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This programme contains scenes some viewers might find disturbing. | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
TRANSLATION: I announce to the world that Muammar Gaddafi has been | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
killed, at the hands of the revolutionaries. | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
He called himself king and kings, look on his works, you mighty and | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
despair. A turning point for Libya, North Africa and the Middle East. | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
They may be celebrating the end of the Gaddafi era, but can the new | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
Libya hold together and flourish as a democracy. We will hear from | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
Senator John McCain, the British Government and the new Libyan | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
Government. We will debate the future and the | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
lessons for dealing with dictators. Plus, Gaddafi, the power of the | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
image, we explore the iconography of dictatorship. A major | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
development in the story we broke last night b a police officer who | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
remained undercover even in court. Now an independent investigation is | :00:56. | :01:06. | |
:01:06. | :01:07. | ||
Good evening, just a few years ago Muammar Gaddafi seemed on top of | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
the world, he had rebuild relationships with the United | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
States, Britain and others, by appearing to co-operate on the war | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
on terror. Buoyant oil prices kept the Libyan economy afloat, and at a | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
gathering of Afghan leaders he was crowned King of Kings. With the | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
Gaddafi era over, the fraction tribunal society he ruled for 42 | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
years - fractious tribal society he ruled for 42 years coming to terms | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
with the new way of things. We begin tonight with our diplomatic | :01:39. | :01:49. | |
:01:49. | :01:50. | ||
editor. This evening, people flocked to | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
what was once Green Square in Tripoli, to celebrate the death of | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
a hated dictator. We got you, we got you dead or | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
:02:11. | :02:11. | ||
alive we got you. Libya now is free. Freedom Libya, everybody happy now. | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
The Gaddafi clan cast a long shadow over this nation. Their influence | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
had been embedded over more than 40 years. Now the NTC, the National | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
Transitional Council, can move ahead confidently, with a blueprint | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
for transition to democracy. Until today, the threat of a Gaddafi | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
uprising against the new realities was still real. Now leaders across | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
the Arab world are being told to take note of his undignified end. | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
For the region today's events proved once more that the rule of | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
an iron fist inevitably comes to an end. Across the Arab world, | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
citizens have stood up to claim their rights. Youth are delivering | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
a powerful rebuke to dictatorship. Those leaders who try to deny their | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
dignity will not succeed. At about 8.00am, Libyan time, the forces | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
besieging Sirte began their final assault on District 2, the coastal | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
enclave still held by Gaddafi loyalists. NATO aircraft detected a | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
group of vehicles forming up, a fighter womaner was directed on to | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
the - bomber was directed on to the convoy as it headed off, hitting | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
the vehicles. The transport scattered, and NATO launched a | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
second strike a little while later. Four or five cars in the morning we | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
shot in this side. Gaddafi seems to have survived that | :03:41. | :03:49. | |
air strike, hiding himself in a concrete culvert into the road. All | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
around him gun battles were raging, as the revolutionary forces | :03:54. | :04:02. | |
completed their capture of District 2. At 11.00am, reports began to | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
circulate that Sirte had, indeed, fallen. The last remaining Gaddafi | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
fighters had either given up or been killed. The NTC announced that | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
the former leader's son had been taken, and then, just after 12.00pm, | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
these extraordinary images were recorded, showing Muammar Gaddafi, | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
bloodied, near the culvert where he had taken refuge, and it seems he | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
was still alive. Libya's new Government said he was wounded and | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
on his way to Misrata in an ambulance. But soon other Libyan | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
officials were briefing that the dictator had died. Then these | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
graphic pictures of Gaddafi, apparently dead, came out. Finally, | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
at 4.22, the news from Libya's Prime Minister, confirming the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
former dictator's death. When we confirm all the evils, plus Gaddafi | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
have now vanished from this beloved country, I think it is for the | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
Libyans to realise that this is a time to start a new Libya w a new | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
economy, with a comu education, with a new health - with a new | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
education, with a new health system, with a new future, united Libya, | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
one people, one future. This photo and reports from the hospital | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
tonight suggest that Gaddafi may have been finished off with a shot | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
to the head after his capture. The NTC is talking about investigating | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
it. His son was also taken alive earlier today, and shown in morgue | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
pictures, dead this evening. Fears have been expressed for | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
months about warlordism or lawlessness gaining ground. All | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
this leads the revolution's foreign backers to give polite but firm | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
guidance about what they expect to happen next. | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
There is work to be done on stablising Libya, on bringing | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
together all the militia that have fought in the revolution under the | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
single control of the transitional Government. That is the phase that | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
will now begin, I think, very soon the formation of that transitional | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
Government. Once the liberation of Libya is declared, and these events | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
bring that much closer, then there is 30 days to form a transitional | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
Government, eight months to have elections. | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
As celebrations continue, NATO suggest the air operation may | :06:37. | :06:45. | |
finish within hours. Their campaign has been instrumental in the NTC's | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
success, overthrowing and eliminating Gaddafi. Now they will | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
