Browse content similar to 14/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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After the worst week of his political life, Liam Fox decided he | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
had to go as he admits blurring personal interests and government | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
activities. We have new revelations about his friend Adam Werritty's | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
business links. The Shadow Defence Secretary Jim Murphy with the Tory | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
MP who says Dr Fox should not have quit. General Sir Mike Jackson will | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
discuss the effect of having six defence secretaries in six years. | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
At a time of big military cuts and two major conflict, we'll examine | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
Liam Fox's legacy at the MoD. Also tonight, how will the Tory right | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
react to losing one of their favourite sons and we'll discuss | :00:45. | :00:54. | |
where this leaves the Coalition and David Cameron. | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Good evening. There's an old saying among military medics about being | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
wounded in combat, if it looks bad, it is bad. The day by day | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
revelations about Liam Fox and his friendship with Adam Werritty | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
looked increasingly bad throughout the past week and that meant they | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
were bad. Today Dr Fox decided he'd had enough and quit his job to be | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
taken now by Philip Hammond, the Transport Secretary. We'll get to | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
the long-term political and military implications in a moment, | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
but first, David Grossman is here with Higgs insights into what | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
happened today and why. It looked increasingly inevitable, | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
didn't it? I think that's a fair assessment. This has been one of | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
the more inevitable resignations from the Cabinet in modern times, | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
ever since the bare facts of this were known. I think all that was | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
really delaying the departure was David Cameron's understandable | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
reluctance to lose a Defence Secretary at a time of war and take | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
the inevitable political hit that comes from losing any Cabinet | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
minister. But what happened day after day has been that Liam Fox's | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
story, or his account of what was going on has simply unravelled. At | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
the beginning we were told these 41 meetings with Adam Werritty who | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
had's been his bestman were simply friends getting together to chew | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
over stuff. Now, over the days, a more complex picture has emerged. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
Today one of the donors who provided money for Adam Werritty | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
says that it was Liam Fox who solicited those donations. The | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
Cabinet secretary is looking at this matter and is about to report. | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
I understand that one of the factors that tipped Liam Fox | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
towards resignation is the knowledge that that assessment by | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
the Cabinet secretary was going to be very critical. At the moment, | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
when he resigned it was his decision but he knew it wasn't | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
going to be his decision for much longer. | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
There aren't many more important jobs in government, political | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
oversight of the Armed Forces, defending the realm. What Liam Fox | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
couldn't survive, though, was the impression that he was also at the | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
same time running a parallel department. | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
REPORTER: Is sorry enough? It's not like he didn't do his best to hang | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
on, he even apologised. I accept that mistakes were made and I | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
should not have allowed the impression of wrong-doing to arise. | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
I'm very sorry for that. When that didn't work, well, he | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
apologised again. I am sorry for this, I have apologised to the | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
Prime Minister, to the public and at the first opportunity available | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
to the House. Today there was no sign of the Defence Secretary, just | :03:31. | :03:41. | |
:03:41. | :04:06. | ||
a whole load of rumours and then, I think if you look back at the | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
events of the week, I think he's reached the right decision. I'm | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
reluctant in that conclusion because I think he'll be a big loss | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
to the MoD but when the story becomes as persistent as it has | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
become, it does become a real distraction for the department | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
concerned. I agree with his analysis that it was probably | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
better for him to step aside and avoid disrupting the very important | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
work of the Ministry of Defence and our Armed Forces. Outside the MoD | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
statues of heroes, Monty, of course, who did for the Desert Fox. | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
What did for the Liam Fox? Forget all those complicated floep charts | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
showing money going from that individual to that organisation, or | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
that meeting and that obscure foreign location. What really did | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
for him was the perception that even as Secretary of State for | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Defence, even in charge of the MoD here, he was, at the same time, | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
running a sort of freelance policy operation beyond the control of the | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
Government. The facts emerged slowly. The | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
bestman at Dr Fox's wedding, Adam Werritty, we found out visited him | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
at his office 22 times and on overseas visits 19 times, all since | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
the last general election. Why? And who was paying? It appears | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
it was political donors seeking to influence policy. Ministers have | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
always had as it were groups of people who work for them on the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
side, people they mix with in Parliament, groups that they kept | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
