08/02/2012 Newsnight


08/02/2012

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Another day, another slap around the chops for the legislation the

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Government says is vital to make the NHS work properly. The Prime

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Minister, and Health Secretary, say they won't wash their hands of the

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bill to reform healthcare. But how much damage is it doing?

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Two volumes, hundreds of amendments, as the complexity of this bill has

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grown, well the politics have got actually quite simple. It boils

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down to this, who does the public trust to run the health service.

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We have got a Health Minister, and GPs on opposite sides of the fence.

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Would you believe a promise made by these Greek politicians, because if

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they can't be trusted, the euro is in big, big trouble.

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Paul Mason is here. Greece just signed up for years of

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austerity to avoid default. But is it actually an economic suicide

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note. Is sending this perfectly run of

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the mill helicopter pilot to the south Atlantic part of mill

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terrorising the Falklands. The Argentines claim it is. Who is the

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bigger imperialist, Britain or Argentina.

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No captain, now no manager, Fabio Capello resigns as England boss,

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leaving the country's national game in crisis, again.

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The work speaks for itself, but in case you are in any doubt, the

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world famous, Yayoi Kusama, puts us right on what she's trying to do

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with her art. (she sings)

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According to the Prime Minister, there are huge numbers of people in

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this country, who support his plans to reform the health service.

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Perhaps they are all suffering from Lauren giet tis. One professional

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body after another has come out against them, over 100 Government

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amendments have lopped off bits and pieces. The Conservatives claim its

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vital organs are intact, but there are louder than louder than usual

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moans from Downing Street, about how the Health Secretary has made a

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botch job of the whole thing. David Grossman, clamped on the blue light

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and sped down to Westminster. You can't say David Cameron hasn't

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put in the hours trying to sell his health reforms.

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He has met hundreds of patients and health professionals and scrubbed

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up on countless occasions. But now, some are suggesting he would be

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better off washing his hands of the whole enterprise. Today, another

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body of health professionals turned against the reforms.

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We want the Government to drop the bill, because we think it will lead

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to increased inequalities in health, we think it will lead to increased

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bureaucracy, we think services will become less integrated, rather than

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working together like they really should be, and we think it could

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lead to waste of public money. Prime Minister's Questions, Labour

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tried to increase the pressure on Government. He knows in his heart

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of hearts, this is a complete disaster. That is why his aides are

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saying the Health Secretary should be taken out and shot, because they

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know it is a disaster. The reality about the bill is this, the doctors

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know it is bad for the NHS, the nurses know it is bad for the NHS,

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and patients know it is bad for the NHS, every day he fights for this

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bill, every day trust in him on the NHS ebbs away, and every day it

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books clearer, the -- becomes clearer, the health service is not

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safe in his hands. I have to tell him the career prospects for our

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right honourable friend is better than his. The Conservative Party

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have heard the Prime Minister deliver for ematic support for the

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bill than that, but Mr Cameron couldn't have been clearer. We are

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cutting bureaucracy in the NHS, we are taking out �4.5 billion

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bureaucracy, to be ploughed into patient care. The Health Secretary,

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Andrew Lansley, has drawn a fair bit of criticism for the way he has

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handled this bill. According to newspapers, hostile briefings,

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including that comment, supposedly from a Number Ten insider, that he

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should, "be taken out and shot". Andrew Lansley started formulating

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his master plan for NHS reform, six years before he became Health

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Secretary. Well before anyone was even talking about austerity. But

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the act is, he's having to enact it at a time when there is pressure on

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Government spending. And this, according to some

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strategists, has led to a fatal confusion in the public's mind as

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to the Government's motives. Are they doing it because they want a

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better health service, or are they doing this because they want to

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save money? We have to separate out the reform itself, the reform bill,

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from what the NHS has been doing, and has been planning to do for

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some years, when it knew the money would flatten out in real term. It

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knew there would be a gap, as it were, between the money, and what

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they wanted the NHS it do, in terms of quality of care and meeting high

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depemands. That plan has been form -- demands. That plan has been

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formulated some time ago and the NHS is pursuing it. The tactics

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used, cut management costs, make savings there, another part of the

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plan to reduce the prices that hospitals can charge for their

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goods and services in real terms. That puts a lot of pressure on

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hospitals to then look at their costs, and can they produce hips

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more cheaply, and so on. That was going on any way. In a sense,

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regardless of the bill, regardless of the potential reforms, that

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would have to go on. David Cameron worked very hard in

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opposition to try to neutral yois voter suspicion about his party's

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at -- neutralise voter suspicion about his party's motives.

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believe the NHS is one of the greatest achievements of the 20th

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century. But pollsters say this work is now

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being undone. Traditionally Labour have always been the party of the

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NHS, in the same way for law and order is the safe ground for the

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Conservatives. But at the time of the last election that gap between

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the two parties had closed significantly. However, recent

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polling we have done seems to suggest that gap is actually

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widening again, with the Tories not being seen as the party that has

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the best policies. Today, in the Lords, the Government was defeated

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on its health proposals once again. Some experts believe, however, that

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some of this opposition is based on a mistaken view of what the bill is

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trying to do. It is not about introducing

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competition, we have already had competition in the NHS of a sort,

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it has been regulated. We have already had patient choice of a

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sort, regulateed and constrained in certain ways. The bill is pushing

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that forward. The opposition, and many of them see this as a brand

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new thing introducing competition, I don't think it is. In part, some

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of these amendments, and some of the opposition, are partly based on

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a false idea about what is going on with the reform bill, and what is

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going on before within the NHS. We're a senior orthopaedic. Can you

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come and talk to me. Then as the Prime Minister has found out before,

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the relationship between health professionals and politicians has

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never been entirely easy. We will come back. I'm not having it, out.

