24/08/2011 Newsnight


24/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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He's at large somewhere, and until he as found, with or without a

:00:08.:00:13.

pulse, the Libyan revolution is unfinished, his 40-year rule is

:00:13.:00:17.

unquestionably over, but the rebels need proof. In a city with no

:00:17.:00:20.

single overall control, it is the absence of Colonel Gaddafi which

:00:20.:00:25.

drives on the uprising. Our correspondent has been on the

:00:25.:00:30.

streets of Tripoli. Don't be fooled by all of this celebration. Just

:00:30.:00:35.

take a look at what lies on the ground here. All of these bullet

:00:35.:00:40.

casings. This place exploded in celebration, literally.

:00:40.:00:45.

Women were prominent in the early uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, but

:00:45.:00:49.

they have been almost invisible in Libya. What will be the fruit of

:00:49.:00:53.

the Arab Spring for half the population of Arabia.

:00:53.:00:56.

This is what national service used to mean. It is another cup of tea

:00:56.:01:00.

all together in David Cameron's scheme. You lot try this one, that

:01:00.:01:10.
:01:10.:01:14.

Colonel Gaddafi popped up in a rambling broadcast last night,

:01:14.:01:19.

claiming he wasn't in hiding, merely making a tactical move,

:01:19.:01:23.

presumably much like Mussolini's tactical move to a convenient

:01:23.:01:27.

lampost. His rule in Libya may be over, but his presence or absence

:01:27.:01:31.

still haunts the country. There is a bountyee of over $1 million on

:01:31.:01:35.

his head, dead or alive, and a promise of a pardon for anyone who

:01:35.:01:41.

kills or captures him, until he's taken, the revolution is then

:01:41.:01:46.

unfinished. That hasn't stopped the celebrations in the centre of

:01:46.:01:55.

Tripoli, where we have been taking in this the mood. This is Green

:01:55.:02:01.

Square, renamed martters' square, for all those who lost their lives.

:02:01.:02:06.

It is a scene of celebration, the families are coming out waving the

:02:06.:02:12.

old Libyan trib colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. - tri-

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colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. Don't be fooled, just look at

:02:15.:02:20.

what lies on the ground here, all of the bullet casings, this place

:02:20.:02:24.

exploded in celebration, literally they have been firing off every

:02:24.:02:27.

possible weapon, including anti- aircraft fire today, to show to

:02:27.:02:32.

Libyans and to the world that the Libyans have ended Colonel

:02:32.:02:36.

Gaddafi's 42-year rule. Let's take you into the square. Because look

:02:36.:02:41.

at the scaffolding, they were already preparing to mark Colonel

:02:41.:02:47.

Gaddafi's 42 years in power. This is where the stage was going to

:02:47.:02:52.

celebrate. What lies on the ground was a huge portrait of the

:02:52.:02:57.

revolutionary leader, it now lies charred in ruins. They tore it

:02:57.:03:01.

apart, and want to say that Libya is free and they have been chanting

:03:01.:03:07.

that Colonel Gaddafi is dead. But the big question is, where is he?

:03:07.:03:11.

The rebels say they have offered a reward if they can get him dead or

:03:11.:03:16.

alive. That's not stopping them from celebrating. Just look. Listen

:03:16.:03:20.

to the deafening sound, these were the rampart where is Colonel

:03:20.:03:23.

Gaddafi used to come to the square to address his people, the masses,

:03:23.:03:28.

he said, who loved him. He said don't believe the world, my people

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love me. You will remember those speeches, those iconic speeches of

:03:31.:03:35.

this leader who has totally dominated Libya for the past 42

:03:35.:03:41.

years, and imposed his highly personalised rule, his ideas, which

:03:41.:03:45.

verged on the outright bizarre sometimes, and tried to have a

:03:45.:03:52.

revolution that actually people here did not have support.

:03:52.:03:56.

That was earlier in Tripoli. The rebels, if we should still call

:03:56.:04:00.

them that, believe that Gaddafi is still hiding out somewhere in the

:04:00.:04:05.

city. But there is no certainty of his early capture, in the meantime,

:04:05.:04:08.

can the National Transitional Council impose their authority on

:04:08.:04:17.

the country. The battle for Tripoli enters its

:04:18.:04:24.

fourth day, it is not over yet. On Sunday, fighters loyal to Colonel

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Gaddafi had seemed to melt away. But they have reappeared, and the

:04:32.:04:38.

rebels are meeting fierce and stubborn resistance.

:04:38.:04:42.

Many of these fighters believe the colonel is still somewhere in

:04:42.:04:46.

Tripoli. The rebel leadership has offered more than a million dollars

:04:46.:04:53.

for him, dead or alive, a tempting reward for guys like these, but

:04:53.:04:58.

they would probably be happy to do it for free. This is the house of

:04:58.:05:02.

Gaddafi, and we are the revolution, we are in the house of Gaddafi,

:05:02.:05:08.

this is the endpoint. Day after they took the former dictator's

:05:08.:05:11.

sprawling compound, rebels are still pouring over the spoils. But

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it isn't secure. Even here, loyalist snipers have still been

:05:16.:05:21.

holding out from deep inside. There was good news, though, for the 35

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foreigner, most of them journalist, who had been held prisoner inside

:05:25.:05:29.

the Rixos Hotel. After five day, their guards, turned captors,

:05:29.:05:35.

finally let them go. I was so worried about you guy, it was the

:05:35.:05:41.

most awful thing. Most of Libya's main towns and cities are now under

:05:41.:05:46.

rebel control. Only Sirte, Gaddafi's home town, and Sabha, in

:05:46.:05:49.

the south, are offering serious resistance to the opposition.

:05:50.:05:54.

Inside Tripoli itself, there was still shooting coming from inside

:05:54.:05:58.

the colonel's Bab Al-Aziziya compound. To the south, pro-

:05:58.:06:03.

