Browse content similar to 13/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Disorder, default, devastation, just days for Greece to convince | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
creditors this time it will make austerity stick. With riots on the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
streets and unease and rebellions in Parliament, four years of | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
recession and hardship have taken their toll. Paul Mason is there. | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
There's been two years of this and no sign of it letting up. The | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
question now is given that the politicians don't really believe in | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
the austerity, and the Greek people don't believe in it either, it work | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
and can Greek society holding to together? Is Germany saving Greece | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
from ruin or making the suffering worse? And is the Sun going down? | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
One of its leading writers says there's a witch-hunt against Sun | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
journalists. And Sue Lloyd Roberts asks Egyptian | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
women about the sexual abuse many experienced during the Arab Spring. | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
TRANSLATION: If a man forces you to take your clothes off and puts his | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
hand up into your private area, and lives it there for five minutes, | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
this is sexual aggression. I felt utterly defeated. | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
Good evening. In the Vietnam War an American officer is supposed to | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
have said that his troops had to destroy a village in order to save | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
it. You might think something similar in happening right now in | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
Greece. In order to qualify for more funds to pay its debts by | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
March 20th, Greece has had to introduce the toughest austerity | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
programme in Europe since World War II. It's produced violence on the | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
streets. In Germany, officials mutter about the bottomless pit of | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
Greek debts and the devastation that a disorderly unwrapping would | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
cause. Here is Paul Mason in Athens. Last night, the Greek Parliament | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
was asked to look into the abyss, to choose between rejecting | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
austerity, with probable default, probable exit from the euro or | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
implementing austerity as demanded by the EU. And 101 out of 300 MPs | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
said they prefer the abyss. They either didn't turn up to vote or | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
voted against the two main parties each had to expel 20 of their own | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
MPs. A third of the coalition party has left the coalition. The | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
majority passed the austerity measure. That should pave the way, | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
starting on Wednesday, for the European Union begin to write off | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
100 billion euros of Greek debt. But meanwhile, in the parallel | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
universe that starts at the Greek Parliament, there was another Greek | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
reality. And that was the people. Small business people, workers, and | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
young people facing 20% unemployment who had had enough, | :03:12. | :03:20. | |
and they, last night, had their say. As I found out. | :03:20. | :03:29. | |
It It was supposed to be one last, big demonstration against austerity. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
Workers facing wage cuts, pensioners facing hardship, a lot | :03:34. | :03:44. | |
:03:44. | :03:45. | ||
of people facing an uncertain future. But as dusk fell, the | :03:45. | :03:55. | |
:03:55. | :03:56. | ||
trouble began. Tens of thousands of people found themselves on streets | :03:56. | :04:05. | |
filled with tear gas and fires. And at the front, the minority who | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
had come to fight got what they wanted. | :04:11. | :04:20. | |
The police fought into the night. Months of frustration were released. | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
The police made no attempt to control the streets, so the | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
firebombers had, for some time, free rein. There's been two years | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
of this and no sign of it letting up. The question now is, given that | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
the politicians don't really believe in the austerity and the | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
Greek people don't believe in it either, can it work and can Greek | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
society hold together? 45 buildings were burnt, including this historic | :04:51. | :04:59. | |
cinema. 130 people were arrested. In Parliament, Prime Minister, | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Lucas Papademos, got a majority for the new austerity package, but both | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
of the major parties had to expel 20 MPs each who opposed the bill. | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
And this morning, Antonis Samaras, who is likely to be the next Prime | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
Minister, announced he would like to containing change and | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
renegotiate the agreement. After last night, how long can Greece | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
last without an election. Nobody can govern a democratic country | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
without the people. I believe the elections are necessary. The | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
decision making is necessary in order to have our citizens with us | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
and not against us. We, the politicians, we have to be more | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
sensitive and more responsible. We have to speak clear and honestly to | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
the people. Whatever last night's vote achieved | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
it was not closure. Greeks are shell shocked at the damage. Shell | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
shocked at the scale of the austerity they just voted for. And | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
trust in the political system is, for many, draining away. | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
Joining me now, live from Athens is Paul. How quickly did the EU have | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
to come up with a second detail out? Well, it starts effectively on | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
Wednesday. But I think it's the beginning of March that we're | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
looking at. A window at the beginning of March before 20th, | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
