08/02/2012 Newsnight


08/02/2012

With opposition to the government's NHS reform bill growing, is anyone really sure what the legislation is for any more? Plus Greek debt crisis and more, with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Another day, another slap around the chops for the legislation the

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Government says is vital to make the NHS work properly. The Prime

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Minister, and Health Secretary, say they won't wash their hands of the

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bill to reform healthcare. But how much damage is it doing?

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Two volumes, hundreds of amendments, as the complexity of this bill has

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grown, well the politics have got actually quite simple. It boils

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down to this, who does the public trust to run the health service.

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We have got a Health Minister, and GPs on opposite sides of the fence.

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Would you believe a promise made by these Greek politicians, because if

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they can't be trusted, the euro is in big, big trouble.

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Paul Mason is here. Greece just signed up for years of

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austerity to avoid default. But is it actually an economic suicide

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note. Is sending this perfectly run of

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the mill helicopter pilot to the south Atlantic part of mill

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terrorising the Falklands. The Argentines claim it is. Who is the

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bigger imperialist, Britain or Argentina.

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No captain, now no manager, Fabio Capello resigns as England boss,

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leaving the country's national game in crisis, again.

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The work speaks for itself, but in case you are in any doubt, the

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world famous, Yayoi Kusama, puts us right on what she's trying to do

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with her art. (she sings)

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According to the Prime Minister, there are huge numbers of people in

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this country, who support his plans to reform the health service.

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Perhaps they are all suffering from Lauren giet tis. One professional

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body after another has come out against them, over 100 Government

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amendments have lopped off bits and pieces. The Conservatives claim its

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vital organs are intact, but there are louder than louder than usual

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moans from Downing Street, about how the Health Secretary has made a

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botch job of the whole thing. David Grossman, clamped on the blue light

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and sped down to Westminster. You can't say David Cameron hasn't

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put in the hours trying to sell his health reforms.

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He has met hundreds of patients and health professionals and scrubbed

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up on countless occasions. But now, some are suggesting he would be

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better off washing his hands of the whole enterprise. Today, another

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body of health professionals turned against the reforms.

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We want the Government to drop the bill, because we think it will lead

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to increased inequalities in health, we think it will lead to increased

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bureaucracy, we think services will become less integrated, rather than

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working together like they really should be, and we think it could

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lead to waste of public money. Prime Minister's Questions, Labour

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tried to increase the pressure on Government. He knows in his heart

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of hearts, this is a complete disaster. That is why his aides are

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saying the Health Secretary should be taken out and shot, because they

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know it is a disaster. The reality about the bill is this, the doctors

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know it is bad for the NHS, the nurses know it is bad for the NHS,

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and patients know it is bad for the NHS, every day he fights for this

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bill, every day trust in him on the NHS ebbs away, and every day it

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books clearer, the -- becomes clearer, the health service is not

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safe in his hands. I have to tell him the career prospects for our

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right honourable friend is better than his. The Conservative Party

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have heard the Prime Minister deliver for ematic support for the

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bill than that, but Mr Cameron couldn't have been clearer. We are

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cutting bureaucracy in the NHS, we are taking out �4.5 billion

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bureaucracy, to be ploughed into patient care. The Health Secretary,

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Andrew Lansley, has drawn a fair bit of criticism for the way he has

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handled this bill. According to newspapers, hostile briefings,

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including that comment, supposedly from a Number Ten insider, that he

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should, "be taken out and shot". Andrew Lansley started formulating

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his master plan for NHS reform, six years before he became Health

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Secretary. Well before anyone was even talking about austerity. But

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the act is, he's having to enact it at a time when there is pressure on

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Government spending. And this, according to some

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strategists, has led to a fatal confusion in the public's mind as

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to the Government's motives. Are they doing it because they want a

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better health service, or are they doing this because they want to

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save money? We have to separate out the reform itself, the reform bill,

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from what the NHS has been doing, and has been planning to do for

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some years, when it knew the money would flatten out in real term. It

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knew there would be a gap, as it were, between the money, and what

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they wanted the NHS it do, in terms of quality of care and meeting high

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depemands. That plan has been form -- demands. That plan has been

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formulated some time ago and the NHS is pursuing it. The tactics

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used, cut management costs, make savings there, another part of the

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plan to reduce the prices that hospitals can charge for their

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goods and services in real terms. That puts a lot of pressure on

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hospitals to then look at their costs, and can they produce hips

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more cheaply, and so on. That was going on any way. In a sense,

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regardless of the bill, regardless of the potential reforms, that

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would have to go on. David Cameron worked very hard in

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opposition to try to neutral yois voter suspicion about his party's

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at -- neutralise voter suspicion about his party's motives.

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believe the NHS is one of the greatest achievements of the 20th

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century. But pollsters say this work is now

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being undone. Traditionally Labour have always been the party of the

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NHS, in the same way for law and order is the safe ground for the

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Conservatives. But at the time of the last election that gap between

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the two parties had closed significantly. However, recent

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polling we have done seems to suggest that gap is actually

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widening again, with the Tories not being seen as the party that has

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the best policies. Today, in the Lords, the Government was defeated

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on its health proposals once again. Some experts believe, however, that

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some of this opposition is based on a mistaken view of what the bill is

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trying to do. It is not about introducing

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competition, we have already had competition in the NHS of a sort,

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it has been regulated. We have already had patient choice of a

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sort, regulateed and constrained in certain ways. The bill is pushing

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that forward. The opposition, and many of them see this as a brand

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new thing introducing competition, I don't think it is. In part, some

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of these amendments, and some of the opposition, are partly based on

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a false idea about what is going on with the reform bill, and what is

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going on before within the NHS. We're a senior orthopaedic. Can you

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come and talk to me. Then as the Prime Minister has found out before,

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the relationship between health professionals and politicians has

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never been entirely easy. We will come back. I'm not having it, out.