Government forces have been firing in the neighbourhoods here. While

:06:03.:06:09.

the rebel fighters are busy trying to consolidate the gains made in

:06:09.:06:13.

the last few days. It is the politicians who have the more

:06:13.:06:16.

daunting task trying to store a sense of normality, and trying to

:06:16.:06:20.

bring together all the various facets of Libyan society. But at

:06:20.:06:23.

the moment the leaders of the National Transitional Council

:06:23.:06:27.

aren't even in Tripoli yet. The interim Prime Minister was in Paris

:06:27.:06:33.

w a view to releasing some much needed funds. Our work on the

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ground is not finished, and the biggest battle has not started yet,

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it is the battle of reconstruction. The priority is stability and

:06:45.:06:50.

security. There is a vast amount to do, basic services, hospital, all

:06:50.:06:54.

have been hard hit by six months of conflict. But rebuilding Libya will

:06:54.:06:58.

be difficult, while the new Government is still essentially in

:06:58.:07:02.

exile. They have to get rid of Gaddafi and

:07:02.:07:08.

his sons, and his resistance in the area, that is when it will be safe

:07:08.:07:15.

for them to go to Tripoli. But that will not happen until the security

:07:15.:07:20.

is guaranteed and until the situation is guaranteed that they

:07:20.:07:23.

can go in there and function from there.

:07:23.:07:27.

But the longer they wait, the more potentially dangerous the situation

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becomes. Tripoli is awash with armed men, who don't answer to any

:07:32.:07:41.

unified command structure. The fear is it could turn into a vicious

:07:41.:07:45.

circle.The Rebels can't secure the peace without establishing a

:07:45.:07:47.

functioning and inclusive Government that brings in all the

:07:47.:07:52.

shades of opinion in Libya, the tribe, the region al differences,

:07:52.:07:55.

the ideolgical differences between Islamists and nationalists. Libya

:07:55.:08:00.

is one of the most diverse societies in North Africa. Multiple

:08:00.:08:04.

divisions. Libya is a construct of the early

:08:04.:08:08.

20th century, when the Italians brought together the three

:08:08.:08:13.

provinces. They were brought into a single

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colony, it is a complicated patchwork of tribal affiliations,

:08:17.:08:20.

across the country, from Colonel Gaddafi's tribe with the power base

:08:20.:08:25.

in the town of Sirte, to the powerful tribes around the oil

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refiners at Zawiya. It is not that simple. In Benghazi there are large

:08:30.:08:34.

numbers of people whose allegance belongs to the Misrata tribe, the

:08:34.:08:38.

wealthy port city hundreds of miles to the west. And it gets more

:08:38.:08:43.

complicated still. A month ago a rebel commander outside Misrata

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explained to me that if his men entered the next town to the west,

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without a sufficient contingent of local fighters, they would be met

:08:52.:08:58.

with resistance, even if they were on the rebel side. Loyalist forces

:08:58.:09:02.

could continue to put up resistance for some time to come now. Colonel

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Gaddafi may have lost his grip on power, but that doesn't mean that

:09:05.:09:10.

he can't still cause trouble. While he's still at large, his presence

:09:10.:09:15.

will continue to cast a long shadow over Libya. These are the most

:09:15.:09:19.

recent pictures that Libyans have seen of the man who ruled their

:09:19.:09:24.

lives for over four decades. He has now disappeared from view, but the

:09:24.:09:29.

emotional power of his image remains very strong.

:09:29.:09:33.

In the minds and imagination of many Libyans this means fear, the

:09:33.:09:37.

fact that he's out, he's still spewing poison. There is the

:09:37.:09:42.

potential that he and his sons could easily basically develop and

:09:42.:09:46.

support and finance an insurgency. Think of what Saddam Hussein did

:09:46.:09:51.

before his capture. Libya is, of course, not Iraq, for

:09:51.:09:55.

many reasons, not least because there aren't the bitter sectarian

:09:55.:09:58.

divisions that dragged Iraq into a vicious civil war. So far, in the

:09:58.:10:02.

parts of Tripoli that are fully under the rebels control, the mood

:10:02.:10:06.

is more relaxed than tense. But these are early days.

:10:06.:10:11.

With us now in the studio, the former Foreign Secretary, David

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Owen, we are joined from Washington by the former US Ambassador to NATO.

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First let's talk to Benghazi, the foreign affairs spokesman for the

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National Transitional Council. What is your first priority there?

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first priority is, of course, to provide security and basic needs

:10:40.:10:50.
:10:50.:10:51.

for the population. What does that mean in practice? It means to

:10:51.:10:59.

secure all cities and to put an end to Gaddafi's regime, and his

:10:59.:11:03.

security forces, and also to work with the international community,

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the first meeting we had today, in order to unfreeze some of our

:11:10.:11:16.

frozen assets abroad. We all know that Tripoli has been under siege

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for almost six months, and we have more than two million people in

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Tripoli, they are in real need for medicine, fuel, food and other

:11:30.:11:35.

supplies, these are our priorities for now. Is the plan that you will

:11:35.:11:40.

push National Transitional Council members in charge of all the

:11:40.:11:45.

ministries previously under Gaddafi's control? Can you rephrase

:11:45.:11:51.

your question again please. Is the idea that members of the National

:11:51.:11:56.

Transitional Council will take over all the individual ministries that

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were previously under Gaddafi's control.

:12:03.:12:06.

The ministries, the people who work in the ministries will remain where

:12:06.:12:12.

they work, for the ministries, or for the high officials, it depends

:12:12.:12:18.

if they are accused of being involved in any crimes or

:12:18.:12:24.

corruption, then they would have to face a fair trial, and this is what

:12:24.:12:29.

the NTC have been saying. When do you think it will be safe for you

:12:29.:12:35.

to move to Tripoli? The first delegation moved to Tripoli today.

