18/10/2011 Newsnight


18/10/2011

Who are the protesters who have set up camp near St Paul's cathedral and what do they think their campaign will achieve? Jeremy Paxman presents.


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Transcript


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If we told you five years ago that inflation would hit a 19-year high,

:00:08.:00:12.

the Bank of England would respond by printing still more money, all

:00:12.:00:15.

to the cheers of a Conservative Chancellor, you would either say we

:00:15.:00:21.

had gone mad or the world had. But that's where we are. The Government

:00:21.:00:28.

doesn't care about you if you have saved or done the right thing. It

:00:28.:00:31.

has, when push comes to shove, it will take the money away from you,

:00:31.:00:35.

and give it to other people who they decide needs it more. The man

:00:35.:00:40.

from the Treasury is here to defend himself. In the tented city in the

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heart of the City, the talk is of a long drawn-out occupation.

:00:45.:00:49.

Camping on concrete is the new form of global protest. What do these

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protestors want? The fame Micker, Michael Moore,

:00:53.:00:59.

joins us from New York, to - film maker, Michael Moore, joins us from

:00:59.:01:02.

New York to tell us what Occupy Wall Street is all about.

:01:02.:01:07.

Gus O'Donnell, stands in judgment on Liam Fox and finds him wanting.

:01:07.:01:11.

The Israelis swap 1,000 prisoners for a single one of their soldiers.

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What does the arithmetic tell us? After a slap-up dinner, the Booker

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Prize is announced. Julian Barnes for The Sense Of An Ending. We will

:01:23.:01:33.
:01:33.:01:33.

be talking to Julian Barnes. Any money you have, any debts you

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have are worth quite a bit less than they were a year ago. The

:01:37.:01:42.

latest inflation figures show it is running at 5.2%, way ahead of the

:01:42.:01:47.

rate at which wages are rising. As a result? Misery. The Bank of

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England's job, by the way, is still formally to keep inflation at 2%.

:01:53.:01:58.

Our economics editor, Paul Mason, is here. These are pretty bad

:01:58.:02:03.

figures? 5.2% CPI inflation is the highest for 20 years. We will see

:02:03.:02:06.

in main the detailed impact it is having on real people's life. For

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now, let's just consider the political problems it creates. They

:02:10.:02:15.

are two fold, first of all, it is helping, this level of inflation is

:02:15.:02:21.

helping to push the recovery off track. Mervyn King, the governor of

:02:21.:02:24.

the Bank of England, admitted today in a speech that it is off track.

:02:24.:02:27.

It is taking spending power out of the economy, at a rate, which I

:02:27.:02:31.

don't think the Government or George Osborne, understood would

:02:31.:02:36.

happen when they set out a year ago on the austerity plan. Problem

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number one, it is hampering the recovery. Problem number two,

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closer to home for the politicians, is it is hitting the middle-classes.

:02:43.:02:48.

If you consider 5.2% CPI means pensions and benefit also go up

:02:48.:02:53.

next year by 5.2%, wages are rising at about 2%, for those in

:02:53.:02:58.

employment. Transport costs, 12%, energy costs 18%. Now Mervyn King

:02:58.:03:02.

says, in the long-term, it will probably fall back, and our real

:03:02.:03:07.

worry is we get a collapse in the economy, not a rip roaring

:03:08.:03:13.

inflationary problem. But whoever invented the term "squeezed middle",

:03:13.:03:19.

it is skweegs the middle. We have been - squeezing the middle. We

:03:19.:03:23.

have been looking at where the inflation is coming from and who is

:03:23.:03:26.

affected most. Included in the basket of goods

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used to measure CPI inflation, is daily cup of frothy coffee. Even

:03:31.:03:38.

though the cost of our skinny mugochino is going up, we are

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trying to stay calm and hang on to our little treats. Coffee is not

:03:42.:03:48.

the only thing going up. Energy prices have risen 18.3%, after the

:03:48.:03:51.

big three raised gas and electricity prices three times this

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year. Anyone commuting to work on anything other than two legs will

:03:54.:03:58.

have noticed the rising cost of doing so. Transport is up nearly

:03:58.:04:03.

13%. Supermarket shoppers will tell you that the bill at the till is up,

:04:03.:04:08.

6% according to the ONS. While all these things have been going up,

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average earnings haven't kept pace, they are up by only 1.8% over the

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past year. I think there is a real issue about

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the fact that real disposable incomes are being reduced, first

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because of tax increases and then because of the price increases we

:04:23.:04:28.

are seeing now. Which means the take-home pay is considerably

:04:28.:04:31.

reduced. What can people do about it? They will not spend as much.

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They could dip into savings and carry on spending, they are all

:04:34.:04:38.

worried about the debt and they are trying to repay debt, as we know,

:04:38.:04:41.

over the last couple of years. Of course, if they are not going to go

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out and spend, and instead they save. There is a serious issue

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about what happens in terms of the impact on the retail sector and

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loads of other sectors relying on the consumer going out and spending.

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There is a school of thought that high inflation is tolerated by

:04:58.:05:02.

policy makers like central banks and Governments, because it is the

:05:02.:05:06.

only way of distributing debt reduction evenly throughout the

:05:06.:05:10.

economy, without the political pain of raising taxes or cutting

:05:10.:05:15.

spending. So now that we have high inflation, who the real winners are

:05:16.:05:20.

and losers? The main winners are those who owe

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money. Inflation erodes away debt. So mortgage holders and big debtors

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benefit, especially if interest rates are at a record low. And

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because the Government has a massive debt mountain, it gains too.

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Of the losers, today's RPI inflation, as opposed to CPI, came

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in at 5.6%, that means retailers will have to pay 5.6% higher

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business rates from next year. But the biggest losers from high

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inflation, will doubtless be savers and pensioners. Although the state

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pension will rise a bit faster next year, their savings, usually a

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bigger sum, will be eroded away by the same amount. Ironically, as

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well as being a winner, the Government is also a looser, as it

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has - loser, as it has to pay the higher benefits. I would advise the

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current Government not to ignore the needs of pensioners. And to

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take their suffering seriously. Older people, older generations,

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not just those already retired, but now increasingly those coming up

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for retirement, are in deep trouble. And through no fault of their own.

