07/02/2012 Newsnight


07/02/2012

Jeremy Paxman chairs a debate on faulty breast implants and the cosmetic surgery industry with former page 3 model Katie Price. Plus the latest from Syria.


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Transcript


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Every one of these women has had silicone implants inserted into her

:00:09.:00:12.

breasts, the process was certificated safe, in many cases it

:00:12.:00:16.

certainly wasn't. Who should pay for them to be removed? Most women

:00:16.:00:19.

had their breasts changed, not because they were ill or suffering,

:00:19.:00:23.

but because they wanted to look different. If they pay to have them

:00:23.:00:28.

put in, should they also have to pay to have them extracted.

:00:28.:00:32.

would never think that somebody would put something in your body

:00:32.:00:36.

that shouldn't be there, that is dangerous. You know, but even if

:00:36.:00:41.

you pay for it either. Nevertheless, tens of thousands of

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women in this country have had these things inserted into their

:00:44.:00:52.

bodies, but why? The former page 3 model, Katie Price, once boasted

:00:52.:00:58.

she was "famous for my tits", which she has variously enlarged and

:00:58.:01:02.

reduced. Naomi Wolf wrote the book that expectations about women's

:01:02.:01:07.

appearances are a form of tyranny. Also tonight, the Russian Foreign

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Minister arrives in Syria, to a huge pro-democracy demonstration,

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he hopes to stop the violence, is The immediate questions raised by

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the scare over breast implants are pretty clear. One, is there any

:01:28.:01:32.

need to have them removed, and how urgently? And two, who should pay

:01:32.:01:37.

for that operation. 95% of women who have had them, have done so for

:01:38.:01:43.

cosmetic reasons, in private clinic, the NHS medical direct to doesn't

:01:43.:01:48.

even know who they all are. He told a committee of MPs today, there was

:01:48.:01:51.

significant uncertainty about whether the PIP implants were safe

:01:51.:01:56.

or not. The NHS is only offering to remove implants it inserted, but

:01:56.:01:59.

should the taxpayer also foot the bill for taking out something put

:01:59.:02:02.

in for purely cosmetic reasons, to make a private company money.

:02:02.:02:12.
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Before we talk this through with our guest, we report.

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I'm really angry, really angry. That anybody could be so negligent

:02:22.:02:29.

as to put these in womens' bodies. They wanted to change the way they

:02:30.:02:33.

looked, and opted for cosmetic surgery, but now they are angry,

:02:34.:02:38.

like hundreds of thousands of women around the world, they were given

:02:38.:02:41.

breast implants made from silicone that should not be inside their

:02:41.:02:51.

bodies. The implants came from a French

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company called PIP, it turned out, its founder, Jean-Claude Mas, had

:02:55.:03:00.

been dodging inspectors in France, filling the implants, not with

:03:00.:03:04.

biologically compatible silicone, but an industrial grade, normally

:03:04.:03:14.
:03:14.:03:14.

used to fill mattresses. Emma Bennie paid �4,000 for her implants

:03:14.:03:21.

in 2009. She told us they changed her life. About 3,000 of the 40,000

:03:21.:03:27.

or so women in the UK who had PIP implants, are thought to be NHS

:03:27.:03:30.

patients, fitted after cancer surgery, but the vast majority

:03:30.:03:33.

chose to go through the operation for other reasons.

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I felt inadequate as a woman, you know, things like going on holiday

:03:40.:03:45.

or taking my kids swimming, you know, feeling really self-conscious

:03:45.:03:50.

about putting on a swimsuit, going into the water, even being married.

:03:50.:03:54.

Feeling inadequate as a wife, really. So I really, really wanted

:03:54.:04:03.

to get it done. I'm glad I did. She wants to go ahead with new

:04:03.:04:08.

implants, but wants the PIP ones taken out. I wouldn't have liked to

:04:08.:04:13.

be walking around another day with something that's poisonous inside

:04:13.:04:18.

my body, because it is a scary thought.

:04:18.:04:24.

Emma is one of the luckier ones, the implant furore erupted a few

:04:24.:04:27.

days before Christmas this year, when French -- last year, when

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French authorities recommended women should have their implants

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taken out, because they had a higher than average rupture rate.

:04:37.:04:41.

Emma's clinic, Nuffield Health, said it would remove and he replace

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implants for free. This allows me to remove her

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implant, and her implant is intact, and is in pretty good condition.

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So Emma's in the middle of her operation, she is having her PIP

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implants removed and replaceed with a different brand. This is the one

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that has just been taken out. The surgeon is looking for rupture or

:05:09.:05:13.

leakage, this one is fine. Jean- Claude Mas, who founded the PIP

:05:13.:05:17.

company, was arrested last month. He has since been charged with

:05:17.:05:21.

causing bodily harm, and faces a separate fraud trial. But are there

:05:21.:05:25.

others who let these women down? What about the regulators?

:05:25.:05:29.

The warning signs had been there for years, the company itself had

:05:29.:05:32.

faced court action for at least a decade, French investigators have

:05:32.:05:37.

been looking into PIP for the past two years, reported last week, they

:05:37.:05:41.

found that French health authorities were sent an anonymous

:05:41.:05:49.

tip-off back in 1996. The regulator here in the UK is the medicines and

:05:49.:05:54.

healthcare products regulatory agency, or MHRA, in 2009, lawyers

:05:54.:05:57.

warned the agency they were receiving reports of problems. It

:05:57.:06:01.

was not until 2010 when the French found unauthorised material in the

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implants and banned them, that the agency began testing the gel.

:06:05.:06:10.

