12/10/2011 Newsnight


12/10/2011

The latest on the row over Liam Fox's friendship with lobbyist Adam Werritty, which continues to dominate the headlines. Presented by Jeremy Paxman.


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Worse than it's been for years, and likely to get worse still. Over 2.5

:00:09.:00:19.
:00:19.:00:20.

million without a job, and every It is sad because I know I'm a hard

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worker, I do my best, it would be great to find a job. It's my

:00:26.:00:29.

goal.If It is like this before the next stage of the economic crisis.

:00:30.:00:36.

What on earth can be done? The bosses of big selling

:00:36.:00:43.

newspapers come out fighting against further regulation. Both

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Steve Coogan and Louise Mensch have been dufd up by the tabloids, but

:00:49.:00:56.

both agree they have a case. The Defence Secretary continues his "am

:00:56.:01:00.

I bothered" act, how much longer can he keep it up. I believe that

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Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the saviour of mankind. The front

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runner for the Republican presidential nomination, tries to

:01:08.:01:14.

overcome the criticism that he belongs to a cult. This Texas

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:01:24.:01:24.

Pastor will tell us why are Mormon - a Mormon is not fit for the White

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House. There are more people out of work

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in this country than at any time in the last 17 years. 2.5 million of

:01:34.:01:37.

them, 8% of the work force. It is one thing to lose their job, it is

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another type of misery again, to come out of education and find

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society seems to have no place for you. The picture for youth

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unemployment is especially bad. There are nearly a million young

:01:47.:01:54.

people without a job. Paul Mason is here. You better give us the gory

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details. As you say they are 8.1% unemployment, that is a 17-year

:01:59.:02:06.

high. If we drill into the figures, youth unemployment, 21.6%, that is

:02:06.:02:09.

getting towards south European levels of youth unemployment. And

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there are about a million youth unemployed. Drill down even further,

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of the jobs lost in the last three months, 178,000, the vast majority

:02:19.:02:23.

were part-time. You start to see loads of women, loads of public

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sector workers. If we do one more drill down, this is a problem for

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the Government. Private sector job creation is up in the last three

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months, public sector job losses, 111,000. What you have is a

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beginning of a breakdown in the narrative. We were led to believe

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the public sector job losses would be offset by the private sector job

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creation. That is why the Prime Minister stood up and said this

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today. I accept we have to do more to get our economy moving, to get

:02:53.:02:58.

jobs for our people. But we mustn't abandon the plan that has given us

:02:58.:03:05.

record low interest rates. The fact that there hasn't been the take up

:03:05.:03:10.

predicted is to do with growth. Realistically, what can be done?

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have already plan A plus, which is �75 billion of quantitative easing,

:03:15.:03:18.

credit easing is proposed. That is the Government becoming a proxy

:03:18.:03:22.

lender to small business, we think �10 billion if that ever happens.

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That is long-term, the debate now in the Government's growth review

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is whether you can do a big jolt a defibrillation of the economy.

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There is a whole list of suggestions in tomorrow's New

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Statesman, through correspondents the Government will respect. It is

:03:39.:03:43.

massive tax cut, through VAT or business tax, or it is some further

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or more radical version of lending direct to the public. There are

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calls for state bank. There is a number of employers' organisations

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thinking about a state investment bank. Ultimately I think the

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Government cabinet this week discussed things like ripping up a

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few European regulations. Let nothing get in the way of growth.

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They have got to come up with something, this is a story of a

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narrative slightly spiralling out of control. A lot of it is to do

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with global conditions, conditions at least elsewhere in the world?

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just happened to be the most globalised of the most developed

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economies, so it is a problem. When the Government's original austerity

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plan was thought up in November 2010, they thought there would be

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growth in Europe and America, and our economy would rebalance,

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becoming more export orientated and manufacturing orientated because

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the demand would be there, but the demand is gone. And if it is

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happening at all it is slow. That is the context in which the

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political debate fakes place. Even business groups now - takes place.

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Even the business groups, it is not the rabid left, even business

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groups are saying let's have a demand stimulus quite soon, please.

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If the prospects for young people in this country are bleak, imagine

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what it must be like elsewhere in Europe. In Spain, for example,

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youth unemployment is running at getting on for 50%. The world the

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young were educated for no longer exists, that is before the

:05:12.:05:15.

eurocrisis comes crashing through the door like some out of control

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juggernaut. What started off as a Greek problem

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has turned into a full blown European crisis. Are politicians in

:05:25.:05:30.

Europe using a pea shooter instead of David Cameron's weapon of choice,

:05:30.:05:35.

a big Baz sook ka. One thing is for sure, unless the big guns arrive,

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the whole shooting gallery will collapse. Financial markets are

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convinced that Europe's weaker economies simply won't be able to

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repay all their debts. In an effort to do exactly that, European

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Governments have slashed their deficits and forced millions on to

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the dole queues. Of the three countries already getting a bailout

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from the IMF and the EU, unemployment has soared, Portugal

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has 12% out of work, Ireland 14%, and that's rampant job creation

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compared to Spain's 21% unemployed. How does Portugal with the debt

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mountain of 93% of national income aim to repay its debts. I was in

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the position when the external assistance programme was asked and

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negotiated. I stand in favour of that programme. I knew how the

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situation was extremely difficult for my country. One of the

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differences in the Portuguese story is we have a large political

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consensus in Portugal about this programme and its obligations. 5%

:06:49.:06:52.

of the Members of Parliament, despite the differences you can -

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85% of the Members of Parliament, despite the differences between the

:07:00.:07:05.

- Government and the opposition, are in favour of the deal with the

:07:05.:07:10.

IMF and other institutions. Unemployment in the UK is at 8%, my

:07:10.:07:14.

guess is the Portuguese Government would love that level of

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unemployment? It is true, I would love to have that unemployment

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level. The eurozone would love if it only had an unemployment crisis,

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apart from millions of people out of work, there is banking cry sai,

:07:30.:07:33.

many of Europe's largest banks simply may not survive. Then there

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is the issue of where the growth comes from. Even the strongest

:07:38.:07:42.

economy, Germany, has stuttered to a stall in the last few months.

