13/10/2011 Newsnight


13/10/2011

Amid reports that hospitals in England are falling short in basic care for elderly patients, Newsnight examines current attitudes towards older people. Presented by Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Good evening. It's not much to look forward to, because we can all

:00:07.:00:11.

expect to get old and when that happens, there is apparently no

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guarantee we will be treated well. Four and nine, 49. This, it seems,

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can be as good as it gets. In half the hospitals of England, might not

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even be fed properly does this reflect a broader culture of

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contempt for older people in Britain.

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How do you think older people are treated these days? They are

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forgotten, once you reach retirement and you retire, that's

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it, you are more or less forgotten. Is the best to hope for to be

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laughed at? Oh, I do not believe it. Look at this.

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The Labour MP who went to jail for fiddling his expenses believes he

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was scapegoated. In his first television interview, I will be

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asking if he really expects public sympathy.

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Are you any less likely to put this sort of stuff in your mouth if

:01:10.:01:14.

someone in authority tells you that you need to think about your health.

:01:14.:01:24.
:01:24.:01:28.

The Defence Secretary says it is back to business as normal, is it?

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The figures, the scenes described the testimony of families all add

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up to a hugely - hospitals breaking the law in their so-called their.

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There is much talk of improved training and better monitoring. Is

:01:50.:01:54.

the real problem a question of our changed attitudes to old age. It

:01:54.:02:00.

will come to all of us, as the Israeli Prime Minister, Golda Meir,

:02:00.:02:03.

once commented, it is like a plane going through a storm, once you are

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aboard, there is nothing much you can do.

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Four and nine, 49. If life really is a lottery, then what kind of a

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result is it for you when 65 and 70, and even higher numbers start

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coming around. On the one hand we are living longer. On the other, it

:02:23.:02:25.

is no thanks to the way some hospitals have been treating the

:02:25.:02:30.

elderly. Today's Care Quality Commission

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survey found that 40% of the hospitals in England didn't offer

:02:34.:02:40.

what they called dignified care. One incontinent patient was left

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unwashed for 90 minutes, despite calling for help. Doctors were

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having to prescribe drinking water to make sure patients got a drink.

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And food was being delivered while patients were asleep, taken away

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before they woke up. People expect, quite rightly, that when they go

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into hospital, they are treated with dignity, and the very basic

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things of food and water are available to them, in an

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appropriate way. It is fundamental to getting well again. One of the

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hospitals that came out worst from the survey was this one in Sandwell,

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in the West Midlands. Managers have now closed the worst ward. They

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claim close to blaming the problem on the wrong kind of patients.

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are quite clear that in the end, that we found that the combination

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of patients that the nurses, particularly on the ward, were

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being required to deal with, wasn't working. That was why, in the end,

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we decided to split the ward. I'm not making excuses for the failings

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the CQC have found, you have to look at it more deeply, that is why

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we have taken the radical action we have. Most of us probably look

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forward to pottering about in retirement, doing a few odd jobs,

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but on the basis of what we have been hearing today about the lot of

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the elderly in our society, there is clearly something nasty in the

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wood shed. Half of the population aged over 75

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now live on their own, and half of those aged over 65 think of the

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television as their main companion. One in ten in that age group says

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they feel lonely. Are we just packing the elderly off out of

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sight? Sometimes that is just what they want. Hello chaps.

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The men in sheds are a bunch of retired chaps in South-East London

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who like nothing better than getting out of the house and into

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this workshop, set up by the charity Age UK. It is the banter,

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the innuendo, the little jokes, tongue-in-cheek, that is what you

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miss from when you pack up work. You miss your colleagues, the

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banter, what happened yesterday and the football match, the wife's not

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interested in that. How are older people treated these days? You are

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forgotten, once you reach retirement and you retire, that is

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it, you are more or less forgotten. The women have the Women's

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Institute, there is not a lot for men, then you go down the working

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mens' club, but you finish up as an alcoholic. John Jones, who is 72,

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says he's the first here and the last to leave. He lives on his own

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since his partner died last Christmas. This is a life saver for

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me, without it I don't know what I would have done. A life saver. Do

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you miss work? Yes, I would go to work tomorrow. A proper full-time

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job? Roofing I used to. Do I would go roofing tomorrow, but they won't

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let me. Could you still roof, if that is the verb? Yeah. The trouble

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s when you are past 65 you can't get the insurance. Too often we

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ignore what older people can contribute to society, even if they

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are not active or at work. That is not recognised. You think about the

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millions of people who are providing care to a loved one or

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relative, not getting paid, doing it out of love and compassion and

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kindness. If we think about the hundreds of thousands of older

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people who are volunteering day in and day out, and keeping a lot of

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our services and community groups going. What happened to respecting

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our elders? Yes, Bruce Forsyth is still on television with Strictly.