There are now widespread questions about the way the MHRA goes about

:06:10.:06:15.

its job. The editor of the medical journal, the lance set, foark, has

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said the whole PIP scandal, was an inevitable result of paralysis at

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the healthcare regulator. He said their whole approach was to do

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nothing until something goes wrong. Nuffield Health was the first

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clinic to offer patients free removal and replacement. They want

:06:32.:06:37.

to see a new registry and better regulation. Andrew Jones is a GP

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and their group Medical Director. He's concerned that more might have

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been done sooner. Providers were notified in the form

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of a medical device alert in March 2010, that is when we took the

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decision to write to patients to call them in to see their

:06:55.:06:59.

consultants. Its clear in subsequent correspondence we have

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had with the MHRA, there were issues known about these implants

:07:04.:07:10.

as far back as 2008. The MHRA says it took up concerns in 2008, before

:07:10.:07:20.
:07:20.:07:35.

Back at Emma's operation, and her surgeon has now removed her second

:07:35.:07:40.

implant. There is some leakage, which used to happen with older-

:07:40.:07:44.

style implants and common with PIP. This implant has a little gel bleed,

:07:44.:07:48.

it is getting slimey on the surface. No-one can yet know the long-term

:07:48.:07:52.

effect of this leakage of industrial grade gel, that is even

:07:52.:07:58.

from implants that have not ruptured. What about the private

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clinics that made profits from PIP implants. A surgeon from

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Birmingham's Queen Elizabeth Hospital told us in 2005, she was

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so appalled by one patient's ruptured PIP implant that she wrote

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to the plastic surgeries' Bible, the British Institute of Plastic

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surgeries about the case. response to that article, a letter

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came back, another surgeon saying it is a problem, I have seen more

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of this. There must have been other people out there beginning to think

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there was a problem. The clinics that were putting in thousands of

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those, I think, they must have been knowing there was something going

:08:36.:08:39.

on. If they were following up their patients at all, they must have

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been aware. Alison Hope told us she has wanted

:08:44.:08:48.

implants since she was about 20. She had the operation in 2008, but

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now wants them taken out. Her clinic, The Hospital Group, wants

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her GP to arrange a scan, to see if they are ruptured. If I have them

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replaced, whether I pay for them or not, I have to sign a wavier to say

:09:01.:09:06.

that I won't sue the company, and I won't take it any further.

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contacted the Hospital Group, to ask why they are doing this, they

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have not responded. Her lawyer is one of a team bringing a group

:09:15.:09:19.

action against the clinics. Do you want to have the operation or not,

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in which case you sign away all your rights, or do you hold on and

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hope that at some point in the future somebody will pay for the

:09:28.:09:31.

operation to be done privately. It is a terrible position for the

:09:31.:09:37.

women to be in. Has the Government done enough? The

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Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, has insisted there is no need for

:09:41.:09:44.

routine removal, even as other countries have said the opposite.

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He now recognises women's anxieties and says NHS patients and any woman

:09:54.:09:58.

let down by her private clinic can have them removed, but not replaced,

:09:58.:10:03.

on the NHS. Alison's lawyer, Richard Langton, wrote to Mr

:10:03.:10:07.

Lansley last month, suggesting a way to avoid the estimated �100

:10:07.:10:11.

million or more it could end up costing the NHS. He has not had an

:10:11.:10:16.

answer. The main issue here is to get the insurance industry, suring

:10:16.:10:21.

all the clinics, to accept their responsibility, to indemify the

:10:21.:10:25.

clinics and pay compensation to women, so they can have the

:10:25.:10:29.

implants removed and replaced. Emma's operation has been a success.

:10:29.:10:33.

Tests may have shown there is no risk of cancerer from this gel, but

:10:33.:10:36.

many women have been left feeling less than reassured about possible

:10:36.:10:42.

long-term health effects, and in a state of limbo.

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We asked the larger clinics and hospital groups, who carried out

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PIP breast implants, if they talked to Newsnight. Nuffield Health were

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in that report, but none of the others we asked was available to

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come on the programme this evening. To discuss this now we are joined

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by women from all over the country who have had PIP implants, and the

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Health Minister, Anne Milton. Gemma, why did you have this? Personally,

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myself, I breast fed two children for two years, and it affected me

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greatly by doing that. I was uncomfortable in front of my

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husband getting changed, I was very, very depressed, I considered going

:11:22.:11:27.

to the NHS and requested their help and decided it wasn't fair to do

:11:27.:11:32.

that, I saved up and went privately. How much did it cost you? Near

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�5,000. Was it easy to get that money? Up until a couple of months

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ago we were still paying it off, to then be told I may have to pay that

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again, was obvious low not going down very well. Laura, why did you

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get your's done? I had mine done when I was 21 years old, I just

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felt quite inadequate and not very feminine, I thought long and hard

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about it, and researched the various different clinics before I

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made my decision. I got recommended to go to the particular clinic I

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went to by some friends of mine. you regret it? Yeah.

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When did you start regreting it? When I found out about the PIPs,

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over the Christmas period. That was this year, they have been in you

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some time? They have. I have just found out on Friday mine have

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actually ruptured. What does that mean? They have broken inside my

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body and it has gone into my lymph nodes. Have you seen the doctor

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about that? My GP doesn't know about the long-term health effects

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of that, that is a major worry for When you went to your GP, Sian

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Clarke, what were you told? Sorry Rebecca Ashton, what were you told

:12:51.:12:57.

when you went to see your GP? was fantastic, I went about four

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weeks ago, he referred me for an MRI scan, a letter from the NHS

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saying MRI testing and all these things. He was going to help me get

:13:05.:13:09.

the testing that I needed. everybody had the same experience

:13:09.:13:17.

with their GP? No. No. What's your experience? My experience initially,

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although my GP did refer me for a scan, my clinic went into

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administration. They seemed dismissive about it. One of the

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laidios I spoblg to recently, her GP -- spoke to recently, sorry the

:13:29.:13:35.