be watching in the hope that victory isn't skwaundered. Is it | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
over? - squadered? Is it over? To all intents and purposes there is | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
one or two place where the Gaddafi forces are said to be. It does | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
appear this last holdout in Sirte is the place where pretty much all | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
the key Gaddafi loyalists went after the fall of Tripoli. This is | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
why there has been intense fighting over the last three weeks. We know | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
the former Defence Minster was also killed today, that Moussa Ibrahim, | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
the spokesman who we saw a lot of during the former parts of the | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
crisis, was said to have been taken alive. It is thought that Saif | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
Gaddafi, the senior son, was also killed today. We are not clear | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
about that. But this pattern of them killed or captured and killed | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
does seem to be what's happening. There is a rumour one or two | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
vehicles got away, it is possible one or two key people got away, but | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
this should be it now. Do you get a sense of what kind of Libya the | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
Libyan people want or will settle for? They want democracy that is | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
the refrain heard again and again, and apparently seems to unite | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
people from the educations technocrats, to the militia | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
commander in Tripoli, who has a past on the extremist Islamist wing | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
of politics and direct action. The interesting thing is how can these | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
aspirations be woven together. Will the technocrats who formed the | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
bedrock of the NTC, the lawyers and doctors, often people with a really | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
good knowledge, from foreign education, of how democracy looks, | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
what it looks like and smells like, how will they be woven together | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
with the tribal leaders, will political forces emerge, parties or | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
other mechanisms for binding together these different types of | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Libyan people and their aspirations. However talented Libyans are, they | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
are talented in all places all across the world, there isn't | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
really a political class? There isn't, and the problem s of course, | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
in many ways the 42 years of Gaddafi atomised society, | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
eliminated or drove abroad, people who showed real initiative and | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
political spark. The question now, I think, really, is whether the | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
technocratic element, they are vital and central to the NTC, will | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
they be just moved aside as the tribal and other more traditional | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
social leaders, Islamist leaders, really bring the vote out, or will | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
they continue to take a role and bring a more westernised flavour to | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
the democracy planned there. Joining us from Washington is the | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
former Republican presidential candidate, Senator John McCain. We | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
saw Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, say "wow" when she heard | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
the news, what did you say when you heard the news? I thought this is a | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
beautiful day for democracy and a chance for freedom. Obviously the | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
hard part is ahead, building democracy and all the institutions | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
that go with it. The country, as it was just pointed out by your | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
previous person that said that the institutions of democracy are | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
difficult, it is a tribal society in many respects, and we have a | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
long way to go. Could I just say, I'm grateful to the British | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Government and people and the French for leading in this fight, | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
with NATO. They were instrumental in bringing about this victory, and | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
they deserve great credit, I'm grateful. Are you happy at the | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
manner of his death? There are those who wanted him to stand trial | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
t does appear he was alive when he was captured and something happened, | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
we don't know what? Of course I'm not happy about that. I would have | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
liked to have seen him in the dock in the Hague we International | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
Criminal Court. But still, I think it is a good thing that he is now | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
removed from the scene. He has the blood of Americans and British on | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
his hands as well as his brutality towards the Libyan people. Coy just | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
say, the first thing I think - could I just say, the first thing I | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
think we need to do for the Libyans is what the British Government and | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
now the American Government is pledging to do, is care for the | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
wounded. They have some 30,000 wounded, they do not have the | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
capabilities to care for them. I would like to see American planes | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
taking the wounded to the hospital in Germany. I would like to see an | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
American hospital ship in Tripoli in the harbour there. I think we | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
need to really help them with areas of the wounded that they have no | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
capability. I think secondly, we have to try, as your previous | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
speaker mentioned, that we really need to get these militias under | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
one army, National Army, under the TNC. This is a very, very big | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
challenge. We have to do that as quickly as possible. Finally now we | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
have to help them with the building blocks of democracy this is a | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
country that has never known democracy. There is a big task list | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
there. I just wondered for Britain, for the United States, and for | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
France, if there were lessons to be learned here too, given our | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
experiences in Iraq and in Afghanistan, was this a better way | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
to handle things, to let Libyans do it and provide some support? Well, | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
I think they are very different situations, for example, and I know | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
it has been discussed on your programme, what do we do about | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Syria, which does not lend itself to the kind of military option that | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
was there in Libya. So each situation is very different. But my | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
great regret is we did not use the full weight of American air power, | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