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We have some members of the NTC, we have some members of the executive

:12:39.:12:45.

office, they are already in Tripoli, and we have an advance team to

:12:46.:12:52.

prepare a location for the NTC and also to provide and prepare a

:12:52.:12:56.

residence for the members who are moving from different cities in

:12:56.:13:01.

Libya to Tripoli. We expect this to happen within two weeks. Thank you

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for joining us. Despite all the communication difficulties.

:13:06.:13:11.

Now, Lord Owen, how big a problem is it that Gaddafi is still

:13:11.:13:15.

apparently at large somewhere? is a huge problem, psychalogically.

:13:15.:13:20.

It may not be quite such a big problem in any other way. The real

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problem is how do you get the snipers and isolated people to stop

:13:25.:13:28.

fighting. I think it would be much easier, I don't think it would stop

:13:28.:13:33.

immediately, but if you got Gaddafi, or you knew exactly where he was,

:13:33.:13:40.

outside the country, perhaps, it would make a great deal easier to

:13:41.:13:44.

pacify the country, and stop these isolated groups fighting. I don't

:13:45.:13:48.

think they come under any real command and control at the moment.

:13:48.:13:57.

That's the danger of the situation. Volkswagen vok, you heard there the

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- You heard there the member of the National Transitional Council, the

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main priority was to get the assets unfrozen, the assets Gaddafi got

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his hands on and then put beyond his reach by Governments in the

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world, would you agree that is the first thing to do? The first thing

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he said was security. I agree with him on that, I think security where

:14:21.:14:25.

the rebels are taking control, preventing retribution killings and

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ensuring people are able to go about their business. That is the

:14:29.:14:32.

key thing. In order for the Transitonal National Council to

:14:32.:14:35.

function, as an emerging Government, to keep things going in Libya, they

:14:35.:14:39.

are going to need those kinds of financial resources to pay salaries

:14:39.:14:43.

of people who have been paid by the Government to think point. Getting

:14:43.:14:48.

their hands on some of these assets quickly is very important. Is there

:14:48.:14:52.

a model anywhere for how the National Transitional Council could

:14:52.:14:57.

go about this extremely difficult job? I have been interested to see

:14:57.:15:01.

how things are going in Tunisia next door. They also have a

:15:01.:15:04.

transitional council. They have a different name for it. It is to

:15:04.:15:08.

ensure the realisation of the objectives of the revolution.

:15:08.:15:11.

Rather than playing a direct role in governance, they have tried to

:15:11.:15:18.

ensure there is a long transition process from what had been a

:15:18.:15:24.

Government run by a dictator, without much public input at all,

:15:24.:15:29.

to one that receives public input through elections. To play an

:15:29.:15:32.

oversight role, without a direct governing role without a long

:15:32.:15:37.

period of time, is rather a good model for the TNC. The most

:15:37.:15:40.

important thing they have already done is to publish a draft

:15:41.:15:45.

constitution, so people can see their direction. They promised

:15:45.:15:48.

election in eight months, that is a short time. Whether they can do it

:15:48.:15:52.

I'm not so sure. Even more important they have said that none

:15:52.:15:55.

of the transitional council will stand in those elections. Therefore,

:15:55.:16:00.

they are much more likely to be seen to be independent, just

:16:00.:16:05.

working for the unification of Libya. I think they have talked to

:16:05.:16:09.

a lot of Government supporters, and Governments in the west, and other

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Arab Government, and there is a lot of aftermath planning. That is one

:16:15.:16:19.

advantage of this five to six month process, they have been able to

:16:19.:16:25.

anticipate and learn from mistakes, I'm not as pessimistic as some

:16:25.:16:31.

about the transition. I'm modestly optimistic. A lot of people worry

:16:31.:16:36.

that because they represent so many diverse points of view to what the

:16:36.:16:40.

country could be like it can't last? These same people are really

:16:40.:16:44.

the ones against the no-fly zone, who didn't believe NATO could pull

:16:44.:16:47.

this very difficult operation off, and who have been rather

:16:47.:16:52.

pessimistic about it all along. I'm not a crazy idealist, it is going

:16:52.:16:56.

to be a difficult transition, but we watched the mess in Afghanistan

:16:56.:17:01.

and Iraq and the world really, I think, realises we have to do

:17:01.:17:07.

better here. What are the lessons for NATO here? Let me just quickly,

:17:07.:17:10.

your other question, if there weren't a diversity of points of

:17:10.:17:14.

view, then you would have a problem. It is the fact that you are

:17:14.:17:18.

bringing people, that is what is going to make it work. For NATO, I

:17:18.:17:23.

think there is a risk that we make a conclusion here that it worked

:17:23.:17:28.

out, so NATO must be fine. I think that would be a dangerous

:17:28.:17:32.

conclusion to reach, at several layer there is are issues we ought

:17:32.:17:37.

to be concerned about in the alliance, the issue of leadership,

:17:37.:17:40.

the issue of solidarity, capacities that allies bring to the table, are

:17:40.:17:46.

they able to take part in military action. In Libya we saw a mission

:17:46.:17:49.

nominally to protect civilians what made the difference was a few

:17:49.:17:53.

nations, acting very much on their own, France, the UK, the US and

:17:53.:17:56.

others, to actually co-ordinate much more closely with the rebels,

:17:56.:18:01.

to provide trainers, advisers, so they could make a decisive effect

:18:01.:18:06.

in Libya. NATO wasn't willing to take on that more robust mission,

:18:06.:18:10.

and not all the countries have the capacity to do so. It is striking

:18:10.:18:13.

how pathetic some of the NATO countries were? I think there is a

:18:13.:18:19.

real wake-up call for NATO. The one thing NATO provided was a command

:18:19.:18:23.

and control infrastructure that allowed America to work effectively

:18:23.:18:26.

with France and Britain. That is basically it. Only eight countries

:18:26.:18:30.

out of 28, that is less than a third actually contributed to this

:18:30.:18:35.

whole thing. And you know, we had Canada involved as well as the

:18:35.:18:41.