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Now a short while ago I spoke to the Health Minister, Simon Burns.

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How come you have managed to make such a mess of this bill? I don't

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think we have made a mess of it. How many amendments have you had?

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We have had 1,000 amendments in the House of Commons, which 750 were

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technical amendments to change the name to commissioning groups for

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GPs. If you are talking about how many have we accepted to improve

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and strengthen the bill in the Commons, it would probably be about

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100. The bill was wrong on 100 points, before you got these

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amendments? It was pblt wrong, we went out to consult the NHS furg

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the future for yum, they came -- during future for yum, they came

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back with suggestions to strengthen it. We have the BMA, The Royal

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College of Nurses, The Royal College of Midwives, the Chartered

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Society of Physiotherapies, the main unions, The Royal College of

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Child health, The Royal College of Pathologists, The Royal College of

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Physicians, The Royal College of Psychiatrists, The Royal College of

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Occupational therapists and the British die at the timeic

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association, all thinking the bill is wrong. If you look at the number

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of organisations you have read out, their responses to the White Paper,

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there were elements of the bill that they approved and supported.

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The BMA itself, which has come out against it. They said their special

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emergency meeting last summer, they voted for GP commissioning. Because

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of the size of the subject and range of subjects being dealt with,

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there are things they like and don't like. On the other side of

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that coin, there are a number of organisations, like The Royal

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College of Gynaecologists, the Family Doctors Association, the

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National Association of Primary Care. They do support it. What is

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most important is the people at the forefront of the health service,

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delivering the service. Like GPs, who are beginning to commission,

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and who are enthusiastic. I find as I go around and talk to them, they

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are already working with the PCTs to begin commissioning, they are

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enthusiastic that they are empowered to look after their

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patients. Frankly, the most important thing about this

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legislation, is it is concerned with improving the quality of care

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for patients, and the results of their treatment. So you say. But

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The Royal College of Nurse, midwives, aniseists, opt molgists,

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paediatrics, and the rest of it, are they not some how frontline.

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Are they not slightly more than a politician? A number of those

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organisations, like The Royal College of GPs, like the BMJ today,

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they have formed their opinions on surveys they have carried out,

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which are self-selecting, they are of a very small minority of their

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members. You can vote as often as you like in these surveys, to give

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distorted views, then they have reached a conclusion, which is not

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representative. And you honestly believe that the �20 billion, which

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the health service has to save, can be more easily saved by putting the

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organisation into a state of semi- paralysis, through this bill?

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evidence of the NHS at the moment does not suggest anything like

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semi-paralysis. It is rising to the challenges, as it has to, because

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of the impositions put on it through an increasing ageing

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population, an increasing drugs bill, which increased by �600

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million last year alone. It cannot stay still. Even Andy Burnham

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accepts that it needs to be reformed. He just will not come up

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with any concrete and relevant ideas of how to modernise it.

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is Number Ten briefing that your a second should be taken out and

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shot? Come on, you know they are not. Number Ten...They Are. Number

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Ten said yesterday in response to the story by Rachel Sylvester, that

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the Prime Minister fully supported Andrew Lansley. He has to say that?

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And he fully supports the bill. He's a hopeless communicator?

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is your opinion. No, that is the accusation from Number Ten? That is

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an unnamed source in an article. That is how they do it, you know

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that? I work with Andrew Lansley every day, I see the work he does,

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I see the way he has a total grasp of the workings and intricacies of

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the NHS. He has put together a bill that is meeting the challenges of

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the future of the NHS. We have Liz Kendall, the Labour health

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spokesperson here, as is Clare Gerada, also here from The Royal

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College of Practitioners, who opposes the plans.

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:12:32.:12:32.

Liz Kendall, you are not going to say there is no need for change?

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Absolutely not. In the NHS there is a big challenge to do more within

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constrained budget, while at the same time we face an ageing

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population. That will be big challenges. You also agree it has

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to save 20 billion? Absolute. billion? Absolutely. It is wrong to

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push a massive organisation through a change. You have just said it

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needs to change? It does, how it needs to change is to deliver more

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services in the community and at home. To better link up NHS

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services with social care. That koind of integration is going to be

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made far -- kind of integration is going to be made far harder by this

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bill. We oppose the bill, not because we are against reform, but

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because it won't help us make the reforms we need. Is Wales where the

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NHS is run by Labour, effectively, is that a model? In Wales they do

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things in their way. I think the Prime Minister made...Do You think

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they do it better than under the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats

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here? I think they do it in a different way. They certainly do.

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As you know, waiting lists are longer there, aren't they? There

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was a big dispute about what the Prime Minister said in PMQs today,

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and many of the figures that he gave on that were inaccurate.

