26/01/2012 Newsnight


26/01/2012

Analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Cutting taxes and not just spending. Does Nick Clegg's pledge to help families amount to an economic Plan B?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The Deputy Prime Minister says the pressure on family finances has

:00:08.:00:13.

reached boiling point, and tax cuts now are the answer.

:00:13.:00:18.

In trying to rebuild the Lib Dem brand, is Nick Clegg tearing up his

:00:18.:00:21.

loyalty card. In terms of Government policy, this

:00:21.:00:26.

is, very definitely, an unexpected item in the bagging I can't

:00:26.:00:30.

remember.Is the coalition cracking -- area. Is the coalition cracking,

:00:30.:00:35.

we debate who is the fairest of them all. The shadow Health

:00:35.:00:43.

Minister quits the committee, Dorries and Diane Abbott here.

:00:43.:00:48.

Why do so many great and possibly not so great Britains turn down

:00:49.:00:54.

honours. I think the whole honours system is pathetic and received by

:00:55.:00:58.

pathetic people, except for my friend, Michael Cain. It all

:00:58.:01:03.

started here, will the next war be fought with keyboards and hard

:01:03.:01:08.

drives, that is what Britain's former spy chief thinks. We have to

:01:08.:01:13.

be super alert, super informed, have the highest level of expertise

:01:13.:01:22.

and make sure we are applying that. Good evening, budgets used to be

:01:22.:01:28.

secretive affairs, even prime ministers and Sunday newspapers

:01:28.:01:32.

were only told of the contents a few days in advance. Those days are

:01:32.:01:36.

long gone. In his speech Nick Clegg set out what amounted to a Lib Dem

:01:36.:01:40.

shopping list, with raising tax flesh holds right at the very top.

:01:40.:01:46.

He said -- thresholds right at the top. He said the Government had to

:01:46.:01:52.

choose whether tax breaks favoured the many or the few. Which begs the

:01:52.:01:56.

question of which sides the coalition partners are on.

:01:56.:02:00.

The Deputy Prime Minister was clearly in the mood to take risks,

:02:00.:02:04.

like bypassing a supermarket checkout with a bottle of water in

:02:04.:02:08.

his hand a chap got six months over the summer for. That no suggestion

:02:08.:02:13.

the water wasn't his, however, he is accused of trying to loop the

:02:13.:02:16.

budget. I don't believe George Osborne signed this off. I think

:02:16.:02:20.

he's trying to bounce the Conservatives. We do want the tax-

:02:20.:02:24.

free slice to go up to �10,000, it is in the coalition agreement,

:02:24.:02:29.

there is a time and place to do it. He has clearly said something to

:02:29.:02:33.

upset, let's rewind and find out. On this visit to a supermarket this

:02:33.:02:43.
:02:43.:02:44.

morning, Mr Clegg said he wanted a tax break for those on low pay

:02:44.:02:49.

have taken big steps to make sure basic rate tax-payers have money

:02:49.:02:55.

back in their pocket by April, the point at which they pay income tax

:02:55.:02:59.

will be raised. I want it raised further and faster to give more

:03:00.:03:04.

money back into the pockets of millions of working families in

:03:04.:03:07.

this country. The coalition is already committed to making sure

:03:07.:03:13.

nobody pays tax on their first �10,000 of income, by 2015. Now Mr

:03:13.:03:17.

Clegg says he wants to go further and faster. But, like the checkout

:03:17.:03:21.

staff, we are entitled to ask, how would you like to pay for that,

:03:21.:03:25.

Sir? We have to pay for it from the top. Ask people at the top, and

:03:25.:03:30.

there are many, many allowances and loopholes and exemptions at the top

:03:30.:03:33.

that only benefit very wealthy people, to pay a bit more, to pay

:03:33.:03:38.

more of their fair share, and use that money, penny for penny, pound-

:03:38.:03:42.

for-pound, to put money back in the pockets of hard working, hard

:03:42.:03:46.

pressed families in this country. Mr Clegg wants to bring in a

:03:46.:03:50.

mansion tax on homes worth more than �2 million. That is long been

:03:50.:03:57.

a Lib Dem policy. He wants to close unspecified loophole, but including

:03:57.:04:00.

higher rate tax relief on pension contributions. He will struggle to

:04:00.:04:03.

win over Conservative backbenchers. I worked in the Treasury in the

:04:03.:04:08.

1990, I tell you, every Chancellor since then has been told by Civil

:04:08.:04:13.

Service number crunchers we can get X billion by abolishing top rate

:04:13.:04:17.

pension relief. Every Chancellor has said no, for a simple reason,

:04:17.:04:21.

it is toxic. It hits the striving middle-class who want to save and

:04:21.:04:24.

do the right thing. That wouldn't get past Conservative backbenchers

:04:24.:04:28.

in a hurry. Talk to people close to Nick Clegg and ask, has this been

:04:28.:04:32.

cleared with the Treasury and there is a pause. The Treasury, they

:04:32.:04:38.

point out, is no longer a monolit, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury,

:04:38.:04:43.

a Lib Dem thinks it is a wonderful idea. OK, you say, has it been

:04:43.:04:48.

cleared by the Chancellor? It has been shared with him, they say. Is

:04:48.:04:52.

it Government policy, you ask, Government policy, another pause,

:04:52.:04:54.

Government policy, we are still very much learning how this

:04:55.:05:03.

coalition business works. I think we can take that as a no. It is all

:05:03.:05:07.

nonsense, the idea that a tax cut of any size can be funded without

:05:07.:05:11.

actually hurting anyone, or increasing borrowing, which is what

:05:11.:05:16.

Ed Balls wants to do. It is nonsense. In that sense, how much

:05:16.:05:19.

George Osborne thinks it is nice to give people tax cut, it won't make

:05:19.:05:23.

the budget if it can't be funded? This is positioning to put the

:05:23.:05:27.

Liberal Democrats on the right side of the one issue that actually has

:05:27.:05:30.

any cut through or salience, which is they are in favour of a tax cut

:05:30.:05:35.

that favours the lower paid, even if it doesn't. But people like it,

:05:35.:05:41.

and so Nick Clegg is positioning himself to looks a if he's pressing

:05:41.:05:45.