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Most of them have saved, tried to look after themselves, have been

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prudent, and everyone else is seeing that what's happened is,

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despite the fact that they have done all that, they are not doing

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well. The message seems to be, the Government doesn't care about you

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if you save, the Government doesn't care about you if you have done the

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right thing. But is today's high inflation figure as bad as the

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headline numbers suggest? If you look at the official measure of

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inflation. CPI - If you look at the official

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measure of inflation, CPI, it is up and twice its target since the

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start of the year. If you strip out indirect taxes such as the rise in

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VAT and excise duties, the resulting inflation rate, known by

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the boffins as CPIY, has been much closer to the target 2% over the

:07:14.:07:17.

past two years. And the rate at which average wages have been

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rising is also much lower than the headline CPI rate. When inflation

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is largely imported, it is much more volatile and much less easy to

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predict, than when it is dependant on domestic factors. When it is

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domestic wages you can make a pretty good guess at inflation and

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how high it will be. With commodity prices they go all over the place.

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In these circumstances anyone who thinks they are certain about what

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is going to happen is probably telling you a lie. There is a not

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so cheery economic barometer, called the "misery index", linking

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inflation with unemployment. It says for every 1% rise in

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unemployment, it equals a 1.7% rise in inflation. It basically says

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people tolerate inflation a lot better than unemployment. The

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problem is, they are both going up. As inflation - has inflation peaked

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for now? Probably. That is what most economists think. The economy

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may have to chug along for a bit longer in these straitened times,

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until the wind blows in our favour. Here now to discuss today's figures

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are the Treasury minister, David Gauke, and The Shadow Line dough

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chief Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Are you going to sit

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there and say there is nothing the Government can do about it?

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recognise inflation is high and having an effect on people's living

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standards, that is why we have reduced fuel duty, and petrol is 6p

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a litre cheaper than it was. It is why we are freezing the council tax

:08:53.:08:55.

and increased the personal allowance ahead of inflation. It is

:08:55.:09:01.

a difficult time. We don't deny that. We have limited room for

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manoeuvre because of the state of the public finances. You have done

:09:04.:09:07.

what you can, and you have failed to get it very good? It is a

:09:07.:09:12.

difficult time. We accept that, but the fact is, we have public

:09:12.:09:15.

finances in a mess, we have inherited that, we are trying to

:09:15.:09:19.

get our way out of that. We don't have a lot of money to throw at the

:09:19.:09:23.

problem. If it is true, as everybody says, that much of the

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driver of this is higher energy costs and higher food costs, there

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isn't really that much they can do about it? Well, we have now the

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highest inflation rate in Europe, apart from Estonia, so there are

:09:35.:09:40.

particular things going on here in Britain, it is not just imported

:09:40.:09:44.

inflation from overseas. It is little relief for pensioners and

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families right now to think that inflation may come down in the

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future, when they are struggling right now with rising food prices

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and energy bills. There are things that the Government can do, for

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example, Mervyn King has said, that the main drivers of inflation,

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right now, are the VAT increases and the increases in energy prices.

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Labour have suggested a reduction temporarily in VAT to help families

:10:07.:10:11.

and pensioners, �450 extra for an average family. If Mervyn King says

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he expects the rate of inflation drops next year, what is the point

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of a temporary cut in VAT now? know thainflaigs has overshot both

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the Bank of England's - that inflation has overshot both the

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economists and Bank of England's forecasts over the last few months.

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But if you cut it it is immediate money into people's pockets. There

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are many people and pensioners struggling to make ends meet, and a

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cut in VAT will make a big difference. You have a feeling a

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different analysis, - uch a different analysis to the Bank of

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England, you don't think inflation will drop next year? I hope it will,

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but for families suffering now. disagree with Mervyn King? No, I'm

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saying for families right now struggling with rising prices and

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many of us turning our heating on this week, energy prices going up,

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and pensioners feeling the squeeze as the winter nights draw in. A

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temporary relief and a cut in VAT can do that. You expect a drop in

:11:12.:11:17.

inflation next year? That is what the Bank of England predicts and

:11:17.:11:22.

most commentators, the IOF and the FOCD, they think so. What is the

:11:22.:11:27.

guess in the Treasury l it drop next year or not? The position the

:11:28.:11:30.

independent office of budget responsibility has taken, is

:11:30.:11:35.

broadly in line with the Bank of England. So, yes, there is an

:11:35.:11:38.

expectation that inflation will drop next year. On the specific

:11:38.:11:42.

point of benefits, linked to the rate of inflation in this set of

:11:42.:11:45.

figures, that would mean if inflation drops next year that

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those on benefits will get some sort of gain from the fact that it

:11:49.:11:55.

is pegged to this number. There is talk of you trying to peg it to

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some other date maybe in the new year or some sort of average, are

:11:59.:12:03.

you going to do that? The September number, which is what we have today,

:12:03.:12:07.

is the number which is used. will stick to that? That is the

:12:07.:12:10.

policy. You are sticking to it? That is the policy, it remains the

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policy. You will stick to it? the policy, and that's where it is.

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Do you think it is fair to working people? Well, I think it is a

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difficult time all round. We don't deny that. That wasn't my question,

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is it fair? I think we don't want to, we heard in the report talk

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about the impact of pensions. Pensions are hit by inflation, we

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don't want that to happen. We need to look in the surround. We don't

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want to try to get the deficit down on the backs of the poorests.

:12:46.:12:54.

is going to happen. You have told us twice, it is the the policy. The

:12:54.:12:57.

benefits will go up at the time that inflation goes down? Let's see

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when we are nearer the time as far as where inflation is going to be.

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We do want to protect pensioners who have seen inflation go up.

:13:09.:13:12.

you think that is fair to working people? Let's have a look at the

:13:12.:13:15.

circumstances at the time. You can have a view on whether it is fair

:13:15.:13:20.

or not, without waiting for the circumstances at the time?

:13:20.:13:23.

depend what happens with various trends as far as inflation is

:13:23.:13:26.

concerned. The important thing is that we have, and I just want to

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come back to something that Rachel was saying, the idea that we can

:13:30.:13:35.

just cut VAT and that would be just a win-win, we have to bear in mind,

:13:35.:13:39.

if we lack credibility in our fiscal plans, what you would see is

:13:39.:13:43.

interest rates going up. We have one of the lowest interest rates in

:13:43.:13:48.

