10/02/2012 Newsnight


10/02/2012

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Tonight, how sick is the health bill? The big changes the

:00:07.:00:11.

Government is planning for the NHS are being eaten away by opposition

:00:11.:00:17.

from within the Conservative Party. Go, go, go.

:00:17.:00:20.

At least Tory cabinet ministers have apparently lost faith in

:00:20.:00:23.

either the bill or the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley. It is

:00:23.:00:26.

not about me, it is about us as a Government. Would you be prepared

:00:26.:00:29.

to resign and get the bill through that way?

:00:29.:00:32.

Who are the Lansley three, we will ask the Health Minister, Simon

:00:32.:00:37.

Burns, if he has any idea. Government resignations in Greece

:00:37.:00:44.

as the eurozone tightens the screws even more, Paul Mason is in Athens.

:00:44.:00:48.

Greece signs an austerity package, the EU throws it back and asks for

:00:48.:00:51.

more. Are the Germans trying to push this country into chaos.

:00:51.:00:54.

Also tonight, is being lonely a threat to your health?

:00:54.:00:57.

On one of the coldest days of the year, the Government says

:00:57.:01:02.

loneliness is a big killer for old people. Worse than smoking.

:01:02.:01:06.

But is it just a ruse to get the elderly out of their big houses and

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back to work? We will discuss the differences

:01:10.:01:20.
:01:20.:01:23.

between loneliness and being alone, Good evening, anyone who looks at

:01:23.:01:27.

the National Health Service knows that something has to change. The

:01:27.:01:32.

ageing population, health inflation at 7% and the problems of running

:01:32.:01:36.

Europe's biggest bureaucracy mean the NHS does have to adapt or die.

:01:36.:01:39.

Against that background it is astonishing how lonely it must be

:01:39.:01:43.

to be Andrew Lansley tonight. The Health Secretary has been told by

:01:43.:01:47.

the popular website, Conservative Home, that three Tory cabinet

:01:47.:01:50.

ministers have come to them, expressing deep reservation about

:01:50.:01:54.

the bill. An unnamed Downing Street source suggests Mr Lansley should

:01:54.:01:59.

be taken out and shot. The big question tonight is if Mr Lansley

:01:59.:02:02.

cannot persuade serious people in his own party, how on earth can he

:02:02.:02:09.

persuade the country? After 136 changes, already made to

:02:09.:02:13.

a flagship bill, the Government, it seems, still hasn't got it right.

:02:13.:02:19.

That's what at least part of the Government itself thinks.

:02:19.:02:24.

Earlier this week an unnamed Number Ten adviser was quoted as saying

:02:24.:02:26.

that Health Secretary Andrew Lansley should be taken out and

:02:26.:02:31.

shot, for alienating doctors and nurses. Now three anonymous cabinet

:02:31.:02:35.

ministers have allegedly chimed in too. Disloyally telling an

:02:35.:02:39.

influential Tory website that the bill, or the Health Secretary,

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should be dropped. But who were they? The editor of the site wasn't

:02:44.:02:50.

letting on. I'm not giving any clues to the identity of these

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cabinet ministers, I'm just focusing today on what they told me

:02:53.:02:56.

about the National Health Service. So Newsnight set out to try to

:02:56.:03:01.

wihittle down the list of suspects, by a process of lodge kaldeduction,

:03:01.:03:11.

based on the responses we could kol -- logical deduction based on the

:03:11.:03:15.

responses we could get today. Nine clearly told us they weren't among

:03:15.:03:20.

the three, among them, Ken Clark, Michael Gove and Baroness Warsi,

:03:20.:03:24.

that is apparently nine eliminated. A further eight said they supported

:03:24.:03:29.

the bill in general, but refused to tell Newsnight directly whether or

:03:29.:03:36.

not they had spoken to the website. They include Oliver Letwin, David

:03:36.:03:39.

Willetts, and Andrew Mitchell. We can fairly safely eliminate George

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Osborne, Chancellor and head of Tory strategy, along with the Chief

:03:46.:03:50.

Whip, these six remain as question marks, along with the final group

:03:50.:03:54.

of ministers who didn't answer. Two of those, we can confidently say

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would have been most unlikely to have briefed Conservative Home,

:03:58.:04:03.