George Osborne to go further and faster in giving tax relief to the

:05:45.:05:48.

lower paid. The debate about tax fairness is

:05:49.:05:54.

never very far away. But the Deputy Prime Minister picked a good day to

:05:54.:05:58.

talk about taxing the rich, because today we heard, Stephen Hester, the

:05:59.:06:03.

CEO of the Royal Bank of Scotland, is to be paid a bonus worth

:06:03.:06:09.

�963,000. If Stephen Hester wants to leave RBS and set up a fantastic

:06:09.:06:13.

business, let's say here in Plymouth, which ends up employing

:06:13.:06:18.

2,000 people, and makes him extremely rich man, great, go a do

:06:18.:06:24.

it. If he's so brilliant, let him go and do. That's working for a

:06:24.:06:29.

company which is five sixths boind the taxpayer, he has to think like

:06:29.:06:35.

a public servant, not one lining his own pocket. There may not be

:06:35.:06:39.

much overlap of a millionaire public sector banker, and your

:06:40.:06:43.

average hard-pressed supermarket shopper, today, though, the deputy

:06:43.:06:50.

fraim Prime Minister came up with a policy he thinks deals with both.

:06:50.:06:54.

Whether in reality it can work, that is another matter. With me now,

:06:54.:06:57.

the Conservative MP, Matthew Hancock, Norman Lamb, the chief

:06:57.:07:02.

political adviser to Nick Clegg, and shadow Treasury minister, Chris

:07:02.:07:06.

Leslie. Matthew Hancock, it is highly irregular la, but you are

:07:06.:07:13.

delighted I'm sure, it -- irregular, but you are delighted I'm sure, it

:07:13.:07:18.

must seem as if this is ready-made? It was there in the coalition. The

:07:18.:07:22.

two parties want to raise the tax threshold and get money into

:07:22.:07:26.

pockets. We are saying it will be up to �10,000 in this budget?

:07:26.:07:29.

is not what Nick Clegg is saying. But the direction of travel is very

:07:29.:07:33.

clear, It is widely supported on the Conservative benches. If it is

:07:33.:07:41.

not going to be by 2015, is it this year, this budget, the next budget?

:07:41.:07:45.

Nick Clegg set a very large bright kite flying today, which indicated

:07:45.:07:50.

to most ordinary people, that, guess what, it could happen in the

:07:50.:07:54.

next budget? Who knows, the budget hasn't been written. Presumably

:07:54.:07:58.

Nick Clegg didn't do this without any consultation? As the film said,

:07:58.:08:04.

it has been shared by the Treasury, with the Treasury. It is

:08:04.:08:07.

about...Did George Osborne say it was OK for Nick Clegg to say this?

:08:07.:08:10.

It is not a question of having to be cleared. Nick Clegg, as Deputy

:08:10.:08:14.

Prime Minister, can say what he wants about Liberal Democrat

:08:14.:08:18.

priorities. This was in the Liberal Democrat manifesto, one of the key

:08:18.:08:21.

priorities at the election. It went into the coalition agreement.

:08:21.:08:25.

was agreed in the coalition, as far as I understand, is it would be

:08:25.:08:28.

implemented by 2015. If that was so, why the urgency n a supermarket

:08:28.:08:34.

this morning? I will tell you why. Here and now families on low and

:08:34.:08:37.

middle incomes are being squeezed. That is what he said, if that is

:08:37.:08:41.

the case, isn't he giving them false hope, if it is not going to

:08:41.:08:47.

happen in this budget, there is no point in telling family it is 2015?

:08:47.:08:51.

We are urging for it to be implemented quicker than previously

:08:51.:08:54.

thought. Because of the challenge ordinary families are suffering now.

:08:54.:08:58.

I know what your reason is. What I'm asking you is how quickly,

:08:58.:09:03.

there is no point in doing it today. Nick Clegg is either desperate for

:09:03.:09:06.

a headline or he's on to something? We want significant movement in

:09:06.:09:11.

this budget. We want to get as much as we can of this raising of the

:09:11.:09:15.

threshold, as quickly as possible. He's trying to bounce him? No, this

:09:15.:09:19.

is a negotiation. Is he trying to bounce him? Let me make this point.

:09:19.:09:21.

It is a setting out of Liberal Democrat priorities. And I will

:09:22.:09:26.

tell you this, it is also creating a real incentive to work for people

:09:26.:09:32.

on low pay, if you cut the tax rate, that they are bearing at the moment.

:09:32.:09:37.

Are you the dog in this hunt, Chris Leslie? It is beginning to dawn on

:09:38.:09:41.

them that some action is needed to help those squeezed at the moment,

:09:41.:09:47.

fine, it is about time they realise they needed to take action. Do you

:09:47.:09:51.

support this. Norman Lamb, the question you are asking is do you

:09:51.:09:54.

support this? The question to you is, when is it going to happen. I

:09:54.:09:58.

presume Chris Leslie does support the idea of raising the threshold

:09:58.:10:03.

to �10,000, but when? Some action is needed whether it is this, we

:10:03.:10:07.

would prefer VAT reduction, temporarily to help people. Nothing

:10:07.:10:11.

was done. Do you support this? There are benefits, but it doesn't

:10:11.:10:14.

help pensioners or all those people unemployed you are putting on the

:10:14.:10:18.

dole. We would have to look at the details of it. It shouldn't have

:10:18.:10:22.

taken the economy going into reverse to wake up Nick Clegg.

:10:22.:10:25.

There is panic here in the Government. This was what was on

:10:25.:10:29.

offer, would you support it? will not vote against a tax change,

:10:29.:10:34.

except for the fact we would prefer the VAT removal. Labour did

:10:34.:10:38.

nothing...You Have a lot of voters who voted for the coalition, who

:10:38.:10:42.

didn't vote for the coalition but have a coalition. This is like a

:10:42.:10:46.

dog's breakfast. It sounds like Nick Clegg goes to the supermarket,

:10:46.:10:49.

thinks better get one over George Osborne on this, make sure I'm

:10:49.:10:54.

ahead of the pack, I might have it signed off, but I will nail it as

:10:54.:10:58.

it is. You are frustrated there is a lot of coalition unity on this,

:10:58.:11:03.

it is palpable. We have a Labour representative over there, when

:11:03.:11:09.