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Nice to see, to see you. Nice. Other famous senior, like the

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former Liberal Democrat leader don't get off lightly. I'm Menzies

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Campbell, the only politician with "do not resus say the" on the soles

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of his slippers. We wish these south London pensioners a hearty

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retirement, but more and more of us have a long time to go before our

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numbers are up. How we are going to spend it, and how we will be

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treated, has become an unswervable dilemma. With us now are the

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Conservative minister, David Willetts MP, who recently wrote a

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book about the babyboomer generation, and also Baroness

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Warner, a moral philosopher, who falls comfortably into the category

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of an older citizen, and Emma Soames, editor of Saga Magazine,

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and right on the cusp. What do you think has happened to the way we

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treat our older people? All sorts of things. It is partly to do with

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the falling apart of the traditional family. Some families

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work their grandparents to death, practically, looking after their

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grandchildren. And involve them enormously. But I fear for the

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grandparents of those families, for instance, in that recent report,

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where they said that parents are chucking toys at their children

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because they don't want to spend time with them. If they can't spend

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time with their children, God help their parents. Do you get a sense

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in some cases families are effectively dumping old people on

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the state? I think that actually within the family there is quite a

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lot of exchange that goes on between the generations. In a way

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what's happened to the society, is the family is the remaining place

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where the different generations mix up. In general, our society is

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increasingly divided by age. We tend to work with people of the

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same age group, the housing tends to be with people of the same age

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group, the family is the only space where the intergenerational

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exchanges survive. How did we get to this point, there used to be a

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time when wisdom was prized and age of venerated, and now it is

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completely the reverse, youth is venerated? I think wisdom was

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prized, it was a bit of a myth really that. I know in ancient

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Greece wisdom was supposed to be prized, I don't know it was prized

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all that much later than that. But, there was a different social

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surrounding in the family. So that the aged could usually, often be

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taken in and taken on as part of the family. And had a role to play.

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I think the lonely people that we hear about, are people who don't

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have anything to do, and nothing to think about, and have no role.

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grandfather, Winston Churchill, became Prime Minister for the first

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time at the age of 65, it is inconceivable nowadays? Well, yes,

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sadly, it is a reflection on the ageism of our society, rather more

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than the ability of an enormous number of 65-year-olds. The other

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that is happening, is old people are increasingly fiercely

:10:02.:10:09.

independent. And then they get slightly hoist on their own pretard

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when they centre their fourth age rather than their third age. They

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don't want to be a burden and want to look after themselves. Suddenly

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they find themselves in hospital, on their own, and needing support.

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There are going to be more and more old people around, we're all going

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to get old and hang around, and you will be around another 20 year, but

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a lot of old people around. How does society begin to adjust to

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this big change, David Willetts? Sorry, one thing I think is that at

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a superficial level, and agreeable level, people are extremely kind

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and nice to the old. I now recognise myself as old, at last,

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but going around London, for instance, I find people enormously

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helpful, and always offering to carry a suitcase or do I want help

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up the stairs, and what not. I'm absolutely amazed by how agreeable

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young people are. And also, how they like to talk. So going around

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London, where I now live for the first time, find myself surrounded

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by people I don't know, who are extremely nice to me. And I love

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them and get on with them. But I think there is a huge difference

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between that and caring for them in the serious sense, then they are

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really helpless. There is a huge gulf between respecting and liking

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the old and caring for them. think we should remember a lot of

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older people want to contribute, that was one of the main things

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that came across in the quick report earlier. We know that old

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people care about the future, they care about their kids and grand

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kids. Sometimes we get in the way. There is a charity that tries to

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link up older people with spare ruem rooms and younger people

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looking for housing. What is one of the biggest problems they face,

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they say the older people are vulnerable adults and they should

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only have a younger tenant after they have a Social Services check.

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It is these things that get in the way of these connections, when

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older people want to give something and receive something in exchange.

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Have you any further practical suggestions? What we should do is

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try to find places where different people miss. In education, the FE

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college, where you have an older person and a younger person in

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class together, that works better. We should look at wherever there is

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an assumption where you have to keep different age groups apart

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because one is a threat to the other, we should challenge that.

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need a fundamental shift don't we? We need intelligent social design.

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There are pockets of it. We need incredibly good local networks. I

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should know, I live on a treat with about 50 houses in it, it is not

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huge, I should know every single person over 80 in that treat. I

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should be informed so if - in that street, I should be informed so I

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could hold out a friendly hand and have them to tea. They are amongst

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us but hidden. I'm sorry to be brutal about this, the reason

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people don't do that, is because they don't find old people, either

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easy, or congeejal. That's the base - congenial, that is the basis of

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it. People are very busy, both parents tend to work, they are

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extremely occupied. Old people, you know, in the eyes of many people,

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they hang around, cluttering up the place and you all have to get on

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with your lives? Who would be running the Oxfam clothes shop if

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it wasn't for older people. Who would be doing what's left of Meals

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on Wheels. If it wasn't for the WVS, which is womaned by ladies in tweed

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skirts. It is fantastic. You know what I'm getting at? I would say

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even the simplest and narrowest form of selfishness, how we treat

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older people today is how we will be treated in the future. All the

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things will come back to us. Just as we have an obligation to young

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people, and the obligation we discharge to young people will be

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how we, in turn, will be treated. Once people think through those

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obligations in the generations, behaviour improves. There are

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intergenerational tensions too, young people are having a very hard

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time of it now, are they really going to welcome the idea that more

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resources be diverted to caring for older people, who have had it

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consistently improving throughout their lives? I don't think they

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should or they will. I think that fundamentally we ought to be much

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more open about dying, because I think old people ought to be used

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to the fact that they are approaching death. I particularly

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think that the medical profession is add fault here. Because doctors

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really aren't interested in dying, once you know somebody is either

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very old or terminally ill or something, doctors rather stand

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back. But actually I think their role ought to be to talk to aged

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people and make them realise that there is a difference between a

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good death and lingering on. Encourage people to say, to make a

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living will, for instance, and say if I get pneumonia, please don't

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give me antibiotics. If more people did that I think there would be far

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fewer of these wretched people in hospital, with which we started.

