Browse content similar to 10/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, how sick is the health bill? The big changes the | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
Government is planning for the NHS are being eaten away by opposition | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
from within the Conservative Party. Go, go, go. | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
At least Tory cabinet ministers have apparently lost faith in | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
either the bill or the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley. It is | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
not about me, it is about us as a Government. Would you be prepared | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
to resign and get the bill through that way? | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Who are the Lansley three, we will ask the Health Minister, Simon | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
Burns, if he has any idea. Government resignations in Greece | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
as the eurozone tightens the screws even more, Paul Mason is in Athens. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
Greece signs an austerity package, the EU throws it back and asks for | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
more. Are the Germans trying to push this country into chaos. | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Also tonight, is being lonely a threat to your health? | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
On one of the coldest days of the year, the Government says | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
loneliness is a big killer for old people. Worse than smoking. | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
But is it just a ruse to get the elderly out of their big houses and | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
back to work? We will discuss the differences | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
:01:20. | :01:23. | ||
between loneliness and being alone, Good evening, anyone who looks at | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
the National Health Service knows that something has to change. The | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
ageing population, health inflation at 7% and the problems of running | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
Europe's biggest bureaucracy mean the NHS does have to adapt or die. | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
Against that background it is astonishing how lonely it must be | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
to be Andrew Lansley tonight. The Health Secretary has been told by | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
the popular website, Conservative Home, that three Tory cabinet | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
ministers have come to them, expressing deep reservation about | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
the bill. An unnamed Downing Street source suggests Mr Lansley should | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
be taken out and shot. The big question tonight is if Mr Lansley | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
cannot persuade serious people in his own party, how on earth can he | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
persuade the country? After 136 changes, already made to | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
a flagship bill, the Government, it seems, still hasn't got it right. | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
That's what at least part of the Government itself thinks. | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
Earlier this week an unnamed Number Ten adviser was quoted as saying | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
that Health Secretary Andrew Lansley should be taken out and | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
shot, for alienating doctors and nurses. Now three anonymous cabinet | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
ministers have allegedly chimed in too. Disloyally telling an | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
influential Tory website that the bill, or the Health Secretary, | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
should be dropped. But who were they? The editor of the site wasn't | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
letting on. I'm not giving any clues to the identity of these | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
cabinet ministers, I'm just focusing today on what they told me | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
about the National Health Service. So Newsnight set out to try to | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
wihittle down the list of suspects, by a process of lodge kaldeduction, | :03:01. | :03:11. | |
based on the responses we could kol -- logical deduction based on the | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
responses we could get today. Nine clearly told us they weren't among | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
the three, among them, Ken Clark, Michael Gove and Baroness Warsi, | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
that is apparently nine eliminated. A further eight said they supported | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
the bill in general, but refused to tell Newsnight directly whether or | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
not they had spoken to the website. They include Oliver Letwin, David | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Willetts, and Andrew Mitchell. We can fairly safely eliminate George | :03:39. | :03:46. | |
Osborne, Chancellor and head of Tory strategy, along with the Chief | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
Whip, these six remain as question marks, along with the final group | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
of ministers who didn't answer. Two of those, we can confidently say | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
would have been most unlikely to have briefed Conservative Home, | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
William Hague, and Theresa May. So that deduction leaves us with seven | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
Conservative cabinet attendees, who may have picked up the phone to | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
brief against their colleague, Andrew Lansley. That's assuming | :04:11. | :04:19. | |
that everyone has been open and honest in their responses. | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
In addition to that, Philip Hammond has contacted Newsnight in the last | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
hour to say he didn't speak to the Conservative Home side about the | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
bill. The road to the bill for the health | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
service has been long and ever more controversial, with many in the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
medical profession insisting that more competition won't help the NHS. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
The Government has had to make concessions to the Liberal | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
Democrats, but the main concern of some Conservatives, is not that the | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
bill is wrong, but that it is unnecessary, and politically | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
dangerous. There was still hope and belief of the possibility of a u- | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
turn. From your contacts since with Downing Street, how are they | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
reacting to this? There is unanimity that this is a terrible | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
pickle, if we had the time again the Conservative Party, the | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
coalition, wouldn't have embarked upon these reforms. I can't find | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
anybody who believes in these reforms enthusiastically, who is | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
willing to go out and argue with gusto. | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
Today the Health Secretary himself was heckled by protestors, as he | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
visited The Royal College of Surgeries in Edinburgh. But is such | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
opposition caused by the nature of the reforms themselves, or a fill | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
your to communicate their benefits. That is what Mr Lansley was | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
challenged over by a BBC colleague. This legislation has been supported | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
by the House of Commons, supported by the House of Lords, the bill has | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
been amended to take account of many changes. Aren't you the | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
