Browse content similar to 19/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The outcome of the confrontation isn't in doubt, soon the police and | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
bailiffs will have evicted the 80- odd families living illegally on | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
green belt land in Dale Farm in Essex. The United Nations claims | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
this amounts to state bullying of a minority. Is it? What alternative | :00:25. | :00:32. | |
is there when people refuse to obey the law? One of the UN committee on | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
the elimination of racism, believes we are being willfully blind to an | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
injustice. Newsnight reveals the story of an | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
undercover policeman who was then arrested and gave false evidence in | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
court. It is a perversion of the legal process. I think it's | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
institutionalised police corruption of the legal process for this to | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
happen. As we go on air, it has emerged that our story has delayed | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
an HMIC report into another undercover cop case, which was due | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
tomorrow. What does the former Director of | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
Public Prosecutions think of that? For the first time in British | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
history, you can vote in a referendum, a referendum to shape | :01:12. | :01:19. | |
the lives of your children. It has been the best part of four decades, | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
and many Conservatives think it is long past the time that people in | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
Britain had the chance to say what they think of membership of the | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
European Union. Why doesn't their own party leader? Has the Fox | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
episode brought lasting taint of scandal to - Liam Fox episode | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
brought lasting taint of scandal to the Government. This week of all | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
weeks, my advice to the Prime Minister, is show a bit of humility. | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
I think we should have a little bit of humility from the people who | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
:01:58. | :02:03. | ||
gave us cabs for hire, passports For so-called travellers, they have | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
been extremely reluctant to travel any where It kicked off early this | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
morning after the legal process had been exhausted, and police and | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
bailiffs moved in. It has been the staple fare of the news channels | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
all day, as at an estimated cost to tax-payers of some �18 million, the | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
illegal settlement in Dale Farm in Essex is cleared. The confrontation | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
between them and the balaclavaed supporters, and the men and women | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
in high-visibility jackets, provide the scenes that the electronic | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
media love. We tried to look a little deeper. | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
Dawn, in a once quiet corner of the Essex countryside. Hundreds of riot | :02:44. | :02:54. | |
:02:54. | :02:56. | ||
police moved in, as Dale Farm became a surreal battleground. | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
Rocks, barricades and taunts, where all the travellers and their | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
supporters had left to defend the largely illegal settlement. They | :03:08. | :03:17. | |
have lost a ten-year courtroom battle. The eviction operation is | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
budgeted to cost up to �17.5 million, enough money to have | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
provided many new traveller sites. The defendants' defiance showed as | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
a caravan went up in flames. They intend to fight yard by yard, over | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
a site that is still a legal minefield. Some constructions can | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
be knocked down, others can't. and 38 have full residential use, | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
the yellow sections have full residential use. | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
Inside the site, beyond police lines, there was an uneasy calm, | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
but travellers claimed legally held property had been damaged. | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
REPORTER: Why did they cross here? I don't know. We will have to ask | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
them. Many families were beginning for evictions to begin in earnest? | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
There is complete confusion with people here unsure how many more | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
nights they will be able to stay and where they will move on to. | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
There is also increasing uncertainty nationally over | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
Government policy towards gypsies and travellers. Dale Farm is a test | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
case, being closely watched by groups involved in similar | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
controversy up and down the country. By councils, by travellers and by | :04:36. | :04:45. | |
permanently settled residents. Gypsy activist Candy Sher din, is | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
worried what other councils will learn from what happened here, | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
where the council has worked so hard to remove the settlement. | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
Firstly, I can't provide for my community, if the council won't | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
provide the land or assist them in planning application, it sends the | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
message, why bother, and that it is acceptable just to ignore us. That | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
is appalling. The total number of gypsy caravans in England has risen | :05:14. | :05:24. | |
:05:24. | :05:29. | ||
What gypsies and travellers fear is that major changes to the planning | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
rules, being proposed by the Government, would make it even | :05:32. | :05:42. | |
:05:42. | :05:44. | ||
harder for them to find authorised sites to live on. The Government is | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
proposing to Regional targets. It is also bringing in a Localism Bill, | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
which would give voters increased powers to object to particular | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
developments. We know that the key obstacle against provision for gip | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
say traveller sites comes at the local level. Discrimination at the | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
local level, misconceptions at the local level, that gypsy sites will | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
lead to crime and dysfunction in the communities. That isn't, in the | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
majority of cases not true. With the regional spacial strategies | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
combined and others will lead to a huge shortage of gypsy sites in the | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
long-term. Current guidelines say that councils should address the | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
underprovision of authorised sites, and should recognise, protect a | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
facilitate the traditional travelling way of life. But the | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
coalition Government's consultation document on planning for | :06:35. | :06:45. | |
:06:45. | :07:01. | ||
In Basildon Council says it is not against travellers, and will | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
continue to provide sites for them, if they show more flexibility. | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
There has to be a deal between travellers, local authorities and | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
communities. The onus is on the travellers to find land that is | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
suitable for development. Travellers in the past have gone | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