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Now a short while ago I spoke to the Health Minister, Simon Burns.

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How come you have managed to make such a mess of this bill? I don't

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think we have made a mess of it. How many amendments have you had?

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We have had 1,000 amendments in the House of Commons, which 750 were

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technical amendments to change the name to commissioning groups for

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GPs. If you are talking about how many have we accepted to improve

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and strengthen the bill in the Commons, it would probably be about

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100. The bill was wrong on 100 points, before you got these

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amendments? It was pblt wrong, we went out to consult the NHS furg

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the future for yum, they came -- during future for yum, they came

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back with suggestions to strengthen it. We have the BMA, The Royal

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College of Nurses, The Royal College of Midwives, the Chartered

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Society of Physiotherapies, the main unions, The Royal College of

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Child health, The Royal College of Pathologists, The Royal College of

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Physicians, The Royal College of Psychiatrists, The Royal College of

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Occupational therapists and the British die at the timeic

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association, all thinking the bill is wrong. If you look at the number

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of organisations you have read out, their responses to the White Paper,

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there were elements of the bill that they approved and supported.

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The BMA itself, which has come out against it. They said their special

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emergency meeting last summer, they voted for GP commissioning. Because

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of the size of the subject and range of subjects being dealt with,

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there are things they like and don't like. On the other side of

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that coin, there are a number of organisations, like The Royal

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College of Gynaecologists, the Family Doctors Association, the

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National Association of Primary Care. They do support it. What is

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most important is the people at the forefront of the health service,

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delivering the service. Like GPs, who are beginning to commission,

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and who are enthusiastic. I find as I go around and talk to them, they

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are already working with the PCTs to begin commissioning, they are

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enthusiastic that they are empowered to look after their

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patients. Frankly, the most important thing about this

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legislation, is it is concerned with improving the quality of care

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for patients, and the results of their treatment. So you say. But

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The Royal College of Nurse, midwives, aniseists, opt molgists,

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paediatrics, and the rest of it, are they not some how frontline.

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Are they not slightly more than a politician? A number of those

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organisations, like The Royal College of GPs, like the BMJ today,

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they have formed their opinions on surveys they have carried out,

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which are self-selecting, they are of a very small minority of their

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members. You can vote as often as you like in these surveys, to give

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distorted views, then they have reached a conclusion, which is not

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representative. And you honestly believe that the �20 billion, which

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the health service has to save, can be more easily saved by putting the

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organisation into a state of semi- paralysis, through this bill?

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evidence of the NHS at the moment does not suggest anything like

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semi-paralysis. It is rising to the challenges, as it has to, because

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of the impositions put on it through an increasing ageing

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population, an increasing drugs bill, which increased by �600

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million last year alone. It cannot stay still. Even Andy Burnham

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accepts that it needs to be reformed. He just will not come up

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with any concrete and relevant ideas of how to modernise it.

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is Number Ten briefing that your a second should be taken out and

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shot? Come on, you know they are not. Number Ten...They Are. Number

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Ten said yesterday in response to the story by Rachel Sylvester, that

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the Prime Minister fully supported Andrew Lansley. He has to say that?

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And he fully supports the bill. He's a hopeless communicator?

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is your opinion. No, that is the accusation from Number Ten? That is

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an unnamed source in an article. That is how they do it, you know

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that? I work with Andrew Lansley every day, I see the work he does,

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I see the way he has a total grasp of the workings and intricacies of

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the NHS. He has put together a bill that is meeting the challenges of

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the future of the NHS. We have Liz Kendall, the Labour health

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spokesperson here, as is Clare Gerada, also here from The Royal

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College of Practitioners, who opposes the plans.

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:12:32.:12:32.

Liz Kendall, you are not going to say there is no need for change?

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Absolutely not. In the NHS there is a big challenge to do more within

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constrained budget, while at the same time we face an ageing

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population. That will be big challenges. You also agree it has

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to save 20 billion? Absolute. billion? Absolutely. It is wrong to

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push a massive organisation through a change. You have just said it

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needs to change? It does, how it needs to change is to deliver more

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services in the community and at home. To better link up NHS

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services with social care. That koind of integration is going to be

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made far -- kind of integration is going to be made far harder by this

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bill. We oppose the bill, not because we are against reform, but

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because it won't help us make the reforms we need. Is Wales where the

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NHS is run by Labour, effectively, is that a model? In Wales they do

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things in their way. I think the Prime Minister made...Do You think

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they do it better than under the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats

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here? I think they do it in a different way. They certainly do.

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As you know, waiting lists are longer there, aren't they? There

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was a big dispute about what the Prime Minister said in PMQs today,

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and many of the figures that he gave on that were inaccurate.