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Then there is political paralysis, there doesn't seem to be any way

:07:45.:07:49.

for European leaders to get around the table and agree a way forward.

:07:49.:07:53.

That is what President Barroso is, at least, hoping to alleviate.

:07:53.:07:59.

To that end, the EU commission President was hoping today to put a

:07:59.:08:02.

proverbial bomb under eurozone leaders, for example, France and

:08:02.:08:08.

Germany, to solve the crisis. strategy should comprise of five

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key steps. It should include all potential systemic banks identified

:08:15.:08:18.

by the European banking authority across all member states. It should

:08:19.:08:25.

take account of all sovereign debt exposure in full transparency. It

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should involve a temporarily higher capital ratio after accounting for

:08:31.:08:35.

exposure. Banks that do not have the required capital should present

:08:35.:08:39.

and then implement plans to have it in place as swiftly as possible,

:08:39.:08:44.

and until they have done so, they should be prevented from paying out

:08:44.:08:47.

dividends and bonuses by the national supervisors.

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APPLAUSE Three years ago Europe's

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Governments spent billions, hundreds of billions bailing out

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their banks. That prevented a financial crisis turning into an

:08:59.:09:03.

outright depression. The problem three years later, as we face

:09:03.:09:07.

another financial crisis is that the Government simply don't have

:09:07.:09:11.

the money. So when the IMF and the European Commission suggests

:09:11.:09:15.

another round of mass recapitalisations, who will pay for

:09:15.:09:19.

it? Where does the capital come from, from the private or public

:09:19.:09:22.

sector. The Germans will stand behind their banks. The French have

:09:22.:09:26.

said we are not sure we can stand behind our banks f someone else

:09:26.:09:30.

could help us out that would be great. If the French do it on their

:09:30.:09:37.

own they will lose their Triple A rating, if they lose that, the ESF

:09:37.:09:44.

can't gear up to 400 billion to 3 trillion. If you don't have the

:09:44.:09:52.

bailout fund, effectively zone as the ESFS, you can't put the money

:09:52.:09:56.

where the mouth is. In many ways the banks are the cause and the

:09:56.:10:00.

cure in this now the second financial crisis. In the boom times

:10:00.:10:03.

Governments borrowed from banks, gave the money to tax-payers, and

:10:03.:10:07.

they hoped would get re-elected. Now though, the banks want their

:10:07.:10:10.

money back and the Governments don't have the money. Perhaps if

:10:10.:10:15.

the banks consider writing off vast swathes of that debt, that would

:10:15.:10:19.

get the Governments off the hook. The only problem is that would

:10:19.:10:23.

collapse many of the banks. Is it fair that many countries are

:10:23.:10:28.

talking about Greece having a bright off, or haircut of 60% of

:10:28.:10:34.

its debts, when Portugal has to pay00% of their debts. I will give

:10:34.:10:39.

you a diplomatic answer, we are focused fully on our commitments,

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honour our word, and if we do it, we will do our job. I think this

:10:47.:10:52.

will be recognised by markets and international communities. What is

:10:52.:11:00.

the undiplomatic answer? Look, you have to wait. So, over the coming

:11:00.:11:05.

weeks, are eurozone politicians prepared to lengthen dole queues,

:11:05.:11:10.

strangle growth, and risk jobs to preserve a currency constructed in

:11:10.:11:15.

a different era by a different group of leaders.

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We are joined by our guests, John Micklethwait, and Julia Hodson, an

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MEP who used to run - Guy Verhofstadt, a an MEP who used to

:11:32.:11:38.

money Belgium. It is going to get worst isn't it? In my opinion the

:11:38.:11:42.

economic fall-out of this debt crisis in Europe is happening. It

:11:42.:11:46.

is not only affecting the eurozone, it is also affecting all the

:11:46.:11:51.

members of the European Union. If you look for an example to the

:11:51.:11:54.

figures, the fiscal deficit in Britain is higher than average in

:11:54.:11:57.

the eurozone. If you look to economic growth, economic growth is

:11:57.:12:03.

lower than the average in the eurozone. The same for the debt

:12:03.:12:08.

ratio is higher than Britain than in the eurozone. I don't think you

:12:08.:12:12.

can see that it is as a consequence of the euro, on the contrary. The

:12:12.:12:18.

problem with the euro is we need as fast as possible to build up an

:12:18.:12:22.

economic and fiscal union besides the monetary union. We understand

:12:22.:12:26.

where you are coming from quite clearly at the moment, we will come

:12:26.:12:29.

to the euro in a second. With the question of unemployment, it is

:12:29.:12:33.

going to get worse, a great deal worse? Yes it is, both in Britain

:12:33.:12:37.

and particularly in the European Union. Because whatever he says, at

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the moment other economies around the world, China, America, they are

:12:41.:12:44.

not actually worried about Britain, they are worried about the eurozone.

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Indeed the whole world economy is worried about the eurozone. Unless

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it actually begins to grow, and begins to actually deal with this

:12:51.:12:55.

debt crisis unemployment will continue to get worse. How much is

:12:55.:12:59.

actually in the hands of any individual Government, the British

:12:59.:13:03.

Government, for example, leaving aside the eurozone for a moment?

:13:03.:13:08.

The British Government is taking measures, and has taken measures to

:13:08.:13:12.

reduce the effect of regulation on business, stimulate the private

:13:12.:13:17.

sector. They are not having much effect, are they? We saw on the

:13:17.:13:21.

report a number of private sector jobs have been created over the

:13:21.:13:23.

last quarter, unfortunately it is not offsetting the number of jobs

:13:23.:13:28.

lost in the public sector. You told us the growth would, you told us

:13:28.:13:32.

losses in the public sector would be compensated by growth in the

:13:32.:13:35.

private sector, that is not the case? There have been half a

:13:35.:13:40.

million jobs created in the private sector in the last 12 months. I

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don't think we could have forecast the scale of the lack of growth,

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and the United States has growth worse than our's. All the export

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markets are under considerable pressure. There is clearly problem,

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you but I think the Government has some measures to influence it in a

:14:00.:14:04.

positive way f not solve the outright problem. If the eurozone

:14:04.:14:09.

is going to impact badly upon us, there is some argument, for us

:14:09.:14:12.

making a stub substantial generous contribution to the European

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stability fund? That is the argument, pay to play, I guess Guy

:14:17.:14:21.