William Hague, and Theresa May. So that deduction leaves us with seven

:04:04.:04:07.

Conservative cabinet attendees, who may have picked up the phone to

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brief against their colleague, Andrew Lansley. That's assuming

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that everyone has been open and honest in their responses.

:04:19.:04:23.

In addition to that, Philip Hammond has contacted Newsnight in the last

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hour to say he didn't speak to the Conservative Home side about the

:04:28.:04:30.

bill. The road to the bill for the health

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service has been long and ever more controversial, with many in the

:04:34.:04:38.

medical profession insisting that more competition won't help the NHS.

:04:38.:04:41.

The Government has had to make concessions to the Liberal

:04:41.:04:43.

Democrats, but the main concern of some Conservatives, is not that the

:04:43.:04:49.

bill is wrong, but that it is unnecessary, and politically

:04:49.:04:54.

dangerous. There was still hope and belief of the possibility of a u-

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turn. From your contacts since with Downing Street, how are they

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reacting to this? There is unanimity that this is a terrible

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pickle, if we had the time again the Conservative Party, the

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coalition, wouldn't have embarked upon these reforms. I can't find

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anybody who believes in these reforms enthusiastically, who is

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willing to go out and argue with gusto.

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Today the Health Secretary himself was heckled by protestors, as he

:05:24.:05:28.

visited The Royal College of Surgeries in Edinburgh. But is such

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opposition caused by the nature of the reforms themselves, or a fill

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your to communicate their benefits. That is what Mr Lansley was

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challenged over by a BBC colleague. This legislation has been supported

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by the House of Commons, supported by the House of Lords, the bill has

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been amended to take account of many changes. Aren't you the

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problem here minister, aren't you the problem? Let me just tell you,

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that we as a Government are committed, not just to this

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legislation, it is not about the bill as such, it is about what the

:05:58.:06:01.

bill enables the NHS to achieve in the future. That is not about me,

:06:01.:06:05.

but us as a Government. Would you be prepared to resign and get the

:06:05.:06:10.

bill through that way. Something some think the Health

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Secretary will be gone after the next cabinet reshuffle in the

:06:15.:06:19.

summer, his bill will probably survive, but it will face

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opposition in the House of Lords and the Lib Dem spring conference.

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The Lords can make amendments to the bill but they can't stop it. We

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had a vote in the House of Commons on the third reading of the bill

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and it got through. The likelihood is this bill will become law,

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unless, of course, at a senior political level, the cabinet level,

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it is recognised that they can see ahead and realise that this is

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going to cause such catastrophy throughout the NHS, it is going to

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cause political kas at that time trophy for the coalition as well --

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catastrophy for the coalition as well. As a politician he's widely

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regarded as a minister of integrity, many enthused about him in the

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early days of Government. Many now think it is adding to the

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coalition's ills. The Health Minister, Simon Burns, is here,

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welcome again. Do you have any idea who the three are, who was been

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briefing the website? That is the froth of a question that

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journalists and the Westminster village. You don't care, you think

:07:24.:07:34.
:07:34.:07:36.

it is froth if three cabinet ministers are taking to task the

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Health Secretary on a central plank of our Government? It is froth

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trying to find out. They were in an article, unnamed, what is important

:07:43.:07:46.

is that the Prime Minister fully supports the modernisation

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legislation, the cabinet supports it, the House of Commons has voted

:07:51.:07:55.

it through, and the House of Lords has given it a second reading and

:07:55.:08:01.

will consider it, amendment wise. Presumably you don't know who the

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12 cabinet members the Spectator says might want the bill killed?

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I'm more interested in moving the bill forward because it is needed

:08:12.:08:15.

for modernising the NHS. That is curious, you were a listening

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minister, working to a listening Health Secretary who says he's

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listening to people, and you are not listening to any of these

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cabinet colleagues who have serious reservations and prepared to talk

:08:25.:08:28.

to other people about it? certainly are listening, and will

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continue to listen. What I have not heard from colleagues is, that the

:08:33.:08:38.

bill should be withdrawn or changed even more. What I have heard from

:08:38.:08:42.

colleagues is that they realise that the NHS has got to modernise,

:08:42.:08:46.

to meet the challenges facing it, that you mentioned in your

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introduction, and that they do not want it watered down to diminish

:08:51.:08:55.

the main focus of the bill, which is concentrating on patients.