for green belt sites, which is obviously not suitable for | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
development, and very hard to get planning permission for. I really | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
think there is an opportunity for the travellers now to move on and | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
act within the law as well. But it won't be easy for travellers to | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
find more appropriate sites. When so many settled residents oppose | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
their presence. Dale Farm is being cleared in the interests of | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
creating a level legal playing field for all. As its defenders | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
prepare for another night of resistance, many here feel that the | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
evictions are just another blow to a community whose way of life is | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
being slowly, but steadily eroded. A little while ago I discussed some | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
of the issues raised with Anastasia Crickley, a member of the United | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
Nations committee on the Committee on the Elimination of Racial | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
Discrimination, and with John Baron MP for Basildon and Billericay. I | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
asked Miss Crickley what a planning application had to do with the | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
United Nations. The situation in Dale Farm was something considered | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
previously by the committee and brought to the attention of the | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
committee by a number of groups representing the residents there. | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
We are saying it is a matter that deserves consideration by a | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
committee which is looking at the possibilities of racism and | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
discrimination. John Baron? Basically it is a lot of tosh and | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
nonsense and mindless meddling by an organisation that should know | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
better. This is not about racial discrimination, this is about a | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
planning regulation that has been brong, contravened, it is about us | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
- broken, contravened, it is about us putting those planning | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
regulations right on behalf of the local majority. They talk about | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
human rights, but what they forget is we all have human rights, | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
including the law-abiding majority, and one of those is an expectation | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
that the law will be applied equitably and fairly, and there | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
should be no exceptions to that. Why should these people be treated | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
any differently to everyone else in in country? It is absolutely the | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
case that in every country, which is a party to the Convention on The | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
elimination of racism, that there is an impolicement acknowledgement | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
that there can be racism in that country. It is the case that you | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
don't achieve equality in any country, in any circumstances, by | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
pretending that everybody is automatically equal, and | :09:43. | :09:53. | |
automatically has equal access to the law or their rights. Otherwise. | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
You're absolutely right. You are barking up completely the | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
wrong tree, make this absolutely clear, this is not about racial | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
discrimination, this is about enforcing the law, which has been | :10:02. | :10:12. | |
:10:12. | :10:13. | ||
broken by a group of people who knew they were breaking the law. | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
Our courts decided they were breaking the law and we are | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
enforcing that law. Can I suggest something useful for you to do, get | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
on to the travellers and tell them to call off their protestors using | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
violence against the police. This has involved arrests, throwing of | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
stones, iron bars and so forth, because the protestors are there at | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
the behest of the travellers, and courts have told them that site | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
should be cleared. That is something you could do on behalf of | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
the law-abiding majority and help minimise the violence at present | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
taking place there. First of all there seems to be an implicit | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
assumption that the law-abiding majority do not include travellers | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
or gypsies or include any of the traveller or gypsy community who | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
happens to be living in Dale Farm. That's a useful assumption to make | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
I don't think. Secondly, the circumstances in which people find | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
themselves is ones they must judge and they must make their own | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
decision about the best action to take at this time. Can I take you | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
will not do anything useful and ask them to stop the violence. | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
committee that is responsible for monitoring the implementation of | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
the UN Convention on The elimination of racism has said, we | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
have said there is a case for culturally appropriate | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
accommodation to be provided and identified and provided for the | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
people who are residents in Dale Farm. For the avoidance of any | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
doubt, what is culturally appropriate accommodation? | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
Culturally appropriate accommodation, is accommodation, as | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
I understand it, which has been looked at by other UN committees, | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
which allows for collective expression of culture. Look you | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
signed up to this report, can you please tell us what you meant by | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
talking about the provision of culturally appropriate | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
accommodation, what is it? What we invited and encouraged your | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
Government and your authorities to do is to look to the provision of | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
accommodation which meets the needs and requirements of the community | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
that are there. What do you mean? I'm aware that there have been, | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
what I mean is we do not consider provision of homeless families | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
accommodation to be culturally appropriate accommodation. Because | :12:30. | :12:38. | |
they are not homeless families? This whole situation has emerged | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
because of the reality that the Roma and travelling people that | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
live there, want to live in the way in which they have traditionally | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
lived. That is not the desire of all traveller people in the UK or | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
other parts of Europe, or other parts of the world. It is an | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
acknowledgement of their diversity on their difference. That is what | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
we are asking that your Government and yourself does. Can you help us, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