NHS member of staff she saw for her scan, that she was a waste of their

:13:35.:13:43.

resources. You are a waste of our resources. Was any explanation

:13:43.:13:47.

again given -- given for that response? No it was a member of

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staff giving her opinion, a human being that needed help. Do you

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think these women are a waste of NHS resources? I feel sorry,

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talking to some of the women before we started. There is a very mixed

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picture. It is really good to hear where GPs have responded, and a

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couple of you have said you have been threeted excellently, but

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there is no - treated excellently, but there is no room for comments

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like that. For a lot of women, not just those with PIP implants, there

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will be concerns and they need to talk about them and, if necessary,

:14:19.:14:23.

have scans. Do you think pip pim implants are dangerous -- PIP

:14:23.:14:26.

implants are dangerous? evidence at the moment is they are

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not, but it doesn't stop women worrying about them. There are two

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things we need to look at, whether the regulations work properly,

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these were something kite marked. One further thing, when you can

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come back. Should they be removed? I'm not a doctor, so I'm not in a

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position to say. You are supposed to know what is going on? I'm not a

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clinician, I don't know. As I say, the lady who went to her GP,

:14:52.:14:57.

referred for a scan, that is good. Two days before my actual scan and

:14:57.:15:02.

testing, I got a letter from the NHS saying everything was cancelled.

:15:02.:15:07.

I rang the NHS and asked why have you cancelled, I were heartbroken,

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they said go back to your doctors in two weeks and they will know why.

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To get a letter the day after saying I was going to have a

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routine scan. There was no sorry, or I can help. She asked for my

:15:18.:15:22.

name, the details would be on the screen, she never let me know and

:15:22.:15:28.

put the phone down on me. Gemma you wanted to come back? Whatest iting

:15:28.:15:31.

has been done, to what extent has this testing been done. There is a

:15:31.:15:35.

lot of testing in France, which is why it all came about. The testing

:15:35.:15:40.

done there has found that 6% they have taken out are ruptured, and 2%

:15:40.:15:44.

are bleeding. As much as if they rupture there will be trouble, it

:15:44.:15:49.

is the bleeding, it is a chemical, a mattress filler that should not

:15:49.:15:58.

be in the human body. What this lady is raising, it was in the last

:15:58.:16:00.

few days the European Commission saying there is no evidence to date.

:16:00.:16:04.

What I am saying is it is really important in a situation like this

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that we collect research as we go along. That uncertainty is what is

:16:08.:16:12.

really, really hard for women to live with. We are not being told,

:16:12.:16:15.

that is my question to you, who is doing this research, what research

:16:15.:16:20.

is actually being done. It needs to be filtered back to all of us. It

:16:20.:16:24.

feels like nothing is being done. That's right, I think that point is

:16:24.:16:27.

important. Which is why we put adverts in the paper. There was a

:16:27.:16:32.

lot of uncertainty in the middle of January. Even then that was three

:16:32.:16:40.

weeks too late, this came out 23rd of December, it wasn't until the

:16:40.:16:47.

18th of January before we got the first advert. The NHS is pretty

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stressed, why should tax-payers pay for this. When you go back to the

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clinic that did the operation, have they been helpful? Rose? I had done

:16:57.:17:01.

my privately, a cosmetic place, where I went, they went into

:17:01.:17:04.

liquidation, they dissolved and opened up as another company, I

:17:04.:17:09.

went to them and said are they PIP implants, they said, yeah, they

:17:09.:17:12.

can't do anything about it, they are a new company, they have

:17:12.:17:16.

dissolved. I have nowhere else to turn to. I don't really want the

:17:16.:17:21.

NHS to pay for it, I want the company to pay for it. You have

:17:21.:17:26.

your hand up at the back? I don't want to get forgotten about. I want

:17:26.:17:29.

to ask a question about why you think they are safe, when so many

:17:29.:17:34.

of us women, who have the PIP implants, all have the same health

:17:34.:17:39.

problems, and all the same symptoms, and they are not, there is not

:17:39.:17:43.

little problems, they are bigger problems. I'm getting menopause

:17:43.:17:46.

symptoms, I'm 26 years old. Why are all these tests not being done to

:17:46.:17:52.

find out what this stuff is doing to our bodies. Can I add, a lot of

:17:52.:17:56.

women who have gone back to surgeries, I showed my surgeries

:17:56.:18:00.

the difference in my shame and what I looked like -- shape and what I

:18:00.:18:08.

looked like, I had mine done in 2004, they weren't normal, I they

:18:08.:18:12.

sent me away, and it is more than two years. There are two issues, we

:18:12.:18:15.

heard in that report of a clinic that is acting really responsibly.

:18:15.:18:18.

And the story that you have given tonight is what I have heard from a

:18:18.:18:22.

lot of women, they don't want the NHS to pay, they want the companies

:18:23.:18:26.

who did this to come up and do what they should do, which is why we

:18:26.:18:30.

have said that we will take them out. The NHS is a place of last

:18:31.:18:36.

resort. We are almost alone in Europe in refusing, hang on a

:18:36.:18:41.

second, the public health service, we are almost alone in not offering

:18:41.:18:46.

this service to women? The Welsh are offering to use the NHS to

:18:46.:18:51.

remove them and replace them with new ones if necessary, why not in

:18:51.:18:54.

England? If we need to take them out we will take them out and we

:18:54.:19:01.

will go after the companies. What about the depression, the anxiety,

:19:01.:19:05.

living day-to-day. Shouldn't they get a scan? Anybody with concerns

:19:05.:19:09.

needing to to their doctor. There are 40,000 women, a big queue, we

:19:09.:19:12.

are all waiting in the queue, and you think the door is open and then

:19:12.:19:16.

you are back behind the other 40,000. I know, there is other

:19:16.:19:20.

women waiting for surgery for other reasons as well, we have to cater

:19:20.:19:25.

for it all. It doesn't help if they are ruptured. I know you are really

:19:25.:19:29.

angry and anxious, I can't solve it tonight. We have been clear what we

:19:29.:19:34.

will do. You could make a ruling, you could make a ruling that anyone

:19:35.:19:40.

who is anxious and had implants is entitled to a scan at the very

:19:40.:19:45.

least? We need an MRI scan, we have a scan that tells us that girls

:19:45.:19:51.

have gone for scans, everything is clear, they are not happy. What

:19:51.:19:57.

about that? This lady at the back talking about menopauseal symptoms,

:19:57.:20:02.

the NHS is there available. They are not doing anything. For people

:20:02.:20:08.

who have got a clinical need. 26 years old. You are saying they

:20:08.:20:13.

are entitled to an MRI scan simply to set their minds at rest to see

:20:13.:20:17.

if they will pursue the clinic. needing to to the GP and get the

:20:17.:20:21.

referral. I have got it and got cancelled off the NHS. The trouble

:20:21.:20:24.

is I asked talk about your individual situation. I don't know

:20:24.:20:28.

why they cancelled it. Neither do they, they wouldn't tell me, they

:20:28.:20:33.

put the phone down on me. It is not getting filtered, there is no clear

:20:33.:20:38.

line, it is not straight down the line. We need a system put in place.