problem here minister, aren't you the problem? Let me just tell you, | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
that we as a Government are committed, not just to this | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
legislation, it is not about the bill as such, it is about what the | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
bill enables the NHS to achieve in the future. That is not about me, | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
but us as a Government. Would you be prepared to resign and get the | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
bill through that way. Something some think the Health | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
Secretary will be gone after the next cabinet reshuffle in the | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
summer, his bill will probably survive, but it will face | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
opposition in the House of Lords and the Lib Dem spring conference. | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
The Lords can make amendments to the bill but they can't stop it. We | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
had a vote in the House of Commons on the third reading of the bill | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
and it got through. The likelihood is this bill will become law, | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
unless, of course, at a senior political level, the cabinet level, | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
it is recognised that they can see ahead and realise that this is | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
going to cause such catastrophy throughout the NHS, it is going to | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
cause political kas at that time trophy for the coalition as well -- | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
catastrophy for the coalition as well. As a politician he's widely | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
regarded as a minister of integrity, many enthused about him in the | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
early days of Government. Many now think it is adding to the | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
coalition's ills. The Health Minister, Simon Burns, is here, | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
welcome again. Do you have any idea who the three are, who was been | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
briefing the website? That is the froth of a question that | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
journalists and the Westminster village. You don't care, you think | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
:07:34. | :07:36. | ||
it is froth if three cabinet ministers are taking to task the | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
Health Secretary on a central plank of our Government? It is froth | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
trying to find out. They were in an article, unnamed, what is important | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
is that the Prime Minister fully supports the modernisation | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
legislation, the cabinet supports it, the House of Commons has voted | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
it through, and the House of Lords has given it a second reading and | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
will consider it, amendment wise. Presumably you don't know who the | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
12 cabinet members the Spectator says might want the bill killed? | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
I'm more interested in moving the bill forward because it is needed | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
for modernising the NHS. That is curious, you were a listening | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
minister, working to a listening Health Secretary who says he's | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
listening to people, and you are not listening to any of these | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
cabinet colleagues who have serious reservations and prepared to talk | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
to other people about it? certainly are listening, and will | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
continue to listen. What I have not heard from colleagues is, that the | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
bill should be withdrawn or changed even more. What I have heard from | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
colleagues is that they realise that the NHS has got to modernise, | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
to meet the challenges facing it, that you mentioned in your | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
introduction, and that they do not want it watered down to diminish | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
the main focus of the bill, which is concentrating on patients. | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
they are on your side and they agree with all that, why have you | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
so singularly failed to persuade them, so they are talking to | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
Conservative Home, highly regarded in your party, you highly regard | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
the website. The Spectator, which supports your party in broad terms, | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
why are they briefing these people and you are not hearing about it? | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
don't know who they are, I can't answer for them. Why wouldn't they | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
talk to you? I don't even know the context of conversations they had | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
with the seb website. It is rather difficult to answer it. What I can | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
tell you, from what I know, is what colleagues say to me in the House | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
of Commons, which is they fully understand that we need the | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
legislation to modernise the health service, because they believe that | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
it is the right way forward for GPs to commission their care. The bill | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
will survive, and Andrew Lansley will survive? I'm confident the | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
bill will survive, because what we have done over the last 15 months, | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
we created the independent future forum last April, May, so they, a | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
group of clinicians, and NHS people, went out to consult with the NHS, | :10:03. | :10:11. | |
to find out how we could improve and strengthen the fill. Andrew | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
Lansley will survive? Yes because he's doing a great job. He's said | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
to be the most knowledgeable person about the NHS, he knows it inside | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
and out, and he has a vision to modernise it, to meet the | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
challenges. That is the puzzle, isn't it, if you can't bring people | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
within the Conservative Party along with him, he's certainly not going | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
to bring a lot of Lib Dems. keep saying that, but the fact is, | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
the bill got a majority in the House of Commons and then passed to | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
the House of Lords. Because we have been able to listen, we have had | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
cross-party talks with Liberal Democrats, crossbenchers, and some | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
Labour peers in the House of Lords, we have got improvements that have | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
strengthened things like the comprehensive nature of the health | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
service, the issue dealing with inequalities. It is not becoming | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
your poll tax, a bill where Mrs Thatcher was told there is real | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
trouble if you force it through, she had to do a huge damaging u- | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
turn? I tell you why I don't think it is. When you have modernisation, | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
particularly in areas that are controversial, like the health | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