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is no argument about the fact that Wales, where Labour runs the NHS,

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has worse outcomes in some respects, notably waiting lists. I want to

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focus on England. I want to talk about Wales, where is the model, is

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there a model? There is a model, that is about integrating health

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and social care, and shifting the focus towards prevention. You may

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have seen a select committee report out today, which said that actual

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low the best places where we are bringing together health and social

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care, are in care trusts. Those care trusts are going to be swept

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away by the bill. We are against the bill, not because we are

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against reform, but because we don't think the bill will help us

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get to the place we need to with the NHS. Let's broaden it out with

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two GPs. What do you think is wrong with the bill? There is so much,

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there is such a complex bill. as face it, doctors have opposed

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change time and time again in the NHS? I don't think we have, doctors

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or GPs, I will speak for GPs, we have had about ten reorganisations

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thrown at us, certainly over my clinical lifetime. You ask what's

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wrong with this bill, this bill will not achof the things that we

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need it to a-- achieve the things we want it to, with respect to the

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ageing population and rising costs. It will create more barriers

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between GPs being able to work with hospital specialists, it will drive

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up costs and bureaucracy. Why do you believe it is a good thing?

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need to take politics out of this, for a second. We have tried over

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years to reform the NHS and under all administration. In most cases

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we haven't done what we hoped to achieve. That is the past, tell us

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why you believe in this set of reforms? Because the only way to

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manage the process is to get the centre of the NHS, the bureaucracy,

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the big organisation, that is the centre of the NHS, to devolve power

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to the locality. I want to work in a place where I deal with a patient,

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a patient who is in front of me, a population in front of me and a

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population I understand. I believe I can do that better than somebody

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very far away from that patient. The argument is it involves doctors

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taking responsibility for decisions? Absolutely, and actually

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accepting they live within a system. Somebody has to take responsibility.

:16:05.:16:09.

There is nothing wrong with that, we absolutely agree with that.

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are you opposing it? It is like saying you have an airline pilot,

:16:14.:16:20.

you fly your plane, therefore you should build it. You just want the

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taxpayer to carry on writing blank cheques? Absolutely not, GPs have

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been delivering effective care for years, and we need to improve the

:16:29.:16:32.

situation. This bill won't achieve that, it will create more

:16:32.:16:36.

bureaucracy, more cost, it won't achieve what we want to do, which

:16:36.:16:39.

is better joint working. Somebody has to start taking responsibility

:16:39.:16:43.

for decisions within the NHS, don't they. What is wrong with doctors

:16:43.:16:49.

facing up to that? Joos There is nothing, I trained as a carer. Most

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GPs go into general practice because they want to care for their

:16:51.:16:55.

patients. Of course we want to do it. What we are losing sight of in

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all of this, is what lights the light for GPs, what will bring

:16:59.:17:02.

about change is reform of the provision. Is improving the way we

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deliver care to patients, and improving the relationships we have

:17:06.:17:11.

with our hospital colleagues. are shaking your head now.

:17:11.:17:20.

shaking my head and agree with it. We need to manage variation within

:17:20.:17:23.

the service. We must take responsibility for the service we

:17:23.:17:26.

provide. The only way to do that is by working in partnership with

:17:27.:17:30.

managers. This isn't about doctors or managers, it is about both.

:17:30.:17:34.

the accusation about bureaucracy, is a valid one, isn't it, if you

:17:34.:17:38.

lock at this legislation, it appears to have, somewhere, buried

:17:38.:17:41.

-- look at this legislation, it appears to have it, somewhere,

:17:42.:17:46.

buried within it, eight supervisory organisations, it is not one, it is

:17:46.:17:50.

not a devolution? The worry people like me have is around the

:17:50.:17:54.

implementation of the reforms. The worry people like me have is around

:17:54.:17:56.

the power the national commissioning board will have.

:17:56.:18:00.

Unless we actually make health local, we need a local health

:18:00.:18:03.

service, as well as a National Health Service, I think that is

:18:03.:18:08.

something we all agree upon. gave a list of the different royal

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colleges who now oppose the bill. Let me give the list of new levels

:18:12.:18:17.

of bureaucracy. The national commissioning board, clinical

:18:17.:18:23.

commissioning booths, clinical Senates, commissioning support

:18:23.:18:27.

groups, four regional clusters, I have no idea what all these

:18:27.:18:31.

different organisations are doing. This bill is creating more waste,

:18:31.:18:35.

more bureaucracy, and huge chaos at a time when the NHS faces the

:18:35.:18:40.

biggest financial and clinical challenge of its life. How nasty is

:18:40.:18:43.

this fight getting? We all want to make things better for patients.

:18:43.:18:47.

What we need to do, what the college is saying, let's make it

:18:47.:18:52.

safe, let's stop this bill, let's make it safe. There is a way of

:18:52.:18:57.

making it safe. Merge PCTs, they are already safe put GPs on the

:18:57.:19:02.

majority of the board of those. Then let's have a sensible debate

:19:02.:19:06.

on what the NHS should provide and how we deal with big health and

:19:06.:19:11.

social care issues facing us. That is what we should do. Hurry up and

:19:11.:19:14.

wait again? Which will take years to unpick, the only people to

:19:14.:19:19.

benefit will be the lawyers. I believe we are in a some what

:19:19.:19:23.

different place. Only today we had a really interesting and long, and

:19:23.:19:29.

productive debate around how we are going to manage the provider issues,

:19:29.:19:33.

the issues around co-operation and competition. All the organisations

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are represented there. In the workings we have between us, we

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agree about most things. If we take the politics out of this, we all

:19:42.:19:46.

want clinical commissioning to work, we want the local decision making.