Europe. As a consequence, that has a squeeze on mortgage s. What you

:13:48.:13:52.

see at the moment is the Government borrowing �46 billion more over

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this Parliament, because the cuts that we are seeing are resulting in

:13:56.:14:00.

higher unemployment and lower growth. The Institute of Fiscal

:14:00.:14:06.

Studies have said today that the increase in inflation will mean

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�1.8 billion extra this year on benefits payouts. It is clear the

:14:11.:14:14.

Government's policy isn't working at the moment in bringing down the

:14:14.:14:21.

budget deficit. There is a slowdown in every country you look at. The

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Americans had a fiscal stimulus and a lot of money thrown at it, their

:14:24.:14:28.

growth is lower than our's. There is a slowdown across the world,

:14:28.:14:33.

there is a crisis in the eurozone, that is damaging confidence

:14:33.:14:37.

everywhere. In the past nine months the British economy hasn't grown at

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all. The only economy to have grown more slowly is Japan, hit by an

:14:41.:14:45.

earthquake. The only countries in the economy growing less slowly are

:14:45.:14:48.

Greece and Portugal. There is something about the economic policy

:14:48.:14:51.

being pursued here that is hitting growth and jobs and pushing up

:14:51.:14:54.

inflation at the same time? We can play the game of choosing a

:14:54.:14:58.

particular period, and if one looks over six months the answers are

:14:58.:15:04.

different. The fact is, there is a slowdown across the eurozone, in

:15:04.:15:09.

the UK and the US. And the Government's policy hasn't changed

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at all to changing global circumstances.

:15:11.:15:14.

Many of the drones pouring in and out of the City of London this

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morning and evening had to survive the scorn of protesters, camped out

:15:17.:15:21.

in front of St Paul's. They are part of a movement, it would be

:15:21.:15:27.

wrong to call it an organisation, which began with the campaign to

:15:27.:15:32.

occupy Wall Street in New York, it has spread to other cities, where

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citizens have found their lives poorer by the greed of bankers and

:15:35.:15:39.

their friends. What, apart from venting anger, are they trying to

:15:39.:15:45.

It did not start with Wall Street. All this year protestors have been

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occupying squares, in Cairo, in Athens, and in Spain. The whole

:15:52.:15:57.

world is watching! But the Wall Street occupation, and the

:15:57.:16:01.

associated protests, have now given birth to a worldwide movement. The

:16:01.:16:08.

protestors claim to be the 9%, as opposed to the 1% who - 99%, as

:16:08.:16:15.

opposed to the 1%, who they say own most of America's wealth.

:16:15.:16:20.

It is this that struck a chord with the environmental groups, the trade

:16:20.:16:25.

unions have backed it and politicians noticed it.

:16:25.:16:29.

protestors are giving voice to a more broad based frustration about

:16:29.:16:34.

how our financial system works. In London, since Saturday,

:16:34.:16:38.

protestors have been camped outside St Paul's Cathedral. They include

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students, environmentalists, the guy fauks masks warn by the Hacker

:16:46.:16:50.

Group, anonymous. The days are filled with meetings and

:16:50.:16:54.

discussions, the aspirations, huge. Why are they here? Because they

:16:54.:16:58.

feel powerless, politicians are ignoring their demand, people here

:16:58.:17:03.

no know the cuts aren't necessary, they know the banks gambled and

:17:03.:17:08.

lost in �850 billion pumped into the banks, it is unfair for us, the

:17:08.:17:11.

general population to be paying that money back by losing our

:17:11.:17:17.

services, our jobs, by losing our welfare benefits. People here know

:17:17.:17:21.

it is wrong. What is new about the movement here and across the world,

:17:21.:17:25.

is its intention lack of connection with mainstream politics. Faced

:17:25.:17:28.

with this global occupation movement, what the mainstream media

:17:28.:17:32.

and politicians tend to ask is what do they want from us? For many

:17:32.:17:36.

people here, that is the wrong question, many of the protestors

:17:36.:17:40.

think they are here to create something completely alternative,

:17:40.:17:44.

and separate from the political processes they think have failed.

:17:44.:17:49.

There is a cry sifs political representation. People have seen -

:17:49.:17:52.

crisis of political representation. People have seen time and time

:17:52.:17:55.

again that their needs and interests are not being represented

:17:55.:17:59.

at the level of state. And to the contrary, the austerity measures

:17:59.:18:03.

being pushed through are harming them and taking away their

:18:03.:18:06.

livelihoods. Therefore, that is what the crisis of political

:18:06.:18:10.

representation is. They have seen the interests being offended and

:18:10.:18:14.

pursued at the level of state are those of a minority with access to

:18:14.:18:20.

wealth and power. If people want to show by silent clapping if they

:18:20.:18:25.

agree. To the uninitiated the methods look strange, and some

:18:25.:18:29.

worry the counter culture is too weird to involve the majority of

:18:29.:18:33.

problem. The other thing is, as the nights get cold, how long do you

:18:33.:18:36.

stay and how do you know you have won. Joining us now from New York,

:18:36.:18:40.

the film maker and author, Michael Moore. Michael Moore, how

:18:40.:18:46.

significant do you think these protests are? I think they are

:18:46.:18:49.

quite significant. I think this is something that is certainly

:18:49.:18:54.

spreading all over the United States. There are new occupy

:18:54.:18:57.

movements beginning in towns and cities every day. Now it has spread

:18:57.:19:01.

across the world. It has really touched a nerve. What your

:19:01.:19:04.

correspondent said about, that it may seem weird, because you have a

:19:04.:19:11.

lot of young people there, in the park. It is only weird in the sense

:19:11.:19:16.

that all movements for justice begin with people who are not, who

:19:16.:19:22.

are willing to be out there on the edge a bit. Somebody in the

:19:22.:19:25.

feminist movement burned their first bra and that shocked

:19:25.:19:28.

everybody, and everybody thought that was weird and crazy, then we

:19:28.:19:33.

had a feminist movement, and things got a bit better. That's how things

:19:33.:19:40.

go. When women wanted the right to vote, 100 or so years ago, talk

:19:40.:19:42.

about being weird. They were completely ostracised, everybody

:19:42.:19:46.

who starts a movement is talked about in this way, this is how they

:19:46.:19:52.

are being talked about now. It is much, much larger. In the campaign

:19:52.:19:58.

for woman's sufferage, the methods and tactics, the objective was to

:19:58.:20:02.

get votes for women. It is unclear, in this case what the objective is,

:20:02.:20:05.

what it would take to get the campaign called off. Do you

:20:05.:20:13.

understand what it is for? Yes, I do. It is, there are a whole bunch

:20:13.:20:16.

of reasons that lead back to the greed of an economic system that is

:20:16.:20:22.

built around n this case, in our country, around Wall Street. People

:20:22.:20:25.

are fed up. We have 50 million people in the United States that

:20:25.:20:30.

have no health care. 50 million. We have millions who have lost their

:20:30.:20:36.

homes, due to foreclosure. We have 46.2 million living in poverty.

