24/08/2011 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

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He's at large somewhere, and until he as found, with or without a


pulse, the Libyan revolution is unfinished, his 40-year rule is


unquestionably over, but the rebels need proof. In a city with no


single overall control, it is the absence of Colonel Gaddafi which


drives on the uprising. Our correspondent has been on the


streets of Tripoli. Don't be fooled by all of this celebration. Just


take a look at what lies on the ground here. All of these bullet


casings. This place exploded in celebration, literally.


Women were prominent in the early uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, but


they have been almost invisible in Libya. What will be the fruit of


the Arab Spring for half the population of Arabia.


This is what national service used to mean. It is another cup of tea


all together in David Cameron's scheme. You lot try this one, that


Colonel Gaddafi popped up in a rambling broadcast last night,


claiming he wasn't in hiding, merely making a tactical move,


presumably much like Mussolini's tactical move to a convenient


lampost. His rule in Libya may be over, but his presence or absence


still haunts the country. There is a bountyee of over $1 million on


his head, dead or alive, and a promise of a pardon for anyone who


kills or captures him, until he's taken, the revolution is then


unfinished. That hasn't stopped the celebrations in the centre of


Tripoli, where we have been taking in this the mood. This is Green


Square, renamed martters' square, for all those who lost their lives.


It is a scene of celebration, the families are coming out waving the


old Libyan trib colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. - tri-


colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. Don't be fooled, just look at


what lies on the ground here, all of the bullet casings, this place


exploded in celebration, literally they have been firing off every


possible weapon, including anti- aircraft fire today, to show to


Libyans and to the world that the Libyans have ended Colonel


Gaddafi's 42-year rule. Let's take you into the square. Because look


at the scaffolding, they were already preparing to mark Colonel


Gaddafi's 42 years in power. This is where the stage was going to


celebrate. What lies on the ground was a huge portrait of the


revolutionary leader, it now lies charred in ruins. They tore it


apart, and want to say that Libya is free and they have been chanting


that Colonel Gaddafi is dead. But the big question is, where is he?


The rebels say they have offered a reward if they can get him dead or


alive. That's not stopping them from celebrating. Just look. Listen


to the deafening sound, these were the rampart where is Colonel


Gaddafi used to come to the square to address his people, the masses,


he said, who loved him. He said don't believe the world, my people


love me. You will remember those speeches, those iconic speeches of


this leader who has totally dominated Libya for the past 42


years, and imposed his highly personalised rule, his ideas, which


verged on the outright bizarre sometimes, and tried to have a


revolution that actually people here did not have support.


That was earlier in Tripoli. The rebels, if we should still call


them that, believe that Gaddafi is still hiding out somewhere in the


city. But there is no certainty of his early capture, in the meantime,


can the National Transitional Council impose their authority on


the country. The battle for Tripoli enters its


fourth day, it is not over yet. On Sunday, fighters loyal to Colonel


Gaddafi had seemed to melt away. But they have reappeared, and the


rebels are meeting fierce and stubborn resistance.


Many of these fighters believe the colonel is still somewhere in


Tripoli. The rebel leadership has offered more than a million dollars


for him, dead or alive, a tempting reward for guys like these, but


they would probably be happy to do it for free. This is the house of


Gaddafi, and we are the revolution, we are in the house of Gaddafi,


this is the endpoint. Day after they took the former dictator's


sprawling compound, rebels are still pouring over the spoils. But


it isn't secure. Even here, loyalist snipers have still been


holding out from deep inside. There was good news, though, for the 35


foreigner, most of them journalist, who had been held prisoner inside


the Rixos Hotel. After five day, their guards, turned captors,


finally let them go. I was so worried about you guy, it was the


most awful thing. Most of Libya's main towns and cities are now under


rebel control. Only Sirte, Gaddafi's home town, and Sabha, in


the south, are offering serious resistance to the opposition.


