29/09/2011 Newsnight


29/09/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Tonight, Germany's politicians back the latest bailout plan for the

:00:09.:00:13.

euro. But how worried are the German people that they are signing

:00:13.:00:18.

a blank cheque. First we have had a snowball, the snowball becomes

:00:18.:00:21.

bigger and bigger and bigger, and sometimes it will be an avalanche.

:00:21.:00:25.

You think this is making things worse? Yes, I'm afraid.

:00:25.:00:30.

One of Mrs Merkel's ministers tells Newsnight why her country owes it

:00:30.:00:35.

to the rest of us. 60 years ago it was us who brought war and

:00:35.:00:37.

destruction over Europe, the European people did not chase us

:00:37.:00:42.

away, kick us out. Rio Fredinand loses his privacy

:00:42.:00:47.

case, but is it really a big win for the tabloids. Stephen Mosley

:00:47.:00:51.

and Rio Fredinand's biographer debate how important the judgment

:00:51.:00:57.

is. - max Mosley. In Saudi Arabia a woman driver is

:00:58.:01:03.

spared the lash, is it real reform or a half hearted promise of

:01:03.:01:09.

something some time. Happy St George's Day, now kiss

:01:09.:01:12.

my...Jerusalem, The play that entranceed the critics and

:01:12.:01:16.

delighted audiences is coming back to the London stage. Its star, Mark

:01:16.:01:21.

Rylance, is here to discuss its appeal, and what it tells us about

:01:21.:01:31.
:01:31.:01:32.

being English today. Germany's political class, with

:01:32.:01:35.

some notable exceptions, rallied behind Chancellor Merkel today in

:01:35.:01:41.

voting more money for the continued eurozone bailouts. Like generals

:01:41.:01:44.

still fighting an ancient war, they may have solved last year's

:01:44.:01:47.

problems, how close are they with getting to grips with today's

:01:47.:01:52.

problems and tomorrow. Some forecast this latest move,

:01:52.:01:54.

depending on the generosity of the German tax-payers, will be far from

:01:54.:01:59.

the last. There is clear public anger about that prospect, why are

:01:59.:02:06.

the Germans still enthralled to the European project.

:02:06.:02:09.

The Volkswagen headquarters in Wolfsburg owes everything to that

:02:09.:02:14.

latter day miracle, the German economy. Every day the towers are

:02:14.:02:19.

stacked with new cars, by night fall most of them are empty. People

:02:19.:02:24.

come from everywhere to gawp at the achievements of global industry.

:02:24.:02:28.

This is the most graphic illustration of Germany as Europe's

:02:28.:02:31.

economic powerhouse. For decades that is how Germans have seen

:02:31.:02:35.

themselves. But for the grandchildren of a post-war

:02:36.:02:41.

generation, will success be sustained? Germany may lead Europe,

:02:41.:02:47.

but the euro-bailout leaves many Germans simply baffled. I'm not

:02:47.:02:51.

sure if the system is right or not. When we do a decision, we go on

:02:51.:02:56.

this way, or we go in this way, who knows what is right. You mean this

:02:56.:03:01.

is all too confusing? Sometimes, yes. Do you think that Germany is

:03:01.:03:06.

paying too much at the moment for Europe? Yes, I think so. We are the

:03:06.:03:13.

country who pays the most for the Greeks. Is it possible to get the

:03:13.:03:17.

money back? And in way what way? That is I think is the problem.

:03:17.:03:25.

Just a few hours here in Wolfsburg reinforces the familiar message,

:03:25.:03:31.

Germany's economic prowess has been keeping the European show on the

:03:31.:03:34.

road. But many Germans are wondering about the numbers adding

:03:34.:03:38.

up. Many Germans believe that the poorer nations, Greece and the rest,

:03:38.:03:43.

have been taking them for a ride. Back in Berlin, where the bailout

:03:43.:03:47.

was under debate, business leaders are irate as what they see as basic

:03:47.:03:52.

rules being broken over Greece. the beginning you earn a lot of

:03:52.:03:55.

money with high interest rates. Now you get the feeling that you can't

:03:55.:04:00.

get back your money. And you cry for European Governments that they

:04:01.:04:08.

should take liability. They should bail you out? Yes, indeed. We say,

:04:08.:04:14.

that's liability. For the risks, that is one of the principles of

:04:14.:04:18.

market economy.At The Bundestag, Chancellor Merkel was surviving the

:04:18.:04:22.

challenge to her authority. The bailout was approved, with her

:04:22.:04:25.

budget chairman, telling me this could be just the start. More

:04:25.:04:28.

billions could yet be deployed to help the rescue.

:04:28.:04:33.

It is necessary to do more. much more can be given? It would be

:04:33.:04:42.

wrong to say any number, any figure, any ...It Is a blank cheque? It is

:04:42.:04:47.

not the rise signal, in the markets. Some in Merkel's coalition believe

:04:47.:04:54.

this is all too reckless? But first, we have had a snowball, the

:04:54.:04:57.

snowball becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, sometimes it will be an

:04:57.:05:02.

avalanche. You think this is making things worse? Yes, I'm afraid.

:05:02.:05:06.

While many Germans share this angst and apprehension, even now few will

:05:06.:05:11.

question the euro itself. Germans, even those appalled by the bailouts,

:05:11.:05:15.

are committed to the currency. you look to different European

:05:15.:05:22.

countries, then you see that in other countries we have strong

:05:22.:05:27.

political parties, which are totally against Europe. Luckily we

:05:27.:05:32.

don't have that in Germany yet, but the danger is growing that such a

:05:32.:05:36.

party could come around. You are saying, luckily you don't have it,

:05:36.:05:40.

why is it luckily you don't have it? We believe Europe is a very

:05:40.:05:45.

good project. Our future lies in Europe, in a combined Europe.

:05:46.:05:50.

are no Euro-sceptics in Germany, everybody believes in the project?

:05:50.:05:56.

Yes. The overwhelming majority does. But the risks for this project are

:05:56.:06:01.

growing immensely. So, on a night when a new

:06:01.:06:05.

exhibition of ancient Greek art opens here in Berlin, how to

:06:05.:06:09.

explain the German commitment to keeping modern Europe afloat.

