14/11/2011 Newsnight


14/11/2011

With talk of a two-speed Europe emerging from the eurozone financial crisis, Newsnight asks what Britain's future relations with the European Union are likely to be.


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Transcript


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Roll up that map, we shall not need it these ten years. The British

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Prime Minister is supposed to have said that when he heard about

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Napoleon's crushing victory in 1805. The map of Europe is now about to

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be redrawn in the wake of the euro crisis, but David Cameron didn't

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manage anything quite as res nant tonight.

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-- We sceptics have a valid point, we should look skeptically at grand

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plans and utopian visions. We have a right to ask what the European

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Union should and shouldn't do. should Britain try to do to the

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political organisation of which we are part. We will hear from among

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others, the man who was once one of Britain's European Commissioners.

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President Assad's troops continue their violence, as The King of

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Jordan says it is time for him to go. A glimpse into the thriving

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cottage industry of phone hacking on day one of the Leveson Inquiry

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into the media. Also tonight: have acted in way that violates my

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obligations to my family, that violates my, or any sense of right

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or wrong. We talk to the New York Attorney-General who tried to clean

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up broad street and got brought down by a sex scandal. How did a

:01:29.:01:39.
:01:39.:01:40.

culture of greed take such firm root in American business. The

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stuffest challenge to Europe since the Second World War, was the way

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the German Chancellor put it today. We're no closer to the lasting

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solution to the euro cries s but everyone agrees if there is one, it

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will carry the stamp "made in Germany". Astor David Cameron, he

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claimed tonight to be a natural secretaryic, yet maintained that

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Britain had no -- sceptic, yet maintained that Britain had no

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choice but to remain in the EU. They support the two-tier Europe,

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with Britain some how in the outer teir. What should Britain be trying

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to achieve. Europe has been shaped by centuries

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of shifting alliances and conflicts. Not so great for conflicts, but

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great business for the couldn't tent's map makers. Every few years

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-- continent's map makers. This is 1870, pru,ia at the centre, hand

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reaching for the low countries. France, flinching, weapons raised

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and Britain an old hag, the caption reads "angry and isolated". You

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could probably construct just as humorous a map as the modern Europe.

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Maybe slightly less funny Silvio Berlusconi has gone, but funny,

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nonetheless. What hasn't changed is the serious point, the central

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position of German power at the heart of the continent, with a sort

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of spiral of reaction from the other countries around it. With

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Britain, or Britain on the side lines there, deciding how best, if

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at all, to get involved. Over 140 years have passed between that map

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and the Prime Minister's speech tonight at the Mansion House.

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Costumes of some, however, that are more 189th than 21st century. The -

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- 19th than 21st century. The Prime Minister talked about a Britain

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that won't leave the EU, but help shape it. And in words that will

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annoy some Liberal Democrat colleagues, he talked about we

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sceptics being right to question plans. Now is the question to ask

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what kind of Europe do we actually want? For me, the answer is clear,

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one that is outward looking, with its eyes to the world, not gazing

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inwards. One with the flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a

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block, whose institutions help by connecting and strengthening its

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members to thrive in a vibrant world, rather than holding them

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back. Mr Cameron talked of a generational shift, one has post

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Cold War rather than post Second World War. But we were no nearer

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finding out where Britain will reorder Europe, and more

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specifically what the British blueprint looks like. Some think

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the Prime Minister needs to get on with mapping out his ideas. There

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is a real danger with David Cameron of being seen to stand on the side

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lines. There are 17EU countries inside the eurozone, but another

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ten who are outside it. Some of them are slated to join, I will be

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astonished if they actually do. There is a renegotiation coming,

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the map of Europe is about to be redrawn. And David Cameron should

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be in there, leading that and providing ground for renegotiation.

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How might the map look. The 27EU countries are forming into

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different groups. The 17 countries that use the euro in a core,

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leaving Britain among the ten peripheral countries, perhaps

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marginalised in their influence. But, it is argued, if the euro at

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some future date breaks up, other countries may join the periphery,

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Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain or Ireland. Unfortunately it won't

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work that way. If you talk to countries like Poland, or Sweden,

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they don't want to be part of a group led by Britain. Many of the

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ten not currently in the euro want to join the euro. Like Poland. And

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are prepared to put up with the rules and regulations required, and

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want to be part of whatever organisations and clubs the Germans

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establish for the eurozone. Other countries like Sweden, which don't

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intend to join the euro any time soon, still don't want to be

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associated with the British. The British have rather a bad

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reputation as being against integration. David Cameron and

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Nicolas Sarkozy are, in front of the cameras, at least, all Bonn hom

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me. But behind the scenes there is -- bon homie, there is exasperation

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at us barking from the side lines. Could Britain change the grouping,

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threatening to veto to sort out the euro unless we got what we want at

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the same time. I was in Berlin talking to Mrs Merkel's adviser,

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they are clear that any British attempt to veto the new treaty

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would lead to Germany and its partners going ahead with something

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else, another treaty, which doesn't require a British signature,

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outside the framework of the European Union. If the Germans are

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wanting to play the game of saying they are not listening, I think we

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have to really assert ourselves. There is no way that the ten

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countries inside the European Union, who are not in the eurozone, should

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allow themselves to be tampered by the Germans and the French, simply

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because they have got themselves into a mess, form ago currency,

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which some of us warned wouldn't work.

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So it is not time to pencil in the new map just yet. Frustrating,

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perhaps, but how about this First World War handerchief map, where

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Germany's central position makes it rather vulnerable!