Inside Tripoli itself, there was still shooting coming from inside


the colonel's Bab Al-Aziziya compound. To the south, pro-


Government forces have been firing in the neighbourhoods here. While


the rebel fighters are busy trying to consolidate the gains made in


the last few days. It is the politicians who have the more


daunting task trying to store a sense of normality, and trying to


bring together all the various facets of Libyan society. But at


the moment the leaders of the National Transitional Council


aren't even in Tripoli yet. The interim Prime Minister was in Paris


w a view to releasing some much needed funds. Our work on the


ground is not finished, and the biggest battle has not started yet,


it is the battle of reconstruction. The priority is stability and


security. There is a vast amount to do, basic services, hospital, all


have been hard hit by six months of conflict. But rebuilding Libya will


be difficult, while the new Government is still essentially in


exile. They have to get rid of Gaddafi and


his sons, and his resistance in the area, that is when it will be safe


for them to go to Tripoli. But that will not happen until the security


is guaranteed and until the situation is guaranteed that they


can go in there and function from there.


But the longer they wait, the more potentially dangerous the situation


becomes. Tripoli is awash with armed men, who don't answer to any


unified command structure. The fear is it could turn into a vicious


circle.The Rebels can't secure the peace without establishing a


functioning and inclusive Government that brings in all the


shades of opinion in Libya, the tribe, the region al differences,


the ideolgical differences between Islamists and nationalists. Libya


is one of the most diverse societies in North Africa. Multiple


divisions. Libya is a construct of the early


20th century, when the Italians brought together the three


provinces. They were brought into a single


colony, it is a complicated patchwork of tribal affiliations,


across the country, from Colonel Gaddafi's tribe with the power base


in the town of Sirte, to the powerful tribes around the oil


refiners at Zawiya. It is not that simple. In Benghazi there are large


numbers of people whose allegance belongs to the Misrata tribe, the


wealthy port city hundreds of miles to the west. And it gets more


complicated still. A month ago a rebel commander outside Misrata


explained to me that if his men entered the next town to the west,


without a sufficient contingent of local fighters, they would be met


with resistance, even if they were on the rebel side. Loyalist forces


could continue to put up resistance for some time to come now. Colonel


Gaddafi may have lost his grip on power, but that doesn't mean that


he can't still cause trouble. While he's still at large, his presence


will continue to cast a long shadow over Libya. These are the most


recent pictures that Libyans have seen of the man who ruled their


lives for over four decades. He has now disappeared from view, but the


emotional power of his image remains very strong.


In the minds and imagination of many Libyans this means fear, the


fact that he's out, he's still spewing poison. There is the


potential that he and his sons could easily basically develop and


support and finance an insurgency. Think of what Saddam Hussein did


before his capture. Libya is, of course, not Iraq, for


many reasons, not least because there aren't the bitter sectarian


divisions that dragged Iraq into a vicious civil war. So far, in the


parts of Tripoli that are fully under the rebels control, the mood


is more relaxed than tense. But these are early days.


With us now in the studio, the former Foreign Secretary, David


Owen, we are joined from Washington by the former US Ambassador to NATO.


First let's talk to Benghazi, the foreign affairs spokesman for the


National Transitional Council. What is your first priority there?


first priority is, of course, to provide security and basic needs


for the population. What does that mean in practice? It means to


secure all cities and to put an end to Gaddafi's regime, and his


security forces, and also to work with the international community,


the first meeting we had today, in order to unfreeze some of our


frozen assets abroad. We all know that Tripoli has been under siege


for almost six months, and we have more than two million people in


Tripoli, they are in real need for medicine, fuel, food and other


supplies, these are our priorities for now. Is the plan that you will


push National Transitional Council members in charge of all the


ministries previously under Gaddafi's control? Can you rephrase


your question again please. Is the idea that members of the National


Transitional Council will take over all the individual ministries that


were previously under Gaddafi's control.