which we could have, which would have shortened the conflict. We | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
could have declared a no-fly zone early on, that would have ended it | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
there. But I am very appreciative that our country and Government | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
stopped Gaddafi outside the gates of Benghazi, when he was about to | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
go in and slaughter people there. I'm proud of the logistical and | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
other supports, significant support the United States provided. But I'm | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
still disappointed we didn't use the full weight of our air power. | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
You said that every situation is different. Syria's very complicated, | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
but do you think there are other dictators who should be less secure | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
in their beds tonight because of what has happened today? I think | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
dictators all over the world, including Bashar al-Assad, maybe | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
even Mr Putin, and maybe some Chinese, maybe all of them, may be | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
a little more nervous, because clearly the people of Libya rose up, | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
we assisted them, and if it hadn't have been for the British, French | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
and NATO air power, they probably wouldn't have succeeded. I think | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
they ought to be nervous, I think it is the spring, not just the Arab | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Spring. It is the spring, spring time in Russia, that might be not | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
just a place where people vote, but a real democracy do you really | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
think that? I think it is very possible that you will see people | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
protesting a Government that is clearly one that is not democratic | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
in the fashion that I think the Russian people had the hopes and | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
aspirations for, once the Soviet Union collapsed. I cannot predict | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
an armed uprising or anything like that. I could certainly see | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
significant protests in a lot of countries. Just a final thought. | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
Has President Obama handled this quite well. We have seen in the | :14:36. | :14:44. | |
past few months the death of Lyle Lad, Al-Alaki and also Gaddafi? | :14:44. | :14:54. | |
think the administration deserves great credit for laden and others. | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
In Libya I don't think we should have led from behind, but from the | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
front. We could have prevented a lot of wounded and killed that | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
ensued, because of the elongation of the conflict. To use the maximum | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
United States air power, which we have some unique capabilities. I'm | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
proud we did provide a lot of the support and very, very porned help | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
and assistance in this effort - important help and assistance in | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
this effort. We go live to Tripoli now, we hear | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
from a senior member of the National Transitional Council, | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
Mohammed Sayeh. We saw the pictures of Gaddafi wounded but alive. Was | :15:37. | :15:47. | |
:15:47. | :15:50. | ||
he deliberately executed by NTC soldiers? Hello, how are you. First | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
of all, I would like to add one point to what Mr McCain was saying | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
concerning the democracy in Libya, saying Libya never knew a democracy. | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
I would like to tell you and everybody, that there was a very | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
democratic kingdom in Libya before Gaddafi came, which is from 1952 to | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
the days of Gaddafi. In this new democracy? Just the specific point | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
about the way that Gaddafi died, are you concerned that he was | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
executed? No, he was not. He was captured alive, that is true. But | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
they were carrying him, taking him in an ambulance to a hospital in | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
Misrata, where they have crossed a firing zone, there was crossfire | :16:43. | :16:51. | |
between our mortars and Gaddafi killers. So he, a bullet, he was | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
shot from one of the sides of his head, and no-one can tell whether | :16:57. | :17:07. | |
it was from the mortars or from the soldiers. No-one can tell. It does | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
looks a if he has a bullet hole right in the middle of his forehead, | :17:12. | :17:21. | |
I wonder if you regret he won't stand trial? Yes. It would be much | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
better if we took him through justice and at least we give a | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
chance to those people who lost their sons and to the crimes that | :17:34. | :17:44. | |
:17:44. | :17:45. | ||
he did through the history. Thank God, now, the universe is free of | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
Gaddafi. This monster who did lots of bad things, not only to the | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
Libyan people, but to everybody on this universe. | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
Do you, you reminded us that there was a democracy before Gaddafi, as | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
you suggested, how confident are you that the various people who | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
came together to overthrow him, will now work together to build | :18:07. | :18:15. | |
this new Libya that you want? sure, I'm very confident that you | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
will witness the rising of a great nation. The new Libya, the very | :18:20. | :18:28. | |
democratic and civilised nation. At the moment I would like to thank | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
every single American and all the British and French and Turkish and | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
all nations that help us get rid of this nightmare. We can hear the | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
gunfire in the background which I assume is celebration. How do you | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
feel tonight as a Libyan? Well, I tell you, I am very happy. This | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
moment I think the best moment of my life, because I feel now we | :19:00. | :19:09. | |
became free, we became human, we can build up our own nation without | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
that dictator, who destroyed every good thing in our nation. | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
Just a final thought, Senator McCain said you need a lot of help, | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
you need medical help, there are people with terrible wounds, would | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
you welcome that from the United States, from Britain, from other | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
countries? Of course, of course, the United States was a good help | :19:33. | :19:40. | |
to us, there were good allies, and we will never forget what they have | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
done. All the NATO countries and the Arab states who did help us, | :19:44. | :19:54. | |
and the Islamic states, we will never forget their help. The other | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
day Mrs Clinton was here and she promised a big ship hospital will | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
sail from the United States to Tripoli to help our wounded young | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
men to be treated in Tripoli. briefly, if I may, have you got | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
everybody you are looking for? Where is Saif Gaddafi? Do you have | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
all the people you are trying to catch? Sorry, can you repeat that | :20:19. | :20:28. | |
