24/08/2011 Newsnight

He's at large somewhere, and until he as found, with or without a

pulse, the Libyan revolution is unfinished, his 40-year rule is

unquestionably over, but the rebels need proof. In a city with no

single overall control, it is the absence of Colonel Gaddafi which

drives on the uprising. Our correspondent has been on the

streets of Tripoli. Don't be fooled by all of this celebration. Just

take a look at what lies on the ground here. All of these bullet

casings. This place exploded in celebration, literally.

Women were prominent in the early uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, but

they have been almost invisible in Libya. What will be the fruit of

the Arab Spring for half the population of Arabia.

This is what national service used to mean. It is another cup of tea

all together in David Cameron's scheme. You lot try this one, that

Colonel Gaddafi popped up in a rambling broadcast last night,

claiming he wasn't in hiding, merely making a tactical move,

presumably much like Mussolini's tactical move to a convenient

lampost. His rule in Libya may be over, but his presence or absence

still haunts the country. There is a bountyee of over $1 million on

his head, dead or alive, and a promise of a pardon for anyone who

kills or captures him, until he's taken, the revolution is then

unfinished. That hasn't stopped the celebrations in the centre of

Tripoli, where we have been taking in this the mood. This is Green

Square, renamed martters' square, for all those who lost their lives.

It is a scene of celebration, the families are coming out waving the

old Libyan trib colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. - tri-

colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. Don't be fooled, just look at

what lies on the ground here, all of the bullet casings, this place

exploded in celebration, literally they have been firing off every

possible weapon, including anti- aircraft fire today, to show to

Libyans and to the world that the Libyans have ended Colonel

Gaddafi's 42-year rule. Let's take you into the square. Because look

at the scaffolding, they were already preparing to mark Colonel

Gaddafi's 42 years in power. This is where the stage was going to

celebrate. What lies on the ground was a huge portrait of the

revolutionary leader, it now lies charred in ruins. They tore it

apart, and want to say that Libya is free and they have been chanting

that Colonel Gaddafi is dead. But the big question is, where is he?

The rebels say they have offered a reward if they can get him dead or

alive. That's not stopping them from celebrating. Just look. Listen

to the deafening sound, these were the rampart where is Colonel

Gaddafi used to come to the square to address his people, the masses,

he said, who loved him. He said don't believe the world, my people

love me. You will remember those speeches, those iconic speeches of

this leader who has totally dominated Libya for the past 42

years, and imposed his highly personalised rule, his ideas, which

verged on the outright bizarre sometimes, and tried to have a

revolution that actually people here did not have support.

That was earlier in Tripoli. The rebels, if we should still call

them that, believe that Gaddafi is still hiding out somewhere in the

city. But there is no certainty of his early capture, in the meantime,

can the National Transitional Council impose their authority on

the country. The battle for Tripoli enters its

fourth day, it is not over yet. On Sunday, fighters loyal to Colonel

Gaddafi had seemed to melt away. But they have reappeared, and the

rebels are meeting fierce and stubborn resistance.

Many of these fighters believe the colonel is still somewhere in

Tripoli. The rebel leadership has offered more than a million dollars

for him, dead or alive, a tempting reward for guys like these, but

they would probably be happy to do it for free. This is the house of

Gaddafi, and we are the revolution, we are in the house of Gaddafi,

this is the endpoint. Day after they took the former dictator's

sprawling compound, rebels are still pouring over the spoils. But

it isn't secure. Even here, loyalist snipers have still been

holding out from deep inside. There was good news, though, for the 35

foreigner, most of them journalist, who had been held prisoner inside

the Rixos Hotel. After five day, their guards, turned captors,

finally let them go. I was so worried about you guy, it was the

most awful thing. Most of Libya's main towns and cities are now under

rebel control. Only Sirte, Gaddafi's home town, and Sabha, in

the south, are offering serious resistance to the opposition.