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is no argument about the fact that Wales, where Labour runs the NHS,

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has worse outcomes in some respects, notably waiting lists. I want to

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focus on England. I want to talk about Wales, where is the model, is

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there a model? There is a model, that is about integrating health

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and social care, and shifting the focus towards prevention. You may

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have seen a select committee report out today, which said that actual

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low the best places where we are bringing together health and social

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care, are in care trusts. Those care trusts are going to be swept

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away by the bill. We are against the bill, not because we are

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against reform, but because we don't think the bill will help us

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get to the place we need to with the NHS. Let's broaden it out with

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two GPs. What do you think is wrong with the bill? There is so much,

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there is such a complex bill. as face it, doctors have opposed

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change time and time again in the NHS? I don't think we have, doctors

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or GPs, I will speak for GPs, we have had about ten reorganisations

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thrown at us, certainly over my clinical lifetime. You ask what's

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wrong with this bill, this bill will not achof the things that we

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need it to a-- achieve the things we want it to, with respect to the

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ageing population and rising costs. It will create more barriers

:15:05.:15:09.

between GPs being able to work with hospital specialists, it will drive

:15:09.:15:14.

up costs and bureaucracy. Why do you believe it is a good thing?

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need to take politics out of this, for a second. We have tried over

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years to reform the NHS and under all administration. In most cases

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we haven't done what we hoped to achieve. That is the past, tell us

:15:31.:15:34.

why you believe in this set of reforms? Because the only way to

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manage the process is to get the centre of the NHS, the bureaucracy,

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the big organisation, that is the centre of the NHS, to devolve power

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to the locality. I want to work in a place where I deal with a patient,

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a patient who is in front of me, a population in front of me and a

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population I understand. I believe I can do that better than somebody

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very far away from that patient. The argument is it involves doctors

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taking responsibility for decisions? Absolutely, and actually

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accepting they live within a system. Somebody has to take responsibility.

:16:05.:16:09.

There is nothing wrong with that, we absolutely agree with that.

:16:09.:16:14.

are you opposing it? It is like saying you have an airline pilot,

:16:14.:16:20.

you fly your plane, therefore you should build it. You just want the

:16:20.:16:25.

taxpayer to carry on writing blank cheques? Absolutely not, GPs have

:16:25.:16:29.

been delivering effective care for years, and we need to improve the

:16:29.:16:32.

situation. This bill won't achieve that, it will create more

:16:32.:16:36.

bureaucracy, more cost, it won't achieve what we want to do, which

:16:36.:16:39.

is better joint working. Somebody has to start taking responsibility

:16:39.:16:43.

for decisions within the NHS, don't they. What is wrong with doctors

:16:43.:16:49.

facing up to that? Joos There is nothing, I trained as a carer. Most

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GPs go into general practice because they want to care for their

:16:51.:16:55.

patients. Of course we want to do it. What we are losing sight of in

:16:55.:16:59.

all of this, is what lights the light for GPs, what will bring

:16:59.:17:02.

about change is reform of the provision. Is improving the way we

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deliver care to patients, and improving the relationships we have

:17:06.:17:11.

with our hospital colleagues. are shaking your head now.

:17:11.:17:20.

shaking my head and agree with it. We need to manage variation within

:17:20.:17:23.

the service. We must take responsibility for the service we

:17:23.:17:26.

provide. The only way to do that is by working in partnership with

:17:27.:17:30.

managers. This isn't about doctors or managers, it is about both.

:17:30.:17:34.

the accusation about bureaucracy, is a valid one, isn't it, if you

:17:34.:17:38.

lock at this legislation, it appears to have, somewhere, buried

:17:38.:17:41.

-- look at this legislation, it appears to have it, somewhere,

:17:42.:17:46.

buried within it, eight supervisory organisations, it is not one, it is

:17:46.:17:50.

not a devolution? The worry people like me have is around the

:17:50.:17:54.

implementation of the reforms. The worry people like me have is around

:17:54.:17:56.

the power the national commissioning board will have.

:17:56.:18:00.

Unless we actually make health local, we need a local health

:18:00.:18:03.

service, as well as a National Health Service, I think that is

:18:03.:18:08.

something we all agree upon. gave a list of the different royal

:18:08.:18:12.

colleges who now oppose the bill. Let me give the list of new levels

:18:12.:18:17.

of bureaucracy. The national commissioning board, clinical

:18:17.:18:23.

commissioning booths, clinical Senates, commissioning support

:18:23.:18:27.

groups, four regional clusters, I have no idea what all these

:18:27.:18:31.

different organisations are doing. This bill is creating more waste,

:18:31.:18:35.

more bureaucracy, and huge chaos at a time when the NHS faces the

:18:35.:18:40.

biggest financial and clinical challenge of its life. How nasty is

:18:40.:18:43.

this fight getting? We all want to make things better for patients.

:18:43.:18:47.

What we need to do, what the college is saying, let's make it

:18:47.:18:52.

safe, let's stop this bill, let's make it safe. There is a way of

:18:52.:18:57.

making it safe. Merge PCTs, they are already safe put GPs on the

:18:57.:19:02.

majority of the board of those. Then let's have a sensible debate

:19:02.:19:06.

on what the NHS should provide and how we deal with big health and

:19:06.:19:11.

social care issues facing us. That is what we should do. Hurry up and

:19:11.:19:14.

wait again? Which will take years to unpick, the only people to

:19:14.:19:19.

benefit will be the lawyers. I believe we are in a some what

:19:19.:19:23.

different place. Only today we had a really interesting and long, and

:19:23.:19:29.

productive debate around how we are going to manage the provider issues,

:19:29.:19:33.

the issues around co-operation and competition. All the organisations

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are represented there. In the workings we have between us, we

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agree about most things. If we take the politics out of this, we all

:19:42.:19:46.

want clinical commissioning to work, we want the local decision making.