:06:09.:06:12.

think there are many things to say on this. The most prominent thing

:06:12.:06:16.

is, let's call it the historical glue, is falling apart. Germany is

:06:16.:06:20.

unified for 20 years now, this country has profoundly changed, it

:06:20.:06:25.

is coming nicely along, it is a different Republic than the former

:06:25.:06:28.

federal Republic, this structure that we need to be European, the

:06:28.:06:31.

first prize, at any condition, this is fading. What we are discussing

:06:31.:06:36.

now, is yes, Europe, profoundly the German people are profoundly

:06:36.:06:40.

European, we want a price tag, we want to know which Europe, which

:06:40.:06:46.

conditions, at which price. Wolfsburg, the town built on VW and

:06:46.:06:51.

exports, you didn't have to look hard to find true believers and

:06:51.:06:56.

defenders of the faith. The euro was good for Germany, I think, even

:06:56.:07:05.

today, if you didn't have the euro and we had the German currency, the

:07:05.:07:08.

exchanges rate would be high up, and we are not Switzerland and do

:07:08.:07:13.

what they do and say we take it to the euro. The point s Germans

:07:13.:07:17.

remain as tied to the euro as ever, but they are also about to be faced

:07:17.:07:22.

with an economic slowdown, growth next year of just 1.5%. Don't be

:07:22.:07:26.

deceived, there are rougher waters ahead.

:07:26.:07:34.

After the vote was won, I talked with the German minister of labour

:07:34.:07:38.

and social affairs, she's also chairman of the political party of

:07:38.:07:44.

Angela Merkel, the CDU. Doesn't the overwhelming majority in the

:07:44.:07:47.

Bundestag, behind Chancellor Merkel's plan, suggest you have

:07:47.:07:50.

been too calm and cautious, you could have had the vote and pushed

:07:50.:07:55.

harder and faster? No, we have to go step by step. Because we realise

:07:55.:07:59.

now that we haven't been talking enough about where we want to go

:07:59.:08:03.

with Europe, and what the consequences out of the crisis are.

:08:03.:08:07.

During the last eight years we have been talking a lot about

:08:07.:08:11.

regulations of lightbulbs and cucumbers, but not about the values

:08:11.:08:16.

we defend in Europe. That is the time now to make sure we want to go

:08:16.:08:20.

forward with Europe, we did make mistakes, we have to learn our

:08:20.:08:24.

lessons and get further towards integration in Europe. But I wonder

:08:24.:08:30.

if there aren't two Germans and two Berlins speaking today. There is

:08:30.:08:33.

the people inside the Bundestag, who have clearly an idea of Europe,

:08:33.:08:37.

but there is the people outside, the ordinary voters of Germany, who

:08:37.:08:41.

are sceptical and some of them angry that you will be back again,

:08:41.:08:46.

and again, and again for more money? I understand that people are

:08:46.:08:51.

worried. We have a deep crisis, we are not at the end of the crisis.

:08:51.:08:56.

But what was necessary is the process to realise that the problem

:08:56.:09:02.

began ten years ago, when we started with our single currency,

:09:02.:09:05.

the euro, which was the right decision, but we didn't fulfil it.

:09:06.:09:12.

We just said we want a common currency, but we don't want common

:09:12.:09:15.

discipline. Where budgets are concerned. We gave ourselves rules

:09:15.:09:20.

but we broke the rules. We broke the limits for debts and now we are

:09:20.:09:26.

in the process to say we have to have more discipline in Europe, we

:09:26.:09:32.

need a central European player who controls those rules that are not

:09:32.:09:36.

to be broken. That is the way we are now. How do you respond to the

:09:36.:09:39.

argument that maybe today you solved last year's problem, and now

:09:39.:09:44.

it is even worse, and for the German voters they see figures,

:09:44.:09:49.

maybe a trillion euros will be needed or two trillion euros, they

:09:49.:09:54.

will think maybe they are signing a blank cheque to people who have not

:09:54.:09:59.

had that discipline? We have realised now that the way to get

:09:59.:10:07.

into debt was slowly but surely not sticking to the Maastricht rules.

:10:07.:10:12.

For the European people, for the German people, it was a process to

:10:12.:10:19.

realise we have to give up some sovereignity, if we want to fulfil

:10:19.:10:26.

Europe, that is to make sure we have fiscal discipline, so the euro

:10:26.:10:32.

is stable but also the values of Europe stable. In Germany we do

:10:32.:10:39.

have a long history with Europe. 60 years ago it was us who brought war

:10:39.:10:46.

and destruction over Europe the European people did not chase us

:10:46.:10:50.

away or kick us out. They gave us a hand to stand up again to become

:10:50.:10:53.

competitive. Today we in Germany are strong, that is what we have to

:10:53.:10:59.

remember. We are strong now, we can give solidarity, but we need to

:10:59.:11:05.

implement subsidiarity too, that is the goal right now. This mixture of

:11:05.:11:09.

solidarity, with clear rules, and subsidiarity, is the right way to

:11:10.:11:19.
:11:20.:11:23.

I'm joined from Berlin by Professor Markus Kerber, one of a group of

:11:23.:11:28.

German activists who has used court challenges to try to stop the

:11:28.:11:32.

bailouts. You have heard one view there that today's vote was a

:11:32.:11:37.

triumph for European solidarity, you also heard the view that it was

:11:37.:11:41.

good Germany money thrown after bad? As you know from my different

:11:41.:11:46.

statements, I consider the bailout policy as totally inadequate to

:11:46.:11:51.

solve the fundamental problems of the eurozone. You can't come over

:11:51.:11:59.

the discrepancy of some countries being competitive, others being

:11:59.:12:02.

uncompetitive by sovereign debt crisis. Nothing will be improved in

:12:02.:12:05.

Greece, Ireland and Portugal, simply by subsidising these

:12:05.:12:09.

countries. As a matter of fact, Greece has been subsidised heavily

:12:09.:12:13.

for more than 0 years through the European, regional and structural

:12:13.:12:19.

fund. You know the result. So we simply are horrified by the vision

:12:19.:12:26.

that at the moment, where this bailout is, or the beefed up

:12:26.:12:31.