when the so called PSI, the private sector gets involved. One Greek | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
paper is reporting that 73% of the value of the loans gets written off | :06:37. | :06:45. | |
and Greece gets allowed to have its debt reduced to only 125% of GDP, | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
as opposed to 120, which is the plan, by 2020. But for most people | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
this is academic. What I've heard since I've been here is political | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
operators on all sides of the Parliament saying, in the first | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
bailout we tried to sell it to people on the grounds that it would | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
work and we'd stabilise ourselves and the economy would come back. | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
Now, we're selling it to people on the idea that the alternative is | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
disaster and doom. Very few people are prepared to go out and say, | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
"And it will work" and that's because when you look at the | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
dynamics of this country, few restaurants while I've been here | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
with will take credit cards. They want cash. They'll give you a | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
receipt, but they will not take plastic. And slowly but surely, | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
cash, bank deposits are leaking out of the economy and it juz does not | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
-- just does not look like this can turn itself around. And some of the | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
people on the streets were not radical radbles, they are voters. | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
In an election they will want to have their say with their | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
candidates. They will place pressure on the candidates which | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
the European Union will find inconvenient. So what the European | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
Union now has to judge is whether the political system. I'm not | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
talking about it fragmenting and falling apart, but simply | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
delivering what they've just voted on. If they can't do that, that's | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
key for the leadership as the euro approaches the technicalities of | :08:26. | :08:33. | |
giving Greece 130 billion euros. Thank you very much. I'm joined by | :08:33. | :08:43. | |
geest's Finance Minister last summer, Giorgios Papaconstantinou, | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
and Costas Lapavitsas and Christian Schulz. Listening to that, it's | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
clear many people don't want the austerity and many politicians | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
don't think it can work, so who are you doing this for? We're doing it | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
for the country and the citizens obviously. It's been an extremely | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
tough two years. There is no question that people are hurting. | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
Unemployment is at a record level, wages and pensions have been cut, | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
taxes have opinion been raised so it's no surprise that people are | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
looking at the middle of the recession and its worst point and | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
cannot see the exit. And what this new programme is supposed to | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
deliver is to turn the page, to show that confidence can return and | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
that we can put all this behind us and slowly but surely go back on a | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
path of sustainable growth. But it is very clear we were not on such a | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
path before. Indeed, but you have riots in the streets. Within a | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
couple of months you could have elections which could throw all the | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
existing government out and there are those who think this is the | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
insincere acceptance of the impossible. You know you really | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
can't do it? You know, it's easy to look at the riots and say this | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
represents a situation. The demonstrations are, of course, an | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
indication of how people feel. The riots themselves are done by a very | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
small minority of extremists, and plain criminals. It is very clear | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
that at the end of two years of austerity it is not easy to | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
convince people. The question is, is there an alternative to this? Is | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
there something else that we can do. You could leave the eurozone. That | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
would be an alternative? Yes, at a disastrous cost for the country and | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
for the citizens. It is very easy for people to say that. Let me tell | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
you, in very brief term, what would have happened this morning in | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
Greece if the Parliament had voted a different way last night. If it | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
had voted "no", rather than "yes". This morning, around 9.30, there | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
would have been queues at the banks and the Government would have had | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
to close down the banks and Greece would be an island unable to trade | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
with the rest of the world, unable to pay salaries and pensions. It | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
would be a total unmitigated disaster. Those who think there is | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
a way to get out of the euro that is painless and does not shut down | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
the banking system are either deluding themselves or playing a | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
very dangerous game with the Greek people. This is the least worst | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
option, is that an argument? Not at all. I think what is happening to | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
Greece at the moment is a disgrace. There is real despair and poverty | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
in the country and that has been imposed on it by its so-called | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
allies and partners. This is the first thing that has to be said. | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
This has not got a snowball's chance in hell of working. It is | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
heading towards the exit from the Europe and towards bankruptcy in a | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
chaotic way. This is what we've got in front of us, and the argument is | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