The ministries, the people who work in the ministries will remain where


they work, for the ministries, or for the high officials, it depends


if they are accused of being involved in any crimes or


corruption, then they would have to face a fair trial, and this is what


the NTC have been saying. When do you think it will be safe for you


to move to Tripoli? The first delegation moved to Tripoli today.


We have some members of the NTC, we have some members of the executive


office, they are already in Tripoli, and we have an advance team to


prepare a location for the NTC and also to provide and prepare a


residence for the members who are moving from different cities in


Libya to Tripoli. We expect this to happen within two weeks. Thank you


for joining us. Despite all the communication difficulties.


Now, Lord Owen, how big a problem is it that Gaddafi is still


apparently at large somewhere? is a huge problem, psychalogically.


It may not be quite such a big problem in any other way. The real


problem is how do you get the snipers and isolated people to stop


fighting. I think it would be much easier, I don't think it would stop


immediately, but if you got Gaddafi, or you knew exactly where he was,


outside the country, perhaps, it would make a great deal easier to


pacify the country, and stop these isolated groups fighting. I don't


think they come under any real command and control at the moment.


That's the danger of the situation. Volkswagen vok, you heard there the


- You heard there the member of the National Transitional Council, the


main priority was to get the assets unfrozen, the assets Gaddafi got


his hands on and then put beyond his reach by Governments in the


world, would you agree that is the first thing to do? The first thing


he said was security. I agree with him on that, I think security where


the rebels are taking control, preventing retribution killings and


ensuring people are able to go about their business. That is the


key thing. In order for the Transitonal National Council to


function, as an emerging Government, to keep things going in Libya, they


are going to need those kinds of financial resources to pay salaries


of people who have been paid by the Government to think point. Getting


their hands on some of these assets quickly is very important. Is there


a model anywhere for how the National Transitional Council could


go about this extremely difficult job? I have been interested to see


how things are going in Tunisia next door. They also have a


transitional council. They have a different name for it. It is to


ensure the realisation of the objectives of the revolution.