Verhofstadt will come in hard on that. The British, in order to have

:14:21.:14:27.

a role in devising this new Europe, they will have to put in some money.

:14:27.:14:30.

One argument is some British people might see is that would give us a

:14:30.:14:33.

voice, and it would certainly provide a much more liberal

:14:33.:14:38.

direction to the way in which gruls Brussels is going. Against that I

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don't think - Brussels is going, against that I don't think the

:14:45.:14:48.

appreciation would be for us coming in. What do you think of the

:14:48.:14:52.

suggestion that the British should make some contribution, pay to

:14:52.:14:58.

play? I would say it is a very good idea! I don't think it is very

:14:58.:15:03.

realistic. Nevertheless, nevertheless, the reality is that

:15:03.:15:10.

Britain has a huge interest in a sound eurozone. It should think

:15:10.:15:15.

about helping to rescue the eurozone. But the way to rescue the

:15:15.:15:19.

eurozone is a question of creating, as I said already, of an economic

:15:19.:15:23.

and fiscal union. It is nonsense to have a single currency on the one

:15:23.:15:31.

side, and then seven different economic strategies and Governments,

:15:31.:15:38.

- 17 different strategies and economies and bond markets. We need

:15:38.:15:43.

more European integration to rescue this. Spoken like a loyal Belgian!

:15:43.:15:46.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, there will have to be more Europe than

:15:46.:15:51.

there is at the moment. I think everyone pretty much accepts that

:15:51.:15:55.

for the eurozone. There will have to be more. Yes, you will need some

:15:55.:15:59.

kind of bugetry supervision, somebody who will just check if the

:15:59.:16:03.

numbers are correct. And yes, you will probably need some eurozone

:16:03.:16:07.

bank regulation to make sure they cover the whole eurozone rather

:16:07.:16:10.

than just international stuff. Once you jump ahead to full fiscal union,

:16:11.:16:17.

you run into all sorts of problems, not just intellectual ones, but

:16:17.:16:21.

practical ones. You can't even persuade Slovakia to go along, even

:16:21.:16:26.

briefly, on what is a huge deal. What will they think about it in

:16:26.:16:30.

Stourbridge? I think the important thing is Britain won't be a part of

:16:30.:16:33.

this closer fiscal unit. We are fortunate in that we are not in the

:16:33.:16:38.

euro. We will not be a part of that. Nor will we be a part of the

:16:38.:16:44.

bailout. Because we would have to borrow, wouldn't we, in order to

:16:44.:16:48.

fund the weaknesses elsewhere. I think the flaw in the logic. I

:16:49.:16:52.

understand the economic theory of closer fiscal union, to support the

:16:52.:16:56.

single currency, the flaw is the democratic deficit in the argument.

:16:56.:17:04.

As John was saying, Slovakia won't agree. Any country which has to

:17:04.:17:07.

ratified the treaty from an electorate will find it very

:17:07.:17:10.

difficult to get approval. Presumably you believe in the old

:17:10.:17:15.

European practice to simply telling the Slovakians to go back and vote

:17:15.:17:19.

again? Sorry, I didn't understand the question. I suppose you think

:17:19.:17:22.

the Slovakians think they should have another vote until they come

:17:22.:17:28.

to a conclusion you like? No, I think that we need to change the

:17:28.:17:32.

rules in this European rescue fund. It is completely nonsense to

:17:32.:17:36.

continue with the rescue fund based on a unanimity rule, as it is the

:17:36.:17:42.

case today. Because that makes that one political party, in one of the

:17:42.:17:50.

17 European members can block a rescue operation fund. I think we

:17:50.:17:54.

need fight power in the rescue fund, if you want to rescue the euro.

:17:54.:17:59.

First of all, by abolishing the unanimity rule in the rescue fund.

:17:59.:18:02.

And secondly, also, this is very important, by increasing the money

:18:02.:18:07.

that you put in the rescue fun. much? Let's be very honest. I think

:18:07.:18:11.

we have to double at least, maybe to triple the money that is today

:18:11.:18:17.

in the rescue fund, if we want really to stablise the euro. And

:18:17.:18:22.

let me be say one thing as a conclusion, that is that it is the

:18:22.:18:25.

financial markets today, and the stock markets, they were asking for

:18:25.:18:31.

an economic and fiscal union, besides the monetary union. They

:18:31.:18:35.

say if you want the single currency, you need one economic policy.

:18:35.:18:40.

Very quickly from you two here. Barroso is talking today about 440

:18:40.:18:47.

billion, the talk is of 1.2 trillion being needed, what is your

:18:47.:18:52.

guess? My guess is 2 trillion. more? I think that sound like it

:18:52.:18:57.

would tilt the balance against some of the stronger markets losing

:18:57.:19:04.

their Triple A rating who will find this two trillion. We don't want to

:19:04.:19:10.

throw the relatively healthy economies' babies out of the water.

:19:11.:19:16.

You pitch it low, and you come in with an answer bigger than anyone

:19:16.:19:21.

expects, you restore confidence. needs to be close to a trillion.

:19:21.:19:24.

Biggest beasts of the media jungle were prodded out of their dens,

:19:24.:19:28.

they emerged blinking and bad tempered, to put Lord Levenson

:19:29.:19:38.

right on how the media works. The inquiry was set up when the phone

:19:38.:19:42.

hacking story broke by the Prime Minister, the same Prime Minister

:19:42.:19:47.

who put Andy Coulson at his press secretary.

:19:48.:19:53.