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Shortly before we came on air I spoke to Lord Mandelson, who monk

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his many accomplishment, being a former EU Trade Commissioner. I

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asked him where the euro had gone wrong? It has given Europe ten

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years of moderately strong growth, low inflation, the problem is the

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Governments where it has lacked a strong monetary authority, in the

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form of the European Central Bank. In my opinion and the opinion of

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others has been too legally and operationally constrained. Secondly,

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it has not had an effective fiscal governance. It has allowed its

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members to go different ways fistically, storing up problems

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which have -- fiscally storing up problems which have been way laid

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by the financial crash. It is clear the Germans think the only way for

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this thing to work is to have a much closer political and fiscal

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union within the eurozone? I think everyone is agreed, Germany and

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France and others agreed, that we need completely to recast the

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fiscal Governments. There needs to be a fiscally unified governance

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for the eurozone. Something we haven't had in the past. Where the

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disagreement exists, where I mentioned before, is the role of

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the monetary authority, the European Central Bank, Germany, in

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my view, is in the wrong place. I believe not only can Italy only be

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saved by the ECB making absolutely clear that it will be a lender of

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last resort, that we will, through the ECB, throw everything we have,

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if the market panic spreads to Italy, and I think also a bank that

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would stand behind other members of the eurozone that face similar

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problems in the future. If we don't do that, I don't think we will get

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over the crisis and if we don't do that we won't be able to repair the

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original design flaws in the eurozon. There are ten nations --

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Eurozone. There are ten nations not in the eurozone, why doesn't

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Britain aim to become the leader of that block? Because it has declined

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to do so. What Mrs Merkel has done recently, she has said to the Poles

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and the British, and said you are out of the euro, some of you want

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to come in, and some of you are waiting for the economic

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circumstances to do so. Others, if you like, Britain, say you don't

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ever want to come in. Her offer was a very, very important offer indeed.

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It was to say to the "outs", as we are and the Poles and the others,

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we will form a europlus group, supported by a europlus pack, and

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we will allow you to sit at the table, and take part and share in

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the decision-making, the key economic decision-making that

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relates to the eurozone. The British Government, for reasons I

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find it almost impossible to comprehend said, no thank you very

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much, we don't want to do that. are outside the eurozone, and

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outside the eurozone...Not Choosing to be outside the eurozone, but

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choosing to be outside it and not showing up at those councils and

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bodies where the decision making, and economic discussions of the

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eurozone are taking place. So we are doing two things, we are saying

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we are not coming into the eurozone, and secondly, we don't want to be

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part of any europlus pack, or group, because we don't want to have

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anything to do with your decision making either. You still think we

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should join the euro? If we are not members of the euro, and nobody is

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proposing we should be. You were proposing we should be? Indeed I

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was arguing for it. Only a couple of years you claim it had been a

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tremendous success? It is a very important point. It is an important

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point? We are here now not ten years ago. It was two years ago

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when you said the euro had been a tremendous success and we could not

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stay out of it indefinitely? I see no point in gloating at the fate of

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the euro, or with some sort of smugness and saying aren't we

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clever for not being in it. It is nothing to do with smugness or

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gloating, I'm merely pointing out to you that two years ago you said

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this was a great success and we couldn't stay out of it

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indefinitely, do you still think that? And if and when the

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circumstances were right, and Britain's advantage to go in, we

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should certainly consider doing so. Now? Not now, of course not now.

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Some time in the future, you still believe this now? In the meantime

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there are a whole set of questions for us, and dilemmas facing Britain,

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about our relationship to the European Union, as the eurozone

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becomes a tighter and more integrated block. We have to decide

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where we are going to stand and what we are going to do in those

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new circumstances, and how we are going to deal with the dilemma that

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presents to us. When you said Britain cannot afford to say no to

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the euro indefinitely, that it was in Britain's national interest to

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go into it, you still believe that? Jeremy, there is no proposition, by

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me or anyone else, that we should go into the euro. This was your

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proposition? In whatever year you are quoting. That was 2003, 2009,

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you said it was obviously the case Britain should join the single

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currency, you said it is perfectly clear that the euro had been

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success? We can play games and score points. I'm not playing games,

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I suggest your judgment is flawed because you thought it was such a

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brilliant scheme? In what way is my judgment flawed now when I say to

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you, if we do not maximise our influence within the European Union,

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we are going to become more and more detatched from it, less able

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to influence its direction, and less able to stand up to our

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interests. Why are you being so defeatist, isn't this fantastic

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opportunity for Britain to reshape Europe. Having seen the eurozone

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become a calamity? Absolutely there is a chance to exercise more

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influence, and I would say this to you too, had we been in the euro,

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had we been members of the eurozon. Magistrate mess we would be in

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then? We might have been able to avoid the mess that has resulted.

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Britain is very good in Europe in saying that proper rules,

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intelligently formulated should be well applied, and then enforced. We

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are very good in Europe. Let me make the point, we are very good in

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Europe at saying to our partners, look, this danger, that elephant

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trap is opening up. We have got to anticipate, we have to anticipate a

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whole series and set of different circumstances, and we have got to

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work together to avoid them. If we had been in the euro, we would be

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take orders from Berlin? We weren't in the eurozone, we didn't exercise

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that influence, it is now a very big challenge for Britain, both to

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help Europe repair what has gone wrong in the eurozone, but also to

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create a future, and a direction for the European Union, that is not

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just good for the whole of Europe, but good for Britain as well. And

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my fear, is that the way in which we are conducting ourselves now in

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relation to the European Union, we're not only standing outside the

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eurozone for reasons that are obvious to all of us, but we are in

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great danger of seeing those members of the eurozone, more

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tightly integrated, closely knit, taking their decisions in their

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interests, on economic matters, which are of fundamental importance

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to our economic future, with us being able to exercise hardly any

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influence or power or sway over that whatsoever. You tell me how

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that is in Britain's interests, it is certainly not. Lordson, thank

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you. With us now are -- Lord Mandelson, thank you. With us is

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the former minister Malcolm Rifkind and my guest from Paris.