service, which arouses strong passions, you get a number of | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
forces that will fight it. You have political forces, in the form of | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
the opposition, you then have the bodies within the NHS, many of them | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
consider considered trade unions, who will fight change because they | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
are Conservative with a - conservative with a small "c", if | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
you had the BMA you wouldn't have had it in the first place. | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
Joining me is Isobel Oakeshott, political editor of the Sunday | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
Times, and Tim Collins, a former adviser to Tony Blair, and a | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
columnist with The Times. How much trouble is the bill in? If we were | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
to call it a patient, it would be sickly but not dying. I think there | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
is absolutely no question whatsoever of the Government | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
dropping this bill. David Cameron is actually his staunch, the | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
staunchest defenders of the bill, alongside Andrew Lansley. -- | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
defender of the bill, alongside Andrew Lansley. They have gone too | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
far to uark turn, if they u-turned on this, it would make all the | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
others look like a swerve around a pothole. Is it something that David | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
Cameron's own prestige and gut feeling is we have to do this, this | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
is really important? When you have got this far you have to go through | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
with it. He has been conspicuous by his absence over the last few days. | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
He needs to make the argument and come forward and make the argument | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
for competition. The bill should have been dropped long before now, | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
given he has got to this point, you can't possibly drop it now. The | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
other thing it would do to drop the bill now, would be to send out a | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
signal to the opposition to the bill in the professions, that we | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
blinked first. That any time we come back for any further health | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
reform, we are not going to do this. Simon Burns makes the fair point | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
that people are saying one thing perhaps privately to Conservative | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
Home and others, and they are saying something publicly, which is | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
different, in the way they are voting at least, so far? | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
Interestingly, I have spoken to two cabinet ministers today, who are | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
quite sympathetic with Andrew Lansley. What you do find is that | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
everybody in the cabinet is fed up with the mess this has got them | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
into. What they will say also, those that are trying to push | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
forward major reforms in their departments, understand that any | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
big changes like this always attract a great deal of noise, and | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
you know, you get machine gunned and you just have to get through it. | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
You went through this in your previous role, when people brief | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
against each other in cabinet is a problem? It is a prob embl. This is | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
a political fiasco of -- Problem. This is a political fiasco of a | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
huge kind. When Bevan was asked how did he get them on side, he said he | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
stuffed them with gold. Andrew Lansley is stuffing GPs with not | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
just gold but power, and they are still against him. He hasn't | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
brought the GPs over to his side eventhough they have the gold and | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
power. The The other problem we have, the Liberal Democrat party | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
machine is getting worried about this. They have kept their people | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
relatively disciplined about it over the last few weeks. Their | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
concern is now we are seeing Tories coming out against it, how will | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
they keep their people, grudging about the whole thing any way, how | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
will they keep them coming out over the next few weeks? Is the | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
implication they won't? We have another few weeks of this, running | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
up to the Lib Dem spring conference, where you will get people sticking | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
their necks out over it. interesting point made earlier | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
today, was that David Cameron, he said that extremely -- he did | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
extremely well in the run up to general election by neutralising | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
the NHS, and now having it as such a central poll I is, whether it is | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
right or wrong, it puts that right on the political map, that is | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
difficult for him? That is exactly what the plan was with the NHS, | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
simply to demonstrate that the NHS was safe in Conservative hands. | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
Everybody took that to mean that it would essentially do nothing. This | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
are a lot of reforms in the system that the previous Labour Government | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
had started. If the Conservatives had put their foot down hard on the | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
reforms, and said they wouldn't do another reorganisation, everybody | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
would have expected that. This change came really out of nowhere. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
If you look in the appendices of Conservative Party policy documents | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
from eight years ago, you can find most of these things. I suspect | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
most people don't read those things. I suspect you might be right on | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
that? I do, obviously. What do you think about Andrew Lansley, you | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
said there is quite a bit of a sympathy, some ministers know how | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
big this is, can he survive? He can and will. It is always dangerous to | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
predict reshuffles, I think he is very strongly supported by David | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
Cameron. I think Number Ten is conscious, Phil you were saying | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
that Cameron, the Prime Minister, needs to come out over the next few | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
days and be more vociferous about this, I understand that the Prime | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
Minister was concerned after prime ministers questions earlier this | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
week, that he hadn't actual low given Andrew Lansley a ringing | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
enough endorsement. What we will see over the next few days is the | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
Prime Minister getting out and defending this policy. I think he | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