in touch with. That's perfectly acceptable if these things are open | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
and they're understood. It's the gaining private advantage through | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
public office of the minister that is wrong. It is deeply suspicious. | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
Even if nothing wrong was happening, ie, no money was being made, no | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
secrets were being given away, the rules are pretty clear. Just the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
perception of wrong-doing is wrong because it's against the public | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
interest. Mr Werritty had been using a business card describing | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
himself as an advisor, but crucially, he didn't have any | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
official status. He did, though, arrange meetings, a meeting with | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
the defence contractor at this Dubai hotel, Liam Fox was there but | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
there was no civil servant present much | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
There was also a meeting with the Sri Lankan President, again Adam | :06:14. | :06:21. | |
Werritty was there, but no civil servant. The Cabinet secretary Gus | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
O'Donnell is conducting an investigation. Labour says that | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
investigation must now be widened. It will not be good enough just to | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
say he's resign and it's not going any further. It's quite | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
embarrassing for David Cameron because some of the same | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
individuals who funded Adam Werritty's activities are quite | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
major donors to David Cameron's campaigns as well in the | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
Conservative Party. But Liam Fox is not without friends in his own | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
party. They point to his successes, recently in Britain's involvement | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
in Libya. It was this support that was one of | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
the factors in meaning that David Cameron did not wish to be seen to | :06:59. | :07:07. | |
be forcing him out prematurely. Very upset for him, a man of great | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
honour and integrity. But also very angry at the media witch-hunt that | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
has pursued him and ultimately played a very important part in | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
forcing him out of office. I met with Liam a few nights ago for a | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
drink. I could see the hurt, I think, that he was feeling. He has | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
obviously put his party and his government ahead of his own | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
interests. We have lost an incredibly efficient, hard-working | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
Secretary of State for Defence. David Cameron, too, paid tribute to | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
his departing minister. I quite understood why Liam Fox has decided | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
to resign. Obviously I'm sorry to see him go because obviously he did | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
a good job at the Ministry of Defence, clearing up the mess left | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
by the last government and giving good leadership to that department, | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
particularly while we've been in action in Libya and also, of course, | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
in Afghanistan as well. New Defence Secretary is Philip Hammond. He | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
moves from transport. That personnel change, the Government | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
would like to mark the end of this matter. There are, though, too many | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
unanswered questions still hanging around about Liam Fox and his | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
bestman for that to be the case. With me now our correspondent | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
Richard Watson who spent the week investigating the many questions | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
raised by the friendship of Dr Fox and Adam Werritty. Richard, you | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
learnt some new information today, did you not? Yeah, I think the most | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
damaging material to come out really concerns this, not for | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
profit company funded by donors who supported Liam Fox's political | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
ideology on the right. That seems to be the vehicle by which Adam | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
Werritty was funding his five-star lifestyle around the world. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
Crucially one of these big donors came out tonight and confirmed that | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Liam Fox approached him, claimed he approached him after the election | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
for funding and I think that raises some very big questions indeed. The | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
way this story emerged today is also instructive. At 2pm I received | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
a phone call from a source saying that Pargav's sole director had | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
been suspended from his job with a a major hedge fund company run by a | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
man called Michael Hindusy and he has been a big donor to the | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
Conservative Party as well. That point the writer was on the wall, | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
if you have a big donor to the Conservative Party pulling out the | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
draw bridge, creating clear water between him and this story, the | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
inevitable would follow and two hours later he resigned. | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
uncovered some new information about what might have been going on | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
on that trip to Sri Lanka which was after that very brutal civil war in | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
the country? The Sri Lankan story, I think is quite Jermaine to this, | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
central to this, what I've been told by a very well pleased source | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
is that within the last three to four months there were serious | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
concerns expressed by some Foreign Office officials here in London | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
that Adam Werritty was pursuing a kind of argument that went along | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
the following lines - now the civil war is over it's time to rebuild | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
relationship with Sri Lanka, fair enough, but those contracts he | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
suggested would flow would include some kind of defence-related | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
material, highly controversial. The same source told me at that a | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
second set of officials, this time in the Department for International | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