:20:38.:20:43.

There is a system in place, I specifically asked the Chief

:20:43.:20:47.

Medical Officer to write again to GPs. We will put that up on an NHS

:20:47.:20:51.

Choices website so you can see it. What undertaking will you give

:20:52.:20:56.

these women tonight? undertaking is the NHS is available,

:20:56.:21:01.

free for you. They arele telling you it doesn't work. People

:21:01.:21:07.

stkpwhrrb they are telling you it doesn't work? People want the NHS

:21:07.:21:13.

just to help. If your clinic won't see you, you need to go to the GP,

:21:13.:21:17.

the GP can arrange for a scan for you, you need to be able to get the

:21:17.:21:23.

reassurance you need, or not, or have the implant removed. And some

:21:23.:21:28.

women have had them removed, some women have been scanned, some have

:21:28.:21:36.

not. Why don't you ask the Chief Medical Officer or someone to issue

:21:36.:21:39.

an instruction? I went to the doctor, he said to me, the other

:21:39.:21:42.

day, he helped me from the beginning he said there is nothing

:21:42.:21:46.

they can do. Somebody's doctor, who was on one of the for yums laughed

:21:46.:21:51.

at that letter, and said, gave it back to her. I know you have

:21:51.:21:54.

guidelines, they are not all following them. I think you have

:21:54.:21:59.

hit the nail on the head, that's what I have heard before, which is

:21:59.:22:04.

why we reissued it, which is why we will put it up tonight, so all of

:22:04.:22:06.

you have got that information. If you are not getting the treatment

:22:06.:22:11.

you need, you need to contact your local PCT, who will make sure you

:22:11.:22:14.

will get the treatment, that is what they are there for. I want to

:22:14.:22:18.

move the conversation on a little bit, if I may, the editor of the

:22:18.:22:23.

Sun, up before the inquiry into the press today, tried to explain away

:22:23.:22:28.

his paper's page 3 girls, by saying they celebrated natural beauty. The

:22:28.:22:31.

point about breast implants is they are not natural, the intriguing

:22:31.:22:35.

question may be more intriguing to men than women, is why women would

:22:35.:22:38.

choose to have foreign objects stuck into their bodies. This is

:22:38.:22:44.

what two of our guests here tonight felt.

:22:44.:22:50.

When I was younger I always felt very confident about myself. I

:22:50.:22:59.

never saw myself as having cosmetic surgery in the future.

:22:59.:23:05.

I started having children at 20, I'm 44 now, I have six children. I

:23:05.:23:10.

breast fed them all, I looked at my breasted and one seemed different,

:23:10.:23:14.

and I decided to go ahead and have surgery on myself. Anyone with

:23:14.:23:17.

children will realise they don't feel the same as they used before,

:23:17.:23:21.

that feeling that was before, to me was what I wanted to try to grab

:23:21.:23:25.

back. I think if someone was to say it is vanity and being vain, I

:23:25.:23:29.

would probably say, yeah, you are right, because this is how I have

:23:29.:23:32.

been brought up to see myself, I like to go out, and I like to look

:23:32.:23:36.

good. I like to walk the street and feel confident. So, yeah, probably

:23:36.:23:41.

a bit of vanity does come into that, what is the problem with that. Just

:23:41.:23:45.

because a woman wants to look good, we put make-up on to feel good, we

:23:45.:23:49.

dye our hair to feel good, what is the problem with having surgery to

:23:49.:23:56.

feel good. I didn't do it for vanity, I did it

:23:56.:24:02.

for personal reasons. It was what I wanted, to make me a whole person,

:24:02.:24:11.

make me feel more like a woman. I chose to have breast surgery

:24:12.:24:18.

because I had a hysterectomy, after I had my two boys. I didn't feel

:24:18.:24:25.

womanly, because I had no breast tissue after having my two boys. So

:24:25.:24:30.

I was really depressed, I went into a really deep depression. So I went

:24:30.:24:35.

to see my GP, and my GP said to me, if it is what you want, and what

:24:35.:24:42.

you feel is right, then go ahead, if it makes you happy. Sow I did.

:24:42.:24:50.

-- so I did. Then after my surgery, I felt so much better, a lot more

:24:50.:24:59.

womanly, more whole as a person. Katie Price, the former topless

:24:59.:25:05.

model known as Jordan joins us now, as does the author of the Beautiful

:25:05.:25:12.

Losers, Naomi Wolf. You have had -- the beauty Myth, Naomi Wolf. You

:25:12.:25:17.

have had several operations, what would your advice to the 18-year-

:25:17.:25:24.

old? If I had my way there would be an age limit, up it to 21. I had my

:25:24.:25:29.

first boob job at 18, it is too young. You don't counsel against it,

:25:29.:25:33.

it is a risky procedure? procedure is risky, of course it is,

:25:33.:25:37.

you are going under the knife, it is anaesthetic. People should know,

:25:38.:25:42.

any cosmetic surgery, if you are going under the knife, it is a big

:25:42.:25:46.

risk. Have they made you happy? have had bad experiences, and I was

:25:46.:25:49.

recommended what was I thought the best doctor. It is not the best

:25:50.:25:53.

doctor and the best boob job, it is about your body and how your body

:25:53.:25:58.

takes to it. Having implants, anything foreign you put in your

:25:58.:26:02.

body your body can naturally reject it. People have problems with

:26:02.:26:06.

anything. No, I would say I'm happy with them, I should be now, I have

:26:06.:26:10.

had enough done. I was going to say, to keep on changing you weren't

:26:10.:26:14.

happy with how they were? trouble is, I don't know about you

:26:14.:26:19.

ladies how many boob jobs you have had, when I first had my implants I

:26:19.:26:23.

always knew I wanted them bigger, it took me three sizes to get to

:26:23.:26:31.

the size I wanted. If they had done them initially it would have been

:26:31.:26:37.

fine. You had three them smaller? had three kids and they drop, I had

:26:37.:26:40.

them smaller. How did we get to the stage where women are changing

:26:40.:26:44.

their body shape to make them happier? It is two different things,

:26:44.:26:51.

we can talk about the pressure to fit in the one-size-fits-all idea.