among many people in Greece and elsewhere, it is the Greeks who | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
should do that, they should take charge of their own future | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
deliberately and with a plan. is your reaction to that, minister? | :12:18. | :12:26. | |
Yes, what I hear is a collection of slogans, but I hear no answer to | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
the scenario which I -- the nightmare scenario that I just | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
painted for you. Of course Greece should take care of itself and take | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
its own destiny in hand. But when you have a country that year upon | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
year was spending more than it had. That was not really producing and | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
got a huge external deficit and found itself with a debt of 360 | :12:50. | :12:57. | |
billion euro then it is very easy to say, "Let's just forget this | :12:57. | :13:04. | |
debt." We can't survive if they somehow, by ourselves decide not to | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
pay our creditors. We do not have a surplus to have more revenue than | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
expenditure. Forgive me for interrupting, but if you do all | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
these good things that you say you feel you have to do by 2020, after | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
another eight years of austerity, your debt will still be 125% of GDP | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
and that in itself may not be payable? Which is about the level | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
of Italy and Ireland and certainly less than the level of Japan. 120% | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
is too high and hopefully we will be able to grow fast, but again on | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
a more sustainable footing and reduce it faster than that. But | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
let's remember what happened in these last two years. In these last | :13:53. | :14:00. | |
two years we reduced it by a massive 20 billion because people | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
took serious sacrifices. Can we really throw all this out and to | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
claw back some of the competitiveness that was lost in | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
the last ten years, do we just throw it out of the window. How do | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
you buy into the argument that this is doable and if so, how much pain | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
is Greece going to have to accept, given that many think in Greece | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
they are being bullied into this by German and other countries? I agree | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
that we should not look at Greece in a deep recession after four | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
years of recession and say this is the way Greece and this is how it | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
will always be. The Germans shouldn't do that, the ones that | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
say at the moment that Greece might be a bottomless pit and the Greeks | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
and the markets shouldn't do that. The level doesn't matter of GDP, | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
what matters is the direction the country is taken in. If the | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
trajectory of the country is 100% it is a different view we have to | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
take. But a German MP said today that a Greek exit from the eurozone | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
would not be the end of the world. That is a very dangerous feeling | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
that is spreading in some parts of the Conservative Party in Germany, | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
that the firewalls are high enough now that a Greek exit wouldn't be a | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
problem any more, but we doubt this is the case. Greece has had 14% | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
contraction of GDP in the last two or three years. It has 21% | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
unemployment and this plan aims for primary surpluses of the Government | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
next year and the year after that. Greece has no business going for | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
primary surpluses right now. This is entirely the wrong economic | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
policy. The people who designed this need to go back to schedule. | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
But with a Greek election in April, do you think it will be rejected by | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
the people? I think the Greek political system in its entirety is | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
competely discredited right now. This is the end of an era in Greece | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
and I don't know if people realise this, but this is where we are. The | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
party that's run Greece is completely finished. The party on | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
the right is in disarray because of how it voted yesterday. I think a | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
new configuration is emerging and the thing that is making all the | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
difference is what is happening on the ground. And what people want is | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
an end to this. They want an end to this humiliation and want a new | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
policy. In terms of the overall future of Greek democracy is that | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
something you worry about. I don't mean specifically that your party | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
is low in the opinion polls, but the whole future 6 Greek democracy | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
is up in the air? Look, we're paying the price of being the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
firefighters and rather the people turning on the ones who put the | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
fire in the first place, they're turning on the firefighters who are | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
trying to do something about the situation. We're paying a political | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
price. That is what politics is about. I am worried about the | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
future democrats democracy because I am worried about the rising of | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
the extremes. I am worried when a listen to people like Mr Lapavitsas | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
who try to say it's a painless way of getting rid of all the debt upon | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
our country and be able, the next day, come back to the ways as we | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
used to keep going. In other words by spending, but now there will be | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
nobody willing to lend us the money to continue spending. We were a | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
society that was over consuming, who was buying from abroad and did | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
not have a productive base. And we did not restructure our economy in | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