:19:46.:19:49.

We should concentrate on the best way to achieve those. Don't you

:19:49.:19:56.

think it would be better if your party adopted a slightly mother

:19:56.:20:00.

constructive stance, Ed Milliband saying there is three months to

:20:00.:20:05.

save the NHS is a stupid comment? Andy Burnham has said. Why he's

:20:05.:20:08.

talking about three months to save the NHS? If the Government drops

:20:08.:20:12.

the bill, we will work with them and the professions to make

:20:12.:20:16.

clinical commissioning work. To give clinicians the control that

:20:16.:20:19.

they want, to drive changes in services, not structures. We have

:20:19.:20:23.

been through lots of structural reorganisation in the NHS, it

:20:23.:20:26.

hasn't delivered the results we need for future. That is the change

:20:26.:20:31.

we need. We will leave it there, we will be revisiting this next week

:20:31.:20:35.

and afterwards. Oh dear! It is good, isn't it, more discussion.

:20:35.:20:42.

Thank you all. The euro is saved, maybe or maybe not, Hallelujah.

:20:42.:20:46.

Nothing concentrates the mind like the prospect of being hanged in the

:20:46.:20:50.

morning, and faced with not getting the loan they need to stay inside

:20:50.:20:55.

the euro, politicians in Athens have apparently signed up to a deal

:20:55.:20:59.

on austerity measures. The 17 lucky countries of the eurozone get

:20:59.:21:03.

together tomorrow to decide if they can trust the geeks to stick to the

:21:03.:21:06.

deal they say they have -- Greeks to stick to the deal they have

:21:06.:21:11.

agreed. The three main parties in Greece

:21:11.:21:18.

have signed up to a draft deal, we know the basics of it. Bloomberg

:21:18.:21:21.

reported them a few hours ago. The Greeks are yet again being asked to

:21:21.:21:27.

sign up to a big austerity package. One they hadn't expected, a 22% cut

:21:27.:21:32.

in the minimum wage. In the next six months a huge number of knock-

:21:32.:21:36.

down sales of state-owned assets, big cuts in public spending and

:21:36.:21:41.

jobs. We think that is the first bit. The next bit is they get to

:21:41.:21:45.

write off about 100 billion euros worth of debt. That is the bit to

:21:45.:21:48.

come. After that we have to find out whether or not that explodes

:21:48.:21:52.

into the debt market. We think it probably won't because of the sheer

:21:52.:21:55.

volume of money the European Central Bank has pumped into the

:21:55.:22:00.

system. But, you know, I think we are a third of the way to an

:22:00.:22:04.

orderly default by Greece. A soft default. About 70% of the value of

:22:04.:22:08.

the loans they are writing off. It then remains, the world system is

:22:08.:22:14.

safe, and we get to that, what what happens to Greece. Many of the

:22:14.:22:17.

commentators, many of the bank notes I'm receiving through on e-

:22:17.:22:22.

mail tonight, is saying it is not very sustainable for the Greeks to

:22:22.:22:25.

do that. Bank notes you are receiving on e-

:22:25.:22:30.

mail are not really bank notes? Notes from bank all lists. If only

:22:30.:22:35.

we were receiving bank notes. Don bank analysts. If only we were

:22:35.:22:40.

receiving bank notes! Where does it leave Greek politics? It is the

:22:40.:22:43.

problem, the three parties who signed up for the draft. Pasok,

:22:43.:22:48.

this is an opinion poll yesterday, Pasok, former Government, it has

:22:48.:22:55.

now slumped to 8%. That is the Socialist Party. New Democracy,

:22:55.:23:00.

Conservative opposition, 31%, riding high. The religious party

:23:00.:23:04.

has 5%. They are the Government, add them up it is still only 44%.

:23:04.:23:07.

If we look at the parties, the other parties outside the

:23:07.:23:11.

Government, here they are. The three far left parties, the

:23:11.:23:16.

communists, the Trotskyists, the Greens and the Democratic Left,

:23:16.:23:22.

they are together, they have fought each other fis clo and don't like

:23:22.:23:26.

each other, that is what -- physically, and they don't like

:23:26.:23:29.

each other, that is where the politics are. Even at the most

:23:29.:23:35.

recent poll at 3% shows the far extreme far right party, Golden

:23:35.:23:41.

Dawn, its logo basically says it all, occasionally claiming that the

:23:41.:23:46.

stiff armed slut is Greek not Nazi in origin, that is why they use it.

:23:46.:23:51.

On 3%, that total getting into parliament when there is an

:23:51.:23:55.

election. We never had Greek opinion polls on this programme?

:23:55.:24:01.

they are exciting. We have been looking at the challenges this deal

:24:01.:24:11.
:24:11.:24:11.

needs to overcome. 200 years ago, after the fall of

:24:11.:24:17.

Napoleon. Europe's major power, Britain, prugsia and others, had

:24:17.:24:22.

the continent of Europe and keeping it out of war. It succeeded for a

:24:22.:24:26.

few decades. Now, as Greece threatens to economically sink

:24:26.:24:29.

Europe, perhaps the world needs another concert of Europe. Right

:24:29.:24:33.

now few of the actors in the Greek piece, are playing in tune or in

:24:33.:24:38.

time. Who are the key players in this

:24:38.:24:43.

fictional orchestra. The troika of the IMR, the EU and Central Bank

:24:43.:24:51.

are the wind instruments. They have stumped up 100 billion euros for

:24:51.:24:55.