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they are on your side and they agree with all that, why have you

:09:00.:09:03.

so singularly failed to persuade them, so they are talking to

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Conservative Home, highly regarded in your party, you highly regard

:09:06.:09:11.

the website. The Spectator, which supports your party in broad terms,

:09:11.:09:14.

why are they briefing these people and you are not hearing about it?

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don't know who they are, I can't answer for them. Why wouldn't they

:09:17.:09:21.

talk to you? I don't even know the context of conversations they had

:09:21.:09:26.

with the seb website. It is rather difficult to answer it. What I can

:09:26.:09:30.

tell you, from what I know, is what colleagues say to me in the House

:09:30.:09:34.

of Commons, which is they fully understand that we need the

:09:34.:09:39.

legislation to modernise the health service, because they believe that

:09:39.:09:44.

it is the right way forward for GPs to commission their care. The bill

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will survive, and Andrew Lansley will survive? I'm confident the

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bill will survive, because what we have done over the last 15 months,

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we created the independent future forum last April, May, so they, a

:09:57.:10:03.

group of clinicians, and NHS people, went out to consult with the NHS,

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to find out how we could improve and strengthen the fill. Andrew

:10:11.:10:16.

Lansley will survive? Yes because he's doing a great job. He's said

:10:16.:10:20.

to be the most knowledgeable person about the NHS, he knows it inside

:10:20.:10:24.

and out, and he has a vision to modernise it, to meet the

:10:24.:10:27.

challenges. That is the puzzle, isn't it, if you can't bring people

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within the Conservative Party along with him, he's certainly not going

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to bring a lot of Lib Dems. keep saying that, but the fact is,

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the bill got a majority in the House of Commons and then passed to

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the House of Lords. Because we have been able to listen, we have had

:10:44.:10:48.

cross-party talks with Liberal Democrats, crossbenchers, and some

:10:48.:10:53.

Labour peers in the House of Lords, we have got improvements that have

:10:53.:10:56.

strengthened things like the comprehensive nature of the health

:10:56.:11:00.

service, the issue dealing with inequalities. It is not becoming

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your poll tax, a bill where Mrs Thatcher was told there is real

:11:05.:11:09.

trouble if you force it through, she had to do a huge damaging u-

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turn? I tell you why I don't think it is. When you have modernisation,

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particularly in areas that are controversial, like the health

:11:17.:11:20.

service, which arouses strong passions, you get a number of

:11:20.:11:26.

forces that will fight it. You have political forces, in the form of

:11:26.:11:31.

the opposition, you then have the bodies within the NHS, many of them

:11:31.:11:36.

consider considered trade unions, who will fight change because they

:11:36.:11:40.

are Conservative with a - conservative with a small "c", if

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you had the BMA you wouldn't have had it in the first place.

:11:46.:11:49.

Joining me is Isobel Oakeshott, political editor of the Sunday

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Times, and Tim Collins, a former adviser to Tony Blair, and a

:11:54.:11:57.

columnist with The Times. How much trouble is the bill in? If we were

:11:57.:12:01.

to call it a patient, it would be sickly but not dying. I think there

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is absolutely no question whatsoever of the Government

:12:04.:12:09.

dropping this bill. David Cameron is actually his staunch, the

:12:09.:12:13.

staunchest defenders of the bill, alongside Andrew Lansley. --

:12:13.:12:16.

defender of the bill, alongside Andrew Lansley. They have gone too

:12:16.:12:20.

far to uark turn, if they u-turned on this, it would make all the

:12:21.:12:24.

others look like a swerve around a pothole. Is it something that David

:12:25.:12:28.

Cameron's own prestige and gut feeling is we have to do this, this

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is really important? When you have got this far you have to go through

:12:32.:12:38.

with it. He has been conspicuous by his absence over the last few days.

:12:38.:12:42.