why haven't you provided culturally appropriate accommodation? We have, | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
we have 110 authorised sites and pitches locally, many more than any | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
other local authorities. We have offered bricks and mortar, so | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
nobody needs to be homeless, but the travellers themselves have | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
refused that. We have also made the travellers aware of other vacant | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
authorised sites in other parts of the country, they have said they | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
don't want to travel. There is only so much we can do. At the end of | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
the day they have broken the law and that site will be cleared, we | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
hope, as peacefully as possible. Where are they tonight those | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
families who have left? We don't know for sure, they are not on the | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
side of the road, or in the Tesco car parks as they said they would | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
be. There are all sorts of reports, but they are not homeless, as far | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
as we know. The game is over, the problem is finished, once they are | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
somebody else's problem? It is not quite like that. We have said we | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
have obligations to meet, we have offered accommodation, that is | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
refused by travellers. We have made them aware of vacant authorised | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
sites elsewhere, that has been refused, we have provided more | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
sites than anywhere else. We are not trying to wash our hands of it, | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
this site needs to be cleared, because they have broken the law | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
and the law-abiding majority expect that site to be cleared, and it | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
will be cleared. Could I suggest to you that there are a number of | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
useful things that you and your colleagues might be able to | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
consider doing as well. Such as engaging in direct consultation | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
with the travellers and with the people who have been evicted to | :14:31. | :14:40. | |
make sure that their circumstances are not worsened over the next few | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
weeks. We have engaged for ten years, the time for talking is over. | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of the current situation, | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
I'm aware of the hardship it has caused for the travellers, and also | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
the extent it can exasperate further discrimination against | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
travellers. If I could call on the honourable member of Parliament and | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
others watching the programme, I would call on them and the media to | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
ensure this does nothing to exasperate further the real | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
discrimination experienced by travellers and gypsies in the UK | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
and other countries in Europe. Thank you very much. So far this | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
year there have been no fewer than eight inquiries set up after the | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
discovery that undercover police have been used to infiltrate | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
political organisations. There may be a ninth soon, tonight Newsnight | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
has evidence of another operation where an undercover policeman gave | :15:38. | :15:46. | |
false evidence in court. He became an undercover activist on Reclaim | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
the Streets campaign. These latest revelations have delayed the report | :15:51. | :16:01. | |
:16:01. | :16:01. | ||
into another undercover cop case due tomorrow. | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Though this story has only just come to light, it can be traced | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
back to this demonstration in central London in August 1996. | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
Traffic was brought it a halt by protestors from a non-violent, pro- | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
cycling Campaign Group, called Reclaim the Streets. Prominent | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
among them was an activist called Jim Sutton. Jim was very practical, | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
he was the man with the van. He was super-practical, he was there right | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
at the centre of stuff. A splinter group of demonstrators left | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
Trafalgar Square and came here to St James's Park, to the | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
headquarters of London Underground, amongst them was John Jordan, an | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
activist, and Sutton sut, the undercover policeman. They went | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
into the building and up the stairsment their aim was to get to | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
the seventh floor and the chairman's office, to unfurl a | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
banner. Jim Sutton, the policeman, was playing a leading role. The | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
protestors were here in support of a tube drivers' strike. Jim Sutton | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
was an undercover cop, working with the Metropolitan Police unit, | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
charged with looking at protest movements. As part of the protest | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
group, John Jordan was one of the targets. We occupied the building, | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
we went up, some people got up to the chairman's office, including | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
Jim. Jim went out, put massive banner, which said "don't squeeze | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
the tube". He said the police arrived remarkably quickly, and | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
there were scuffles, as he went upstairs he picked up a policeman's | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
helmet on the ground. Lift doors opened, riot police out, arrest us | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
all, I had the policeman's helmet under my jumper. Clearly I wasn't | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
pregnant. I get arrested. Get to the police station and I'm charged | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
with assault of a police officer. Clearly something I didn't do. | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
activists, including Jim Sutton, were brought here to Charring Cross | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
police station in central London for questioning. They sought legal | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
advice, and a solicitor, from the birm, Bindmans, attended. We have | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
obtained copies of the custody records, it shows Jim Sutton was | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
using his fake name and cover as a cleaner, what police intelligence | :18:12. | :18:22. | |
:18:22. | :18:26. | ||
experts call, his legend. His Jim Sutton and 12 other activists | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
were later charged with public order offences, the undercover cop | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
was entering the legal process. This didn't emerge until now. After | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
all the reporting earlier this year about undercover cop Mark Kennedy, | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
Jim Sutton's name appeared in the media, as another undercover | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
operative. The solicitor working on the Kennedy cases of curious. | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
looked at our records, our records confirmed one of them, Jim Sutton, | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
had been a client of our's. must have been amazed when you saw | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
that? I was shocked. I thought it couldn't be true. But it is true. | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