Labour cancelled the 10p tax rate, doubling tax on the low paid.

:11:09.:11:15.

start bringing that in. We both want to help low paid people.

:11:15.:11:24.

you get to the threshold of �10,000, it will cost between �9-�10 billion.

:11:24.:11:28.

Nick Clegg said today, the coalition has to decide where it

:11:28.:11:33.

stands, it is not about helping the wealthy few but the hard working

:11:33.:11:36.

many. These are the signals he's sending out, how will it be paid

:11:36.:11:42.

for? It has to be paid for, it can't be paid for by borrowing. The

:11:42.:11:47.

top 1%, the incomes and wealth of the top 1% have soared away. What

:11:47.:11:53.

about a bankers' tax. He said he was happy with the filthy rich.

:11:53.:12:01.

What about the bankers' bonuses. closing the allowances the wealthy

:12:01.:12:04.

exploit. Is that what you want to do, get the top 1% and make them

:12:04.:12:11.

pay for it? I'm very proud that this Government is putting almost a

:12:11.:12:15.

billion pounds into tackling tax avoidance, and making sure the

:12:15.:12:19.

people at the top pay their fair share. I agree that should be part

:12:19.:12:23.

of it. We have to find the money. We know you have to find the money

:12:23.:12:30.

to do these things. For instance, you can't both support it, as Chris

:12:30.:12:38.

pro-ports to do, and not crack -- purports to do and not crackdown on

:12:38.:12:45.

benefits. Are you going to raise it to �10,000? Ter tackling tax

:12:45.:12:53.

avoidance at the top and tapping benefits at the bottom. Chris

:12:53.:12:57.

Leslie, the VAT cut, is that all you have to offer, the VAT cut?

:12:57.:13:02.

want urgent help now, VAT would be good. This is a synthetic row

:13:02.:13:06.

between two Government members of power. They have increased VAT and

:13:06.:13:13.

cut tax credits. We have to get the the chaos of the last Labour

:13:13.:13:16.

Government. Let's look at fairness, if it was a Labour Government,

:13:16.:13:22.

would Stephen Hester be getting �963,000 bonus? No, I will tell you

:13:22.:13:26.

why, because the share price of RBS has fallen by a third. Their main

:13:26.:13:30.

job was to lend to businesses, I want to hear Matthew Hancock

:13:30.:13:34.

justify the decision of the Prime Minister, by the way, to award �963

:13:34.:13:39.

though though can you justify it? Justify it please? The way this

:13:39.:13:44.

bonus was signed off, was set up by the Labour Party. The board had to

:13:44.:13:48.

sign it off under the system set up by the Labour Party. Are you happy

:13:48.:13:53.

with it? I wish that it was lower. I'm not in favour. Are you happy

:13:53.:13:57.

with the bonus that Stephen Hester was handed? I like most people

:13:57.:14:01.

would feel deeply uncomfortable with a bonus that side. It is a

:14:01.:14:04.

public bank? I don't know the details of the contractural terms.

:14:05.:14:08.

It was clearly established to provide a significant bonus under

:14:08.:14:12.

the last Labour Government. going to have to stop you there, it

:14:12.:14:16.

is right out of time. It may be unfair, but we have to stop.

:14:16.:14:20.

A row over abortion counselling has been rumbling around Westminster

:14:20.:14:24.

since September, when MPs voted against proposals to stop abortion

:14:24.:14:28.

providers offering counselling. But today, the shadow health

:14:28.:14:33.

spokeswoman, Diane Abbott, quit the cross-party committee set up after

:14:33.:14:36.

that vote to set up abortion services, claiming it was a front

:14:36.:14:42.

for driving through the anti-choice lobbyists' preferred option. You

:14:42.:14:48.

have been following this. Why the explosion today? It goes back to

:14:48.:14:51.

Nadine Dorries's amendment originally, she wanted independent

:14:51.:14:56.

advice for women wanting abortions, not from the provider, before an

:14:56.:14:59.

abortion. The question is what is independent advice and does it

:14:59.:15:01.

exist. We investigated that back in August. We looked at the groups

:15:01.:15:06.

considered by the Government. In lots of cases the advice they were

:15:06.:15:10.

giving was anything but impartial. We accessed the training manuals of

:15:10.:15:14.

the biggest provider Care Confidential, and abortion was

:15:14.:15:18.

described as a sin and a wickedness. Will these groups still be

:15:18.:15:21.

considered? At the moment women in England can

:15:21.:15:26.

have an abortion from a clinic, run by charities like BPAS, and Stopes

:15:26.:15:34.

stop. But pro-life groups argue there is -- Marie Stopes. But pro-

:15:34.:15:39.

life groups argue there is a leaning to recommend abortion.

:15:39.:15:42.

Nadine Dorries tried to stop these groups advising pregnant women.

:15:42.:15:46.

They said if women were made to have independent advice first, they

:15:46.:15:52.

could cut the abortion rate by 60,000 a year. But who qualifies to

:15:52.:16:00.

offer truly independent advice? We investigated the UK's biggest

:16:00.:16:03.

independent abortion counsellors, Care Confidential, the group is

:16:03.:16:07.

supposed to offer impartial and non-directive counselling. But

:16:07.:16:17.
:16:17.:16:33.

Newsnight had access to their After our programme the Nadine

:16:33.:16:38.

Dorries amendment suffered a heavy defeat in the Commons, in a cross-

:16:38.:16:42.

party abortion group was set up. As she walked out today, Diane Abbott

:16:43.:16:47.

hinted at a hidden agenda. She said it was just a front for the old

:16:47.:16:50.

plan. But tonight the public Health Minister, Anne Milton, tried to

:16:50.:16:53.

reassure the public, that the Government would not force women to

:16:53.:16:56.

get called independent counselling. This is only about improving

:16:56.:17:02.

services for women, there is no hidden agenda, and as I say, I'm

:17:02.:17:06.

extremely disappointed at Diane's actions. What we need to do is make

:17:06.:17:10.

sure women have an offer of counselling, if they want to take

:17:10.:17:14.

it up, it won't be mandatory, but it is available. Tonight the issue

:17:14.:17:18.

became mired in war of words, with Diane Abbott calling Nadine Dorries

:17:18.:17:24.

a Tea Party Tory, and her opponent dismissing her as simply bizarre.