They were bothered by three big questions, firstly, do we need a

:19:53.:19:57.

new regulator for the press? Paul Dacre, editor-in-chief of the Daily

:19:58.:20:03.

Mail, didn't think so. I would like to try to persuade this inquiry

:20:03.:20:07.

that self-regulation, although a considerably beefed up form, is, in

:20:07.:20:10.

a country that regards itself as truly democratic, the only viable

:20:10.:20:14.

way of policing a genuinely free press.

:20:14.:20:20.

Secondly, how can one guarantee that free press? Dacre thinks

:20:20.:20:24.

commercial success is the only guarantor of freedom. I would argue

:20:24.:20:28.

that Britain's commercially viable free press, because it is in hock

:20:28.:20:35.

to nobody, is the only real free media in this country. Overregulate

:20:35.:20:40.

that press and you put democracy itself in peril. Finally the

:20:40.:20:43.

question of whether the Leveson inquiry was necessary at all. The

:20:43.:20:48.

former editor of the Sun knocked that on the head. Why do we need an

:20:48.:20:51.

inquiry of this kind? There are plenty of laws to cover what went

:20:52.:20:55.

on. Afterall, 16 people have already been arrested, and my bet

:20:55.:21:01.

is, the numbers may well go up to as many as 30, once the police

:21:01.:21:05.

officers start being rounded up on the corruption allegations.

:21:05.:21:11.

people who are quite familiar with coverage in the Daily Mail are here.

:21:11.:21:15.

The last time Steve Coogan was on the programme, there was a most

:21:15.:21:19.

disparaging piece about him in the Daily Mail a few days after.

:21:19.:21:27.

And Louise Mensch MP, has also featured in that paper on topics

:21:27.:21:31.

such as if she has had plastic surgery and her marriage. Let's

:21:31.:21:36.

take the first question, self- regulation, does it, as was argued

:21:36.:21:40.

by Paul Dacre today work? Manifestly it doesn't work in the

:21:40.:21:44.

form we currently have. It was ludicrous of Mr Dacre to suggest at

:21:44.:21:49.

some length there was no problem there whatsoever. We have to have

:21:49.:21:55.

it massively beefed up and changed. It is entirely facile to say it is

:21:55.:21:59.

all working great. Government regulation or self-regulation?

:21:59.:22:06.

think you must have a free press, but some Government regulation.

:22:06.:22:09.

papably failed in the biggest single test of its existing in the

:22:09.:22:15.

last 12 years with the hacking scandal, it did nothing, the only

:22:15.:22:20.

way it came to the fore, was the tenacity of certain celebrities and

:22:20.:22:25.

the Guardian newspaper who pursued it. And fellow Eurotunnel

:22:25.:22:30.

journalists operating under self- regulation? Those journalists are

:22:30.:22:33.

to be applauded, I don't have a problem with them, it is those who

:22:33.:22:39.

do the muck raking I don't like. you favour the second question that

:22:39.:22:43.

came up, what is the guarantee of the free press, Paul Dacre arked,

:22:43.:22:48.

plausibly, that the best guarantee of a free press is a commercially

:22:48.:22:51.

liable press? A commissionly viable press a free press, led by the

:22:51.:22:55.

market, has led to the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone and the

:22:55.:23:04.

hacking of victims of crimes phones. You also get the Mail being free to

:23:04.:23:08.

name the alleged murders of Stephen Lawrence? That is the one example

:23:08.:23:14.

people use. Wasn't it a brave, good thing to do? It is notable by its

:23:14.:23:19.

singularity. It is the one case that breaks the rule. All the Mail

:23:19.:23:22.

are interested in, are its commercial interest. It is selling

:23:22.:23:29.

newspapers, everything is based on who is shagging who. It is not

:23:29.:23:32.

about trying to expose corruption. That is, as he explained today, was

:23:32.:23:36.

a way of selling newspapers, it helped to sell newspapers and

:23:36.:23:40.

carried the cost of the other stuff. That is not why this occurred, it

:23:40.:23:44.

occurred because victims of crime have been hacked, and self-

:23:44.:23:49.

regulation hasn't worked. It has come about because of the

:23:49.:23:53.

abhoration. People broke the law? It was nothing to do with the Press

:23:53.:23:59.

Complaints Commission that exposed that. You have been a victim of I

:23:59.:24:04.

won't ask you whether you have had plastic surgery or Botox or what

:24:04.:24:10.

you have been accused of. It can be hurtful? It can be, but we are

:24:10.:24:14.

drawing a distinction between the pure tabloid press and the other

:24:14.:24:21.

press. It was the Guardian asking me in an interview ostensibly about

:24:21.:24:25.

my politics if I had a face lift and it was the strap line. That was

:24:25.:24:34.

put there because it is fluff that sells papers. If we want the

:24:34.:24:40.

Telegraph stories, you have to take it, because it gives you a chance

:24:40.:24:45.

to put out what you think. You have to roll with the pitches?

:24:45.:24:52.

depends on the degree. I think whether or not it invades prif vi,

:24:52.:24:56.

I think they are unwitting stoodges of Paul Dacre and the Guardian

:24:56.:25:02.

newspaper. I think the Guardian has to be ashamed, because the face

:25:02.:25:06.

lift piece on conference is not talking about the policies from the

:25:06.:25:10.

conference. That comes from the Guardian and they need to be

:25:10.:25:15.

ashamed. I can talk about Corby being the fastest growing town at

:25:15.:25:18.

the moment, but that won't sell papers, they are interested in

:25:18.:25:22.

fluff. The circulation in all papers plummeting and we have to

:25:22.:25:28.

have one that works. If newspapers exist to basically make money, and

:25:28.:25:32.

the by-product is they occasionally do things laudible and publicly,

:25:32.:25:36.

they make most of their profit from searching through people's rubbish

:25:36.:25:40.

bins, then they deserve to go to the wall. Why does it hurt you?

