeah. You take responsibility for your actions?

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want to say no, I didn't have to do it, but I thought I would do it.

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was your choice and your responsibility? Yeah. Do you think

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the police will catch either of you? No. No. No. They have nothing

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on me that they can find on me, everything is sold and gone.

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This estate is in Wythenshawe, eight miles south of Manchester,

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where hundreds jumped on bus, got lifts in cars and even walked into

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the city centre to join in the chaos.

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These young men admit to being there that night, but deny engaging

:12:34.:12:44.
:12:44.:12:45.

in any lawlessness. Over here then. Who was down there in Manchester?

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Everyone. What did you do? didn't join in, we just watched it.

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We're not looters, we're not tramps. Tell me what happened, I wasn't

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there? There was people running at the police. At the end of the day

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getting their own back, innit. is also the very place where David

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Cameron came in 2007, to talk about the broken society. And where his

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photo opportunity was memorably ambushed by a local hoodie, Ryan

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Florence. Now David Cameron has said that pockets of society are

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not just broken, but sick. The Prime Minister says you guys, you

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represent the broken society, you know. Is society broken? No shit

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mate. Once you gets off his arse and gets around the estate like you,

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talking to us, instead of slagging us off and giving a us a bad name,

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until then, tell him to fuck right off. He was down here in 2007.

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know, Florence. He says you don't know values or the difference

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between right and wrong, he says this because you do it from you are

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from dysfunctional families, and dad isn't around. What does your

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dad think about you being involved in some of the axe youiveties that

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hit the screens - activities that you hit the screens, the looting?

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Got a new TV, sweet. When they parents aren't controlling the

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kids? My mum and dad are strict people, they couldn't stop me doing

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what I was doing. Serious, they tried their hardest. It is not

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about the parents, it is about the kids wanting to do it, do you know

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what I mean. If your son wanted to burgle a house, what could you do

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to stop him, nothing really. If I say, you are filming me, it is all

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good. If you tell me, how could, if the parents, if you weren't

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listening to your parents, is that you have no respect for your

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parents? It is not that I have no respect. It is a different day and

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age, they were growing up in the old school, it is a different day

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and age now. You think that you guys are growing up quicker?

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don't grow up, oh dear me, you have to grow up fast. Getting money to

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get drugs mate. Is that too many adults on drugs or kids? Everyone,

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mate. If you are going to distill parts

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of what they said comes back to the old sense of depravation, drugs,

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criminality. But it is interesting that one of the guys said that the

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parents were strict, that they tried to keep him in check, and it

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didn't work, because kids are becoming adults an awful lot

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quicker. For many I spoke to, the riots were

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about power, about an opportunity to challenge the rule of law, and

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about excitement. There was no remorse, many of these

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young men weighed up their options and the consequences and decided

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they had nothing to lose. Joining me now in the studio is

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Cody Lachey, who you saw in that film. Ain Kinsella, whose shop in

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central Manchester was looted during the riots, and the Labour MP

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for Hackney, Abbott. You had a highend television shop, when you

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hear the way the boys were talking in the film, no remorse, what do

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you think? Terrible, the society is what it is. Those guys basically

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started off before the riots, as they were, and they are still the

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now. It is whether or not we can control them going forward. What

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happened when you got to your shop? When I got to the store, basically

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the store was destroyed inside, and the window was put through. The

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grill was mangled. I stood at the front of the shop, and I was

:16:41.:16:44.

approached by numerous people who just looked like those people there,

:16:44.:16:50.

asking could they come into the store and take some more stuff

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while I was stood there. I tried to persuade them against it, until I

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was chased off by people dressed like that. On what basis did they

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think you wouldn't mind? Because it was free, everything was free and

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there was no rules. What about insurance? You're sured maid mate,

:17:06.:17:13.

you will be OK. I may be insured, but - You're insured mate, it will

:17:13.:17:17.

be OK. I may be surety but still. Everybody is disgusted watching

:17:17.:17:23.

that? It was terrifying, I had no control over this mob that kept

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approaching. You said yourself in the film, that you were down there

:17:26.:17:31.

to be part of the mob, when you got there you decided not to loot?