European financial FA - European Financial Stability Facility is

:12:31.:12:39.

voted, some of these professional euro rescuers in Brussels or

:12:39.:12:43.

elsewhere, mention the possibility, or the probability of enlarging the

:12:43.:12:47.

fund. That means they don't have any intellectual devices to fight

:12:47.:12:50.

that crisis. They say, very clearly, there is no alternative. We have

:12:50.:12:54.

just heard from the minister there, that Germany has a duty to do this,

:12:54.:13:04.
:13:04.:13:05.

you have to do it? Well, this is almost outrageous do compare the

:13:05.:13:09.

war crimes of Germany with the poor fiscal governance of Greece. This

:13:09.:13:16.

is a blessing to the millions of victims, which are a chip on our

:13:16.:13:21.

shoulder. I find the comments of the minister most despicable. This

:13:21.:13:26.

has got nothing to do with it. If we acted to, if we want to step

:13:26.:13:33.

forward, it is - if we want to acted to, we want to step forward

:13:33.:13:39.

in a proper way. She is a medical doctor and has not the foggiest

:13:39.:13:44.

idea of the euro problems. We need to deal in a legitimate policy that

:13:44.:13:49.

claims to be without alternative. Violation of the law is

:13:49.:13:52.

never...Sorry To interrupt, you were thrown out by the

:13:52.:13:58.

constitutional court? No, we lost a legal battle concerns, the first

:13:58.:14:03.

European Financial Stability Facility. Now we have a beefed up

:14:03.:14:08.

European Financial Stability Facility. And this can be very

:14:08.:14:11.

easily the object of another legal challenge. I remind you of the fact

:14:11.:14:15.

that my group has another challenge in the European Court of Justice,

:14:15.:14:22.

because we sued Mr Trichet for his totally illegal quantitative easing

:14:22.:14:26.

policy, turning the European Central Bank into a bad bank.

:14:26.:14:30.

Distorting competition on the capital markets, and putting so

:14:30.:14:35.

much risk into the euro system that sooner or later we will have a

:14:35.:14:39.

total collapse. The legal battle begins, the political battle

:14:39.:14:47.

continues, and there is no German guilt that could motivate the

:14:47.:14:54.

illogical and economic policy laid out by Chancellor Merkel. You raise

:14:54.:14:57.

the political issue, when do you think the patience of the German

:14:57.:15:01.

voters will run out with this? The politicians, the mainstream

:15:01.:15:03.

politicians are saying, most Germans want this, they want the

:15:04.:15:09.

euro to survive. This is the only way we can do it? This is totally

:15:09.:15:13.

contrary to the polls, 85% of the Germans disapprove the bailout

:15:13.:15:18.

policy. There are still a number of Germans who say we have helped

:15:18.:15:22.

Greece once, now we have started the first umbrella euro rescue in

:15:22.:15:29.

May, June, 2010, now we are going to beef it up, creating raw tools

:15:29.:15:33.

and allowing the fund and the primary markets to be totally

:15:33.:15:39.

uncompetitive with the pro-hib Biggs of monetary financing data.

:15:39.:15:43.

Some politicians say we need more money, sooner or later popular

:15:43.:15:51.

common sense will bring a limit to the unintelligent eurorescuers who

:15:51.:15:57.

have nothing else to offer, but more debt. More debt will not solve

:15:57.:16:01.

the fundamental problem of the eurozone, which is economic

:16:01.:16:07.

divergance, we are a split between the north and south. That can only

:16:07.:16:12.

be overcome by a monetary split of the eurozone, which reshapes it and

:16:12.:16:15.

gives Greece, Portugal, Ireland and perhaps other countries, the

:16:15.:16:19.

monetary freedom back, the monetary sovereignity back to enable them to

:16:19.:16:29.

make devaluation and to catch up. The footballer, Rio Fredinand, lost

:16:29.:16:35.

a high-profile privacy case in the High Court today. The winsers were

:16:35.:16:42.

Mirror Group newspapers, it had exploits of his sex life. It is

:16:42.:16:48.

seen as a victory for free speech over celebrity. Why did the judge

:16:48.:16:52.

appear to take the decision? This in way, the judge said this was a

:16:52.:16:56.

classic kiss and tell in some respects. A woman who claimed to

:16:56.:16:59.

have a 13-year relationship with Rio Fredinand, the former England

:16:59.:17:04.

capital, sold her story to the Sunday mirror for �16,000. Rio

:17:04.:17:08.

Fredinand himself this was a gross invasion of his privacy, and took

:17:08.:17:11.

action. The judge had to decide between two balancing things. His

:17:11.:17:16.

right to privacy on the one hand, under Article 8 of the Human Rights

:17:16.:17:21.

Act, and the newspapers' freedom of expression, under Article 10. Why

:17:21.:17:24.

did the judge come down on the side of the newspaper, he said there

:17:24.:17:28.

were very specific circumstances about the background to this story.

:17:28.:17:33.

You may remember that Rio Fredinand's predecessor, as England

:17:33.:17:39.

manager, John Terry, he was actually sacked by Fabio Capello

:17:40.:17:45.

for alleged misdemeanors in his private life. I spoke to the media

:17:45.:17:49.

lawyer today about this background. There is a public interest element.

:17:49.:17:53.

Once that is engaged, and not just by Fabio Capello, but also the

:17:53.:17:57.

chief executive of the FA, and also the minister of sport. There was a

:17:57.:17:59.

wider public debate about whether or not Terry should have been

:18:00.:18:05.

sacked for that. Once Rio Fredinand takes the role, he is implicitly

:18:06.:18:10.

saying I'm man of unimpeachable behaviour, therefore I'm fit to

:18:10.:18:14.

wear the England armband. If that proves to be untrue, as it has been

:18:14.:18:19.

shown, then what the newspaper is entitled to do is contribute to

:18:19.:18:23.

that debate. I suppose the big question, which you implied in your

:18:23.:18:26.

answer, is there is specific answers here, whether this is one

:18:26.:18:31.

judgment, one case, or whether we draw some wider lesson from it?

