18/11/2011 Newsnight


18/11/2011

With Gavin Esler. David Cameron and Angela Merkel have acknowledged they have differences over the eurozone crisis. Can they overcome them?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 18/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Welcome to Europe in need, please put your hands in your pockets to

:00:08.:00:12.

help pay off the eurozone's debts. The subject discussed by David

:00:12.:00:15.

Cameron and Angela Merkel today. But is there, at last, any glimmer

:00:15.:00:20.

of a common solution to the problem which could sink us all? My German

:00:20.:00:29.

isn't that good, I think bazooka is a superwafer, no, someone is

:00:29.:00:33.

shaking their head. We will discuss what it means with Conservative MP,

:00:33.:00:37.

Daniel Hannan, German banker, Schmieding, and the journalist,

:00:37.:00:42.

Bronwen Maddox. Sepp Blatter says sorry for suggesting racism could

:00:42.:00:46.

be settled with a handshake. The former England player, Sol Campbell

:00:46.:00:50.

is here to discuss, racism, bigotry and the football leadership. Two

:00:51.:00:54.

British nationals killed in Pakistan, by an American drone

:00:54.:01:04.
:01:04.:01:10.

strike. How many British volunteers are fighting for Al-Qaeda?

:01:10.:01:13.

Good evening, eurozone leaders aren't as cuddly as Pudsey, but

:01:13.:01:19.

they are looking for every euroor - - Uri owe pound you can spare.

:01:19.:01:22.

Someone will have to stump up. The leader of the biggest economy

:01:22.:01:26.

inside the eurozone, Germany, and the biggest economy outside the

:01:26.:01:31.

eurozone, Britain, met today to try to figure out, what short of an

:01:31.:01:35.

appeal for worldwide loose change, could solve our problems. They were

:01:35.:01:38.

more fluent in decribing the problems than fixing them.

:01:38.:01:41.

OK, you're British, you're in Germany for a crucial meeting, what

:01:41.:01:48.

is the subject you want to avoid? My German isn't that good, bazooka

:01:48.:01:57.

is a superwafer, no, someone is shake their head. The German for

:01:57.:02:00.

bazooka is "tank terror", which is possibly not where you want to go

:02:00.:02:06.

in a vital press conference. But, unfortunately, Europe's financial

:02:06.:02:10.

Baz Zach ka, and its fail -- bazooka, and its failure to fire,

:02:10.:02:17.

is the subject between Britain and Germany. TRANSLATION: As to the

:02:17.:02:23.

question of what choifs weapons are used to deal with financial markets,

:02:23.:02:25.

I believe credibility is gained by using the force and strength you

:02:25.:02:28.

have. The British say we have to use all the force available, I

:02:28.:02:33.

think that is right. But one should not pretend to be more powerful

:02:33.:02:39.

than one actually is. At Brussels, in October, Mrs Measuring mrbg on

:02:39.:02:47.

agreement on the booze zook -- Mrs Merkel won agreed on the bazooka, a

:02:47.:02:55.

one trillion bailout from the EFSF fired from Germany. It went wrong

:02:55.:02:59.

at Cannes, no-one would lend the money. Mr Cameron began pushing for

:02:59.:03:03.

the European Central Bank to lend the money, firing its own bazooka,

:03:03.:03:07.

but it won't. In the meantime, the Governments of Italy and Greece

:03:07.:03:11.

fell. And today, the boss of the European Central Bank said that he

:03:11.:03:21.
:03:21.:03:23.

would not be firing the bazooka any time soon. We are four weeks after

:03:23.:03:26.

the summit that agreed on the leverageing of resources by factor

:03:26.:03:31.

of up to four or five, that declared the EFSF would be fully

:03:31.:03:35.

operational and all the tools would be used in an effective way to

:03:35.:03:40.

ensure financial stability in the euro area. Where is the

:03:40.:03:43.

implementation of these long- standing decisions? Which

:03:43.:03:49.

translates as, you fire your own bazooka! Germany knows saving the

:03:49.:03:54.

euro is vital to its own survival as a manufacturing and export giant.

:03:54.:03:58.

But its workers believe prosperity and stability come from low

:03:58.:04:03.

inflation and a credible Central Bank. So using the ECB to save the

:04:03.:04:10.

euro, is, for Mrs Merkel, politically impossible. I think if

:04:10.:04:16.