Development had similar concerns recently as well. They were saying | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
that Mr Werritty was pursuing a similar argument saying Britain | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
should be in the business of big construction contracts to Sri Lanka | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
and what about including defence- related contracts as a kind of | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
added incentive to make Britain very competitive indeed. Where does | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
it leave us? I suppose ultimately in summary it has been a week of | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
drip, drip in evidence and allegations. It proved too much in | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
the end but of course there could still be quite a lot to come out. | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
We have the official inquiry next week. Thank you very much. | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
We wanted to speak to Dr Fox tonight or any member of the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
Government, we were told that no- one was available. But with us now, | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
the Conservative MP and friend of Dr Fox, Peter Bone and the Shadow | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
Defence Secretary Jim Murphy. Mr Bone, given all that, and given | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
that he was a daily distrabg in the past week, he had -- distraction in | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
the past week, he had to absolutely go? I don't think so. I think it | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
would be in the national interest for Dr Fox to remain. There were | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
allegations and tittle-tattle but there was no suggestion he breached | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
national security, no suggestion that there was any corruption on | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
the part of Dr Fox. Now, he put, of course, the country first rather | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
than his personal career and resign because, because the media was in | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
such a frenzy. Hold on, though, the media will do what the media will | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
do, but this was somebody who was told by Number 10 that could you | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
hang on, of course, and wait for Gus O'Donnell's report next week. | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
The Labour Party, I'm sure Jim Murphy will confirm it, Jim Murphy | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
wasn't saying you could resign, he could have held on. He must have | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
realised he did something wrong. Only the BBC could say that. | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
said it today. Why not accept the obvious. That he resigned because | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
he did something wrong? Absolutely not. He resigned because he did | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
something right? Yes, he put the country first. Because of the | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
frenzy that you and others have built up, he was distracting from | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
the job and he decided to go. I think that was typical of Liam. | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
Murphy, the case is closed, the man has gone, it's over. The case | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
hasn't closed. We actually don't know why Liam resigned today. We | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
can speculate. He put the country first. We know that's not the case. | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
Peter has to say it and that's fine. I happen to believe that. Sorry, | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
Peter, that's unkind for me to say you were doing your job then. | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
Believe you to be wrong, but. I never called for his resignation. I | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
had say. Why not? I think too often opposition politicians whether when | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
Labour was in power and the Tories did it or when Tories are in power | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
Labour perhaps in the past have done it, in a sense, if you throw | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
about demands for resignations like confetti, it's devalued as a | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
currency. I think Liam, like every politician, is entitled to a fair | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
hearing, there was an inquiry, it should have run its course but | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
unfortunately for Liam, as the evidence has emerged Liam has | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
decided he can't go on. He'd become a distraction, I'm suggesting to | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
you this is now over. What more do you want to know? Two things, Liam | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
did break the rules, Government has rules and ministers have standards. | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
He's paid a high price. Liam fell below his own standards and broke | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
the Government's rules in terms of the code of conduct of the the | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
second thing here is we need to find out whags this source of | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
money? What is the flow of money -- what is this sorgs of money? Liam | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
treated Adam Werritty as a good friend, Adam Werritty seemed to | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
treat Liam Fox as some sort of franchise to make money from. We | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
need to know as part of the inquiry, where's the money? Why has Liam | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
decided. Let's carry out the investigation and if need be | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
broaden the investigation further. Do you agree with that? I think we | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
have to see what the report says. I agree with Jim that he looked | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
embarrassed in the House of Commons earlier this week when behind him | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
Labour backbenchers were baying for Liam Fox's blood. He's a good guy, | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Jim, he was reluctantly pushing the party line but you could see his | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
heart wasn't in. What did you make of the innuendos and some would say | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
smears this week? That's what it was all about. It was like reading | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
a soap op radio, wasn't it. It was -- opera, wasn't it. Soap operas | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
decide whether you get rid of a minister or not. In this case I | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
think there is a national interest involved. I would like Jim to tell | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
me, does he think it's in the national interest, think of our men | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
abroad, fighting in Libya and Afghanistan, that Liam Fox has left. | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
I've always said I would rather be discussing and debateing the | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
Government's defence policy rather than the Government's Defence | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Minister. Neither Peter nor I created this crisis and neither did | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
the BBC, Liam Fox created this crisis by having such a close | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