Inside Tripoli itself, there was still shooting coming from inside

the colonel's Bab Al-Aziziya compound. To the south, pro-

Government forces have been firing in the neighbourhoods here. While

the rebel fighters are busy trying to consolidate the gains made in

the last few days. It is the politicians who have the more

daunting task trying to store a sense of normality, and trying to

bring together all the various facets of Libyan society. But at

the moment the leaders of the National Transitional Council

aren't even in Tripoli yet. The interim Prime Minister was in Paris

w a view to releasing some much needed funds. Our work on the

ground is not finished, and the biggest battle has not started yet,

it is the battle of reconstruction. The priority is stability and

security. There is a vast amount to do, basic services, hospital, all

have been hard hit by six months of conflict. But rebuilding Libya will

be difficult, while the new Government is still essentially in

exile. They have to get rid of Gaddafi and

his sons, and his resistance in the area, that is when it will be safe

for them to go to Tripoli. But that will not happen until the security

is guaranteed and until the situation is guaranteed that they

can go in there and function from there.

But the longer they wait, the more potentially dangerous the situation

becomes. Tripoli is awash with armed men, who don't answer to any

unified command structure. The fear is it could turn into a vicious

circle.The Rebels can't secure the peace without establishing a

functioning and inclusive Government that brings in all the

shades of opinion in Libya, the tribe, the region al differences,

the ideolgical differences between Islamists and nationalists. Libya

is one of the most diverse societies in North Africa. Multiple

divisions. Libya is a construct of the early

20th century, when the Italians brought together the three

provinces. They were brought into a single

colony, it is a complicated patchwork of tribal affiliations,

across the country, from Colonel Gaddafi's tribe with the power base

in the town of Sirte, to the powerful tribes around the oil

refiners at Zawiya. It is not that simple. In Benghazi there are large

numbers of people whose allegance belongs to the Misrata tribe, the

wealthy port city hundreds of miles to the west. And it gets more

complicated still. A month ago a rebel commander outside Misrata

explained to me that if his men entered the next town to the west,

without a sufficient contingent of local fighters, they would be met

with resistance, even if they were on the rebel side. Loyalist forces

could continue to put up resistance for some time to come now. Colonel

Gaddafi may have lost his grip on power, but that doesn't mean that

he can't still cause trouble. While he's still at large, his presence

will continue to cast a long shadow over Libya. These are the most

recent pictures that Libyans have seen of the man who ruled their

lives for over four decades. He has now disappeared from view, but the

emotional power of his image remains very strong.

In the minds and imagination of many Libyans this means fear, the

fact that he's out, he's still spewing poison. There is the

potential that he and his sons could easily basically develop and

support and finance an insurgency. Think of what Saddam Hussein did

before his capture. Libya is, of course, not Iraq, for

many reasons, not least because there aren't the bitter sectarian

divisions that dragged Iraq into a vicious civil war. So far, in the

parts of Tripoli that are fully under the rebels control, the mood

is more relaxed than tense. But these are early days.

With us now in the studio, the former Foreign Secretary, David

Owen, we are joined from Washington by the former US Ambassador to NATO.

First let's talk to Benghazi, the foreign affairs spokesman for the

National Transitional Council. What is your first priority there?

first priority is, of course, to provide security and basic needs

for the population. What does that mean in practice? It means to

secure all cities and to put an end to Gaddafi's regime, and his

security forces, and also to work with the international community,

the first meeting we had today, in order to unfreeze some of our

frozen assets abroad. We all know that Tripoli has been under siege

for almost six months, and we have more than two million people in

Tripoli, they are in real need for medicine, fuel, food and other

supplies, these are our priorities for now. Is the plan that you will

push National Transitional Council members in charge of all the

ministries previously under Gaddafi's control? Can you rephrase

your question again please. Is the idea that members of the National

Transitional Council will take over all the individual ministries that

were previously under Gaddafi's control.