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dressed a certain way when I left the house as to be inconspicuous to

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join in with the crowd. When you hear this story, are you not

:17:41.:17:46.

absolutely ashamed of everybody's actions? I'm a very proud Mancunian,

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very proud, but people...You Didn't mind seeing shops smashed to

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smitherens? People do what they have to do to survive. This night,

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in Ian's words, you could take what you want. It was lawless Manchester,

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the police were there, to do nothing else but to maintain what

:18:06.:18:10.

was going on. Fought for Queen and country, twice in Afghanistan, you

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did a tour in Bosnia, you have also been a security guard for many

:18:15.:18:19.

different shops in the city, including Selfridges, why don't you

:18:19.:18:26.

turn in those looters? Because I understand, some people, what

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happened that night, people did off their own backs, everyone knows

:18:30.:18:35.

right from wrong and people made their own actions. We live in an

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impoverished society, where people do what they have to do to feed

:18:37.:18:41.

themselves and their families, that is the life we live in. You hear

:18:41.:18:44.

people in the film, your friends, saying it is something to tell the

:18:44.:18:51.

grand kids? I said that. Did you say it in what way? I said it in a

:18:51.:18:54.

sense, there was no a sense of overwhelming power against the

:18:55.:19:00.

authorities, you couldn't be touched. It was nice for the people

:19:00.:19:04.

that have got nothing to have that power. What do you think when he

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says it was something to tell the grand kids that is a night of

:19:08.:19:11.

power? Something to tell the grandchildren maybe, mine will hear

:19:11.:19:15.

a different story. The amount of power that these people have, I

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agree, they have the power, the police were there trying to control

:19:18.:19:22.

them in a very limited way. It was a different kind of riot that they

:19:22.:19:26.

have never been trained for, quite frankly, which is why they couldn't

:19:26.:19:32.

control it in London, Birmingham or Manchester. They couldn't control

:19:32.:19:35.

the way that this riot developed and the way it literally evolved in

:19:35.:19:40.

front of them. Because they were not there in Manchester to confront

:19:40.:19:44.

the police on an issue, they were there just to cause mayhem and

:19:44.:19:48.

destruction. As soon as the police turned up they ran away and did it

:19:48.:19:52.

somewhere else. The police had to chase them to another area. We all

:19:53.:19:56.

know about social media and the role it had to play. When you saw

:19:56.:20:00.

people looting in shops, it is not a picture of someone looting, there

:20:00.:20:05.

is an owner this that shop, people with jobs, you probably knew some

:20:05.:20:10.

of the shopkeepers? It is a double- edged sword for me. People went out

:20:11.:20:14.

that night to take what they could get. People struggle and do what

:20:14.:20:18.

they have to do to feed themselves and the families, that is the

:20:18.:20:23.

society we live in. 99% of the population does that without

:20:23.:20:27.

criminality? With respect, the people that came into my store, the

:20:27.:20:30.

majority of equipment that was damaged in my store, wasn't taken,

:20:30.:20:36.

it was smashed. There wasn't the need to smash a speaker to feed a

:20:36.:20:40.

family. Diane Abbott, people will be horrified to hear this

:20:40.:20:45.

conversation when people had no remorse whatsoever? Well, horrified.

:20:45.:20:49.

What you saw in Manchester was the mentality of the mob, although that

:20:49.:20:54.

is a scary film, that is not something new. Before I came out I

:20:54.:20:59.

was reading about medieval riots in London, 1,000 people smashing

:20:59.:21:04.

everything, 13 of them got hanged. The Gordon riots in the 18th

:21:04.:21:08.

century. That doesn't excuse this? I'm not saying that. There is

:21:08.:21:11.

something about the mentality of the mob. People, you know, people

:21:11.:21:16.

get fuelled by it. It is like football hooligans, I'm not giving

:21:16.:21:20.

them the excuse, I'm saying you have to understand it, and the mob

:21:20.:21:24.

makes people feel empowered, and periodically, every century, even,

:21:24.:21:29.

a city like London will have frightening riots, it is not new.

:21:29.:21:35.

That's my point. That is his he troo, let's say, - history, is it

:21:35.:21:40.

not disgusting that nobody in that film expressed remorse? They don't

:21:40.:21:44.

have any social contract with society rightly or wrongly. That is

:21:44.:21:48.

why they don't express remorse, they don't feel they have a stake

:21:48.:21:52.

in society, that is why they don't express remorse. Let's be clear

:21:52.:21:55.

they are not the whole of the young people in Manchester or a fraction

:21:56.:22:01.

of the young people in Manchester. No, but a pretty destructive group?

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There is a danger of demonising all young people seeing a film like.

:22:05.:22:08.