professional relationship in such a murky business where it emerges | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
this evening that Liam appears to have the solicited donations for an | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
organisation that Mr Werritty worked for, that was then providing | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
with advice and support. This is entirely of Liam's making, but he's | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
done the right thing. Peter shouldn't blame the press. The res | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
are doing their job. A narrow point, are you worried about the changing | :15:09. | :15:17. | |
composition of the Government, that the raoeult, as it were, somewhat | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
under represented.? Another context of this, I'm from the right of the | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
party. I didn't think we were very well represented in the Cabinet. | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
Now I think we're grossly underrepresented. I think what's | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
going to happen in the next few weeks or months, the inevitable re- | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
shuffle has to occur and the balance in the Cabinet has to to be | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
put right. We need to have people in the Cabinet who represent the | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
Conservative Party. We have five Liberals representing the Liberal | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
Democrats. I think the most concerned person this evening isn't | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
people, it will be Chris Huhne, because the inLib Dems sat their | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
silently and defended the Defence Secretary because they knew if they | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
took out the Defence Secretary Peter and others would respond by | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
retaliateing against Chris Huhne. It was more like a protection | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
racket than a Coalition Government. You said you would like a debate | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
about the future of defence in this country. The big debate, but six | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
defence secretaries in six years four of them Labour, one after the | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
other, they didn't last very long. You are, it is allege by Mr Fox and | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
others, Dr Fox and others, partly responsible for the chaos at the | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
MoD. That's a wider debate and we can discuss that this evening if | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
you wish. But the fact is, the Government had a defence review | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
that Liam oversaw, that he thought was the right thing to do for the | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
country. But I think it was a short-term measure driven by the | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
deficit reduction plan going too deeply. We have an island nation | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
with a -- with an aircraft-carrier that will have a holiday from | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
aircraft. Those sorts of decisions are peculiar, I hope the new man in | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
the job takes a fresh look at some of these decisions so they make | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
sense. Thank you both. There are never easy times nowadays | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
for the British military but Dr Fox's resignation comes during a | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
war in Afghanistan, of course, conflict in Libya and a profound | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
reorganisation as we've just been hearing and budget cuts at the MoD. | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
The forces are still coming to taoerpls with the Strategic Defence | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
and Security Review which Dr Fox oversaw. He fought battles against | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the Treasury and Downing Street on the cuts and awkwardly for the | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
Coalition his concerns became public. In the end he had to accept | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
sweeping job cuts in all three services, the axing of Harrier | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
jumpjets, the Navy's flagship HMS Ark Royal and planned Nimrod spy | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
planes. On the battlefield or above it, Libya has revealed gaps in what | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
British forces can actually do nowadays. After ten years in | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
Afghanistan no-one thinks that the war there is anywhere near being | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
won, whatever that might mean. His successor, Philip Hammond, the | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
sixth Defence Secretary in six years somehow has to maintain | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
motheral, support troops who are risking their lives and keep going | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
with cuts and reforms. With me is our defence editor, Mark | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
Urban, will he be thought of, leaving what we've been talking | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
about aside, will he be thought of as a good Defence Secretary? There | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
are many people in Whitehall who say precisely that, he came into | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
the MoD at an extremely difficult time, a very overspent organisation, | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
an organisation where the political contradictions within the Labour | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
Party about Iraq, Afghanistan, had led to such a light political touch | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
on the tiller that it was pretty much rudderless, many people | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
thought the service chiefs were having things far too much their | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
own way, loading in projects into the programme you unsustainable. It | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
needed a big character to turn it all around, to get the Strategic | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
Defence and Security Review in, and many people feel that Liam Fox was | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
precisely that man and that he had the force and personality to do so | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
and therefore this is a considerable loss. We've heard | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
Peter Bone and many of his other friends coming out today talking | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
about him but he made some enemies, too. Precisely for those same | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
reasons the force of character, the fact that he knew his own mind on | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
many of these key issues. He came in there, for example, saying "we | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
will get rid of one major combat aircraft type in the RAF", a thing | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
that cascaded down into this decision to get rid of the Harriers | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
eventually. He knew his mind on that issue. He did upset people. It | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
was precisely part of his strategy to get the military back on the | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