The ministries, the people who work in the ministries will remain where

they work, for the ministries, or for the high officials, it depends

if they are accused of being involved in any crimes or

corruption, then they would have to face a fair trial, and this is what

the NTC have been saying. When do you think it will be safe for you

to move to Tripoli? The first delegation moved to Tripoli today.

We have some members of the NTC, we have some members of the executive

office, they are already in Tripoli, and we have an advance team to

prepare a location for the NTC and also to provide and prepare a

residence for the members who are moving from different cities in

Libya to Tripoli. We expect this to happen within two weeks. Thank you

for joining us. Despite all the communication difficulties.

Now, Lord Owen, how big a problem is it that Gaddafi is still

apparently at large somewhere? is a huge problem, psychalogically.

It may not be quite such a big problem in any other way. The real

problem is how do you get the snipers and isolated people to stop

fighting. I think it would be much easier, I don't think it would stop

immediately, but if you got Gaddafi, or you knew exactly where he was,

outside the country, perhaps, it would make a great deal easier to

pacify the country, and stop these isolated groups fighting. I don't

think they come under any real command and control at the moment.

That's the danger of the situation. Volkswagen vok, you heard there the

- You heard there the member of the National Transitional Council, the

main priority was to get the assets unfrozen, the assets Gaddafi got

his hands on and then put beyond his reach by Governments in the

world, would you agree that is the first thing to do? The first thing

he said was security. I agree with him on that, I think security where

the rebels are taking control, preventing retribution killings and

ensuring people are able to go about their business. That is the

key thing. In order for the Transitonal National Council to

function, as an emerging Government, to keep things going in Libya, they

are going to need those kinds of financial resources to pay salaries

of people who have been paid by the Government to think point. Getting

their hands on some of these assets quickly is very important. Is there

a model anywhere for how the National Transitional Council could

go about this extremely difficult job? I have been interested to see

how things are going in Tunisia next door. They also have a

transitional council. They have a different name for it. It is to

ensure the realisation of the objectives of the revolution.