can't survive and won't. Reform doesn't begin until after the thing | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
goes through the House. You will find over the next two years the | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
reform starts to happen, I don't think Andrew Lansley can sell this | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
reform out there in the country, I think another Health Secretary will | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
have to do that. There have been resignations are | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
from the grok Government today, despite yesterday's reports that | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
the latest austerity plan appeared to have been agreed. It comes as | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
the eurozone is demanding tougher cuts beyond those accepted by the | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
Greek Government, amid more trouble on the streets. | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
Why is there such a mess and sense of crisis tonight, when last night | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
it seemed as if they had done it? You have to look at the entire | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
thing, the process was they put the agreed austerity plan to the | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
European Union Finance Ministers, they said, no, they want more cuts | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
this year, they hadn't quite delivered that. They want the | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
parties in the coalition here to sign up more or less in person tut | :17:37. | :17:47. | |
to this austerity plan. -- perpituity, to this austerity plan. | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
One of the parties resigned, and said they wouldn't support the | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
austerity plan. In the last you foo minutes it was signed off by the | :17:56. | :18:04. | |
remained -- few minutes it was signed off by the remained ing | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
cabinet, and those others saying they are under the heel of Germany. | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
Where does it go from here, from the eurozone leaders and on the | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
streets? Today there has been clashes, as there nearly always are, | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
on Syntagma Square. There have been more than 20 Town Halls seized by | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
protesters. There is going to be a big strike today and tomorrow. A | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
massive demo on Sunday, which will ring the parliament and try to | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
prevent the MPs from getting in. I don't think it will be about, in | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
the future, social unrest, such as the complete disconnect between now | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
the majority of Greek voters and their parties. They have signed up | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
to something that manifestly most people here don't agree with. What | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
that is doing is corroding, not just the famous trust in politics | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
we see all too well in Britain and other countries, but actual | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
connection between people and their parties. We know what will happen | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
now if this just doesn't work. There will be a default. They will | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
have to leave the euro if it doesn't work, they will have to do | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
so under far more extreme parties than they have in power today. | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
Are you watching Newsnight alone, are you lonely? Loneliness | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
according to a senior adviser in Number Ten might be worse for your | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
old age than smoking. He made the comments in a speech about | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
encouraging speak to retire later. It came after Grant Shapps said the | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
elderly mighting encouraged to downsize in housing. | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
You get to retirement age and then they want you to take on a new job. | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
Number Ten won't interfere in Redknapp led red -- Harry | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
Redknapp's future, but they are saying some of the other 65 plus | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
could spare themselves loneliness if they take on jobs. Harry has | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
plenty of food, but they say Lenliness is worse than smoking for | :20:12. | :20:22. | |
:20:22. | :20:34. | ||
I'm going to see Maude Hazel, who has lived in this block of flats in | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
South-East London since 1939, when she moved in with her parents. | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
She's 86 now. Hello, I'm Stephen, how are you. | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
She lives on her own since the death of her long time companion | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
Marjorie five years ago. We went everywhere together, because I | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
suffered with agraphobia, a fear of open spaces. Because when Marjorie | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
died, I thought how will I get out. I thought to myself I have to eat | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
and buy food. I have got to make myself do it. It was very hard. But | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
I done it. Number Ten Downing Street, they are | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
saying loneliness could be a bigger killer amongst old people than | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
smoking, what do you think about that? I agree with them. Yes, | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
definitely. To suggest that loneliness is, social isolation is | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
more of a problem than smoking isn't particularly helpful, if it | :21:35. | :21:43. | |
distracts attention from things that Government can do in terms of | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
action around tobacco, things around the price of cigarettes, | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
restricting young people's access to cigarettes, reducing advertising | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
and so on, that would be a concern. I think it is interesting for us | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
looking at revolutions, because obvious low the political | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
revolutions are you don't have to be Marxists, and often linked up to | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
economic revolutions and instability. These, shall we say, | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
mature students, at the University of the Third Age, have been | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
studying revolutions at their regular get togethers in North | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
London. How do they feel about the sudden change that the Government | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
seems to favour. Why not just stay in and watch Countdown of an | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
afternoon? I found that U3A has given me an enormous opportunity to | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
fill in all the gaps. Studying for ourselves isn't the only thing our | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
age group does. There is a whole army of retired people who are out | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
there doing voluntary work for the society. If you put us to work, to | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
gainful employment. Paid employment? Yeah, you would have to | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
pay people to do the other jobs that we are doing voluntarily. | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
society certainly makes it easy to be isolated, as you get older and | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
more house bound. But I don't think you can legislate or advise about | :23:07. | :23:15. | |
what people should do. Of -- I have no idea if loneliness | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
is a bigger killer than smoking, it is a statistic from Number Ten. I | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