:26:51.:26:54.

But women have been lied to, and by the people who are supposed to

:26:54.:26:58.

represent them. It breaks my heart. There is 25 years of data, which if

:26:58.:27:02.

you don't know this, I respectfully don't think you are in the right

:27:02.:27:05.

job, confirming that these breast implants. You are addressing these

:27:05.:27:11.

comments to the minister? Of course I am. She is in the wrong job?

:27:11.:27:16.

she doesn't know this, and millions know it, I wrote a book about it in

:27:16.:27:21.

1993, that was reported in every major media outlet, and the Food

:27:21.:27:25.

and Drug Administration in the United States outlawed silicone

:27:25.:27:28.

breast implants because they were giving the kinds of problems you

:27:28.:27:34.

ladies were suffering from, will you please puss-like symptoms,

:27:34.:27:39.

autoimmune disorders, anxiety, jitters, diabetes-like system,

:27:39.:27:44.

inflamation, swelling, rupt turs. I'm not a scientist, I wrote the

:27:44.:27:49.

beauty myth when I was 26 years old, I'm aing English major. I saw in

:27:49.:27:54.

British -- I'm an English major. But I saw in British Medical

:27:54.:27:58.

Journals, those doctors putting the implants in, were sold insurance

:27:58.:28:04.

because there is a 35-70% rupture rate, you have to order in

:28:04.:28:08.

multiples because they will rupture in women. The women's magazines I

:28:08.:28:13.

was reading was saying it is like changing your dress, and it is

:28:13.:28:17.

people like you who need to tell the truth. I am telling the truth,

:28:17.:28:22.

and I resent that. Any operation carries a risk. You said there is

:28:23.:28:29.

no data, ...I Think it is really important that we will have a

:28:29.:28:35.

review of the whole cosmetic industry. There is data already.

:28:35.:28:40.

are in this because we have PIP implants put in our body that

:28:40.:28:44.

shouldn't have been there. feels there is data around, I'm not

:28:44.:28:50.

lying I tell what you I know today. Silicone migrates into the human

:28:50.:28:53.

body and causes these problems. weren't we told about that, if they

:28:53.:28:57.

are countries know about that. Given from what we know you

:28:57.:29:01.

believe? It is not my opinion. About female beauty. I'm not

:29:01.:29:06.

talking about silicone implants, I am talking about the implants, but

:29:06.:29:09.

not the medical consequences, I'm talking about your beliefs about

:29:09.:29:15.

women's body shapes and what women do to their bodies to conform to

:29:15.:29:19.

beauty, what do you think about the women? I think they made reasonable

:29:19.:29:22.

decisions based on what they knew and experiences and pressures they

:29:22.:29:25.

were having. And people they trust, like the Government. You heard the

:29:25.:29:28.

woman on the documentary say she can't believe the Government would

:29:28.:29:31.

allow something that could cause terrible health problems to be put

:29:31.:29:36.

into my body. These Harlow street doctors are making millions of

:29:36.:29:39.

pounds -- Harley Street doctors are making millions. They did it

:29:39.:29:43.

because they wanted to feel better about themselves or the predicament

:29:43.:29:47.

in which they found themselves. If cosmetic surgery makes them feel

:29:47.:29:51.

better about themselves, makes them hatchy, that's all right is it?

:29:51.:29:55.

think a woman should be allowed to do whatever they want with their

:29:55.:29:58.

bodies, but they are not children and deserve real information. There

:29:58.:30:03.

is a double standard, you don't have major industries putting

:30:03.:30:09.

dangerous, proven to rupture, up to 70% rates, into mens' bodies, there

:30:09.:30:15.

would be a huge joit cry, heads would roll, women are treated like

:30:15.:30:20.

guinea pigs in our culture, it is not right. Katie Price, did you

:30:20.:30:23.

feel under pressure to have the changes to your body that you made?

:30:23.:30:28.

No, even when I was at school, I remember at 16 I went to Transform,

:30:28.:30:32.

and said I wanted bigger boobs, I wore the pads in the bra. Why did

:30:32.:30:36.

you do that? I don't know, I have always wanted bigger boobs, they

:30:36.:30:40.

were small for me, they were like a B, a perfect size, but I knew I

:30:40.:30:43.

wanted bigger ones. They wouldn't do it and said come back when you

:30:43.:30:49.

are 18. Why? I didn't do it for my job. I did page 3 natural, they had

:30:49.:30:54.

a debate, when I said I would get the boobs done, the Sun had a

:30:54.:30:58.

public debate, and the high percentage said don't do it, I went

:30:58.:31:01.

and did it for myself. You must have thought about it more, when

:31:01.:31:06.

you say you did it for you? wanted bigger boobs, in clothes I

:31:06.:31:09.

feel better, they feel better. But people have to remember, you don't

:31:09.:31:13.

have to have big boobs, some people are happy to have them lifted, time

:31:13.:31:18.

of the month they change. It is interesting what Naomi raised about

:31:18.:31:24.

it being a womens' issue, I have heard there are young men having

:31:24.:31:27.

pec implants, young men having testicular implants, you need have

:31:27.:31:33.

had a nip and a tuck for all we know. Not yet. There is a lot of

:31:33.:31:36.

pressure on young men, being irregular in order, actually. Young

:31:36.:31:41.

men, 16, 17-year-olds are taking body enhancing drugs and going to

:31:41.:31:45.

the gym. This is something that is crossing all the genders now.