Rather than playing a direct role in governance, they have tried to

ensure there is a long transition process from what had been a

Government run by a dictator, without much public input at all,

to one that receives public input through elections. To play an

oversight role, without a direct governing role without a long

period of time, is rather a good model for the TNC. The most

important thing they have already done is to publish a draft

constitution, so people can see their direction. They promised

election in eight months, that is a short time. Whether they can do it

I'm not so sure. Even more important they have said that none

of the transitional council will stand in those elections. Therefore,

they are much more likely to be seen to be independent, just

working for the unification of Libya. I think they have talked to

a lot of Government supporters, and Governments in the west, and other

Arab Government, and there is a lot of aftermath planning. That is one

advantage of this five to six month process, they have been able to

anticipate and learn from mistakes, I'm not as pessimistic as some

about the transition. I'm modestly optimistic. A lot of people worry

that because they represent so many diverse points of view to what the

country could be like it can't last? These same people are really

the ones against the no-fly zone, who didn't believe NATO could pull

this very difficult operation off, and who have been rather

pessimistic about it all along. I'm not a crazy idealist, it is going

to be a difficult transition, but we watched the mess in Afghanistan

and Iraq and the world really, I think, realises we have to do

better here. What are the lessons for NATO here? Let me just quickly,

your other question, if there weren't a diversity of points of

view, then you would have a problem. It is the fact that you are

bringing people, that is what is going to make it work. For NATO, I

think there is a risk that we make a conclusion here that it worked

out, so NATO must be fine. I think that would be a dangerous

conclusion to reach, at several layer there is are issues we ought

to be concerned about in the alliance, the issue of leadership,

the issue of solidarity, capacities that allies bring to the table, are

they able to take part in military action. In Libya we saw a mission

nominally to protect civilians what made the difference was a few

nations, acting very much on their own, France, the UK, the US and

others, to actually co-ordinate much more closely with the rebels,

to provide trainers, advisers, so they could make a decisive effect

in Libya. NATO wasn't willing to take on that more robust mission,

and not all the countries have the capacity to do so. It is striking

how pathetic some of the NATO countries were? I think there is a

real wake-up call for NATO. The one thing NATO provided was a command

and control infrastructure that allowed America to work effectively

with France and Britain. That is basically it. Only eight countries

out of 28, that is less than a third actually contributed to this

whole thing. And you know, we had Canada involved as well as the

United States, and Norway, who is not an EU member, Poland didn't

participate, nor did Turkey. But never the less, despite all the

problems, and the running out of ammunition after only 11 week noose

the operation, NATO has managed to provide the structure, and that's

why I would say, keep NATO, but it has to be reformed, and seriously.

And any tendency in Europe to say we did this, we did this alone, the

Americans were absolutely crucial in the first three days, with their

civils, over 100, taking out the ground-to-air missiles,

sophisticated air defences, which Gaddafi had. I do think that for

all the problems, the UN resolution, we managed to get China and Russia

not vetoing, and we managed to get an operation, which was constrained.

I think that interventions from now on will be constrained

interventions. We have to work with these limitations. But we held

public opinion in this country, and because it was legal and supported

by the UN. Thank you very much.

The London police released figures today to show they have now

arrested nearly 2,000 people, and charged over 1 100 in connection

with the riots. Part of David Cameron's cure for the problems, is

the national service. He wants the national citizens service to be

available to every teenager. Can it possibly attract young people so

profoundly disaffected. Stephen Smith, who has been

reporting on David Cameron's Big Society for us, had access to key

stages of the scheme. Citizen Smith, what have you done today to make

you feel proud? Picking up a broom, it has been the

caisz of the summer. But do you know what, we were there first.

Like a German holiday maker's towel Conspicuously, this isn't Downing

Street, or the houses of parliament. But this wind-blown rock in the

Lake District, could become a landmark in British politics. This

is one of the places where ministers hope youngsters can be

encouraged to scale the heights in their careers. And their

communities. And to take a different route from young people

of a similar age who were involved in riots earlier this month. So we

have just done climbing, and what I want to do now, is I want you to

think about what happened when we were walking up here, why you were

climbing. I think the hardest thing for me was that hill. Because it is

big and it is long. It is very steep. Get that hill on camera!

This group, all aged 16 and from south London, are on a week's

outward bound trip, as part of David Cameron's National Citizens'

Service. You are meeting strangers, and basically you have to trust

them. What we just did is all about trust and team work. It is like

prison? Yeah. In what way? The bunk beds, there is no signal, you don't

get no signal on your phone. Do you good, some people would say, a bit

of a change? Yeah, I know, it is still boring. I love the. I can't

work it out if you are enjoying it or not? Oh no, I'm enjoying it, I'm

loving it. At the other end of the country,

this is the outskirts of Croydon, where some of those youngsters come

from. This supermarket was burnt It is not far from this bee-loud

corner in southern England. This is where another group of future

national sit ens, who have already been through the outward bound

phase of the scheme, are hoping to do something to benefit locals.

This is the site we want to build our community food learning centre

on. You have got work to do, so bags off, over there.

They want to help Evelyn here, who is passionate about food, to

establish a kitchen and allotments on this site. Though this must be

said, Evelyn is doing most of the work today, the youngsters help out

with the food tasting. Hey, you lot, try this one, that one is nice,

that one is nice. Evelyn, can you seriously fight

rioting with quiche! Well, a lot of them join a gang to keep safe, to

get self-esteem, and to do something. Because there is nothing

to do. Now if you give them something really positive to do,

and they can actually stay at it long enough, it is not just going

away and doing some abseilling, it is not just going way and doing

some camping or something, it is great, it is a treat, but they have

to go home, what to? So I want something, a few more buildings

around where there is something really creative going on, that they

can become part of, bring their mates, and say hands off, we have

helped build that, no mucking about. Do you think this kind of thing

stops people rioting? Definitely, it gets people off the streets and

gives them something to do. What about the kind of hard case guys

who were out doing the rioting here last week, is this going to be

somewhere they will just laugh at, do you think even they could get

involved? You never know, some of the rioters were probably average

Joes, the next door neighbour, they will probably get involved any way.