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We should concentrate on the best way to achieve those. Don't you

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think it would be better if your party adopted a slightly mother

:19:56.:20:00.

constructive stance, Ed Milliband saying there is three months to

:20:00.:20:05.

save the NHS is a stupid comment? Andy Burnham has said. Why he's

:20:05.:20:08.

talking about three months to save the NHS? If the Government drops

:20:08.:20:12.

the bill, we will work with them and the professions to make

:20:12.:20:16.

clinical commissioning work. To give clinicians the control that

:20:16.:20:19.

they want, to drive changes in services, not structures. We have

:20:19.:20:23.

been through lots of structural reorganisation in the NHS, it

:20:23.:20:26.

hasn't delivered the results we need for future. That is the change

:20:26.:20:31.

we need. We will leave it there, we will be revisiting this next week

:20:31.:20:35.

and afterwards. Oh dear! It is good, isn't it, more discussion.

:20:35.:20:42.

Thank you all. The euro is saved, maybe or maybe not, Hallelujah.

:20:42.:20:46.

Nothing concentrates the mind like the prospect of being hanged in the

:20:46.:20:50.

morning, and faced with not getting the loan they need to stay inside

:20:50.:20:55.

the euro, politicians in Athens have apparently signed up to a deal

:20:55.:20:59.

on austerity measures. The 17 lucky countries of the eurozone get

:20:59.:21:03.

together tomorrow to decide if they can trust the geeks to stick to the

:21:03.:21:06.

deal they say they have -- Greeks to stick to the deal they have

:21:06.:21:11.

agreed. The three main parties in Greece

:21:11.:21:18.

have signed up to a draft deal, we know the basics of it. Bloomberg

:21:18.:21:21.

reported them a few hours ago. The Greeks are yet again being asked to

:21:21.:21:27.

sign up to a big austerity package. One they hadn't expected, a 22% cut

:21:27.:21:32.

in the minimum wage. In the next six months a huge number of knock-

:21:32.:21:36.

down sales of state-owned assets, big cuts in public spending and

:21:36.:21:41.

jobs. We think that is the first bit. The next bit is they get to

:21:41.:21:45.

write off about 100 billion euros worth of debt. That is the bit to

:21:45.:21:48.

come. After that we have to find out whether or not that explodes

:21:48.:21:52.

into the debt market. We think it probably won't because of the sheer

:21:52.:21:55.

volume of money the European Central Bank has pumped into the

:21:55.:22:00.

system. But, you know, I think we are a third of the way to an

:22:00.:22:04.

orderly default by Greece. A soft default. About 70% of the value of

:22:04.:22:08.

the loans they are writing off. It then remains, the world system is

:22:08.:22:14.

safe, and we get to that, what what happens to Greece. Many of the

:22:14.:22:17.

commentators, many of the bank notes I'm receiving through on e-

:22:17.:22:22.

mail tonight, is saying it is not very sustainable for the Greeks to

:22:22.:22:25.

do that. Bank notes you are receiving on e-

:22:25.:22:30.

mail are not really bank notes? Notes from bank all lists. If only

:22:30.:22:35.

we were receiving bank notes. Don bank analysts. If only we were

:22:35.:22:40.

receiving bank notes! Where does it leave Greek politics? It is the

:22:40.:22:43.

problem, the three parties who signed up for the draft. Pasok,

:22:43.:22:48.

this is an opinion poll yesterday, Pasok, former Government, it has

:22:48.:22:55.

now slumped to 8%. That is the Socialist Party. New Democracy,

:22:55.:23:00.

Conservative opposition, 31%, riding high. The religious party

:23:00.:23:04.

has 5%. They are the Government, add them up it is still only 44%.

:23:04.:23:07.

If we look at the parties, the other parties outside the

:23:07.:23:11.

Government, here they are. The three far left parties, the

:23:11.:23:16.

communists, the Trotskyists, the Greens and the Democratic Left,

:23:16.:23:22.

they are together, they have fought each other fis clo and don't like

:23:22.:23:26.

each other, that is what -- physically, and they don't like

:23:26.:23:29.

each other, that is where the politics are. Even at the most

:23:29.:23:35.

recent poll at 3% shows the far extreme far right party, Golden

:23:35.:23:41.

Dawn, its logo basically says it all, occasionally claiming that the

:23:41.:23:46.

stiff armed slut is Greek not Nazi in origin, that is why they use it.

:23:46.:23:51.

On 3%, that total getting into parliament when there is an

:23:51.:23:55.

election. We never had Greek opinion polls on this programme?

:23:55.:24:01.

they are exciting. We have been looking at the challenges this deal

:24:01.:24:11.
:24:11.:24:11.

needs to overcome. 200 years ago, after the fall of

:24:11.:24:17.

Napoleon. Europe's major power, Britain, prugsia and others, had

:24:17.:24:22.

the continent of Europe and keeping it out of war. It succeeded for a

:24:22.:24:26.

few decades. Now, as Greece threatens to economically sink

:24:26.:24:29.

Europe, perhaps the world needs another concert of Europe. Right

:24:29.:24:33.

now few of the actors in the Greek piece, are playing in tune or in

:24:33.:24:38.

time. Who are the key players in this

:24:38.:24:43.

fictional orchestra. The troika of the IMR, the EU and Central Bank

:24:43.:24:51.

are the wind instruments. They have stumped up 100 billion euros for

:24:51.:24:55.

Greece, and have earmarked another 150 billion for loans.

:24:55.:25:01.