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Isn't the inevitable consequence of what is happening in the eurocrisis,

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a marginalisation of countries like Britain? I think it has happened,

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you are right to mention it. There is a feeling that the German and

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the French have. First of all, there is a two-speed Europe, which

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has in way been created by the attitudes of the UK, which is not

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in the eurozone, not adopting the binding chartered and of rights,

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and neither some provisions of the treaty with regard to justice and

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that kind of thing. So I think that, in way, for the first time, there

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is a true dilemma, as you remember Churchill said, regarding Great

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Britain and the European construction, we are with it, we

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are not of it. That was true years ago, but nowadays, when it is felt

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that there is no solution of eurocrisis, apart from a strong not

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only economy governance of the eurozone, but also a political

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integration of this zone of solidarity, of necessary solidarity,

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between the 17 and perhaps more member states, for the first time

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in its history, since it has access to the EU, Great Britain has a real

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choice to be in or out. I think that this choice is right now, and

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not later on. Not such a bad thing to be marginalised? We are not

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marginalised, the main error madame has made, like many other people

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she talks about a two-speed Europe. That implies that all along we will

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end up at the same destination, some getting there a bit later than

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others. It is not a two-speed Europe. The debate happening in

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Europe is actually about what kind of European Union we actually

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aspire to. Whether it is a European Union where all countries have to

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accept the same level of integration at some date. Or

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whether we accept that Europe, not only now, but permanently, will

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have diverse kinds of membership, and some of us will never be in the

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European single currency, some of us will wish to go further, the

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French and the Germans were very good reasons may want more

:17:59.:18:06.

integration. May want to respect our right not to go in that

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direction. And we respect their right to go in that direction.

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is this so unappealing to other members of the European Union?

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is appealing to some and unappealing to others. Of the 27

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countries, 17 are in the eurozone, ten are not. Some are in there.

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Most of them are hoping to join it? They were, but I'm not sure now.

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That is not the point, each country has the right to make up its own

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mind. Europe because it is 27 countries, it will soon be over 30

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countries, cannot ever aspire to reaching the same destination and

:18:43.:18:46.

degree of integration. If it tries to do that it will implode, that is

:18:46.:18:51.

in no-one's interest. I wonder how much choice France, for example,

:18:51.:18:56.

really has. The plain fact is, it is Germany that is running Europe

:18:56.:19:01.

now. And the German position is understandably a great deal

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stronger than ever it was, and the orders for Paris are made in

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Berlin? Berlin has the leadership at the present time. I admit it. It

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is right, and it was the case with the constitution as well, as you

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remember. Germany is really now not only facing great issues, that is

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to say either to support the euro and make the eurozone survive, or

:19:30.:19:36.

to be an actor of the collapse of the eurozone and of Europe as well.

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I have no problem with Germany taking the lead in so far as we

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have choices to make, and we have to tell the truth to our people. I

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think that in the UK, for instance, you have to launch a referendum if

:19:53.:19:57.

Mrs Merkel pushes ahead to a change of the treaty. So the referendum is

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the truth. I say that the French, regreting very much the way of the

:20:04.:20:09.

French Government, addressing the issue of Europe, during the

:20:09.:20:12.

campaign for this referendum. I think it is absolutely necessary

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now that the people of Europe have their say, and that they are

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telling the truth. That is to say, you cannot belong to an NTT, as

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Europe, without transfering powers, and we have been so far that either

:20:30.:20:35.

there is the end of Europe, or we go further. This is the true choice

:20:35.:20:39.

of today. This is an opportunity, then, isn't it? It is an

:20:39.:20:43.

opportunity, if there is a desire to show some flexibility. I believe

:20:43.:20:48.

that countries like Britain should not veto France and Germany, and

:20:48.:20:51.

others, if they wish to go for greater integration, nor should

:20:51.:20:55.

they be able to prevent countries like the UK, saying that membership

:20:55.:20:59.

of the European Union doesn't require European formity. If there

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is an inner core of -- Union formity. If there is an inner core

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of countries, whichever way they will be drawn in the future, we

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will find ourselves excluded from crucial decisions? We have taken a

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conscious decision. We won't have much influence on eurozone issues,

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we are not maybe of the eurozone. We have done that to preserve our

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independence, to determine our own interest rates, to determine

:21:29.:21:34.

whether we have quanative easing in the UK and control of our own

:21:34.:21:36.

monetary policy. That is what independence is about. The sharing

:21:36.:21:40.

of sovereignity is crucial to the European Union, but the degree of

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sovereignity you are prepared to share should depend on your own

:21:44.:21:48.

national circumstances. For Britain, for Sweden, for Denmark, for a

:21:48.:21:51.

number of other countries, we have come to national conclusions that

:21:51.:21:54.

consistent with our membership of the European Union, we are not

:21:54.:21:59.

prepared to go for full integration, other countries wish to go further,

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Europe will flourish if each country respects that a la carte

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Europe, which is actually the only way Europe can survive in the long-

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term. Thank you very much both of you.