:31:45.:31:51.

sorry, for give me, the journalist in -- forgive me, the journalist in

:31:51.:31:53.

me can't bear you are not giving these women a straight answer about

:31:53.:31:56.

what your Government will do to pay for the health problems they are

:31:56.:32:01.

suffering because the Government lied to them and didn't engage in

:32:01.:32:04.

proper regulatory behaviour. You misrepresented, you told them on

:32:04.:32:07.

national television there is no evidence, that is a lie. Either you

:32:07.:32:11.

don't know or it is a lie. I think you need to be accountable for what

:32:11.:32:16.

you said. I take huge offence to you saying that I'm lying, because

:32:16.:32:24.

I can only tell you the best evidence I have. If I knew

:32:24.:32:29.

something that I wasn't saying today, I would say it. Are you

:32:29.:32:32.

aware, the Food and Drug Administration of the United States

:32:32.:32:35.

of America, outlawed silicone breast implants because of the

:32:35.:32:37.

health problems they were causing in women.

:32:37.:32:42.

What tests have you done to ensure that these are safe? To be left in

:32:42.:32:48.

our bodies? I rely on the evidence that we are given. Can you answer

:32:48.:32:52.

the question. They deserve an answer to that question. I can give

:32:52.:32:56.

them. There is a whole body. not give it now. Because I don't

:32:56.:33:02.

have it on me. Then you are underprepared. There haven't been

:33:02.:33:06.

any tested. All I can tell you now is the information I have. I have

:33:06.:33:10.

this information, I'm not lying to you, it is that at the moment there

:33:10.:33:16.

is no evidence to suggest, what I am saying, if Naomi is raising all

:33:16.:33:19.

sorts of other issues, and I will look into that. What is interesting

:33:19.:33:25.

is I haven't heard from them before now. Can I say something. Hang on a

:33:25.:33:30.

second, please, if everyone is talking at once, we can't hear

:33:30.:33:35.

anybody. Let's consider what effect this particular event is likely to

:33:35.:33:40.

have upon the desire of women like these women here, or Katie, to

:33:40.:33:44.

change their appearance. Would it make you think twice about ever

:33:44.:33:50.

having a procedure again? Like I say, I'm sympathetic with these

:33:50.:33:55.

girls, because I'm, touch wood, mine aren't PIP implants, as far as

:33:55.:33:58.

I know they are fine. Anything you put in your body that is foreign,

:33:58.:34:01.

there is always a risk, because it is not natural. People should know

:34:01.:34:07.

that. In their case, you know, I'm...Do You think people will be

:34:07.:34:11.

put off? I think they will be put off by what they hear, but they

:34:12.:34:16.

will go somewhere that don't have PIP implants and they will be fine

:34:16.:34:22.

again. It is just, it is torturing me, because, you know in 1993, you

:34:22.:34:27.

could see, I was warning everyone in Britain, these things are going

:34:28.:34:32.

to rupture, and here are the problems. Imen implant in my lower

:34:32.:34:35.

back, it is a medical device, it has been through rigorous testing,

:34:35.:34:41.

I said yes to the implant because I was assured that it was not going

:34:41.:34:45.

to go bad in five years and leak garbage into my body that would

:34:45.:34:53.

give me will you please puss and autoimmune dysfunction. These women

:34:53.:34:58.

-- lupus, and auto-immune dysfunction. People put all kinds

:34:58.:35:01.

of medical devices in their bodies that have been tested. When things

:35:01.:35:05.

go wrong people are accountable, there are lawsuits, Government

:35:05.:35:08.

ministers show up to say they are pulling it from the market because

:35:08.:35:12.

people are getting ill and suffering. Over and over again it

:35:12.:35:16.

is women's bodies and health, where it is like, let's empathise with

:35:16.:35:24.

you and not do anything concrete. When I saw my surgeon, and he said

:35:24.:35:29.

here's the implant, he gave me pins, squeeze it, I punched it, I threw

:35:29.:35:34.

it on the floor, I did all of it. I was paranoid thinking I want to

:35:34.:35:40.

know if it is safe. He said you will probably be dead, if you burst

:35:40.:35:45.

that impact. Why when I put loads of pins in it, and I squeezed it,

:35:45.:35:49.

it didn't leak. As far as I'm concerned that is fine. We are

:35:49.:35:53.

going to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Anyone expecting the

:35:53.:35:56.

Russian Foreign Minister to emerge from his visit to Syria today with

:35:56.:35:59.

a plan to bring peace to the country will have to wait.

:35:59.:36:02.

Precisely what he told President Assad we don't know. His claim that

:36:02.:36:06.

the President was totally committed to stopping the violence, was more

:36:06.:36:09.

than slightly at odds with the fact that Government troops are still

:36:09.:36:16.

shelling ebbs are. The quandary for the west is that -- shelling rebels.

:36:16.:36:22.

The quandary for the west is what are they to do. Lord Owen and the

:36:23.:36:29.

Tory MP Lord Stuart will discuss that in a moment. First this report.

:36:29.:36:33.

In Syria's embattled opposition strongholds, they curse Russia.

:36:33.:36:38.

But on the avenues of the capital, Damascus, they have been cheering

:36:38.:36:44.

it today. In the city of Homs, centre of the uprising, more died

:36:44.:36:50.

as the shelling continued. But in Damascus, crowds, estimated by

:36:50.:36:55.

state TV at one million, welcomed the Foreign Minister of the country

:36:55.:36:59.

that vetoed a UN resolution to end the bloodshed.

:36:59.:37:03.

Many were forced to come, the opposition claimed. But they

:37:03.:37:09.

sounded loyal enough. TRANSLATION: We have come here to

:37:09.:37:12.

welcome the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, and the

:37:12.:37:15.

intelligence chief, and to thank them for the support of Syria.