Merkel agrees to involve the ECB, which is against the EU treaty, by

:04:16.:04:20.

the way, she will go through a vote of confidence and she will lose it,

:04:20.:04:25.

and the Government will break down. Instead, the Germans are

:04:25.:04:28.

concentrating on a long-term plan. The German position was outlined in

:04:28.:04:32.

a document from the German Foreign Office, leaked to the Telegraph. It

:04:32.:04:36.

calls for political union, a stability commissioner with power

:04:36.:04:42.

to intervene in national budgets, and the power to impose orderly

:04:42.:04:47.

default and exit on eurozone members. The problem s that needs a

:04:47.:04:53.

treaty change, and as the Mercedes deposited Mr Cameron in Berlin, it

:04:53.:04:56.

is clear the Germans are determined to do it with or without us.

:04:56.:05:00.

German position is, we would like to keep the British in, we would

:05:00.:05:04.

rather do the new treaty with all 27, it is simple letter and easier,

:05:04.:05:08.

however, if the British are going to be -- simpler and easier,

:05:08.:05:13.

however if the British are going to be demanding on powers coming back,

:05:13.:05:17.

then we will go along with a eurozone treaty with a few hours

:05:17.:05:21.

who want to join the eurozone. There is diverge begins between

:05:21.:05:26.

Paris and Berlin I I have -- deverence between Paris and Berlin.

:05:26.:05:33.

But I have no doubt if the British block the treaty, the Germans will

:05:33.:05:37.

go ahead with something that doesn't include the British. It is

:05:37.:05:41.

not whether Britain is in or out of the group that writes the treaty,

:05:41.:05:45.

the problem is time, the Germans are determined to find a strategic

:05:45.:05:49.

solution, the markets need an immediate solution. In the end, it

:05:49.:05:54.

comes down a clash between two implacable forces, the bond market,

:05:54.:05:59.

and the German electorate. That has left David Cameron struggling to

:05:59.:06:03.

contain his frustration, and even some German commentators are

:06:03.:06:08.

prepared to accept there is a timing issue. She said today in

:06:08.:06:12.

Berlin, "step by step", while the British Prime Minister is talking

:06:12.:06:18.

about a bazooka, it is a crisis, as you say, markets move in seconds.

:06:18.:06:22.

You have to take the decisions now, you can't wait. In this sense,

:06:22.:06:29.

calling Mrs Merkel Madame Dithering is quite the right term. It is not

:06:29.:06:32.

changed, she is getting a bit more quick in her decision, she's still

:06:32.:06:36.

very slow. Having that in mind, Germany is the decisive and crucial

:06:36.:06:45.

player in this game, you could call it a bit scary, yeah.

:06:45.:06:50.

It was Mr Cameron who wanted this meeting, diplomatically he came

:06:50.:06:55.

away with a smile and a handshake, for all his talk of a bazooka, it

:06:55.:07:01.

is Germany that le l decide if and when it gets fired -- will decide

:07:01.:07:06.

if and when it gets fired. Have German relations improved, with us

:07:06.:07:11.

is Holger Schmieding from the Berenberg Bank, and Bronwen Maddox

:07:11.:07:15.

and Daniel Hannan, the Conservative Are Britain and Germany any closer

:07:15.:07:18.

tonight as a result of the meetings? At least to what we have

:07:18.:07:21.

heard about the meetings, they probably have not moved much closer,

:07:21.:07:28.

no. They are far apart on major issues. The German conclusion from

:07:28.:07:31.

the eurozone crisis that we need more Europe, the British conclusion

:07:31.:07:36.

seems to be we need to move a bit further apart from the eurozone. So

:07:36.:07:40.

that is a significant clash, and as to technical details, financial

:07:40.:07:45.

markets, transaction tax, they don't seem to agree. Do you accept

:07:45.:07:49.

that analysis, that in other words, there are the smaller things like

:07:49.:07:53.

the financial transaction tax, sometimes called the Tobin tax, but

:07:53.:07:56.

on the big picture they are miles apart? I think that is right. I

:07:56.:08:02.

thought it was a fabulously disingenious speech by David

:08:02.:08:07.