John Jordan, and the others, thought Jim Sutton was a fellow | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
defendant, when their cases all went to a criminal trial. He would | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
have given evidence under oath about who he was b what had | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
happened, and - about what had happened, and as serious, he | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
allowed himself to be put in a position where he was arrested, | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
charged and prosecuted, and potentially convicted of a criminal | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
offence. Just because the District Judge found him not guilty that he | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
wasn't convicted. He and his minders allowed him to be put in a | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
position where he could be found guilty of a criminal offence. If | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
that is a criminal offence committed by a serving undercover | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
police officer, giving evidence on oath, with the benefit of | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
privileged legal advice, he shouldn't have had, that is most | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
serious. Bindmans have asked for an | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
explanation from the Metropolitan Police, and the CPS, but are yet to | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
receive an answer. We asked a Lib Dem member of the Metropolitan | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
Police authority for her reaction tonight? It is almost beyond belief. | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
I'm coming to terms with the fact that it has happened, but it is | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
just, it beggers belief. How on earth can that happen? It make as | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
complete mockery of the judicial system. There are some very serious | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
questions that must be asked of the police, that is, who in the Met | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
authorised it, if anyone? If they authorised it, why did they | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
authorised it, and is that - authorise it, and why are they | :20:34. | :20:44. | |
:20:44. | :20:45. | ||
working for the Met. That is what I will be asking at the meeting of | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
metropolitan police officers. John Jordan was found guilty, and | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
is wondering if that is safe? have jobs where I'm working with | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
students and to have assault of a police officer on your record was | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
difficult. I think it is a perversion of the legal process. I | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
think it is institutionalised police corruption and the legal | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
process for this to happen. At the very least they ought to have | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
explained up front what their acceptable limits are, so that the | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
public, politicians and judges, who might or should be regulating their | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
activity, could have a say and a view. They seem to have gone | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
freelance on this. The Metropolitan Police declined to | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
comment today on this specific case, but pointed us towards new | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
legislation from 2000 that should have made it impossible for | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
undercover police officers to give evidence in court under their false | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
identities. The question is now, how many cases went through before | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
this case. Further developments tonight, I | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
gather? Extraordinary development, 15 minutes ago, the HM Inspectorate | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
of Constabulary, due to launch a very important report tomorrow, | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
about the use of undercover officers and the protocol | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
surrounding that. They say in light of the revelations in the media | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
today, they are delaying the launch of the report, so they can consider | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
the relevance of this information, and the recommendations for | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
improvements in undercover policing. We will write to the Guardian and | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
Newsnight to find out additional information they have. The | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
Metropolitan Police have been changing their line on this, I | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
think it is fair to say, all day, at first it was a "no comment", | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
then it became a procedural amount of information about the use of | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
undercover officers. Just tonight in the last six minutes, they have | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
said that the Metropolitan Police Service acknowledges these are | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
serious matters, and is continuing to review the situation and taking | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
account of any additional information becoming available. | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
This story is moving very fast. former Director of Public | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
Prosecutions in England and Wales is here now to react to tonight's | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
story. What do you make of this latest disclosure about an | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
undercover policeman? Well they have crossed the line. You don't | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
send police officers into court to lie about who they are b their | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
identity b what their role is - about their identity, about what | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
their role is in investigations. You don't send them into | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
solicitors' offices and pretending to be party to legal conferences. | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
It is a serious issue and they have crossed the line. What does it do | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
to the convictions of anyone arrested and convicted in those | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
circumstances? It causes issues, if I was in the dock with an | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
undercover police officer and I had advised both defendants in the | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
trial, I would go to the Court of Appeal saying the conviction is | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
unsafe and it has to be overturned. I'm sure that is what will happen | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
were defence lawyers are confident this is the situation. Has to be | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
overturned because? Because you have a situation where a police | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
officer is posing as a defendant, is party to defence conferences | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
with his lawyers, the other defendant's lawyers, is party to | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
confidential information, may be passing it back to his handlers, | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
and going in to court as part of the defence team, telling lies. | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
knows what the defence likely to be? He knows the defence. He may be | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
reporting it back to the police, that may in all sorts of ways | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
affect the way the case is conducted. It is clearly, it seems | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
to me clearly the Court of Appeal with regard a conviction in those | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
circumstances as being potentially unsafe. Do you think this latest | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
revelation makes the case for yet another inquiry? The report that | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
was to be released tomorrow has been held back. I'm not at all | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
surprised by that. I think the authors of that report are going to | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
have to stand back, look at the evidence that you have produced and | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
the Guardian has produced, and see how that impacts on the research | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
they have done. This is a very serious development. This seems to | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
be part of pattern of behaviour of undercover police officers in | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
groups that are not particularly dangerous. We are not talking about | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
terrorists here. It is a bunch of cyclists? We are not talking about | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
terrorists, it is a cyclist Campaign Group. This is what is so | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
difficult to understand the police would have taken the risk of | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
putting people into these situations and into court, not | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
because they are combatting serious crime, but because people are | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
stopping the traffic. That seems to be, on the face of it, a monumental | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
misjudgment. Thank you. The British people | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
aren't going to be given the chance to vote on whether the country | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
should remain part of the European Union. At least they won't, if the | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
Prime Minister gets his way. He says such a vote would be a | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
distraction at a time when the EU needs to be dealing with issues | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
causing riots in Greece and threatening the whole European | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
project. But the deeper issue of whether | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
Britain should be in the EU at all is in the bloodstream of the Tory | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
Party, like some dormant, but potentially paralysing, virus. | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
This was David Cameron's response to a question on the vote on the | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
future of Britain in the European Union? I completely understand and | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
share the frustration that many have about the way the European | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
Union goes about its business, about the costs and butter oxcy. | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
But I have to say, I think the - bureaucracy. But I have to say the | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
key point here is to get on top of the budget, keep Britain out of the | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
bailout schemes, make sure the single market is working. As the | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
Conservative Party we are committed to the return of powers from | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
Brussels to Westminster, we are also committed as a Government, if | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
power passes from Brussels to, from Westminster to Brussels, there | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
would have to be a referendum. That promise is good for the whole of | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
this Parliament and beyond. But I don't support holding a referendum | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
come what may. That is not our policy and I will not be supporting | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
that motion. What is in this motion? I think never mind Dale | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
Farm, there is a stand-off going on at Westminster at the moment. An | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
act of rebellion against the Prime Minister a bit of hostility, it is | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
this motion at the core of it. This isn't a motion simply about | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
withdrawing from the EU. It is a backbench motion which is designed | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
to maximise Euro-sceptic report, by giving three potentially options in | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
the referendum. Those options would be, remaining a member of the | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
European Union on the current terms, leaving the European Union entirely, | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
or renegotiating the terms of membership to carry on a new | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
relationship with Europe. That is quite clever, because the centre of | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
gravity in the Conservative parliamentary party is in the last | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
point on renegotiation. Only about 30 MPs across the House want to | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
leave. That puts pressure on the Prime Minister. Officially 46 | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
backbench MPs have signed up to the multioption motion on the | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
referendum, I'm told tonight as many as 80 Conservatives might be | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
prepared to rebel against the Government line by voting this down | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
when it is debated early next week. The reason the Government sees it | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
as a an act of rebellion, is because the option of - as an act | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
of rebellion is the option of complete withdrawal from the | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
European Union is there. Presumably Labour won't go along with this, | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
maybe they will, I don't know, the Liberal Democrats certainly won't? | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
The Liberal Democrats certainly don't. And the latest from Labour | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
is they will whip against it too. The Prime Minister is in a hole, he | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
doesn't necessarily want further splits and divisions on Europe. | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
This was supposed to be discussed next Thursday, it is brought | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
forward now to Monday, when the Prime Minister and the Foreign | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
Secretary can be present. The reason for that is partly the Prime | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
Minister's presence, which will communicate to waivers they | :28:30. | :28:38. | |
shouldn't mess with him if we want a career. William Hague is a famous | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
Euro-sceptic, but in the current circumstance in the mids of the | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
European crisis remotion isn't there. It is a backbench motion and | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
not binding, so there are calls for a free vote on it, and wipe out the | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
rebellion at one fell swoop. For the Prime Minister it may look like | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
an act of weaks in, at the moment it looks like - weakness, at the | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
moment they willth looks he will try to face them down. I'm joined | :29:11. | :29:20. | |
:29:21. | :29:21. | ||
by my guests now. My guest was expelled from the | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
Conservative Party after arguments over European partners. Why do you | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
want to embarrass your leaders? don't, I want to make sure the | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
British people have a right to decide their future. People are | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
crying out for a referendum. This will undermine him? No, actually, | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
what needs to happen is the British people to express their views. | :29:42. | :29:50. | |
David Cameron has a very strong negotiating tour - tool when he | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
goes to Brussels to sort all this out. We were told was a market and | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
not a European Union, and that is not what we voted for and people | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
are fed up with it. It says a lot about the state of the Tory Party? | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
I think David Cameron is right. This is a Daily Express engineered | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
operation, I think he's right to say that it should not lead to | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
something - anything but a debate in the House of Commons. That is | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
what the 100,000 signatures get, but nothing else. If, on the other | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
hand, at some point in the next few years, during the lifetime of this | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
Government, there should be any fundamental change proposed between | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
the UK and the European Union, then there will be a referendum. That is | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
absolutely clear. I'm sure Andrew will agree, that is the right | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
approach. To have some sort of, as David Cameron said, willy nilly, | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
and I'm agreeing with him for once, referendum that would be wrong. | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
Suppose there is a three-line whip next week, would you defy it? | :30:53. | :31:00. | |
point is, we have three options, in, out or a new relationship. There is | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
thrae-line whip saying there is no referendum? I think the majority of | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
the population would like to see a new relationship with the European | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
Union based on trade and co- operation, not political union. | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
you prepared to defy the Prime Minister? We will all talk to | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
constituents this weekend and make a decision. Of course I'm prepared | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
to vote for a referendum, I said that today in the House of Commons. | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
Even if there is a three-line whip telling you not to? We don't know | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
the situation on Monday. Would you defy it? I'm sure Mr Cameron would | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
want to keep the party together. Would you defy a three-line whip? | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
would sooner a free vote. Would you defy it? I'm prepared to vote for a | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
referendum. Would you defy a three- line whip? If necessary, what is to | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
be done to obtain the referendum. You still haven't answered the | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
question? Yes, I would. That is what the British people deserve. | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
With the Prime Minister present in the chamber, you feel sufficiently | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
strongly to defy? We don't know the situation on Monday. But the mood | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
of the country and the parliamentary party, is to have a | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
referendum. I hope the Prime Minister will give us a free vote | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
on that. Edward McMillan-Scott, what does this tell us about the | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
state and the mood of the Tory Party now? And for years there has | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
been a problem in the Tory Party, it is what led to my moving out of | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
it. The increasing Euro-scepticism of the Tory Party has been marked | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
by all commentators. Andrwe Rosindell is part of that it's a | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
long standing right-winger, and adorns his dog in the Union Jack | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
and so on. Not a crime? Not at all. But it is part of a process that | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
has led the Conservative Party in the House of Commons, and in the | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
country at large, from being a broadly rational party on Europe to | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
one that is now becoming rather more extreme than it should be. I | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
think David Cameron's problem is, in Government, as Prime Minister, | :32:54. | :33:02. | |
and sharing power with the party, which has been broadly speaking | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
pro-European throughout his lifetime, not madly,. Has it | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
occurred to you why so many people in the Tory Party would want a | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
referendum is because the European Union has turned into something we | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
were never told it would be and it is a walking disaster? It is not | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
walking disaster. This weekend we have a European Summit about the | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
euro, the euro is in crisis, but it has created 14 million jobs and | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
kept inflation at 2% for ten years. It is not walking disaster. But | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
there are problems, systemic problems. We want reform, that is | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
what we should be doing. This noises off from the House of | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
Commons is not going to help in the crisis the European Union is in. We | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
want the European Union to work. David Cameron says he wants it too. | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
The mood of the country has changed dramatically. People want the | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
choice. People want to be part of Europe for trade and co-operation. | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
The Express does. They don't want to be part of political European, | :33:59. | :34:06. | |
they never wanted that. You are dancing to the UKIP tune. And the | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
Express tune? UKIP and the Express have worked together on this | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
campaign, as you know. As apologies go they tried to have it both ways, | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
Liam Fox conceded he had done wrong in blurring the distinctions | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
between professional responsibility and personal loyalties, and not | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
listening to the warnings he was given during it. He couldn't do | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
anything else after the nature of the findings against him. He did | :34:35. | :34:42. | |
point out the media hounding people close to him and throughout the | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
affair. His behaviour has cost him sis job. | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
The new stage version of the classic Yes Prime Minister, is a | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
reminder that the language of Westminster village can be | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
difficult to decipher. That might precipitate operational | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
uncertainties down the line. So that there would be a presumed | :35:07. | :35:16. | |
modicum of iron clad resipcosity that would be to everybody's | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
advantage. The corridors of power resound to rumour, who is in and | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
out, but Liam Fox's resignation has been eagerly followed by a much | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
wider audience. He made it clear today that the last few weeks have | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
been far from a laughing matter. I'm very sorry to my colleagues | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
here in the House and all those let down by the decisions I have made. | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
He said his resignation was without rancour, and it almost was. Last | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
week's media frenzy was not unprecedented, it happens. Where a | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
free press and politics collide. I believe, there was, some from | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
quarters, a personal vindictiveness, even hatred that should worry all | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
of us. The feeding frenzy could tfpblt the Parliamentary | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
Commissioner for Standards is to investigate Liam Fox, and the | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
Government is to publish a full list of ministers who have met his | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
unofficial advisor, Adam Werritty. The public's perception is the | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
politicians, not the media, are to blame. Outside the Westminster | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
bubble, the public perception is that this has impacted David | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
Cameron and the Conservatives, and it is, once again, raising the | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
issue of whether people can trust politicians. So I think that's | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
actually the key things that Cameron is going to have to now | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
address. In the House of Commons today, Ed Miliband tried to exploit | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
this? A piece of advice to the Prime Minister, this week of all | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
weeks, show a bit of humility. think we should have a bit of | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
humility from the people who gave us, cabs for hire, passports for | :36:46. | :36:53. | |
favours, mortgages for mates. Dodgy dossiers. This is a Prime | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
Minister and we see a pattern of activity with him. A pattern of | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
activity he doesn't ask the tough questions of those around him, and | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
when anything goes wrong, it is nothing to do with him. He may have | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
rattled David Cameron, but the leader of the opposition shouldn't | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
be too satisfied. At the moment Cameron has to deal with this issue | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
of trust in politicians widely, actually the whole of Westminster | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
is facing that. But Ed Miliband, currently, doesn't really hold the | :37:19. | :37:26. | |
confidence of the public that he will be any better. So who are the | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
real winners in the drama surrounding Liam Fox. Some seem to | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
regard the Civil Service as the real opposition, people don't like | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
sofa Government they like everything minuted and recorded, | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
today marked another shift in that direction. Or to put in Whitehall | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
speak, the senior echelons of the Civil Service decided to oversee | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
surveillance to people appointed to ministerial office by the Prime | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
Minister. Or something like that. Today the Government said they | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
accepted the recommendations of the Cabinet Secretary, which would | :37:59. | :38:06. | |
allow civil servants to keep a closer eye on their ministers. | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
should attend all meetings overseas. If ministers step out of line, | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
civil servants will report them to higher authorities? The permanent | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
secretary should take responsibility for-to-make sure | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
departmental procedures are followed and raising concerns with | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
ministers, advising the Cabinet Secretary, and ultimately the Prime | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
Minister, where such concerns are not resolved. A former Conservative | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
cabinet ministers, believes this place has too much power in the | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
face of unelected officials. I was a junior minister under Peter | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
Walker, who confronted this issue, and had ministerial meetings most | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
mornings without officials present. There was a degree of confrontation. | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
And the permanent secretary said to Peter, well, first, how will we | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
know what your ministers have decided if one of our people are | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
not there. Peter replied, and he said, I will tell you. That, they | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
didn't like. They fought again and he eventually turned and said I | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
will do a deal with you. If I let you have one of my officials in my | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
ministerial meetings, you will let me have one of my ministers in your | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
official meetings. Game, set and match. The Cabinet Secretary hasn't | :39:15. | :39:25. | |
:39:25. | :39:28. | ||
responded to that kind of criticism. I asked the next best thing, Sir | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
Humphrey BaAppleton? I will give you a serious answer to be | :39:31. | :39:38. | |
considered in its context. Certain proadvisors have to be considered, | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
postu lated, designated and specified, a number of | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
considerations have to be conceded sometimes. | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
Is that a yes or a no? Don't you think that yes, and no, are rather | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
broad and unspecific in their applications Mr Watson? | :39:53. | :40:01. | |
With us now are Philip Collins, who writes for the Times and a former | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
speech write Forcione Tony Blair, and my other guests. | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
How big a deal do you think this Liam Fox scandal is? Well, not many | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
things in politics really matter all that much. This problem isn't | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
one of them. I think for most people they will celebrate the | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
resignation of Liam Fox quietly at home. But it matters in this sense. | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
That anyone who is inclined to think that politicians have all got | :40:24. | :40:32. | |
their noses face down in the trough, has got ample confirmation. It is a | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
tiny little world, politicians, lobbyists and advisors, it doesn't | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
look good, does it? I think that's right. The trauma that was the | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
expenses scandal has not been digested by the political world. I | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
think they are still really in denial about how angry the public | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
were about that, still are. They are not paying enough attention. A | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
story like this reconfirms people's worst beliefs. Do you think there | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
is a possibility of the whole sleaze thing coming back? Number | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
Ten were relaxed about the story, because they thought Liam Fox was | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
so distant in Westminster terms from David Cameron, this wouldn't | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
attach personally to Cameron or his Government. Clearly the Fox | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
situation was where no other minister has a friend following him | :41:20. | :41:30. | |
around the globe like Liam Fox did. You have MPs expenses and trust in | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
politics never being lower, combine that with the incredibly tight | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
economic standards, putting a squeeze on people's living | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
standards and an anti-politics mood out there. It will only take one or | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
two more cases like this for a real public backlash against it. That is | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
the danger for the coalition. dangerous for the Government f they | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
allow the idea to take hold that they play by different rules from | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
the rest of us, and they can carry on doing whatever they like. Liam | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
Fox's statement today exhibited the exact arrogance and detatchment | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
that got him into trouble in the first place. This if that attaches | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
to the Government they could be in trouble. It could snowball, if it | :42:16. | :42:24. | |