Rather than playing a direct role in governance, they have tried to


ensure there is a long transition process from what had been a


Government run by a dictator, without much public input at all,


to one that receives public input through elections. To play an


oversight role, without a direct governing role without a long


period of time, is rather a good model for the TNC. The most


important thing they have already done is to publish a draft


constitution, so people can see their direction. They promised


election in eight months, that is a short time. Whether they can do it


I'm not so sure. Even more important they have said that none


of the transitional council will stand in those elections. Therefore,


they are much more likely to be seen to be independent, just


working for the unification of Libya. I think they have talked to


a lot of Government supporters, and Governments in the west, and other


Arab Government, and there is a lot of aftermath planning. That is one


advantage of this five to six month process, they have been able to


anticipate and learn from mistakes, I'm not as pessimistic as some


about the transition. I'm modestly optimistic. A lot of people worry


that because they represent so many diverse points of view to what the


country could be like it can't last? These same people are really


the ones against the no-fly zone, who didn't believe NATO could pull


this very difficult operation off, and who have been rather


pessimistic about it all along. I'm not a crazy idealist, it is going


to be a difficult transition, but we watched the mess in Afghanistan


and Iraq and the world really, I think, realises we have to do


better here. What are the lessons for NATO here? Let me just quickly,


your other question, if there weren't a diversity of points of


view, then you would have a problem. It is the fact that you are


bringing people, that is what is going to make it work. For NATO, I


think there is a risk that we make a conclusion here that it worked


out, so NATO must be fine. I think that would be a dangerous


conclusion to reach, at several layer there is are issues we ought


to be concerned about in the alliance, the issue of leadership,


the issue of solidarity, capacities that allies bring to the table, are


they able to take part in military action. In Libya we saw a mission


nominally to protect civilians what made the difference was a few


nations, acting very much on their own, France, the UK, the US and


others, to actually co-ordinate much more closely with the rebels,


to provide trainers, advisers, so they could make a decisive effect


in Libya. NATO wasn't willing to take on that more robust mission,


and not all the countries have the capacity to do so. It is striking


how pathetic some of the NATO countries were? I think there is a


real wake-up call for NATO. The one thing NATO provided was a command


and control infrastructure that allowed America to work effectively


with France and Britain. That is basically it. Only eight countries


out of 28, that is less than a third actually contributed to this


whole thing. And you know, we had Canada involved as well as the


United States, and Norway, who is not an EU member, Poland didn't


participate, nor did Turkey. But never the less, despite all the


problems, and the running out of ammunition after only 11 week noose


the operation, NATO has managed to provide the structure, and that's


why I would say, keep NATO, but it has to be reformed, and seriously.


And any tendency in Europe to say we did this, we did this alone, the


Americans were absolutely crucial in the first three days, with their


civils, over 100, taking out the ground-to-air missiles,


sophisticated air defences, which Gaddafi had. I do think that for


all the problems, the UN resolution, we managed to get China and Russia


not vetoing, and we managed to get an operation, which was constrained.


I think that interventions from now on will be constrained


interventions. We have to work with these limitations. But we held


public opinion in this country, and because it was legal and supported


by the UN. Thank you very much.


The London police released figures today to show they have now


arrested nearly 2,000 people, and charged over 1 100 in connection


with the riots. Part of David Cameron's cure for the problems, is


the national service. He wants the national citizens service to be


available to every teenager. Can it possibly attract young people so


profoundly disaffected. Stephen Smith, who has been


reporting on David Cameron's Big Society for us, had access to key


stages of the scheme. Citizen Smith, what have you done today to make


you feel proud? Picking up a broom, it has been the


caisz of the summer. But do you know what, we were there first.


Like a German holiday maker's towel Conspicuously, this isn't Downing


Street, or the houses of parliament. But this wind-blown rock in the


Lake District, could become a landmark in British politics. This


is one of the places where ministers hope youngsters can be


encouraged to scale the heights in their careers. And their


communities. And to take a different route from young people


of a similar age who were involved in riots earlier this month. So we


have just done climbing, and what I want to do now, is I want you to


think about what happened when we were walking up here, why you were


climbing. I think the hardest thing for me was that hill. Because it is


big and it is long. It is very steep. Get that hill on camera!


This group, all aged 16 and from south London, are on a week's


outward bound trip, as part of David Cameron's National Citizens'


Service. You are meeting strangers, and basically you have to trust


them. What we just did is all about trust and team work. It is like


prison? Yeah. In what way? The bunk beds, there is no signal, you don't


get no signal on your phone. Do you good, some people would say, a bit


of a change? Yeah, I know, it is still boring. I love the. I can't


work it out if you are enjoying it or not? Oh no, I'm enjoying it, I'm


loving it. At the other end of the country,


this is the outskirts of Croydon, where some of those youngsters come


from. This supermarket was burnt It is not far from this bee-loud


corner in southern England. This is where another group of future


national sit ens, who have already been through the outward bound


phase of the scheme, are hoping to do something to benefit locals.


This is the site we want to build our community food learning centre


on. You have got work to do, so bags off, over there.


They want to help Evelyn here, who is passionate about food, to


establish a kitchen and allotments on this site. Though this must be


said, Evelyn is doing most of the work today, the youngsters help out


with the food tasting. Hey, you lot, try this one, that one is nice,


that one is nice. Evelyn, can you seriously fight


rioting with quiche! Well, a lot of them join a gang to keep safe, to


get self-esteem, and to do something. Because there is nothing


to do. Now if you give them something really positive to do,


and they can actually stay at it long enough, it is not just going


away and doing some abseilling, it is not just going way and doing


some camping or something, it is great, it is a treat, but they have


to go home, what to? So I want something, a few more buildings


around where there is something really creative going on, that they


can become part of, bring their mates, and say hands off, we have


helped build that, no mucking about. Do you think this kind of thing


stops people rioting? Definitely, it gets people off the streets and


gives them something to do. What about the kind of hard case guys


who were out doing the rioting here last week, is this going to be


somewhere they will just laugh at, do you think even they could get


involved? You never know, some of the rioters were probably average


Joes, the next door neighbour, they will probably get involved any way.