:18:31.:18:36.

There has been an assumption after the phone hacking scandal that we

:18:36.:18:41.

would see some general clampdown on tabloid journalistic standards,

:18:41.:18:45.

more privacy cases, for example. I don't think that is clear. The

:18:45.:18:47.

hacking scandal really centre on criminality, hacking phones is

:18:47.:18:51.

simply against the law. Those cases are quite clear cut. Privacy cases

:18:51.:18:56.

are some what different. The Rio Fredinand case centres very much on

:18:56.:18:59.

the specifics of the case in terms of the public interest. You may

:18:59.:19:03.

remember in 2008, Max Mosley, we will hear from him, one case in the

:19:03.:19:06.

British courts saying his privacy had been invaded, the judge

:19:06.:19:11.

supported him in that. I think now it is too early to say this is a

:19:11.:19:15.

watershed moment. Afterall, the public interest is key, if every

:19:15.:19:19.

single tabloid newspaper had to justify every single-sex scandal on

:19:19.:19:25.

the basis of the public interest, they may be struggling. I'm joined

:19:25.:19:32.

by Max Mosley, who has become a strong campaigner on privacy issues,

:19:32.:19:38.

and the biographer of the book on Ferdinand. How do you see this, in

:19:38.:19:41.

the Mirror people will be very happy with this judgment? It is a

:19:41.:19:46.

brief respite for the tabloids, that is all it is. Times are

:19:46.:19:56.
:19:56.:19:57.

changing, even in the last couple of years since Max's case. The

:19:57.:20:01.

whole ethos has been rocked by the hacking cases and the types of

:20:01.:20:06.

cases brought by Max and others. The Mirror has won this one, but

:20:06.:20:10.

the only winners are the lawyers. I can't see this being any emphatic

:20:10.:20:14.

victory for newspapers. I don't think it will make a big difference.

:20:14.:20:17.

The biggest differences will happen in the circulations that are

:20:17.:20:20.

plummeting, and the newspapers themselves, whether they survive

:20:20.:20:24.

will be down to those factors. do you see t there is one way of

:20:24.:20:28.

reading it, it is a bit of a setback for privacy and that

:20:28.:20:31.

campaign and a victory for the tabloids? Only in a limited sense.

:20:31.:20:37.

In the end, it depended on its particular facts and the judge's

:20:37.:20:42.

assessment of the facts. That for example Rio Fredinand had held

:20:42.:20:46.

himself up to be somebody of impecable moral standing, a good

:20:46.:20:50.

family man and so on, so the judge attributed importance to that.

:20:50.:20:55.

Personally I wouldn't, I would say as long as he plays football as

:20:55.:20:58.

well as he should the rest is nobody else's business, that is my

:20:58.:21:02.

view. The problem is nobody nowadays can actually sue for

:21:02.:21:05.

privacy, once the story is out, you can never get it made private again.

:21:05.:21:10.

Worse than that, if you sue, it actually costs you money even if

:21:10.:21:13.

you won. If Rio Fredinand had won the case he would have been out of

:21:13.:21:20.

pocket. I was out of pocket with mean despite earning record damages.

:21:20.:21:24.

Some people can afford to do it, some people can't? Exactly, that is

:21:24.:21:28.

what is so wrong. It is completely wrong, even if you have the money,

:21:28.:21:32.

that you should end up out of pocket if you win a case. What is

:21:32.:21:36.

outrageous is 90% of the population couldn't bring a case at all. They

:21:36.:21:39.

have stopped the conditional fee arrangements, which was the one way

:21:39.:21:44.

a person with limited means could bring a case. There is nothing to

:21:44.:21:48.

replace it. So people have no right to justice. This one victory for

:21:48.:21:52.

the Mirror isn't going to change people's perceptions of the

:21:52.:21:56.

tabloids now. Which is sinking fast. I have just written a book called

:21:56.:22:00.

Tabloid Tricks, which is all about the sort of things that I used to

:22:00.:22:06.

get up to as a tabloid journalist, many years before phone hacking.

:22:06.:22:09.

These days it is all out in the open. The case with Ferdinand is

:22:09.:22:14.

different, in a sense, this woman, who decided to tell all, went to a

:22:14.:22:17.

newspaper, voluntarily decided to do it, after the end of her

:22:17.:22:21.

relationship. To be fair, she had the right, if she wished to do it.

:22:21.:22:24.

Even though it breaches somebody else's right, that is the balance?

:22:24.:22:27.

I think we are talking about his fame and whether he should be

:22:27.:22:31.

captain and whether that affected t I think it is about the woman's

:22:31.:22:36.

right. I'm not clear how, not this case, necessarily, but hacking and

:22:36.:22:40.

all these things, have affected the culture within the tabloids?

:22:40.:22:45.

Without doubt, they are terrified. Of what? Prison, probably!

:22:45.:22:47.

irony, at the moment, is phone hacking meant they could get

:22:47.:22:51.

stories without ever having to leave the office, now they are not

:22:51.:22:55.

leaving the office because they are afraid of doing anything to get

:22:55.:22:59.

into trouble. The other argument is to say that you target a particular

:22:59.:23:03.

celebrity, because you find interesting things about him or her

:23:03.:23:06.

sex life. You publicise t and you say that person was a role model,

:23:06.:23:11.

or should have been a role model. You could say that about almost

:23:11.:23:15.

anyone? In the judgment, the judge makes it clear that just because

:23:15.:23:18.

you are famous doesn't mean your sex life can be debated or

:23:18.:23:22.

discussed in public. Of course, the role model argument, actually a lot

:23:22.:23:25.

of confused thinking there. If somebody is a role model, people

:23:25.:23:29.

copy them. You wouldn't want to do something bad. But if you tell the

:23:29.:23:33.

world they are doing something bad, the world tend to copy T it is

:23:33.:23:37.

exactly the opposite of the effect you want. There is a weird logic to

:23:37.:23:43.

that, I agree. In Max's case, he wasn't a famous personality, to be

:23:43.:23:47.

fair to you. Therefore, I see these cases is so different. I think we

:23:47.:23:53.

have seen a whole shrew of cases going against the - slew of cases

:23:53.:23:59.

going against the tabloids, trust me on this, the rest of them won't

:23:59.:24:05.

go against it. The type of journalist, it will continue. Hugh

:24:05.:24:10.