:20:36.:20:45.

That is at least 13-18 million kids every night going to bed

:20:45.:20:49.

malnourished. People, millions of people have been abused by the

:20:49.:20:52.

system and they have had it. I think it is enough. Remember, we

:20:53.:20:57.

are in the first 32 days of this movement. It is enough that people

:20:57.:21:01.

have just gotten up off the sofa and gotten involved. It is enough

:21:01.:21:04.

that people have pushed through their despair to say, you know what,

:21:04.:21:08.

I'm not going to sit by and do nothing. First you have to get up

:21:08.:21:12.

and move. That is what people have done, we are in the first phase now.

:21:12.:21:17.

This will grow into something with various political demands to up end

:21:17.:21:23.

this system that has caused so much pain for so many people. You say up

:21:23.:21:28.

end this system, is the objective to reform capitalism or end it?

:21:28.:21:31.

depends on who you ask. As far as I'm concerned it needs to be ended.

:21:31.:21:36.

It is an evil, evil system. I'm talking about 21st century

:21:36.:21:40.

capitalism. I don't want a lecture about what Adam Smith intended or

:21:40.:21:44.

whatever. I'm talking about a system now that is set up so that

:21:45.:21:50.

the richest 1% get 40% of the pie. A system where the richest 400

:21:50.:21:55.

Americans have more wealth than 150 Americans combined. What do you

:21:55.:22:02.

want to replace it with? Well, it is not about replacing it with

:22:02.:22:06.

something, or going back. Here is what is confuse, especially some

:22:06.:22:10.

people in the media, - confusing, especially some people in the media,

:22:10.:22:16.

they are thinking why aren't they joining in the political system

:22:16.:22:20.

that has always been done? But it hasn't worked. They are not

:22:20.:22:23.

interested in pass ago bill in the Senate or a Congressman saying the

:22:24.:22:28.

right things to them. You have told us this will end up with political

:22:28.:22:31.

change. How will you get political change if not by political action?

:22:31.:22:38.

We will have to see what happens, right. You are watching the birth

:22:38.:22:41.

of a massive worldwide movement against the banks, against Wall

:22:41.:22:44.

Street, against the City. People literally have had it, they will

:22:44.:22:51.

not take it any more. And things are going to happen. We just don't

:22:51.:22:54.

know it now because we are really in the actual birth of this

:22:54.:22:57.

movement. So, what do you imagine will

:22:57.:23:01.

replace capitalism at the end of all this, if the movement is

:23:01.:23:07.

successful? I think what people would like is a democratic economic

:23:07.:23:12.

system. If we say we live in democracies, we should have

:23:12.:23:16.

economic systems where the people have a say in how they are set up

:23:16.:23:20.

and run. The pay should be divided fairly amongst the citizens, and

:23:20.:23:24.

those who have more are taxed more, so that they have to pull what is

:23:24.:23:28.

their fair share of the weight. That is ultimately what people

:23:28.:23:33.

would hope. You know, when I was a kid, people really weren't mad at

:23:33.:23:36.

rich people, because the rich people built the factories and it

:23:37.:23:41.

was kind of like, OK, they gave my dad a job, now we get to have a

:23:41.:23:46.

house and car, and the kids get to go to college. That is all gone now.

:23:47.:23:52.

There was never really enough for the rich, they had to keep, they

:23:53.:23:57.

wanted more and more. Enough is the dirtiest word in capitalism. We

:23:57.:24:01.

need an economic system that is fair, just and democratic, that is

:24:01.:24:06.

not what capitalism is now. I'm afraid this isn't just me saying

:24:06.:24:10.

this, the people have had it. They want something new, and maybe

:24:10.:24:13.

something new will have to be invented out of this.

:24:13.:24:17.

What would it take to persuade you that it was not necessary to have

:24:17.:24:27.
:24:27.:24:29.

this campaign any longer? You mean what would need to happen to stop

:24:29.:24:34.

me occupying Wall Street? Yes. of a number of things. A fair tax

:24:34.:24:38.

rate so that the rich pay their fair taxes. Bring back the controls

:24:39.:24:42.

and regulations on Wall Street, so they won't be able to do what they

:24:42.:24:47.

did in 2008 and before that again. There is a whole bunch of specifics

:24:47.:24:54.

that I would be happy to see happen. But ultimately, I don't think that,

:24:54.:24:58.

we have a political system where essentially now our candidates can

:24:58.:25:03.

legally be bought by billionares, money has to be completely removed

:25:03.:25:08.

from our political system. There is a declaration, if you go on-line to

:25:08.:25:11.

the Occupy Wall Street, there is a declaration that the general

:25:11.:25:15.

assembly voted on down there. You can see 19 or 20 different points

:25:15.:25:18.

that people are concerned about. It is not that people haven't

:25:18.:25:22.

expressed these concerns. It is just that it is not like the old

:25:22.:25:26.

way, where it is let's get somebody elected President, let's get that

:25:26.:25:30.

bill passed in Congress. We are way beyond that now. We are not into

:25:30.:25:34.

fixing or reforming or tweaking. This is simply has to end. The way

:25:35.:25:41.

of doing business, as we know t has to come to an end.

:25:41.:25:46.

It is only nine and a bit pages long what it lacks in length it

:25:46.:25:48.

makes up for in strength. The Cabinet Secretary's report into the

:25:49.:25:55.

relationship which led to fox folk fox's ris nation last Friday, as

:25:55.:25:59.