Cameron. He rightly said Europe's problems could be sorted by

:08:07.:08:11.

pledging enormous amounts of money, and he doesn't want Britain to do

:08:11.:08:15.

that, he wants the Germans to do it. And the Germans are threatening

:08:15.:08:18.

saying if you don't join if we might come at the City of London

:08:18.:08:22.

with transaction tax. Why do you think the British and Germans are

:08:22.:08:28.

so far apart on this, where as on some big picture matters like

:08:28.:08:32.

competitiveness and fiscal discipline, you know, not rewarding

:08:32.:08:35.

bad behaviour, moral hazarz, philosophically, they should be a

:08:35.:08:40.

lot closer, shouldn't they? If it weren't for the wretched EU we

:08:40.:08:44.

would be getting on famously, they are the country with whom we have

:08:44.:08:48.

most in common in continental Europe. It is not for us to decide

:08:48.:08:51.

how the eurozone settles its problems. If they were to ask my

:08:51.:08:55.

advice, I would say allow countries to leave, allow each country to

:08:55.:08:59.

suit its monetary policy to its own need, allow the Mediterranean

:08:59.:09:04.

states to price their way back into the market. I'm not a Greek, German

:09:04.:09:07.

or Austrian or Finnish legislator, if they have made the decision to

:09:07.:09:11.

keep the euro together, at whatever cost, that is matter for them. What

:09:11.:09:15.

I kind extraordinary is Britain is not only investing political

:09:15.:09:20.

capital in proposing this idea, but actual capital. We are on the hook

:09:20.:09:24.

so far for �12.5 billion in the Irish, Greek and Portuguese

:09:24.:09:28.

bailouts, that is before you get to Italy. Is that a problem for

:09:28.:09:33.

Germany, to go back to the start of what Hannan was suggesting there,

:09:33.:09:37.

that actually, on many issues fissofically, should be much closer

:09:37.:09:41.

to Britain, and if it wasn't, -- philosophically, should be much

:09:41.:09:47.

closer to Britain, and if it wasn't for the EU, links with Greece and

:09:47.:09:51.

Italy, there wouldn't be the problems? The problem is Britain

:09:51.:09:55.

has refused to actually join in. The Germans would love the British

:09:55.:09:58.

in, more involved in Europe, ideally within the eurozone, at

:09:58.:10:03.

least that was the original German idea, so that within the European

:10:03.:10:05.

institutions the kind of philosophical similarities between

:10:05.:10:09.

Britain and Germany, more competitiveness, would gain the

:10:09.:10:13.

upper hand. But Britain has decided to stay some what aloof. Could I

:10:13.:10:22.

suggest you are as likely to get as -- that as likely as Hannan is to

:10:22.:10:27.

get the renegotiation of the treaties? The treaties are to be

:10:27.:10:30.

renegotiated, and there is a solution to the German and British

:10:30.:10:34.

difficulty, namely that Britain agrees to pass an amendment to the

:10:34.:10:38.

EU treaties that allows Germany and France and the other 15 countries

:10:38.:10:41.

to move closer together, and in return Germany and France will

:10:41.:10:45.

allow Britain to have a few more opt-outs. Would that be good enough

:10:45.:10:49.

for you, what do you want on that? Ultimately it shouldn't be for me

:10:49.:10:53.

to decide, or for you to decide, or even Angela Merkel and David

:10:53.:10:57.

Cameron to decide, it should be more the electorate as a whole to

:10:57.:11:00.

decide. Ultimately whatever renegotiation comes out will need

:11:00.:11:05.

be put to the country with a "no" vote treated as a vote to leave the

:11:05.:11:08.

EU. That is the only guarantee. Something I would like is something

:11:08.:11:12.

along the lines of the Swiss, you are in the free market but you have

:11:12.:11:15.

opted out of the political structures that go with it. You are

:11:15.:11:19.

affected by it, because it is so big, we would be affected by it, we

:11:19.:11:23.

wouldn't have a voice in it, like the Swiss? Well, they seem to be

:11:23.:11:29.

scraping by some kind of miserable half existence out there, ditto the

:11:29.:11:33.

Norwegians. Of course we would lose influence over the internal affairs

:11:33.:11:37.

of the countries in the tighter union. That is unquestionably the

:11:37.:11:41.

case, just as we have no internal influence over the affairs of Japan,

:11:41.:11:44.