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King Abdullah of Jordan today said it was time for President Assad of

:22:13.:22:22.

Syria to stand down. For a dictator who believes he stands for Arab

:22:22.:22:28.

unity, he behaves in a strange way, his organisation has been suspended

:22:28.:22:31.

from the Arab League. But Assad shows no sign of willingness to

:22:31.:22:36.

quit the stage himself. There is increasing anxiety of what you

:22:36.:22:41.

might decided to do to hang on to power, not just killing his own

:22:41.:22:45.

citizens, but other citizens too. Syria's revolutionaries have had

:22:45.:22:49.

little to celebrate since the start of their uprising. But today, as

:22:49.:22:54.

more deaths were reported in fighting, they briefly cheered.

:22:54.:22:59.

Thanking other Arab states for supporting them by suspending their

:22:59.:23:05.

country from the Arab League. hope to, from this regime, to

:23:05.:23:12.

recognise that the time is up now. And the time is to step down and

:23:12.:23:19.

let the people decide. But the reaction from thousands of other

:23:19.:23:24.

Syrians, millions according to the authorities, who have been on pro-

:23:24.:23:28.

regime rallies, was one of fury. Some came of their own will, some

:23:28.:23:32.

were encouraged to attend, by an outraged Government. TRANSLATION:

:23:32.:23:39.

The Arab League decision is illegal, it has not been issued by a

:23:39.:23:43.

unanimous vote. It doesn't rely on the legality of the charter of the

:23:43.:23:48.

league. For a country that has always believed it was at the

:23:48.:23:53.

forefront of the struggle for Arab unity, the league's decision is a

:23:53.:23:58.

major humiliation. And today, in another affront, Syrian President

:23:58.:24:01.

Bashar al-Assad faced the first public call for him to step down

:24:01.:24:05.

from a fellow Arab leader. I would believe if I were in his shoes I

:24:05.:24:10.

would step down. For a long time, Syria's Arab neighbours did their

:24:10.:24:13.

best to turn a blind eye to what's been happening in the country.

:24:13.:24:17.

Reluctant to take on a state which such strategic weight in the Middle

:24:17.:24:23.

East. Now, they have taken the historic decision to come off the

:24:23.:24:27.

fence. Governments like Saudi Arabia's, which have long disliked

:24:27.:24:30.

President Assad, but which hate revolution, have now committed

:24:30.:24:35.

themselves, at least morally, to supporting revolutionaries. But the

:24:35.:24:38.

suspension of Syria from the Arab League, won't be enough in itself,

:24:38.:24:44.

to force Mr Assad from office unless it is backed up by practical

:24:44.:24:48.

action. His is a regime which still has powerful allies, both in the

:24:48.:24:53.

region, and around the world. Within Syria, President Assad has

:24:53.:24:57.

faced opposition in towns stretching in an arc around the

:24:57.:25:02.

country. Abroad, his enemies now include most members of the 22-

:25:02.:25:06.

strong Arab League. They also include Turkey, a one-time ally,

:25:06.:25:10.

that now hosts Syrian opposition groups, the European Union, once

:25:10.:25:15.

the main user of Syrian oil, which has now banned such imports, and

:25:15.:25:19.

the United States, which has also imposed sanctions. But Mr Assad can

:25:19.:25:24.

still count on the support of the two militant Islamist movements,

:25:24.:25:28.

Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian territories, which

:25:28.:25:34.

has long sponsored. Its closest all lie, Iran, whose revolutionary

:25:34.:25:38.

guards are supposed to have advised Mr Assad on how to suppress

:25:38.:25:43.

protests, its neighbouring trader, Iraq, which abstained on the Arab

:25:43.:25:48.

League vote, and furd afield Russia and China, very -- further afield,

:25:48.:25:53.

Russia and China, very wary of aproving any criticism of Damascus.

:25:53.:25:56.

With fighting intensifing in recent days, what some opposition

:25:56.:26:02.

activists now hope for is an internationally imposed no-fly zone

:26:02.:26:06.

over Syria. That was ruled out at the weekend by Qatar, which

:26:07.:26:10.

currently chairs the Arab League. More economic sanctions are likely,

:26:10.:26:13.

they may not have much immediate effect. Syria is not surrounded, on

:26:13.:26:22.

one side it has Iraq, almost a continuation of the Syrian economy

:26:22.:26:27.

in a sense. On the other said, Iran, friendly to it, and on the other

:26:27.:26:32.

side, Lebanon. This time, for the first time in four years, Syria has

:26:32.:26:37.

had a wonderful bumper crop, after four years of drought and poor

:26:37.:26:45.

crops. Can a diplomatically cornered regime use its

:26:45.:26:49.

relationship with Iran and clients Hezbollah to cause trouble in the

:26:49.:26:53.

region, provoking conflict with Israel to deflect from the uprising

:26:53.:27:00.

at home. In the case of Hezbollah, the difficulty at Hezbollah, their

:27:00.:27:04.

main allegiance is with Iran. Hezbollah could be used by Iran,

:27:04.:27:09.

were Iran to be taked militarily, or even if Syria was to be taked

:27:09.:27:15.

militarily. If we are in just talking about economic pressure,

:27:15.:27:23.

Hezbollah will be feared and held back, that any action could unleash

:27:23.:27:28.