United States, and Norway, who is not an EU member, Poland didn't

:18:41.:18:47.

participate, nor did Turkey. But never the less, despite all the

:18:47.:18:53.

problems, and the running out of ammunition after only 11 week noose

:18:53.:18:57.

the operation, NATO has managed to provide the structure, and that's

:18:57.:19:03.

why I would say, keep NATO, but it has to be reformed, and seriously.

:19:03.:19:07.

And any tendency in Europe to say we did this, we did this alone, the

:19:07.:19:13.

Americans were absolutely crucial in the first three days, with their

:19:13.:19:17.

civils, over 100, taking out the ground-to-air missiles,

:19:17.:19:21.

sophisticated air defences, which Gaddafi had. I do think that for

:19:21.:19:27.

all the problems, the UN resolution, we managed to get China and Russia

:19:27.:19:31.

not vetoing, and we managed to get an operation, which was constrained.

:19:31.:19:35.

I think that interventions from now on will be constrained

:19:35.:19:39.

interventions. We have to work with these limitations. But we held

:19:39.:19:42.

public opinion in this country, and because it was legal and supported

:19:42.:19:46.

by the UN. Thank you very much.

:19:46.:19:51.

The London police released figures today to show they have now

:19:51.:19:56.

arrested nearly 2,000 people, and charged over 1 100 in connection

:19:56.:20:02.

with the riots. Part of David Cameron's cure for the problems, is

:20:02.:20:06.

the national service. He wants the national citizens service to be

:20:07.:20:12.

available to every teenager. Can it possibly attract young people so

:20:12.:20:16.

profoundly disaffected. Stephen Smith, who has been

:20:16.:20:20.

reporting on David Cameron's Big Society for us, had access to key

:20:20.:20:26.

stages of the scheme. Citizen Smith, what have you done today to make

:20:26.:20:30.

you feel proud? Picking up a broom, it has been the

:20:30.:20:35.

caisz of the summer. But do you know what, we were there first.

:20:35.:20:45.
:20:45.:21:10.

Like a German holiday maker's towel Conspicuously, this isn't Downing

:21:11.:21:18.

Street, or the houses of parliament. But this wind-blown rock in the

:21:18.:21:21.

Lake District, could become a landmark in British politics. This

:21:21.:21:25.

is one of the places where ministers hope youngsters can be

:21:25.:21:29.

encouraged to scale the heights in their careers. And their

:21:29.:21:32.

communities. And to take a different route from young people

:21:32.:21:41.

of a similar age who were involved in riots earlier this month. So we

:21:41.:21:45.

have just done climbing, and what I want to do now, is I want you to

:21:45.:21:48.

think about what happened when we were walking up here, why you were

:21:48.:21:53.

climbing. I think the hardest thing for me was that hill. Because it is

:21:53.:21:59.

big and it is long. It is very steep. Get that hill on camera!

:21:59.:22:06.

This group, all aged 16 and from south London, are on a week's

:22:06.:22:12.

outward bound trip, as part of David Cameron's National Citizens'

:22:12.:22:16.

Service. You are meeting strangers, and basically you have to trust

:22:16.:22:22.

them. What we just did is all about trust and team work. It is like

:22:22.:22:29.

prison? Yeah. In what way? The bunk beds, there is no signal, you don't

:22:29.:22:32.

get no signal on your phone. Do you good, some people would say, a bit

:22:32.:22:38.

of a change? Yeah, I know, it is still boring. I love the. I can't

:22:38.:22:43.

work it out if you are enjoying it or not? Oh no, I'm enjoying it, I'm

:22:43.:22:48.

loving it. At the other end of the country,

:22:48.:22:53.

this is the outskirts of Croydon, where some of those youngsters come

:22:53.:23:03.
:23:03.:23:08.

from. This supermarket was burnt It is not far from this bee-loud

:23:09.:23:12.

corner in southern England. This is where another group of future

:23:12.:23:15.

national sit ens, who have already been through the outward bound

:23:15.:23:18.

phase of the scheme, are hoping to do something to benefit locals.

:23:18.:23:22.

This is the site we want to build our community food learning centre

:23:22.:23:31.

on. You have got work to do, so bags off, over there.

:23:32.:23:36.

They want to help Evelyn here, who is passionate about food, to

:23:36.:23:40.

establish a kitchen and allotments on this site. Though this must be

:23:40.:23:43.

said, Evelyn is doing most of the work today, the youngsters help out

:23:43.:23:48.

with the food tasting. Hey, you lot, try this one, that one is nice,

:23:48.:23:54.

that one is nice. Evelyn, can you seriously fight

:23:54.:23:59.

rioting with quiche! Well, a lot of them join a gang to keep safe, to

:23:59.:24:02.

get self-esteem, and to do something. Because there is nothing

:24:02.:24:06.

to do. Now if you give them something really positive to do,

:24:06.:24:10.

and they can actually stay at it long enough, it is not just going

:24:10.:24:14.

away and doing some abseilling, it is not just going way and doing

:24:14.:24:17.

some camping or something, it is great, it is a treat, but they have

:24:17.:24:23.

to go home, what to? So I want something, a few more buildings

:24:23.:24:26.

around where there is something really creative going on, that they

:24:26.:24:30.

can become part of, bring their mates, and say hands off, we have

:24:30.:24:34.

helped build that, no mucking about. Do you think this kind of thing

:24:34.:24:37.

stops people rioting? Definitely, it gets people off the streets and

:24:38.:24:42.

gives them something to do. What about the kind of hard case guys

:24:42.:24:46.

who were out doing the rioting here last week, is this going to be

:24:46.:24:50.

somewhere they will just laugh at, do you think even they could get

:24:50.:24:55.

involved? You never know, some of the rioters were probably average

:24:55.:24:59.

Joes, the next door neighbour, they will probably get involved any way.

:24:59.:25:03.