:17:24.:17:29.

Here now are Diane Abbott, the shadow Health Minister and MP for

:17:29.:17:33.

Hackney, who quit the cross-party group today, and Nadine Dorries,

:17:33.:17:36.

from mid-Bedfordshire, who is still very much on it. Storming off, I

:17:36.:17:41.

mean really, should you not just have stayed to fight your corner?

:17:41.:17:44.

didn't storm off, I wrote Anne Milton a letter. We have to begin

:17:44.:17:50.

by understanding that women are offered counselling. The Royal

:17:50.:17:53.

College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the BMA and the

:17:53.:17:57.

Department of Health have elaborate guidelines for counselling. All the

:17:57.:18:01.

clinics are inspected and monitored. But nobody is presumably suggesting

:18:01.:18:07.

at the moment, certainly not Anne Milton, that women are forced into

:18:07.:18:10.

independent counselling. It seemed the tenor of the conversation in

:18:10.:18:14.

the committee wasn't to your liking? We were drawing up a

:18:15.:18:20.

document, the last draft I saw, we were offering three options, the

:18:20.:18:24.

last option was where the clinics wouldn't be allowed to do the

:18:25.:18:27.

counselling. Didn't like the behaviour in the committee, you

:18:27.:18:32.

didn't like Diane Abbott's behaviour? I have no problem with

:18:32.:18:35.

Diane Abbott's behaviour. She didn't write to Anne Milton, she

:18:35.:18:38.

wrote to the press. Anne Milton hadn't received the letter by the

:18:38.:18:42.

time she was contacted by the press. You had an unprecedented

:18:42.:18:46.

opportunity to influence that consultation document, Labour peer,

:18:46.:18:52.

Baroness Gould is on the committee, a well known pro-choiceer,

:18:52.:18:57.

FrankField, Labour is on the committee. There are more pro-

:18:57.:19:00.

choiceers on the committee. There were three meetings, you arrived

:19:00.:19:04.

late for one, and slept through the other. You had no interest

:19:04.:19:09.

whatsoever. You slept through the first one? You know, I think it is

:19:09.:19:12.

really important that we have a rational debate about this. Of

:19:12.:19:16.

course I didn't sleep through a meeting. You did, it has been

:19:16.:19:19.

verified by the members of the committee. If you really want to

:19:19.:19:24.

comment on this committee, should have taken part and attended, you

:19:24.:19:28.

stormed off, thrown your toys out of the pram. This is not about you,

:19:28.:19:31.

it is about women who are vulnerable, no access across the

:19:31.:19:35.

country to any kind of counselling. You have tried to put across the

:19:35.:19:39.

message this is mandatory counselling, it is an offer. There

:19:39.:19:45.

are lots of women, articulate, and well educated, who go straight to

:19:45.:19:50.

the abortion clinic, that is great for them. This consultation

:19:50.:19:53.

document is talking about very vulnerable groups, Diane claims to

:19:53.:19:58.

support and represent, who have no friends, nobody to talk to, and no

:19:58.:20:01.

access to counselling. This is exact lie the debate around

:20:01.:20:05.

abortion we don't want to have. There is a pro-choice consensus in

:20:05.:20:09.

parliament. What people don't want is a very kind of Americanised

:20:09.:20:18.

debate, which sperpblised and sensational, and you know, --

:20:18.:20:23.

Americanised, sensational, you know, Sarah Palin type. I was worried

:20:23.:20:27.

that it was more about a fix for internal problems. According to

:20:27.:20:31.

Nadine Dorries you weren't at the last committee meeting? I was.

:20:31.:20:34.

weren't at the second one, and asleep at the first one.

:20:34.:20:40.

weren't at the third one. If all you could do. You have walked out

:20:40.:20:44.

of the committee you didn't attend. Nadine is seeking to personalise an

:20:44.:20:48.

issue which is actually really important to hundreds and thousands

:20:48.:20:54.

of women. In which case, why not stay in the committee and have the

:20:54.:20:57.

discussion? Far from the people on the committee being pro-choice,

:20:57.:21:00.

they were not. I worry we still have Nadine's option on the table

:21:00.:21:06.

and the consultation is a front for putting it through. Let's ask you

:21:06.:21:11.

about it being a front. This is a consultation document, which is

:21:11.:21:15.

being decide by a cross-party group of MPs, two other Labour MPs have

:21:15.:21:20.

sat on that committee and have contributed to every meeting very

:21:20.:21:24.

positively, both pro-choice. Baroness Gould, on the Marches in

:21:24.:21:30.

the 1960s for pro-choice. Both ardent pro-choice MPs. They have

:21:30.:21:34.

put into the consultation document. It is up to us, it is a public

:21:34.:21:41.

consultation document, it is going to the public. Three options, two

:21:41.:21:47.

keep it as it is now, and the other two about offering counselling at

:21:47.:21:52.

various stages. The British pregnancy advisory service, and

:21:52.:21:55.

Marie Stopes offer advice about abortions, do you want them to

:21:55.:22:00.

continue? I would like anybody who has a financial or any kind of

:22:00.:22:07.

interest in a woman's abortion, to declare that interest. They take

:22:07.:22:11.

�130 million of Government money. Do you want independent counsellors

:22:11.:22:14.

to declare whether they are against abortion or not? Yes. You want to

:22:15.:22:18.

be clear, the Government will not go for any mandatory decision on,

:22:18.:22:22.

that that is what Anne Milton said, you accept that? Absolutely. There

:22:22.:22:27.

is nobody who should be in a room with a woman, who is in a crisis

:22:27.:22:31.

pregnancy, who has any agenda whatsoever, religious or financial.

:22:31.:22:38.