Others say setting up and running a kitchen here isn't going to be a

walk in the park. Youth volunteers is a great tradition, as a Labour

councillor it is part of the co- operative tradition of working

together. But they need support and help and assistance. That is what

the Big Society is not delivering to an area like this. Quiche

doesn't grow on trees. That is why the teenagers are singing for their

supper, or rather pitching for some funding at this version of TV's

Dragon's Den. The stakes are modest, but the energy isn't. Even old

Duncan Bannatyne might get his chequebook out for this lot, or

maybe not. Good morning ladies and gentlemen,

good food matters was a dream and vision that Evelyn wanted for a

long time. She wanted a place for disadvantaged young people who

wanted the chance to learn about new foods and lead healthy

lifestyles. To raise money for Good Food Matters, we have been taking

part in a triathlon, it has three activities, running, swimming and

cycling. They need to just think

realistically about how many hours they can really commit to this.

dragons, who include representatives of a local council,

and a high Street bank, decide to give the group the �30 or so they

are after, as seed money for their fundraiser.

What do they think about the scheme? And the riots, come to

that? You don't needing to out and start burning shops and taking

things, because there is nothing else to do. That is a short-term

gain, long-term loss, some of those shops won't open again. My friend

would encourage me to do this, if I wasn't in this challenge. My

friends were all out there doing it while I was here. I will be in with

him, that is just how I am. Oh my God. Back in the Lake

District, some white water team building for the south Londoners we

met on the outward bound week of the national citizen source. This

is known as gorging, there isn't so much as a McDonald's in sight.

How useful is the National Citizen Service. With us is the Children's

Minister in the studio in Brighton. And Association of Voluntary

Organisations is with us. What is the theory? This is a

really big idea, it is really transformational, it is about

valuing engaging young people, giving them a stake in society, but

also challenging them as well. It is a personal, social development

programme, it is about getting them volunteering, but also about Rites

of Passage, it is about a transition to adulthood, we do that

badly in this country. And the service is a way of recognising the

great contribution that young people can make and getting them

some respect, if they have been through the challenge that it

offers. There is none of it you would take exception to at a

theoretical level? Any scheme that gets young people out into the

community and volunteering, the question is, is it good enough for

the challenges we have at the moment. There is an inescapably

context we found ourselves at the moment, that is the cuts. Youth

charities throughout the country are getting their funding cut.

Swindon has just cut 100% of its funding to youth voluntary

programmes. Secondly, there is an issue about reach of the programme.

Will the programme get right down to the people who need it the most.

If this programme replaces that which is cut, there is no problem?

There is a problem. This scheme is going to cost, according to a

committee of MPs, �355 million, that's only half of eligible

children taking it up. On the hand you are having that same amount of

money cut from voluntary youth services up and down the country.

Now you have to look at this through the eyes of young people.

If you are a young person who is involved already in a youth

programme, that volunteers every Thursday or weekly, and they see

that scheme cut, and on the other hand they see another big

initiative that lands on the table, they are not going to see it as

that is something from the local service, which have disappeared,

and here is a national programme, they will see this as robbing Peter

to pay Paul. It seems a nuts arrangement minister? It is not

nuts at all. This is something we have been working on for several

years, not something that has come up since the disturbances recently.