Others say setting up and running a kitchen here isn't going to be a

:25:03.:25:10.

walk in the park. Youth volunteers is a great tradition, as a Labour

:25:10.:25:13.

councillor it is part of the co- operative tradition of working

:25:13.:25:20.

together. But they need support and help and assistance. That is what

:25:20.:25:24.

the Big Society is not delivering to an area like this. Quiche

:25:24.:25:28.

doesn't grow on trees. That is why the teenagers are singing for their

:25:28.:25:33.

supper, or rather pitching for some funding at this version of TV's

:25:33.:25:39.

Dragon's Den. The stakes are modest, but the energy isn't. Even old

:25:40.:25:42.

Duncan Bannatyne might get his chequebook out for this lot, or

:25:42.:25:51.

maybe not. Good morning ladies and gentlemen,

:25:51.:25:55.

good food matters was a dream and vision that Evelyn wanted for a

:25:55.:25:58.

long time. She wanted a place for disadvantaged young people who

:25:58.:26:03.

wanted the chance to learn about new foods and lead healthy

:26:03.:26:07.

lifestyles. To raise money for Good Food Matters, we have been taking

:26:07.:26:11.

part in a triathlon, it has three activities, running, swimming and

:26:11.:26:20.

cycling. They need to just think

:26:20.:26:24.

realistically about how many hours they can really commit to this.

:26:24.:26:26.

dragons, who include representatives of a local council,

:26:26.:26:31.

and a high Street bank, decide to give the group the �30 or so they

:26:31.:26:34.

are after, as seed money for their fundraiser.

:26:35.:26:39.

What do they think about the scheme? And the riots, come to

:26:39.:26:43.

that? You don't needing to out and start burning shops and taking

:26:43.:26:46.

things, because there is nothing else to do. That is a short-term

:26:46.:26:50.

gain, long-term loss, some of those shops won't open again. My friend

:26:50.:26:54.

would encourage me to do this, if I wasn't in this challenge. My

:26:54.:26:58.

friends were all out there doing it while I was here. I will be in with

:26:58.:27:05.

him, that is just how I am. Oh my God. Back in the Lake

:27:05.:27:09.

District, some white water team building for the south Londoners we

:27:10.:27:13.

met on the outward bound week of the national citizen source. This

:27:13.:27:19.

is known as gorging, there isn't so much as a McDonald's in sight.

:27:19.:27:25.

How useful is the National Citizen Service. With us is the Children's

:27:25.:27:33.

Minister in the studio in Brighton. And Association of Voluntary

:27:33.:27:38.

Organisations is with us. What is the theory? This is a

:27:38.:27:41.

really big idea, it is really transformational, it is about

:27:41.:27:45.

valuing engaging young people, giving them a stake in society, but

:27:45.:27:49.

also challenging them as well. It is a personal, social development

:27:49.:27:54.

programme, it is about getting them volunteering, but also about Rites

:27:54.:27:58.

of Passage, it is about a transition to adulthood, we do that

:27:58.:28:02.

badly in this country. And the service is a way of recognising the

:28:02.:28:05.

great contribution that young people can make and getting them

:28:05.:28:09.

some respect, if they have been through the challenge that it

:28:09.:28:13.

offers. There is none of it you would take exception to at a

:28:13.:28:17.

theoretical level? Any scheme that gets young people out into the

:28:17.:28:21.

community and volunteering, the question is, is it good enough for

:28:21.:28:25.

the challenges we have at the moment. There is an inescapably

:28:25.:28:28.

context we found ourselves at the moment, that is the cuts. Youth

:28:28.:28:32.

charities throughout the country are getting their funding cut.

:28:32.:28:36.

Swindon has just cut 100% of its funding to youth voluntary

:28:36.:28:39.

programmes. Secondly, there is an issue about reach of the programme.

:28:39.:28:42.

Will the programme get right down to the people who need it the most.

:28:42.:28:46.

If this programme replaces that which is cut, there is no problem?

:28:46.:28:50.

There is a problem. This scheme is going to cost, according to a

:28:50.:28:56.

committee of MPs, �355 million, that's only half of eligible

:28:56.:29:03.

children taking it up. On the hand you are having that same amount of

:29:03.:29:06.

money cut from voluntary youth services up and down the country.

:29:06.:29:08.

Now you have to look at this through the eyes of young people.

:29:09.:29:14.

If you are a young person who is involved already in a youth

:29:14.:29:18.

programme, that volunteers every Thursday or weekly, and they see

:29:18.:29:21.

that scheme cut, and on the other hand they see another big

:29:21.:29:24.

initiative that lands on the table, they are not going to see it as

:29:24.:29:27.

that is something from the local service, which have disappeared,

:29:27.:29:31.

and here is a national programme, they will see this as robbing Peter

:29:31.:29:35.

to pay Paul. It seems a nuts arrangement minister? It is not

:29:35.:29:38.

nuts at all. This is something we have been working on for several

:29:38.:29:43.

years, not something that has come up since the disturbances recently.

:29:43.:29:47.

This is money that has come in a separate funding scheme from the

:29:47.:29:51.