again. Where is Gaddafi's son, Saif Gaddafi? I think he is, if he is | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
not captured yet, he will be captured very soon. He is somewhere | :20:33. | :20:43. | |
:20:43. | :20:46. | ||
in the south of Tripoli, near the mountains of begin wall lid, and I | :20:46. | :20:56. | |
:20:56. | :21:03. | ||
think he - Ben Whalid. What the President was saying, you can run | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
but you can't hide. One of the extraordinary things | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
about Colonel Gaddafi was his ability to survive, at least until | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
today, for years he was associated with international terrorist | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
movements and regarded as a significant enemy by the UK, the | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
United States and other countriesment then he rehabilitated | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
himself in the eyes of some, including Tony Blair, by giving up | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
weapons of mass destruction, and helping in the war on terror. We | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
report on the lessons of dealing with a dictator. | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
Mad, perhaps, bad, certainly. Muammar Gaddafi appeared at times | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
as a buffoon to many in the west and the wider Arab world, in Libya | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
he will be remembered for mainly his cruelty. A dictator, a tyrant, | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
a wretched man, who had no hesitation in killing his people, | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
if need be, should they oppose his rule or criticise him in any way, | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
shape or form. From a distance you look at him as a clown, but when | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
you are living underneath his rule, it is not funny any more. | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
The dashing young officer who overthrew the monarchy in 1969, in | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
the name of Arab nationalism, claimed later to have invented the | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
purest form of democracy, state of the masses. Guided by his own | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
idiosyncratic musings, collected in the Green Book, in practice, it was | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
an old-fashioned dictatorship. of the strange things to me at | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
first was all the Libyans I met would tell me he had been on the | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
telephone to them the night before, I thought they were pretending and | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
showing O eventually I came to the conclusion that he really did | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
intervene at every level, all the time, in the detailed running of | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
the country. The revolt that eventually | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
overthrew him this year was sparked by protests by the families of | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
victims of a massacre in this jail. Where about 1200 inmates were | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
killed in 1996. But Gaddafi also helped spread | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
death and destruction abroad. He armed the IRA with Semtex explosive | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
to make their bombs. Boasting it was sent to make the British pay | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
the price for their bad deeds. existence of Britain in Northern | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
Ireland is in a sense a colonisation, we will fight to get | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
rid of that. It is a just fight and we support it. In 1984, a shot from | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
inside the Libyan embassy in London, aimed at protestors jut side, | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
killed a British policewoman, Yvonne Fletcher. Five years later, | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
Libya was responsible for the blowing up of Pan Am flight 103 | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
over Lockerbie, killing 270. By then Libya had become an | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
international pariah. Years of isolation only ended after | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Gaddafi's regime admitted its role in the bombing and paid | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
compensation to the victims. It was Tony Blair's visit to the colonel's | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
desert tent in 2004, after Libya had given up its weapons of mass | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
destruction programme, that sealed his readmission to the | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
international community. Some thought it was an embrace too far. | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
The sight of Tony Blair hugging Gaddafi was sickening. Even | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
thinking back at it I find it repulsive. This is a man who kills | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
people, who has no problem in killing people who has a history of | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
killing people, and all of a sudden, we're hugging him. It was | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
disgusting, it was vile. With the memory of past crimes, still fresh | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
in many minds, was it wrong to try to make a new start? Did Britain | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
make an historic mistake in renewing ties with Gaddafi's regime, | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
a decade-and-a-half after Yvonne Fletcher's murder? Renewing | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
relations that would gradually become closer and closer, until | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
this year, the UK played a major part in helping rebels to overthrow | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
him. Is it perhaps the same mistake we are making again with some of | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
the Middle East's remaining strongmen. We maintain relations | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
with Sudan, whose President is wanted by the International | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
Criminal Court, for crimes against humanity. We have close and | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
friendly ties with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, whose absolute | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
monarchy suppresses all dissent. Yemen's dictator has been supported | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
by the west as a butress against Islamist militancy. And Syria's | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
Bashar al-Assad, was given the benefit of the doubt for a long | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
time this year, as evidence mounted of the state's killing of | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
protestors. We can't turn a blind eye. These Governments will, in | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
time, fall, as Gaddafi fell today, other tyrants will also fall, and | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
then we have to deal with the people of that country. If we | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
haven't stood by their side in their hour of need, they shall | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
remember this. But that's not a recipe for | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
practical diplomacy. When you say we made a mistake with Gaddafi, did | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
we? I think we made a very bad situation slightly better, or | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
slightly less bad. I don't think we did make a mistake, as a matter of | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
fact. There are certain policies one can worry about, but it doesn't | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
mean we shouldn't be working with regime, even when they are bad | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
regimes. Because, as I said before, the country continues to exist. | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
The man who ran Libya for more than 41 years no more. His demise, | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
thanks in part to western efforts. But he's certainly not the last of | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