This is money that has come in a separate funding scheme from the

Treasury, it is not part of education or youth funding. It is

money going into youth activities. What was wrong with all the

projects you are cutting? We are not cutting the projects, youth

projects are run by councils, and there is a mixed cutting. I'm

trying to bring, from a national perspective, is bring the services

into the 21st century, they are reliant on slugs of money from the

public sector, I want the private sector and local authorities to get

involved in youth services. This is something bigger and better, and

certainly very ambitious indeed, this is also about social mixing,

you heard from those kids who have been on the scheme already. The

feedback from it, I have been there, climbing up walls, I have been

climbing up trees with some of these kids. It is really

challenging and the feedback is positive, very positive. As they

said, they are meeting people they would never have met, they would

never have crossed the road to meet. They are from all different walks

of life. To say that you need something new, when actually we

have youth services out there that have been running for generations,

that have enormous amounts of inherited and institution memories

about how to work with young people and get down deep. This is not a

compulsory scheme, it is a nationwide scheme, so the bigger

issue facing our society at the moment, particularly highlighted by

recent events is how you get to the most dysfunctional. Let's ask the

minister? That is exactly what this is about. If it is voluntary and

you can choose not to take part in it, how do you reach the kids?

tapped into all the expertise delivering services up and down the

country. This isn't something that the Department for Education and

the Government have come up with. We are working with V, with the

Prince's Trust. You have cut those, local authority services which you

have cut, you are working with all these things you have taken money

away from, can you tell u the point was how you encage children if it

is voluntary? By working with the experts. Part of the tendering,

this is delivered not by central Government, this is being delivered

by all sorts of youth services who have an enormous expertise working

with particularly challenging children already. We have Catch 22,

with a great deal of expertise working with kids in the youth

justice system, or who are homeless, who are working with the service,

working alongside Young Devon and Connections in different parts of

the country, mixes up kids from different backgrounds. It won't be

judged by how many middle-class children go to, but how we engage

with people from disabilities and difficult background and people

from the justice system and others. Other schemes don't do that, that

is what it is all about. Answer the question, minister, how do you

engage those who need to be engaged, if the thing is entirely voluntary?

Because this will be such a fantastic scheme, as you are seeing

from the feedback with the kids that go on it, that you will be

crazy not to want to go on it. We can consult with the youth sector,

and that puts a different complexion on the whole thing. This

is something that values young people and young people should

value it too. These young people are going back to friends and

siblings to say sign up for it next year. Does that consort with your

own experience here? There have been so many opportunities for

young people for so long, why would they want to do this and not other

things. We are talking about the people we need to benefit from this

scheme are the very hardest to reach. These are people on the

fringes of society. They are. on a second. These people are on

the fringes of society, business as usual won't get these people

involved. We need to put into context the scale of the programme

being launched today, �355 million to get half of eligible yupgs ters

involved in this, according to a committee of MPs. Who are wrong.

That is the equivalent of all spending from local authorities on

youth services for the entire country. So we are talking about an

enormous grand scheme, that is nationwide, when really all the

evidence is saying at the moment, the problem we need to get to is

very, very focused, even Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new -

Iain Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new policy, and saying it

is going down to individuals, these people won't go out looking for the

opportunities, the opportunities have to come looking for them. They

have to start looking at new ways of getting these high-cost

individuals out into these schemes. It will be tough, and it needs

something that has not been done before. It is happening. I am

afraid this has been done before. The people I have seen on the

schemes, the challenge as a charity delivering about 30% of the place,

70% of the people on the schemes don't engage with the conventional

youth services there already. 20% are kids who qualify for free

school meals and disadvantaged background, from the East End of

London, and Manchester, mixing with kids from rural areas and

independent schools who they wouldn't come across. Thrown in

they weekend, working in teams, they are being challenged and

getting a lot out of it, and so will the country. This is

transformational. The toppling of Colonel Gaddafi has

been presented as the first step in transition to modern, democratic

state. But one look at the National Transitional Council reveals a

glaerg fact. They are nearly all men. The Arab Spring was presented

as bringing freedom to all. It was noticed how many earlier

demonstrators in the centre of Cairo, were in Tahrir Square

instead of being at home cooking the dinner. The expectation was the

end of autocracy would benefit both sexes. It is incredibly

discontented. I don't think we have been where the world is looking at

us. In the beginning it was spring for everyone, women as well as men

on the streets of Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, veiled and bare-headed, a

democratic and feminist Arab awakening.