Grant has talked a lot about it, he is to some people a role model, to

:24:10.:24:14.

others a great actor? This is a thin defence, that is my way of

:24:14.:24:19.

looking at it. This is another brick in the wall for the tabloids,

:24:19.:24:22.

isn't it? Even if they are celebrating? Yes, it is another

:24:22.:24:26.

brick in the wall, I have already said it is a brief respite, they

:24:26.:24:32.

are going to - I don't know if they will be here in the next ten years.

:24:32.:24:37.

I don't relish that, times are changing, everything around us is

:24:37.:24:40.

changing and communications are changing. People are beginning to

:24:40.:24:43.

realise the role model argument is completely speechless, then there

:24:43.:24:46.

is the hypocrisy argument, that is also speechless, you should analyse

:24:46.:24:50.

it. The tabloids are in the wrong in this debate, they are the only

:24:50.:24:53.

ones with a voice, the rest of us can hardly ever answer. The fact of

:24:53.:24:57.

the matter, what they are doing is confusing the issue, a fundamental

:24:57.:25:00.

thing is that if you sue for breach of privacy, once it is out in the

:25:00.:25:06.

open, you will never, ever get a proper remedy. The remedy is to

:25:06.:25:10.

stop the thing being published in the first place. With Rio Fredinand,

:25:10.:25:14.

was he wise to push this? I don't think he was very wise to push it.

:25:14.:25:18.

I'm sure a lot of lawyers pushed him into it. I have to say now, he

:25:18.:25:21.

has created more publicity about the case by unfortunately deciding

:25:21.:25:25.

to take legal action. That isn't a defence from doing it. But I just

:25:25.:25:32.

feel he has lost on all counts. Thank you very much.

:25:32.:25:37.

Even the restrictive and highly conservative society of Saudi

:25:37.:25:43.

Arabia is not immune from the ripples of the Arab Spring. King

:25:43.:25:48.

Abdullah's decision to prevent a woman driver from being lashed. It

:25:48.:25:51.

follows the budget that women will be allowed to vote. Millions of

:25:51.:25:54.

Saudi men who have the right to vote don't bother, because there is

:25:54.:25:59.

no elective parliament. So is Saudi Arabia truly on the cusp of real

:25:59.:26:09.
:26:09.:26:15.

With turmoil all around it in the Middle East, which way is Saudi

:26:15.:26:19.

Arabia heading? The turns in its policy towards women betray a

:26:19.:26:26.

divided society, and uncertain leadership. When a few brave women

:26:26.:26:31.

seized the steering wheel this year, in the only country in the world

:26:31.:26:33.

where female driving was banned, they were mostly cautioned and

:26:33.:26:38.

ignored by police. This week one was sentenced to ten lashes. A

:26:38.:26:43.

decision now revoked by King Abdullah. To the delight of the

:26:43.:26:46.

fellow campaigner who took to the road this summer. We were so happy

:26:46.:26:51.

to hear it, as the king interfered in such a thing, that is a clear

:26:51.:26:57.

message to everybody, don't punish women for doing that. And that

:26:57.:27:00.

means that driving is legal, actually it is not illegal to drive

:27:00.:27:06.

a car. The king's decision came just days

:27:06.:27:11.

after his announcement that Saudi women will have the vote in

:27:11.:27:15.

municiple elections, the only ones the kingdom allows, from 2015. It

:27:15.:27:19.

is part, he implied, of a wider commitment to social reform.

:27:19.:27:23.

TRANSLATION: We refuse to marginalise the role of women, in

:27:23.:27:27.

every aspect of Saudi society. there is a long way to go. As

:27:27.:27:32.

Newsnight reported from saud dough Arabia, earlier this year, - Saudi

:27:32.:27:36.

Arabia, earlier this year, radio and TV newsrooms are one of the

:27:36.:27:40.

only places women are allowed to work alongside men. They need

:27:40.:27:44.

permission of a male guardian for almost all public activity. There

:27:44.:27:54.
:27:54.:27:56.

is no sign of judicial reform. King Abdullah, if he was serious

:27:56.:28:03.

about reform, he would have said, "I am going to do a serious reform

:28:03.:28:11.

of the judiciary". The judicial, with the 700 judges. And mostly,

:28:11.:28:17.

dominated by the Wahhabi religious establishment, is the biggest

:28:17.:28:21.

obstacle to women's rights, full rights of citizenship in Saudi

:28:21.:28:31.
:28:31.:28:34.

Arabia. But it's not just clerics, this

:28:34.:28:39.

Saudi woman has become famous for her part in a campaign called My

:28:39.:28:42.

Guardian Knows Best. TRANSLATION: It is just the liberals who don't

:28:43.:28:46.

agree, I don't know what they want. Do they just expect a woman to live

:28:46.:28:50.

without a man? Any so-called liberal I have spoken to has left

:28:50.:28:58.

his wife at home, and it is only other women he wants to liberate.

:28:58.:29:04.

King Abdullah has made a few small steps to advance women's rights, a

:29:04.:29:08.

co-educational university, a female deputy minister, but he's 87 and in

:29:08.:29:12.

poor health. Unlikely to win a battle for change against

:29:12.:29:19.

conservative clerics and hardliners in his own family. Nine years ago,

:29:19.:29:26.