:25:40.:25:45.

is not about hurting. I'm not here for me, I'm here because of other

:25:45.:25:49.

people, the not famous people, people who are defenceless, who

:25:49.:25:55.

can't afford to go to the courts to defend themselves. The tabloid

:25:55.:25:59.

journalist a few years ago said we ruin people's lives, that is what

:26:00.:26:03.

we do. That is a rare moment of candour from one of the tabloid

:26:03.:26:07.

newspapers. As far as you are concerned they can say what they

:26:07.:26:11.

like about you, you are acting on behalf of others? It has to be in

:26:11.:26:14.

the public interest. If I was someone, I don't think we should

:26:14.:26:17.

roll with the punches, certain questions are legitimate, some

:26:17.:26:21.

aren't. If I went around as a politician and said I was a par

:26:22.:26:27.

gone of virtue and extolling family values, then my personal life would

:26:27.:26:31.

be legitimate because I'm trading on it. I work in comedy, if it is

:26:31.:26:35.

crap, say so, but my personal life has nothing to do with it. Would

:26:35.:26:39.

Paul Dacre like if I looked in his bin or asked him what he got up to

:26:39.:26:48.

in bin, it is none of his business. I think he's being disengenius Paul

:26:48.:26:52.

Dacre, there were 1300 tran actions in his paper, he said people should

:26:52.:26:56.

be free to et ex-directory phone numbers, it was shown by the

:26:56.:26:59.

Independent that part of the blagging example was going after

:26:59.:27:03.

the parents of the Dunblane children, and finding their ex-

:27:03.:27:06.

directory phone numbers through blagging. That can't be justified.

:27:06.:27:11.

We mustn't throw the baby out with the bath water f we make newspaper

:27:11.:27:15.

reports only on good and worthy things, the sad fact of the matter

:27:15.:27:20.

is people won't buy the newspapers. People by the Guardian and the

:27:20.:27:26.

broadsheets. They are not making any money? If the tabloids can only

:27:26.:27:31.

exist by reporting that kind of garbage, that is not a good enough

:27:31.:27:36.

reason for them to exist. You would rather a free press disappear?

:27:36.:27:39.

there are plenty of free newspaper that is don't indulge in that kind

:27:39.:27:45.

of thing that report the news. Times is down 14% year-on-year

:27:45.:27:48.

circulation. You are saying what we have to do is let them basically

:27:48.:27:51.

intrude into people's personal lives. They will have to become

:27:51.:27:56.

more inventive and more creative or be more entertaining. I manage to

:27:56.:27:59.

entertain people without searching through rubbish bins, I don't have

:27:59.:28:03.

to do that. They have to stop the hacking and blagging, people won't

:28:04.:28:08.

put up with it more, and the public understand how they get the stories,

:28:08.:28:12.

but the Mail fluffy kitten stories won't go away, that is the price

:28:12.:28:17.

public figures have to put up with if we want a free press to expose

:28:17.:28:23.

it. If we want the MPs expenses story. The Mail is a newspaper, we

:28:23.:28:29.

choose as the newspaper to be Alan Partridge's favourite paper,

:28:29.:28:35.

because it has contempt for the weak, and zenophobic attitude, and

:28:35.:28:39.

a little England that people drink warm beer and all the corner shops

:28:39.:28:42.

are run by white people. That is not reality, I don't think someone

:28:42.:28:47.

who presents and trades on people's worst fears, as that newspaper does,

:28:47.:28:52.

it panneders to people's worst fears, I don't believe it deserves

:28:52.:28:56.

to exist. If it went to the wall I would be delighted there are lots

:28:56.:29:00.

of better newspapers. It is worse than the tabloids. I have great

:29:00.:29:04.

sympathy with you on the Mail, if not the Daily Mail who? We need

:29:04.:29:10.

somebody out there to sell the papers. The Mail has a certain

:29:10.:29:14.

duplicity to its nature. amusingly said it was half way

:29:15.:29:18.

between a broadsheet and tabloid. will be interested to see what they

:29:18.:29:25.

write about you. If they do I will be pleased. The MP for north

:29:25.:29:28.

Somerset is still our Defence Secretary tonight. Liam Fox has had

:29:28.:29:34.

to cancel a few engagements so he doesn't spend his time answering a

:29:34.:29:41.

question about a man who he says is above reproach of any kind. A trip

:29:41.:29:44.

to Paris today was punctuated by sniping from reporters,

:29:44.:29:47.

demonstrating how few people share his belief that there is nothing to

:29:47.:29:52.

discuss. The questions swirling around

:29:52.:29:56.

Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, and his close friend, Adam Werritty,

:29:56.:30:01.

are around the issue of money. We now know Mr Werritty met Dr Fox on

:30:01.:30:06.

visits abroad on 18 occasions in the past 17 months. Was there any

:30:06.:30:11.

financial gain? How did he pay for his travel expenses? Was he

:30:11.:30:14.

advising clients keen to get access to the minister. REPORTER: In what

:30:14.:30:18.

capacity did he travel with you, unofficial advisor, friend?

:30:18.:30:23.

Dr Fox was in Paris today, keen to deflect the questions. Perhaps the

:30:23.:30:28.

biggest mystery is who funded Adam Werritty and why? The attention is

:30:28.:30:33.

turning to rich donors funding a charity called Atlantic Bridge,

:30:33.:30:38.

which champion the political philosophy of Margaret Thatcher and

:30:38.:30:42.

Ronald Reagan. It was linked to Liam Fox and run by Adam Werritty.

:30:42.:30:46.

This hedge fund manager has reportedly donated thousands of

:30:46.:30:50.

pounds. Was this money, and perhaps other donations effectively paying

:30:50.:30:55.

Mr Werritty. Antic Bridge was removed as a registered charity -

:30:55.:30:59.

Atlantic Bridge was removed as a registered charity a few months ago,

:30:59.:31:02.

because it was said to be promoting a political party close to the

:31:02.:31:05.