leash that upset many people. Then a few months ago, for example, when | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
he announced that the powers of the service chiefs were being trimmed. | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
He said in the House of Commons they don't need to be so involved | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
in strategy, almost implying it was a waste of their time, they | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
shouldn't be worried about this. One service chief described that | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
remark to me as "disgusting". He certainly had many enemies, | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
particularly within the senior ranks of the military. People who | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
would not be, sorry to see him ago and, of course, the MoD is in the | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
process of making those, some of those war fighters from Libya and | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
Afghanistan redundant, which is also creating bitterness. Briefly, | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
Philip Hammond takes over, widely regarded as a safe pair of hands, a | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
safe bet. What are the biggest challenges he faces given that | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
those difficult decisions have been taken? The key operational | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
challenge is obviously managing the exit from Afghanistan, but the | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
broader key challenge is the programme once again, already so | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
soon after that defence review there are many people who say, no, | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
the same old problems are going on, the thing is overset with too many | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
projects, too many overspends. There will have to be further | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
substantial cuts in the forces and Mr Hammond will need to get his | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
head round that issue. Thank you very much. Also with us, the former | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
head of the army Sir Mike Jackson. Leaving aside the details of what | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
went on, when you have the head of the MoD distracted by something as | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
he has been every day this week, how difficult is it for the | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
organisation to know exactly where it's heading? It's obviously a | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
distraction. The good thing perhaps is that it didn't last very long, | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
although it may seem long. It's good that it's over? It's good that | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
it's over. One way or the other. But we now know. | :20:49. | :20:56. | |
But echoing what's just been said, it's a very complex canvas at the | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
moment. We have a war still to be won in Afghanistan, albeit with an | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
end date, we shall see. We have an operation to conclude in Libya, to | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
say nothing of the unexpected, we can leave that. There's a very | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
complex programme of restructuring, reforming the MoD itself, this is | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
quite a challenge. I hope, I hope you're wrong when you say that | :21:22. | :21:30. | |
we're still that much out of kilter as between programme and budget. | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
Philip Hammond is a quick studyer, he spent a lot of time thinking | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
about the Treasury matters, he went to transport and now he's at the | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
MoD. How difficult is it for somebody, an outsider to get their | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
head round the complexities of everything from procurement to | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
looking after men and women's lives. I think it takes really quite a | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
long time. There's a sense that up to a year is required before you | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
really understand how the machine works, what motivates people. The | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
whole acquisition process which has been the Achilles heel, if you like, | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
of defence for so long, which, to give Dr Fox credit, he was getting | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
a grip on, amongst other things. But we are where we are. What I | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
think the Armed Forces look for is now continuity. They would hope the | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
big decisions have been taken and it's now a question of making sure | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
they get implemented. It was trgt the way you said that, that it | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
could -- interesting that you said that, that it could take up to a | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
year, even for a bright person to take charge of this. If we had six | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
people in six years, that suspects no-one has quite got a grip on it | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
for many years? I think it's a very poor reflection somehow on, I don't | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
know, maybe the political importance given to defence. This | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
is not a party political point because most of that churn was in | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
the last government. That's where we have been, about one a year on | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
average. The Armed Forces themselves could be forgiven for | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
thinking that they don't matter that much. I'm sure that's not the | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
case but it can give that impression, this churn. How, then, | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
important is it for Philip Hammond not only to raise himself to the | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
challenges we've been talking about but stays for quite sometime? | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
Leaving personality, names apart, whoever it was, I very much hope we | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
now have a Defence Secretary who will be in post until the next | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
election. To give that continuity. Do you think that Liam Fox should | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
have gone because he was a distraction? He chose to go. I | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
don't think it's for me to comment as a retired soldier on the | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
politics of it. I don't know what was in his mind or whatever. He's | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
chosen to go and that's that, we are where we are. Does any of this | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
have an impact on the soldiers on ground which is obviously your | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
particular concern? Yes, I think to a private soldier in Afghanistan | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
the name and the personality of the Secretary of State may just be part, | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
just on his radar screen but I don't think it's going to be much | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
of his thinking day. What he looks for is good direction from the top | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