Israeli action against Hezbollah or Syria itself. Inside Syria the

:27:28.:27:31.

bloodshed continues. Today opposition footage appears to show

:27:31.:27:38.

troops again attacking the rebellious city of Homs. Many think

:27:38.:27:42.

civil war is approaching. It is for fear of spreading conflict that

:27:42.:27:46.

Arab and other powers have been so cautious towards Syria for so long.

:27:46.:27:52.

But the stakes in this powder-keg of a region, are slowly rising.

:27:52.:27:55.

With us now is the Syrian writer and journalist Rana Kabbani, we are

:27:55.:27:59.

joined from cashing done by the former assistant secretary at the

:27:59.:28:03.

US State Department, now at the council on foreign relations. Rana

:28:03.:28:08.

Kabbani, do you think Assad is on the brink now? I absolutely do. I

:28:08.:28:13.

think what has happened this week is the forming of a consensus,

:28:13.:28:21.

among the Arab states, among the immediate neighbours of Syria,

:28:21.:28:26.

including, very importantly, Turkey, and Europe and the United States.

:28:26.:28:31.

Before we kept hearing about giving him time, that he was a reformist,

:28:31.:28:36.

that there was still hope that this regime could be saved. But I'm

:28:36.:28:41.

believing very firmly that is now passed. Do you think he's on the

:28:41.:28:47.

edge too? I wish he were, and I wish that Rana Kabbani was right,

:28:47.:28:54.

and is right. But I'm not convinced. It is true, the regime is becoming

:28:54.:28:57.

internationally isolated, and isolated in his own back yard. But

:28:57.:29:00.

he still has many tools at his disposal, within his own country.

:29:00.:29:06.

He has the army, he still controls the major cities. The business

:29:06.:29:10.

elite is behind him. The sanctions imposed on Syria are hurting the

:29:10.:29:15.

country, but are they hurting the people in control? I'm not sure

:29:15.:29:18.

exactly yet how this international isolation translates into his

:29:18.:29:22.

departure. Are you worried about what he might do if he's cornered?

:29:22.:29:27.

I'm very worried about what he does. First of all, this is a man who has

:29:27.:29:32.

proven that he is prone to miscalculation, and to recklessness.

:29:32.:29:36.

He's done it in Lebanon, recall earlier this year, twice he has

:29:36.:29:40.

sent Palestinian refugees to the border with Israel, to meet their

:29:40.:29:46.

own death. He is someone who is not the calculator his father was. So

:29:46.:29:50.

the foings for him to miscalculate -- potential for him to

:29:50.:29:54.

miscalculate and be reckless is quite high. You mean the

:29:54.:29:58.

possibility of his encouraging Hezbollah to attack Israel, or

:29:58.:30:01.

something? That is one possibility. I don't think Hezbollah necessary

:30:01.:30:05.

takes its orders from him. But he has many tools at his disposal. As

:30:05.:30:13.

we have seen, he has killed over 3500 people of his own country. He

:30:13.:30:18.

doesn't show any sign of leaving. And indeed, the Arab League

:30:18.:30:22.

proposal really doesn't leave him much room. If he were to abide by

:30:22.:30:26.

the Arab League proposals, he would be signing his own political death

:30:26.:30:31.

warrant. I think he will fight it out. I listened to the Foreign

:30:31.:30:35.

Minister Muslim Brotherhood Muslim's speech this morning, from

:30:35.:30:45.
:30:45.:30:45.

I listened to the Foreign Minister's speech, it was so

:30:45.:30:50.

delusional, it reminded me of the last few weeks of Saddam Hussein

:30:50.:30:55.

and Colonel Gaddafi's regime. It was the same kind of living in

:30:55.:30:58.

never-never land, and not acknowledging the depths of the

:30:58.:31:03.

crisis the isolation of the country, the unbelievable crimes that have

:31:03.:31:06.

been committed, that have been called by Human Rights Watch,

:31:06.:31:12.

crimes against humanity. And the fact that the whole Syrian

:31:12.:31:15.

population, including the Christians and business community,

:31:15.:31:20.

is now against him. No-one denies the depth of the opposition, no-one

:31:20.:31:25.

denies the distastefulness of the regime, the question is, how

:31:25.:31:31.

dangerous he is? I think he's a busted flush, quite frankly's

:31:31.:31:36.

dangerous, and has always been, as has been his father, to the Syrian

:31:36.:31:41.

people. What about the subsidiary point then, supposing that he does

:31:41.:31:45.

indeed go, supposing you're right, he really is on the brink of giving

:31:45.:31:49.

up, is there a danger then of a sectarian conflict in Syria?

:31:49.:31:55.

don't think so. Simply because the Syrians have watched the example of

:31:55.:31:59.

Iraq very carefully, and have always said they accept this

:31:59.:32:02.

totalitarian regime, because we don't want to end up in a state of

:32:02.:32:07.

occupation or civil war. They are very conscious of the fact that it

:32:07.:32:13.

is a country of many minorities, of many races, of many languages, and

:32:13.:32:17.

the future needs to be a democratic and pluralistic one. That is what

:32:17.:32:23.

we have waited for. Do you fear a sectarian conflict in Syria? Very

:32:23.:32:29.

much so. I think one of the driving forces here behind the Arab

:32:29.:32:33.