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There is a difference between the problem of people being shamefully

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neglected in hospital, and people being lonely in their own houses.

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Loot of people will find that idea pretty tricky and offensive,

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frankly? Yes, the word that most, I find most offensive in what lady

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Warner said was the word - Lady Warner said was the word "ought",

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it is an option, we all know it is there. We don't. Well, gof has had

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an awful lot of, Dignitas has had an awful lot of publicity. I don't

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think there there should be an "ought" in it. We need compassion,

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and compassion can be taught. You can't just say we have a lot of old

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people we better get rid of some of them. That is absolutely right.

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Compassion very often means allowing somebody to die, rather

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than struggling to keep them alive. But I think, in way, this is the

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fundamental question, that so many old people in hospital are being

:16:50.:16:56.

kept alive against their will. Emma Soames's point is crucial,

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compassion can be taught. We should not allow the wider points to

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exclude these cases that staff in hospitals should have been doing

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better. It is now two-and-a-half years

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since the Telegraph started publishing details of the claims

:17:11.:17:15.

some politicians were making against the taxpayer. The

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prosecutions aren't over, but four former MPs and two members of the

:17:19.:17:22.

House of Lords have been sent to prise son. One of the convicted

:17:22.:17:27.

politicians, the Labour member for Barnsley Central, Eric Illsley, was

:17:27.:17:34.

sentenced to a year in prison, but was released early. He was

:17:34.:17:36.

Barnsley's Labour MP for 23 years, he became a prison inmate in

:17:36.:17:40.

February this year. Not a moment too soon for some of his

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constituents. I think it is disgusting, I really do. He

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deserves everything he gets. Yet he had stood for parliament and

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within returned with an 11,000 majority, after committing the

:17:58.:18:00.

offences to which he would plead guilty. Mr Illsley claimed that he

:18:00.:18:04.

had been unfairly singled out for criminal investigation. When

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charges were laid, after he had retained his seat, the Labour Party

:18:09.:18:13.

expelled him. But he clung on, as an independent MP, and only

:18:13.:18:19.

resigned from the Commons two days before he entered jail. His

:18:19.:18:24.

offence? Fiddling his bills, falsely claiming for insurance,

:18:24.:18:30.

repairs and council tax for years. He admitted stealing over �14,000

:18:30.:18:34.

from the taxpayer. In May this year, he was released from prison, three

:18:34.:18:39.

months into a year-long sentence, to live at home under curfew.

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The judge at his trial said he had tarnished the reputation of both

:18:44.:18:50.

the politicians and of parliament. Eric Illsley, you accept that it

:18:50.:18:53.

was right that you were tried and it was right that you were

:18:53.:18:57.

punished? I pleaded guilty, I accepted what was coming to me. I

:18:57.:19:02.

pleaded guilty and got on with it. I'm not expected public sympathy,

:19:02.:19:05.

as you questioned in the introduction. I have never sought

:19:05.:19:09.

that. The point I want to make when I accepted your invitation to do

:19:09.:19:14.

this interview, is to try to explain to the public just how few

:19:14.:19:17.

MPs were actually investigated by Scotland Yard. Let alone prosecuted.

:19:17.:19:22.

Only a handful of MPs were investigated, hundreds of MPs were

:19:22.:19:26.

allowed to repay quite large sums of money secretly. Do you think

:19:26.:19:30.

everyone should have been allowed to do that? I think there should

:19:30.:19:33.

have been some fairness within the system, either parliament should

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have been allowed to deal with everyone, including me, and other

:19:37.:19:40.

colleagues who were prosecuted, or Scotland Yard and the Crown

:19:40.:19:50.
:19:50.:19:51.

Prosecution Service should have dealt with everyone. They only

:19:51.:19:56.

looked at a few cases. Just because they didn't try and convict

:19:56.:20:02.

everyone who committed the crime, doesn't mean some shouldn't have

:20:02.:20:06.

been tryed and convicted? general public could easily think

:20:06.:20:11.

that those of us who were prosecuted were the worst offenders,

:20:11.:20:21.

clearly we weren't. �1.5 million was repaid by MPs by the May 2010

:20:21.:20:25.

general election, by hundreds, only a handful of cases were prosecute.

:20:25.:20:28.

You have conceded you were wrong and were right to have been tried

:20:28.:20:32.

and right to have been punished. You are saying not enough MPs were

:20:32.:20:37.

punished? If you like, or looked at or investigated by the same

:20:37.:20:41.

authorities that investigated me. Do you feel shame? Of course. Of

:20:41.:20:49.

course I do. Why did you do it? at the time, and when I say "we", a

:20:49.:20:53.

lot of MPs claimed the allowance as an allowance, as an annual amount

:20:53.:20:57.

for the upkeep of a second home and living in London, and claimed

:20:57.:21:01.

towards the maximum. You knew it was dodgy? I think everybody knew

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it was dodgy. The system had been discredited time and time again,

:21:06.:21:11.

and there were...That Is no excuse? I'm not looking for an excuse, I'm

:21:11.:21:16.

not saying what I did wasn't wrong. I pleaded guilty, I put my hand up

:21:16.:21:21.

and said what I did was wrong. My point is, if hi done that, surely

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Scotland Yard or the Crown Prosecution Service should have

:21:25.:21:30.

looked at every other case of those MPs who did exactly the same as me.