downwards and a constandcy of direction. I go back to my | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
continuity point. Thank you very much, General Sir Mike Jackson. | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
It's one of the cliches of politics that all political parties are | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
coalitions but it's true that Liam Fox who once harboured ambitions to | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
be Tory leader was once seen to be the emblematic figure of the right. | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
Today we've been hearing the right has never been weaker in the Tory | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
Cabinet than it is now. Shaun Ley looks back at Liam Fox's career and | :24:46. | :24:55. | |
what he represented. Liam Fox is that increasingly rare | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
beast at the top of the Conservative Party, no Cameron- | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
style social liberal, he signalled that he's an unreconstructed | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Thatcherite by making the lady herself star-turn at his 50th | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
birthday party. From the start of his Parliamentary career in 1992, | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
he was prepared to defy the leadership, challenging John | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
Major's delicate party balancing act over Europe by publicly | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
pledging his opposition to scrapping the pound. In any cunning | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
fight over the EU he could yet become a rallying point for | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
hardline sceptics. The EU is locked in the past. We need an agenda for | :25:32. | :25:39. | |
the 21st century. We need to break away from the whole outdated | :25:40. | :25:49. | |
:25:50. | :25:50. | ||
concept of ever closer union much He was ambitious, in opposition he | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
flourished, his convivial style making him an ideal party chairman | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
to rally demoralised party troops. For Liam Fox this could never be | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
the nasty party and its past was nothing to be ashamed of. There is | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
no such thing as government money, there is only tax-payers' money, | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
remember that one. You cannot go on squeezing wealth | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
creators to finance an ever hungrier government machine. David | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
Cameron put him in charge of health, but Dr Fox enthused about an | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
insurance-based NHS, hardly helpful to the new leader's attempts to | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
decontaminate the Tory brand. Defence fitted his traditional Tory | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
instincts but in taking on the military top brass he impressed | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
Number 10 with his appetite for reform. Less welcome was an | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
interview calling Afghanistan a broken 13th century country and | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
leaks showing him valiantly fighting the Treasury over defence | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
cuts. Who leaked and why was never established. | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
Liked but never entirely trusted, a reputation Liam Fox takes with him | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
to the backbenches, one way may yet give David Cameron cause to be | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
nervous. Shaun Ley with that report. Joining | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
me to discuss the Fox resignation and what means, Fraser Nelson the | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
editor of the Spectator and Allegra Stratton, political correspondent | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
with the Guardian. Fraser, you know Liam Fox, you've heard the various | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
arguments put about today, do you think this was a good man hounded | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
out by the press or do you think it was someone who made fundamental | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
misjudgments? I think it was a good man who made fundamental | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
misjudgments. Throughout all of this nobody is saying he was a bad | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
Defence Secretary, politicians never resign because they did the | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
job wrong it's always something else. I think he was right to think | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
this couldn't go on. You just feel in your bones as a politician that | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
this story is not going to go away. I suspect with him he probably | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
could have hung on, David Cameron probably would have backed him but | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
he decided that the critical mass of bad news stories was such that | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
it was time to walk the plank. Allegra, he was pretty naive, | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
wasn't he? Indeed, he was. Also, we've been playing this game in the | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
office of trying to imagine that he was the relationship with Werritty | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
if she had been a woman and would we have necessarily hung back from | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
that and not interrogated that relationship and not said, hold on | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
a second this is completely normal. There was naivety, he does have | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
this kind of boyish charm, though. That is a part of his thing, that | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
he's kinda, swbsb from his constituency earlier was talking | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
about him having Blair-like qualities. Is that a compliment or | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
not? From him he said it was a compliment, a kind of sparkle in | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
his eyes? He loves Conservatives. When he was party chairman he would | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
talk to the activists in their 50s and 60s and wee love talking to | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
them and it was reciprocated. That's why the party liked him. | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
They could tell that he was a Conservative to his heart. Was part | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
of it, though, talking with Peter Bone there, there was innuendos | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
about him and smears which nobody quite put their finger on but it | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
contributed to the '80s fear around him? He's always had this | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
atmosphere around him. He is age blind as a politician, friends in | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
their 70s, and 20s, it doesn't matter to him. That's odd for a | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
politician. The same thing about social status. Normally when a | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
politician has a bestman it's a political appointment, somebody | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
who's up there in stature, he doesn't care for any of that. He's | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
saying, look here's my best mate, sure he's 16 years younger, but I | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