know loneliness is a big killer of people, and the Number Ten cure of | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
returning to be a wage slave back to work, people should be allowed | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
to do that if they wish, less ageism in the work place. If that | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
is not what they want, they should be enabled as older people to do | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
whatever they wish to do. Maud isn't by herself so much these | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
days, thanks to neighbours and a local charity. God willing, | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
loneliness won't claim her. As for smoking, she quit last year, aged | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
Esther Rantzen has written about loneliness, and is working on | :24:02. | :24:12. | |
setting up a charity aimed at those who are lonely, and Carol Morley, | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
who made the documentary about a woman who lay dead on her sofa for | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
three years before being found. What do you think? The World Health | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
Organisation came out with this first, they said loneliness was | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
worse for your health than smoking and or obesity. The reason is, if | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
you are lonely you lose the desire to live, that means you may go out | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
less, you may not eat properly, and lose the capacity for speech. I | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
watched my mother, when she was bereaved, when she reached a stage | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
in her life when she wasn't regularly meeting and talking to | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
people, when I could hear her speech deteriorate. That is why I | :24:52. | :24:59. | |
want to set up a helpline, I'm calling it, working title, Silver | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
Line, a befriending line but also an information line for older | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
people. Your own experience, you work, you are outgoing, and yet you | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
are lonely? To work the connection doesn't quite make it, does it, | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
just working doesn't do it? Working gives you teams of people to meet | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
during the day, at the end of the day, you open the door to a dark | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
room, a dark flat, a dark house, and the phrase is, you have got | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
plenty of people to do something with, but you have nobody to do | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
nothing with. It is that emotional gap that you need to fill. There is | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
a lot of provision out there, the trouble is people don't know where | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
to find it. It can fill that emotional gap in people's lives. | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
What do you make about this gap, whether loneliness is part of it? | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
In making the film I made. I discovered through the fodback, | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
that loneliness isn't about -- feedback, that loneliness isn't | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
about who you are with, people with can go to work and still -- people | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
can go to work and still be loneliness. There is a real shame | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
about it, being alone and being lonely are different things. The | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
old cliche, people can be lonely in a crowd. I think it is all very | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
confused what I have been reading about, this sense that you have to | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
go to work in order to have company, but actually when you are older you | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
also have to downsize, so you couldn't have room to have people | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
over. I find it very odd. I don't really trust what's being said. | :26:40. | :26:48. | |
that because while Governments are in the business of social policy | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
and so on, is it because the social arrangesments have changed, and | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
families don't go to church any more? I think they are making | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
social policy on fear. The way older people are treated in society, | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
everybody fears getting older. I think also that people, you know, | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
essentially, it is looking at the wrong things. I really don't think | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
getting old people to go to work is necessarily the way forward to | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
combat loneliness. I think it is very important that people continue | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
to feel needed, continue to feel valued. It doesn't necessarily mean | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
paid work, but voluntary work, if you have your health and strength, | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
puts you into company, and at the end of the day you feel a sense of | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
achievement. The centre for social justice did a study that showed | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
400,000 people, they did this at Christmas, 400,000 people regularly | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
spend days in which they don't talk to anyone. That is a new loneliness, | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
these are people who, perhaps like me, have spent all their lives with | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
friends, families, working teams, and sudden low they have to spend | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
whole days by themselves. That is a bit different from what you are | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
decribing, which is the young loneliness, which somebody linked | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
with depression. This is enforced loneliness. I just think loneliness | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
is not just necessarily to do with being older. Obviously as you get | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
older and you are not in work, the only solution, if the only solution | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
is seen as going out to work, I think it is a very poor rational. I | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
think actually we shutd be looking, I love -- should be looking, I | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
think the thing about getting a degree when you are older, make | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
sure the library is working, make sure there is infrastructure to | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
your day. Everything I'm hearing sounds like all the working people, | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
they will end up raising the pension, the age you can retire | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
because they will say, actually, it will keep you healthy. I think it | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
really is a problematic thing. haven't much time left, is the fact | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
that people are talking about it, we are certainly talking about it. | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Yet it is very there is this stigma, is that a change? It is a change, | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
and it is very important we start to talk about it. Someone wrote to | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
me when I first mentioned the fact that I feel lonely now. It is a bit | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
like in empty restaurants, if you admit you are lonely, people think | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
you are sad and socially isolated and avoid you like an empty | :29:21. | :29:31. | |
:29:31. | :30:09. | ||
restaurant. That's all tonight. Now we have the | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
review show, Charles Dickens themed. This is something we have been | :30:12. | :30:15. |