You are suggesting that Marie Stopes has an agenda? I'm not

:22:38.:22:41.

suggesting that. I'm saying there are lots of women in this country,

:22:41.:22:44.

in crisis pregnancy, who would like an offer of somebody to talk to.

:22:44.:22:48.

Can I just say, one of the reasons why this document has been

:22:48.:22:51.

developed, is the Department of Health has done a lot of research,

:22:51.:22:55.

they have discovered that in some parts of the country women do get

:22:55.:22:59.

offered counselling from Marie Stopes and B pass or whatever, in

:22:59.:23:02.

other parts of the country the situation is dire. It is a postcode

:23:02.:23:12.

lottery. This is a political fix with this consultation, this was

:23:12.:23:15.

voted down in the House of Commons. I would also say that far from me

:23:15.:23:18.

not understanding what is going on in the committee, there are other

:23:18.:23:21.

members of the committee who are as concerned as I am about the way it

:23:21.:23:25.

is going. Like who? It is not for me to say. Other people are

:23:25.:23:29.

considering their petition. Women's lives are too important to be

:23:29.:23:33.

pieces on a political chess board. Thank you very much.

:23:33.:23:36.

A trip to Windsor Castle, Buckingham Palace, or hole road

:23:36.:23:42.

castle, to see the Queen, and be honoured for our contribution to

:23:42.:23:46.

British life. Who could want anything else. According to a list

:23:46.:23:50.

released today, after a freedom of information request, quite a lot of

:23:50.:23:56.

prominent people have turned it down, CS Lewis, Roald Dahl, and

:23:56.:24:01.

even those who have painted portraits of the Queen. We have

:24:01.:24:11.
:24:11.:24:12.

tried to find out why. What would you say to ag ong? It was no thanks

:24:12.:24:18.

from this long line. The author, JB Priestly, he declined a Knighthood,

:24:18.:24:25.

as did Henry Morre. Francis Bacon said no to a decoration, so do

:24:25.:24:32.

Lewisian Freud, who died last year. And LS Lowry, who spuorned titles a

:24:32.:24:39.

record five times -- spuorned titles a record five times. A

:24:39.:24:45.

painter of industrial landscaped, he immortalised Salford, once a

:24:45.:24:50.

poor area of Manchester, putting up with a big part of the BBC now. A

:24:50.:24:54.

former student of Lowry, remembers discussion the honours list with

:24:54.:25:02.

the big man. He said what do you think of the system? I said I think

:25:02.:25:06.

it has its purposes and a lot of people are elevated by it. He said

:25:06.:25:09.

as far as that elevation was concerned he won't be going up in

:25:09.:25:14.

the list. He felt there was possibly, at times, a political

:25:14.:25:22.

entity with it. He was not comfortable with it. It was simply

:25:22.:25:25.

the fact he didn't wish to have something that would change his

:25:25.:25:29.

name to the general public. Giants of British cinema have shrugged off

:25:29.:25:36.

a royal tap on the shoulder. Including Trevor Howard, Alfred

:25:36.:25:43.

Hitchcock, Michael Winner. Michael winner? It's true, the director --

:25:43.:25:47.

Michael Winner? It's true, he turned down the OBE, as he

:25:47.:25:52.

confirmed it when he granted Newsnight an interview at his

:25:52.:25:57.

official London residence, or the ver Rwanda. I said this is the

:25:57.:26:05.

award they give to people who clean toilets, it was taken wrongly and

:26:05.:26:09.

taken as a ci.. The only thing I would have accepted it was a Lord

:26:09.:26:14.

sh. Then you can put on silly clothing and speak to a load of

:26:14.:26:18.

people who are half dead. And what you say might be carried by the

:26:18.:26:23.

media to a wider audience, rather than 20 people asleep in the House

:26:23.:26:28.

of Lords. It is not like that at all, many of the peers are wide

:26:28.:26:32.

awake. Many think hats off to the likes of Lord Mandelson, happy to

:26:32.:26:35.

accept a title, it is better than turning one down, says a Brit

:26:36.:26:41.

decorated by the French. I love the English honours system, it is a

:26:41.:26:46.

fabulous demonstration of our national genius, for snobbery. I

:26:46.:26:54.

have adored today's stories about the fabulous arabesque post turgs

:26:54.:27:00.

of the self-important people. -- posturings of the self-important

:27:00.:27:06.

people. It is an Hon nor to accept it rather an reject it. Snobbery

:27:06.:27:09.

will be involved in one way or another in accepting or rejecting.

:27:09.:27:13.

There is an individual choice. There are some who will wish to

:27:13.:27:17.

make a political statement, or highlight some issue they are

:27:17.:27:21.

particularly interested in their life. This is perhaps an

:27:21.:27:29.

opportunity both in accepting or in rejecting.

:27:29.:27:39.
:27:39.:27:40.

One of the surprising names among the refusals is that of Hu g hie

:27:40.:27:47.

Green. Can you imagine Simon Cowell declining a gong, why did Green say

:27:47.:27:52.

no, perhaps, he like other showbiz legends, were holding out for

:27:53.:28:01.

something better. What would your style be, Lord winner of -- Lord

:28:01.:28:09.

Winner of Winnerville! Yes. I am joined by my guest who was awarded

:28:09.:28:15.

a Knighthood for services to art and education, and my guest who has

:28:15.:28:19.

turned down an MBE for services to writing.

:28:19.:28:24.

Journalists should never ask a "how do you feel" question, but I will

:28:24.:28:28.

ask it, how did you feel when the sword came down on your shoulder?

:28:29.:28:35.

It is liker roll flin on the deck and the sun glinting on the sword.

:28:35.:28:42.

It is wonderful thing. Do you like being called Sir Christopher?

:28:42.:28:45.

like the arts getting a pat on the back. People say it is for the

:28:45.:28:48.

great and the good and the privileges and the wealthy. The

:28:48.:28:52.

arts don't get much of a pat on the back from establishment, and art

:28:52.:29:02.
:29:02.:29:03.

institutions, it is jolly nice when it happens. What is wrong with it.

:29:03.:29:09.