The strings are the people who lent Greece money in the good old days

:25:01.:25:06.

before learning the word prudence. Plucking the strings themselves are

:25:06.:25:11.

the Greeks, threatening outside and messy default. It make the mood

:25:11.:25:16.

music not great. The worst case scenario is Greece would not be

:25:16.:25:20.

able to meet its next bond statement on the 25th of March.

:25:20.:25:26.

Uncontrolled bankruptcy of the country. That would have severe

:25:26.:25:30.

reprecussions for the economy, it may claps. The worst case scenario

:25:30.:25:36.

for Europe as a whole, in countries like Portugal, people might see the

:25:36.:25:38.

situation as a precedent and you might have the financial collapse

:25:38.:25:42.

of those countries. In order for Greece to survive as a

:25:42.:25:46.

functioning economy, and possibly even as a democracy, it needs to

:25:46.:25:52.

write off at least a quarter of its 360 billion euro debt mountain, and

:25:52.:25:56.

get a second, even larger bailout from European partners. Those

:25:56.:25:59.

partners have been urging the Greeks to set aside their political

:25:59.:26:09.
:26:09.:26:11.

differences and do that deal. Watch out for EU granddy, Jacques De

:26:11.:26:17.

Lorres on the left. We are in a historic position with the future

:26:17.:26:24.

of Greece and the euro. We want Greece in the euro. I wo urge the

:26:24.:26:28.

politic -- political leadership in the different parties in Greece for

:26:28.:26:35.

a better future for Greece. Even if they manage to get all

:26:35.:26:40.

players in tune, and Greece gets its second bailout, and a 100

:26:40.:26:44.

billion euro writedown, many will ask if that sets a dangerous

:26:44.:26:47.

precedent. If you allow one country to default within the euro zone,

:26:47.:26:53.

why not others, why not Italy, why not Ireland, why not Portugal.

:26:53.:26:57.

Portugal's cost of borrowing or yield has risen by 150% over the

:26:57.:27:04.

past year. As investors fear that Lisbon may follow Athens into a

:27:04.:27:07.

default spiral. You can understand why European leaders actual low

:27:07.:27:12.

want to draw line around Greece, and say this is quite specific to

:27:12.:27:17.

groz, and no other application -- Greece, and no other application

:27:17.:27:20.

would be justified for any other country. It is a fundamentally

:27:20.:27:27.

incorrect conclusion. I think it is absolutely the case that Portugal,

:27:27.:27:30.

possibly Ireland, would benefit and might demand, actually, some

:27:30.:27:33.

renegotiation of their debt, particularly once the Greeks have

:27:33.:27:37.

been seen to receive favourable treatment, it would be quite

:27:37.:27:40.

natural for a lot of Portuguese politicians or citizens to say,

:27:40.:27:46.

what about us? Do you think, that the immediate

:27:46.:27:53.

risk of messy refault by Greece has waened in recent weeks?

:27:53.:27:56.

activitys of the European Central Bank and washing the European

:27:56.:28:00.

banking system with copious amounts of liquidity, that hasn't ended,

:28:00.:28:04.

there will be another three-year liquidity provision at the end of

:28:04.:28:14.
:28:14.:28:18.

this month. That has certainly helped. Banks are in a better

:28:18.:28:20.

position than six months ago. Having been out of step with

:28:20.:28:26.

European colleagues for the past two years, politicians are about to

:28:26.:28:31.

put a pen to deal, that could consign their own populus to a

:28:31.:28:34.

decade of austerity, but keeping them within the eurozone.

:28:34.:28:39.

Negotiating that deal, like write be elaborate pieces of music can

:28:39.:28:43.

taken time and effort. What matters most when it comes to performing

:28:43.:28:46.

the piece, is how it goes down with audiences in the long-term.

:28:47.:28:51.

In a few wieks time it will be the 30th -- weeks time it will be the

:28:51.:28:55.

30th anniversary of what was Britain's last imperial war. The

:28:55.:29:01.

fight to retake the Falkland Islands from the military junta

:29:01.:29:09.

ruling Argentina, was put down as a dam close run thing and a feat of

:29:09.:29:13.

arms. The supposed offence lingers on, the latest outrage, according

:29:13.:29:18.

to the President, is that Britain is mill terrorising, as she puts it,

:29:18.:29:23.

this -- militarising, as she puts it, this penguin's paradise. It may

:29:23.:29:28.

be smaller than Yorkshire, 8,000 miles away, with fewer intab hants

:29:28.:29:33.

tan Chipping Norton, but the Falkland islanders claim to be

:29:33.:29:36.

British. It is almost 30 years since British servicemen gave their

:29:36.:29:42.

lives in a short, risky war, after invasion by Argentina. It re-

:29:42.:29:47.

established British sovereignity, and imposed a responsibility for

:29:47.:29:55.

their protection. The brand new billion pound destroyer Argentina

:29:55.:30:01.

fakes offence there, will be on station there. But the Malvenos,

:30:01.:30:05.

remain an easy drum to bang for any Argentine politician.

:30:05.:30:09.

The claim that these wind swept rocks are naturally Latin American,

:30:09.:30:14.

has never gone away. The Argentine President, Cristina Fernandez de

:30:14.:30:20.

Kirchner, now promises to take her claim to the U makes its. What the

:30:20.:30:24.

deColin -- United Nations, what the decolonisation committee will make

:30:24.:30:30.

of it is anybody's guests. What constitutes self-determination.