Defence Secretary, is pret - Liam Fox's resignation last Friday as

:25:59.:26:02.

Defence Secretary is pretty straight forward. He was told of

:26:02.:26:07.

the risks to the relationship and he chose to ignore the warning. We

:26:07.:26:12.

watched the birth of today's report. Waiting for the judgment of God, in

:26:12.:26:17.

Whitehall, God denotes the initials of Gus O'Donnell, the head of the

:26:17.:26:25.

Civil Service. As close to an ominousent being as any mere mortal

:26:25.:26:29.

could be. It is him sitting on in wise consideration of the since of

:26:29.:26:34.

Liam Fox. He took his time, and some began to doubt his existence,

:26:34.:26:40.

some wondered if Oliver Letwin had put the report in bin. When it

:26:40.:26:45.

finally came it was not handed down on tablets of stone but it is clear

:26:45.:26:52.

cut. This report by Gus O'Donnell is so cit calf Liam Fox, - cil

:26:52.:26:57.

critical of Liam Fox, if he had not resigned when he did he would have

:26:57.:27:03.

to know. We knew plenty about the case. Liam Fox's former flatmate,

:27:03.:27:10.

Adam Werritty, met him on 22 occasions in the MoD building and

:27:10.:27:14.

17 overseas. Sometimes the President of Sri Lanka was present

:27:14.:27:18.

and others. Adam Werritty was funded by rich donors keen to voice

:27:18.:27:24.

their policy concerns. At least one donor, Jon Moulton, suggested that

:27:24.:27:28.

Liam Fox himself solicited these donations. When Dr Liam Fox

:27:28.:27:32.

resigned last Friday, it was because he knew today's report was

:27:32.:27:37.

critical of his conduct. The report concludes that security had been

:27:37.:27:42.

compromised. Not national security, but the disclosure outside MoD of

:27:42.:27:47.

diary details about future visits overseas posed a degree of security

:27:47.:27:52.

risk, not only to Dr Fox, but also the accompanying official party.

:27:52.:27:56.

Sir Gus goes on to condemn Liam Fox's frequent meetings with

:27:56.:27:59.

foreign dignitaries and contacts with Werritty present and no civil

:27:59.:28:04.

servant. This, says Sir Gus, should not have been allowed to happen.

:28:04.:28:08.

The report concludes that the contact damaged the proper conduct

:28:08.:28:12.

of Government business. Dr Fox's close and visible association with

:28:12.:28:17.

Mr Werritty in the UK and overseas, he says, and the latter's use of

:28:17.:28:20.

misleading business cards, has fuelled a general impression that

:28:20.:28:24.

Mr Werritty spoke on behalf of the UK Government. The risks of Dr

:28:24.:28:28.

Fox's association with Mr Werritty were raised with Dr Fox by both his

:28:28.:28:33.

private office and the permanent secretary. Dr Fox took action in

:28:33.:28:37.

respect to the business cards, but clearly made a judgment that his

:28:37.:28:42.

contact with Mr Werritty should continue. It is obviously a serious

:28:42.:28:48.

situation where a minister of his experience did breach the

:28:48.:28:57.

Ministerial Code. And also, put the security of other ministers and

:28:57.:29:03.

officials at possible risk, because Adam Werritty had access to his

:29:03.:29:07.

diary. We have had the official report, the minister has already

:29:07.:29:10.

resigned, surely an end to the matter? Possibly not. For a start,

:29:10.:29:17.

this afternoon the speaker, the Commons Speaker gave a powerful

:29:17.:29:23.

hint he's minded to go with Labour's question of an urgent

:29:23.:29:28.

matter request tomorrow. Labour suggesting this goes beyond

:29:28.:29:32.

one minister and one so-called advisor? David Cameron said last

:29:32.:29:36.

week he would answer all unanswered questions, clearly it hasn't. In

:29:36.:29:41.

terms of the relationships that Mr Werritty and Dr Fox had with

:29:41.:29:47.

funders, and also organisations such as Atlantic scam bridge, which

:29:47.:29:51.

also involved at - Atlantic Bridge, which involved at least four

:29:51.:29:53.

serving ministers. Tomorrow there will be a Government statement on

:29:53.:29:57.

the report in the Commons. It won't be the Prime Minister making it.

:29:57.:30:01.

But the leader of the Commons, Sir Tony Young. There are questions

:30:01.:30:05.

about other ministers, and whether this network of contacts around

:30:05.:30:10.

this organisation, Atlantic Bridge, raises any more questions about

:30:10.:30:13.

undue influence on ministers. Are you clear in your mind that there

:30:13.:30:16.

hasn't been that? One of the recommendations in the report is

:30:16.:30:20.

the moment you become a minister, in addition to declaring that your

:30:20.:30:26.

financial interests, you should declare the sort of friendships and

:30:26.:30:30.

acquaintances mentioned in the report. Anyone with an interest in

:30:31.:30:34.

policy and contacts revealed to the permanent secretary. If we

:30:34.:30:37.

implement that recommendation, and the Prime Minister has said he's

:30:37.:30:40.

minded to, that will address the particular issue you have just

:30:40.:30:43.

talked about. On a question of process, is it right you will be

:30:43.:30:49.

talking about this tomorrow in the Commons, if there is an urgent

:30:49.:30:52.

question? The Prime Minister has asked me to make a statement giving

:30:52.:30:56.

their response to this particular report. As leader of the House I

:30:56.:30:59.

have a broad range of responsibility, the Prime Minister

:30:59.:31:09.

has asked me to discharge this one. This is putting your broad range of

:31:09.:31:16.

responsibility at its broadest? Liam Fox dismissed two of the

:31:16.:31:21.

serious allegations against him, that he made money, or jeopardised

:31:21.:31:27.

national security in his relationship with Werritty. God is

:31:27.:31:33.

expecting to be receive with heads slightly bowed, but many don't

:31:33.:31:35.

believe this is the end of the matter.

:31:35.:31:39.

My guests are with me now. This is damming report, and yet

:31:39.:31:44.

last week you were all defending Liam Fox? He resigned, because he

:31:44.:31:49.

knew he had broken the Ministerial Code. You were defending him up to

:31:49.:31:53.

that point I don't think people were defending him to that point.