Crown Prince Abdullah, at the time, now king, has said that women, with

:29:26.:29:34.

many conditions, could be driving cars. Women were very elated about

:29:34.:29:40.

this announcement. Two days later his half brother, minister of

:29:40.:29:45.

interior, Prince Niaf, still a minister of interior, said the

:29:45.:29:50.

announcement in the newspapers Saudi women will never, never be

:29:50.:29:58.

allowed to drive cars. Prince Niaf, who some believe may

:29:58.:30:03.

eventually become king, says he sees no need for elections either,

:30:03.:30:10.

let alone women MPs. Meanwhile, even a decree this year to allow

:30:10.:30:18.

women to work in lingerie shops, preventing customers from buying

:30:18.:30:24.

their bras from male assistants was denied. In this most conservative

:30:24.:30:28.

of kingdoms, butressed by its oil wealth, whatever the direction of

:30:28.:30:32.

travel, movement is certain to be slow.

:30:32.:30:38.

Abeer Mishkhas is a Saudi who works for the newspaper Asharq Lal-Awsat,

:30:38.:30:43.

and we have a Sudanese commentator and writer on Muslim women issues

:30:43.:30:47.

who has also lived in Saudi Arabia. How significant do you think the

:30:47.:30:51.

question of maybe women getting the vote, and the way the king stepped

:30:51.:30:54.

in about the woman to be lashed, how important is that? It is very

:30:54.:30:59.

important. The vote, especially, is really an important issue. It means

:30:59.:31:02.

that women finally are getting into the political process and being

:31:02.:31:08.

part of T after years and years of being marginalised, now they are

:31:08.:31:13.

being taken seriously and will be given a role. Now, how significant

:31:13.:31:16.

that role will be depends on the women themselves, they really have

:31:16.:31:21.

to fight to keep what they get right now. How do you see it?

:31:21.:31:26.

is definitely something afoot in Saudi Arabia, three things in

:31:26.:31:28.

succession have happened, the women to drive campaign, the right of

:31:28.:31:33.

women to vote in four years time, and this recent decision to commute

:31:33.:31:38.

the lashing of a woman who had dared to drive, in the past few

:31:38.:31:44.

weeks. However, these are all things that have been hypothetical,

:31:44.:31:47.

nothing has actually happened in real life. Nothing tangible has

:31:47.:31:50.

taken place. Do you think the reaction is to the Arab Spring,

:31:50.:31:54.

that the king and others around him feel they have to do something?

:31:54.:31:57.

Undoubtedly there is a feeling in Saudi Arabia that something needs

:31:57.:32:02.

to happen and needs to be done. I think the Royal Family is slightly

:32:02.:32:06.

panicking about how to pre-empt any kind of serious opposition to it.

:32:06.:32:10.

But, so far we're hearing a lot of words, but no action. Is that a

:32:10.:32:15.

fair point, and also on the voting question, Saudi men could vote

:32:15.:32:18.

today, but many don't bother to register because you can't vote for

:32:18.:32:21.

a parliament, you can vote for local councils, but half of those

:32:21.:32:24.

members are appointed any way. There doesn't seem much point, it

:32:24.:32:28.

seems a process without any result? You are right, I think a lot of men

:32:28.:32:32.

they are not showing up in the polls today. But the thing is I

:32:33.:32:36.

think women will take it as a challenge, because they have been

:32:36.:32:39.

deprived of that right before. And now they want to prove a point, and

:32:39.:32:43.

I think it is going to be significant. I think they are going

:32:43.:32:47.

to make a difference. Is the driving question, is that a big

:32:47.:32:52.

practical issue, or is it just a symbol of something? It is both,

:32:52.:32:58.

actually. It is a very, it is an issue that touches every woman in

:32:58.:33:02.

sud Saudi Arabia. It is really hard to - Saudi Arabia, it is really

:33:02.:33:08.

hard to be able to move around. For a lot of women who have been

:33:08.:33:11.

commenting on the king's latest decrees, they are saying driving

:33:11.:33:15.

can wait a little bit. These issues, we have lots of issues that have to

:33:15.:33:19.

come first, we have priorities, and driving can wait a little bit.

:33:19.:33:26.

would be a real concrete change. You said all these things and nice

:33:26.:33:30.

words, and things are moving. What would be an important change?

:33:30.:33:33.

real concrete change would be to issue licenses to Saudi women, and

:33:33.:33:38.

allow them to drive. That would be something that would be very

:33:38.:33:42.

tangible and erode some scepticism, but there hasn't been any kind of

:33:42.:33:45.

example, physically, where anything has been done. And one thing I

:33:45.:33:48.

would like to mention about the elections, it is in four years time,

:33:48.:33:52.

before women can vote, anything can happen in four years. The current

:33:52.:33:57.

king is very frail, he's old, his successor is older than him, and

:33:57.:34:05.

also quite frail, and the second in line to the throne, Prince Niaf, as

:34:05.:34:09.

mentioned, is very conservative, and has mentioned in the past he's

:34:09.:34:13.

against women voting and against elections, full stop. Four years a

:34:13.:34:16.

long time when you have two octogenarian leaders and one

:34:16.:34:21.

waiting in the wings with a much more conservative bent. What do you

:34:21.:34:24.

make of in the report we heard what would change things profoundly

:34:25.:34:29.

would be reform of the judiciary, the guardianship law, and that sort

:34:29.:34:34.

of thing, is that on the cards? it is talked about a lot, talked

:34:34.:34:39.

about in newspapers, there is a lot of talk about it. Especially the

:34:39.:34:42.

lashing case today, people started talking about how the judiciary

:34:42.:34:46.

should be reformed again. But the thing is, things are happening

:34:46.:34:50.

really slowly. I think people would want to see changes much quicker

:34:50.:34:55.

than that. Isn't there, though an implicit bargain in the society

:34:55.:34:59.

between the Royal Family and the religious leaders, and that is very

:34:59.:35:02.

difficult to bring about the reforms without irritating many of

:35:02.:35:05.

the religious leaders, so it is not going to happen? It is not only the

:35:05.:35:09.

religious leaders. You have to consider that Saudi Arabia is a

:35:09.:35:13.

very conservative company. A lot of people - country, a lot of people

:35:13.:35:19.

take things differently. A lot of people, driving is, in the

:35:20.:35:23.

westernised life, people shouldn't be thinking about it, they want

:35:23.:35:28.

segregation all the time. It is also people in the society that

:35:28.:35:32.

have to be, there is always two sides fighting really in that

:35:32.:35:38.