:30:30.:30:35.

With me is an Argentine journalist and an elected member of the

:30:35.:30:39.

Falkland Islands Government. Hasn't your Government anything better to

:30:39.:30:46.

worry about? I think Christina Fernandez has been drumming about

:30:46.:30:51.

the Maldenas force many years, she didn't pick -- for many years now,

:30:51.:30:57.

she didn't pick it out of the blue, but for the first time Great

:30:57.:31:00.

Britain responded. What was the response? Sending Prince William. I

:31:00.:31:05.

believe it is a political statement. What do you mean, he's an RAF

:31:05.:31:09.

pilot? Nobody discusses that. He could have trained anywhere else,

:31:09.:31:14.

the decision to send him there is a symbolic gesture. What really has

:31:14.:31:18.

got her going is the fact that Prince William is serving on a

:31:18.:31:22.

search and rescue station in the Falkland Islands? I don't think

:31:22.:31:27.

that got her going. She has been going for over 15 years. Where the

:31:27.:31:33.

-- where is the stuff about militarising the nation with the

:31:33.:31:39.

deployment? It is on the basis of the deployment of the destroyer.

:31:39.:31:44.

is replacing a friget there previously? What is the point of

:31:44.:31:49.

sending one of the most modern destroyers in the British fleet.

:31:49.:31:53.

happens to be the latest one and it is just replacing? What about the

:31:53.:31:57.

rumour of the nuclear submarine. Did you know there is a nuclear

:31:57.:32:01.

submarine down there? I'm asking, that is what has got Latin America

:32:02.:32:06.

going. How much longer will you people, 3,000 of you, smaller than

:32:06.:32:09.

Chipping Norton, how much longer are you going to expect the British

:32:09.:32:13.

Government to look after you? we expect are from the British

:32:13.:32:17.

Government is support for our right to self-determination, and also the

:32:17.:32:23.

provision of a deterrent force in the Falklands, which is only

:32:23.:32:28.

necessary because we were invaded in 1992 by Argentina. What

:32:28.:32:33.

proportion of the Falkland islands population want to go to Argentina.

:32:33.:32:37.

Don't you believe in self- determination? I do, I believe the

:32:37.:32:43.

people of the Falkland Islands, I would call them the Malvenas, they

:32:43.:32:48.

are British citizens and can't be party and judge in the same trial.

:32:48.:32:52.

You can't claim self-determination while already full British citizens.

:32:52.:32:59.

How far are the Falklands from Argentina? 298 miles. That is the

:32:59.:33:04.

same distance as Luxembourg from Britain, should we claim that? No

:33:04.:33:08.

but the Welsh wouldn't like Patagonia. But there is a larger

:33:08.:33:13.

British population residing in Argentina than the Falkland Islands,

:33:13.:33:17.

that doesn't mean Argentine territory becomes Great Britain.

:33:17.:33:20.

That is an interesting argument? are 8,000 miles away from the UK,

:33:20.:33:28.

that is correct, many of the overseas properties are a long way

:33:28.:33:34.

away, such as the Caribbean OTs. The argument talked about is a weak

:33:34.:33:38.

one, if you want to go back in history, go back to millions of

:33:39.:33:41.

years ago when we were part of South Africa. Does that mean South

:33:41.:33:49.

Africa has a claim on us, how ridiculous can this argument get.

:33:49.:33:55.

In 1833 when the islands were held by Argentina, Britain invaded.

:33:55.:34:00.

There was an outpost of Argentines who rebelled and murdered the

:34:00.:34:05.

British governor on the islands. Am I wrong? It wasn't that this was an

:34:05.:34:09.

occupied territory. It dates from 1833. You could just as easily go

:34:09.:34:15.

back to the prove century when the French were there? In the previous

:34:15.:34:19.

century Argentina was not an independent country. In 1833 it was.

:34:19.:34:23.

It has claimed sovereignity ever since. It has never given up its

:34:23.:34:29.

claim. Actually it is already in the United Nations decolonisation

:34:29.:34:32.

committee. It is not Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner is bringing

:34:32.:34:35.

it up, it is one of the 16 cases that the decolonisation committee

:34:35.:34:39.

has to consider. We could trade historical insults

:34:40.:34:43.

all evening. If we really want to go down that route, I could also

:34:43.:34:47.

say to you, I could talk about the "ethnic cleansing" that went on in

:34:47.:34:51.

Argentina, and should it belong to the Indian tribes that used to live

:34:51.:34:54.

there. There is something absurd, isn't there, there is a billion

:34:55.:34:57.

pound destroyer down there, protecting these islands, that most

:34:57.:35:03.

people in Britain couldn't find anywhere on a map. They could give

:35:03.:35:07.

every member, what is 3,000 into a billion. You guys could all be

:35:07.:35:11.

extreme low wealthy just on the proceeds of the cost of that single

:35:11.:35:16.

destroyer down there? I don't think that is a point, we have an elected

:35:16.:35:20.

Government, we have eight elected members, we make our own laws, set

:35:20.:35:25.

our own buckets, raise our own taxation, we are entirely self-

:35:25.:35:30.

sufficient and self-governing. Apart from two areas, only one,

:35:30.:35:34.

defence, is necessary because we were invaded by Argentina. If they

:35:34.:35:39.

were to drop the sovereignity claim we would have no need to talk about

:35:39.:35:42.

militarisation of the south Atlantic. In a moment we will have

:35:42.:35:47.

a look at the front pages and discuss the story dominating them.