don't care. Odd for a politician but normal for a person. We're not | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
dealing with something with subjectivity within it completely | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
what, we've had in the last 24 hours, the critical thing and why | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
we believe Gus O'Donnell was going to be quite critical. I saw people | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
from Downing Street on Thursday night, last night, when those first | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
editions were dropping, The Times and frbg T in particular which were | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
beginning to draw the link between some of this money and influence in | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
defence contracts -- FT -- at that toeupbt, you have the the | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
Ministerial Code of Conduct, the wrong-doing and perception of | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
wrong-doing. It was beginning to look like you have both those | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
things. Where does this leave the party, there are those on the right | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
saying they're being edged out and they're much more important in the | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
country, the Conservative Party in the country than they are in the | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
Cabinet? Certainly the Conservative Party will see in Liam Fox an | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
unashamed Conservative champion. But I don't think anybody can claim | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
that David Cameron was using this to get rid of a nasty right-winger. | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
But even so, they might say, David Davis is in the backbenches, John | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
Redwood is in the backbenches, talented people but none inside | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
Number 10? Yes, I have a feeling they won't. It remains to be seen | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
but it's not as if Philip Hammond is a kind of socialist in a suit. I | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
don't think that the political balance of the Government has | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
changed much. Bear in mind you had a speech from the Chancellor last | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
week at party conference where George Osborne was very clear about, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
for instance, environmentalism, something that the right of the | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
party were at one stage worried that the leadership didn't reflect. | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
Now they are reflecting. We're seeing the dynamic of the Coalition | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
and we will see in the years to come it will increasingly, the | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
Tories will increasingly creep right purely as a sort of kind of | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
uncoupling at the head of the next election. Do you think then, the | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
implication was that, you're saying, Cameron handled it well. What the | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
about the re-shuffle, two women have been promoted with this? | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
That's right. David Cameron is in big trouble with women right now | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
and needs to make up and promote them. I don't think he promoted | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
Justine Greening for tokenistic reasons, she's an incredibly sharp | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
MP. I think the appointment of Philip Hammond in defence is | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
interesting. He isn't a guy who wakes up in the morning and puts on | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
Union Jack cuff links like Liam Fox did. He's a kind of Alastair | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
Darling figure, an accountant, that's his tkhaoepber, like a human | :31:51. | :31:58. | |
fire extinct wisher, sent there to calm this department -- demeanour. | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
Liam Fox did the hard stuff. He took the knocks, now the plan needs | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
to be implemented. Can I just make one observation about this re- | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
shuffle, not about women, which is it's qaoeult a George Osborne re- | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
shuffle, Philip Hammond was close to him. Justine, obviously, she's | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
the fifth member in the Treasury and now she's suddenly gone up to | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
being top of the Department for Transport, quite a meteoric rise, | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
she's good but it's traoebgs Lib Dem quick and now PPS to Osbourne | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
and he's somebody who has talked about Europe having to break up. | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
There are interesting sub stories. Do either of you think the story is | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
over? I very much doubt the Sunday papers won't have anything to say | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
about this. There are still unanswered questions about who was | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
funding Adam Werritty and why. I think when the report comes out on | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
Monday, I think Liam Fox will personally be in the clear. Indeed, | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
it's not over for Fox but it's probably over in terms of the | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
implications at the top of government. Thank you very much. | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
David grossman is here with a look at some of tomorrow's front pages | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
much You won't be surprised to hear they | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
all lead on the resignation of the Defence Secretary. The front page | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
of the Guardian "No more denials, fox quits." Co-written by one | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
Allegra Stratton whose sources have told her Werritty's evidence had | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
not impressed O'Donnell and the Cabinet secretary was concluded | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
that Fox had repeatedly broken the Ministerial Code. Rattling thrao. | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
Secret cash trail that meant Fox had to go. This was the crucial | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
development today, this donor saying Fox was solicting the | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
donations for Werritty. Going on the next paper we have | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
there, the FT "Werritty revelations claim Fox." That's those same | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
revelations and defenceless Liam Fox in the Independent. | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
The Times again "Hunted Fox." Final lit the Mirror, "Another fine | :33:51. | :33:57. | |
mess." Where they link Liam Fox and Oliver Letwin with his bins. | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
Thank you all very much. Now, that's all for Newsnight | :34:00. | :34:07. | |
tonight. Martha is up next with the review looking ahead to next week's | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
Man Booker Prize. Tomorrow Wales play France, the red dragon will be | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
flying above Downing Street and as they're the last home nation in the | :34:13. | :34:18. |