Greece, and have earmarked another 150 billion for loans.

:24:55.:25:01.

The strings are the people who lent Greece money in the good old days

:25:01.:25:06.

before learning the word prudence. Plucking the strings themselves are

:25:06.:25:11.

the Greeks, threatening outside and messy default. It make the mood

:25:11.:25:16.

music not great. The worst case scenario is Greece would not be

:25:16.:25:20.

able to meet its next bond statement on the 25th of March.

:25:20.:25:26.

Uncontrolled bankruptcy of the country. That would have severe

:25:26.:25:30.

reprecussions for the economy, it may claps. The worst case scenario

:25:30.:25:36.

for Europe as a whole, in countries like Portugal, people might see the

:25:36.:25:38.

situation as a precedent and you might have the financial collapse

:25:38.:25:42.

of those countries. In order for Greece to survive as a

:25:42.:25:46.

functioning economy, and possibly even as a democracy, it needs to

:25:46.:25:52.

write off at least a quarter of its 360 billion euro debt mountain, and

:25:52.:25:56.

get a second, even larger bailout from European partners. Those

:25:56.:25:59.

partners have been urging the Greeks to set aside their political

:25:59.:26:09.
:26:09.:26:11.

differences and do that deal. Watch out for EU granddy, Jacques De

:26:11.:26:17.

Lorres on the left. We are in a historic position with the future

:26:17.:26:24.

of Greece and the euro. We want Greece in the euro. I wo urge the

:26:24.:26:28.

politic -- political leadership in the different parties in Greece for

:26:28.:26:35.

a better future for Greece. Even if they manage to get all

:26:35.:26:40.

players in tune, and Greece gets its second bailout, and a 100

:26:40.:26:44.

billion euro writedown, many will ask if that sets a dangerous

:26:44.:26:47.

precedent. If you allow one country to default within the euro zone,

:26:47.:26:53.

why not others, why not Italy, why not Ireland, why not Portugal.

:26:53.:26:57.

Portugal's cost of borrowing or yield has risen by 150% over the

:26:57.:27:04.

past year. As investors fear that Lisbon may follow Athens into a

:27:04.:27:07.

default spiral. You can understand why European leaders actual low

:27:07.:27:12.

want to draw line around Greece, and say this is quite specific to

:27:12.:27:17.

groz, and no other application -- Greece, and no other application

:27:17.:27:20.

would be justified for any other country. It is a fundamentally

:27:20.:27:27.

incorrect conclusion. I think it is absolutely the case that Portugal,

:27:27.:27:30.

possibly Ireland, would benefit and might demand, actually, some

:27:30.:27:33.

renegotiation of their debt, particularly once the Greeks have

:27:33.:27:37.

been seen to receive favourable treatment, it would be quite

:27:37.:27:40.

natural for a lot of Portuguese politicians or citizens to say,

:27:40.:27:46.

what about us? Do you think, that the immediate

:27:46.:27:53.

risk of messy refault by Greece has waened in recent weeks?

:27:53.:27:56.

activitys of the European Central Bank and washing the European

:27:56.:28:00.

banking system with copious amounts of liquidity, that hasn't ended,

:28:00.:28:04.

there will be another three-year liquidity provision at the end of

:28:04.:28:14.
:28:14.:28:18.

this month. That has certainly helped. Banks are in a better

:28:18.:28:20.

position than six months ago. Having been out of step with

:28:20.:28:26.

European colleagues for the past two years, politicians are about to

:28:26.:28:31.

put a pen to deal, that could consign their own populus to a

:28:31.:28:34.

decade of austerity, but keeping them within the eurozone.

:28:34.:28:39.

Negotiating that deal, like write be elaborate pieces of music can

:28:39.:28:43.

taken time and effort. What matters most when it comes to performing

:28:43.:28:46.

the piece, is how it goes down with audiences in the long-term.

:28:47.:28:51.

In a few wieks time it will be the 30th -- weeks time it will be the

:28:51.:28:55.

30th anniversary of what was Britain's last imperial war. The

:28:55.:29:01.

fight to retake the Falkland Islands from the military junta

:29:01.:29:09.

ruling Argentina, was put down as a dam close run thing and a feat of

:29:09.:29:13.

arms. The supposed offence lingers on, the latest outrage, according

:29:13.:29:18.

to the President, is that Britain is mill terrorising, as she puts it,

:29:18.:29:23.

this -- militarising, as she puts it, this penguin's paradise. It may

:29:23.:29:28.

be smaller than Yorkshire, 8,000 miles away, with fewer intab hants

:29:28.:29:33.

tan Chipping Norton, but the Falkland islanders claim to be

:29:33.:29:36.

British. It is almost 30 years since British servicemen gave their

:29:36.:29:42.

lives in a short, risky war, after invasion by Argentina. It re-

:29:42.:29:47.

established British sovereignity, and imposed a responsibility for

:29:47.:29:55.

their protection. The brand new billion pound destroyer Argentina

:29:55.:30:01.

fakes offence there, will be on station there. But the Malvenos,

:30:01.:30:05.

remain an easy drum to bang for any Argentine politician.

:30:05.:30:09.

The claim that these wind swept rocks are naturally Latin American,

:30:09.:30:14.

has never gone away. The Argentine President, Cristina Fernandez de

:30:14.:30:20.

Kirchner, now promises to take her claim to the U makes its. What the

:30:20.:30:24.

deColin -- United Nations, what the decolonisation committee will make

:30:24.:30:30.

of it is anybody's guests. What constitutes self-determination.