Six months later, notice a difference. Libya's revolution is

being run almost exclusively by men. It seems women were at the

forefront of the initial protests in Benghazi, women have played a

strong role in the opposition. We don't see a huge representation of

women in the National Transitional Council. It seems clear that women

are in a very small minority. The irony is, before the revolution,

Libya was one of the more equal counties in the Arab world. Women

were better educated than in neighbouring countries, had

maternity benefits and held high- ranking Government positions. Of

course, Colonel Gaddafi always had his personal peccadilloes, there

was the all female team of body guards. And in his famous green

book, a strange lecture on matters But women were always a visible,

vital part of the colonel's Libya. Could that be about to change? In

Tunisia and Egypt, women, not only marched, but were leading the

protests. Everyone wants a new start, so you know, it is just

lovely to be part of it all. Everyone suffered from a different

problem, now we think all our problems will be resolved. Yes. We

are very optimistic now. As the dictators fell, and the

interim Governments came in, women have slowly seen their contribution

swept to one side. In Egypt, for example, there is not one single

women on the committee to rewrite the constitution. It is devastating

for some activists. Unfortunately the way that the country has been

ruled so far doss not really allow for strong participation or

inclusion of women in decision making. We thought that with a new

democratic Egypt this would be over. But we still don't see this

happening. In Tunisia women are feeling the backlash too. Back in

January they Marched together with men, to over- marched together with

men to overthrow Ben Ali. Now this blogger says boys shout at her in

the street, your place is in the kitchen and why does she need more

rights. Some are blaming women, especially the former President's

wife, for the excesses of the regime. The big unknown is how much

power will land in the hands of the religious movements. A recent poll

in tu in this caseia put their Islamist - Tunisia put their

Islamist party in the lead. The Muslim Brotherhood is still strong.

In the struggle for a democratic voice, as spring passes into summer

and autumn, Arab women may find themselves no better off than

during the long winter of the dictators. Let's chew this over now

with a political analyst, who recently spent five months working

with the National Transitional Council in Benghazi, and in New

York with a Middle East commentator. Will it really be a new dawn in

Libya, do you think? I had extremely positive experience, I

just went marching into a city that wasn't mine, without any family,

and there was women involved in every aspect of the revolution from

what I could see. We haven't seen much evidence of women on the

streets, either in Tripoli or Benghazi? On the contrary, I

wouldn't say it was in the stories, but it was present, they were

leading marches, organising themselves, setting up civil

societies, over 100 newspapers were set up, many editorialised by women.

In every aspect of the revolution, from the local councils, the NTC

and cabinet, I worked with women to know detriment with myself. Do you

share the confidence about the advance of women as a consequence

of the Arab Spring? Absolutely, I think the revolution we have seen

on the ground, the revolution of the feet has definitely to be

followed by the revolution of the mind. That, I think, is the key

element that all the countries across the region have to face

sooner or later, and by the revolution of the mind, I mean

recogniseing that we fought a patriarch in the form of the

dictator, and we now need to fight patriarchs within ourselves, within

our families, within our work. But having said that, nothing could be

worse than what people had lived under Gaddafi, Mubarak and Ben Ali.

Under Gaddafi you had social rehabilitation centres, where girls

were dumped in they were victims of sexual abuse or rai. These must

close. There is no doubt in my mind that men, women and children will

live better lives without Gaddafi. This amusing idea that he was some

sort of feminist hero, what do you make of that? That was outrageous,

remember he would go to Italy and tell his pal Berlusconi, so round

up women for him to rescue European women. It was laughable. The

passage we heard from the green book, and this image he had that he

was a feminist because he was surrounded by female body guards.