Others say setting up and running a kitchen here isn't going to be a


walk in the park. Youth volunteers is a great tradition, as a Labour


councillor it is part of the co- operative tradition of working


together. But they need support and help and assistance. That is what


the Big Society is not delivering to an area like this. Quiche


doesn't grow on trees. That is why the teenagers are singing for their


supper, or rather pitching for some funding at this version of TV's


Dragon's Den. The stakes are modest, but the energy isn't. Even old


Duncan Bannatyne might get his chequebook out for this lot, or


maybe not. Good morning ladies and gentlemen,


good food matters was a dream and vision that Evelyn wanted for a


long time. She wanted a place for disadvantaged young people who


wanted the chance to learn about new foods and lead healthy


lifestyles. To raise money for Good Food Matters, we have been taking


part in a triathlon, it has three activities, running, swimming and


cycling. They need to just think


realistically about how many hours they can really commit to this.


dragons, who include representatives of a local council,


and a high Street bank, decide to give the group the �30 or so they


are after, as seed money for their fundraiser.


What do they think about the scheme? And the riots, come to


that? You don't needing to out and start burning shops and taking


things, because there is nothing else to do. That is a short-term


gain, long-term loss, some of those shops won't open again. My friend


would encourage me to do this, if I wasn't in this challenge. My


friends were all out there doing it while I was here. I will be in with


him, that is just how I am. Oh my God. Back in the Lake


District, some white water team building for the south Londoners we


met on the outward bound week of the national citizen source. This


is known as gorging, there isn't so much as a McDonald's in sight.


How useful is the National Citizen Service. With us is the Children's


Minister in the studio in Brighton. And Association of Voluntary


Organisations is with us. What is the theory? This is a


really big idea, it is really transformational, it is about


valuing engaging young people, giving them a stake in society, but


also challenging them as well. It is a personal, social development


programme, it is about getting them volunteering, but also about Rites


of Passage, it is about a transition to adulthood, we do that


badly in this country. And the service is a way of recognising the


great contribution that young people can make and getting them


some respect, if they have been through the challenge that it


offers. There is none of it you would take exception to at a


theoretical level? Any scheme that gets young people out into the


community and volunteering, the question is, is it good enough for


the challenges we have at the moment. There is an inescapably


context we found ourselves at the moment, that is the cuts. Youth


charities throughout the country are getting their funding cut.


Swindon has just cut 100% of its funding to youth voluntary


programmes. Secondly, there is an issue about reach of the programme.


Will the programme get right down to the people who need it the most.


If this programme replaces that which is cut, there is no problem?


There is a problem. This scheme is going to cost, according to a


committee of MPs, �355 million, that's only half of eligible


children taking it up. On the hand you are having that same amount of


money cut from voluntary youth services up and down the country.


Now you have to look at this through the eyes of young people.


If you are a young person who is involved already in a youth


programme, that volunteers every Thursday or weekly, and they see


that scheme cut, and on the other hand they see another big


initiative that lands on the table, they are not going to see it as


that is something from the local service, which have disappeared,


and here is a national programme, they will see this as robbing Peter


to pay Paul. It seems a nuts arrangement minister? It is not


nuts at all. This is something we have been working on for several


years, not something that has come up since the disturbances recently.