:31:53.:31:58.

What people were saying about Liam Fox was that he had done a very

:31:58.:32:01.

good job as the Defence Secretary. He had clearly made very serious

:32:01.:32:04.

errors of judgment, and then the next question to be asked, which is

:32:04.:32:09.

what the report was all about, was had he broken the Ministerial Code.

:32:09.:32:15.

He knew he obviously had, he paid the ultimate price for making

:32:15.:32:18.

serious errors of judgment. No financial impriority, no threat to

:32:18.:32:20.

national security, that is important as well. This isn't an

:32:20.:32:24.

end to the matter as far as you and your colleagues seem to think?

:32:24.:32:27.

report would have been unsurviveable if Liam Fox was still

:32:27.:32:33.

in a job. He jumped before he was pushed. He acted honourably?

:32:33.:32:39.

doesn't touch pont issue of money or the issue - touch upon the issue

:32:39.:32:44.

of money, and which other people met Dr Fox. Two members of the

:32:44.:32:49.

Government, two defence ministers met Mr Werritty. We can understand

:32:49.:32:53.

why Liam Fox let Mr Werritty, because he's his flatmate and best

:32:53.:32:59.

man. What bu what are other ministers doing meeting a shadowy

:32:59.:33:04.

figure, it is perplexing. What do you think? I don't think it is

:33:04.:33:08.

finished. Were I advising the Prime Minister, I would say you need

:33:08.:33:11.

further processes here. Perhaps Gus O'Donnell should be asked to

:33:11.:33:14.

broaden his inquiry with a different remit. Because there is

:33:14.:33:18.

the question of ministers, to which reference has already been made,

:33:18.:33:22.

and also there is this general question about access. One of the

:33:22.:33:25.

things which I believe is we ought to have a register of lobbyists.

:33:25.:33:30.

But, of course, Mr Werritty wasn't a lobbyist, and therefore would not

:33:30.:33:35.

have appeared on that register. We need a different system, which

:33:35.:33:39.

allows both transparency and scrutiny. The Liberal Democrats are

:33:39.:33:43.

calling for the extension of Gus O'Donnell's investigation? I am.

:33:43.:33:48.

You are a Lib Dem? You were leader once? You are not an insignificant

:33:48.:33:51.

voice, I would imagine? That is kind of you to say. But if I may

:33:51.:33:58.

coin a phrase, I'm not an advisor to the Prime Minister. It is not

:33:58.:34:02.

your formal policy? It was our policy in the general election.

:34:02.:34:08.

is in the coalition agreement that we will have this register of

:34:08.:34:14.

lobbyists. He make as good point. It is taking a long time to get to?

:34:14.:34:18.

The transparency last been put into place, ministers have to give

:34:18.:34:21.

details of their expenses and foreign trips, and meetings they

:34:21.:34:26.

have. All of these things, which was not introduced by the last

:34:26.:34:30.

Government. There is a transparency that has come into it. Mr Werritty

:34:30.:34:35.

was on no-one's books, not a lobbyist or registered in any way

:34:35.:34:39.

whatsoever. David Cameron said sunlight is the best deterpblgent.

:34:39.:34:44.

Let light shine on these issues to clear these things up. The public

:34:44.:34:49.

are being kept in the dark, this is a ten-page report, very superficial,

:34:49.:34:53.

we need to look wider at the issue of money and ministers. Who gave

:34:53.:34:57.

money to Mr Werritty and his networks, what did they get in

:34:57.:35:04.

return, we need that answer. language is typical economics Civil

:35:04.:35:08.

Service, but actually it is a very powerful report, it is not a

:35:08.:35:15.

superficial report. Everyone says it is very strong. If you don't

:35:15.:35:19.

mind, hang on. What does it tell us about the nature of this Government,

:35:19.:35:22.

and that it can find itself in this sort of mess. It reveals something,

:35:22.:35:26.

does it not, about the nature of coalitions? I don't think that's

:35:26.:35:30.

the case, they reveal something about the way in which Liam Fox

:35:30.:35:34.

fulfilled his responsibility. Nobody had the faintest idea of

:35:34.:35:40.

what was going on? I think they did. That is one of the points in the

:35:40.:35:45.

document, is there had been conversation, there had been

:35:45.:35:50.

concerns, and he had not taken advice. The Permanent Secretary in

:35:50.:35:56.

his department did. No-one did anything about it? Can I ask either

:35:56.:36:01.

of you. He did do something about it, he resigned, we keep for

:36:01.:36:05.

getting that. After the event. any other minister know about any

:36:05.:36:08.

of this. I don't know the answer to that. I think your question, to try,

:36:08.:36:13.

if I may say, to make political capital out of this, is really not

:36:13.:36:23.
:36:23.:36:23.

acceptable. Let me just finish. an opposition politician, what do

:36:23.:36:27.

you expect? It is about the honourable point he makes. To ask

:36:27.:36:31.

about Werritty, you ask questions about him. But it is not the job of

:36:31.:36:35.

Gus O'Donnell and the Prime Minister and anybody else to ask

:36:35.:36:43.

the questions of someone who has no locus. You would rather a broader

:36:43.:36:45.

inquiry Not particularly. I genuinely believe. That everything

:36:45.:36:50.

that needs to be found out has been found out? The things he has done

:36:50.:36:54.

wrongly, in his position, as defence secretary, has been

:36:54.:37:01.

examined in that report. No impropriety and he has resigned.

:37:01.:37:09.

How can you do that, he's a private citizen. How do we know who else he

:37:09.:37:13.

has seen? He may have been a private figure but he's a public

:37:13.:37:17.

figure now. It is not a difficult question. The Prime Minister

:37:17.:37:20.

confused about how Government does these things. The Prime Minister

:37:20.:37:24.

should ask all of his ministers did you meet Mr Werritty and why. And

:37:24.:37:28.

publish that list tonight. Werritty is publishing his own list.

:37:28.:37:32.

That is the parliamentary protest, anybody ask questions of any

:37:32.:37:34.

minister. We will be back on this tomorrow.

:37:34.:37:38.