Conservatives. Government has to have rules. The taxpayer funds the

:31:05.:31:11.

operation of Government. To have a parallel operation, off the books,

:31:11.:31:18.

privately funded, undid he claird, no transparency - undeclared, and

:31:18.:31:25.

no transparency is worrying. What was Mr Fox's with Sri Lanka, and

:31:25.:31:30.

what were Mr Werritty's aims? Fox had a long standing

:31:30.:31:35.

relationship with Sri Lanka, and his ideas were known as the Fox

:31:35.:31:39.

plan. Last year Adam Werritty and Dr Fox met with the Sri Lankan

:31:39.:31:43.

President in a London hotel. No British officials were present.

:31:43.:31:47.

had a meeting with the President of the Sri Lanka at the same time. I'm

:31:47.:31:52.

well aware of the nature of the meetings. It is in a swith, it is

:31:52.:31:58.

set out - suite, it is set out as if it was in the Sri Lankan

:31:58.:32:02.

Presidential Palace. A substantial number of officials from Sri Lanka.

:32:02.:32:06.

The President of Sri Lanka was not having private meetings. These were

:32:06.:32:10.

very public meetings, I suspect they are recorded on camera. It is

:32:10.:32:14.

Mr Werritty's business interests that could determine the fate of

:32:14.:32:19.

Liam Fox. We know, for example, he has good relations with the

:32:19.:32:24.

Government of Sri Lanka. If it turns out the Sri Lankans are his

:32:24.:32:30.

client and have paid him for lobbying work that could be very

:32:30.:32:33.

serious indeed. If there is money involved will

:32:33.:32:36.

that change things? It is a hypothetical question. In all these

:32:36.:32:40.

things you have to look at the context in which something may or

:32:40.:32:43.

may not happen. To take a particular emphasis on a particular

:32:43.:32:46.

point in a particular way, I think, is a question I'm not able to

:32:46.:32:53.

answer at the moment. Has Liam Fox breached the

:32:53.:32:59.

Ministerial Code? REPORTER: Are you the victim of a witch-hunt?

:32:59.:33:03.

He returned from Paris and will face questions about the spirit and

:33:03.:33:07.

limit of the code. In the section on advisors, it says the

:33:07.:33:11.

Governments will publish every year the names of special advisors and

:33:11.:33:17.

their pay bill. But when is an advisor a formal advisor and when

:33:17.:33:21.

is he just a friend. He muddied his private and public interests in way

:33:21.:33:25.

that was unacceptable. I suspect the biggest charge against him in

:33:25.:33:29.

the end is just massive misjudgment in the way that he has handled his

:33:29.:33:35.

affairs. I think there are errors and misjudgments have been made.

:33:35.:33:41.

But they are not that serious that Liam should have to resign. I

:33:42.:33:45.

actually think has done, not just a good job in the Ministry of Defence,

:33:45.:33:49.

but he has gone over and above the call of duty here. When he came in

:33:49.:33:56.

the budget of that department was a mess, but the huge number of vests

:33:57.:34:02.

interest were there. He has made sense of the Ministry of Defence,

:34:02.:34:07.

he's a tough guy and the right guy to be doing it. Critics believe he

:34:07.:34:10.

has breached the spirit of the ministerial guideline, the latest

:34:10.:34:13.

version of which was endorsed by the Prime Minister only last year.

:34:13.:34:17.

David Cameron wrote then we must be transparent about what we do, above

:34:18.:34:23.

improper influence. That, then, is a benchmark for Liam Fox and Adam

:34:23.:34:29.

Werritty, his mysterious advisor. Could religious bigotry determine

:34:29.:34:34.

the outcome of the next American presidential elections. Front

:34:34.:34:37.

runner to knock Barack Obama out of the White House next year is Mitt

:34:37.:34:43.

Romney, one-time guff nor of Massachusetts. It is not that, or

:34:43.:34:49.

his - guff nor of Massachusetts. It is not that or his chis selled chin

:34:49.:34:54.

that is causing problems, it is because he's a Mormon. Part of the

:34:54.:34:58.

United States thinks being a Mormon is a cult. We will hear from the

:34:58.:35:08.
:35:08.:35:14.

Pastor who makes the accusation. First this report. Out of the

:35:14.:35:19.

mountains they came, searching for Zion, and in the shadow of the

:35:19.:35:29.
:35:29.:35:29.

mountains of Utah, the Mormon found it. The church of the Latter Day

:35:30.:35:37.

Saintss prospered, building a city near the great Salt Lake.

:35:37.:35:44.

# I've got hope like a river And here, in Salt Lake City, the

:35:44.:35:50.

church grew rich. But it was always different, other, separate some how,

:35:50.:35:55.

from the country it inhabited. Now one of its own is bidding for the

:35:55.:36:01.

presidency. But that otherness may yet drag his cadidacy down.

:36:01.:36:06.

Mormon is a paradox, both very American, and yet well beyond the

:36:06.:36:12.

American mainstream. Take the Great Trek, depicted partly here.

:36:12.:36:17.

Believers 1300 miles, often in scenes of unimaginable hardship

:36:17.:36:22.

from Illinois to Salt Lake City, in the mid-19th century, to go west,

:36:22.:36:27.

to settle in the frontier, to flee religious persecution, what could

:36:27.:36:32.

be a more American story. But to establish a theocracy that

:36:32.:36:39.

flourished here briefly, and to practice polygamy, abandoned in

:36:39.:36:45.

short order, that brought suspicion from fellow Americans. For Mitt

:36:45.:36:49.

Romney that fear and suspicion became part of his downfall when he

:36:49.:36:53.

ran for the nomination five years ago. He found himself continuously

:36:53.:36:57.

being asked about his faith. He tried to tackle the questions head

:36:57.:37:00.

on. There is one fundamental question about which I'm often

:37:00.:37:05.

asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus

:37:05.:37:09.

Christ is the Son of God, and the saviour of mankind. Two months

:37:09.:37:16.

later he dropped out of the race. Now, four years on, he is the

:37:16.:37:20.

Republican candidate that Democrats most fear. A politician of the

:37:20.:37:25.

centre right who can reach out to disaffected independents and swing

:37:25.:37:29.

voters. I believe in America, and I'm running for President of the

:37:29.:37:36.