He needs to make the argument and come forward and make the argument

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for competition. The bill should have been dropped long before now,

:12:44.:12:48.

given he has got to this point, you can't possibly drop it now. The

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other thing it would do to drop the bill now, would be to send out a

:12:52.:12:56.

signal to the opposition to the bill in the professions, that we

:12:56.:13:00.

blinked first. That any time we come back for any further health

:13:00.:13:04.

reform, we are not going to do this. Simon Burns makes the fair point

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that people are saying one thing perhaps privately to Conservative

:13:09.:13:12.

Home and others, and they are saying something publicly, which is

:13:12.:13:16.

different, in the way they are voting at least, so far?

:13:16.:13:20.

Interestingly, I have spoken to two cabinet ministers today, who are

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quite sympathetic with Andrew Lansley. What you do find is that

:13:25.:13:29.

everybody in the cabinet is fed up with the mess this has got them

:13:29.:13:32.

into. What they will say also, those that are trying to push

:13:32.:13:36.

forward major reforms in their departments, understand that any

:13:36.:13:39.

big changes like this always attract a great deal of noise, and

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you know, you get machine gunned and you just have to get through it.

:13:43.:13:46.

You went through this in your previous role, when people brief

:13:46.:13:51.

against each other in cabinet is a problem? It is a prob embl. This is

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a political fiasco of -- Problem. This is a political fiasco of a

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huge kind. When Bevan was asked how did he get them on side, he said he

:14:01.:14:05.

stuffed them with gold. Andrew Lansley is stuffing GPs with not

:14:05.:14:10.

just gold but power, and they are still against him. He hasn't

:14:10.:14:14.

brought the GPs over to his side eventhough they have the gold and

:14:14.:14:21.

power. The The other problem we have, the Liberal Democrat party

:14:21.:14:24.

machine is getting worried about this. They have kept their people

:14:24.:14:27.

relatively disciplined about it over the last few weeks. Their

:14:27.:14:31.

concern is now we are seeing Tories coming out against it, how will

:14:31.:14:35.

they keep their people, grudging about the whole thing any way, how

:14:35.:14:39.

will they keep them coming out over the next few weeks? Is the

:14:39.:14:44.

implication they won't? We have another few weeks of this, running

:14:44.:14:48.

up to the Lib Dem spring conference, where you will get people sticking

:14:48.:14:51.

their necks out over it. interesting point made earlier

:14:51.:14:56.

today, was that David Cameron, he said that extremely -- he did

:14:56.:15:00.

extremely well in the run up to general election by neutralising

:15:00.:15:03.

the NHS, and now having it as such a central poll I is, whether it is

:15:03.:15:07.

right or wrong, it puts that right on the political map, that is

:15:07.:15:12.

difficult for him? That is exactly what the plan was with the NHS,

:15:12.:15:16.

simply to demonstrate that the NHS was safe in Conservative hands.

:15:16.:15:20.

Everybody took that to mean that it would essentially do nothing. This

:15:20.:15:26.

are a lot of reforms in the system that the previous Labour Government

:15:26.:15:29.

had started. If the Conservatives had put their foot down hard on the

:15:29.:15:33.

reforms, and said they wouldn't do another reorganisation, everybody

:15:33.:15:37.

would have expected that. This change came really out of nowhere.

:15:37.:15:41.

If you look in the appendices of Conservative Party policy documents

:15:41.:15:45.

from eight years ago, you can find most of these things. I suspect

:15:45.:15:48.

most people don't read those things. I suspect you might be right on

:15:48.:15:52.

that? I do, obviously. What do you think about Andrew Lansley, you

:15:52.:15:57.

said there is quite a bit of a sympathy, some ministers know how

:15:57.:16:03.

big this is, can he survive? He can and will. It is always dangerous to

:16:03.:16:06.

predict reshuffles, I think he is very strongly supported by David

:16:06.:16:10.

Cameron. I think Number Ten is conscious, Phil you were saying

:16:10.:16:14.

that Cameron, the Prime Minister, needs to come out over the next few

:16:14.:16:17.

days and be more vociferous about this, I understand that the Prime

:16:18.:16:20.

Minister was concerned after prime ministers questions earlier this

:16:20.:16:24.

week, that he hadn't actual low given Andrew Lansley a ringing

:16:24.:16:27.

enough endorsement. What we will see over the next few days is the

:16:27.:16:33.