his kind that we will have to do business with. | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
Earlier I spoke to the International Development Secretary, | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
Andrew Mitchell. Do you think that there is a lesson | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
here for British Governments in how to deal with dictators, that you | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
have to sup with a very long spoon? You do, but you also have to engage | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
with them on human rights issues and national interest issues. The | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
lesson from what has happened in Libya is that a long spoon is right. | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
Do you think Tony Blair got too close, many people have said he was | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
right to try to bring him back into the fold because of weapons of mass | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
destruction, and other things, but he may have got too close to him? | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
He was right to try that. But the evidence is clearly he was much too | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
close towards the end of his time. Does that mean that there are | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
lessons then for how we should deal with other dictators, or semi- | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
dictators in other parts of the world, Sudan, Syria, Yemen and so | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
on, that we should think very carefully about how we approach | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
them? The analogy with Syria, in this particular case, is not good | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
one, there was unanimity of view that Gaddafi had to be stopped from | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
conducting a bloody massacre in Benghazi. There are massacres in | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
Syria, of course? There are, but there was complete agreement across | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
the Arab world that Gaddafi's time was up. Where as I think there is | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
disagreement between the different parts of the Arab world over Syria. | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
Of course, for a long time there has been disagreement on the | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
Security Council in New York as well. They are not analogyies, I | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
think. This is a huge moment for the people of Libya and for the NTC. | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
The glue that kept the NTC together so far has been hatred of Gaddafi, | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
do you worry that because that is gone, although there is hope for | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
the future, it might not translate into the democratic state you would | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
like to see? Part of the glue that kept the NTC together was the act | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
that they were truly national, and they were transitional, as well as | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
having a common enemy in Gaddafi and a desire to get their country | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
back again. But I think everything I saw when I visited the NTC in | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
Benghazi early on in the conflict, suggests they are absolutely | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
determined to offer a new start to the people of Libya, to have a | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
genuine process leading to elections in about eight months | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
time, and to rebuild their country, and from what I saw in the work we | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
were doing, for example, on stablisation, and humanitarian | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
relief, there is both a capacity and a real ability and wish to do | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
this. You made a distinction and said Syria is a very different case, | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
I wondered if there was at least a model for British foreign policy in | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
the future. We have seen what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
this was a very different kind of conflict. No boots on the ground, | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
do you think that is something that future British Governments should | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
think about? I think all the situations are different. But I | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
think in Libya, our intervention was right, it was necessary, it was | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
legal, it was all done very carefully, I think that the | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
leadership provided by the Prime Minister and also by President | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
Sarkozy will go down, long after this is all over, as absolutely | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
critical in saving the lives of thousands of people, who would | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
otherwise have been massacred. One issue that the Prime Minister | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
raised today was Lockerbie, he mentioned the victims of Lockerbie | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
and the IRA and so on l we ever get to the truth of what happened at | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
Lockerbie, is there a lot more to come out, and if so, will you | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
publish it? I hope we get to the truth. The Prime Minister was clear | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
that all the indications from Tripoli, from the new regime, are | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
that they want to co-operate and they want to help. Not least on PC | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
Yvonne Fletcher, whose vile murder on the streets of London has still | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
not properly been resolved. I think on all these things there is huge | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
good will towards Britain for the work we have done. And quite clear | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
support for trying to bring these matters to a proper conclusion. | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
you surprised that Al-Megrahi has outlived dad gad? I am - Gaddafi? I | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
am surprised, given what we were told bit last Government and the | :31:07. | :31:15. | |
Scottish Executive. But I think his life is drawing to a close. | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
For some sense of the significance of today's events and where it | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
leaves the Arab Spring as we go into autumn. I'm joined by the | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
Conservative MP, Rory Stewart and Nablia Ramdani, and David Gordon, | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
formally of the US State Department. On that point, your sense of the | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
moment in history, how big a deal is this, do you think? I think it | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
is quite a big deal. Obviously it is a very big deal for Libya. I'm | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
actually of the view that it's probably a good thing for Libya | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
that Gaddafi is dead and that there is not a trial. I actually think | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
that trials, that trial of Saddam Hussein, the trial of Mubarak, | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
actually don't help to bring the country together. I think that the | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
death of Gaddafi, coincident with the fall of Sirte, gives the | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
potential to have a dramatic end to the conflict period here, and move | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
on to what will be a very challenging stage, but one that | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
holds a lot of promise, that of rebuilding Libya and creating a new | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
regime here, and a new, more democratic dispensation. For the | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
rest of the region. I just want to bring in Nablia Ramdani on that | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
point. Do you regret there is not going to be a trial, are you | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