society. You suggested in a degree of pessimism about this. How do you

:35:38.:35:43.

think this will play out over the next five years? It is not

:35:43.:35:49.

pessimism it is scepticism, anything can happen in the next

:35:49.:35:53.

five years. If there is a legitimate and earnest desire for

:35:53.:35:56.

change in the Royal Family that will filter down. If it is tokenism,

:35:56.:36:01.

and the king trying to create a good legacy for himself, it has

:36:01.:36:04.

shallow roots and we will find ourselves in the same position four

:36:04.:36:08.

years from now. I heard a Saudi rain interviewed on the radio today,

:36:08.:36:13.

he said if you give women the right to drive it will be mini-skirts

:36:13.:36:17.

next and the end of the society? Some people will think that, I know

:36:17.:36:21.

that. The problem is society has to accept it. And I can tell, I don't

:36:21.:36:24.

know, a lot of people following Saudi know that women now go out on

:36:25.:36:27.

the street more than they did before. Now they go out driving,

:36:28.:36:32.

every day there is a case of this woman going out driving. So I think

:36:32.:36:35.

slowly the society will accept the fact that women will be out there

:36:35.:36:38.

behind the wheel and just doing their own things.

:36:38.:36:43.

Thank you very much. Now, one of the biggest hits on the

:36:43.:36:47.

London stage for years, Jerusalem, is about to make a return after an

:36:47.:36:51.

award-winning stint on Broadway. The play was critically acclaimed

:36:51.:36:57.

and much loved by audiences, as was Mark Rylance, in the central role

:36:57.:37:01.

of Johnny Byron. I will talk to him about what the play means about

:37:01.:37:04.

Englishness, and about his reputation as arguably the graith

:37:05.:37:07.

greatest English actor of his generation.

:37:07.:37:12.

Mark Rylance has been called everything from a genius to an

:37:12.:37:15.

eccentric, perhaps in the theatre the one implies a bit of the other.

:37:15.:37:21.

His career as an actor, theatre director, and writer, led to a

:37:21.:37:28.

string of awards and extraordinary accolades, Al Pacino said he made

:37:28.:37:32.

Shakespeare sound as if the Bard had written the words for him the

:37:32.:37:40.

night before. Rylance was the first artistic director of the revived

:37:40.:37:44.

Globe Theatre, which some predicted would be some kind of theme park

:37:44.:37:49.

disSAS te, but Rylance proved them wrong, and turned it into a beloved

:37:49.:37:53.

- disaster, but Rylance proved them wrong and turned it into a boufd

:37:53.:37:59.

institution. The play is very English - beloved institution. The

:37:59.:38:04.

play is very English. Written by Jez Butterworth, Rylance

:38:04.:38:12.

was immediately drawn to the role of the wanted wildman of the woods,

:38:12.:38:17.

Jonny Rooster Byron. You called him a force of nature like a dragon or

:38:17.:38:22.

forest fireworks Rooster is a liar, drug dealer, waster, holding court

:38:22.:38:25.

in a rundown caravan in wilt shirk railing against the authorities who

:38:25.:38:32.

want to move him on. Happy St George's Day, now kiss my begger

:38:32.:38:37.

arse, you puritans. Part of the appeal is that Jerusalem is a comic

:38:37.:38:42.

tale from the edges of society. Pot-smoking hoodies, soulless

:38:42.:38:46.

housing estates, tedious bureaucrats. Murder She Wrote...It

:38:46.:38:53.

Is the deeper themes of the meaning of Englishness, now in the 21st

:38:53.:38:58.

century, pasturised modern Britain, that have engaged the critics and

:38:58.:39:01.

the audiences. Mark is with me now. I will ask you the most difficult

:39:01.:39:05.

question first, why does that play strike such a chord, it is

:39:05.:39:08.

difficult to figure out sometimes, you must have thought about it?

:39:08.:39:12.

suppose I have. I have never been in a play where I have left the

:39:12.:39:16.

theatre at night and found people sleeping on the concrete outside

:39:16.:39:20.

the theatre to get in. It seems the people are hungry for something,

:39:20.:39:30.

and the play feeds that hunger. Jez describes it as a battle of logos

:39:30.:39:36.

and mythos, he says logos is the thing of needing to eat, you need

:39:36.:39:41.

to distract the animal, you hit it on the head and hopefully we can

:39:41.:39:46.

eat, it doesn't work for a long time and you get logos, when you do

:39:46.:39:52.

eventually get to eat, you get mythos, that is the why are we here,

:39:52.:39:56.

what does that mean, where do did we come from and where did we go.

:39:56.:40:00.

The culture at the moment is compressing us to be so logical all

:40:00.:40:03.

the time, all the economic problems. Everyone has debts, you don't want

:40:03.:40:07.

to think about it all the time. It seems like the pressure on people

:40:07.:40:12.

is to be logical and functional all the time, there is a great hunger

:40:12.:40:15.

for something more mysterious. friend of mine said to me before we

:40:15.:40:20.

came on, you know, the character you play is the sort of dodgy bloke

:40:20.:40:25.

that every one of us knows a bit of. You see in the dodgy pub you drank

:40:25.:40:30.

in as a teenager but you don't want to go in any more. There is

:40:30.:40:34.

something about that, that strike as chord? That is why I took the

:40:34.:40:39.

part, I was very impressed by people like that on the edge of

:40:39.:40:43.

town when I was growing up. grew up in the suburbs? In America

:40:43.:40:48.

I grew up, I also spend my summers in Kent. I was always very struck

:40:48.:40:52.

when I would come back from the Midwest of America, surrounded by

:40:52.:40:55.

Coca-Cola executives, to this little village, sitting hurst in

:40:55.:41:05.
:41:05.:41:06.

Kent. There was a man, Mr Dycehurst, who lived in a flat, he like today

:41:06.:41:11.

dress as a woman, he came down with his dress and wig on, people never

:41:11.:41:15.

picked on him, they used to say hello. It was amazing, maybe

:41:15.:41:21.

because it is an island, there seemed to be more of an acceptance

:41:21.:41:26.

of eccentricity. You have been called an eccentric? Have I?