That they don't have a stake in society. What can be done? We need

:22:09.:22:12.

to win back control of the streets, we kind have done, it rained,

:22:12.:22:17.

people don't come out in the rain. Secondly, some how you have, Cody

:22:17.:22:21.

is the one to say, what could politicians do to make young men

:22:21.:22:27.

like that think they had any stake in society? Right, just from our

:22:27.:22:31.

perspective, I have grown up in the same society, my mum and dad taught

:22:31.:22:35.

me right from wrong, people make their own decisions, come hell or

:22:35.:22:41.

high water. We look at MPs, look at the expenses scandal, right, if

:22:41.:22:45.

these people that are running the country and have a say in society

:22:45.:22:50.

are cutting corners and doing the taxpayer out of money, how can they

:22:50.:22:55.

point the finger at us who have nothing and belittle us. What

:22:55.:22:59.

should we do, that's what I need to know. Ian is something who has

:22:59.:23:02.

suffered that? I can't take that as an argument, with the greatest will

:23:02.:23:09.

in the world, the MPs doing what they did with expenses. Stealing is

:23:09.:23:12.

stealing. I have no objective to, that they have gone and suffered

:23:12.:23:18.

for it. With the greatest will in the world, it doesn't excuse the

:23:18.:23:20.

mob mentality, unfortunately the mob mentality took over the city

:23:21.:23:27.

that night, if they carried on, I said this on camera on the nigh f

:23:27.:23:31.

they carried on the following night, without the rain, there would have

:23:31.:23:35.

been nothing left. If I can ask you before we finish, you know these

:23:35.:23:39.

people and you talk to them, could this happen again? Very easily.

:23:39.:23:44.

This wasn't orchestrated, if this was orchestrated, places like

:23:44.:23:48.

Selfridge, an affluent shop, some of the watches worth hundreds of

:23:48.:23:51.

thousands of pounds, if it was orchestrated they were the shops

:23:51.:23:54.

that would have gone first. The police are talking about cutting

:23:54.:23:58.

numbers. The police couldn't maintain that many people f it was

:23:58.:24:00.

orchestrated and more people came the police couldn't do anything

:24:00.:24:04.

about it. Could it happen again? could, but there is way of

:24:04.:24:09.

controlling it. It is literally, it is read the riot act, use their

:24:09.:24:13.

media against them, send them a text, send them on Bebo and

:24:13.:24:17.

Facebook, if you are in the city centre, intending to riot, you will

:24:17.:24:21.

then have a curfew. That is not strong enough. We have to go beyond

:24:21.:24:27.

that to the whole issue of jobs and education. But the long-term needs

:24:27.:24:35.

different answers. We've got no prospects, that is why people do

:24:35.:24:39.

what they do they have no prospects, no jobs, no nothing, that is why

:24:39.:24:42.

they struggle. Indeed, one of the solutions the Government identified

:24:42.:24:47.

in the aftermath of the riots improving the employment prospects

:24:47.:24:50.

for disaffected young people. Workers from Eastern Europe still

:24:50.:24:56.

believe there is a market for their skills in Britain. During the last

:24:56.:24:58.

week, David Cameron promised a reduced net immigration to this

:24:58.:25:04.

country in the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds of

:25:04.:25:08.

thousands. But last year it was up 21% on the year before. Where does

:25:08.:25:12.

it leave the Prime Minister's pledge, and their plans to get more

:25:12.:25:19.

people into work. Immigration is simply too high at

:25:19.:25:25.

the moment. If you look at what's happening

:25:25.:25:28.

with immigration, the difference between what's happening with

:25:28.:25:32.

people going to live overseas and those here, it is often as high as

:25:32.:25:35.

200,000, I want to us bring immigration down so it is in the

:25:35.:25:39.

tens of thousands, not the hundreds of thousands.

:25:40.:25:42.

Ed Miliband's response to that election promise was to say he

:25:42.:25:45.

wouldn't match it, because he didn't think David Cameron could

:25:45.:25:50.

deliver on it. So what must the Prime Minister be thinking today?

:25:50.:25:57.