worried about the circumstances of his death, do you think people will | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
care all that much now he's gone? Ideally you clearly want to see | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
justice, the rule of law and due process apply to anyone, including | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
a murderous tyrant like Gaddafi. I have to say that his death took | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
place in the context of a savage civil war, I'm afraid it was almost | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
inevitable he would end up that way. Given the amount of hatred that he | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
managed to build up throughout the decades where he ruled with an iron | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
fist. You know, he, at the end of the day, created a very barbaric | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
society. It is that very barbaric society that killed him. You were | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
listening to Senator John McCain, he said dictators all around the | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
world, including China and Russia, could pay attention to this, | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
because they will be overthrown. What do you make of that, did he | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
overstep it or does he have a point? I disagree, it is very | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
dangerous to try to draw the connections. I don't think Putin or | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
China will sleep uneasy in their beds because of this. I think it is | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
a Middle East and North African phenomenon, I think one of the | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
dangers is thinking, as John McCain seemed to apply, that we have found | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
a universal model, and there is a new spring for the world. I think | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
that is dangerous talk. I don't know if you heard that. A new | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
spring for the world, what do you make of that, is he right or wrong? | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
I basically agree with Rory. I mean, I think that this is very | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
significant in the region. But the significance I would put primarily | :34:18. | :34:27. | |
in two states. I think that Syria is now at considerable risk of and | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
President Assad is at considerable risk of seeing his regime, I think, | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
begin to unravel, some what more quickly. I think behind that, | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
especially if Assad goes, then the regime in Iran could really see, I | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
think, an uptake in political opposition. I think Rory is right. | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
The notion that this spreads to China, to Russia is just very far | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
fetched at this point. One of the things that we have been keeling | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
with all night is lessons for whom? Including lessons for Britain, | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
France and the United States, intervention what works and what | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
doesn't. How do you think this has been seen through the Arab world. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
There was a significant consensus in the Arab League that something | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
should be done to protect Benghazi? The victory of British and French | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
foreign policy will perhaps buoy up those Governments to think of their | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
foreign policy in a new way. Meaning that they will perhaps | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
value military interventions in the future, just like Tony Blair did | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
after his success in Kosovo, he valued military action elsewhere, | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
he pursued it in Sierra Leone, Afghanistan and indeed finally in | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
Iraq. It might be that western Governments, including Britain, | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
might feel brave enough to take on new countries. Do you think that is | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
a good thing. I'm sure Rory will disagree with this, I know his | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
views. We know about Iran, the possibility of more protests in | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
Iran, we know what a mess Syria is in. We don't see a western appetite | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
to get involved in the same way they did in Libya? For western | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
powers Libya was a safer bet. It doesn't have the regional | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
implication that Syria has. Gaddafi was a friendless dictator, he | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
doesn't have the regional, powerful regional allies that Syria has, | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
that can pose a threat to the world and the region. And a final point, | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
dare I say, Libya offers very attractive prospects in terms of | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
oil and natural gas. Which will make the military adventures abs | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
loutly worthwhile. I think the - Absolutely worthwhile. I think the | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
other point is Libya had regional support and UN support. Although it | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
doesn't go to the moral rights and wrongs, it is crucial for whether | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
we can do these things. If you Co Go to a country like Syria, where | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
the regional support is flakey and the international support isn't | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
there. What did we learn, liberal interventionism, has that peaked or | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
is that it? I hope what we have learned is every condition is | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
different. No boots on the ground, strong regional support, strong UN | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
support, you have a hope. You have to be very patient. We had an | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
almost stalemate for six months. You have to hold your nerve. I | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
completely disagree with the McCain idea that we should have gone in | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
hard from the beginning, showing off the full extent of American air | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
power. What I thought when I was in Tripoli this worked best because | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Libyans felt it was their thing. They felt it was like Egypt or | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
Tunisia, they owned it, that is why we saw people celebrate in the | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
square the way we never did in Baghdad or Kabul. President Obama | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
welcomed this, when you travelled around the United States, do you | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
not get a sense that Americans don't want to do abroad, they have | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
had enough and want to concentrate at home? I think that's very much | :38:02. | :38:10. | |
the case. I think that, frankly there are very few broadly | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
generalisable lessons from Libya, particularly on the military side. | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
I think you had the, ordinary circumstance here of Colonel | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
Gaddafi having totally unif you areating all of the other countries | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
in the region, to the point where the Arab League requested a | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
military intervention by NATO. That's not going to happen anywhere | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
else. It will won't happen in Syria. But it is literally we are never | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
going to see that again. I think the notion that this is going to | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