:21:30.:21:34.

Why do you think they decided to act against you and only handful of

:21:34.:21:38.

others? I have no idea, I have never been told that. I have no

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idea why or what criteria they used for selection. I have no idea why I

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don't know the handful of MPs were investigated that were investigated.

:21:54.:21:58.

For every MP prosecuted there is a parallel case of another MP or a

:21:58.:22:02.

few MPs, who have been allowed to repay in secret and carry on with

:22:02.:22:06.

their careers. How many MPs were on the take? I went through the

:22:06.:22:12.

expenses claims of all 650 or so MPs. I checked every one. And I

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listed 120 who had claimed in exactly the same way as I had.

:22:16.:22:20.

think there should have been over 100 prosecuted? Or investigated at

:22:20.:22:25.

the very least, by the authorities who investigated, in the thorough

:22:25.:22:29.

way I was investigated. Do you feel the experience of going to prison

:22:29.:22:34.

did you good? No. Why not? I don't think it achieved anything. It

:22:34.:22:38.

punished me, obviously, I was deprived of my liberty and sent to

:22:38.:22:42.

prison. How were you treated in jail? Reasonably well, quite well.

:22:42.:22:46.

I wasn't treated any differently from anyone else, I have not been

:22:46.:22:50.

leased early as such, I have been released in the same way as any

:22:50.:22:56.

other prisoner would have been in the same category and the same

:22:56.:23:02.

circumstances as I was. As far as your current financial arrangements

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concerned, are you getting the MPs' pension? I'm ecomomically inactive

:23:07.:23:12.

at the moment. It will be hard to find work or employment in the

:23:12.:23:17.

future. Are you looking? Not at the moment, no. But I'm not testing the

:23:17.:23:23.

water yet. What is your pension worth? That is for me and the

:23:23.:23:27.

pensions authorities. It is not great. The taxpayer is paying you a

:23:27.:23:30.

pension despite what happened? much reduced pension because of my

:23:30.:23:35.

age and circumstances. But not all of that pension was achieved during

:23:35.:23:45.
:23:45.:23:49.

my employment as a member of Parliament. Listen up you fatties,

:23:49.:23:54.

if the Newsnight audience are prepentive as a whole, then we are

:23:54.:23:58.

over 50% of us obese. In some European countries Governments are

:23:58.:24:02.

tackling what everyone recognises is a health timebomb by regulating

:24:02.:24:06.

or taxing food manufacturers, as we do with cigarettes. But the British

:24:06.:24:08.

Government announced today it believes instead of asking us all

:24:08.:24:13.

to have a little think about what we eat and to stop guzzling so much

:24:13.:24:17.

junk. Our science editor is here. Talk us through this?

:24:17.:24:24.

Government is saying we should, essentially, eat less, quite a lot

:24:24.:24:30.

less. Five billion calories aday across England. Which is the -

:24:30.:24:34.

calories a day across England. Which is 500 million cheese burgers.

:24:34.:24:40.

Few people would disagree with that as a health message. But there is a

:24:40.:24:44.

strong reaction that in tackling obesity it is not enough in the

:24:44.:24:54.
:24:54.:25:17.

scale of the problem. If we look at That's the scale of the problem.

:25:17.:25:20.

This strategy is designed to deal with it. The emphasis is very much

:25:20.:25:27.

on personal responsibility, and the contentious bit is that the food

:25:27.:25:31.

industry is being asked only, well encouraged to take action, to

:25:31.:25:37.

reduce fat, sugar, calorie content from food. Very much in emphasis on

:25:37.:25:40.

voluntary action rather than legislation. That is not wholly

:25:40.:25:43.

surprising, the Government has always said it wanted to work with

:25:43.:25:48.

industry. Back in March the Health Secretary said let's have these

:25:48.:25:52.

responsibility deals on public health. He set up five networks

:25:52.:25:56.

dealing with food, alcohol, physical activity, health at work,

:25:56.:25:59.

behaviour change. He's working with companies, who have to make pledges

:25:59.:26:09.
:26:09.:26:11.

that they will take action. Some of The Government argues we need those

:26:11.:26:15.

people, they have the expertise, the power to make changes. Critics

:26:16.:26:19.

are worried that they shouldn't be anywhere near health policy.

:26:20.:26:22.

Government should set policy because the policies could end up

:26:22.:26:26.

hitting their profits. What has been the reaction to this strategy,

:26:26.:26:30.

as such it is? It hasn't been wholly supportive today. Quite a

:26:30.:26:34.

lot of critical voices saying it is all very well to ask people to take

:26:34.:26:37.

personal responsibility, but you are ignoring how difficult it is to

:26:37.:26:41.

do that. We are bombarded with adverts for food all the time, fast

:26:41.:26:50.

food is everywhere. We are all seeding sedintary lifestyles. They

:26:50.:26:58.

pointed back - living sedintary lifestyles. They pointed back to

:26:58.:27:01.

policy, they said you needed sufficient intervention by

:27:01.:27:05.

Government, so you are looking at taxes on fatties and sweet food,

:27:05.:27:10.

you are looking at retructions and marketing.

:27:11.:27:13.

Professor Philip James is President of the Interational Association for

:27:13.:27:20.

the studio of obesity, and Dr Susan Jebb is a nutrition scientists at

:27:20.:27:26.

the medical research group. Is this approach going to work?

:27:26.:27:29.