time. This programme is not just about austerity it is about deep | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
reforms reforming the state and the Social Services reforming the tax | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
system so people pay and not evading taxes. This is what it is | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
about. It is a mistake to reduce this programme simply into | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
reductions in expenditure in the public sector. This is part of it, | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
but it's not the whole thing. tell you one thing that really | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
infuriates Greeks right now, precisely the class of politicians | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
that brought this country to this pass, are wagging their fingers and | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
telling people what to do now. It cannot be done. Greece needs a new | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
political line and new organisations. No-one said that | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
getting out of the euro or defaulting on the debt, which | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
actually the country is doing by itself, is going to be easy. But | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
looking at the policy adopted right now is guaranteed to end up in | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
failure. A quick word on that? don't think it's guaranteed to end | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
up in failure. I think Greece is taking the right steps, it just got | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
unlucky. Last year exports were rising but then the mistake was | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
made to restructure Greek debt and there by destroy all the confidence | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
people had been building into a recovery of the country. Now, if | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
Greece were to exit the country we would make the same mistake and | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
spread that mistake to other countries. A final word? I do not | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
my country to become North Korea in Europe. I want my country to become | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
a normal country and I believe we have every possibility to do so. We | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
have the people and the productive resources and there's nothing | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
different in the Greek DNA than that in the rest of Europe. We had | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
a political class that failed the country, but let's not lump | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
everybody together because those who tried to make amends in the | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
last few years are being lumped together with those who created the | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
mess in the future. It's about values and what kind of democracy | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
we want and about presentation and not about a clientistic system of | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
governance. This is what it is about. But it's certainly not about | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
far-fetched ideas that claim that we can somehow get out of this | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
situation without hard work and sacrifices in as just a way as | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
:20:43. | :20:44. | ||
possible. Thank you all very much. In typically robust form, the Sun | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
journalist, Trevor Kavanagh lashed out at the police. Senior figures | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
at the Sun have been questioned after information which came | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
apparently from inside the parent company. Is this global media | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
empire now at war with itself or is it a witch hunt and a threat to | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
press freedom as Mr Arrive nar said? This feels like a witch-hunt. | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
There's a mass hysteria going on now. This is going to be a great | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
cloud hanging over News Corp for the next few years. The Sun came | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
out with heart-felt pleas for justice, for the Sun. | :21:24. | :21:34. | |
:21:34. | :21:37. | ||
The words of Trevor Kavanagh, its senior writer.. Whether we're from | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
red-top tabloids or TV programmes late at night on the BBC, | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
journalists have a tendency to self-mythologyise. We're all | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
legends in our own lunchtime. And the Sun say the wave of arrests at | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
their own newspaper are now threatening the freedom of the | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
press. I Why do we have to have dawn raids and 171 police mn on the | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
case. It's complete overkill. many policemen should be involved? | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Not 171. And if this is about whether our soldiers had the right | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
equipment I'd say it was a public offence here, just as the MPs | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
expenses. Others who have taken on News International say without | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
knowing what is being investigated it is far too early to claim a | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
public offence. I don't think it's a witch-hunt. I know why it might | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
be perceived as such, but if the police think there is a group of | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
witches somewhere they have to hunt for them. They can't decide to | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
interview some but not others, they have to look for the whole lot of | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
people. But isn't it overkill when you have 120 police officers raided | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
journalist's houses at dawn? It's a bit rich for the Sun to complain | :23:01. | :23:09. | |
about dawn raids, they used to attend dawn raids on other people. | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
Trevor Kavanagh said those arrested had been dropped in it, implicate | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
the in alleged wrongdoing by the parent company, News Corp. A large | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
number of extremely good journalists who have worked very | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
loyally for the company for a very long time, as the company has | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
announced itself, are often in police cells for a long period of | :23:32. | :23:40. | |
time on evidence provided by the company. Shareholders at New corps | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
are deeply concerned that the scandal in the British papers is | :23:44. | :23:52. | |
now threatening Murdoch's entire show. America's foreign and corrupt | :23:52. | :24:00. | |
picturess Act has had the FBI investigating for over six months. | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
These investigations are broader in scope. We now have a different | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