Treasury, it is not part of education or youth funding. It is

:29:51.:29:55.

money going into youth activities. What was wrong with all the

:29:55.:30:00.

projects you are cutting? We are not cutting the projects, youth

:30:00.:30:04.

projects are run by councils, and there is a mixed cutting. I'm

:30:04.:30:08.

trying to bring, from a national perspective, is bring the services

:30:08.:30:13.

into the 21st century, they are reliant on slugs of money from the

:30:13.:30:17.

public sector, I want the private sector and local authorities to get

:30:17.:30:20.

involved in youth services. This is something bigger and better, and

:30:20.:30:24.

certainly very ambitious indeed, this is also about social mixing,

:30:24.:30:27.

you heard from those kids who have been on the scheme already. The

:30:27.:30:30.

feedback from it, I have been there, climbing up walls, I have been

:30:30.:30:33.

climbing up trees with some of these kids. It is really

:30:33.:30:37.

challenging and the feedback is positive, very positive. As they

:30:37.:30:41.

said, they are meeting people they would never have met, they would

:30:41.:30:45.

never have crossed the road to meet. They are from all different walks

:30:45.:30:48.

of life. To say that you need something new, when actually we

:30:48.:30:53.

have youth services out there that have been running for generations,

:30:53.:30:57.

that have enormous amounts of inherited and institution memories

:30:57.:31:02.

about how to work with young people and get down deep. This is not a

:31:02.:31:05.

compulsory scheme, it is a nationwide scheme, so the bigger

:31:05.:31:08.

issue facing our society at the moment, particularly highlighted by

:31:08.:31:13.

recent events is how you get to the most dysfunctional. Let's ask the

:31:13.:31:16.

minister? That is exactly what this is about. If it is voluntary and

:31:16.:31:21.

you can choose not to take part in it, how do you reach the kids?

:31:21.:31:24.

tapped into all the expertise delivering services up and down the

:31:24.:31:27.

country. This isn't something that the Department for Education and

:31:27.:31:32.

the Government have come up with. We are working with V, with the

:31:32.:31:35.

Prince's Trust. You have cut those, local authority services which you

:31:35.:31:39.

have cut, you are working with all these things you have taken money

:31:39.:31:45.

away from, can you tell u the point was how you encage children if it

:31:45.:31:48.

is voluntary? By working with the experts. Part of the tendering,

:31:48.:31:51.

this is delivered not by central Government, this is being delivered

:31:51.:31:55.

by all sorts of youth services who have an enormous expertise working

:31:55.:31:58.

with particularly challenging children already. We have Catch 22,

:31:58.:32:04.

with a great deal of expertise working with kids in the youth

:32:04.:32:08.

justice system, or who are homeless, who are working with the service,

:32:09.:32:12.

working alongside Young Devon and Connections in different parts of

:32:12.:32:18.

the country, mixes up kids from different backgrounds. It won't be

:32:18.:32:24.

judged by how many middle-class children go to, but how we engage

:32:24.:32:27.

with people from disabilities and difficult background and people

:32:27.:32:31.

from the justice system and others. Other schemes don't do that, that

:32:31.:32:35.

is what it is all about. Answer the question, minister, how do you

:32:35.:32:39.

engage those who need to be engaged, if the thing is entirely voluntary?

:32:39.:32:42.

Because this will be such a fantastic scheme, as you are seeing

:32:42.:32:45.

from the feedback with the kids that go on it, that you will be

:32:45.:32:52.

crazy not to want to go on it. We can consult with the youth sector,

:32:52.:32:56.

and that puts a different complexion on the whole thing. This

:32:56.:32:59.

is something that values young people and young people should

:32:59.:33:03.

value it too. These young people are going back to friends and

:33:03.:33:07.

siblings to say sign up for it next year. Does that consort with your

:33:08.:33:11.

own experience here? There have been so many opportunities for

:33:11.:33:17.

young people for so long, why would they want to do this and not other

:33:17.:33:20.

things. We are talking about the people we need to benefit from this

:33:20.:33:23.

scheme are the very hardest to reach. These are people on the

:33:23.:33:28.

fringes of society. They are. on a second. These people are on

:33:28.:33:30.

the fringes of society, business as usual won't get these people

:33:30.:33:35.

involved. We need to put into context the scale of the programme

:33:35.:33:40.

being launched today, �355 million to get half of eligible yupgs ters

:33:40.:33:44.

involved in this, according to a committee of MPs. Who are wrong.

:33:44.:33:47.

That is the equivalent of all spending from local authorities on

:33:47.:33:52.

youth services for the entire country. So we are talking about an

:33:52.:33:55.

enormous grand scheme, that is nationwide, when really all the

:33:55.:34:00.

evidence is saying at the moment, the problem we need to get to is

:34:00.:34:06.

very, very focused, even Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new -

:34:06.:34:09.

Iain Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new policy, and saying it

:34:09.:34:13.

is going down to individuals, these people won't go out looking for the

:34:13.:34:16.

opportunities, the opportunities have to come looking for them. They

:34:16.:34:19.

have to start looking at new ways of getting these high-cost

:34:19.:34:22.

individuals out into these schemes. It will be tough, and it needs

:34:22.:34:26.

something that has not been done before. It is happening. I am

:34:26.:34:30.

afraid this has been done before. The people I have seen on the

:34:31.:34:35.

schemes, the challenge as a charity delivering about 30% of the place,

:34:35.:34:40.

70% of the people on the schemes don't engage with the conventional

:34:40.:34:45.

youth services there already. 20% are kids who qualify for free

:34:45.:34:49.

school meals and disadvantaged background, from the East End of

:34:49.:34:53.

London, and Manchester, mixing with kids from rural areas and

:34:53.:34:57.

independent schools who they wouldn't come across. Thrown in

:34:57.:35:01.

they weekend, working in teams, they are being challenged and

:35:01.:35:05.

getting a lot out of it, and so will the country. This is

:35:05.:35:07.

transformational. The toppling of Colonel Gaddafi has

:35:07.:35:12.

been presented as the first step in transition to modern, democratic

:35:12.:35:16.

state. But one look at the National Transitional Council reveals a

:35:16.:35:22.

glaerg fact. They are nearly all men. The Arab Spring was presented

:35:22.:35:26.

as bringing freedom to all. It was noticed how many earlier

:35:26.:35:29.

demonstrators in the centre of Cairo, were in Tahrir Square

:35:29.:35:35.

instead of being at home cooking the dinner. The expectation was the

:35:35.:35:45.

end of autocracy would benefit both sexes. It is incredibly

:35:45.:35:48.

discontented. I don't think we have been where the world is looking at

:35:48.:35:52.

us. In the beginning it was spring for everyone, women as well as men

:35:52.:35:58.

on the streets of Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, veiled and bare-headed, a

:35:58.:36:06.

democratic and feminist Arab awakening.