Almost certainly not on the basis of the evidence and all the

:27:29.:27:35.

analysis. Apart from what we have just heard from the Lancet, the

:27:35.:27:40.

OECD, the inter-governmental think- tank in Paris, they did very

:27:40.:27:44.

meticulous an allies of the economics of the disaster that is

:27:44.:27:48.

to - analysis of the economics of the disaster to come, and it

:27:48.:27:53.

required fundamental changes in the food supply, as well as physical

:27:53.:28:00.

activity. What is gained by not adopting a more agrossive strategy?

:28:00.:28:06.

We may well - Aggressive strategy? We may well make progress faster.

:28:06.:28:10.

Food companies find a lot of time finding loopholes and getting round

:28:10.:28:15.

it, if we can get them constructively engaging with the it

:28:15.:28:19.

of it, we can make quicker and further progress by regulation.

:28:19.:28:24.

There you have? They have been sabotaging every single public

:28:24.:28:28.

health initiative for the last 30 years. If you talk to the top food

:28:28.:28:34.

companies, and you ask them how they increased their profits, it is

:28:34.:28:37.

by marketing, manipulating the price and getting their food

:28:37.:28:40.

absolutely everywhere. Therefore, they are very worried, that if you

:28:40.:28:44.

tackle those key things, that is going to affect the bottom line.

:28:44.:28:48.

They are much better off in this sort of vague interaction and so on.

:28:48.:28:53.

Are you thinking of adopting a similar strategy with cigarette

:28:53.:28:58.

manufacturers? I'm responsible for food, not smoking. You believe in

:28:58.:29:02.

it as far as obesity goes, why not believe it as far as cigarettes go?

:29:02.:29:07.

Let's clarify what I do, I'm the independent chair of the Food

:29:07.:29:09.

Network, which brings industry and public health officials together.

:29:09.:29:13.

My job as the chair is to try to get the best possible deal out of

:29:13.:29:17.

that structure for public health. It doesn't preclude regulation, but

:29:17.:29:21.

that is the strategy which is in place, and we need, for the sake of

:29:21.:29:25.

public health, to try to make as much progress as we can. As an

:29:25.:29:32.

acknowledged expert in this field, do you really believe that Kraft,

:29:32.:29:37.

McDonalds, KFC and business za hut r they qualified to - Pizza Hut,

:29:37.:29:41.

are they qualified to advise on the subject? We are not asking them to

:29:41.:29:45.

advise, we are asking them to reduce the calorie content, by

:29:45.:29:50.

reducing portion size and fat content. I can't do that, the food

:29:50.:29:54.

industry has to change their products. It is have difficult to

:29:54.:29:57.

think how to regulate to make - it is very difficult to think how to

:29:57.:30:02.

regulate to make that happen. are difficult cash-strapped types,

:30:02.:30:05.

people are already having - times, people are already having

:30:05.:30:10.

difficulty making ends meet, to put tax on fat and sugars and the like,

:30:10.:30:15.

is simply going to increase the cost of food, why should should

:30:15.:30:19.

people be expected pay for more it? That is the key point in the

:30:19.:30:22.

current financial crisis. It is very clear that everybody, except

:30:22.:30:26.

the rich, change their food purchases when you change prices.

:30:26.:30:32.

You actual lie don't have to increase or de- actually don't have

:30:32.:30:37.

to increase or decrease the price. Analysis done in Denmark shows you

:30:37.:30:40.

have marked changes in food intake with very small changes in price.

:30:40.:30:44.

But actually if you want to tackle this properly, and we went into

:30:44.:30:47.

this with the Health Select Committee, years ago. You actually

:30:47.:30:52.

need to, as with alcohol, and tobacco, and those are used more by

:30:52.:30:56.

the poorer people, it is regressive. Taxes are regressive, but you have

:30:56.:31:00.

to compensate that with an economic strategy, and that is exactly what

:31:00.:31:05.

they are doing in Denmark. How long are you prepared to give

:31:05.:31:09.

it? It is not that question, my job is to get the best out of it we

:31:09.:31:12.

possibly K what is important in all the pledges we have in the food

:31:12.:31:16.

network, it is a commitment to monitoring and evaluation. We have

:31:16.:31:19.

to be able to see that progress is being made. I really welcome the

:31:19.:31:24.

fact that. Within what time? takes time. We are monitoring these

:31:24.:31:27.

things on an annual basis, we will see the progress. What is important

:31:27.:31:31.

is there is a plan B. It is interesting that ministers have

:31:31.:31:37.

indicated they are very viewing the international evidence to consider

:31:37.:31:41.

what it is. If I was to say it is clear from the strategy that what

:31:41.:31:43.

has happened sensible health- conscious people, advising the

:31:43.:31:47.

Government, have been nobbled by the food companies what do you say?

:31:47.:31:50.

I don't think there is any evidence for that. No evidence at all, you

:31:50.:31:56.

really believe that? I do. I sit on that Food Network Panel, we have

:31:56.:31:59.

half-a-dozen people from the food industry, five or six people from

:31:59.:32:05.

the public health sector, we have the faculty of public health and

:32:05.:32:07.

the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition. What we have today is

:32:07.:32:11.

the Government setting out a clear mandate to set out clear action.

:32:11.:32:16.

They are setting the policy but asking industry to do the delivery.

:32:16.:32:22.