newspaper and part of the company that will be the focus of inquiry | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
and we now have a much broad Erekat disagree of "foreign officials" | :24:12. | :24:21. | |
that were allegedly the recipients of payments. Including some in the | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
military. Last summer, Rupert Murdoch flew into the UK to give | :24:26. | :24:35. | |
his endorsement to international's Rebekah Weighed. She then resigned. | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
Those people hoping that the Sun will close down and go out of | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
business should be careful what they wish for because without it | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
there will be no Sunday papers because they subsidise it. We need | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
a free and varied press in this country and the Sun is part of that. | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
Sources in America say James Murdoch, Rupert's son, is | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
increasingly unlikely to persuade shareholders their business could | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
be safe in his hands and across the Murdoch media, law enforcement will | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
want questions answered. They typically ask the where else | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
question. In other words were payments like this occurring in our | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
News Corp businesses or subsidiary areas, including all over the world. | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
That's why inquiries like this can generally take several years. | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
Another thing they will be asking is what did the executive officer | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
know and when did they know it? Did they participate in any of the | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
wrongdoing? Did they authorise any of the improper payments? Did they | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
have knowledge of the impour payments but failed to put a stop | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
to them, they're some of the questions that will be asked. | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
Metropolitan Police tonight issued a statement saying no more than ten | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
officers were used in the raids on journalists. They added that they | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
don't believe that the level of resources on the inquiries is in | :26:06. | :26:16. | |
any way dis proportionate to the task in hand. With me is Dominick | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
Mohan and Charlotte Harris, and Michael Wolff who wrote biography | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
of Rupert Murdoch. It's hardly a witch-hunt if the police follow the | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
evidence and go where it leads and make an arrest if necessary. | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
everything in proportion. Of course there probably has been some | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
wrongdoing, but it is the way it is done. We now live in a country, | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
where I can't believe and your listeners won't believe where Abu | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
Qatada can walk free but the police are banging up the journalists. Ten | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
officers per arrest. 15 police officers this weekend at a time | :26:59. | :27:06. | |
where there are drugs going on. Do we really need 50 coppers? But even | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
if Abu Qatada is a case that gets people worked up. This is | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
proportionate? I'm proud to say I know one of them in his 60s. Do | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
they think he will run off. This is ridiculous. It's serious overkill. | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
I don't think that anyone was really going to run away and I | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
agree that ten police officers did seem somewhat excessive. But I | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
don't think that was the only point that the article that has caused | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
all this discussion today was making. And it's quite interesting, | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
because, of course, the Sun have never been particularly | :27:46. | :27:53. | |
proportionate in themselves. that's an excuse, is it. | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
necessary. But to an extent is it rich and interesting watching this | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
shocked response. Of course the police have to follow up. That's | :28:00. | :28:09. | |
very, very important. We spent six years. More police officer than | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
investigated Lockerbie or Madeline McCann, or July 7th. This is a | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
Murdoch smoke screen. This is classic Murdoch stuff. You're | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
missing the entire point. Was there a crime, that's the only issue here. | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
It doesn't really matter how many police officers are devoted to | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
finding a crime if there was a crime. I agree. The crime. Are you | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
guilty? Are you guilty? Michael, you're not listening. I'm saying of | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
course if there is a crime there has to be an investigation. One at | :28:45. | :28:54. | |
a time. One at a time. This is Murdoch stuff. Smoke screen. They | :28:54. | :29:02. | |
pulled police officers off London 2012, beat can you justify that. | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
don't think anybody thinks Mr Ferrari has committed a crime but, | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
Michael, has the information behind this come from News Corp and if so | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
what do you think is going on within that organisation? And I a | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
apologise, I thought Mr Ferrari worked for the Sun. I used to. | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
Clearly this is coming from inside News Corp, but I'll tell you from | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
the American side, what is going on inside this company is that | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
virtually the entire American operation has had it with the Brits. | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
There is no up side that they can say everybody but Rupert himself, | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
that they can see in maintaining the British operation here. The | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
British operation, from every point of view within News Corp is poison | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
and it will not be rehabilitated. Nobody believes that. They will see | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
it now purely as downside and their approach now, which is different | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
from the past number of years, is to say let it all out. Let these | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
guys sink or swim on the basis of their own performance and their own | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