Do you have to have a coat of arms? You don't have to. You have chosen

:29:09.:29:19.
:29:19.:29:20.

it? I got some of the students to help me. Nobody has ever put a dodo

:29:20.:29:28.

on the top, because it is exstibgt. You have to have a motto, it

:29:28.:29:35.

translates to "go ahead punk, make my day". Sir Christopher gets a lot

:29:36.:29:39.

out of it? A lot of people are offered them and it is not clear

:29:39.:29:43.

why. It is a really snobbish system. It is interesting that people

:29:43.:29:49.

accuse you of snobbery if you reject them. Actually there are all

:29:49.:29:54.

these grades. When you get a letter, which says the Foreign Secretary is

:29:54.:29:58.

minded to recommend to the imaginationry that you be admitted

:29:58.:30:00.

to the honourary Order of the British empire. Will you be a

:30:01.:30:04.

member, officer, commander. Well there are people who actually want

:30:05.:30:08.

nothing more in their lives than to be a chander of the British Empire,

:30:08.:30:11.

I'm not in that group -- commander of the British Empire, I'm not in

:30:11.:30:15.

that group of people. Do you take the point that turning it down you

:30:15.:30:18.

are more snobbish than accepting it? That is a cheap point and easy

:30:19.:30:21.

to make. One of the reasons I turned it down was when I wrote

:30:21.:30:25.

back I said thank you very much, it is very nice of you to offer this,

:30:25.:30:29.

but why can't we have an honest system which is inclusive and

:30:29.:30:39.
:30:39.:30:40.

modern. Why do we have to have all the gradeations. Christopher

:30:40.:30:43.

accepted it because it was art being recognised, your work on

:30:43.:30:47.

human rights was being recognised. All your colleagues would get the

:30:47.:30:52.

reflected glory as well? People always say I'm not accepted it for

:30:52.:30:59.

me but my mother. I accepted it for me and the institution. In art he

:30:59.:31:04.

had gaigs it is extremely rare for somebody to -- education it is

:31:04.:31:09.

extremely rare for somebody to get it. Art education comes in through

:31:09.:31:13.

the tradesmans' entrance, and now it was in the palace. You talk

:31:13.:31:18.

about it in British terms, tradesmans' entrance and now the

:31:18.:31:23.

palace door. Is it a very British thing, even the language as was

:31:23.:31:28.

said about how the letter comes out? Nine British traditions out of

:31:28.:31:34.

ten date from Victorian times. All this goes back to the Normans, all

:31:34.:31:37.

the gradations. The thing that is wrong with some of the gradations,

:31:37.:31:40.

it relates to the controversy about the bank at the moment, is some of

:31:40.:31:44.

them, you do a roll and by virtue of doing that role, you expect to

:31:44.:31:48.

get an honour. I think it should be related to doing it well, rather

:31:48.:31:56.

than just inhabiting it. Stephen Baley has the French awards, do

:31:56.:32:00.

others have the same problem with awards that we have? I'm not

:32:00.:32:09.

against awards, per se, I'm against the things that go with it. After I

:32:09.:32:16.

was awarded an MBE for human rights, somebody I like who makes shoes,

:32:16.:32:22.

and I have several payers of their shoes, but they got an OBE for

:32:22.:32:29.

services to fashion, why is fashion on a higher rung than human rights.

:32:29.:32:34.

Dame Joan would have been OK for human rights? Not at all. A friend

:32:34.:32:40.

was broken hearted because he wasn't awarded a certain honour.

:32:40.:32:45.

Look at the swathe of those who have turned it down and now dead,

:32:45.:32:49.

up until 1999, an awful lot in the arts community thinking it is not

:32:49.:32:53.

for them? The romantic view of the artist, outsider status, it is bad

:32:53.:32:56.

for your image as an artist to get into bed with the establishment.

:32:57.:33:03.

That goes back to the early 1th century, that is why Lucian Freud,

:33:03.:33:10.

Lowry, Piper, surprisingly, are all on the list. I don't think it is

:33:10.:33:13.

right, the reason why so many people in the arts have turned it

:33:13.:33:16.

down is they have a strong sense of identity of who they are, they

:33:16.:33:19.

don't need the recognition. The arts is rather democratic and

:33:19.:33:26.

modern part of society. So it is you that is out of step in the

:33:26.:33:29.

community? Some do some do tell that to others, it is a personal

:33:29.:33:34.

choice in the end. We will have to finish it there, maybe something

:33:34.:33:38.

will drop through the mat for one of our audience next time.

:33:38.:33:42.

Albert Einstein said he didn't know which weapons would fight the third

:33:42.:33:46.

world war, but the fourth would be fought with sticks and stones. At a

:33:46.:33:50.

cybersecurity conference today, they think they do know, wars will

:33:50.:33:54.

be fought in signer space with armies of hackers on each side.

:33:54.:33:58.

Computer worms and cyberattacks we have been getting used to, we don't

:33:58.:34:07.

know exactly by whom. Earlier I asked the American signer defence

:34:07.:34:16.

people who their role is. There is a silent battle on,

:34:16.:34:20.

powerful forces on either side, from on-line activists to organised

:34:20.:34:26.

crime to nation states. Cyberspace is the new frontline.

:34:26.:34:30.

All around the world, cyberattacks are hitting the headlines.

:34:30.:34:33.

Authorities in Australia have warned of a flood of attacks

:34:33.:34:41.

against the websites of financial firms. This is a strategic issue.

:34:41.:34:44.

Stop management have just got to be aware of the damage that can be

:34:44.:34:52.

done. On New Year's Day, a multimillion pound cyberheist hits

:34:52.:34:58.

hit banks in South Africa. cyber-heist hit banks in South

:34:58.:35:03.

Africa. Nobody is doing the analysis to the level they need to.

:35:03.:35:08.

Attacks claimed by anonymous cybergroups have hit Governments

:35:08.:35:12.

and corporate business in protest over attempts to police the

:35:12.:35:15.

Internet. Despite the best efforts of big business, international

:35:15.:35:19.

intelligence and the law, the cyber-threat seems to be always one

:35:19.:35:29.

step ahead. This is where it all began,

:35:29.:35:33.