It was as ludicrous as the First Ladys of many countries, like many

of them claiming their husband was helping women and they were not.

whole heartedly agree with everything that was said. There was

complete nepotism that effected both men and women, nobody advanced

on the merit, if you didn't have a connection to the regime you were

not suitable, not because you were a woman, or a men. Can you really

in your wildest dreams imagine any of these countries having a female

President? I very much hope in the future. There is nothing stopping

me. Is that the same as imagineing? In the past five months I have

walked into the NTC, and working with all these men, nothing stopped

me except coming home for a break. There is nothing stopping any of

the women I have met from having a future role in leading their

country. There is only one woman on the NTC? There is more than one

woman. The entire National Assembly will be elected when it moves to

Tripoli. There is women working on the councils in in the cabinet.

There is women behind civil society uprisings, taking place throughout

the country. While certainly there is a lot of male chest beating

going on in a lot of Arab countries, if you look at the women who are

getting on with the work, they roll their eyes and step aside the need

for any particular camera in their face and just get on with the work.

They are very comfortable with the role they have. Can you imagine a

female President of Egypt? We have a woman running for President.

She's a very well known television presenter. And just before I came

on to the air, I was following her tweets from southern Egypt, she has

tirelessly travelled across the country. She's canvasing more than

any of the male candidates I have heard of. Whether she stands a

chance or not is besides the point, what is more important is she's out

there, meeting people in the most conservative areas of Egypt and

saying what every candidate needs to say, what do you need as an

Egyptian, what do we need to do to make a free Egypt succeed. I would

vote for her. I hope in the next presidential elections we have in

Egypt more than one woman runs. This is just the beginning. It is

only seven months since we finally got rid of Mubarak. We need to work

on the revolution of the mind. We need to persuade Egyptian women and

men, that together, as citizens of Egypt, they must rebuild the

country. That is how we ensure boys and girls, men and women, have

equal trols play in our countries. How long - equal roles to play in

our countries. How long will it take? I don't know, but it took 18

days to get rid of Mubarak, but if it takes the rest of our lives to

make sure this becomes a reality. You are seeing children in Egypt

seeing a woman running for President. Children in Egypt with

their parents telling them remember the Tahrir Square, you are talking

about a generation that is awake, they got rid of a dictator. That

sense of optimisim is addictive, it is inspirational. Knowing the

patriotism in the country, but knowing that we got rid of the

number one patriarch, we can do it, I'm sure.

A look ahead to something coming up tomorrow, when we will have a

special report on the riots from Donal McIntyre, who has been on the

trail of the Manchester looters. Newsnight has exclusive stories

from the Manchester riots, from eyewitnesses, and looters. What did

you get? A TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes.

extraordinary and unpalatable truth is for 12 hours one of the

country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and

out of control. Tomorrow morning's front pages are dominated by

That's all from Newsnight tonight. Tomorrow you will have the pleasure

of Kirsty's company. Until then, Hello, more wet weather around

tonight. In the morning it will be very soggy across parts of north-

east England, the Midlands, this heavy rain gradually working across

East Anglia and the south-east. Particularly in South Wales and the

east of England,-y showers. A fine day in the north, brightening in

the east of the Pennine, some of the coast will stay grey and damp.

The rain will take quite a bit of time before clearing away from Kent.

Brightening up across the home counties, there will be sunny

spells across the south west of England, expect heavy showers with

a risk of hail and thunder, especially on the north coast of

Devon, some of the storms will work into southern parts of Wales.

Elsewhere parts of rain is sunshine and scattered showers, also for

Northern Ireland. Not so many showers across Scotland, some in

the North West, elsewhere it may stay dry with sunshine lifting the

temperature. As for Friday, we are expecting more wet weather to work

across parts of England and Wales, scattered showers for Scotland and

Northern Ireland. But equally there will be a decent A sunshine. In the

south there will be more wet weather around on Friday.

Particularly across eastern counties of England. Again there is

the likelihood that this rain could be heavy and possibly thundery.