:41:27.:41:30.

have! It is almost mandatory in a way, for anyone who tries to be

:41:30.:41:34.

creative. Do you think one of the problems in this country, touched

:41:34.:41:41.

on in the play, is we are squeezing out the allowing of people to be

:41:41.:41:44.

eccentric, this marginal life where people are allowed to be slightly

:41:44.:41:47.

weird? I don't think you can make so much money off of people if

:41:47.:41:52.

everybody is independent. If everyone wants Coca-Cola from a

:41:53.:41:56.

different-sized bottle the Coca- Cola doesn't make so much money, as

:41:56.:42:00.

if everyone accepts it all comes in the same bottle. But you know, you

:42:00.:42:05.

look around and no-one is the same. So there is basic problem in my

:42:05.:42:10.

mind, in the organisations that have formed to make money out of

:42:10.:42:16.

selling things. And who we really are, which is independent. Isn't

:42:16.:42:22.

one of the strong things about English people, is they are

:42:22.:42:27.

resistant to change, they don't like being told by the bureaucrats

:42:27.:42:32.

how to do things, they hate it, it strikes a chord about Englishness?

:42:32.:42:35.

I suppose so, when you go to America, there is an excitement

:42:35.:42:38.

about new things in America. There is a little bit more of a cautious

:42:38.:42:45.

here in England. But I feel if you do, in America everyone is your

:42:45.:42:51.

best friend right away, you don't feel you get very deeply into their

:42:51.:42:55.

friendship. Here people hold you off but when they let you in it is

:42:55.:43:00.

more deeply. Why did it work in America, Enron, a great play,

:43:00.:43:05.

Americans didn't like it. With this, they did, this is very English?

:43:05.:43:08.

think it is basically about people who want to stay and have to go,

:43:08.:43:14.

and people who want to go and have to stay. You know, you don't have

:43:14.:43:20.

to believe in the Myan prophesis to realise the way we are living is

:43:20.:43:24.

not really sustainable. Everyone has a consciousness underneath that

:43:24.:43:28.

there are big changes coming. It is hard to change it in ourselves, it

:43:28.:43:32.

is hard for the governors to change T but one is aware it can't really

:43:32.:43:37.

go on like this. We all have a bit of rooster and are living in a wood

:43:38.:43:42.

in way and it doesn't feel like it is going to last very long. I think

:43:42.:43:50.

the play talks so that conscious or unconscious feeling that big change

:43:50.:43:55.

is coming. Just a simple point about you, actually. Is it not

:43:55.:43:58.

exhausting? It is a very fiscal play and you have no understudy, so

:43:58.:44:03.

it is either you or a big hole on the stage I presume! That must be

:44:03.:44:07.

really quite tiring, and quite daunting? People always say that to

:44:07.:44:11.

me. But he's a very defiant character, and maybe that's a nice

:44:11.:44:15.

thing about English people, that they are not to be bossed about

:44:15.:44:20.

easily. Maybe they have been bossed about too much for the few

:44:20.:44:24.

thousands of years. He's so defiant, if I do think for a moment in the

:44:24.:44:30.

performance that I'm feeling tired, Rooster says he has things to say

:44:30.:44:34.

and do. I come out really with a lot of energy. You come out with

:44:34.:44:42.

energy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to do it again. There is such a lot of

:44:42.:44:46.

laughter from the audience, I realise I just don't care so much

:44:46.:44:51.

for film and television because the live thing is so vital. You get it

:44:51.:44:57.

there and then, I'm not talking about Newsnight, I like that?

:44:57.:45:00.

Making them, you know. You have been called, you have been called

:45:00.:45:03.

the greatest actor of your generation, and Jez Butterworth,

:45:04.:45:09.

who wrote the play, says he couldn't imagine it without you,

:45:09.:45:13.

you might as well burn the script. Those are burdens? What does it

:45:13.:45:18.

mean, I'm the greatest liar. I try, I try not to pay attention to that.

:45:18.:45:23.

It could be a burden. But greatest just means different, really, I

:45:23.:45:27.

don't know. Are you glad to be back on the London stage? It is lovely.

:45:27.:45:31.

We can say some of the naughty words we can't say in puritan

:45:31.:45:35.

America. I did hear about that, on that happy note we will leave it

:45:35.:45:45.
:45:45.:45:45.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds

:45:45.:46:28.

there. That's all from Newsnight tonight.

:46:28.:46:38.
:46:38.:47:02.

Emily is here tomorrow. From all of Is the heat going to hold on into

:47:02.:47:06.

the weekend I hear you ask. For many of us the answer is yes,

:47:06.:47:09.

though not for all. The weather front in the North West will bring

:47:09.:47:13.

changes to some parts of the UK, it will start to rain across Northern

:47:13.:47:15.

Ireland and western Scotland during the course of the day. But further

:47:15.:47:19.

south and east it is, as you were, more of the same, another hot and

:47:19.:47:22.

sunny day across the heart of England. With temperatures shth

:47:22.:47:28.

shooting up into the mid-to high 20s.

:47:28.:47:31.

Down across the south west of England, a little bit more cloud,

:47:31.:47:35.

fringing into parts of Cornwall, western parts of Wales too. That

:47:35.:47:38.

weather front approaches. Most of the West Country, most of Wales

:47:38.:47:41.

will have a fine and warm day. A different story across the Irish

:47:41.:47:46.

Sea, because it will turn wet for a time across Northern Ireland. Heavy

:47:46.:47:50.

bursts of rain pushing into parts of western Scotland as well.

:47:50.:47:53.

Further east across Scotland, as you can see, it will be another

:47:53.:47:58.

fine and pretty warm day. So, that's the set up on Friday, what

:47:58.:48:01.

about Saturday? Cooler conditions spreading into other parts of

:48:01.:48:06.

northern UK, patchy rain for a time. Further south, the heat holds on.

:48:06.:48:11.

Into early October, and yes, we could break the all-time October

:48:11.:48:15.

record. It will be touch and go for sure. A north-south divide on

:48:15.:48:18.

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