On his watch, net migration has risen to 240,000, that's an

:25:57.:26:05.

increase of 4%. For a Government which made immigration one of its

:26:05.:26:10.

top priorities, that is a problem, not just from the opposition

:26:10.:26:13.

benches. It shows the task of getting immigration, or net

:26:13.:26:16.

immigration down to tens of thousands is going to be a

:26:16.:26:21.

difficult one. And we'll have to make a lot of choices which will be

:26:21.:26:24.

controversial. We may have to go further than the policies already

:26:25.:26:29.

announced. We could well follow the Scandinavians and have a much

:26:30.:26:35.

higher age for people coming here for marriage, and that would reduce

:26:35.:26:41.

the use of marriage as a proxy for immigration rights. And it's not

:26:41.:26:44.

just net migration that's making problems for the Government, it is

:26:44.:26:49.

who is getting a job. The latest official figures show more than

:26:49.:26:53.

two-thirds of all extra jobs created last year went to foreign

:26:53.:26:56.

nationals. The picture is complicated. Every year a very

:26:56.:27:00.

large number of jobs are disappearing, and an equally large

:27:00.:27:05.

number, or you hope in good times, and an even larger number is

:27:05.:27:09.

created. Of that the total number of jobs changing hands in the

:27:09.:27:15.

economy, about 85% go to people here, only 10-15% go to foreigners.

:27:15.:27:18.

It is true to say of the extra jobs created, the net difference between

:27:19.:27:22.

one that is were just replacing other jobs that disappeared, or the

:27:22.:27:25.

extra, a large proportion of it is made up by people coming into the

:27:25.:27:29.

country, not having a job before, and now they are getting a job in

:27:29.:27:32.

Britain for the first time. Another survey of employers, out this week,

:27:32.:27:38.

gives cause for concern. In 2010, a third of employers were prepared to

:27:38.:27:43.

hire British 17 and 18-year-olds, now only a quarter are look to go

:27:43.:27:47.

do so. That is the same proportion that want to employ foreign workers

:27:47.:27:53.

from the EU, a record high and in direct response to the Government's

:27:53.:27:58.

cap on non-EU immigration. The real challenge for the

:27:58.:28:02.

Government is not to talk about reducing immigration from outside

:28:02.:28:05.

the EU, hoping that will make employers turn to young people

:28:05.:28:07.

already here, because the evidence shows that is not happening, they

:28:07.:28:11.

will turn to people from inside the EU, to Eastern Europe, with numbers

:28:11.:28:16.

are rising. The challenge is to look at skills, vocational training,

:28:16.:28:21.

apprenticeships for young people and try to get them more attracted

:28:21.:28:25.

to employment. Today's figures show a huge rise in net migration of

:28:25.:28:29.

workers like these, from Eastern Europe, up to 39,000 from just

:28:29.:28:34.

5,000 last year. The other big factor is a steep drop in people

:28:34.:28:38.

emigrating from the UK. We can't control people who have the right

:28:38.:28:42.

to move within the EU. Certainly and obviously no Government should

:28:42.:28:46.

try to control the emigration of its own citizens, what it is

:28:46.:28:50.

sensible for Governments to do is control what it can control, which

:28:50.:28:56.

is people coming here from outside the EU. Just last week the office

:28:57.:29:01.

of national statistics said 35% of all new extra shops are going to

:29:01.:29:06.

foreign nationals, why is that happening? In various sectors this

:29:06.:29:09.

country has become addicted to immigration, and like weaning

:29:09.:29:13.

anyone off an addiction, it requires time, and it requires

:29:13.:29:16.

patience, and it requires perseverance. That is what we are

:29:16.:29:21.

doing. We need a better balanced immigration system, we need lower

:29:21.:29:25.

immigration into this country, we also need a better skilled work

:29:25.:29:29.

force. But the Home Office says there are no plans to change the

:29:29.:29:33.

Prime Minister's ambitious target for reducing migration. No, none at

:29:33.:29:38.

all, it is very important that we get immigration at a sustainable

:29:38.:29:43.

level, not just for our economy, but also the wider health of

:29:43.:29:46.

society. If people have confidence in the immigration system, some of

:29:46.:29:50.

the social stresss and strains we have seen in recent years go away.

:29:50.:29:55.

It is still a vote-winning message, but the reality is last year, the

:29:55.:30:00.

number of people moving to the UK, was the same as the population of

:30:01.:30:04.

Stoke-on-Trent. That's under a Conservative-led Government. To

:30:04.:30:08.

keep their supporters on side, they will have to do more than hope for

:30:08.:30:18.
:30:18.:30:19.

better figures next year. As we came on air, there were

:30:19.:30:22.

reports that the fledgling Libyan Government has announced it is

:30:22.:30:27.

moving to Tripoli, but that doesn't seem to be their only concern.

:30:27.:30:31.

Yesterday the head of the Libyan transitional council was in Paris,

:30:31.:30:35.

and today in Istanbul, everywhere, asking for money. It seems to have

:30:35.:30:40.

paid off, Italy agreed to release $500 million in frozen assets, and

:30:40.:30:46.

a deal was reached with the UN to release billions of funds. We're in

:30:46.:30:52.