behaviour. A swamp that needs to be drained. That is what Trevor | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
Kavanagh took on and the implication of what was said there. | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
I thought Trevor's piece was fantastic and I cheered every part. | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
I understand that murder murder murder is still very well thought | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
towards the Sun. He enjoys the Sun but BSkyB is the jewel in the crown. | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
But there is a distinction there. Remember, BSkyB is a separate | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
company which I think they're going to have problems there, but that's | :30:46. | :30:54. | |
a separate company. Right now I'm looking at the subsidiary stkwigs, | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
which is News International. swamp that needs to be drained. Is | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
that the view you have of the Sun? If the evidence shows there have bs | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
mass payments to the police, inappropriate payments and evidence | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
has been destroyed then it might be that I adopt that metaphor, but | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
with all of these things you have to be careful that you wait for the | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
charges and deal with these things forensically. In terms of evidence. | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
I think why the police went there in the morning is that in the same | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
organisation, evidence has been destroyed. We've had to go to court | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
on behalf of clients and we've had admissions in the last year from | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
the police that they didn't do enough. And it's been like getting | :31:38. | :31:47. | |
blood out of a stone, trying to find e-mails. Going through a | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
child's pyjama draw? Look, the Sun have made a lot of money on the | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
private information of others that they have published. And so in | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
Kavanagh's article...That's Jealousy. This is nothing to do | :32:04. | :32:13. | |
with jealousy. When hypocrites expose hypocrites. It's payback. | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
it's not payback, it's them being treated like everybody else. Forget | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
the reason, just look at what's going on here. You might as well | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
face this. You might as well begin to judge what's going to happen in | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
the future on the basis of what's happening now. What is the reality? | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
The reality is that the company itself is turning over evidence | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
which the police are acting on. Now that would indicate to me that | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
things are probably pretty bad. You have the company and the police on | :32:44. | :32:52. | |
the same page. Yes, the Sun is the odd man out. I would say the Sun is | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
secured, whether for whatever reasons and they can be debated, | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
but I think what you are looking at here is a serious situation. I | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
don't think the Sun is going to recover. OK, the Sun is secured? | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
It's in huge trouble. Rupert Murdoch is here, I don't think | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
he'll close it. Would you weep if the Sun were to close? Yes, I would. | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
I'd be very upset. Now, let me. Hold on a minute, I want to hear | :33:25. | :33:32. | |
what Charlotte has to say. Was that irony? No, it wasn't. When the News | :33:32. | :33:39. | |
of the World closed I got a message and I sent a message saying "are | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
you having a joke. This can't be true." I didn't want that to happen. | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
I wanted them to change. Is Rupert Murdoch actually in charge then is | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
he the one who will decide whether the sun season stays or goes? | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
think that's the crux of this and I don't think he is in charge, not | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
the way he has been in charge for the 60 years he's run this company. | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
I think the pressures on him in the US are enormous. Greater than | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
they've ever been and I think there are personalities within the | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
company that are nearly as strong as Rupert at this point. And Rupert | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
will be next month 81 by the way. So I think he is fading. I think | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
that he cannot defend this, his sentimental love any more. And I | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
think that he is here and the company, his American executives -- | :34:33. | :34:40. | |
and some who - and some who will be here with him are here to figure | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
out what to do. And the solution I think in the Guardian is the best | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
alternative they have, which is to sell the Sun, take that money. Put | :34:49. | :34:56. | |
it into a trust for the Times and the Sunday Times and leave Britain | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
with his head held up. Thank you very much. A year after the Arab | :35:02. | :35:10. | |
Spring we have a series of films this week. Firstly, we are in Egypt | :35:10. | :35:18. | |
whose revolution was often symbolised by young women. A year | :35:18. | :35:25. | |
later, where did the dreams go? Tahrir Square has lost the drama | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
and the crowds. Recent demonstrations have moved on to | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
outside individual ministries in the city. Leaving here a forlorn | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
scene of abandonment and broken dreams for women. A far cry from | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
the early days when the women of Egypt defied the stereotype and | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
stood shoulder-to-shoulder in support of the revolution. But from | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
the beginning this was deemed unacceptable by those who were and | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
still are in charge. TRANSLATION: had been in the city since January | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
25th because I wanted to bring about all the aims of the | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
revolution. A new constitution and see Hosni Mubarak put on trial | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
along with others in the ministry. On March 9, the Army attacked a | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
group of women, including Samira, outside the Kentucky Fried Chicken | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
on the edge of the square. They were dragged by their hair, | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
handcuffed to the railings and taken to the military prison and | :36:28. | :36:37. | |