lead to a greater sympathy and a greater orientation towards | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
military instruments to do this kind of thing, by western powers, | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
is really not the case. In the United States, I think the | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
interesting thing here is, as you look at the very, very Conservative, | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
Republican presidential as pier rants, none of them are - aspirants, | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
none of them is calling for anything else. We have killed Bin | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
Laden and seen the enormous difficulties of co-operation with | :39:17. | :39:23. | |
Pakistan. I think that the US is leading towards a much lower | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
military footprint abroad, as we head into a period where we work | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
towards reenergising things at home. More on Colonel Gaddafi in a moment. | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
First some news about Newsnight next week. The world's population | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
looks set to pass the seven billion mark. In a series of films on food | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
security, we will ask how do we continue to Feed The World when | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
there are so many people in it. Parts of the planet a growing | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
middle-class consumes more resource, while in poorer regions more people | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
are starving than before. We have a week of special reports beginning | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
in Africa. In an age of food crisis we report from Africa, on the | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
promise of a cultural revolution. Africa will be the net exporter of | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
food. We are not working anywhere, we are suffering. We will | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
investigate the challenge faced by some of the world's poorest people, | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
as famine grips vast swathes of the continent. | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
Our first report comes from Zambia, where a revolution is taking place | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
on the land. Can these become fields of plenty? | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
The Metropolitan Police has called in the Independent Police | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
Complaints Commisssion after our story last night exposed the work | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
of an undercover police officer who gave false information under oath, | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
in a criminal trial. He had infiltrated a Campaign Group in a | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
case lawyers say raises questions about the integrity of the criminal | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
justice system. Richard Watson, who broke the story, | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
is here. The Met Police issued a statement | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
tonight, they have given themselves one degree of freedom, saying they | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
have contacked the IPCC with a view - contacted the IPCC with a view to | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
referral. This is the allegations we raised last night along with the | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
Guardian. Crucially, central to this issue is how many other cases | :41:18. | :41:27. | |
are there, it is interesting they used the phrase of historic covert | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
police operations, crucial is the central relationship between | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
Boyling policy and the Metropolitan Police handlers. I have been trying | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
to investigate the matters today. Our story about undercover cop, Jim | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
Boyling, is toxic for the Metropolitan Police. Especially if | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
it turns out that senior officers authorised him to give false | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
evidence in court, to avoid his cover being blown. If someone is | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
given a false name, under oath, in court, in my book it is perjury. | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
Whether you are a police officer, a politician, a journalist or an | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
ordinary member of the public. the ends justify the means. Clearly | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
in this recent case and other publicised cases, I would most | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
definitely say they do not. Beginning in 1995, Jim Boyling used | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
an alias while taking part in protests like this, organised by | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
the group, Reclaim The Streets. Two years later he maintained his new | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
identity while appearing in court for disorderly behaviour, at a | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
protest in the offices of London Transport. In 1999, Boyling began a | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
relationship with a fellow activist he went on to marry. This year Her | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary began an investigation | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
into undercover policing, and its report has been delayed as a result | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
of Newsnight's revelations. Is it really credible that Jim Boyling | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
was acting on his own, or whether some systems within the | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
Metropolitan Police authorised his behaviour to take part in the | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
criminal justice system, right up until the trial where he gave false | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
evidence. Maintaining his cover story, he attended pretrial | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
meetings with other activist friends charged with public order | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
offences. His solicitor told us yesterday this was a perversion of | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
the legal process, surely someone at the Met must have known what was | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
going on. There are many questions to be asked about those cover | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
officers, what did they do. You know a cover officer should be in | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
daily contact with his undercover operative. The management should | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
want to get in front of that undercover operative each week and | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
look into his eyes. If his cover officers did know, did they tell | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
senior leaders at the Met. The police are facing tough questions | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
on this too. I have seen documents which show | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
that the Metropolitan Police were holding an internal investigation | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
into Jim Boyling, and it started in January this year. It is still | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
active, it has been going on for ten months. The key question is | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
whether that investigation found evidence that Jim Boyling was using | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
his cover name, Jim Sutton, in a criminal trial. If they did find | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
that evidence, why they did not share it with the police | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
inspectorate. The question of proportionality is | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
central to the HMIC report, which was due to be released today. Is it | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
appropriate to use undercover officers to penetrate environmental | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
movements. Currently the police are left to make these judgments | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
themselves. Their decisions are now checked internally and externally | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
retrospectively. Privacy protection in Britain has grown up in an ad | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