Bletchley Park, just north of London, home to Britain's famous

:35:33.:35:41.

war time code breaking success. This is the world's first modern

:35:41.:35:48.

computer, kollos sis, it was rebuilt -- Collosas, it was rebuilt

:35:48.:35:54.

here at Bletchley Park, this is cyber-warfare at its inception. The

:35:54.:35:57.

whole Bletchley project was kept secret for decades, remote from the

:35:57.:36:02.

outside world. These days our lives depend on digital communications,

:36:02.:36:05.

connecting us with the outside world, but leaving us vulnerable

:36:05.:36:13.

too. Bletchley Park is at the very

:36:13.:36:18.

centre of this whole issue. In the Second World War this, to put it

:36:18.:36:25.

mildly, was a state matter. Now, of course, it is into

:36:25.:36:33.

everything, everybody is affected by it. Sir John Scarlett, now chair

:36:33.:36:40.

of the Bletchley Park Trust, and former head of MI6, has seen cyber-

:36:40.:36:44.

crime increase. We have to worry about crime, terrorism, and state

:36:44.:36:53.

activity, I have course, you have to worry about what is called a

:36:53.:36:58.

hacktivist. I do repeat the state- to-state issue and the threat that

:36:58.:37:02.

comes from the most capable states in this area, it remains a huge

:37:02.:37:12.
:37:12.:37:12.

issue. As cyberattacks go, the one

:37:12.:37:16.

discovered in 2010 is arguably the most spectacular.

:37:16.:37:21.

It is thought the US and Israel were behind the attack, targeting

:37:21.:37:24.

Iran's nuclear programme by its systems.

:37:24.:37:29.

This is a cyber-security analyst, who has been unpicking the

:37:29.:37:33.

technology. He worries that technology is now out in the open.

:37:33.:37:39.

The problem with it itself, whoever the actors were, they opened

:37:39.:37:43.

Pandora's box, what they did was they allowed the world and the

:37:43.:37:50.

community, the hacking community, and others, to peer into a world of

:37:50.:37:57.

developing cyber-weapons. So when they compromised the see minute

:37:57.:38:03.

architecture, deployed in the -- seemen architecture deployed in the

:38:03.:38:08.

U kits. If someone could reverse engineer, and they have already

:38:08.:38:14.

reverse engine neared some of it, they could reweaponise it to go out

:38:14.:38:18.

there. Old battles are being fought in the new territory. Arab-Israeli

:38:18.:38:23.

tensions are being played out in cyber-space. There is a month-long

:38:23.:38:28.

offensive between pro-Palestinian, and pro-Israeli hackers.

:38:28.:38:34.

In a series of escalating tit for tat attacks, Israeli hackers

:38:34.:38:39.

published the credit card details of hundreds of Saudis, targeted the

:38:39.:38:43.

Saudi Government's stock exchange and released details of the

:38:43.:38:48.

Facebook accounts of 20,000 Arab users. For their part, Saudi teams

:38:48.:38:52.

launched attacks on the Tel Aviv stock exchange, and Israel's

:38:52.:38:55.

national airline. Israel's deputy Foreign Minister compared the

:38:56.:39:01.

signer-attacks to acts of terrorism. When we - cyberattacks, to acts of

:39:01.:39:05.

terrorism. When we spoke to Israeli former head of security, he

:39:05.:39:09.

resisted that parallel. These attacks are nothing new, they are

:39:09.:39:12.

not interesting technically or lodge gistically, and stragically

:39:12.:39:17.

they are even boring, what makes them so important is the way we

:39:17.:39:20.

responded to them wrecks meaning the people, the press and the

:39:20.:39:25.

politician -- them, we meaning the people, the press and the

:39:25.:39:29.

politicians, giving them more strength of character than they

:39:29.:39:35.

actually had. Recent attacks, such as the Israeli-Saudi hacks, have

:39:35.:39:39.

affected civilian targets, banks, airlines and credit card companies.

:39:39.:39:44.

So far it is the military that is taking the lead on cyber-defence.

:39:44.:39:48.

This London conference brings together military experts in cyber-

:39:48.:39:52.

security. But there are clearly tensions. Both the Chinese and

:39:52.:39:58.

Russian delegations accepted invitations to attend, but either

:39:58.:40:07.

are here. In the US, the tone over the cyber-domain is shifting. The

:40:07.:40:14.

US military is recruiting 10,000 cyber-warriors to patrol cyberspace.

:40:14.:40:17.

But should nations be thinking about a different kind of presence

:40:17.:40:23.

in the virtual world. We have seen cyber-incidents between Russia and

:40:23.:40:26.

Georgia, that is still on going. We have seen incidents between

:40:27.:40:30.

Pakistan and India, and that is still on going. The United Nations

:40:30.:40:36.

needs to figure out how they can deploy peacekeepers in the digital

:40:36.:40:42.

borders of a nation. The problem with cyberspace is

:40:42.:40:46.

traditional borders no longer exist. The commercial world can protect

:40:46.:40:51.

its interests with systems from companies like Sofos.

:40:51.:40:56.

The challenge for the world of business is keeping pace with

:40:56.:41:00.

cyberattacks. The sheer volume of those attacks, their fast-changing

:41:00.:41:04.

nature, and where they are coming from.

:41:04.:41:09.

We received a Spam message just outside Oxford. The Spam message

:41:09.:41:15.

was actually sent from an infected compromised machine, just outside

:41:15.:41:19.

Warsaw in Poland. When you clicked on the website, in the Spam message,

:41:19.:41:26.

it took you to a location just outside New York. It then

:41:26.:41:31.

redirected you to another location just outside Beijing in China, that

:41:31.:41:35.

used a vulnerability in your browser to install a banking Trojan

:41:35.:41:40.

that was hosted in Russia. Then when you entered your bank account

:41:40.:41:45.

details, next time you logged on to your on-line banking, it collected

:41:45.:41:50.

those details and send it to the bad guy sat on the -- sent it to

:41:50.:41:54.

the bad guy sat on the beach in Brazil. Some people say we need to

:41:54.:41:59.

make it easier for companies hit by cyber-attacks to talk about what

:41:59.:42:02.

went wrong so others can learn. At the moment there is a tendency to

:42:02.:42:09.

close up. You can't go back into your cook Koon and say we can't do

:42:09.:42:16.

that, it brings too many threats it is impossible. Our whole future

:42:16.:42:20.

prosperity depends on us being an open economy. At the same time we

:42:20.:42:26.

have to be super-alert, super- informed, and have the highest

:42:26.:42:36.
:42:36.:42:40.

possible level of expertise. How the authorities respond to these

:42:40.:42:45.

new forms of attack, will shape all our furtherures.