Susan is trying to cope. We, my team saw Andrew Lansley before the

:32:22.:32:26.

election, he understood all we were talking about. Who comes in

:32:26.:32:29.

somebody we haven't heard about called David Cameron, saying forget

:32:29.:32:33.

about it, this is all personal responsibility, I will have nothing

:32:33.:32:38.

done that in any way impairs the British food industry. We better

:32:38.:32:44.

hope that you are wrong and voluntary measures will work.

:32:44.:32:49.

remarkable initiative if it is true, it hasn't happened anywhere else.

:32:49.:32:53.

This isn't just about regulation, we need better treatment. We have

:32:53.:32:56.

60% of adults already obese. This strategy is absolutely set out, not

:32:57.:33:00.

only to prevent more people getting fat, but to encourage us to take

:33:00.:33:04.

some real action to actually help those who have got established

:33:04.:33:12.

obesity problems. Thank you very much. With the

:33:12.:33:17.

nights drawing in, it is time to get a woolie sweater, it is

:33:17.:33:21.

available to the 93 high street branches of Edinburgh Woollen Mill.

:33:21.:33:28.

It says "designed in Scotland 100% cashmere". What the label doesn't

:33:28.:33:34.

say is it wasn't actually made in Scotland, but approximately 4,000

:33:34.:33:39.

though-odd miles away, in among goalia, by North Korean workers -

:33:39.:33:47.

Mongolia, by North Korean workers. Edinburgh, tradition, the castle,

:33:47.:33:52.

the little craft shops where tourists can buy quality products,

:33:52.:33:57.

woven in Scotland, like cashmere sweaters. Then there is Edinburgh

:33:57.:34:02.

Woollen Mill, one of the UK's largest clothing chains, with 500

:34:02.:34:06.

locations around Britain. I have picked up one of their popular

:34:06.:34:16.
:34:16.:34:16.

sweaters for �70, marked down from �140. The label says James Pringle,

:34:16.:34:19.

100% cashmere, designed in Scotland. What it doesn't say on the label or

:34:19.:34:24.

on the website, is where it was made. If you thought it was woven

:34:24.:34:31.

by skilled Scottish craftsman, you are in for - craftsmen, you are in

:34:31.:34:36.

for a surprise. They come from a little further away.

:34:36.:34:43.

# I would walk 1,000 miles # Just to be that man that walked

:34:43.:34:47.

# A thousand miles # Just to fall down at your door

:34:47.:34:53.

I have come to the other side of the world to find out exactly what

:34:53.:34:58.

EWM's cashmere sweaters are made. It turns out it is here, in

:34:58.:35:03.

Mongolia, in an industrial zone on the outskirts of the capital.

:35:03.:35:07.

They are very happy and proud to be working with Edinburgh Woollen Mill.

:35:07.:35:12.

They have joined us about five years ago. We have worked together

:35:12.:35:17.

to develop the prok ducts and the quality, and to - products, and the

:35:17.:35:22.

quality, and to teach us how to be good export manufacturers.

:35:22.:35:25.

Mongolian shepherds are some of the most prolific producers of cashmere.

:35:26.:35:31.

It is no surprise that the wool is sourced here. What is rather

:35:31.:35:36.

unexpected is that many of the workers at the cashmere factory in

:35:36.:35:42.

Mongolia come from North Korea. The North Korean workers fill in

:35:42.:35:46.

very well with Mongolian people, they are hard workers, they don't

:35:46.:35:51.

complain and get stuck in, they are quite skill. They are looked after

:35:51.:35:54.

by the company, they have a dormitary, food, showers,

:35:54.:35:58.

television. They fit in very, very well.

:35:58.:36:03.

They get food and board, but there is a mystery about what happens to

:36:03.:36:07.

their wages. At the factory, we were told that the company paid the

:36:07.:36:10.

North Korean Government, not the workers directly. This is the final

:36:11.:36:15.

process, the section where all the cleaning, pressing, ironing,

:36:15.:36:20.

quality control. Then the labelling. Can you show me one of the ones

:36:20.:36:24.

that might be going to the UK? can have a look over here and we

:36:24.:36:33.

can see one already packed. This is a James Pringle EWM sweater,

:36:33.:36:37.

machine washable. Exactly the same as the one we bought in Edinburgh,

:36:37.:36:42.

even down to the labelling. Designed in Scotland, but made in

:36:42.:36:48.

Mongolia, by North Koreans. Which is strange, because North

:36:48.:36:54.

Korea isn't exactly known for its stylish knitwear. North Korea is

:36:54.:36:58.

better known for making missiles and testing nuclear weapons, in the

:36:58.:37:03.

face of United Nations sanctions. It is the most regimented and

:37:03.:37:08.

repressive regime on earth. 200,000 are held in concentration camps for

:37:08.:37:12.

incurring the wrath of the leader. And North Korean citizens aren't

:37:12.:37:15.

allowed to leave the country without permission, and can be

:37:15.:37:21.

executed if they are caught fleeing. There is an exception, though, the

:37:21.:37:30.

labour brigades. In 2009, I revealed on Newsnight, a

:37:30.:37:33.

British-owned company that was using North Korean labour gangs to

:37:33.:37:38.

cut timber in Russia. The money for the wages was paid directly to the

:37:38.:37:44.

North Korean Government. They are earning up to $7 million a year,

:37:44.:37:47.

that is going to the North Korean Government, are you concerned about

:37:47.:37:50.

how the North Korean Government use that is money? As far as the

:37:50.:37:54.

agreements we have in place, the money is going through to the

:37:54.:37:58.