This is money that has come in a separate funding scheme from the


Treasury, it is not part of education or youth funding. It is


money going into youth activities. What was wrong with all the


projects you are cutting? We are not cutting the projects, youth


projects are run by councils, and there is a mixed cutting. I'm


trying to bring, from a national perspective, is bring the services


into the 21st century, they are reliant on slugs of money from the


public sector, I want the private sector and local authorities to get


involved in youth services. This is something bigger and better, and


certainly very ambitious indeed, this is also about social mixing,


you heard from those kids who have been on the scheme already. The


feedback from it, I have been there, climbing up walls, I have been


climbing up trees with some of these kids. It is really


challenging and the feedback is positive, very positive. As they


said, they are meeting people they would never have met, they would


never have crossed the road to meet. They are from all different walks


of life. To say that you need something new, when actually we


have youth services out there that have been running for generations,


that have enormous amounts of inherited and institution memories


about how to work with young people and get down deep. This is not a


compulsory scheme, it is a nationwide scheme, so the bigger


issue facing our society at the moment, particularly highlighted by


recent events is how you get to the most dysfunctional. Let's ask the


minister? That is exactly what this is about. If it is voluntary and


you can choose not to take part in it, how do you reach the kids?


tapped into all the expertise delivering services up and down the


country. This isn't something that the Department for Education and


the Government have come up with. We are working with V, with the


Prince's Trust. You have cut those, local authority services which you


have cut, you are working with all these things you have taken money


away from, can you tell u the point was how you encage children if it


is voluntary? By working with the experts. Part of the tendering,


this is delivered not by central Government, this is being delivered


by all sorts of youth services who have an enormous expertise working


with particularly challenging children already. We have Catch 22,


with a great deal of expertise working with kids in the youth


justice system, or who are homeless, who are working with the service,


working alongside Young Devon and Connections in different parts of


the country, mixes up kids from different backgrounds. It won't be


judged by how many middle-class children go to, but how we engage


with people from disabilities and difficult background and people


from the justice system and others. Other schemes don't do that, that


is what it is all about. Answer the question, minister, how do you


engage those who need to be engaged, if the thing is entirely voluntary?


Because this will be such a fantastic scheme, as you are seeing


from the feedback with the kids that go on it, that you will be


crazy not to want to go on it. We can consult with the youth sector,


and that puts a different complexion on the whole thing. This


is something that values young people and young people should


value it too. These young people are going back to friends and


siblings to say sign up for it next year. Does that consort with your


own experience here? There have been so many opportunities for


young people for so long, why would they want to do this and not other


things. We are talking about the people we need to benefit from this


scheme are the very hardest to reach. These are people on the


fringes of society. They are. on a second. These people are on


the fringes of society, business as usual won't get these people


involved. We need to put into context the scale of the programme


being launched today, �355 million to get half of eligible yupgs ters


involved in this, according to a committee of MPs. Who are wrong.


That is the equivalent of all spending from local authorities on


youth services for the entire country. So we are talking about an


enormous grand scheme, that is nationwide, when really all the


evidence is saying at the moment, the problem we need to get to is


very, very focused, even Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new -


Iain Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new policy, and saying it


is going down to individuals, these people won't go out looking for the


opportunities, the opportunities have to come looking for them. They


have to start looking at new ways of getting these high-cost


individuals out into these schemes. It will be tough, and it needs


something that has not been done before. It is happening. I am


afraid this has been done before. The people I have seen on the


schemes, the challenge as a charity delivering about 30% of the place,


70% of the people on the schemes don't engage with the conventional


youth services there already. 20% are kids who qualify for free


school meals and disadvantaged background, from the East End of


London, and Manchester, mixing with kids from rural areas and


independent schools who they wouldn't come across. Thrown in


they weekend, working in teams, they are being challenged and


getting a lot out of it, and so will the country. This is


transformational. The toppling of Colonel Gaddafi has


been presented as the first step in transition to modern, democratic


state. But one look at the National Transitional Council reveals a


glaerg fact. They are nearly all men. The Arab Spring was presented


as bringing freedom to all. It was noticed how many earlier


demonstrators in the centre of Cairo, were in Tahrir Square


instead of being at home cooking the dinner. The expectation was the


end of autocracy would benefit both sexes. It is incredibly


discontented. I don't think we have been where the world is looking at


us. In the beginning it was spring for everyone, women as well as men


on the streets of Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, veiled and bare-headed, a


democratic and feminist Arab awakening.