:35:47.:35:53.

Fabio Capello's resignation as England manager. Oneest mo of the

:35:53.:35:57.

most enduring figures of modern art was in London today.

:35:57.:36:01.

For the last more than 30 years, Yayoi Kusama has lived voluntarily

:36:02.:36:06.

in a psychiatric institution. Her work is obsessive, and often

:36:06.:36:10.

overwhelming, since she's now well over 80, there is an awful lot of

:36:10.:36:14.

it too. We have been to see a sample, there is flashing lights

:36:14.:36:24.
:36:24.:36:30.

Extraordinary is a much abused word in the world of contemporary art, I

:36:30.:36:36.

think we might dust it off for Yayoi Kusama. An octogenarian in a

:36:36.:36:39.

wheelchair, who has some how conquered both the art scene and

:36:39.:36:47.

fashion world from her base in a Japanese psychiatric hospital.

:36:47.:36:52.

Newsnight met the doyenne of the polka dot, before her big new show

:36:52.:36:57.

at Tate Modern in London. What is your interest in polka dots, why do

:36:57.:37:05.

they pop up so often in your art? Please ask that to my hand, I have

:37:05.:37:09.

drawn lots of dots since I was a child, and covered my fashion and

:37:09.:37:14.

notebooks with dots. Dots are a symbol of the word "the Cosmos",

:37:14.:37:20.

the earth is a dot. The moon, the sun, the stars are all made up of

:37:20.:37:30.
:37:30.:37:31.

dots. You and me, we are dots. Her work is highly colourful,

:37:31.:37:36.

playful. But she herself is a sober and serious presence, especially

:37:36.:37:40.

for someone in a throbbing red outfit and matching wig. Show says

:37:40.:37:46.

she remains committed to her long standing campaigning for peace.

:37:46.:37:54.

What ideas are you exploring here? These are my own works about my

:37:54.:38:00.

life, the deep emotion of being born human and the barriers of

:38:00.:38:05.

movement over space as we know them. We can find out all sorts of things

:38:05.:38:15.
:38:15.:38:22.

I wonder how you feel about this big retrospective here at state

:38:22.:38:26.

modern? TRANSLATION: This is art that shines out from the bottom of

:38:26.:38:30.

my heart, human love, and I really wanted to display it in this

:38:30.:38:40.
:38:40.:38:44.

Kusama collaberated with musician Peter Gabriel, on this video.

:38:44.:38:54.
:38:54.:38:55.

What did he see in her work? really original point of view,

:38:55.:39:00.

passionate intensity, that was on the one hand, very child like, and

:39:00.:39:10.
:39:10.:39:11.

on another, very smart, adult and quite disturbing. We had a few days

:39:11.:39:16.

recreating some of her work, her boat full of Phalluses. Did one of

:39:16.:39:20.

your peters say, Peter, we have to spend more money, we will have to

:39:21.:39:26.

go down there and see how it is? is hard to locate the boat load of

:39:26.:39:32.

willies, so we definitely had to do it yourself!

:39:32.:39:38.

I'm glad you brought those up, the male member is to Kusama, what the

:39:38.:39:46.

tree trunk is to late Korea Hockney, dare we ask, what is that about?

:39:47.:39:50.

TRANSLATION: I was very afraid of fall sis, I haven't had sex. As a

:39:50.:39:57.

child I suffered a lot because my father led a very debauched

:39:57.:40:03.

lifestyle, and I came to hate sex. As a kind of art therapy, I created

:40:03.:40:13.
:40:13.:40:13.

lots of sex, filled a room with them, and I lost my fear.

:40:13.:40:17.

psychiatric hospital where Kusama lives, became a refuge of her own

:40:17.:40:21.

choosing, after a bout of illness a few years ago.

:40:21.:40:26.

TRANSLATION: For three or four days I didn't eat, I just painted and

:40:26.:40:30.

collapsed. Then I went to psychiatric hospital, the doctors

:40:30.:40:40.
:40:40.:40:40.

said that I had to be admitted. critics are sympathetic to Kusama's

:40:40.:40:44.

might, of course, that doesn't mean they all love her art? It is fun,

:40:44.:40:48.

like a fizzy drink, with all the spots, they are like bubbles, it

:40:48.:40:56.

has this endless fizz, it is every vestant, we are told it is driven

:40:56.:40:59.

by deep pain and psychological illness, that doesn't come through

:40:59.:41:04.

in the art, for me. I don't find it some kind of disturbing hypnotic

:41:05.:41:12.

ecstacy in this art. I find it a fizzy, pop cultural style. The show

:41:12.:41:17.

is fun, I have been looking forward to this place, the obliteration

:41:17.:41:27.
:41:27.:41:27.

room, they call it, it is not the bar, by the way. This or we willian

:41:27.:41:31.

sounding obliteration room is quiet at the moment. The idea is visitors

:41:31.:41:35.

can come and completely cover the surfaces with brightly covered

:41:35.:41:45.
:41:45.:41:50.

polka dots. Frpbgt I have to pack in the BBC coffee.

:41:50.:41:54.

Kusama also writes, makes films and sings. This is a lament for her

:41:55.:42:04.
:42:05.:42:06.

late parents. Draf vow! -- bravo, thank you very much, it is very

:42:06.:42:10.

nice to meet you. You would hardly have failed to notice that the

:42:10.:42:13.