Ministry of Forestry of North Korea. As for what it is use the for in

:37:58.:38:02.

North Korea is not - used for in North Korea is not of our interest.

:38:02.:38:06.

While I was in Mongolia, visiting the factory that makes sweaters for

:38:06.:38:10.

Edinburgh Woollen Mill, I came across this construction site.

:38:10.:38:13.

There are about 50 North Korean construction workers in the pit

:38:13.:38:17.

below me. It is where they eat, sleep and work. Because the

:38:17.:38:20.

Mongolian security guards have instructions not to let them out

:38:20.:38:23.

beyond the fence. Thousands of North Koreans have been brought to

:38:23.:38:26.

Mongolia over the last few years, in an arrangement that has been

:38:26.:38:30.

very profitable for the private companies that are exploiting their

:38:30.:38:33.

ultra cheap labour. The question is, how much are the North Korean

:38:33.:38:39.

workers benefiting themselves? A Mongolian running a kiosk next

:38:39.:38:44.

door to the construction site, told me he initially thought the North

:38:44.:38:49.

Koreans were prisoners because they were never let off the site. When I

:38:49.:38:53.

went back to the factory where they make sweaters for Edinburgh Woollen

:38:53.:38:56.

Mill. The director of exports told me that their North Korean workers

:38:56.:39:00.

were treated much better, they were allowed to leave the factory. What

:39:00.:39:04.

about their wages? He said they paid the North Korean Government,

:39:04.:39:08.

it was up to them to decide how much they gave the workers. I

:39:08.:39:11.

understand that usually with North Koreans you pay the Government and

:39:11.:39:16.

the Government pays them, is that correct? We are transfering the

:39:16.:39:26.
:39:26.:39:39.

So North Korea was effectively exporting its work force to raise

:39:39.:39:45.

money for the regime. So is this factory which makes EWM sweaters

:39:45.:39:51.

effectively subsidising the lead he, I'm back in Scotland - the leader.

:39:51.:39:56.

I'm back in Scotland to see if they are happy about the North Korean

:39:56.:40:00.

connection. They agreed the factory in Mongolia supplies them with

:40:00.:40:03.

jumpers, and said they were made by a work force, including North

:40:03.:40:06.

Koreans. To my surprise, Edinburgh Woollen Mill, did not confirm what

:40:06.:40:12.

we had been told about how the North Koreans were paid. They said

:40:12.:40:16.

they were told to fund were paid to North Korea or any North Korean

:40:16.:40:21.

agency. That is in stark contrast to what we were told on the ground

:40:21.:40:23.

which was the North Korean Government was getting money from

:40:23.:40:26.

there. They say all the wages are paid

:40:26.:40:31.

into the workers' bank accounts, again, that's difficult to square

:40:31.:40:36.

with what we have been told in Mongolia. The company says the

:40:36.:40:39.

North Koreans are people who freely left the country who-to-look for

:40:39.:40:49.
:40:49.:40:52.

Again, that's difficult to reconcile with a nation which

:40:52.:40:58.

executes people for trying to flee the country. I wanted to talk to

:40:58.:41:04.

the North Koreans at the cashmere factory, but the embassy said no.

:41:04.:41:08.

I wanted to ask how much they earned personally from the

:41:08.:41:11.

arrangement. Then factory officials stopped us filming and escorted us

:41:11.:41:17.

outside. Edinburgh Woollen Mill told us

:41:17.:41:21.

labelling garments made in Mongolia as designed in Scotland is

:41:21.:41:25.

factually correct. Although there is no longer a legal requirement to

:41:25.:41:31.

label clothes with their country of origin. It is an offence to mislead

:41:31.:41:35.

customers about where a product is made. The Trading Standards

:41:35.:41:45.
:41:45.:41:54.

Now the Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, was unable to turn out for the

:41:54.:41:58.

keel-laying ceremony for one of the most powerful submarines built in

:41:58.:42:02.

Britain today. Logistical reasons, he said, had he been there he would

:42:02.:42:08.

have trailed the claque that has followed him after questions were

:42:08.:42:11.

raised about the precise relationship he had with friend,

:42:11.:42:21.

Adam Werritty, who described him self - himself as an "advisor", his

:42:21.:42:25.

charity is now defunct. The doctor was out and about today,

:42:25.:42:30.

brisk on his rounds, saying all was well. We are at the end stage,

:42:30.:42:34.

possibly, of the Libyan conflict. I have just had a discussion with the

:42:34.:42:38.

Foreign Secretary. The conflict that is far from ended is the one

:42:38.:42:42.

over the special relationship with Dr Fox's best friend. We have been

:42:42.:42:46.

examining their involvement in a controversial charity.

:42:46.:42:50.

Atlantic Bridge was set up by Liam Fox to promote another special

:42:50.:42:55.

relationship, that between the UK and the US. Four years ago Fox

:42:55.:42:59.

installed Adam Werritty to run the Bridge. By the time the charity was

:42:59.:43:05.

wound up this year, he had been paid some �0,000.

:43:05.:43:09.

Atlantic Bridge ran into trouble with its activities during

:43:09.:43:14.

America's health care debate. The charity, in the eyes of a Labour

:43:14.:43:18.

Party blogger, were breaking the rules. I first came across the

:43:18.:43:24.