League's move to action, is their fear of sectarian conflict. I think

:32:33.:32:38.

they worry that Syria is on the brink. The Syrian opposition,

:32:38.:32:41.

however valiant and Northern Ireland its cause, still has not

:32:41.:32:49.

convinced -- nobble its cause, still has not convinced the

:32:49.:32:55.

officials in Syria they would be better after Assad lives. It is not

:32:55.:33:01.

the politicians and Christians like Assad they are worried about the

:33:01.:33:04.

incumbent after. It is the revolution's job to convince them

:33:04.:33:10.

there will be a better day after Assad. There is that sectarian rift

:33:10.:33:18.

that no-one wants but is emerging that is driving the Arab League to

:33:18.:33:22.

ratchet it up lest it implode. disagree with that, if Syria has

:33:22.:33:28.

been sectarian, it is the result of the Assad family's regin. They have

:33:28.:33:33.

made everything so that members of their own community have had the

:33:33.:33:37.

army in their grasp, and the business community. And that is why

:33:37.:33:42.

we have seen sectarian hatred rising, but once they go, I think

:33:42.:33:45.

that will abate. Thank you very much.

:33:45.:33:49.

Once upon time they talked to my next guest as a future President of

:33:50.:33:52.

the United States. Eliot Spitzer made his name as the so-called

:33:52.:33:56.

Sheriff of Wall Street, an Attorney-General who went after

:33:56.:34:01.

corrupt businessmen, and be they never so powerful. Tomorrow night a

:34:01.:34:04.

90-minute documentary in the Storyville slot on BBC Four tells

:34:04.:34:08.

his story, and how his crusade made him powerful enemies, so that when

:34:08.:34:14.

he fell, he fell like Lucifer. Caught using prostitutes.

:34:14.:34:19.

He was known as the Sheriff of Wall Street, Mr Right. But then it all

:34:19.:34:24.

went wrong. He knew that his entire political career was on the line,

:34:24.:34:28.

and ultimately vice took over virtue, he couldn't control himself.

:34:28.:34:32.

I remember one time he was trying to book an appointment. I just

:34:32.:34:36.

remember thinking to myself, I was like this man is so paranoid,'s

:34:36.:34:40.

just going to attract a situation. You know, because he was just

:34:40.:34:45.

asking for it. By the time he became governor of New York, Eliot

:34:45.:34:52.

Spitzer had a reputation. His eight years as New York attorney yen, had

:34:52.:34:57.

seen him sue coal fire plants for pollution, and he uncovered fraud

:34:57.:35:01.

in the pharmaceutical industry. And then he took on Wall Street.

:35:01.:35:08.

job had been a second teir position, focused on regulating crooked car

:35:08.:35:12.

dealers, Eliot Spitzer focused on Wall Street, the biggest guys

:35:12.:35:15.

around. Spitzer's premise, which was right, was that Wall Street

:35:15.:35:20.

can't be left to regulate itself, or terrible things will happen.

:35:20.:35:24.

went after market analysts who were tipping stocks in which privately

:35:24.:35:29.

they had no faith. Merrill Lynch became his target. My office has

:35:29.:35:34.

reached an agreement that will ensure the integrity of advice on

:35:35.:35:39.

which investors depend. He broke the mould and went on fast and hard,

:35:39.:35:46.

he got things done in weeks and months that took federal regulators

:35:47.:35:50.

years. He would get business on side to force the industry to

:35:50.:35:53.

change the way it did business, a lot of people thought that was

:35:53.:35:59.

outrageous. He also took on CIO's outlandish bay rates. The head of

:35:59.:36:09.
:36:09.:36:09.

the New York Stock Exchange had an annual salary of dollar million --

:36:09.:36:14.

millions and millions of dollars. He sued them. I have been rich and

:36:14.:36:20.

poor, rich is better. Jew can't pay the head of a not-for-profit that

:36:20.:36:26.

much money, close to $00 million, it is simply too much, it is not --

:36:26.:36:29.

$200 million, it is simply too much, it is not right, it is against the

:36:29.:36:34.

law. This is going after elephants. In the end the elephants kept the

:36:34.:36:38.

cash. Spitzer had other targets, there was the head of the AIG

:36:38.:36:44.

insurance company, worth $157 billion, with 92 employees. Spitzer

:36:45.:36:49.

alleged the -- 92,000 employees. Spitzer alleged the books were

:36:49.:36:58.

being cooked. He said, I will destroy you. Those are strong words.

:36:58.:37:02.

I had never heard those words like that before. I couldn't quite

:37:02.:37:05.

believe it. But Eliot Spitzer was about to fall because of his

:37:05.:37:10.

personal dealings in an industry which was also booming. The FBI was

:37:10.:37:15.

investigating a prostitution ring, Spitzer was client nine. His escort,

:37:15.:37:19.

trading his Kirsten, was one Ashley Alexandra Dupre. Some breaking news

:37:19.:37:22.

this afternoon, the New York Times is reporting that governor Eliot

:37:22.:37:26.

Spitzer of New York has informed some of his senior administration

:37:26.:37:31.

officials that he had been involved in a prostitution ring. You say the

:37:31.:37:38.

work, but you haven't said the words. The work? Prostitution?

:37:38.:37:43.

Escort. Escort. What's the difference? Escort. In recent

:37:43.:37:48.

months, while Eliot Spitzer's reemerged to comment on the

:37:48.:37:52.

financial crisis, Ashley Dupre has been back in the limelight, to his

:37:52.:37:56.

supporters he may have been guilty of had you bris, they say he was

:37:56.:38:00.

also a prophet, facing down the financial villains who put the

:38:00.:38:07.

world in peril. You can see the Storyville documentary about Eliot

:38:07.:38:11.

Spitzer, Client 9: The Call Girl And The Governor, on BBC Four at

:38:11.:38:21.
:38:21.:38:41.