Benghazi where the Government in waiting is still there. Any news of

:30:52.:30:57.

the rebels move to Tripoli? Several ministers have already moved to

:30:57.:31:03.

Tripoli. Others are expected to follow shortly. But the head of the

:31:03.:31:06.

transitional council, Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, most people think he

:31:06.:31:11.

won't follow for some days, at the very least. Basically, there are

:31:11.:31:14.

still considerable security concerns, and obviously members of

:31:14.:31:18.

the council are very obvious targets for Gaddafi loyalists. The

:31:18.:31:22.

problem is to balance the security considerations against the danger

:31:22.:31:26.

of creating a political vacuum, in Tripoli. Really they need an

:31:26.:31:30.

inclusive Government in control, in Tripoli, as soon as possible. I

:31:30.:31:34.

think whatever happens there is bound to be very robust political

:31:34.:31:38.

jockeying for positions in Tripoli in the weeks to come. We have just

:31:38.:31:44.

heard about the UN deal on relosing assets, how badly does the National

:31:44.:31:49.

Transitional Council need money? Basically, it is a liquidity

:31:49.:31:54.

problem a shortage of physical cash. In towns which have been besieged

:31:54.:31:58.

for a long time, like Misrata, people haven't had wages for months

:31:58.:32:03.

and months, even here in the east, where there hasn't been much

:32:03.:32:06.

fighting for months, people are getting a fraction of their

:32:06.:32:10.

salaries, or only intermittently. This isn't just an economic problem,

:32:10.:32:14.

but a political problem. People are saying they fought so hard for

:32:14.:32:17.

victory over Gaddafi, they want to see the economic fruits of that.

:32:17.:32:21.

The other thing talked about here is the return of the Lockerbie

:32:21.:32:25.

bomber, Al-Megrahi, there has been calls for his return. What are

:32:25.:32:31.

people saying there? This is a very interesting question. Obviously Al-

:32:32.:32:34.

Megrahi was released to come back here, two years ago, on the basis

:32:34.:32:39.

that he was about to die. He is still alive. But, on the other hand,

:32:39.:32:45.

of course, this was a decision very spesif clo of the Scottish

:32:45.:32:49.

Executive, it would be - specifically, of the Scottish

:32:49.:32:55.

Executive, they would have to ask for them back. It would be their

:32:55.:33:00.

First Minister, Alex Salmond admitting they made a mistake. In

:33:00.:33:03.

practice demands for Al-Megrahi to to be returned are more likity to

:33:03.:33:08.

come from the United States. We know - likely to come from the

:33:08.:33:11.

United States. We know American politicians were very unhappy about

:33:11.:33:16.

his release. When it will happen, it is too early to say. Earlier

:33:17.:33:20.

this evening I spoke to the Foreign Secretary, William Hague. How much

:33:20.:33:24.

of a problem is gad being at large and the fighting still going on, in

:33:24.:33:28.

terms of trying to create stable society and a Government? It is one

:33:28.:33:32.

of the important things, to bring him to justice. One of several

:33:32.:33:36.

important things, of course, also to bring more order and security to

:33:36.:33:40.

be established in Tripoli, for the National Transitional Council to

:33:40.:33:46.

have access to more funds. What happens to Gaddafi is one very

:33:46.:33:50.

important component. How much are the special forces from the US,

:33:50.:33:55.

France and Britain able to help on this? We don't comment on the

:33:55.:33:59.

special forces, for good reason, if we talk about them we will endanger

:33:59.:34:03.

them, we don't do that. At the moment there are reports of

:34:03.:34:06.

atrocities on both sides coming through. How important is it there

:34:06.:34:10.

isn't a power vacuum, and the transitional council gets to

:34:10.:34:13.

Tripoli? It is very important, we are encouraging them to do, that

:34:13.:34:17.

they have done a good job so far. They have done a good job in other

:34:17.:34:21.

parts of the country. I was impress bid them in Benghazi. It is

:34:21.:34:25.

difficult for them to operate in Tripoli, the sooner they can get

:34:25.:34:29.

there and establish their own administrative authority there, the

:34:29.:34:32.

better. Do you think they should be there, despite the fighting? They

:34:32.:34:37.

should get there as quickly as possible, we are actively enCo

:34:37.:34:42.