:30:30.:30:35.

With me is an Argentine journalist and an elected member of the

:30:35.:30:39.

Falkland Islands Government. Hasn't your Government anything better to

:30:39.:30:46.

worry about? I think Christina Fernandez has been drumming about

:30:46.:30:51.

the Maldenas force many years, she didn't pick -- for many years now,

:30:51.:30:57.

she didn't pick it out of the blue, but for the first time Great

:30:57.:31:00.

Britain responded. What was the response? Sending Prince William. I

:31:00.:31:05.

believe it is a political statement. What do you mean, he's an RAF

:31:05.:31:09.

pilot? Nobody discusses that. He could have trained anywhere else,

:31:09.:31:14.

the decision to send him there is a symbolic gesture. What really has

:31:14.:31:18.

got her going is the fact that Prince William is serving on a

:31:18.:31:22.

search and rescue station in the Falkland Islands? I don't think

:31:22.:31:27.

that got her going. She has been going for over 15 years. Where the

:31:27.:31:33.

-- where is the stuff about militarising the nation with the

:31:33.:31:39.

deployment? It is on the basis of the deployment of the destroyer.

:31:39.:31:44.

is replacing a friget there previously? What is the point of

:31:44.:31:49.

sending one of the most modern destroyers in the British fleet.

:31:49.:31:53.

happens to be the latest one and it is just replacing? What about the

:31:53.:31:57.

rumour of the nuclear submarine. Did you know there is a nuclear

:31:57.:32:01.

submarine down there? I'm asking, that is what has got Latin America

:32:02.:32:06.

going. How much longer will you people, 3,000 of you, smaller than

:32:06.:32:09.

Chipping Norton, how much longer are you going to expect the British

:32:09.:32:13.

Government to look after you? we expect are from the British

:32:13.:32:17.

Government is support for our right to self-determination, and also the

:32:17.:32:23.

provision of a deterrent force in the Falklands, which is only

:32:23.:32:28.

necessary because we were invaded in 1992 by Argentina. What

:32:28.:32:33.

proportion of the Falkland islands population want to go to Argentina.

:32:33.:32:37.

Don't you believe in self- determination? I do, I believe the

:32:37.:32:43.

people of the Falkland Islands, I would call them the Malvenas, they

:32:43.:32:48.

are British citizens and can't be party and judge in the same trial.

:32:48.:32:52.

You can't claim self-determination while already full British citizens.

:32:52.:32:59.

How far are the Falklands from Argentina? 298 miles. That is the

:32:59.:33:04.

same distance as Luxembourg from Britain, should we claim that? No

:33:04.:33:08.

but the Welsh wouldn't like Patagonia. But there is a larger

:33:08.:33:13.

British population residing in Argentina than the Falkland Islands,

:33:13.:33:17.

that doesn't mean Argentine territory becomes Great Britain.

:33:17.:33:20.

That is an interesting argument? are 8,000 miles away from the UK,

:33:20.:33:28.

that is correct, many of the overseas properties are a long way

:33:28.:33:34.

away, such as the Caribbean OTs. The argument talked about is a weak

:33:34.:33:38.

one, if you want to go back in history, go back to millions of

:33:39.:33:41.

years ago when we were part of South Africa. Does that mean South

:33:41.:33:49.

Africa has a claim on us, how ridiculous can this argument get.

:33:49.:33:55.

In 1833 when the islands were held by Argentina, Britain invaded.

:33:55.:34:00.

There was an outpost of Argentines who rebelled and murdered the

:34:00.:34:05.

British governor on the islands. Am I wrong? It wasn't that this was an

:34:05.:34:09.

occupied territory. It dates from 1833. You could just as easily go

:34:09.:34:15.

back to the prove century when the French were there? In the previous

:34:15.:34:19.

century Argentina was not an independent country. In 1833 it was.

:34:19.:34:23.

It has claimed sovereignity ever since. It has never given up its

:34:23.:34:29.

claim. Actually it is already in the United Nations decolonisation

:34:29.:34:32.

committee. It is not Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner is bringing

:34:32.:34:35.

it up, it is one of the 16 cases that the decolonisation committee

:34:35.:34:39.

has to consider. We could trade historical insults

:34:40.:34:43.

all evening. If we really want to go down that route, I could also

:34:43.:34:47.

say to you, I could talk about the "ethnic cleansing" that went on in

:34:47.:34:51.

Argentina, and should it belong to the Indian tribes that used to live

:34:51.:34:54.

there. There is something absurd, isn't there, there is a billion

:34:55.:34:57.

pound destroyer down there, protecting these islands, that most

:34:57.:35:03.

people in Britain couldn't find anywhere on a map. They could give

:35:03.:35:07.

every member, what is 3,000 into a billion. You guys could all be

:35:07.:35:11.

extreme low wealthy just on the proceeds of the cost of that single

:35:11.:35:16.

destroyer down there? I don't think that is a point, we have an elected

:35:16.:35:20.

Government, we have eight elected members, we make our own laws, set

:35:20.:35:25.

our own buckets, raise our own taxation, we are entirely self-

:35:25.:35:30.

sufficient and self-governing. Apart from two areas, only one,

:35:30.:35:34.

defence, is necessary because we were invaded by Argentina. If they

:35:34.:35:39.

were to drop the sovereignity claim we would have no need to talk about

:35:39.:35:42.

militarisation of the south Atlantic. In a moment we will have

:35:42.:35:47.

a look at the front pages and discuss the story dominating them.