Singapore, or the Congo. That is the price you pay. But as long as

:11:44.:11:51.

you are in a free market, within the EFTA terms and the WTO terms,

:11:51.:11:54.

that is what most people in the country would vote for, that is

:11:54.:11:59.

what we thought we were voting for in 1975. This is fascinating, we

:11:59.:12:04.

have these two countries, we have accepted there is a degree of

:12:04.:12:08.

philosophical agreement, these two questions are completely totally

:12:08.:12:12.

poles apart? They are completely different. I think there is a

:12:12.:12:16.

philosophical difference between Germany and Britain on views of

:12:16.:12:20.

Europe. Then there is the very sharp difference that we began this

:12:20.:12:23.

discussion with about who will pay for this, that is really the first

:12:23.:12:30.

one. At heart I think this is rather a brutal clash about money.

:12:30.:12:33.

But then the philosophy comes after. That it is dangerous game for

:12:33.:12:37.

Germany and France to push Britain to the point where Cameron's

:12:37.:12:42.

yooptics begin to say let's take Britain right out. -- Euro-sceptics

:12:42.:12:46.

begin to say let as take Britain out. In Germany do you feel you

:12:46.:12:49.

have to be anchored into it, and you can't do what the European

:12:49.:12:52.

Central Bank does. Mario Draghi, not just the British, is suggestk a

:12:52.:12:56.

real lack of leadership and you have -- suggesting a real lack of

:12:56.:13:00.

leadership and you have to get your act together, you meaning Germany?

:13:00.:13:05.

Going back to the debt crisis, the big difference between the eurozone

:13:05.:13:07.

and Britain is Britain has a Central Bank which helps the

:13:07.:13:11.

Government pay its debts, massively, where as the European Central Bank

:13:11.:13:14.

is refusing that. If the European Central Bank were to behave like

:13:14.:13:17.

the Bank of England, the eurozone debt crisis would probably be over

:13:17.:13:21.

in a second. So, indeed, there is a philosophical difference in how you

:13:21.:13:26.

treat your Central Bank, and how your Central Bank is viewed.

:13:26.:13:30.

there, for the other part of that, which we heard in Paul Mason's

:13:30.:13:33.

report, is there something about the German character, or the

:13:33.:13:37.

political system, which means Angela Merkel cannot be as decisive

:13:37.:13:41.

as people want her to be on this? She has to take a significant part

:13:42.:13:46.

of her voters with her, on all the major things. That indeed means she

:13:47.:13:51.

can't move very far. She cannot, for instance, just endorse the ECB

:13:51.:13:54.

buying loads of Government bonds, without having some backing, some

:13:54.:13:58.

where else in the country. My view remains, if worst comes to worst,

:13:58.:14:03.

and we may be there within a few weeks, the European Central Bank

:14:03.:14:07.

will intervene massively. Angela Merkel will probably back them, but,

:14:07.:14:12.

then we will have a little uproar in Germany, still the thing will be

:14:12.:14:16.

settled. Do you share that view, that is the likeliest thing that

:14:16.:14:18.

will happen, in other words, we will muddle through and there will

:14:18.:14:24.

be a lot of mudling, and not much through? I think it is the

:14:24.:14:27.

likeliest thing, I don't think it is the right thing to do. I'm not

:14:27.:14:32.

fan of quanative easing in this country, inflation is a way of

:14:32.:14:37.

punishing people who have done the right thing, and I wouldn't wish it

:14:37.:14:43.

to allies in the continent. I think it is not right to impoverish

:14:43.:14:47.

people which the project means, it is better if the countries were

:14:47.:14:49.

able to suit their economies to their needs, and very soon the

:14:49.:14:56.

problems would be over. But the elites of Europe are sacrificing

:14:56.:15:00.

the prosperity of their people for this European dream. Do you think

:15:00.:15:03.

David Cameron's voice in Europe is any stronger than it was this

:15:03.:15:11.

morning, or the opposite? I think it is stronger than it seems. There

:15:11.:15:15.

is all this talk of Britain on the side lines, but Germany and France

:15:15.:15:19.

do want Britain to play a part in this. That is what today's press

:15:19.:15:23.

conference and the jokes were about. Trying to make sure that Britain

:15:23.:15:28.

helps out. With money as well as anything else. The likelihood of

:15:28.:15:30.

that, the implication of everything we have been discussing is it is

:15:30.:15:36.

not going to happen, in which case. It won't happen unless we get much

:15:36.:15:39.

closer to a crisis. On that narrow point about David Cameron's

:15:39.:15:44.

influence, or the UK's influence, now and in the future? The British

:15:44.:15:47.

influence on events in the continent is extremely small, to

:15:47.:15:50.

put it mildly. I don't think it is the eurozone asking Britain for

:15:50.:15:54.

money, what the eurozone is simply asking, dear Britain, we in the

:15:54.:15:57.

eurozone want to forge a closer European, for that we have to

:15:57.:16:03.

change the EU treaty, and please, dear Britain, ratify the new EU

:16:03.:16:07.

treaties which will help us in the eurozone to integrate in the way we

:16:07.:16:10.

want. Which is saying, Britain please don't get in the way. But,

:16:10.:16:15.

do you think Britain speaks absolutely with one voice on this,

:16:15.:16:18.

Nick Clegg, a coalition, he has a slightly different view and

:16:18.:16:21.

attitude and has been commenting on this today? But that's the case in

:16:21.:16:25.

every country. You have different opinions, in Britain you have

:16:25.:16:28.

interesting clashes between Euro- sceptics and some remaining sort of

:16:28.:16:32.

Europhiles, but that is normal politics. This was making it sound

:16:32.:16:36.

as if we have months and months to sort this out, to redraw the

:16:36.:16:39.

constitution. There is a crisis between where we are now, and the

:16:40.:16:44.

kind of constitutional redrawing that you are decribing. In that

:16:44.:16:48.

crisis it seems to me they do need Britain. The two points is the

:16:48.:16:51.

immediate crisis is ultimately for the European Central Bank to solve.

:16:52.:16:56.

The long-term issues are then for the new EU, rewritten EU treaties.

:16:56.:17:02.

Thank you very much all of you. The European Union is not the only

:17:02.:17:05.

international organisation having difficulties, FIFA President, Sepp

:17:05.:17:09.

Blatter, seems to have moved seemlessly into the role recently

:17:10.:17:13.

vacated by Silvio Berlusconi, managing to say some of the

:17:13.:17:23.
:17:23.:17:24.

stupidist things on world stage. He seems to have been suggesting that

:17:24.:17:28.

racism issues can be solved by handshake on the pitch. Is it going

:17:28.:17:31.

way? A man who used to be President of

:17:31.:17:41.

the Society of Friends of Suspenders, might not adapt to 21st

:17:41.:17:44.

century customs, after advising female players to wear tighter

:17:44.:17:49.

shorts to get more attention. And telling gay fans going to Qatar, to

:17:49.:17:55.

avoid having sex, the latest Blatter blunder was offensive in a

:17:55.:17:58.

different way. There is no racism, there is maybe one of the players

:17:58.:18:01.

to another, he has a word or gesture, which is not the correct

:18:01.:18:05.

one. Also the one who is affected by that, he should say it is a game,

:18:05.:18:10.

we are in the game, and at the end of the game we shake hands, this

:18:10.:18:13.

can happen. Blatter's comments followed allegations by the

:18:13.:18:17.

Manchester United player, Patrice Evra, that he had been racially

:18:17.:18:24.

abused by Liverpool's Luis Suarez. The Uraguayan has been charged by

:18:24.:18:28.

the FA. With similar claims against John Terry still are under

:18:28.:18:31.

investigation. The timing could be more sensitive. Today there was an

:18:31.:18:37.

attempt to calm the storm. sorry, I regret that my statements

:18:37.:18:47.
:18:47.:18:49.

earlier this week have resulted in an unfortunate situation, very much.

:18:49.:18:52.

Assuming Mr Blatter does not return to the presidency of Friends of

:18:52.:18:55.

Suspenders, he might be sticking to his script a little more in future.

:18:56.:19:01.

Here to react to all of that is the former England, Arsenal and Spurs

:19:01.:19:04.

footballer. It was a pretty groveling apology, it looked

:19:04.:19:10.

prepared, is that enough? For me it doesn't wash. For the head of FIFA

:19:11.:19:16.

to come out with something like that, for me it is shocking. It is

:19:16.:19:20.

astonishing. I'm astonished he's still in the job. In any other

:19:20.:19:24.

industry, if the head of the company comes up with those kind of

:19:24.:19:31.

comments, he's sacked, he's gone in a few days time. For me it really

:19:31.:19:37.

shows FIFA, how they are as a body. The comments he came out with, the

:19:38.:19:44.

ramifications of what he said, you know, it filters down into grass

:19:44.:19:48.

roots football. Little kids playing football, Sunday league, you can

:19:48.:19:54.

say whatever you want, be racist to another opponent and then after the

:19:54.:19:57.

game shake the hand and it is all over. That is not right. Just to be

:19:57.:20:01.

clear, you think he should resign, and if he shouldn't resign he

:20:01.:20:06.

should be kicked out? I think he should step down and do the

:20:06.:20:08.

honourable thing. When things happen on the pitch, sometimes

:20:09.:20:13.

people do stupid things in the heat of the moment, is that any excuse,

:20:13.:20:17.

if that happens on the pitch between players? Yeah, every single

:20:17.:20:24.

time something happens, the heat of the moment, you keep on, are you

:20:24.:20:27.

allowed to racially abuse someone in the heat of the moment? No. If

:20:27.:20:31.

that is the first thing that comes into your mind, not at all, no.

:20:31.:20:35.

do you get round that, there is different types of racial abuse,

:20:35.:20:40.

when you move from Tottenham to Arsenal, you suffered quite a lot

:20:40.:20:43.

of chanting, and abuse. Is it different when it comes from the

:20:43.:20:47.

fans or when it comes on the pitch from another person doing the same?

:20:47.:20:51.

I think from another player is definitely even more hurtful, it is

:20:51.:20:55.

sickening, it is disgusting. So for him to say you can just wash it off

:20:55.:21:02.

with the shake of a hand, for me it is unbelievable. I can't believe

:21:02.:21:11.

no-one has really picked this up, Government wise, sponsors-wise, how

:21:11.:21:16.

can you have the head of the body of football of the world, saying

:21:16.:21:21.

those comments. If he has said those comments, people are saying

:21:21.:21:25.

it is OK, he has said sorry, for me that is unbelievable. Are we in

:21:26.:21:28.

Britain, and the English game in particular, are we a bit different

:21:28.:21:31.

from the rest of the world. You know the reputation of Russia and

:21:31.:21:35.

Eastern Europe, sometimes in these matters it is not entirely pure, is

:21:35.:21:41.

it? Some of those countries have big problems it's the head, he

:21:41.:21:46.

should know better. He has compromised FIFA, big time. For me,

:21:46.:21:51.

the longer he actually stays at FIFA, I honestly think FIFA will

:21:51.:21:54.

become weaker. Does it have an effect, you suggested before, does

:21:54.:21:58.

it really have an effect on the grass roots of the game, 10, 11-

:21:58.:22:02.

year-olds? Yeah, I think kids are listening, Sunday league football,

:22:02.:22:08.

people like that. If you realise what he says,'s the head, all that

:22:08.:22:12.

seeps down, and you know, all these other games aren't policed properly

:22:12.:22:17.

you can get away with a lot of things in and around those kind of

:22:17.:22:22.

levels. If you hear the top guy saying, you can do whatever you

:22:22.:22:25.

want, be racist to player, it is a part of the game, as long as you

:22:25.:22:30.

say sorry afterwards, it is OK. Where are we going in football? For

:22:30.:22:34.

me he has flung football 40 years back. All the hard work, all the

:22:34.:22:38.

campaigners, Kick It Out, Show the Red Card, all their work for

:22:38.:22:41.

nothing. We don't know exactly what happened in the John Terry incident

:22:42.:22:45.

or the Suarez incident, we know they are being investigated. Do you

:22:45.:22:50.

think things have changed a lot in the game in this country at los?

:22:50.:22:58.

Most certainly. Are things a lot better? Yeah. Since the early 190s?

:22:58.:23:02.

I watched football before that, and heard all the comments and the past

:23:02.:23:07.

players talking about their experiences through the 1960s and

:23:07.:23:11.

1970s. Yeah it has definitely moved on. It is only because there is

:23:11.:23:17.

some people doing fantastic things up and down the country and

:23:17.:23:21.

campaigning to kick this out. It is only because of the hard work and

:23:21.:23:27.

the PFA, and the Football Association, and players, and the

:23:27.:23:33.

wider public, the English public have come together to nulify T it

:23:33.:23:37.

is not completely depon, but it is -- it has not completely gone, but

:23:37.:23:41.

it is better than the 70s for sure. We know the view of most people in

:23:41.:23:44.