Prime Minister getting out and defending this policy. I think he

:16:33.:16:36.

can't survive and won't. Reform doesn't begin until after the thing

:16:36.:16:40.

goes through the House. You will find over the next two years the

:16:40.:16:43.

reform starts to happen, I don't think Andrew Lansley can sell this

:16:43.:16:46.

reform out there in the country, I think another Health Secretary will

:16:46.:16:49.

have to do that. There have been resignations are

:16:49.:16:54.

from the grok Government today, despite yesterday's reports that

:16:54.:16:57.

the latest austerity plan appeared to have been agreed. It comes as

:16:57.:17:00.

the eurozone is demanding tougher cuts beyond those accepted by the

:17:00.:17:06.

Greek Government, amid more trouble on the streets.

:17:06.:17:09.

Why is there such a mess and sense of crisis tonight, when last night

:17:10.:17:17.

it seemed as if they had done it? You have to look at the entire

:17:17.:17:23.

thing, the process was they put the agreed austerity plan to the

:17:23.:17:29.

European Union Finance Ministers, they said, no, they want more cuts

:17:29.:17:32.

this year, they hadn't quite delivered that. They want the

:17:32.:17:37.

parties in the coalition here to sign up more or less in person tut

:17:37.:17:47.

to this austerity plan. -- perpituity, to this austerity plan.

:17:47.:17:51.

One of the parties resigned, and said they wouldn't support the

:17:51.:17:56.

austerity plan. In the last you foo minutes it was signed off by the

:17:56.:18:04.

remained -- few minutes it was signed off by the remained ing

:18:04.:18:08.

cabinet, and those others saying they are under the heel of Germany.

:18:08.:18:12.

Where does it go from here, from the eurozone leaders and on the

:18:12.:18:18.

streets? Today there has been clashes, as there nearly always are,

:18:18.:18:24.

on Syntagma Square. There have been more than 20 Town Halls seized by

:18:24.:18:30.

protesters. There is going to be a big strike today and tomorrow. A

:18:30.:18:33.

massive demo on Sunday, which will ring the parliament and try to

:18:33.:18:38.

prevent the MPs from getting in. I don't think it will be about, in

:18:39.:18:43.

the future, social unrest, such as the complete disconnect between now

:18:43.:18:48.

the majority of Greek voters and their parties. They have signed up

:18:48.:18:52.

to something that manifestly most people here don't agree with. What

:18:52.:18:57.

that is doing is corroding, not just the famous trust in politics

:18:57.:19:01.

we see all too well in Britain and other countries, but actual

:19:01.:19:04.

connection between people and their parties. We know what will happen

:19:04.:19:07.

now if this just doesn't work. There will be a default. They will

:19:07.:19:12.

have to leave the euro if it doesn't work, they will have to do

:19:12.:19:20.

so under far more extreme parties than they have in power today.

:19:20.:19:25.

Are you watching Newsnight alone, are you lonely? Loneliness

:19:25.:19:30.

according to a senior adviser in Number Ten might be worse for your

:19:30.:19:34.

old age than smoking. He made the comments in a speech about

:19:34.:19:41.

encouraging speak to retire later. It came after Grant Shapps said the

:19:41.:19:46.

elderly mighting encouraged to downsize in housing.

:19:47.:19:51.

You get to retirement age and then they want you to take on a new job.

:19:51.:19:58.

Number Ten won't interfere in Redknapp led red -- Harry

:19:58.:20:02.

Redknapp's future, but they are saying some of the other 65 plus

:20:02.:20:07.

could spare themselves loneliness if they take on jobs. Harry has

:20:07.:20:12.

plenty of food, but they say Lenliness is worse than smoking for

:20:12.:20:22.
:20:22.:20:34.

I'm going to see Maude Hazel, who has lived in this block of flats in

:20:34.:20:38.

South-East London since 1939, when she moved in with her parents.

:20:38.:20:43.

She's 86 now. Hello, I'm Stephen, how are you.

:20:43.:20:49.

She lives on her own since the death of her long time companion

:20:49.:20:53.

Marjorie five years ago. We went everywhere together, because I

:20:53.:20:58.

suffered with agraphobia, a fear of open spaces. Because when Marjorie

:20:59.:21:03.

died, I thought how will I get out. I thought to myself I have to eat

:21:03.:21:08.

and buy food. I have got to make myself do it. It was very hard. But

:21:08.:21:14.