United States. But, again, it has become personal. Last weekend

:37:36.:37:41.

Baptist Pastor, Robert Jeffress, advised a gathering of social

:37:41.:37:45.

conservatives, not to vote for Romney, because in his words, he's

:37:45.:37:50.

not Christian. I would call on governor Perry to repudiate the

:37:50.:37:56.

sentiments and remarks made by that Pastor. Family friend, Jowers,

:37:56.:38:00.

believes the issue has waned in the public consciousness, and second

:38:00.:38:06.

time round Romney is a more rounded figure than the Mormon candidate of

:38:06.:38:10.

2008. As long as people recognise him as the turn around guy for the

:38:10.:38:14.

Olympics, as guff nor and his businesses, and so many other

:38:14.:38:19.

aspects of him. Mormonism is every bit a part of him. I don't think he

:38:19.:38:23.

will ever shy away from that. is a book out now that describes

:38:23.:38:26.

Romney as springing from an historically racist religion, that

:38:26.:38:33.

kind of stuff will keep coming. Yeah, certainly there is, Mormonism

:38:33.:38:36.

is a place where some people will find political advantage, and they

:38:36.:38:44.

will mit it. Would it be easier if he wasn't a Mormon? At this point

:38:44.:38:48.

probably, yes. On the other hand, who knows where he would be without

:38:48.:38:58.
:38:58.:38:58.

his Mormon faith. On a warm Saturday evening in Utah,

:38:58.:39:05.

two local universities go head-to- head. The game is a 65,000-seat

:39:05.:39:10.

sell-out. The faithful are out in force. The sacred name of Jesus

:39:10.:39:15.

Christ, amen. Brigham Young University, in blue,

:39:15.:39:21.

are playing at home, they remain outsiders. The university was

:39:21.:39:26.

established by and for Mormons. Is there a change in America in its

:39:26.:39:30.

attitude towards Mormons, towards the Mormon religion? I think the

:39:30.:39:34.

Mormon religion is getting more well known, people know more about

:39:34.:39:38.

the church. As far as being mainstream, I think people still

:39:38.:39:41.

consider us different, and not Christian. But I think they

:39:41.:39:44.

appreciate our values and appreciate what we do for the

:39:44.:39:48.

country. If Romney becomes the candidate, even the President, does

:39:48.:39:53.

that change things forever, for Mormonism? You know I don't know if

:39:53.:39:56.

it is going to change things forever, people will still have

:39:56.:40:00.

their perceptions, they may think Romney is weird, if they think we

:40:00.:40:08.

are weird. It will be, in the south, that

:40:08.:40:14.

Romney's faith could face an early challenge. South Carolina holds the

:40:14.:40:19.

nation's second primary. This Bible Belt state has proved Romney's

:40:19.:40:22.

undoing before. One in four Americans say they are less likely

:40:22.:40:27.

to vote for a Mormon, amongst white evangelicals, that rises to one in

:40:27.:40:32.

three. A good showing here is critical for

:40:32.:40:35.

Mitt Romney, as a northern candidate, Romney needs to show

:40:36.:40:40.

that he can do well, here in the south. But South Carolina is

:40:40.:40:44.

particularly dangerous territory for Romney. It was here in 2008

:40:44.:40:51.

that he was uncertificate moanously crushed. It is - uncermoniously

:40:51.:40:55.

crushed. It is home to the dark arts of political campaigning, and

:40:55.:41:00.

home to an evangelical Christian comuep community with little time

:41:00.:41:06.

for Mormons. Professor Mark Tompkins understands voting in the

:41:06.:41:13.

Bible Belt, and how some Baptists view the Mormon faith. Do they see

:41:13.:41:19.

it as heresy? Cult is the word that they use more often. It conjures up

:41:19.:41:23.

the ideas of the cult leaders telling everybody else what to do,

:41:23.:41:28.

they are making these unusual demands on people in the name of

:41:28.:41:34.

faith. And the Mormon faith doesn't sound inconsistent with that story

:41:34.:41:42.

at first blush. The wife of Texas governor, Rick Perry, Romney's only

:41:42.:41:46.

real rival for the nomination comes to town to open a campaign office.

:41:46.:41:50.

Mitt Romney's political opponents have enough policy differences with

:41:50.:41:54.

him to ignore the religious question. But a representative from

:41:54.:41:58.

up state, where the evangelical community is concentrated,

:41:58.:42:03.

acknowledges the potential problem. I look at a person's record, and

:42:03.:42:07.

governor Perry has simply got an outstanding record in the state of

:42:08.:42:11.

Texas. For people faith is important? Absolutely it is. In

:42:11.:42:14.

some areas. There are two things that people in South Carolina

:42:15.:42:21.

learned a long time ago, if you are at a dinner protect, don't discuss

:42:21.:42:31.
:42:31.:42:33.

two subjects, religion and politics. # Till me meet

:42:33.:42:38.

The Mormon journey has been a long one. Once outcast, feared and

:42:38.:42:42.

derided for their beliefs and customs, they have risen to the top

:42:42.:42:45.

of American business and politics. Now, one of their number is

:42:45.:42:50.

reaching for the highest summit of all, his faith may well be his

:42:50.:42:56.

undoing, but if he succeeds, another taboo will have fallen, and

:42:56.:43:02.

an era of suspicion and ignorance will have come to a close. A short

:43:02.:43:07.

while ago I spoke to Pastor Robert Jeffress from Dallas. I asked him

:43:07.:43:12.

what his problem was with Mormonism? Mormonism has never been

:43:12.:43:16.

considered a part of mainstream Christianity, it is not a problem

:43:16.:43:21.

to Mormons, the only problem is he's trying to confuse it with

:43:21.:43:24.

Christianity. Mormonism came 1800 years after Jesus Christ and the

:43:24.:43:29.

church was established. It has its own human founder, Joseph Smith, it

:43:29.:43:34.

has its own set of doctrines and book of revelation, The Book of

:43:34.:43:38.