Atlantic scam bridge in the summer of 200 - Atlantic Bridge, in the

:43:24.:43:32.

summer of 2009, when President Obama was campaigning. They used

:43:32.:43:39.

the NHS as a test case of what can go wrong with health care. This was

:43:39.:43:45.

buyia, and when Lady Thatcher attended a dinner by Atlantic scam

:43:45.:43:50.

bridge for a medal. One of the former trustees denies it had a

:43:50.:43:54.

political tilt. Not true, there was plenty across the spectrum. We were

:43:54.:43:59.

very concerned about that. wasn't politically right-wing?

:43:59.:44:03.

not an expert on American politics, but, yes, there are plenty. And

:44:03.:44:12.

there are plenty in Britain, and on the left is Lord Asquith, not very

:44:12.:44:17.

left-wing and one of my colleagues. He is a Tory peer and Conservative

:44:17.:44:21.

ministers. I was just very surprised to discover they were a

:44:21.:44:24.

charity. I was aware that charities aren't allowed to be party

:44:24.:44:28.

political. And so I started thinking, and the more I dug on,

:44:28.:44:33.

the more obvious it was to me they were a charity and political

:44:33.:44:36.

organisation. They described their aim to bring the special

:44:36.:44:40.

relationship back to where it was under Thatcher and Reagan. All of

:44:40.:44:43.

their advisory board members were Conservative MPs, and closely

:44:43.:44:46.

linked with the Conservative Party. So I wrote to the Charity

:44:46.:44:49.

Commission, to alert them to my concerns.

:44:49.:44:55.

On the advisory board of Atlantic Bridge was George Osborne, William

:44:55.:44:59.

Hague, Chris Grayling, Michael Gove and Liam Fox. In America, too, the

:44:59.:45:03.

Bridge people were overwhelmingly Conservative and Republican. The

:45:03.:45:08.

Charity Commission investigated. While these investigations were

:45:08.:45:14.

going on, Atlantic Bridge Inc, the American operation, was mindful the

:45:14.:45:18.

whole show was under threat. When the chief executive extoled the

:45:18.:45:21.

wonders of David Cameron, before the UK election last year, she

:45:21.:45:25.

stressed she was speaking in a private, personal capacity, the

:45:25.:45:29.

Bridge couldn't be party political. Other leading Tory ministers have

:45:29.:45:36.

come over and have made a point of seeing Democrats as well as

:45:36.:45:41.

Republicans. As indeed they should. Are they making any headway there?

:45:41.:45:47.

Think so. But who funded Werritty's trips with the doctor. When he

:45:47.:45:51.

stayed in Dubai, he reportedly cited his company as Atlantic

:45:51.:45:56.

Bridge. Atlantic Bridge is transnational thing, there is

:45:56.:46:01.

another organisation in the US that continues to this day called

:46:01.:46:06.

Atlantic Bridge. One former Atlantic Bridger in America said

:46:06.:46:10.

they had paid not one time for Werritty's travels, and described

:46:10.:46:18.

the situation as a "bloody mess". Amanda Bowman who we met last year,

:46:18.:46:23.

is running Transatlantic Bridge, and refused to speak on camera. But

:46:23.:46:29.

did talk about the happy amateurism of the Werritty era. He's closer to

:46:29.:46:33.

Liam than anyone in the world, except his wife. It is hard to

:46:33.:46:39.

characterise their relationship, if you want to smell test Mr Fox on

:46:39.:46:44.

any situation, Werritty was the go- to guy.

:46:44.:46:49.

Liam Fox was still single minded in his job today, and is still holding

:46:49.:46:54.

on to his job. I'm doing what is needed today, the Defence Secretary

:46:54.:46:59.

focuses on defence. The Times tomorrow claims that Mr Werritty

:46:59.:47:04.

was funded by a private was funded by a private

:47:04.:47:09.

intelligence group. The Telegraph has news Dr Fox and

:47:09.:47:19.

Adam Werritty attended a $500 dinner, which was not declared.

:47:19.:47:24.

The Mirror has an extraordinary story about Oliver Letwin, the

:47:24.:47:29.

Cabinet Office minister, he seems to be dumping a confidential and

:47:29.:47:33.

secret documents, torn up, into a rubbish bin in the park. He has

:47:33.:47:38.

given us a statement tonight, apparently in which he says, or a

:47:38.:47:43.

spokesperson says he does some of his parliamentary and constituency

:47:43.:47:47.

course dense in the park before going to work. - correspondence in

:47:47.:47:51.

the park before going to work. They are not documents of a sensitive

:47:51.:48:01.
:48:01.:48:04.

Hello, we should have more sunshine around tomorrow. The cloud already

:48:04.:48:08.

breaking early in the morning across the south-east of England.

:48:08.:48:14.

Some sunny spells here. Brightening up across England and Wales. The

:48:14.:48:19.

bulk of Northern Ireland rainy. A much better afternoon across the

:48:19.:48:24.

north of England, 16. Sunny spells in the Midland, and the best of the

:48:24.:48:30.

sunshine maybe in the south-east of England, not as warm as today. 21

:48:30.:48:35.

in Southampton. Improving all the while across the south west, a grey,

:48:35.:48:38.

misty start, sunshine breaking through in the afternoon. Sunshine

:48:38.:48:42.

in Wales, particularly the east. The west still cloudy. More cloud

:48:42.:48:45.

as you cross the Irish Sea towards Northern Ireland. A little rain or

:48:45.:48:49.

drizzle not far away. Especially later in the afternoon. The north

:48:49.:48:54.

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