beaten and tortured. Samira says some died and a woman doctor | :36:37. | :36:44. | |
carried out virjinty tests on those who-sur- vived. She told me to take | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
off my clothes and carried out the test in front of the soldiers. It | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
humiliated me. I had gone to the square to call for freedom and they | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
were making me pay the price. was to get worse. TRANSLATION: | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
woman then said, the military officer in charge wants to test you | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
himself. I was made to strip again. This was sexual abuse. If a man | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
forces you to take your clothes off and puts his hand up into your | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
private area and leaves it there for five minutes, this is sexual | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
abuse. What do you think they were trying to tell you and the others | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
by treating you in this way? If you take to the streets in the name of | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
revolution or call for freedom or social justice they were telling us | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
we will violate your honour. Using a bizarre kind of logic, the Army | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
later admitted they had orderrd the test because men and women had been | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
in the square together. The Army didn't want to be blamed for any | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
woman who might have lost her virginity in the square, in a | :37:57. | :38:04. | |
country where a women not to be a virgin before marriage can lose her | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
life. Samira is the only one to have taken the matter to court and | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
to have returned to Tahrir Square. None of the other women have been | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
seen her again. As you can see, very few women are here now. Nine | :38:19. | :38:26. | |
months later, the scandal of the virginity testing was matched only | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
by the savage woman whose clothes were important back to reveal her | :38:32. | :38:40. | |
bra. It was suggested she was a religious Conservative and men and | :38:40. | :38:49. | |
women marched in the streets in outrage. Hadir was one of those who | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
protested and officers asked her to meet a Major General nearby in a | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
Government building. She agreed. TRANSLATION: They pushed into into | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
a room which turned out to be a torture room. There were already | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
girls inside who were being beaten and violated. The officers were | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
using their sticks to brutally beat us and they were enjoying what they | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
were doing and asked us, "What hurts the most?" it was clear they | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
were targeting girls more than anyone else to make us afraid and | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
because they wanted to make men in the square feel humiliated and | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
defeated for being unable to protect us. Women may have been | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
frightened into taking a lower profile in the square, but north of | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
Cairo, hodia, a 43-year-old doctor and mother of four, is being mobbed | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
like a popstar. The newly elected MP for the Muslim Brotherhood, is | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
going on a walk about in her new constituency in the Egyptian delta. | :39:59. | :40:06. | |
Why do they like you so much. "I was born here, she explains and | :40:06. | :40:13. | |
people know and like me. She'll fight for our rights. Adding that | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
their last MP made promises but did nothing. Hodia is a respected local | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
doctor, but she is also reaping the benefit of what the Muslim | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
Brotherhood was doing at a local level, building up their support | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
during the Mubarak years. They built hospitals, sheltered the | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
orphans and handed out food to the poor. Transtran I know she's able | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
to do a lot. Her party suffered in the past. Now they should be given | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
a chance. I hope she will work to make this country better. But the | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
Muslim Brotherhood is known as the party that expects women to dress | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
modestly and preferrably stay at home. But will she fight for | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
women's rights? TRANSLATION: From now on I believe that we will see | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
change. We will see the start of real democracy here in Egypt in a | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
way that allows all citizens, including women to join in, knowing | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
that the new politics is uncorrupted and based on rights for | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
all. Therefore I think that the participation of women and their | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
impact in the Parliament in the coming period will be completely | :41:26. | :41:35. | |
different. She's so genuine and reassuring you want to hug her. But, | :41:35. | :41:42. | |
as a woman MP, she is part of a tiny minority. Only nine women were | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
elected to sit in the 508-seat Parliament, which is dominated by | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
their bearded colleagues. More than 70% of the seats are held by the | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
Muslim Brotherhood and by the more hard- line Salafi Party. Ironically, | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
there were more women here during the Mubarak era when women had a | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
quota of 64 seats. The Islamic parties are in charge in Egypt | :42:10. | :42:19. | |
today. Which makes Bouthaina Kamel, a former television presenter, an | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
unlikely candidate in the next press tensionial elections. We | :42:23. | :42:29. | |
caught up with her on the election trail. She is standing, she says | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
because she wants to give women an idea of one day where they might go. | :42:36. | :42:44. | |
But she knows a non- scarf-wearing candidate doesn't stand a chance. | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
And the votes only show that women in Egypt don't vote for women. | :42:48. | :42:55. | |
Women make up 60% of Egypt society and the percentage of literacy in | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
women is 07%. It is said that men and women don't know how to vote | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
and the number of female candidate its was very low. Beside, all the | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