Mormon. When I tacked about Mormonism being a cult, I was

:43:38.:43:43.

talking about a theological cult. Those attributes I mentioned

:43:43.:43:46.

qualify it as a theological cult. I think Mormons are good people and

:43:46.:43:53.

moral people, but Mormonism is not Christianity. What do you fear if a

:43:53.:43:58.

Mormon got the presidency? I don't fear anything if a Mormon got the

:43:58.:44:04.

presidency. The fact is, I have said that if the Republican

:44:05.:44:08.

candidate end up being Mitt Romney, I probably would vote for him over

:44:08.:44:12.

Barack Obama. But when I talked to the values voters summit in

:44:12.:44:17.

Washington, and I introduced Governor Rick Perry, I was speaking

:44:17.:44:21.

to evangelical Christians, Jeremy, and I said given the choice between

:44:21.:44:25.

a competent Christian, and a competent non-Christian, Christians

:44:25.:44:29.

often to prefer a competent Christian. And Mitt Romney is not a

:44:29.:44:34.

Christian, although he says he believes in Jesus Christ? Well, I

:44:34.:44:39.

mean lots of people believe in Jesus Christ, it is what you

:44:39.:44:42.

believe about Jesus Christ that determines whether or not you are

:44:42.:44:45.

going to heaven or hell when you die. The Bible says whoever calls

:44:45.:44:48.

upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Jeremy, I don't think

:44:49.:44:53.

anybody goes to heaven or hell in a group. We all go individual lie,

:44:53.:45:00.

based on what have decided to do with Jesus Christ as our saviour. I

:45:00.:45:05.

was saying if Romney is a Mormon and embraces the Mormon faith, that

:45:05.:45:09.

is not Christianity. What is interesting is Mormons have said

:45:09.:45:13.

all along that they were not a part of historic Christianity. They say

:45:13.:45:17.

that the Christian church was corrupt from the time of the

:45:17.:45:23.

apostles, until 1829 when Joseph Smith came, they have never

:45:23.:45:26.

embraced historical Christianity by their own admission. What will

:45:26.:45:35.

happen to Mr Romney when he dies? have no idea. If he has trusted in

:45:35.:45:38.

Jesus Christ, the Jesus Christ of the Bible to save him from his sins,

:45:38.:45:44.

he will be in heaven. If he has trusted some other God or no God,

:45:44.:45:48.

he will spend ecertainty separated from God, like all of us will. The

:45:48.:45:54.

Bible says all of us are sinners, not just Mormons, Catholics,

:45:55.:45:58.

Baptists, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,

:45:58.:46:04.

we all need Jesus Christ to be our saviour. Can you ever imagine

:46:04.:46:08.

America tolerating an atheist President? Absolutely I can. I

:46:08.:46:15.

think that's very possible. A Jew? Absolutely. A Muslim? I think that

:46:15.:46:22.

could. A Muslim? Yes. All of these things are possible? Absolutely.

:46:22.:46:26.

Because the article 6 of our constitution says there shall be no

:46:26.:46:29.

religious test to hold public office. But I'm quick to remind

:46:29.:46:35.

viewers across the pond here, that refers to Government cannot impose

:46:35.:46:39.

a religious litmus test. It has nothing to say about private

:46:39.:46:42.

citizens deciding to choose a candidate based on their religion.

:46:43.:46:48.

We have every right to do so. In fact, the first Chief Justice of

:46:48.:46:53.

our Supreme Court, John Jay, also the author of the Federalist Papers,

:46:53.:46:57.

said, "we have the duty and the privilege in this Christian nation

:46:57.:47:03.

to select and prefer Christians as our leaders". So the first Chief

:47:03.:47:06.

Justice of the United States believed that it was not bigotted

:47:06.:47:10.

to say it is right to prefer Christians over non-Christians.

:47:10.:47:14.

Mr Jeffress thank you for joining us, thank you.

:47:14.:47:18.

It's good to be with you, Jeremy. Well that's quite enough for one

:47:18.:47:25.

day. I will give the editor of the day his nightly glass of milk, he's

:47:25.:47:31.

confused, not as confused as Phoenix Jones, he used pepper spray

:47:31.:47:40.

to try to break up what he thought was a street fight, but the police

:47:40.:47:50.
:47:50.:48:17.

say it was dancing. Look huge fight. We still have a residue of cold air

:48:17.:48:21.

in Scotland and north-east England, chilly here first thing in the

:48:21.:48:24.

morning, milder elsewhere underneath the cloud. For most of

:48:24.:48:29.

us a cold start. The cloud lifting and thinning any rain petering out.

:48:29.:48:33.

Some will see sunshine, predicting where, that is the trick. It looks

:48:33.:48:36.

cloudy across northern England but dryer in the afternoon. Not as

:48:36.:48:39.

chilly as today. Brightening up throughout the afternoon, across

:48:39.:48:42.

East Anglia, not through the Midland or the south-east of

:48:42.:48:44.

England, but through the West Country that could be a favoured

:48:44.:48:48.

spot to see sunshine in the afternoon. For most of the day

:48:48.:48:52.

Devon and Cornwall could be cloudy, drizzle up for a while over the

:48:52.:48:55.

moors. For Wales the north coast and the marshes could see sunshine

:48:55.:48:58.

during the afternoon. It should be dry as well, it has been a much

:48:58.:49:03.

better day in Northern Ireland. Again it should be dry tomorrow,

:49:03.:49:08.

sunshine near the north coast. Sunny spells around the Moray Frith,

:49:08.:49:11.

and Aberdeenshire, it might brighten up in the central belt.

:49:11.:49:15.

Not as cold as it has been. Temperatures rising over the next

:49:15.:49:20.

few days to 17 degrees in Edinburgh. Further south, we will see a lot of

:49:20.:49:23.

cloud on Thursday, not much sunshine, better chance of seeing

:49:23.:49:28.

sunshine I think on Friday, as the cloud begins to break up as we

:49:28.:49:32.

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