I done it. Number Ten Downing Street, they are

:21:14.:21:17.

saying loneliness could be a bigger killer amongst old people than

:21:17.:21:24.

smoking, what do you think about that? I agree with them. Yes,

:21:24.:21:30.

definitely. To suggest that loneliness is, social isolation is

:21:30.:21:35.

more of a problem than smoking isn't particularly helpful, if it

:21:35.:21:43.

distracts attention from things that Government can do in terms of

:21:44.:21:47.

action around tobacco, things around the price of cigarettes,

:21:47.:21:50.

restricting young people's access to cigarettes, reducing advertising

:21:50.:21:56.

and so on, that would be a concern. I think it is interesting for us

:21:56.:22:00.

looking at revolutions, because obvious low the political

:22:00.:22:06.

revolutions are you don't have to be Marxists, and often linked up to

:22:06.:22:10.

economic revolutions and instability. These, shall we say,

:22:10.:22:15.

mature students, at the University of the Third Age, have been

:22:15.:22:18.

studying revolutions at their regular get togethers in North

:22:18.:22:20.

London. How do they feel about the sudden change that the Government

:22:20.:22:25.

seems to favour. Why not just stay in and watch Countdown of an

:22:26.:22:32.

afternoon? I found that U3A has given me an enormous opportunity to

:22:32.:22:36.

fill in all the gaps. Studying for ourselves isn't the only thing our

:22:36.:22:41.

age group does. There is a whole army of retired people who are out

:22:41.:22:48.

there doing voluntary work for the society. If you put us to work, to

:22:48.:22:51.

gainful employment. Paid employment? Yeah, you would have to

:22:51.:22:55.

pay people to do the other jobs that we are doing voluntarily.

:22:56.:23:01.

society certainly makes it easy to be isolated, as you get older and

:23:01.:23:07.

more house bound. But I don't think you can legislate or advise about

:23:07.:23:15.

what people should do. Of -- I have no idea if loneliness

:23:15.:23:22.

is a bigger killer than smoking, it is a statistic from Number Ten. I

:23:22.:23:30.

know loneliness is a big killer of people, and the Number Ten cure of

:23:30.:23:33.

returning to be a wage slave back to work, people should be allowed

:23:33.:23:37.

to do that if they wish, less ageism in the work place. If that

:23:37.:23:41.

is not what they want, they should be enabled as older people to do

:23:41.:23:46.

whatever they wish to do. Maud isn't by herself so much these

:23:46.:23:51.

days, thanks to neighbours and a local charity. God willing,

:23:51.:23:56.

loneliness won't claim her. As for smoking, she quit last year, aged

:23:56.:24:02.

Esther Rantzen has written about loneliness, and is working on

:24:02.:24:12.

setting up a charity aimed at those who are lonely, and Carol Morley,

:24:12.:24:16.

who made the documentary about a woman who lay dead on her sofa for

:24:16.:24:20.

three years before being found. What do you think? The World Health

:24:20.:24:24.

Organisation came out with this first, they said loneliness was

:24:24.:24:30.

worse for your health than smoking and or obesity. The reason is, if

:24:30.:24:35.

you are lonely you lose the desire to live, that means you may go out

:24:35.:24:42.

less, you may not eat properly, and lose the capacity for speech. I

:24:42.:24:45.

watched my mother, when she was bereaved, when she reached a stage

:24:45.:24:49.

in her life when she wasn't regularly meeting and talking to

:24:49.:24:52.

people, when I could hear her speech deteriorate. That is why I

:24:52.:24:59.

want to set up a helpline, I'm calling it, working title, Silver

:24:59.:25:03.

Line, a befriending line but also an information line for older

:25:03.:25:07.

people. Your own experience, you work, you are outgoing, and yet you

:25:07.:25:12.

are lonely? To work the connection doesn't quite make it, does it,

:25:13.:25:18.

just working doesn't do it? Working gives you teams of people to meet

:25:19.:25:22.

during the day, at the end of the day, you open the door to a dark

:25:23.:25:27.

room, a dark flat, a dark house, and the phrase is, you have got

:25:27.:25:32.

plenty of people to do something with, but you have nobody to do

:25:32.:25:38.

nothing with. It is that emotional gap that you need to fill. There is

:25:38.:25:41.

a lot of provision out there, the trouble is people don't know where

:25:41.:25:46.

to find it. It can fill that emotional gap in people's lives.