:37:15.:37:19.

TRANSLATION: The Russians will be able to see her living in safety,

:37:19.:37:23.

how the saboteurs have destroyed our country.

:37:23.:37:26.

Foreign Minister, Lavrov, and President Assad, apparently agreed

:37:26.:37:31.

on the need for a national dialogue in Syria, and for the Arab observer

:37:31.:37:34.

mission to continue. TRANSLATION: Russia is convinced of the need to

:37:34.:37:39.

retain and expand the mission, which is a serious, stablising

:37:39.:37:45.

factor in Syria. But with tanks on the streets, the observer mission,

:37:45.:37:52.

currently on hold, and Arab gulf states today Watchdog their

:37:52.:37:55.

ambassadors from Syria -- withdrawing their ambassadors, time

:37:55.:37:59.

is running out. It is too late in the game. The opposition doesn't

:37:59.:38:02.

want to talk to President Assad any more. Part of the international

:38:02.:38:08.

community, including the west and some Arab states, have essentially

:38:08.:38:15.

given up on Assad, on attempts to solve the situation, by means of a

:38:15.:38:18.

peaceful dialogue. There is more and more talk, one hears, both in

:38:18.:38:25.

the west, and in places like the gulf, of helping the opposition to

:38:25.:38:30.

topple Assad, and have a regime change in Damascus.

:38:30.:38:36.

It is easy to see why Russia, which provides Syria's military with arms,

:38:36.:38:40.

and has a naval supply base on its coast, might want to keep President

:38:40.:38:45.

Assad in power. But for Moscow, there is also a wider principle to

:38:45.:38:51.

defend. The Russian leadership does not believe in military

:38:51.:38:57.

intervention, especially if it comes amid civil war, the Russian

:38:57.:39:05.

leadership is also against regime change, on virtually anywhere. This

:39:05.:39:09.

is partly self-serving, they sometimes see themselves on the

:39:09.:39:16.

receiving end of other people's efforts to effect a regime change.

:39:16.:39:20.

The Kremlin is determined to limit a new opposition movement in Russia

:39:20.:39:25.

itself, but it believes -- that it believes is being encouraged by the

:39:25.:39:28.

west. But in Syria the movements to unseat President Assad may be

:39:28.:39:33.

unstoppable. It is not just that the opposition

:39:33.:39:37.

no longer wants dialogue, the experience of this former minister,

:39:37.:39:40.

I met recently in Damascus, suggests the regime doesn't want it

:39:40.:39:46.

either. He put forward this proposal for

:39:46.:39:49.

dialogue with the opposition months ago. He said President Assad met

:39:50.:39:53.

him once last September to discuss it, but there has been no further

:39:53.:39:58.

interest from anyone in power. TRANSLATION: Until now, there are

:39:58.:40:04.

no cracks in the Government, or the top military brass, or the ruling

:40:04.:40:08.

bathe party, on the other side it is not pos -- Ba'ath Party, on the

:40:08.:40:11.

other side, it is not possible to talk to people on the streets,

:40:11.:40:14.

because they have no leaders. Increasingly both sides think force

:40:14.:40:19.

is now the only way forward. The Free Syrian Army, made up of

:40:19.:40:23.

defectors from the state's forces, is hoping for arms from countries

:40:23.:40:28.

such as Qatar, which supplied the Libyan rebels last year. But

:40:28.:40:31.

geopolitics around Syria are very different.

:40:31.:40:35.

The Syrian opposition controls no stretch of territory. Let alone any

:40:36.:40:40.

border or coastline. The country's neighbours include Iraq, which has

:40:40.:40:47.

close links to Syria's greatest ally, Iran, Jordan, keen to avoid

:40:47.:40:54.

antagonising a larger neighbour, and lib non-, where the -- Lebanon,

:40:54.:41:00.

where the Hezbollah is the largest force. Turkey is against Assad, but

:41:00.:41:04.

Turkish diplomats have told me the idea of a protected buffer zone on

:41:04.:41:09.

the other side of its border, inside Syria, where the Free Syrian

:41:09.:41:15.

Army could mobilise, is impractical, politically and militarily.

:41:15.:41:19.

For all their efforts, then, outside powers seem unable to

:41:19.:41:24.

ensure either a military or political solution to the crisis.

:41:24.:41:27.

Tragically for now, there will be more talking among world leaders,

:41:27.:41:30.

and more shooting on Syria's streets.

:41:30.:41:35.

With us now is the former Foreign Secretary and the Balkans peace

:41:35.:41:40.

negotiator. We're also joined by the Conservative MP, Rory Stewart,

:41:40.:41:46.

who in a previous life was a deputy govern nor in southern Iraq. Given

:41:46.:41:51.

that -- Govan nor in southern Iraq. Given that western military option

:41:51.:41:59.

has been ruled out, what is left? There is there are very few options.

:41:59.:42:02.

There needs to be a regional solution, we have to restrain

:42:02.:42:06.

ourselves in Britain for trying to believe we are the solution to this

:42:06.:42:11.

problem. Many of the things we can do we have done. Such as? Sanctions,

:42:11.:42:15.

we have been through 19 rounds of sanctions, 100 people supported the

:42:15.:42:18.

opposition and the Arab League. What we can't do, I believe, it

:42:18.:42:22.

wouldn't make sense to do, is no- fly zones, safe areas, these kinds

:42:22.:42:28.

of things would be very dangerous. What options do you think are open?

:42:28.:42:32.

Not many, I think you could persevere with the United Nations,

:42:32.:42:35.

because you don't succeed in the UN, doesn't mean it is exhausted. You

:42:35.:42:40.

have to go back time and time again often, until you can get a better

:42:41.:42:45.

consensus. I think a solution probably does have to involve

:42:45.:42:48.

Russia accepting that they are party to a UN resolution. I know

:42:48.:42:54.

that is difficult for some people to accept, but Russia has interests.

:42:54.:42:57.