Extraordinary scenes in Israel and Gaza today as one Israeli corporal

:37:38.:37:43.

and many hundreds of Palestinian prisoners returned home. That one

:37:43.:37:46.

captured 19-year-old can generate such commotion, speaks volumes

:37:46.:37:50.

about Israel's attitude to its citizens, a massive military

:37:50.:37:54.

operation against Gaza failed to find him. The winners in all of

:37:54.:37:58.

this are obviously Mr Shalit, the many Palestinians released, Hamas

:37:58.:38:03.

and Egypt, which acted as broker in the deal. The losers, that slightly

:38:03.:38:11.

more complicated. The return of Gilad Shalit required

:38:11.:38:15.

a political journey. And for this young soldier, that odyssey took

:38:15.:38:21.

five years. Shrunken and pale from his ordeal,

:38:21.:38:26.

the young man fell at last into the arms of his father, who had

:38:27.:38:34.

campaigned, tirelessly for this day. Gaza, meanwhile, the first buses

:38:34.:38:38.

carrying freed prisoners were rolling in. Many heading for family

:38:38.:38:42.

reunions too. The city had turned out to celebrate, 200,000 at the

:38:42.:38:48.

main rally, and to give the men a hero's welcome. We thank God for

:38:48.:38:54.

this big party, and we thank the parties here, Hamas and all the

:38:54.:38:58.

other parties, for what they did and do. We feel very happy.

:38:58.:39:02.

But if the political benefits of this to Hamas and the Israelis were

:39:02.:39:08.

so apparent today, why the years of machinations, why so long.

:39:08.:39:12.

My involvement in this has been since the third day after the

:39:12.:39:16.

kidnapping, five-and-a-half years ago, almost when someone from Hamas

:39:16.:39:22.

called me and said, gerb shone is being bombed, the electricity is

:39:22.:39:25.

off and we have to do something. From that moment three days after

:39:25.:39:29.

the kidnapping in June 2006, I have been trying to bring people

:39:29.:39:34.

together behind channels to pass on messages. I believe this could have

:39:34.:39:40.

been done a long time ago. Serpblgt Shalit was seized nine months after

:39:40.:39:44.

his arm - Sergeant Shalit was seized nine months after his army

:39:44.:39:52.

unit had pulled out of Gaza. In the summer of 2007 Hamas took control

:39:52.:40:00.

of Gaza. There was encouragement across the world to boycott the

:40:00.:40:04.

Islamic movement. With Hamas taking over Gaza, it was harder for Israel

:40:04.:40:09.

to have intelligence there. Israel had no idea where Gilad Shalit was.

:40:09.:40:17.

Thomas Merton, as Prime Minister, he was so - Ehud Olmert, he was so

:40:17.:40:22.

concerned with the moves made in Gaza, he wasn't willing to go in

:40:22.:40:26.

for a long time and try to get him out militarily, or make a deal for

:40:26.:40:30.

him that would result in hundreds of terrorists being released.

:40:30.:40:37.

So were they trying to get him out? With political will lacking, little

:40:37.:40:42.

energy was put into finding them. Rather with rockets falling on

:40:42.:40:48.

Israel, Gaza was pounded, and indeed, invaded early in 200,

:40:48.:40:50.

making meaningful negotiation impossible. But the release of a

:40:50.:40:54.

video of Shalit, several months later, and campaigning by his

:40:54.:41:01.

father, started to change the political equation in Israel. 18

:41:02.:41:07.

months of negotiation and haggling ensued, so the question is, why

:41:07.:41:11.

now? Israeli negotiators say that Hamas, at last, was ready to reduce

:41:11.:41:17.

its demands, and that's what finally brought the two sides to

:41:17.:41:22.

agreement. On July 14th we worked out a document that talked about

:41:22.:41:26.

finality, the closing of the agreement, we talked about the

:41:26.:41:31.

principle that Israel would select from a list of 30, between 25 to 30

:41:31.:41:35.

of the most difficult names, something the Germans called the

:41:35.:41:39.

VIP category, and the Palestinians agreed most of them would be

:41:39.:41:43.

deported forever. By its choreographing of today's

:41:43.:41:53.
:41:53.:41:55.

celebrations, Hamas has sought to derive maximum political wealth.

:41:55.:42:03.

TRANSLATION: I swear to you, that hiding Gilad Shalit inside Gaza is

:42:03.:42:07.

something we are proud of today. The Palestinian military mind has

:42:07.:42:12.

defeated the Israeli mind that is supported by all the Secret

:42:12.:42:17.

Services and intelligence apparatus and means.

:42:17.:42:20.

Inevitably there are many asking what next? Does the ability of

:42:20.:42:24.

Hamas and the Israelis to agree on this open the way for positive

:42:24.:42:28.

change? Or will it just prompt more hostage taking?

:42:28.:42:33.

As he travelled through Egypt this morning, Gilad Shalit expressed

:42:33.:42:38.

this hope? TRANSLATION: I hope this deal would help the conclusion of a

:42:38.:42:42.

peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

:42:42.:42:50.

I hope that co-operation links between the two sides will be

:42:50.:42:54.

consolidated. There may now be further steps to ease the Gaza

:42:54.:42:58.

blockade, perhaps creating a more normal life there, and in

:42:58.:43:02.

surrounding Israeli towns. Today's deal, could also improve the

:43:02.:43:05.

atmosphere for the resumption of some kind of peace talks.

:43:05.:43:11.

But as to a meaningful peace process, that's still a long way

:43:11.:43:17.

off. In the warriors he' reception given to the detainees today, there

:43:17.:43:24.

are the unmistakable signs of two people still locked into an

:43:24.:43:29.

intractable conflict. It is posh bingo, the phrase

:43:29.:43:34.

doesn't spring to mind, but Julian Barnes did it. The Booker Prize has

:43:34.:43:39.

come out, this time there is a row about whether it is infiltrated by

:43:39.:43:44.

books people might want to win. The winner gets �50,000 and a boost to

:43:44.:43:51.

sales. The six finalist, publishers, agents and hangers on, have been

:43:51.:43:56.

troughing at Guildhall tonight. Gavin is with him. Here in the

:43:56.:44:03.

Guildhall I'm joined by the 2012 winner of the Man Booker Prize,

:44:03.:44:07.