England about what has happened over the World Cup and allegations

:23:44.:23:49.

of corruption and so on. Nobody seems to care what the British

:23:49.:23:57.

think? Do they in this? The trouble is, England across the water

:23:57.:24:02.

haven't the best reputation when it comes to talking to the other

:24:02.:24:09.

nations when it comes to football. I don't know why, I think they have

:24:09.:24:14.

to get the right man, FA side, to start talking to them and bring

:24:14.:24:18.

them closer. Thank you very much. We have long known that British

:24:18.:24:23.

nationals are fighting for the Taliban, and Al-Qaeda, in

:24:23.:24:27.

Afghanistan and Pakistan. There were persistent rumours of fighters

:24:27.:24:35.

with Birmingham accents and a copes was found with an Aston Villa tatoo.

:24:35.:24:40.

Today was revealed two British men were killed in drone strikes. One

:24:40.:24:44.

left Britain subject to a control order in 2007. What more do you

:24:44.:24:53.

know about this? Interesting, the first man, Ibrahim Adam, 24 years

:24:53.:24:57.

old from East London. He was on a control order, as you say, along

:24:57.:25:00.

with his brother, they both absconded on control orders. That

:25:01.:25:07.

is two brothers in that family. A third brother, their older brother,

:25:07.:25:12.

was called Anthony Garcia, he changed his name, this third

:25:12.:25:17.

brother was convicted of terrorism offences in 2007, connected to the

:25:18.:25:22.

operation about the crevice fertiliser bomb plot. We have three

:25:22.:25:25.

brothers closely linked to terrorist activities there. The

:25:25.:25:34.

second man named and killed in a drone attack, is Mohammed Azmer

:25:34.:25:40.

Khan, originally from Sheffield and then in London. He's said to be a

:25:40.:25:49.

brother of a man, Azmeil Abjar, killed last year in a drone attack

:25:49.:25:53.

in Pakistan. Do we have any more idea about how many similar case

:25:53.:25:58.

there is might be? There is a steady flow of young radicalised

:25:58.:26:01.

Muslim recruits from Great Britain into the north frontier province,

:26:01.:26:06.

the tribal areas, over a number of years. We have just late last year

:26:06.:26:12.

spoken to a family from Manchester, whose son, Umar Arshad, left the

:26:12.:26:17.

country, again, on the control order, they were deeply worried

:26:17.:26:21.

about him. We can hear from them now. He didn't seem well or himself.

:26:21.:26:25.

This happened very suddenly. It wasn't a space of you know a year

:26:25.:26:31.

or two years, it occurred within a month. His mind was being changed,

:26:31.:26:34.

because of the way he was being ruled by these individuals, or the

:26:34.:26:38.

gang. If they told him to sit down, he would sit down. If they stold

:26:38.:26:46.

told him to stand up, he would stand up. We could see how worried

:26:46.:26:49.

the brother and the father were there. I have spoken to the family

:26:49.:26:53.

today, there is no news where their relative is in Pakistan it's widely

:26:53.:26:57.

believed to have disappeared into Pakistan to be recruited by Jihadi

:26:57.:27:01.

groups, possibly linked to Al-Qaeda. I think this demonstrates that some

:27:01.:27:07.

families in Britain phrasing this awful prospect of lose -- facing

:27:07.:27:11.

this awful prospect of losing their young ones to Islamic Jihadists.

:27:11.:27:14.

young ones to Islamic Jihadists. The front pages now.

:27:14.:27:19.

The Times has 50% off council houses and also the story of the

:27:19.:27:26.

Natalie Wood case, waking the dead, LA police reopen the case. The FT

:27:26.:27:30.

has financial stories, the Northern Rock funds deal. The ECB hitting

:27:30.:27:34.

back over intervention calls and a picture of Angela Merkel and David

:27:34.:27:39.

Cameron translating each other's thoughts, I suspect. The Mirror has

:27:39.:27:49.
:27:49.:27:51.

ITV Daybreak dream team sacked, Adrian Chidldes and his pardon --

:27:51.:28:01.
:28:01.:28:09.

That's all from Newsnight tonight, Mark Kermode will present the

:28:09.:28:13.

review show in a minute. We will leave you with the news that one

:28:14.:28:19.

half of the Cosgrove Hall duo has died. The list of his cartoons goes

:28:20.:28:27.

on for a very long time. Here is a # He's the greatest

:28:27.:28:30.

# He's fantastic # Wherever there is danger

:28:30.:28:37.