The old Soviet Union was a significant power in Syria, and

:42:57.:43:05.

they are not going to be brushed aside. It seems to me you have to

:43:05.:43:13.

go on arguing for a plan pretyo similar -- pretty similar to that

:43:13.:43:16.

offered by the Arab League. The one thing I would like to see involved

:43:16.:43:20.

more in the dialogue, not necessarily in action, and they are

:43:20.:43:24.

wise and have real interests, that is Turkey. Has it been sensible to

:43:24.:43:27.

commit ourselves to one side of what is now effectively a civil

:43:28.:43:35.

war? In the end we needed to make that choice. Bashir is inlegitimate,

:43:35.:43:39.

cruel and unpopular, the future has to be one wourt him. That was the

:43:39.:43:43.

right decision. I think that is an interesting point about Russia,

:43:43.:43:47.

Russia finally coming on side in Kosovo was very useful. The fact

:43:47.:43:50.

that Russia starts being non-co- operative, and starts making

:43:50.:43:55.

trouble, can put it in a strong position to co-operate later.

:43:55.:44:00.

is the Russian objective in this conflict? Not ob isolated, pushed

:44:00.:44:04.

aside, and -- not to be isolated, pushed aside and to retain a

:44:05.:44:09.

measure of interest in a Syria that will probably be a Syria without

:44:09.:44:15.

the Assads. The Assad family has form, you know, they brutally

:44:15.:44:19.

suppressed the very city they are now bombing again. I think that we

:44:19.:44:25.

may well watch and see that. Now, I only have this reservation, never

:44:26.:44:31.

rule out the use of force, when you are dealing with braual savage

:44:31.:44:35.

people, there might come a situation -- brutal, ZAFage people,

:44:35.:44:39.

there might come a situation where you have to use it. I agree it is

:44:39.:44:43.

not like Libya, I don't see a role for no-fly zones. But there comes a

:44:43.:44:48.

point, in any civil war, in modern times, when I don't think we are

:44:48.:44:53.

ready to just simply let it go on. Would you counsel against the use

:44:53.:44:57.

of force? I think it would be very foolish for Britain, NATO or the

:44:57.:45:00.

United States, Turkey is the only player that could possibly get

:45:00.:45:06.

involved. But the Turkish military relations are bad at the moment,

:45:06.:45:10.

there is no demand for that action. Turkey could be the only one but I

:45:10.:45:15.

don't see them do it. I was in Ankara last month, there is no

:45:15.:45:18.

doubt the military leaders were looking seriously at what they

:45:18.:45:22.

could do. I think honestly they have come up with the answer there

:45:22.:45:26.

isn't much they can do. It still means in any Contact Group or

:45:26.:45:30.

discussion group, we should try to get a stronger role for Turkey.

:45:30.:45:35.

Does this, though, look to you like a regime that is anywhere near

:45:35.:45:39.

collapse? No. And one of the reasons for that, unfortunately, is

:45:39.:45:43.

there is too much regional support from players like Iran, to some

:45:44.:45:47.

extent from Iraq. Even Lebanon hasn't actually been as co-

:45:47.:45:50.

operative as we would like. It is very, very tragic this situation,

:45:50.:45:54.

it is a horrible rae regime, we have to be consistent -- horrible

:45:54.:45:57.

regime, we have to be consistent that it must go. At the moment we

:45:57.:46:03.

don't have to give the impression that it is on its last legs.

:46:03.:46:08.

agree with that. Israel is saying nothing, watch carefully there,

:46:08.:46:12.

they know more about Syria than any of us, they know it inside and

:46:12.:46:16.

outside. That would completely change the nature of the game?

:46:16.:46:20.

Israel is very ambivalent about what will happen, they will watch

:46:21.:46:25.

very carefully, they are not sure which of it hits their interests.

:46:25.:46:30.

In the final analysis, this is going to come down to a

:46:30.:46:36.

humanitarian issue, does it get so bad that we just can't stand aside.

:46:36.:46:42.

At that juncture, would Russia come into some form of joint initiative?

:46:42.:46:47.

I like to think they would. Thank you both very much. That may be too

:46:47.:46:51.

optimistic. That's all from Newsnight tonight,

:46:51.:46:55.

much more tomorrow, until then, much more tomorrow, until then,

:46:55.:47:05.
:47:05.:47:27.

Good evening, it is turning into a bitterly cold night out there, it

:47:27.:47:30.

could get as low as minus 15 on one or two spots of central England by

:47:31.:47:37.

the end of the night. A cold start to the day. A dusting of snow in

:47:37.:47:41.

the south-east, compounding the ice issues. More cloud into the

:47:41.:47:45.

afternoon in the north, strengthening breeze, it will feel

:47:45.:47:49.

cold. Further snow flurries across the south-east corner, here cold

:47:49.:47:53.

because of a raw north-east wind, adding to the wind chill. To the

:47:53.:47:57.

west and across a good part of Wales, it will be a fine and bright

:47:57.:48:01.

day, long spells of sunshine. It will be a cold one, especially in

:48:01.:48:05.

the breeze. It is starting to get a strength to the sunshine. It will

:48:05.:48:08.

feel probably a little less chilly. Northern Ireland though, a

:48:08.:48:12.

different story, cloud and outbreaks of rain throughout the

:48:12.:48:16.

day. The rain easing off at times. Same too across northern and

:48:16.:48:19.

western Scotland, there is a risk of ice in the short-term, in the

:48:19.:48:22.

east of Scotland it should be destroy and bright. Change is afoot

:48:22.:48:26.

for the northern half of the country into Thursday. First of all,

:48:26.:48:30.

you will notice some rain, the temperatures start to lift up, not

:48:30.:48:34.

much changing further south. Here temperatures struggling to get

:48:34.:48:37.

above freezing. A bit of cloud as well. The coldest weather there

:48:37.:48:41.

across much of England and Wales, mildest Scotland and Northern

:48:41.:48:45.

Jeremy Paxman chairs a debate on faulty breast implants and the cosmetic surgery industry with former page 3 model Katie Price. Plus the latest from Syria.


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