remains an incident in its own light that it is goodbye Liam Fox. | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
I thought that Ed Miliband led on PMQs, and David Cameron was | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
dismissive of him and effective. There was one moment when you saw a | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
tremor of fear pass through the front bench on the Tories, when Ed | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
Miliband said to David Cameron, by being different did you mean your | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
press officer would get arrested and your Defence Secretary had to | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
resign. You saw them all leaning back and going crikey, that is the | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
danger. On the Werritty story there are these strange echos of the | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
Coulson story, the peculiar idea that if you are loyal to your | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
friends, that is a higher good than being transparent and whiter than | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
white. Let's move on to the question about the relationship | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
between Government and Whitehall. Because Liam Fox went into the | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
Ministry of Defence, determined to sort out the Ministry of Defence, | :43:13. | :43:21. | |
and in fact t sorted him out? - it sorted him out? Or didn't. I think | :43:21. | :43:30. | |
he sorted himself out. He has lined up a whole series of culprits for | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
this and the one person he hasn't lined up is himself. The Civil | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
Service emerges from the whole thing stronger doesn't it? Ever so | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
slightly. The Government have slightly got themselves to blame | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
for this. The Brown Government did the same thing. When you denigrate | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
political advisors you leave yourself open to this kind of thing. | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
Special advisors are a special thing in Government, they do | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
something quite different from unelected officials. Saying we are | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
part of cleaning up politics and not having special advisors you | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
leave yourself open to this kind of thing. They are slightly more | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
powerful than they were, the civil servants, not especially so. | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
agree. This Cameron idea of limenting the number of SP - | :44:18. | :44:25. | |
limiting the number of SPADs. Special advisors? It has left Nick | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
Clegg unequipped in the Cabinet Office. And Liam Fox needed more | :44:30. | :44:38. | |
people around him. It is not transparent, at least if you have | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
enough political staff in each ministerial office, or Secretary of | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
State, rather, at least you noi who is doing what and everything has to | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
be transparent, and funding issues don't come into it as they have in | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
this story. Part of the problem for the Liberal Democrats is they | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
haven't had their own special advisors in Government. Every | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
department with a Tory Secretary of State. There was a story when one | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
minister called up 9 special advisor saying these stories keep | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
appearing and I don't know where they are coming from, and they came | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
from the advisor. It is a real mistake this, to try to limit the | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
number of special advisor, they do something important and necessary. | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
We should also point out that Adam Werritty was doing something not | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
necessary, which is running, essentially, a fanciful parallel | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
national security policy. There are still lots of questions to be | :45:33. | :45:41. | |
answered about this? Many, many. The Lyons Inquiry will be important. | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
That confusion and unanswered questions makes the issues we were | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
talking about earlier to do with public perceptions worse. The | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
confusion, it looks like such a mess. Fox was the opposite of pen | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
tent in the House today, I thought. I thought - pen tent in the House | :45:57. | :46:04. | |
today, I thought he did himself no favours. Not to be there for the | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
George Young response, and then to give your statement and be so | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
unapologetic. That went down bad with colleagues. There was not a | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
feeling among Tory MPs that he came and gave the speech they wanted. | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
They give the passive, the Ministerial Code has been breached, | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
rather than I broke it. All the people who supported him | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
vociferously last week, it puts them in a difficult position? | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
people who supported him last week were not natural Liam Fox allies, | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
they were people the leadership had asked to do a job. One of the | :46:40. | :46:47. | |
misapprehensions about Liam Fox is that there is a bunch of loyal | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
backbenchers rallying to him. After 2005 and his failure to win the | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
Tory leadership, Liam Fox has spent remarkably little time cultivating | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
backbenches, he doesn't go back to a ready-made group. On the whole | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
Europe question, Liam Fox is nowhere to be seen. It is not like | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
Tory backbenchers will be waiting to see which way he comes down on | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
the EU referendum question, one way or the other. He's not the force | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
people think he is on the backbenches. Gavin will be here | :47:16. | :47:26. | |
:47:26. | :47:52. | ||
A cold one tonight. It means most of us will have a frosty start | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
tomorrow morning. Quite a few of us will have a sunny morning. However, | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
through the day, steadily it will cloud over with outbreaks of rain | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
for Northern Ireland. Most of Scotland by the afternoon. Some of | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
the rain dribbling into northern England. Dry and bright. Most of | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
the Midlands and the south-east having a fine day. After a cold | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
start, by the afternoon, with light winds in the sunshine, not feeling | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
too bad, temperatures 12-13. Clouding over some what for South- | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
West England and steadily through the day t will cloud over across | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
Wales as well. Eye vently some light rain dribble - eventually | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
light rain dribbling into the south west. By lunchtime it will be damp, | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
and the afternoon staying grey with further outbreaks of rain. The same | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
for the west of Scotland. Further east some sunshine but rain late in | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
the day. Friday promises further cloud and rain across Northern | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
Ireland, parts of Scotland, in the south most of England and Wales | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
will have a dry day on Friday, and you will notice the temperatures a | :48:54. | :49:04. | |
:49:04. | :49:05. | ||
little bit higher with sunshine. So Friday it is a bit of a north-south | :49:05. | :49:10. |