:35:47.:35:53.

Fabio Capello's resignation as England manager. Oneest mo of the

:35:53.:35:57.

most enduring figures of modern art was in London today.

:35:57.:36:01.

For the last more than 30 years, Yayoi Kusama has lived voluntarily

:36:02.:36:06.

in a psychiatric institution. Her work is obsessive, and often

:36:06.:36:10.

overwhelming, since she's now well over 80, there is an awful lot of

:36:10.:36:14.

it too. We have been to see a sample, there is flashing lights

:36:14.:36:24.
:36:24.:36:30.

Extraordinary is a much abused word in the world of contemporary art, I

:36:30.:36:36.

think we might dust it off for Yayoi Kusama. An octogenarian in a

:36:36.:36:39.

wheelchair, who has some how conquered both the art scene and

:36:39.:36:47.

fashion world from her base in a Japanese psychiatric hospital.

:36:47.:36:52.

Newsnight met the doyenne of the polka dot, before her big new show

:36:52.:36:57.

at Tate Modern in London. What is your interest in polka dots, why do

:36:57.:37:05.

they pop up so often in your art? Please ask that to my hand, I have

:37:05.:37:09.

drawn lots of dots since I was a child, and covered my fashion and

:37:09.:37:14.

notebooks with dots. Dots are a symbol of the word "the Cosmos",

:37:14.:37:20.

the earth is a dot. The moon, the sun, the stars are all made up of

:37:20.:37:30.
:37:30.:37:31.

dots. You and me, we are dots. Her work is highly colourful,

:37:31.:37:36.

playful. But she herself is a sober and serious presence, especially

:37:36.:37:40.

for someone in a throbbing red outfit and matching wig. Show says

:37:40.:37:46.

she remains committed to her long standing campaigning for peace.

:37:46.:37:54.

What ideas are you exploring here? These are my own works about my

:37:54.:38:00.

life, the deep emotion of being born human and the barriers of

:38:00.:38:05.

movement over space as we know them. We can find out all sorts of things

:38:05.:38:15.
:38:15.:38:22.

I wonder how you feel about this big retrospective here at state

:38:22.:38:26.

modern? TRANSLATION: This is art that shines out from the bottom of

:38:26.:38:30.

my heart, human love, and I really wanted to display it in this

:38:30.:38:40.
:38:40.:38:44.

Kusama collaberated with musician Peter Gabriel, on this video.

:38:44.:38:54.
:38:54.:38:55.

What did he see in her work? really original point of view,

:38:55.:39:00.

passionate intensity, that was on the one hand, very child like, and

:39:00.:39:10.
:39:10.:39:11.

on another, very smart, adult and quite disturbing. We had a few days

:39:11.:39:16.

recreating some of her work, her boat full of Phalluses. Did one of

:39:16.:39:20.

your peters say, Peter, we have to spend more money, we will have to

:39:21.:39:26.

go down there and see how it is? is hard to locate the boat load of

:39:26.:39:32.

willies, so we definitely had to do it yourself!

:39:32.:39:38.

I'm glad you brought those up, the male member is to Kusama, what the

:39:38.:39:46.

tree trunk is to late Korea Hockney, dare we ask, what is that about?

:39:47.:39:50.

TRANSLATION: I was very afraid of fall sis, I haven't had sex. As a

:39:50.:39:57.

child I suffered a lot because my father led a very debauched

:39:57.:40:03.

lifestyle, and I came to hate sex. As a kind of art therapy, I created

:40:03.:40:13.
:40:13.:40:13.

lots of sex, filled a room with them, and I lost my fear.

:40:13.:40:17.

psychiatric hospital where Kusama lives, became a refuge of her own

:40:17.:40:21.

choosing, after a bout of illness a few years ago.

:40:21.:40:26.

TRANSLATION: For three or four days I didn't eat, I just painted and

:40:26.:40:30.

collapsed. Then I went to psychiatric hospital, the doctors

:40:30.:40:40.
:40:40.:40:40.

said that I had to be admitted. critics are sympathetic to Kusama's

:40:40.:40:44.

might, of course, that doesn't mean they all love her art? It is fun,

:40:44.:40:48.

like a fizzy drink, with all the spots, they are like bubbles, it

:40:48.:40:56.

has this endless fizz, it is every vestant, we are told it is driven

:40:56.:40:59.

by deep pain and psychological illness, that doesn't come through

:40:59.:41:04.

in the art, for me. I don't find it some kind of disturbing hypnotic

:41:05.:41:12.

ecstacy in this art. I find it a fizzy, pop cultural style. The show

:41:12.:41:17.

is fun, I have been looking forward to this place, the obliteration

:41:17.:41:27.
:41:27.:41:27.

room, they call it, it is not the bar, by the way. This or we willian

:41:27.:41:31.

sounding obliteration room is quiet at the moment. The idea is visitors

:41:31.:41:35.

can come and completely cover the surfaces with brightly covered

:41:35.:41:45.
:41:45.:41:50.

polka dots. Frpbgt I have to pack in the BBC coffee.

:41:50.:41:54.

Kusama also writes, makes films and sings. This is a lament for her

:41:55.:42:04.
:42:05.:42:06.

late parents. Draf vow! -- bravo, thank you very much, it is very

:42:06.:42:10.

nice to meet you. You would hardly have failed to notice that the

:42:10.:42:13.