Six months later, notice a difference. Libya's revolution is


being run almost exclusively by men. It seems women were at the


forefront of the initial protests in Benghazi, women have played a


strong role in the opposition. We don't see a huge representation of


women in the National Transitional Council. It seems clear that women


are in a very small minority. The irony is, before the revolution,


Libya was one of the more equal counties in the Arab world. Women


were better educated than in neighbouring countries, had


maternity benefits and held high- ranking Government positions. Of


course, Colonel Gaddafi always had his personal peccadilloes, there


was the all female team of body guards. And in his famous green


book, a strange lecture on matters But women were always a visible,


vital part of the colonel's Libya. Could that be about to change? In


Tunisia and Egypt, women, not only marched, but were leading the


protests. Everyone wants a new start, so you know, it is just


lovely to be part of it all. Everyone suffered from a different


problem, now we think all our problems will be resolved. Yes. We


are very optimistic now. As the dictators fell, and the


interim Governments came in, women have slowly seen their contribution


swept to one side. In Egypt, for example, there is not one single


women on the committee to rewrite the constitution. It is devastating


for some activists. Unfortunately the way that the country has been


ruled so far doss not really allow for strong participation or


inclusion of women in decision making. We thought that with a new


democratic Egypt this would be over. But we still don't see this


happening. In Tunisia women are feeling the backlash too. Back in


January they Marched together with men, to over- marched together with


men to overthrow Ben Ali. Now this blogger says boys shout at her in


the street, your place is in the kitchen and why does she need more


rights. Some are blaming women, especially the former President's


wife, for the excesses of the regime. The big unknown is how much


power will land in the hands of the religious movements. A recent poll


in tu in this caseia put their Islamist - Tunisia put their


Islamist party in the lead. The Muslim Brotherhood is still strong.


In the struggle for a democratic voice, as spring passes into summer


and autumn, Arab women may find themselves no better off than


during the long winter of the dictators. Let's chew this over now


with a political analyst, who recently spent five months working


with the National Transitional Council in Benghazi, and in New


York with a Middle East commentator. Will it really be a new dawn in


Libya, do you think? I had extremely positive experience, I


just went marching into a city that wasn't mine, without any family,


and there was women involved in every aspect of the revolution from


what I could see. We haven't seen much evidence of women on the


streets, either in Tripoli or Benghazi? On the contrary, I


wouldn't say it was in the stories, but it was present, they were


leading marches, organising themselves, setting up civil


societies, over 100 newspapers were set up, many editorialised by women.


In every aspect of the revolution, from the local councils, the NTC


and cabinet, I worked with women to know detriment with myself. Do you


share the confidence about the advance of women as a consequence


of the Arab Spring? Absolutely, I think the revolution we have seen


on the ground, the revolution of the feet has definitely to be


followed by the revolution of the mind. That, I think, is the key


element that all the countries across the region have to face


sooner or later, and by the revolution of the mind, I mean


recogniseing that we fought a patriarch in the form of the


dictator, and we now need to fight patriarchs within ourselves, within


our families, within our work. But having said that, nothing could be


worse than what people had lived under Gaddafi, Mubarak and Ben Ali.


Under Gaddafi you had social rehabilitation centres, where girls


were dumped in they were victims of sexual abuse or rai. These must


close. There is no doubt in my mind that men, women and children will


live better lives without Gaddafi. This amusing idea that he was some


sort of feminist hero, what do you make of that? That was outrageous,


remember he would go to Italy and tell his pal Berlusconi, so round


up women for him to rescue European women. It was laughable. The


passage we heard from the green book, and this image he had that he


was a feminist because he was surrounded by female body guards.