:36:06.:36:11.

Six months later, notice a difference. Libya's revolution is

:36:11.:36:18.

being run almost exclusively by men. It seems women were at the

:36:18.:36:21.

forefront of the initial protests in Benghazi, women have played a

:36:21.:36:25.

strong role in the opposition. We don't see a huge representation of

:36:25.:36:28.

women in the National Transitional Council. It seems clear that women

:36:28.:36:35.

are in a very small minority. The irony is, before the revolution,

:36:35.:36:39.

Libya was one of the more equal counties in the Arab world. Women

:36:39.:36:43.

were better educated than in neighbouring countries, had

:36:43.:36:47.

maternity benefits and held high- ranking Government positions. Of

:36:47.:36:52.

course, Colonel Gaddafi always had his personal peccadilloes, there

:36:52.:36:57.

was the all female team of body guards. And in his famous green

:36:57.:37:07.
:37:07.:37:17.

book, a strange lecture on matters But women were always a visible,

:37:17.:37:22.

vital part of the colonel's Libya. Could that be about to change? In

:37:22.:37:28.

Tunisia and Egypt, women, not only marched, but were leading the

:37:28.:37:31.

protests. Everyone wants a new start, so you know, it is just

:37:31.:37:37.

lovely to be part of it all. Everyone suffered from a different

:37:37.:37:41.

problem, now we think all our problems will be resolved. Yes. We

:37:41.:37:48.

are very optimistic now. As the dictators fell, and the

:37:48.:37:52.

interim Governments came in, women have slowly seen their contribution

:37:52.:37:56.

swept to one side. In Egypt, for example, there is not one single

:37:56.:38:00.

women on the committee to rewrite the constitution. It is devastating

:38:00.:38:08.

for some activists. Unfortunately the way that the country has been

:38:08.:38:13.

ruled so far doss not really allow for strong participation or

:38:13.:38:17.

inclusion of women in decision making. We thought that with a new

:38:17.:38:22.

democratic Egypt this would be over. But we still don't see this

:38:22.:38:26.

happening. In Tunisia women are feeling the backlash too. Back in

:38:26.:38:31.

January they Marched together with men, to over- marched together with

:38:31.:38:35.

men to overthrow Ben Ali. Now this blogger says boys shout at her in

:38:35.:38:40.

the street, your place is in the kitchen and why does she need more

:38:40.:38:44.

rights. Some are blaming women, especially the former President's

:38:44.:38:47.

wife, for the excesses of the regime. The big unknown is how much

:38:47.:38:52.

power will land in the hands of the religious movements. A recent poll

:38:52.:38:57.

in tu in this caseia put their Islamist - Tunisia put their

:38:57.:39:05.

Islamist party in the lead. The Muslim Brotherhood is still strong.

:39:05.:39:10.

In the struggle for a democratic voice, as spring passes into summer

:39:10.:39:15.

and autumn, Arab women may find themselves no better off than

:39:15.:39:20.

during the long winter of the dictators. Let's chew this over now

:39:20.:39:24.

with a political analyst, who recently spent five months working

:39:24.:39:29.

with the National Transitional Council in Benghazi, and in New

:39:29.:39:34.

York with a Middle East commentator. Will it really be a new dawn in

:39:34.:39:38.

Libya, do you think? I had extremely positive experience, I

:39:38.:39:42.

just went marching into a city that wasn't mine, without any family,

:39:42.:39:46.

and there was women involved in every aspect of the revolution from

:39:46.:39:50.

what I could see. We haven't seen much evidence of women on the

:39:50.:39:53.

streets, either in Tripoli or Benghazi? On the contrary, I

:39:53.:39:57.

wouldn't say it was in the stories, but it was present, they were

:39:58.:40:01.

leading marches, organising themselves, setting up civil

:40:01.:40:05.

societies, over 100 newspapers were set up, many editorialised by women.

:40:05.:40:10.

In every aspect of the revolution, from the local councils, the NTC

:40:10.:40:15.

and cabinet, I worked with women to know detriment with myself. Do you

:40:15.:40:19.

share the confidence about the advance of women as a consequence

:40:19.:40:22.

of the Arab Spring? Absolutely, I think the revolution we have seen

:40:22.:40:25.

on the ground, the revolution of the feet has definitely to be

:40:25.:40:29.

followed by the revolution of the mind. That, I think, is the key

:40:29.:40:32.

element that all the countries across the region have to face

:40:32.:40:36.

sooner or later, and by the revolution of the mind, I mean

:40:36.:40:39.

recogniseing that we fought a patriarch in the form of the

:40:39.:40:43.

dictator, and we now need to fight patriarchs within ourselves, within

:40:43.:40:47.

our families, within our work. But having said that, nothing could be

:40:47.:40:54.

worse than what people had lived under Gaddafi, Mubarak and Ben Ali.

:40:54.:40:59.

Under Gaddafi you had social rehabilitation centres, where girls

:40:59.:41:03.

were dumped in they were victims of sexual abuse or rai. These must

:41:03.:41:07.

close. There is no doubt in my mind that men, women and children will

:41:07.:41:12.

live better lives without Gaddafi. This amusing idea that he was some

:41:12.:41:16.

sort of feminist hero, what do you make of that? That was outrageous,

:41:16.:41:21.

remember he would go to Italy and tell his pal Berlusconi, so round

:41:21.:41:25.

up women for him to rescue European women. It was laughable. The

:41:25.:41:31.

passage we heard from the green book, and this image he had that he

:41:31.:41:35.

was a feminist because he was surrounded by female body guards.

:41:35.:41:45.
:41:45.:41:47.

It was as ludicrous as the First Ladys of many countries, like many

:41:47.:41:55.

of them claiming their husband was helping women and they were not.