England manager, Fabio Capello, resigned a few hours ago in protest

:42:13.:42:18.

at the FA's decision to strip John Terry of the England captaincy. It

:42:18.:42:21.

has left the national game in the usual state of complete chaos. With

:42:21.:42:28.

us now is the BBC sports editor, David Bond, and the journalist from

:42:28.:42:33.

The Times and the head of the footballers association.

:42:33.:42:40.

The papers are covered in the story, Capello's resignation and Harry

:42:40.:42:44.

Redknapp's acquittal on the tax charges. What is it all about?

:42:44.:42:48.

is embarrassing for an institution to have lost a manager and to have

:42:48.:42:52.

no captain. It is not catastrophic, we tend to exaggerate the

:42:52.:42:57.

importance of managers. We imbue them with almost mythical powers,

:42:57.:43:02.

and and we blame them when teams lose and usual guise them when the

:43:03.:43:08.

teams win. International managers don't decide the players' diets or

:43:08.:43:12.

decide the transfer market. This could be good. A lot of fuss about

:43:12.:43:15.

nothing? There is valid points there, but the manager is very much

:43:15.:43:21.

the focal point of this unit. When you have a team, this team needs a

:43:21.:43:25.

leader, that leader has to be strong and has to make sure he has

:43:25.:43:34.

the respect of all these under ings and he can drag them in the right

:43:34.:43:37.

direction. We were told Goran- Eriksson and Capello had the

:43:37.:43:41.

respect of the players, we were told every single manager for the

:43:41.:43:47.

last 30 years. The expectations are very high but it doesn't co-relate

:43:47.:43:51.

with the result. He got �6 million a year, he must have been doing

:43:51.:43:58.

something? In football that is no measure. We have seen plenty of top

:43:58.:44:02.

managers paid a lot of money and fail. You go to extremes, the

:44:02.:44:06.

highly-paid coach to the guru, then an English manager, that is the

:44:06.:44:11.

only way the players will truly respond. The danger is you keep

:44:11.:44:15.

swinging from those positions and you end up with this sort of

:44:15.:44:19.

shambles, no captain and manager. This bloke didn't learn English?

:44:19.:44:24.

That is definite low an issue, how he has communicated with the

:44:24.:44:29.

players. This has all come about, for once the FA has shown strong

:44:29.:44:33.

leadership on the John Terry issue. It has only come to past, because

:44:33.:44:38.

David Bernstein, the FA chairman, decided to make a stand, that John

:44:38.:44:42.

Terry shouldn't remain captain while still facing the racist

:44:42.:44:48.

allegations. Is race still an issue in society? Of course, it is still

:44:48.:44:55.

an issue in society. It is niave to think it is gone away. There are

:44:55.:45:01.

huge strides from the 1970s and 1980s where racist was endemic in

:45:01.:45:06.

societies. For us to believe it is gone away, not just recent

:45:06.:45:09.

incidents but thoughts shown in society shows it hasn't. We need to

:45:09.:45:13.

make sure we step on those campaigns to make sure the pockets

:45:13.:45:19.

become smaller and smaller: agree with the racial point?

:45:19.:45:25.

context is important, it was endemic in the 1970s, banana skins

:45:25.:45:29.

were thrown on the pitch. It was vital, and Sepp Blatter making

:45:29.:45:33.

comments about race in football. It was important for the FA to take a

:45:33.:45:38.

stand. I find it exordry that Capello, a bright and --

:45:38.:45:42.

extraordinary that Capello, a bright and cultured man, is going

:45:42.:45:46.

on this issue, someone not proved but with allegations against him.

:45:46.:45:51.

It is not about the allegations on John Terry, it is him taking the

:45:51.:45:56.

decisions. The end result is we haven't got a captain or manager?

:45:56.:45:59.

The mistake they made, was not consulting Capello, they didn't

:45:59.:46:09.

need to back down once he apressed his disagreement. They are as --

:46:09.:46:12.

They are as incompetent as it is said? Having promised to learn

:46:12.:46:17.

English when he got the job he hasn't, apparently he doesn't like

:46:17.:46:21.

using the telephone, this is the astonishing thing, a general

:46:21.:46:26.

manager was brought in on an astro nominal salary to be the conduit

:46:26.:46:32.

between Capello and the players and the board. He disappeared to a job

:46:32.:46:37.

in Roma, and Capello was not in the loop. Today we have learned he

:46:37.:46:42.

doesn't use the telephone, but Harry Redknapp doesn't use a

:46:42.:46:45.

computer or ever send an e-mail or text. Where do they find these

:46:45.:46:49.

people? It is an indictment isn't it. The next manager, will, for a

:46:50.:46:57.

period, will be a panacea, not for the national team but the national

:46:57.:47:02.

game. It is about the next major competition and losing on penalties

:47:02.:47:07.

and another disaster. What an extraordinary day, the possibility

:47:07.:47:10.

of two things happening, Harry Redknapp cleared on the footsteps

:47:10.:47:15.

of the Crown Court, and within a few hours Fabio Capello resigns.

:47:15.:47:21.

I'm sure many will have seen the stuff coming out. Is it the red

:47:21.:47:25.

card for the management? Absolutely, in the short-term they will need

:47:25.:47:32.

someone to take over. I tweeted about the two issues taking place.

:47:32.:47:38.

What damage is the NHS reform bill doing to the government? Plus all the details on the Greek debt deal, the row over the Falklands, Fabio Capello's resignation as England manager and Japanese artist Yayoi Kusama. With Jeremy Paxman.


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