It was as ludicrous as the First Ladys of many countries, like many


of them claiming their husband was helping women and they were not.


whole heartedly agree with everything that was said. There was


complete nepotism that effected both men and women, nobody advanced


on the merit, if you didn't have a connection to the regime you were


not suitable, not because you were a woman, or a men. Can you really


in your wildest dreams imagine any of these countries having a female


President? I very much hope in the future. There is nothing stopping


me. Is that the same as imagineing? In the past five months I have


walked into the NTC, and working with all these men, nothing stopped


me except coming home for a break. There is nothing stopping any of


the women I have met from having a future role in leading their


country. There is only one woman on the NTC? There is more than one


woman. The entire National Assembly will be elected when it moves to


Tripoli. There is women working on the councils in in the cabinet.


There is women behind civil society uprisings, taking place throughout


the country. While certainly there is a lot of male chest beating


going on in a lot of Arab countries, if you look at the women who are


getting on with the work, they roll their eyes and step aside the need


for any particular camera in their face and just get on with the work.


They are very comfortable with the role they have. Can you imagine a


female President of Egypt? We have a woman running for President.


She's a very well known television presenter. And just before I came


on to the air, I was following her tweets from southern Egypt, she has


tirelessly travelled across the country. She's canvasing more than


any of the male candidates I have heard of. Whether she stands a


chance or not is besides the point, what is more important is she's out


there, meeting people in the most conservative areas of Egypt and


saying what every candidate needs to say, what do you need as an


Egyptian, what do we need to do to make a free Egypt succeed. I would


vote for her. I hope in the next presidential elections we have in


Egypt more than one woman runs. This is just the beginning. It is


only seven months since we finally got rid of Mubarak. We need to work


on the revolution of the mind. We need to persuade Egyptian women and


men, that together, as citizens of Egypt, they must rebuild the


country. That is how we ensure boys and girls, men and women, have


equal trols play in our countries. How long - equal roles to play in


our countries. How long will it take? I don't know, but it took 18


days to get rid of Mubarak, but if it takes the rest of our lives to


make sure this becomes a reality. You are seeing children in Egypt


seeing a woman running for President. Children in Egypt with


their parents telling them remember the Tahrir Square, you are talking


about a generation that is awake, they got rid of a dictator. That


sense of optimisim is addictive, it is inspirational. Knowing the


patriotism in the country, but knowing that we got rid of the


number one patriarch, we can do it, I'm sure.


A look ahead to something coming up tomorrow, when we will have a


special report on the riots from Donal McIntyre, who has been on the


trail of the Manchester looters. Newsnight has exclusive stories


from the Manchester riots, from eyewitnesses, and looters. What did


you get? A TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes.


extraordinary and unpalatable truth is for 12 hours one of the


country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and


out of control. Tomorrow morning's front pages are dominated by


That's all from Newsnight tonight. Tomorrow you will have the pleasure


of Kirsty's company. Until then, Hello, more wet weather around


tonight. In the morning it will be very soggy across parts of north-


east England, the Midlands, this heavy rain gradually working across


East Anglia and the south-east. Particularly in South Wales and the


east of England,-y showers. A fine day in the north, brightening in


the east of the Pennine, some of the coast will stay grey and damp.


The rain will take quite a bit of time before clearing away from Kent.


Brightening up across the home counties, there will be sunny


spells across the south west of England, expect heavy showers with


a risk of hail and thunder, especially on the north coast of


Devon, some of the storms will work into southern parts of Wales.


Elsewhere parts of rain is sunshine and scattered showers, also for


Northern Ireland. Not so many showers across Scotland, some in


the North West, elsewhere it may stay dry with sunshine lifting the


temperature. As for Friday, we are expecting more wet weather to work


across parts of England and Wales, scattered showers for Scotland and


Northern Ireland. But equally there will be a decent A sunshine. In the


south there will be more wet weather around on Friday.


Particularly across eastern counties of England. Again there is


the likelihood that this rain could be heavy and possibly thundery.


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