England manager, Fabio Capello, resigned a few hours ago in protest

:42:13.:42:18.

at the FA's decision to strip John Terry of the England captaincy. It

:42:18.:42:21.

has left the national game in the usual state of complete chaos. With

:42:21.:42:28.

us now is the BBC sports editor, David Bond, and the journalist from

:42:28.:42:33.

The Times and the head of the footballers association.

:42:33.:42:40.

The papers are covered in the story, Capello's resignation and Harry

:42:40.:42:44.

Redknapp's acquittal on the tax charges. What is it all about?

:42:44.:42:48.

is embarrassing for an institution to have lost a manager and to have

:42:48.:42:52.

no captain. It is not catastrophic, we tend to exaggerate the

:42:52.:42:57.

importance of managers. We imbue them with almost mythical powers,

:42:57.:43:02.

and and we blame them when teams lose and usual guise them when the

:43:03.:43:08.

teams win. International managers don't decide the players' diets or

:43:08.:43:12.

decide the transfer market. This could be good. A lot of fuss about

:43:12.:43:15.

nothing? There is valid points there, but the manager is very much

:43:15.:43:21.

the focal point of this unit. When you have a team, this team needs a

:43:21.:43:25.

leader, that leader has to be strong and has to make sure he has

:43:25.:43:34.

the respect of all these under ings and he can drag them in the right

:43:34.:43:37.

direction. We were told Goran- Eriksson and Capello had the

:43:37.:43:41.

respect of the players, we were told every single manager for the

:43:41.:43:47.

last 30 years. The expectations are very high but it doesn't co-relate

:43:47.:43:51.

with the result. He got �6 million a year, he must have been doing

:43:51.:43:58.

something? In football that is no measure. We have seen plenty of top

:43:58.:44:02.

managers paid a lot of money and fail. You go to extremes, the

:44:02.:44:06.

highly-paid coach to the guru, then an English manager, that is the

:44:06.:44:11.

only way the players will truly respond. The danger is you keep

:44:11.:44:15.

swinging from those positions and you end up with this sort of

:44:15.:44:19.

shambles, no captain and manager. This bloke didn't learn English?

:44:19.:44:24.

That is definite low an issue, how he has communicated with the

:44:24.:44:29.

players. This has all come about, for once the FA has shown strong

:44:29.:44:33.

leadership on the John Terry issue. It has only come to past, because

:44:33.:44:38.

David Bernstein, the FA chairman, decided to make a stand, that John

:44:38.:44:42.

Terry shouldn't remain captain while still facing the racist

:44:42.:44:48.

allegations. Is race still an issue in society? Of course, it is still

:44:48.:44:55.

an issue in society. It is niave to think it is gone away. There are

:44:55.:45:01.

huge strides from the 1970s and 1980s where racist was endemic in

:45:01.:45:06.

societies. For us to believe it is gone away, not just recent

:45:06.:45:09.

incidents but thoughts shown in society shows it hasn't. We need to

:45:09.:45:13.

make sure we step on those campaigns to make sure the pockets

:45:13.:45:19.

become smaller and smaller: agree with the racial point?

:45:19.:45:25.

context is important, it was endemic in the 1970s, banana skins

:45:25.:45:29.

were thrown on the pitch. It was vital, and Sepp Blatter making

:45:29.:45:33.

comments about race in football. It was important for the FA to take a

:45:33.:45:38.

stand. I find it exordry that Capello, a bright and --

:45:38.:45:42.

extraordinary that Capello, a bright and cultured man, is going

:45:42.:45:46.

on this issue, someone not proved but with allegations against him.

:45:46.:45:51.

It is not about the allegations on John Terry, it is him taking the

:45:51.:45:56.

decisions. The end result is we haven't got a captain or manager?

:45:56.:45:59.

The mistake they made, was not consulting Capello, they didn't

:45:59.:46:09.

need to back down once he apressed his disagreement. They are as --

:46:09.:46:12.

They are as incompetent as it is said? Having promised to learn

:46:12.:46:17.

English when he got the job he hasn't, apparently he doesn't like

:46:17.:46:21.

using the telephone, this is the astonishing thing, a general

:46:21.:46:26.

manager was brought in on an astro nominal salary to be the conduit

:46:26.:46:32.

between Capello and the players and the board. He disappeared to a job

:46:32.:46:37.

in Roma, and Capello was not in the loop. Today we have learned he

:46:37.:46:42.

doesn't use the telephone, but Harry Redknapp doesn't use a

:46:42.:46:45.

computer or ever send an e-mail or text. Where do they find these

:46:45.:46:49.

people? It is an indictment isn't it. The next manager, will, for a

:46:50.:46:57.

period, will be a panacea, not for the national team but the national

:46:57.:47:02.

game. It is about the next major competition and losing on penalties

:47:02.:47:07.

and another disaster. What an extraordinary day, the possibility

:47:07.:47:10.

of two things happening, Harry Redknapp cleared on the footsteps

:47:10.:47:15.

of the Crown Court, and within a few hours Fabio Capello resigns.

:47:15.:47:21.

I'm sure many will have seen the stuff coming out. Is it the red

:47:21.:47:25.

card for the management? Absolutely, in the short-term they will need

:47:25.:47:32.

someone to take over. I tweeted about the two issues taking place.

:47:32.:47:38.

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