Julian Barnes. It has been a long time coming? This is the fourth

:44:08.:44:11.

time I have been shortlisted, I know the ins and outs of not

:44:11.:44:15.

winning it, now I know the winning of it. You once said this was posh

:44:15.:44:20.

bingo, I know the judges are now impecable, is it still true?

:44:20.:44:25.

point I was making is the book has a tendency to drive people it

:44:25.:44:33.

touches mad. Writers are more susceptible than others, it does

:44:33.:44:37.

drive judges and some publishers mad. The way to protect against

:44:37.:44:41.

this is treat it as posh bingo unless and until you win, then it

:44:41.:44:45.

is the decision of the wisest judges in the literary world. That

:44:45.:44:49.

is what I maintain at least for the next 24 hours. On that point, there

:44:49.:44:55.

has been a bit of a fuss this year about the question of readability

:44:55.:45:00.

and literary merit, as if they are sometimes mutually exclusive, which

:45:01.:45:03.

they aren't, what are your thoughts? It is a false argument

:45:03.:45:09.

and people are going mad on both sides. Jane Austen, what is she if

:45:09.:45:15.

not readable, Dickens incredibly, in the modern age, Graham Geem, pen

:45:15.:45:24.

Nell lop pee Fitzgerald. All good righters - PenelopeFitzgerald. All

:45:24.:45:29.

good writers are readable, or you go to fin begin's Wake and it is

:45:29.:45:32.

unreadable. This prize may drive people mad,

:45:32.:45:35.

but does it change you, given where you are in your career, you have

:45:35.:45:39.

this track record of amazing books in the past as well. Does it change

:45:39.:45:44.

you or is it not that important? won't change me in terms of what I

:45:44.:45:51.

write, or how I view the novel and the world. But I hope that it will

:45:51.:45:54.

bring new readers to me. There will be people who think they will have

:45:54.:45:59.

a go at that, and then if they like they will discover there are quite

:45:59.:46:03.

a few more books in the bookshop. That is what I hope for out of it.

:46:03.:46:07.

And of course, it is very nice to receive a large cheque from the Man

:46:07.:46:10.

Booker Prize. The book, The Sense Of An Ending,

:46:11.:46:15.

which I enjoyed immensely. I found it on many levels and will read it

:46:15.:46:19.

again, it is very short and very subtle. I wonder did you spend a

:46:19.:46:23.

long time on it or not. Is a short book a quick write or not? It was a

:46:23.:46:27.

clear, I don't know if you call that quick. Do you call it quick?

:46:27.:46:34.

It is funny, my previous shortlisting was for something that

:46:34.:46:38.

was 450-pages, I wrote that in 12 months. You could say this is a

:46:38.:46:43.

more leisurely 12 months. I think 12 months for 150-page book is

:46:43.:46:46.

about right. I tend to have a sense when I'm starting a book of how

:46:46.:46:51.

long it would take. When I started my first novel it took seven years

:46:51.:46:56.

to write. He I was bored with it by the time I finished it. As you

:46:56.:47:04.

learn how to write you get a sense of how much time you will be alive

:47:04.:47:07.

in your head with it. So I think I have got that, I have got that

:47:07.:47:11.

licked now. Just a final thought, again on the

:47:11.:47:16.

book. I find it whistful in places, and in one or two places - whistful

:47:16.:47:23.

in place and in one or two places laugh out loud? That is great, a

:47:23.:47:28.

start. Humour is part of your writing? Yes, and being funny is

:47:28.:47:35.

often a good way of being serious. Congratulations to Julian Barnes,

:47:35.:47:39.

the winner of the Man Booker Prize. Tomorrow morning's front pages, now

:47:39.:47:43.

the Financial Times, Mervyn King's speech saying the recovery has gone

:47:43.:47:49.

a bit off track. Also the lead in the Telegraph, above a picture of a

:47:49.:47:59.
:47:59.:48:11.

gorgeous, alleged pouting Russian That's all from Newsnight tonight,

:48:11.:48:19.

at the end of a day in which the financial BMOF Goldman Sachs said

:48:20.:48:28.

instead of its usual guzzling, it declared a loss already. It was

:48:28.:48:33.

Rolling Stone magazine that described the firm as a great squid

:48:33.:48:40.

wrapped around the world. This is what the vampire squid does in

:48:41.:48:50.
:48:51.:48:51.

trouble. The vampire quid from hell. Disturb it, and it only retreats a

:48:51.:49:00.

little distance. Luminous bacteria shine from pockets on its arms, to

:49:00.:49:07.

confuse predators, a bite there would leave the head unscathed. The

:49:08.:49:17.
:49:18.:49:18.

threat diminishes and the vampire It is cold out there, isn't it. It

:49:18.:49:24.

will stay cold as we go through tomorrow. Showers tomorrow, showers

:49:24.:49:27.

in different places compared to today, they will drip down into

:49:27.:49:31.

southern parts of the UK. One or two sharp ones. Further north, for

:49:31.:49:36.

northern England and the Midland, dryer and brighter. But chilly,

:49:36.:49:39.

wherever you are. Temperatures struggling for double figures.

:49:39.:49:44.

Sharp showers across the south-east as we end the day. Hail mixed in.

:49:44.:49:48.

Most of the South-West will end the day on the dry and bright notes.

:49:48.:49:51.

One or two showers left behind across the north and west of Wales.

:49:52.:49:55.

Not as frequent or heavy as they would have been earlier on in the

:49:55.:49:59.

day. The breeze will keep the temperatures down. 10 degrees will

:50:00.:50:02.

be typical. Northern Ireland will have much more sunshine than in the

:50:02.:50:07.

last couple of days. Things settling down, that is the case for

:50:07.:50:12.

most of Scotland, wintry showers continuing across the high ground.

:50:12.:50:16.

Looking further ahead into Thursday, a change in the weather for the

:50:16.:50:19.

more north western parts of the country. Clouding over with rains

:50:19.:50:22.

for western parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. The wind picking

:50:22.:50:25.

up too. Further south and east, things settling down for a time.

:50:26.:50:31.

After a frosty start on Thursday, plenty of sunshine, and the wind

:50:31.:50:34.

Who are the protesters who have set up camp near St Paul's cathedral and what do they think their campaign will achieve? Jeremy Paxman presents.


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