:25:46.:25:53.

What do you make about this gap, whether loneliness is part of it?

:25:53.:25:58.

In making the film I made. I discovered through the fodback,

:25:58.:26:01.

that loneliness isn't about -- feedback, that loneliness isn't

:26:01.:26:08.

about who you are with, people with can go to work and still -- people

:26:08.:26:13.

can go to work and still be loneliness. There is a real shame

:26:13.:26:17.

about it, being alone and being lonely are different things. The

:26:17.:26:21.

old cliche, people can be lonely in a crowd. I think it is all very

:26:21.:26:26.

confused what I have been reading about, this sense that you have to

:26:26.:26:30.

go to work in order to have company, but actually when you are older you

:26:30.:26:33.

also have to downsize, so you couldn't have room to have people

:26:33.:26:39.

over. I find it very odd. I don't really trust what's being said.

:26:40.:26:48.

that because while Governments are in the business of social policy

:26:48.:26:53.

and so on, is it because the social arrangesments have changed, and

:26:53.:26:56.

families don't go to church any more? I think they are making

:26:56.:27:01.

social policy on fear. The way older people are treated in society,

:27:01.:27:05.

everybody fears getting older. I think also that people, you know,

:27:05.:27:10.

essentially, it is looking at the wrong things. I really don't think

:27:10.:27:15.

getting old people to go to work is necessarily the way forward to

:27:15.:27:17.

combat loneliness. I think it is very important that people continue

:27:17.:27:22.

to feel needed, continue to feel valued. It doesn't necessarily mean

:27:23.:27:27.

paid work, but voluntary work, if you have your health and strength,

:27:27.:27:31.

puts you into company, and at the end of the day you feel a sense of

:27:31.:27:35.

achievement. The centre for social justice did a study that showed

:27:35.:27:39.

400,000 people, they did this at Christmas, 400,000 people regularly

:27:40.:27:44.

spend days in which they don't talk to anyone. That is a new loneliness,

:27:44.:27:48.

these are people who, perhaps like me, have spent all their lives with

:27:48.:27:53.

friends, families, working teams, and sudden low they have to spend

:27:53.:27:58.

whole days by themselves. That is a bit different from what you are

:27:58.:28:01.

decribing, which is the young loneliness, which somebody linked

:28:01.:28:07.

with depression. This is enforced loneliness. I just think loneliness

:28:07.:28:13.

is not just necessarily to do with being older. Obviously as you get

:28:13.:28:17.

older and you are not in work, the only solution, if the only solution

:28:17.:28:22.

is seen as going out to work, I think it is a very poor rational. I

:28:22.:28:27.

think actually we shutd be looking, I love -- should be looking, I

:28:27.:28:31.

think the thing about getting a degree when you are older, make

:28:31.:28:36.

sure the library is working, make sure there is infrastructure to

:28:36.:28:41.

your day. Everything I'm hearing sounds like all the working people,

:28:41.:28:45.

they will end up raising the pension, the age you can retire

:28:45.:28:49.

because they will say, actually, it will keep you healthy. I think it

:28:50.:28:54.

really is a problematic thing. haven't much time left, is the fact

:28:54.:28:57.

that people are talking about it, we are certainly talking about it.

:28:57.:29:01.

Yet it is very there is this stigma, is that a change? It is a change,

:29:01.:29:05.

and it is very important we start to talk about it. Someone wrote to

:29:05.:29:10.

me when I first mentioned the fact that I feel lonely now. It is a bit

:29:10.:29:15.

like in empty restaurants, if you admit you are lonely, people think

:29:15.:29:21.

you are sad and socially isolated and avoid you like an empty

:29:21.:29:31.
:29:31.:30:09.

restaurant. That's all tonight. Now we have the

:30:09.:30:12.

review show, Charles Dickens themed. This is something we have been

:30:12.:30:15.

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