hoc and piecemeal way. You need a magistrates warrant before you can | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
search someone's home or office. You need a politician's warrant | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
before you can tap their phone. But when you are putting people under | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
cover, pretending to be their friend, comrade or colleague, the | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
police can basically sign that off in house. That is not good enough | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
to establish trust in modern Britain. These are important policy | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
issues which will be considered when the delayed report into | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
undercover policing is published. For now there are more pressing | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
matters for the Met, such as the prospect of an IPCC investigation, | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
and criminal proceedings against some of its own. | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
I have learned a little bit more p the shenanigans between the | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
Metropolitan Police and Her Majesty's Inspectorate of | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
Constabulary today. The crucial point is what the Met told the HMIC. | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
My understanding is they didn't tell them about the internal | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
investigation into Jim Boyling. That will be one of the big | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
questions HMIC and others will want to get to the bottom of. | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
More now on the main story, over the past 42 years, Colonel Gaddafi | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
has been one of the most striking world figures, along with Fidel | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
Castro, Yasser Arafat and others. His face and bizarre style made him | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
a peculiar type of political eye kofpblt we report on the icon oing | :45:49. | :45:59. | |
:45:59. | :46:05. | ||
- icon. We report on the The colonel, mysteriously he never | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
promoted himself above colonel, was a bogeyman to the international | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
community, but love him or hate him, how long do you need for that one, | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
you certainly couldn't ignore him. He was a mixture of the terrible | :46:15. | :46:25. | |
:46:25. | :46:29. | ||
and the eye-popping, a tyrant, wardrobed by Lady Gaga. | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
The desert can be an unforgiving environment for male grooming, it | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
take as particular stripe of man to carry off a whole look. Think of | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
Lawrence of Saudo Arabia, the classic French foreign legionnaire. | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
There was General Rommell, in his own way, and more recently, Colonel | :46:49. | :46:56. | |
Gaddafi. Where he was completely over the top, hugely distinguished, | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
was in his own get-ups. His own get-ups were special, were madder | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
than mad. It was sort of a combination of Liberace, and | :47:09. | :47:19. | |
:47:19. | :47:22. | ||
Michael Jackson and a whole lot of crazy cartoon figures. | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
The older he got, the crazer those get-ups looked, as if he had | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
watched Hollywood films or maybe his dressers had watched Hollywood | :47:31. | :47:41. | |
:47:41. | :47:43. | ||
films. There is one with him as a fur hat and trapper leather jacket. | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
It wasn't only the outfits that occasion described, it was said he | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
had a tendency to break wind in front of the BBC's world affairs | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
reporter. It was reported he trusted his personal safety to | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
female body guards. Some say it is evidence of enlightened attitudes | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
in Gaddafi's promotion of women. His women was something that stemed | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
from his only personal need and desire to stand out and be unique | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
among other Arab leaders. He viewed himself as somebody who had | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
liberated himself from the backwardness of the east. Through | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
that he wanted to show that he was the new empowerer of women, without | :48:30. | :48:40. | |
:48:40. | :48:42. | ||
necessarily resorting to modern, western feminism. The The point | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
about dictator style is biging yourself up. You may start as a man, | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
but you want to end up as a God. Think French, because the French | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
style of furniture and decoration is the style of plutocrats and | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
despots for the last 150 years. Others don't understand it, they | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
think this stuff is trivial. As Oscar Wilde said, only a fool | :49:08. | :49:15. | |
doesn't judge by appearances. The extraordinary appearance of, say, a | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
dictator's interior, tells you that here is paranoia and insecurity on | :49:19. | :49:27. | |
a massive scale. The wish to intimidate and impress en massive | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
scale, and there is danger and dodginess in that. | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
But at one time, at least, there was method in the madness, a point | :49:35. | :49:42. | |
to all that showmanship. It was marking out Gaddafi's Libya as | :49:42. | :49:50. | |
different, a Bedouin revolution. At times it seemed as if there was | :49:50. | :49:57. | |
a whole caravan of Gaddafi's, each one more exoticically gashed than | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
the last. Even after - garbed than the last. Even after his demise, | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
the deconstruction may go on for some time yet. No time for the | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
papers, that is all from Newsnight tonight, Emily is back tomorrow at | :50:11. | :50:21. | |
:50:21. | :50:42. | ||
the same time. Hello there. Much more cloud across | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
the country tonight, compared to last night. Which means it won't be | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
anything like as cold first thing in the morning. It does make for a | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
rather grey start, however. It should brighten up across central | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
and eastern areas in particular. Some sunshine. Light rain is | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
possible across the far north of England. For most of England and | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
Wales it should be a dry day. Eventually some sunshine coming | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
through. That will lift the temperatures. Higher than | :51:07. | :51:14. | |
Thursday's, peaking in the low to mid-teens. The moisture is coming | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
off the Atlantic. Parts of South- West England and west Wales will | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
stay grey with that cloud throughout the day. To the northern | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
and eastern hills we may get breaks in the cloud and a bit of sunshine. | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
Cloudy in Northern Ireland, some cloud drifting to the north. A | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
soingyo day for parts of western and central Scotland. Along the | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
Moray Frith, things could brighten up, that could lift the | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
temperatures. Saturday will see further rain in western Scotland | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
and Northern Ireland. Across Saturday a dry day. The breeze | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
picking up. It might not feel as warm as the temperatures would | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
suggest. The rain for western Scotland on Saturday, it may edge | :51:57. | :52:01. |