political alliances have an Islamic bias which is determined to lower | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
the status of women. A number of constitutional reforms have been | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
created without a single woman on it. Do the more secular women of | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
Egypt have reason to the fearful? I asked the spokesman for the Salafi | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
Party, but he wanted to talk about the religious rights of women, | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
those who completely cover themselves. TRANSLATION: What about | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
the woman who wears the hib yab, who has been so discriminated in | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
the past who was prevented from entering university or being on the | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
teaching staff. Also they prospect' allowed to work in television. In | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
medical professions they suffered systematic persecution. In this | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
Parliament no-one will be forced into anything but we now have a | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
greater chance to advise women of the rules of our religion, such as | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
wearing a headscarf. Is Egypt about to become an Iran or Saudi Arabia | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
in its treatment of women? No-one knows quite what to expect when the | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
new Government is due to take over in the summer, but some women are | :44:29. | :44:39. | |
nervous. In axe Alexandra, Egypt's second city, Aida Noureldin, a | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
lawyer is taking radical action. She is setting up another | :44:42. | :44:48. | |
Parliament. TRANSLATION: Women were just used as voting blocks in these | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
last elections and we do not have any women from Alexandra in the new | :44:53. | :45:00. | |
Parliament. So we decided to create a parallel Parliament, which will | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
consist of mostly women and some men and youth, in order to share | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
the national responsibility with the members of the official | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
Parliament. Andlets to keep an eye on what they -- and also to keep an | :45:13. | :45:20. | |
eye on what they do. At the first meeting of the working party of the | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
so-called parallel Parliament, the woman in the skhraver could be | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
forgiven for ask, "Who is going to listen to us?" the fear is no-one. | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
But they conclude it will be good pictures. We'll be in a better | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
position to field candidates for the next Parliament, they say, | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
whenever that might be. Many women here are being asked to wait for | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
what they had hoped would be the rewards of their revolution. Not | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
least the women in the square who complain that they got beaten up, | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
just like the men. And it's not fair that they should be sent back | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
home. But women like Samira, who is still fighting her court case | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
against the army officer who carried out the virginity test says | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
the battle is not lost yet. TRANSLATION: The Army and the | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
Muslim Brotherhood are in control here and the reason why women | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
weren't elected is because the revolution isn't over. It's still | :46:21. | :46:30. | |
going on. Sue Lloyd Roberts reporting. While we've been on air | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
we've had news that the ratings agency, have put France on a | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
negative outlook. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has released a | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
statement saying this is a reality check for anyone who thinks Britain | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
can duck confronting its debts. Stephanie is on the phone. How | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
significant is this? It's obviously not welcome for the Government. And | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
it shows you can have a shadow hang nk over your triple A rating if | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
your economy is not growing fast enough. That's one of the things | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
Moodies has highlighted in this assessment. But I should say it's | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
not a downgrade and they haven't put us on negative watch which | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
would be a 50% chance that the UK would lose its A triple A in the | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
future. It means there's a roughly one in three chance of losing the | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
triple A in the next few months. And France has had the same | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
treatment. There are nine countries that Moodies have reassess. Three | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
of them, Austria, the UK and France have triple As. And others, like | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
Spain and Portugal have actually been downgraded. So we've not been | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
singled out, but it is interesting we've been included in that group, | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
because in the past when the countries have been looked at the | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
UK was not included. They've not thought we would be directly | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
included in what is going on in the euro zone. Thank you very much. | :48:10. | :48:19. | |
I'll be back with more of this I'll be back with more of this | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
tomorrow, good night. Good evening. Mild north-westerly | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
winds off the Atlantic will keep temperatures up through the night. | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
Drizzle in the far north of Scotland and damp patches in the | :48:35. | :48:42. | |
south-east but elsewhere dry. And tomorrow, hazy sunshine around. One | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
or two showers into Norfolk and Suffolk, but most areas will | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
continue with sunshine after a damp start. | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
Eight or nine degrees possible in Wales where you're sheltered from | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
the wind but the wind will bring patchy Wales across the far north | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
during the afternoon. Also showers in Northern Ireland, but the | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
southern areas will stay drier and brighter. It turns showery across | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
western Scotland during the day. Tuesday in Wednesday, not a huge | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
amount of changes, Belfast is reporting drizzle on Wednesday, an | :49:23. | :49:29. |