:41:55.:41:59.

whole heartedly agree with everything that was said. There was

:41:59.:42:02.

complete nepotism that effected both men and women, nobody advanced

:42:02.:42:06.

on the merit, if you didn't have a connection to the regime you were

:42:07.:42:10.

not suitable, not because you were a woman, or a men. Can you really

:42:10.:42:14.

in your wildest dreams imagine any of these countries having a female

:42:14.:42:18.

President? I very much hope in the future. There is nothing stopping

:42:18.:42:24.

me. Is that the same as imagineing? In the past five months I have

:42:24.:42:31.

walked into the NTC, and working with all these men, nothing stopped

:42:31.:42:34.

me except coming home for a break. There is nothing stopping any of

:42:34.:42:37.

the women I have met from having a future role in leading their

:42:37.:42:43.

country. There is only one woman on the NTC? There is more than one

:42:43.:42:48.

woman. The entire National Assembly will be elected when it moves to

:42:48.:42:52.

Tripoli. There is women working on the councils in in the cabinet.

:42:52.:42:55.

There is women behind civil society uprisings, taking place throughout

:42:55.:42:58.

the country. While certainly there is a lot of male chest beating

:42:58.:43:02.

going on in a lot of Arab countries, if you look at the women who are

:43:02.:43:07.

getting on with the work, they roll their eyes and step aside the need

:43:07.:43:12.

for any particular camera in their face and just get on with the work.

:43:12.:43:19.

They are very comfortable with the role they have. Can you imagine a

:43:19.:43:24.

female President of Egypt? We have a woman running for President.

:43:24.:43:27.

She's a very well known television presenter. And just before I came

:43:27.:43:33.

on to the air, I was following her tweets from southern Egypt, she has

:43:33.:43:37.

tirelessly travelled across the country. She's canvasing more than

:43:37.:43:41.

any of the male candidates I have heard of. Whether she stands a

:43:41.:43:46.

chance or not is besides the point, what is more important is she's out

:43:46.:43:52.

there, meeting people in the most conservative areas of Egypt and

:43:52.:43:56.

saying what every candidate needs to say, what do you need as an

:43:56.:43:59.

Egyptian, what do we need to do to make a free Egypt succeed. I would

:43:59.:44:03.

vote for her. I hope in the next presidential elections we have in

:44:03.:44:08.

Egypt more than one woman runs. This is just the beginning. It is

:44:08.:44:11.

only seven months since we finally got rid of Mubarak. We need to work

:44:11.:44:15.

on the revolution of the mind. We need to persuade Egyptian women and

:44:15.:44:19.

men, that together, as citizens of Egypt, they must rebuild the

:44:19.:44:23.

country. That is how we ensure boys and girls, men and women, have

:44:23.:44:28.

equal trols play in our countries. How long - equal roles to play in

:44:28.:44:32.

our countries. How long will it take? I don't know, but it took 18

:44:32.:44:36.

days to get rid of Mubarak, but if it takes the rest of our lives to

:44:36.:44:40.

make sure this becomes a reality. You are seeing children in Egypt

:44:40.:44:44.

seeing a woman running for President. Children in Egypt with

:44:44.:44:54.

their parents telling them remember the Tahrir Square, you are talking

:44:54.:44:58.

about a generation that is awake, they got rid of a dictator. That

:44:58.:45:02.

sense of optimisim is addictive, it is inspirational. Knowing the

:45:03.:45:06.

patriotism in the country, but knowing that we got rid of the

:45:06.:45:11.

number one patriarch, we can do it, I'm sure.

:45:11.:45:14.

A look ahead to something coming up tomorrow, when we will have a

:45:14.:45:20.

special report on the riots from Donal McIntyre, who has been on the

:45:20.:45:24.

trail of the Manchester looters. Newsnight has exclusive stories

:45:25.:45:28.

from the Manchester riots, from eyewitnesses, and looters. What did

:45:28.:45:34.

you get? A TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes.

:45:34.:45:39.

extraordinary and unpalatable truth is for 12 hours one of the

:45:39.:45:42.

country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and

:45:42.:45:47.

out of control. Tomorrow morning's front pages are dominated by

:45:48.:45:57.
:45:58.:46:12.

That's all from Newsnight tonight. Tomorrow you will have the pleasure

:46:12.:46:22.
:46:22.:46:26.

of Kirsty's company. Until then, Hello, more wet weather around

:46:26.:46:30.

tonight. In the morning it will be very soggy across parts of north-

:46:30.:46:35.

east England, the Midlands, this heavy rain gradually working across

:46:35.:46:39.

East Anglia and the south-east. Particularly in South Wales and the

:46:39.:46:44.

east of England,-y showers. A fine day in the north, brightening in

:46:44.:46:48.

the east of the Pennine, some of the coast will stay grey and damp.

:46:48.:46:52.

The rain will take quite a bit of time before clearing away from Kent.

:46:52.:46:56.

Brightening up across the home counties, there will be sunny

:46:56.:46:58.

spells across the south west of England, expect heavy showers with

:46:58.:47:02.

a risk of hail and thunder, especially on the north coast of

:47:02.:47:06.

Devon, some of the storms will work into southern parts of Wales.

:47:06.:47:10.

Elsewhere parts of rain is sunshine and scattered showers, also for

:47:11.:47:14.

Northern Ireland. Not so many showers across Scotland, some in

:47:14.:47:19.

the North West, elsewhere it may stay dry with sunshine lifting the

:47:19.:47:23.

temperature. As for Friday, we are expecting more wet weather to work

:47:23.:47:27.

across parts of England and Wales, scattered showers for Scotland and

:47:27.:47:32.

Northern Ireland. But equally there will be a decent A sunshine. In the

:47:32.:47:35.

south there will be more wet weather around on Friday.

:47:35.:47:38.

Particularly across eastern counties of England. Again there is

:47:38.:47:42.

the likelihood that this rain could be heavy and possibly thundery.

:47:42.:47:45.

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