10.00pm. Let's talk to Eliot Spitzer from New York. There is a

:38:41.:38:44.

profound change in the way capitalism works in the world, what

:38:44.:38:48.

do you think it is? There is anger and frustration over the fact that

:38:48.:38:54.

the 1% at the very top of society are doing extraordinarily well. I'm

:38:54.:38:58.

a capitalist, I believe people should do well and work hard to do

:38:58.:39:02.

well, but the system has to be fair. It can't be rigged. People came to

:39:02.:39:05.

realise there was so much self- dealing on Wall Street, people were

:39:06.:39:09.

paying themselves huge bonuses on salaries by picking the pockets of

:39:09.:39:12.

the middle-class and rigging the system. I believe in a fair market

:39:12.:39:15.

system that generates wealth, not an opportunity for the wealthiest

:39:15.:39:20.

to pick the pockets of the middle- class, and occupy Wall Street, to a

:39:20.:39:24.

certain extent, the Tea Party as well, the analog of occupy wall

:39:24.:39:28.

treat on the far right, are there because of the frustration of the

:39:29.:39:33.

middle-class, that some how those at the top are begin iting unfairly.

:39:34.:39:38.

Nobody worries they are benefiting, but when it is unfair. Is this a

:39:38.:39:42.

failure of regulation, or some how a more profound moral change that

:39:42.:39:47.

people just think differently about their relationship with society?

:39:47.:39:50.

in so many issues, in questions of that nature, the answer is both. I

:39:51.:39:54.

don't say both to in any way hesitate to make a choice, I think

:39:54.:39:56.

those who watched the introduction to this interview, and it was

:39:57.:40:00.

painful for me to listen to for obvious reasons, will understand I

:40:00.:40:03.

will go right at the problems I believe are there. Yes it was

:40:03.:40:07.

failure of regulation. I said over and over when I was tone general of

:40:07.:40:11.

the state of New York, I would not -- Attorney-General of the state of

:40:11.:40:18.

New York, I would trust the NCC to do house cleaning for me, they were

:40:18.:40:21.

weak in many levels. It was a moral failure on those who are running

:40:21.:40:24.

major companies, who viewed it as their own obligation to make as

:40:24.:40:29.

much money as they could. They too often overlooked their fundamental

:40:29.:40:32.

obligation to honesty and integrity in the market place. We are now at

:40:32.:40:37.

a moment when we have to rebuild the very premise on which we

:40:37.:40:39.

operate our financial services sector, in order to rebuild the

:40:39.:40:44.

jobs in the middle-class that are we heart of our domestic economy in

:40:44.:40:48.

the United States, likewise in England and the rest of Europe.

:40:48.:40:53.

anything changed as a consequence of the crash? I think there has

:40:53.:40:57.

been a serious questioning of much of what led up to it, I'm not sure

:40:57.:41:01.

we have yet learned the right lessons. I don't mean to be

:41:01.:41:06.

partisan, I would hope the history here would lead to a non-partisan

:41:06.:41:10.

resolution, but if you listen to the Republican party, once again,

:41:10.:41:14.

speaking as though the market unfeterd by any regulation will get

:41:14.:41:19.

us to the appropriate place -- unfettered by any regulation will

:41:19.:41:23.

get us to the appropriate place is not looking at history. I'm fan of

:41:23.:41:27.

the market, they require rules as a soccer and football game, wow the

:41:27.:41:31.

rules and enforcement of the rules -- without the rules and

:41:31.:41:34.

enforcement of the rules you have mayhem. Have you been disappointed

:41:34.:41:38.

by how President Obama has gone about his task? Well, look, I have

:41:38.:41:43.

been in an executive position and know how difficult it is to effect

:41:43.:41:48.

change. Having said that, I have been disappointed in what Timothy

:41:48.:41:52.

Geithner has done, in particular, he was in charge of the New York

:41:52.:41:55.

Fed, the entity that oversaw the markets, he created the structure

:41:55.:41:59.

that collapsed, he has not been a voice to reform, anywhere close to

:41:59.:42:03.

adequate to the task, in my opinion. I think there are other voices. I

:42:03.:42:09.

think that you can look to the Bank of England, Mervyn King and others

:42:09.:42:13.

in Europe, who have been much more articulate and forceful in

:42:13.:42:16.

pinpointing and highlighting the changes we need, the separation of

:42:16.:42:22.

commercial and investment banking, eliminating proprietyry trading.

:42:22.:42:25.

you regret because of what happened, you can't be part of this process?

:42:25.:42:29.

Of course. First of all, just so it is clear i regret what I did, I

:42:29.:42:35.

have said that over and over. I will say it again. Yes I regret, I

:42:35.:42:41.

apologise, at a different level, I miss being a part of the dialogue

:42:41.:42:47.

that is on going that is much necessary and needed the effort to

:42:47.:42:50.

change the structures that dominate financial services right now.

:42:50.:42:53.

Hopefully we will get where we need to get. Do you entertain any hopes

:42:53.:42:59.

of possibly coming back into public life? There are many different ways

:42:59.:43:07.

to par piss Tate in public life. I A -- par -- Participate in public

:43:07.:43:12.

life. I have a part in a CNN show to write. I'm deeply involved in

:43:12.:43:18.

the family business and I teach. Being involved in elective office

:43:18.:43:25.

is not the only one. I will pursue different opportunities in due

:43:25.:43:28.

course. The inquiry to try to find out what the tabloid newspapers

:43:28.:43:32.

have been up to got under way today, at the Royal Courts of Justice, it

:43:32.:43:38.

hopes to report within the year, with some recommendations, on as

:43:38.:43:43.

the chairman put it, who guards the guardians. On the opening day there

:43:43.:43:48.

were some disclosures at the now closed News of the World, was a lot

:43:48.:43:52.

more widespread than previously known. Richard Watson is here, he

:43:52.:43:58.

has cover the story from day one. What have we learned today? A lot,

:43:58.:44:01.

they designed it so they would receive significant information on

:44:02.:44:09.

day one. We heard from Robert Jay QC who said police information

:44:09.:44:13.

indicated phone hacking had been going on from 2002-200. The old

:44:13.:44:18.

story was one rogue reporter, Clive Goodman, and Glenn Mulcaire, the

:44:18.:44:22.

reporter and the private detective. In Glenn Mulcaire's notebooks there

:44:22.:44:27.

were references to no fewer than 27 other jouermists or employees of

:44:27.:44:31.

News International, casting the net very much more widely one of these

:44:32.:44:37.

journalists had apparently made 1, 453 requests for information to

:44:37.:44:42.

Glenn Mulcaire. Other newspapers were drawn in too? Interestingly

:44:42.:44:44.

the notebooks are proving a fertile sorgs of information for the

:44:44.:44:50.

inquiry and police. There -- source of information for the inquiry and

:44:50.:44:55.

the police. There are references to the Sun and Mirror on some of the

:44:55.:44:59.

notes, indicating the net will go wider than this. On Newsnight rewe

:44:59.:45:06.

veeld back in the summer that David Mills had claimed that an unnamed

:45:06.:45:10.

Mirror journalist had phoned her up quoting a voice message she had

:45:10.:45:18.

made to Paul McCartney, verbatim. Trinity Mirror denied it at the

:45:18.:45:22.

time, and said journalists operated within the law. New developments in

:45:22.:45:29.

the border story, May maes embarrassment. Brodie Clarkson, the

:45:29.:45:35.

man who resigned after -- Brodie Clarke, the man who resigned after

:45:35.:45:38.

the fiasco. He's due to give evidence tomorrow. The Labour Party

:45:38.:45:42.

have indicated they have e-mails from UK Border Agency staff which

:45:42.:45:45.

they say show there was widespread concern about this relaxation. They

:45:45.:45:50.

refer to one in particular, one from Durham Airport, apparently,

:45:51.:45:57.

where some individual was saying that passports weren't being

:45:57.:46:02.

checked, watch lists weren't being checked from private planes. That

:46:02.:46:06.

is other airports as well, so they say. Thank you, that's it for now.

:46:06.:46:11.

The great constitutionalist, Walter Bag it said the cure for admiring

:46:11.:46:15.

the House of Lords is to go and look at it. He never saw this. It

:46:15.:46:18.

happened the other day, as the former Defence Secretary, Lord King

:46:18.:46:21.

was talking about Poppy Day, and the fact that fewer and fewer

:46:21.:46:27.

living people remember the war. The figure sitting next to him is

:46:27.:46:32.

Baroness Trumping ton who worked in novel intelligence during the war.

:46:32.:46:39.

She's 8 and still knows her semiphore. There is a few survivors

:46:39.:46:43.

still there. I remember meeting Sir Harry Patch the last survivor of

:46:43.:46:48.

the lot. Gradually they faded away. Then the survivors of World War II

:46:48.:46:53.

started to look pretty old too, as my noble friend Baroness reminded

:46:53.:46:59.

me claiming to be one of the only survivor in this House of those who

:46:59.:47:09.
:47:09.:47:10.

gave great service to their nation Pretty grey first thing on Tuesday

:47:10.:47:14.

morning. Another drab start to proceedings, but unlike Monday,

:47:14.:47:17.

hopefully it will get brighter during the day, across parts of the

:47:18.:47:21.

south and parts of Wales. On Monday North West England and Scotland

:47:21.:47:25.

should be favoured for a little bit of sunshine. To the east of the

:47:25.:47:28.

Pennines it will stay mostly overcast. A lot of cloud through

:47:28.:47:32.

the Midland, brightening up a touch through East Anglia and the

:47:32.:47:35.

southern counties of England wrecks should get a little bit of sunshine

:47:36.:47:42.

-- we should get a little bit of sunshine like Monday, west Wales

:47:42.:47:45.

will see sunshine. Elsewhere cloud year, but brighter than Monday. A

:47:45.:47:49.

lot of cloud covering Northern Ireland as well. But again, along

:47:49.:47:53.

the north coast it may well cheer up, temperatures could respond up

:47:53.:47:57.

to maybe 12 degrees. North West Scotland will be favoured for

:47:57.:48:00.

sunshine. Not so much fog around here, as there was during Monday.

:48:00.:48:04.

The eastern side of Scotland does stay rather grey. Wednesday, it

:48:04.:48:07.

should be brighter, again so a better chance of seeing sunshine.

:48:07.:48:11.

We could just see thickening cloud bringing rain into Northern Ireland

:48:11.:48:14.

later on Wednesday, that cloud could bring rain into parts of

:48:14.:48:19.

South Wales and maybe the far South-West of England. We will see

:48:19.:48:22.

the cloud increasing, across Devon and Cornwall, rain arriving here

:48:22.:48:27.

Presented by Jeremy Paxman.

With talk of a two-speed Europe emerging from the eurozone financial crisis, Newsnight asks what Britain's future relations with the European Union are likely to be.


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