Couraging them to do that. - Encouraging them to do that as soon

:34:42.:34:48.

as possible. Will there be diplomats to help them get a civil

:34:48.:34:51.

society together? There will be shirts on the ground most

:34:52.:34:57.

definitely. We have a strong team in Benghazi, we have already had an

:34:57.:35:00.

international stablisation team, giving advice to the National

:35:00.:35:03.

Transitional Council. We can help them with advice on policing,

:35:04.:35:08.

clearing land mine, and with �20 million of immediate assistance we

:35:09.:35:13.

have set aside. There is an awful lot of money not in the country

:35:13.:35:19.

that will be needed. Most things that need to be done, wages paid,

:35:19.:35:23.

roads rebuilt, that is the sort of thing that the transitional council

:35:23.:35:26.

will need if they are going to secure authority for themselves.

:35:26.:35:30.

Can you get money there now? have made a good start on this,

:35:30.:35:35.

yesterday South Africa was the remaining reluctant country, and

:35:35.:35:40.

agreed to the release of $500 million of assets in the United

:35:40.:35:46.

States. We want a further $1 billion of dollars to be released,

:35:46.:35:49.

there are tens of billions of dollars that belong to the Libyan

:35:49.:35:53.

state, that need to be returned to them in managed way, that guards

:35:53.:35:57.

against any misaproper racial of those assets. That is one of the

:35:57.:36:01.

things we will be discussing at the UN over the next week and the Paris

:36:01.:36:03.

conference, which the Prime Minister and President Sarkozy will

:36:03.:36:07.

co-chair a week from now. worried are you about an implosion

:36:07.:36:10.

that there will be mayhem and lawlessness, which seems to be

:36:10.:36:14.

rising up now? We should always be concerned about any chaotic

:36:14.:36:18.

situation. But, of course, there have been concerns all the way

:36:18.:36:22.

along. People said we couldn't get a resolution, then we couldn't

:36:22.:36:26.

enforce a no-fly zone, a permanent stalemate, now the concern is will

:36:26.:36:30.

there be a situation that is too chaotic for too long in Tripoli.

:36:30.:36:34.

That is why we are doing all these things to try to release the funds

:36:35.:36:37.

and get the National Transitional Council there, and get more

:36:37.:36:40.

international recognition for them, so the people of Libya can see

:36:40.:36:45.

there has been a fundamental change. Are you going to demand the return

:36:45.:36:48.

of Al-Megrahi from the transitional council, while they are in power?

:36:48.:36:51.

This is a matter for the Scottish ministers, as you know, they took

:36:51.:36:54.

the decision to release them, the Prime Minister and I were in

:36:54.:36:57.

opposition at the time, we strongly disapproved of the decision. I said

:36:57.:37:01.

earlier this week, if I was a Scottish minister I would look at

:37:01.:37:05.

this again, and review it to see what I could do. If they want, if

:37:05.:37:09.

in Scotland they want the active support of the UK Government in

:37:09.:37:16.

seeking information about him and supporting any representations they

:37:16.:37:21.

want to make about him, they will get energetic support. Finally on

:37:21.:37:25.

Syria, there is not even support for a sanctions resolution, but if

:37:25.:37:29.

there is, soon, a democracy in Libya, if things calm down, will

:37:29.:37:34.

that embolden the UN, and David Cameron to suggest that actually

:37:34.:37:38.

there should be a similar action in Syria? Syria is a different case.

:37:38.:37:42.

In Libya we have acted with full legal and international authority,

:37:42.:37:47.

and strong support from within the region. Syria clearly is in a

:37:47.:37:53.

different category in that sense. The pressure that we can afly on

:37:53.:37:58.

Syria - apply on Syria is different in nature. If we want to stay

:37:58.:38:03.

within the international law. Libya the idea was to protect

:38:03.:38:07.

civilian, civilians are in trouble in Syria? That's right, but it is

:38:07.:38:10.

also important we act with full legal and international authority.

:38:10.:38:16.

What we are doing is steadily ramping up the sanctions on Syria,

:38:16.:38:20.

we announced additional sanctions alongside the US this week, and

:38:20.:38:26.

more EU sangss coming up this week. The message will go out, as Libya

:38:26.:38:32.

embraces a free, democratic and inclusive future, that tyrants or

:38:32.:38:35.

authoritarian rulers cannot stand permanently against the wishes of

:38:35.:38:42.

their population, to have a free future.

:38:42.:38:47.

As America faces the prospect of borrowing $125 billion every month,

:38:47.:38:55.

just to patient bills. What does the future really hold for the

:38:55.:39:04.

superpower. The writer Mark Steyn see as post apocalyptic situation,

:39:04.:39:11.

and Armageddon. Here is where he thinks Uncle Sam is heading. It is

:39:11.:39:16.

the Apocalypse Soon thesis, the idea that the time of America's

:39:16.:39:21.

economic domination is over, and others, like China are set to fill

:39:21.:39:25.

their shoes. After predicting the collapse of the rest of the western

:39:25.:39:31.

world in his first book, America Alone, he argues in After America,

:39:31.:39:38.

that the rush for self-destruction has hit America. It is his aspirin

:39:38.:39:44.

against the drunkle sailor policies in Washington. He starts with the

:39:44.:39:48.

money, Obama's non-stimulating stimulus, impending financial

:39:48.:39:52.

collapse, before lambasting the whom culture in America, the shift

:39:52.:39:58.

away from the can-do spirit, to the can-do with some Government

:39:58.:40:04.

spending spirit. It is the kids picking up the check after the old

:40:04.:40:10.

timers' almighty bender. Live free or die, from 1,000 soothing

:40:10.:40:15.

caresses of the nanny state is the mantra to the young. Steyn's mantra

:40:15.:40:21.

is strip way Government, decentralise, demonopolise,

:40:21.:40:24.

decredentialise, anything to force the status out of our pockets and

:40:25.:40:28.

out of our lives. But he's clear that the fall will not be pretty,

:40:28.:40:34.

and not be gradue. His forecast predicts a slide within - gradual,

:40:35.:40:39.

his forecast predictss a slide within the next ten years. He

:40:39.:40:45.

thinks the US is big enough to fail, and heading towards being the next

:40:45.:40:51.

empire to shop until it drops, literally. The bubble about to pop

:40:51.:40:57.

isn't the property market or cheap credit, it is the US of the 21st

:40:57.:41:00.

century itself. The author joins me now. Do you

:41:00.:41:03.

think that America is in a worse position than Europe? I think so,

:41:03.:41:09.

if only because the sums of money are so much greater. I mean, when a

:41:09.:41:13.

multitrillion dollar disaster slides off the cliff it lands with

:41:13.:41:18.

a much bigger thud than Iceland and Portugal. But America is richer and

:41:18.:41:22.

bigger to withstand it? I don't think, I think you can do the debt

:41:22.:41:26.

to GDP comparisons, in the end, here the hard money sums are so

:41:26.:41:30.

hugement we are talking about America depending on the rest of

:41:30.:41:35.

the planet being willing to sink 20% of its entire GDP into US

:41:35.:41:41.

Treasury debt by 2020, that is astonishing Are you really

:41:41.:41:44.

suggesting that western civilisation is over? Basically

:41:44.:41:48.

yeah. I think it gets back to what you were talking about earlier. I

:41:48.:41:53.

think the downgraded credit rating in America, and the downgraded

:41:53.:41:57.

human capital on the streets of Manchester, we saw earlier, are

:41:57.:42:03.

actually part of the same story. The really evil thing about big

:42:03.:42:07.

Government is not just the waste of money, but the waste of people.

:42:07.:42:12.

if big Government hadn't stepped in America in 2008, the ATMs would

:42:12.:42:17.

have had no money in them, people wouldn't just lose their houses but

:42:17.:42:20.

loot anything their houses, they had to step in there, didn't they,

:42:20.:42:25.

even for a short fix? I don't think so. I think we're beyond short

:42:25.:42:28.

fixes. This is what the western world is up against, its business

:42:28.:42:34.

model is unsustainable. I don't agrow with Abbott on a lot, as she

:42:34.:42:39.

- agree with First Orbit object on a lot, as thee would agree. - Diane

:42:39.:42:44.

Abbott a lot, as she would agree. But the heart of it is people have

:42:44.:42:48.

to have a stake in society, in Greece, in Germany, here,

:42:48.:42:53.

increasingly in the United States, too many people don't. You were the

:42:53.:42:57.

man who was all for no regulation, and look where no regulation got us

:42:57.:43:02.

with the banks, and sub-prime mortgages, people buying houses

:43:02.:43:07.

they couldn't afford, the American dream? The sub-prime mortgage was

:43:07.:43:10.

invented by Government. The United States Government decided that

:43:10.:43:17.

banks could no longer make rational calculation of risk, it destroyed

:43:18.:43:20.

two of the bedrocks of free societies, the property market,

:43:21.:43:24.

there is about twice as many three bedroom homes as anyone needs in

:43:24.:43:29.

America, and the banking system. Those are two of the pillars of a

:43:29.:43:32.

free society. Are you really saying that things are no fragile that

:43:32.:43:38.

America might fail? I think so, I think by 2015, when you have US

:43:38.:43:41.

tax-payers simply through the interest on the debt, funding the

:43:42.:43:44.

entire cost of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, there is no

:43:44.:43:48.

precedent for that. No precedent for that. You, I always think, are

:43:48.:43:55.

the person who is the big defender of western civilisation and you

:43:55.:43:59.

have turned turtle? I'm saying I don't want to slide off the cliff,

:43:59.:44:04.

but we are hanging by our fingernails, and to get back on

:44:04.:44:11.

solid ground...I think this is not just as when Britain went to

:44:11.:44:14.

America, this is a profound civilisational shift such as we

:44:14.:44:21.

have not seen in centuries. Do you believe that Islamic civilisation,

:44:21.:44:23.

Indian civilisation, Chinese civilisation could teach as you lot

:44:23.:44:28.

about the way to live? No, I think we are looking at a world where you

:44:28.:44:35.

will have an economically strong China, a demo graphically strong

:44:35.:44:43.

Islam, sharing in not a lot of the world wealth. The packs- America

:44:43.:44:49.

and packs-British exchange was smooth. Here we would have no world

:44:49.:44:55.

order. What about the rule of law and rule of democracy? I like that,

:44:55.:44:58.

what is fascinating about watching the fellas in your film about

:44:58.:45:02.

Manchester, where is the rule of law and democracy, the regional

:45:02.:45:05.

powers anywhere round the planet, Canada, South Africa, India,

:45:05.:45:09.

Australia, what do those countries have in common, how come people on

:45:09.:45:11.

the streets of Manchester don't know that. Thank you very much

:45:11.:45:16.

indeed. Just tomorrow morning's front pages,

:45:16.:45:26.
:45:26.:45:35.

the Telegraph, new EU job rights That's all from Newsnight tonight.

:45:35.:45:40.

Tomorrow night Paul Mason will be here. It is seven years since Alex

:45:40.:45:44.

Ferguson gave the BBC his hair dryer treatment and refused to

:45:44.:45:48.

speak to us, good news, the parties have kissed and made up, for now,

:45:48.:45:52.

any way. Good night.

:45:52.:45:59.

# I hold no grudge # There's no resentment on me

:45:59.:46:09.
:46:09.:46:11.

# I'll extend the Laurel wreath # And we'll be friends

:46:11.:46:21.
:46:21.:46:28.

Hello, more heavy rain is arriving, it will be a wet day, particularly

:46:28.:46:31.

across eastern England on Friday. Elsewhere, spells of sunshine,

:46:31.:46:34.

there will also be showers. Particularly soggy in eastern

:46:34.:46:39.

England, the rain working its way up through the North Sea. Miserable

:46:39.:46:43.

conditions on the beaches of north- east England, temperatures 15-16

:46:43.:46:46.

Celsius. Some of the rain across into the Midlands, wet in East

:46:47.:46:50.

Anglia, the south-east may brighten up, more showers drifting in off

:46:50.:46:55.

the channel across the southern most counties of England. Sunny

:46:55.:46:58.

spells and scattered showers, in Wales, like today, some of the

:46:58.:47:01.

showers will be powerful. With the risk of a thunderstorm developing

:47:01.:47:04.

almost anywhere. Temperatures high teens at best, a sprinkling of

:47:04.:47:08.

showers in Northern Ireland. There should be some sunshine here. It

:47:08.:47:12.

may just start a little bit foggy, a scattering of showers also across

:47:12.:47:16.

Scotland. A chance here of some places staying dry. It is not the

:47:16.:47:19.

last. We are expecting the wet weather in eastern England to

:47:19.:47:23.

transfer northwards, it looks like being a very wet and windy Saturday

:47:23.:47:27.

across a good part of Scotland. Gales or severe gale, especially on

:47:27.:47:31.

the north coast. Further south the weather will remain mixed on

:47:31.:47:35.

Saturday. Some sunshine, but there will also be showers. Wherever you

:47:35.:47:38.

are there will be a brisk breeze, blowing. Bringing the showers

:47:38.:47:42.

Donal MacIntyre talks to young men who took part in the recent Manchester riots. He finds them revelling in the memories of the time when they overturned the rule of law and made the streets their own. Presented by Kirsty Wark.