:42:45.:42:50.

Earlier today I -- futures. Earl they are today I spoke to the head

:42:50.:42:54.

of the cyberco-ordinator at the conference. I began by asking what

:42:54.:42:59.

the US Government was doing about the threat of cyberattacks.

:42:59.:43:04.

matter what the threat, whether a criminal group a nation state or a

:43:04.:43:08.

terrorist, we haven't seen that threat yet. No matter who the

:43:08.:43:12.

threat actor is, having strong defences in place will protect you

:43:12.:43:16.

from that threat. Building a couple of things, which we have

:43:16.:43:18.

increasingly seen done, building the technical defences in countries,

:43:18.:43:22.

this is every country around the world should do this domestically,

:43:22.:43:25.

having institutions in place to have better governance in the

:43:25.:43:30.

country over the issue. For instance, in the US we have a much

:43:30.:43:33.

better US Governmental structure where we are all involved in

:43:33.:43:37.

talking about these issues. Having those strategic documents to think

:43:37.:43:41.

and talk about it is important. The US that is in the political

:43:41.:43:45.

military area, the law of conflict applies to cyberspace. How that

:43:45.:43:48.

applies is something we needing to forward on. It is significant to

:43:48.:43:54.

say there is principles of distinctions and proportionality

:43:54.:43:58.

apply. It is largely believed the Americans were involved in some way

:43:58.:44:03.

in the Stuxnet virus that hit Iran's nuke clier programme, were

:44:03.:44:09.

they involved? I had no knowledge of that at all. What I would say

:44:09.:44:12.

about that, is it simply illustrates how vulnerable systems

:44:12.:44:17.

can be, and how we need to build defences. Have the US, as far as

:44:17.:44:21.

you know, been involved in cyberactivities at military level,

:44:21.:44:27.

up until now? Again I would defer to what the Department of Defence

:44:27.:44:30.

might say, and what they have said in the documents you mentioned. As

:44:30.:44:36.

far as we are saying in a strategic matter, we need to make sure we

:44:36.:44:39.

have the full range of tools to respond. At the same time we have

:44:40.:44:43.

to make sure we are looking at it as a whole Government approach.

:44:43.:44:46.

Russians have been saying they have been trying to get rules of

:44:46.:44:51.

engagment and a treaty, and the US has been resisting? They are right,

:44:51.:44:55.

what they have been proposing, a cyberarms control treaty. There are

:44:55.:45:00.

a couple of different things to think about. One is a cyber-arms

:45:00.:45:04.

control treaty, it doesn't make sense. The reasons it doesn't is

:45:04.:45:09.

the tools we are talking about can be used for offence and defence,

:45:09.:45:12.

again, if that is not the right approach, and we fundamentally

:45:12.:45:16.

don't think it is, we think it is not really looking at the impacts

:45:16.:45:20.

and how nations can deal with each other, then you have to pursue the

:45:20.:45:25.

idea about the norms and rules of the war should be, rather than the

:45:25.:45:31.

artificial treaty concept. All laws can be final well, and well

:45:31.:45:34.

constructed, what about the kids in the bedroom who don't realise what

:45:34.:45:39.

they are getting caught up in? of it is education and part of it

:45:39.:45:43.

is changing the culture, so people in all society understand there is

:45:43.:45:48.

a cost here. This is criminal conduct what you are doing in the

:45:48.:45:52.

bedroom. It is making them more aware of how vulnerable their

:45:52.:45:54.

information is so they take better measures to secure that information.

:45:55.:45:58.

The public is part of. That it is raising that level of awareness,

:45:58.:46:01.

you have to make it part of the common understanding and common

:46:01.:46:11.
:46:11.:46:32.

dialogue in society. That's it tonight, Gavin will be

:46:32.:46:42.
:46:42.:47:08.

back tomorrow night, who knows what Showers continue through the night,

:47:08.:47:12.

across western areas. An ice risk as well. Showers prevalent across

:47:12.:47:15.

Scotland and Northern Ireland, working into northern England. Rain,

:47:15.:47:21.

sleet, hail and snow. A dusting across the Pennines and the peak

:47:21.:47:24.

district, from the north, things turning dryer and brighter before

:47:24.:47:29.

the afternoon is kpwhrotly gone. Much of -- completely gone. East

:47:29.:47:33.

Anglia and the south will stay predominantly dry, showers towards

:47:33.:47:37.

the coast. Showers developing late in the day and through the evening,

:47:38.:47:42.

across the south west a mixture of hail, sleet and snow. Nothing too

:47:42.:47:47.

significant with snow concerned. A dusting across the higher grounds

:47:47.:47:52.

of Wales, showers developing widely the second part of the day. An icey

:47:52.:47:55.

cold wind for many, throughout Northern Ireland, clearing some of

:47:55.:47:58.

the morning showers. For Scotland winds will be lighter. Most will

:47:58.:48:02.

have a dry, bright, crisp afternoon, with sunny spells. The same will be

:48:02.:48:06.

said as we go into Saturday, we start to lose the shower risk from

:48:06.:48:10.

many areas, clearer skies developing. It will be an icey

:48:10.:48:14.

start, same too in southern parts. Temperatures continuing to drop.

:48:14.:48:19.

Winds light, and sunshine developing, an icey start, later in

:48:19.:48:22.

the day the cloud will gather from the west. Particularly in Northern

:48:22.:48:26.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

Cutting taxes and not just spending. Does Nick Clegg's pledge to help families amount to an economic Plan B?

And Michael Winner explains why he is among those revealed to have turned down an honour.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS