13/02/2012 Newsnight


13/02/2012

Paul Mason at the heart of the Greek riots. Is The Sun newspaper at war with itself? And sexual abuse of protestors in Egypt. With Gavin Esler.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 13/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Disorder, default, devastation, just days for Greece to convince

:00:14.:00:19.

creditors this time it will make austerity stick. With riots on the

:00:19.:00:23.

streets and unease and rebellions in Parliament, four years of

:00:23.:00:28.

recession and hardship have taken their toll. Paul Mason is there.

:00:28.:00:32.

There's been two years of this and no sign of it letting up. The

:00:32.:00:37.

question now is given that the politicians don't really believe in

:00:37.:00:43.

the austerity, and the Greek people don't believe in it either, it work

:00:43.:00:48.

and can Greek society holding to together? Is Germany saving Greece

:00:48.:00:54.

from ruin or making the suffering worse? And is the Sun going down?

:00:54.:01:01.

One of its leading writers says there's a witch-hunt against Sun

:01:01.:01:05.

journalists. And Sue Lloyd Roberts asks Egyptian

:01:05.:01:11.

women about the sexual abuse many experienced during the Arab Spring.

:01:11.:01:17.

TRANSLATION: If a man forces you to take your clothes off and puts his

:01:17.:01:22.

hand up into your private area, and lives it there for five minutes,

:01:22.:01:29.

this is sexual aggression. I felt utterly defeated.

:01:29.:01:34.

Good evening. In the Vietnam War an American officer is supposed to

:01:34.:01:37.

have said that his troops had to destroy a village in order to save

:01:37.:01:41.

it. You might think something similar in happening right now in

:01:41.:01:45.

Greece. In order to qualify for more funds to pay its debts by

:01:45.:01:50.

March 20th, Greece has had to introduce the toughest austerity

:01:50.:01:55.

programme in Europe since World War II. It's produced violence on the

:01:55.:02:00.

streets. In Germany, officials mutter about the bottomless pit of

:02:00.:02:07.

Greek debts and the devastation that a disorderly unwrapping would

:02:07.:02:11.

cause. Here is Paul Mason in Athens. Last night, the Greek Parliament

:02:12.:02:19.

was asked to look into the abyss, to choose between rejecting

:02:19.:02:23.

austerity, with probable default, probable exit from the euro or

:02:23.:02:30.

implementing austerity as demanded by the EU. And 101 out of 300 MPs

:02:30.:02:35.

said they prefer the abyss. They either didn't turn up to vote or

:02:35.:02:41.

voted against the two main parties each had to expel 20 of their own

:02:41.:02:45.

MPs. A third of the coalition party has left the coalition. The

:02:45.:02:50.

majority passed the austerity measure. That should pave the way,

:02:50.:02:54.

starting on Wednesday, for the European Union begin to write off

:02:54.:03:00.

100 billion euros of Greek debt. But meanwhile, in the parallel

:03:00.:03:04.

universe that starts at the Greek Parliament, there was another Greek

:03:04.:03:09.

reality. And that was the people. Small business people, workers, and

:03:09.:03:12.

young people facing 20% unemployment who had had enough,

:03:12.:03:20.

and they, last night, had their say. As I found out.

:03:20.:03:29.

It It was supposed to be one last, big demonstration against austerity.

:03:29.:03:34.

Workers facing wage cuts, pensioners facing hardship, a lot

:03:34.:03:44.
:03:44.:03:45.

of people facing an uncertain future. But as dusk fell, the

:03:45.:03:55.
:03:55.:03:56.

trouble began. Tens of thousands of people found themselves on streets

:03:56.:04:05.

filled with tear gas and fires. And at the front, the minority who

:04:05.:04:11.

had come to fight got what they wanted.

:04:11.:04:20.

The police fought into the night. Months of frustration were released.

:04:20.:04:25.

The police made no attempt to control the streets, so the

:04:25.:04:31.

firebombers had, for some time, free rein. There's been two years

:04:31.:04:35.

of this and no sign of it letting up. The question now is, given that

:04:35.:04:38.

the politicians don't really believe in the austerity and the

:04:38.:04:43.

Greek people don't believe in it either, can it work and can Greek

:04:43.:04:51.

society hold together? 45 buildings were burnt, including this historic

:04:51.:04:59.

cinema. 130 people were arrested. In Parliament, Prime Minister,

:04:59.:05:03.

Lucas Papademos, got a majority for the new austerity package, but both

:05:03.:05:08.

of the major parties had to expel 20 MPs each who opposed the bill.

:05:08.:05:14.

And this morning, Antonis Samaras, who is likely to be the next Prime

:05:14.:05:17.

Minister, announced he would like to containing change and

:05:17.:05:22.

renegotiate the agreement. After last night, how long can Greece

:05:22.:05:27.

last without an election. Nobody can govern a democratic country

:05:27.:05:32.

without the people. I believe the elections are necessary. The

:05:32.:05:35.

decision making is necessary in order to have our citizens with us

:05:35.:05:42.

and not against us. We, the politicians, we have to be more

:05:42.:05:47.

sensitive and more responsible. We have to speak clear and honestly to

:05:47.:05:51.

the people. Whatever last night's vote achieved

:05:51.:05:57.

it was not closure. Greeks are shell shocked at the damage. Shell

:05:57.:06:03.

shocked at the scale of the austerity they just voted for. And

:06:03.:06:08.

trust in the political system is, for many, draining away.

:06:08.:06:13.

Joining me now, live from Athens is Paul. How quickly did the EU have

:06:13.:06:17.

to come up with a second detail out? Well, it starts effectively on

:06:17.:06:21.

Wednesday. But I think it's the beginning of March that we're

:06:21.:06:25.

looking at. A window at the beginning of March before 20th,

:06:25.:06:32.

when the so called PSI, the private sector gets involved. One Greek

:06:32.:06:37.

paper is reporting that 73% of the value of the loans gets written off

:06:37.:06:45.

and Greece gets allowed to have its debt reduced to only 125% of GDP,

:06:45.:06:51.

as opposed to 120, which is the plan, by 2020. But for most people

:06:51.:06:56.

this is academic. What I've heard since I've been here is political

:06:56.:06:59.

operators on all sides of the Parliament saying, in the first

:06:59.:07:04.

bailout we tried to sell it to people on the grounds that it would

:07:04.:07:07.

work and we'd stabilise ourselves and the economy would come back.

:07:07.:07:11.

Now, we're selling it to people on the idea that the alternative is

:07:12.:07:15.

disaster and doom. Very few people are prepared to go out and say,

:07:15.:07:20.

"And it will work" and that's because when you look at the

:07:20.:07:24.

dynamics of this country, few restaurants while I've been here

:07:24.:07:29.

with will take credit cards. They want cash. They'll give you a

:07:29.:07:35.

receipt, but they will not take plastic. And slowly but surely,

:07:35.:07:42.

cash, bank deposits are leaking out of the economy and it juz does not

:07:42.:07:46.

-- just does not look like this can turn itself around. And some of the

:07:46.:07:51.

people on the streets were not radical radbles, they are voters.

:07:51.:07:56.

In an election they will want to have their say with their

:07:56.:08:00.

candidates. They will place pressure on the candidates which

:08:00.:08:04.

the European Union will find inconvenient. So what the European

:08:04.:08:10.

Union now has to judge is whether the political system. I'm not

:08:10.:08:15.

talking about it fragmenting and falling apart, but simply

:08:15.:08:19.

delivering what they've just voted on. If they can't do that, that's

:08:19.:08:26.

key for the leadership as the euro approaches the technicalities of

:08:26.:08:33.

giving Greece 130 billion euros. Thank you very much. I'm joined by

:08:33.:08:43.

geest's Finance Minister last summer, Giorgios Papaconstantinou,

:08:43.:08:49.

and Costas Lapavitsas and Christian Schulz. Listening to that, it's

:08:49.:08:53.

clear many people don't want the austerity and many politicians

:08:53.:08:57.

don't think it can work, so who are you doing this for? We're doing it

:08:57.:09:00.

for the country and the citizens obviously. It's been an extremely

:09:00.:09:04.

tough two years. There is no question that people are hurting.

:09:05.:09:10.

Unemployment is at a record level, wages and pensions have been cut,

:09:10.:09:14.

taxes have opinion been raised so it's no surprise that people are

:09:14.:09:19.

looking at the middle of the recession and its worst point and

:09:19.:09:24.

cannot see the exit. And what this new programme is supposed to

:09:24.:09:29.

deliver is to turn the page, to show that confidence can return and

:09:29.:09:34.

that we can put all this behind us and slowly but surely go back on a

:09:35.:09:39.

path of sustainable growth. But it is very clear we were not on such a

:09:39.:09:43.

path before. Indeed, but you have riots in the streets. Within a

:09:44.:09:48.

couple of months you could have elections which could throw all the

:09:48.:09:54.

existing government out and there are those who think this is the

:09:54.:09:57.

insincere acceptance of the impossible. You know you really

:09:57.:10:02.

can't do it? You know, it's easy to look at the riots and say this

:10:02.:10:05.

represents a situation. The demonstrations are, of course, an

:10:05.:10:10.

indication of how people feel. The riots themselves are done by a very

:10:10.:10:14.

small minority of extremists, and plain criminals. It is very clear

:10:14.:10:19.

that at the end of two years of austerity it is not easy to

:10:19.:10:24.

convince people. The question is, is there an alternative to this? Is

:10:24.:10:30.

there something else that we can do. You could leave the eurozone. That

:10:30.:10:35.

would be an alternative? Yes, at a disastrous cost for the country and

:10:35.:10:41.

for the citizens. It is very easy for people to say that. Let me tell

:10:41.:10:45.

you, in very brief term, what would have happened this morning in

:10:45.:10:50.

Greece if the Parliament had voted a different way last night. If it

:10:50.:10:57.

had voted "no", rather than "yes". This morning, around 9.30, there

:10:57.:11:02.

would have been queues at the banks and the Government would have had

:11:02.:11:06.

to close down the banks and Greece would be an island unable to trade

:11:06.:11:12.

with the rest of the world, unable to pay salaries and pensions. It

:11:12.:11:16.

would be a total unmitigated disaster. Those who think there is

:11:16.:11:21.

a way to get out of the euro that is painless and does not shut down

:11:21.:11:25.

the banking system are either deluding themselves or playing a

:11:25.:11:31.

very dangerous game with the Greek people. This is the least worst

:11:31.:11:35.

option, is that an argument? Not at all. I think what is happening to

:11:35.:11:40.

Greece at the moment is a disgrace. There is real despair and poverty

:11:40.:11:45.

in the country and that has been imposed on it by its so-called

:11:45.:11:49.

allies and partners. This is the first thing that has to be said.

:11:49.:11:55.

This has not got a snowball's chance in hell of working. It is

:11:55.:12:00.

heading towards the exit from the Europe and towards bankruptcy in a

:12:00.:12:05.

chaotic way. This is what we've got in front of us, and the argument is

:12:05.:12:09.

among many people in Greece and elsewhere, it is the Greeks who

:12:09.:12:13.

should do that, they should take charge of their own future

:12:13.:12:18.

deliberately and with a plan. is your reaction to that, minister?

:12:18.:12:26.

Yes, what I hear is a collection of slogans, but I hear no answer to

:12:26.:12:30.

the scenario which I -- the nightmare scenario that I just

:12:30.:12:36.

painted for you. Of course Greece should take care of itself and take

:12:36.:12:40.

its own destiny in hand. But when you have a country that year upon

:12:40.:12:45.

year was spending more than it had. That was not really producing and

:12:45.:12:50.

got a huge external deficit and found itself with a debt of 360

:12:50.:12:57.

billion euro then it is very easy to say, "Let's just forget this

:12:57.:13:04.

debt." We can't survive if they somehow, by ourselves decide not to

:13:04.:13:10.

pay our creditors. We do not have a surplus to have more revenue than

:13:10.:13:14.

expenditure. Forgive me for interrupting, but if you do all

:13:14.:13:20.

these good things that you say you feel you have to do by 2020, after

:13:20.:13:27.

another eight years of austerity, your debt will still be 125% of GDP

:13:27.:13:32.

and that in itself may not be payable? Which is about the level

:13:32.:13:37.

of Italy and Ireland and certainly less than the level of Japan. 120%

:13:37.:13:42.

is too high and hopefully we will be able to grow fast, but again on

:13:42.:13:46.

a more sustainable footing and reduce it faster than that. But

:13:46.:13:53.

let's remember what happened in these last two years. In these last

:13:53.:14:00.

two years we reduced it by a massive 20 billion because people

:14:00.:14:06.

took serious sacrifices. Can we really throw all this out and to

:14:06.:14:09.

claw back some of the competitiveness that was lost in

:14:09.:14:14.

the last ten years, do we just throw it out of the window. How do

:14:14.:14:19.

you buy into the argument that this is doable and if so, how much pain

:14:20.:14:23.

is Greece going to have to accept, given that many think in Greece

:14:23.:14:30.

they are being bullied into this by German and other countries? I agree

:14:30.:14:33.

that we should not look at Greece in a deep recession after four

:14:33.:14:38.

years of recession and say this is the way Greece and this is how it

:14:38.:14:43.

will always be. The Germans shouldn't do that, the ones that

:14:43.:14:48.

say at the moment that Greece might be a bottomless pit and the Greeks

:14:48.:14:57.

and the markets shouldn't do that. The level doesn't matter of GDP,

:14:57.:15:03.

what matters is the direction the country is taken in. If the

:15:03.:15:07.

trajectory of the country is 100% it is a different view we have to

:15:07.:15:14.

take. But a German MP said today that a Greek exit from the eurozone

:15:14.:15:19.

would not be the end of the world. That is a very dangerous feeling

:15:19.:15:25.

that is spreading in some parts of the Conservative Party in Germany,

:15:25.:15:30.

that the firewalls are high enough now that a Greek exit wouldn't be a

:15:30.:15:37.

problem any more, but we doubt this is the case. Greece has had 14%

:15:37.:15:43.

contraction of GDP in the last two or three years. It has 21%

:15:43.:15:46.

unemployment and this plan aims for primary surpluses of the Government

:15:46.:15:52.

next year and the year after that. Greece has no business going for

:15:52.:15:56.

primary surpluses right now. This is entirely the wrong economic

:15:56.:16:01.

policy. The people who designed this need to go back to schedule.

:16:01.:16:06.

But with a Greek election in April, do you think it will be rejected by

:16:07.:16:12.

the people? I think the Greek political system in its entirety is

:16:12.:16:17.

competely discredited right now. This is the end of an era in Greece

:16:17.:16:22.

and I don't know if people realise this, but this is where we are. The

:16:22.:16:26.

party that's run Greece is completely finished. The party on

:16:26.:16:32.

the right is in disarray because of how it voted yesterday. I think a

:16:32.:16:35.

new configuration is emerging and the thing that is making all the

:16:35.:16:38.

difference is what is happening on the ground. And what people want is

:16:38.:16:44.

an end to this. They want an end to this humiliation and want a new

:16:45.:16:49.

policy. In terms of the overall future of Greek democracy is that

:16:49.:16:53.

something you worry about. I don't mean specifically that your party

:16:53.:16:59.

is low in the opinion polls, but the whole future 6 Greek democracy

:16:59.:17:04.

is up in the air? Look, we're paying the price of being the

:17:04.:17:07.

firefighters and rather the people turning on the ones who put the

:17:08.:17:12.

fire in the first place, they're turning on the firefighters who are

:17:12.:17:15.

trying to do something about the situation. We're paying a political

:17:15.:17:19.

price. That is what politics is about. I am worried about the

:17:19.:17:24.

future democrats democracy because I am worried about the rising of

:17:24.:17:30.

the extremes. I am worried when a listen to people like Mr Lapavitsas

:17:30.:17:34.

who try to say it's a painless way of getting rid of all the debt upon

:17:34.:17:40.

our country and be able, the next day, come back to the ways as we

:17:40.:17:45.

used to keep going. In other words by spending, but now there will be

:17:45.:17:51.

nobody willing to lend us the money to continue spending. We were a

:17:51.:17:56.

society that was over consuming, who was buying from abroad and did

:17:56.:18:00.

not have a productive base. And we did not restructure our economy in

:18:00.:18:05.

time. This programme is not just about austerity it is about deep

:18:05.:18:10.

reforms reforming the state and the Social Services reforming the tax

:18:10.:18:13.

system so people pay and not evading taxes. This is what it is

:18:14.:18:19.

about. It is a mistake to reduce this programme simply into

:18:19.:18:22.

reductions in expenditure in the public sector. This is part of it,

:18:22.:18:29.

but it's not the whole thing. tell you one thing that really

:18:29.:18:34.

infuriates Greeks right now, precisely the class of politicians

:18:34.:18:38.

that brought this country to this pass, are wagging their fingers and

:18:38.:18:44.

telling people what to do now. It cannot be done. Greece needs a new

:18:44.:18:47.

political line and new organisations. No-one said that

:18:47.:18:52.

getting out of the euro or defaulting on the debt, which

:18:52.:18:57.

actually the country is doing by itself, is going to be easy. But

:18:57.:19:02.

looking at the policy adopted right now is guaranteed to end up in

:19:02.:19:07.

failure. A quick word on that? don't think it's guaranteed to end

:19:07.:19:12.

up in failure. I think Greece is taking the right steps, it just got

:19:12.:19:16.

unlucky. Last year exports were rising but then the mistake was

:19:16.:19:21.

made to restructure Greek debt and there by destroy all the confidence

:19:21.:19:26.

people had been building into a recovery of the country. Now, if

:19:26.:19:30.

Greece were to exit the country we would make the same mistake and

:19:31.:19:36.

spread that mistake to other countries. A final word? I do not

:19:36.:19:40.

my country to become North Korea in Europe. I want my country to become

:19:40.:19:43.

a normal country and I believe we have every possibility to do so. We

:19:43.:19:47.

have the people and the productive resources and there's nothing

:19:47.:19:53.

different in the Greek DNA than that in the rest of Europe. We had

:19:53.:19:57.

a political class that failed the country, but let's not lump

:19:57.:20:01.

everybody together because those who tried to make amends in the

:20:01.:20:07.

last few years are being lumped together with those who created the

:20:07.:20:11.

mess in the future. It's about values and what kind of democracy

:20:11.:20:18.

we want and about presentation and not about a clientistic system of

:20:18.:20:23.

governance. This is what it is about. But it's certainly not about

:20:23.:20:27.

far-fetched ideas that claim that we can somehow get out of this

:20:27.:20:32.

situation without hard work and sacrifices in as just a way as

:20:33.:20:42.
:20:43.:20:44.

possible. Thank you all very much. In typically robust form, the Sun

:20:44.:20:48.

journalist, Trevor Kavanagh lashed out at the police. Senior figures

:20:48.:20:52.

at the Sun have been questioned after information which came

:20:52.:20:57.

apparently from inside the parent company. Is this global media

:20:57.:21:01.

empire now at war with itself or is it a witch hunt and a threat to

:21:01.:21:07.

press freedom as Mr Arrive nar said? This feels like a witch-hunt.

:21:07.:21:12.

There's a mass hysteria going on now. This is going to be a great

:21:12.:21:18.

cloud hanging over News Corp for the next few years. The Sun came

:21:18.:21:24.

out with heart-felt pleas for justice, for the Sun.

:21:24.:21:34.
:21:34.:21:37.

The words of Trevor Kavanagh, its senior writer.. Whether we're from

:21:37.:21:41.

red-top tabloids or TV programmes late at night on the BBC,

:21:41.:21:47.

journalists have a tendency to self-mythologyise. We're all

:21:47.:21:52.

legends in our own lunchtime. And the Sun say the wave of arrests at

:21:52.:21:56.

their own newspaper are now threatening the freedom of the

:21:56.:22:03.

press. I Why do we have to have dawn raids and 171 police mn on the

:22:03.:22:11.

case. It's complete overkill. many policemen should be involved?

:22:11.:22:15.

Not 171. And if this is about whether our soldiers had the right

:22:15.:22:20.

equipment I'd say it was a public offence here, just as the MPs

:22:20.:22:24.

expenses. Others who have taken on News International say without

:22:24.:22:29.

knowing what is being investigated it is far too early to claim a

:22:29.:22:35.

public offence. I don't think it's a witch-hunt. I know why it might

:22:35.:22:39.

be perceived as such, but if the police think there is a group of

:22:39.:22:44.

witches somewhere they have to hunt for them. They can't decide to

:22:44.:22:48.

interview some but not others, they have to look for the whole lot of

:22:48.:22:55.

people. But isn't it overkill when you have 120 police officers raided

:22:55.:23:01.

journalist's houses at dawn? It's a bit rich for the Sun to complain

:23:01.:23:09.

about dawn raids, they used to attend dawn raids on other people.

:23:09.:23:14.

Trevor Kavanagh said those arrested had been dropped in it, implicate

:23:14.:23:20.

the in alleged wrongdoing by the parent company, News Corp. A large

:23:20.:23:24.

number of extremely good journalists who have worked very

:23:24.:23:29.

loyally for the company for a very long time, as the company has

:23:29.:23:32.

announced itself, are often in police cells for a long period of

:23:32.:23:40.

time on evidence provided by the company. Shareholders at New corps

:23:40.:23:44.

are deeply concerned that the scandal in the British papers is

:23:44.:23:52.

now threatening Murdoch's entire show. America's foreign and corrupt

:23:52.:24:00.

picturess Act has had the FBI investigating for over six months.

:24:00.:24:03.

These investigations are broader in scope. We now have a different

:24:03.:24:07.

newspaper and part of the company that will be the focus of inquiry

:24:07.:24:12.

and we now have a much broad Erekat disagree of "foreign officials"

:24:12.:24:21.

that were allegedly the recipients of payments. Including some in the

:24:21.:24:26.

military. Last summer, Rupert Murdoch flew into the UK to give

:24:26.:24:35.

his endorsement to international's Rebekah Weighed. She then resigned.

:24:35.:24:41.

Those people hoping that the Sun will close down and go out of

:24:41.:24:45.

business should be careful what they wish for because without it

:24:45.:24:52.

there will be no Sunday papers because they subsidise it. We need

:24:52.:24:58.

a free and varied press in this country and the Sun is part of that.

:24:58.:25:02.

Sources in America say James Murdoch, Rupert's son, is

:25:02.:25:05.

increasingly unlikely to persuade shareholders their business could

:25:05.:25:12.

be safe in his hands and across the Murdoch media, law enforcement will

:25:12.:25:18.

want questions answered. They typically ask the where else

:25:18.:25:22.

question. In other words were payments like this occurring in our

:25:22.:25:27.

News Corp businesses or subsidiary areas, including all over the world.

:25:27.:25:31.

That's why inquiries like this can generally take several years.

:25:31.:25:35.

Another thing they will be asking is what did the executive officer

:25:35.:25:40.

know and when did they know it? Did they participate in any of the

:25:40.:25:45.

wrongdoing? Did they authorise any of the improper payments? Did they

:25:45.:25:49.

have knowledge of the impour payments but failed to put a stop

:25:49.:25:52.

to them, they're some of the questions that will be asked.

:25:52.:25:56.

Metropolitan Police tonight issued a statement saying no more than ten

:25:56.:26:01.

officers were used in the raids on journalists. They added that they

:26:01.:26:06.

don't believe that the level of resources on the inquiries is in

:26:06.:26:16.

any way dis proportionate to the task in hand. With me is Dominick

:26:16.:26:23.

Mohan and Charlotte Harris, and Michael Wolff who wrote biography

:26:23.:26:28.

of Rupert Murdoch. It's hardly a witch-hunt if the police follow the

:26:28.:26:34.

evidence and go where it leads and make an arrest if necessary.

:26:34.:26:39.

everything in proportion. Of course there probably has been some

:26:39.:26:43.

wrongdoing, but it is the way it is done. We now live in a country,

:26:43.:26:50.

where I can't believe and your listeners won't believe where Abu

:26:50.:26:56.

Qatada can walk free but the police are banging up the journalists. Ten

:26:56.:26:59.

officers per arrest. 15 police officers this weekend at a time

:26:59.:27:06.

where there are drugs going on. Do we really need 50 coppers? But even

:27:06.:27:14.

if Abu Qatada is a case that gets people worked up. This is

:27:14.:27:20.

proportionate? I'm proud to say I know one of them in his 60s. Do

:27:20.:27:26.

they think he will run off. This is ridiculous. It's serious overkill.

:27:26.:27:30.

I don't think that anyone was really going to run away and I

:27:31.:27:35.

agree that ten police officers did seem somewhat excessive. But I

:27:35.:27:39.

don't think that was the only point that the article that has caused

:27:39.:27:42.

all this discussion today was making. And it's quite interesting,

:27:42.:27:46.

because, of course, the Sun have never been particularly

:27:46.:27:53.

proportionate in themselves. that's an excuse, is it.

:27:53.:27:57.

necessary. But to an extent is it rich and interesting watching this

:27:57.:28:00.

shocked response. Of course the police have to follow up. That's

:28:00.:28:09.

very, very important. We spent six years. More police officer than

:28:09.:28:15.

investigated Lockerbie or Madeline McCann, or July 7th. This is a

:28:15.:28:19.

Murdoch smoke screen. This is classic Murdoch stuff. You're

:28:19.:28:24.

missing the entire point. Was there a crime, that's the only issue here.

:28:24.:28:27.

It doesn't really matter how many police officers are devoted to

:28:27.:28:34.

finding a crime if there was a crime. I agree. The crime. Are you

:28:34.:28:40.

guilty? Are you guilty? Michael, you're not listening. I'm saying of

:28:40.:28:45.

course if there is a crime there has to be an investigation. One at

:28:45.:28:54.

a time. One at a time. This is Murdoch stuff. Smoke screen. They

:28:54.:29:02.

pulled police officers off London 2012, beat can you justify that.

:29:02.:29:07.

don't think anybody thinks Mr Ferrari has committed a crime but,

:29:07.:29:11.

Michael, has the information behind this come from News Corp and if so

:29:11.:29:18.

what do you think is going on within that organisation? And I a

:29:18.:29:23.

apologise, I thought Mr Ferrari worked for the Sun. I used to.

:29:23.:29:27.

Clearly this is coming from inside News Corp, but I'll tell you from

:29:27.:29:31.

the American side, what is going on inside this company is that

:29:31.:29:35.

virtually the entire American operation has had it with the Brits.

:29:35.:29:41.

There is no up side that they can say everybody but Rupert himself,

:29:41.:29:46.

that they can see in maintaining the British operation here. The

:29:46.:29:51.

British operation, from every point of view within News Corp is poison

:29:51.:29:56.

and it will not be rehabilitated. Nobody believes that. They will see

:29:56.:30:00.

it now purely as downside and their approach now, which is different

:30:01.:30:07.

from the past number of years, is to say let it all out. Let these

:30:07.:30:12.

guys sink or swim on the basis of their own performance and their own

:30:12.:30:17.

behaviour. A swamp that needs to be drained. That is what Trevor

:30:17.:30:22.

Kavanagh took on and the implication of what was said there.

:30:22.:30:27.

I thought Trevor's piece was fantastic and I cheered every part.

:30:27.:30:30.

I understand that murder murder murder is still very well thought

:30:30.:30:37.

towards the Sun. He enjoys the Sun but BSkyB is the jewel in the crown.

:30:37.:30:43.

But there is a distinction there. Remember, BSkyB is a separate

:30:43.:30:46.

company which I think they're going to have problems there, but that's

:30:46.:30:54.

a separate company. Right now I'm looking at the subsidiary stkwigs,

:30:54.:30:58.

which is News International. swamp that needs to be drained. Is

:30:58.:31:04.

that the view you have of the Sun? If the evidence shows there have bs

:31:04.:31:08.

mass payments to the police, inappropriate payments and evidence

:31:08.:31:13.

has been destroyed then it might be that I adopt that metaphor, but

:31:13.:31:17.

with all of these things you have to be careful that you wait for the

:31:17.:31:21.

charges and deal with these things forensically. In terms of evidence.

:31:21.:31:26.

I think why the police went there in the morning is that in the same

:31:26.:31:30.

organisation, evidence has been destroyed. We've had to go to court

:31:30.:31:34.

on behalf of clients and we've had admissions in the last year from

:31:34.:31:38.

the police that they didn't do enough. And it's been like getting

:31:38.:31:47.

blood out of a stone, trying to find e-mails. Going through a

:31:47.:31:52.

child's pyjama draw? Look, the Sun have made a lot of money on the

:31:52.:31:59.

private information of others that they have published. And so in

:31:59.:32:04.

Kavanagh's article...That's Jealousy. This is nothing to do

:32:04.:32:13.

with jealousy. When hypocrites expose hypocrites. It's payback.

:32:13.:32:18.

it's not payback, it's them being treated like everybody else. Forget

:32:18.:32:23.

the reason, just look at what's going on here. You might as well

:32:23.:32:27.

face this. You might as well begin to judge what's going to happen in

:32:27.:32:31.

the future on the basis of what's happening now. What is the reality?

:32:31.:32:35.

The reality is that the company itself is turning over evidence

:32:35.:32:39.

which the police are acting on. Now that would indicate to me that

:32:39.:32:44.

things are probably pretty bad. You have the company and the police on

:32:44.:32:52.

the same page. Yes, the Sun is the odd man out. I would say the Sun is

:32:52.:32:56.

secured, whether for whatever reasons and they can be debated,

:32:56.:33:01.

but I think what you are looking at here is a serious situation. I

:33:01.:33:08.

don't think the Sun is going to recover. OK, the Sun is secured?

:33:08.:33:13.

It's in huge trouble. Rupert Murdoch is here, I don't think

:33:13.:33:20.

he'll close it. Would you weep if the Sun were to close? Yes, I would.

:33:20.:33:25.

I'd be very upset. Now, let me. Hold on a minute, I want to hear

:33:25.:33:32.

what Charlotte has to say. Was that irony? No, it wasn't. When the News

:33:32.:33:39.

of the World closed I got a message and I sent a message saying "are

:33:39.:33:44.

you having a joke. This can't be true." I didn't want that to happen.

:33:44.:33:48.

I wanted them to change. Is Rupert Murdoch actually in charge then is

:33:48.:33:53.

he the one who will decide whether the sun season stays or goes?

:33:53.:33:57.

think that's the crux of this and I don't think he is in charge, not

:33:57.:34:02.

the way he has been in charge for the 60 years he's run this company.

:34:02.:34:06.

I think the pressures on him in the US are enormous. Greater than

:34:06.:34:10.

they've ever been and I think there are personalities within the

:34:10.:34:14.

company that are nearly as strong as Rupert at this point. And Rupert

:34:14.:34:21.

will be next month 81 by the way. So I think he is fading. I think

:34:21.:34:27.

that he cannot defend this, his sentimental love any more. And I

:34:27.:34:33.

think that he is here and the company, his American executives --

:34:33.:34:40.

and some who - and some who will be here with him are here to figure

:34:40.:34:43.

out what to do. And the solution I think in the Guardian is the best

:34:43.:34:49.

alternative they have, which is to sell the Sun, take that money. Put

:34:49.:34:56.

it into a trust for the Times and the Sunday Times and leave Britain

:34:56.:35:02.

with his head held up. Thank you very much. A year after the Arab

:35:02.:35:10.

Spring we have a series of films this week. Firstly, we are in Egypt

:35:10.:35:18.

whose revolution was often symbolised by young women. A year

:35:18.:35:25.

later, where did the dreams go? Tahrir Square has lost the drama

:35:25.:35:29.

and the crowds. Recent demonstrations have moved on to

:35:29.:35:34.

outside individual ministries in the city. Leaving here a forlorn

:35:34.:35:39.

scene of abandonment and broken dreams for women. A far cry from

:35:39.:35:46.

the early days when the women of Egypt defied the stereotype and

:35:46.:35:51.

stood shoulder-to-shoulder in support of the revolution. But from

:35:51.:35:55.

the beginning this was deemed unacceptable by those who were and

:35:55.:36:01.

still are in charge. TRANSLATION: had been in the city since January

:36:01.:36:06.

25th because I wanted to bring about all the aims of the

:36:06.:36:09.

revolution. A new constitution and see Hosni Mubarak put on trial

:36:09.:36:15.

along with others in the ministry. On March 9, the Army attacked a

:36:15.:36:20.

group of women, including Samira, outside the Kentucky Fried Chicken

:36:20.:36:23.

on the edge of the square. They were dragged by their hair,

:36:23.:36:28.

handcuffed to the railings and taken to the military prison and

:36:28.:36:37.

beaten and tortured. Samira says some died and a woman doctor

:36:37.:36:44.

carried out virjinty tests on those who-sur- vived. She told me to take

:36:44.:36:50.

off my clothes and carried out the test in front of the soldiers. It

:36:50.:36:54.

humiliated me. I had gone to the square to call for freedom and they

:36:54.:36:59.

were making me pay the price. was to get worse. TRANSLATION:

:36:59.:37:04.

woman then said, the military officer in charge wants to test you

:37:04.:37:11.

himself. I was made to strip again. This was sexual abuse. If a man

:37:11.:37:16.

forces you to take your clothes off and puts his hand up into your

:37:16.:37:21.

private area and leaves it there for five minutes, this is sexual

:37:21.:37:25.

abuse. What do you think they were trying to tell you and the others

:37:25.:37:31.

by treating you in this way? If you take to the streets in the name of

:37:31.:37:35.

revolution or call for freedom or social justice they were telling us

:37:35.:37:41.

we will violate your honour. Using a bizarre kind of logic, the Army

:37:41.:37:46.

later admitted they had orderrd the test because men and women had been

:37:46.:37:51.

in the square together. The Army didn't want to be blamed for any

:37:51.:37:57.

woman who might have lost her virginity in the square, in a

:37:57.:38:04.

country where a women not to be a virgin before marriage can lose her

:38:04.:38:09.

life. Samira is the only one to have taken the matter to court and

:38:09.:38:13.

to have returned to Tahrir Square. None of the other women have been

:38:13.:38:19.

seen her again. As you can see, very few women are here now. Nine

:38:19.:38:26.

months later, the scandal of the virginity testing was matched only

:38:26.:38:32.

by the savage woman whose clothes were important back to reveal her

:38:32.:38:40.

bra. It was suggested she was a religious Conservative and men and

:38:40.:38:49.

women marched in the streets in outrage. Hadir was one of those who

:38:49.:38:55.

protested and officers asked her to meet a Major General nearby in a

:38:55.:39:00.

Government building. She agreed. TRANSLATION: They pushed into into

:39:00.:39:05.

a room which turned out to be a torture room. There were already

:39:05.:39:10.

girls inside who were being beaten and violated. The officers were

:39:10.:39:14.

using their sticks to brutally beat us and they were enjoying what they

:39:14.:39:21.

were doing and asked us, "What hurts the most?" it was clear they

:39:21.:39:24.

were targeting girls more than anyone else to make us afraid and

:39:25.:39:30.

because they wanted to make men in the square feel humiliated and

:39:30.:39:36.

defeated for being unable to protect us. Women may have been

:39:36.:39:41.

frightened into taking a lower profile in the square, but north of

:39:41.:39:48.

Cairo, hodia, a 43-year-old doctor and mother of four, is being mobbed

:39:48.:39:54.

like a popstar. The newly elected MP for the Muslim Brotherhood, is

:39:54.:39:59.

going on a walk about in her new constituency in the Egyptian delta.

:39:59.:40:06.

Why do they like you so much. "I was born here, she explains and

:40:06.:40:13.

people know and like me. She'll fight for our rights. Adding that

:40:13.:40:19.

their last MP made promises but did nothing. Hodia is a respected local

:40:19.:40:25.

doctor, but she is also reaping the benefit of what the Muslim

:40:25.:40:29.

Brotherhood was doing at a local level, building up their support

:40:29.:40:33.

during the Mubarak years. They built hospitals, sheltered the

:40:33.:40:39.

orphans and handed out food to the poor. Transtran I know she's able

:40:39.:40:45.

to do a lot. Her party suffered in the past. Now they should be given

:40:45.:40:50.

a chance. I hope she will work to make this country better. But the

:40:50.:40:56.

Muslim Brotherhood is known as the party that expects women to dress

:40:57.:41:02.

modestly and preferrably stay at home. But will she fight for

:41:02.:41:05.

women's rights? TRANSLATION: From now on I believe that we will see

:41:05.:41:10.

change. We will see the start of real democracy here in Egypt in a

:41:10.:41:15.

way that allows all citizens, including women to join in, knowing

:41:15.:41:19.

that the new politics is uncorrupted and based on rights for

:41:19.:41:23.

all. Therefore I think that the participation of women and their

:41:23.:41:26.

impact in the Parliament in the coming period will be completely

:41:26.:41:35.

different. She's so genuine and reassuring you want to hug her. But,

:41:35.:41:42.

as a woman MP, she is part of a tiny minority. Only nine women were

:41:42.:41:49.

elected to sit in the 508-seat Parliament, which is dominated by

:41:49.:41:53.

their bearded colleagues. More than 70% of the seats are held by the

:41:53.:41:59.

Muslim Brotherhood and by the more hard- line Salafi Party. Ironically,

:41:59.:42:04.

there were more women here during the Mubarak era when women had a

:42:04.:42:10.

quota of 64 seats. The Islamic parties are in charge in Egypt

:42:10.:42:19.

today. Which makes Bouthaina Kamel, a former television presenter, an

:42:19.:42:23.

unlikely candidate in the next press tensionial elections. We

:42:23.:42:29.

caught up with her on the election trail. She is standing, she says

:42:29.:42:36.

because she wants to give women an idea of one day where they might go.

:42:36.:42:44.

But she knows a non- scarf-wearing candidate doesn't stand a chance.

:42:44.:42:48.

And the votes only show that women in Egypt don't vote for women.

:42:48.:42:55.

Women make up 60% of Egypt society and the percentage of literacy in

:42:55.:43:00.

women is 07%. It is said that men and women don't know how to vote

:43:00.:43:07.

and the number of female candidate its was very low. Beside, all the

:43:07.:43:13.

political alliances have an Islamic bias which is determined to lower

:43:13.:43:18.

the status of women. A number of constitutional reforms have been

:43:18.:43:24.

created without a single woman on it. Do the more secular women of

:43:24.:43:31.

Egypt have reason to the fearful? I asked the spokesman for the Salafi

:43:31.:43:35.

Party, but he wanted to talk about the religious rights of women,

:43:35.:43:40.

those who completely cover themselves. TRANSLATION: What about

:43:40.:43:46.

the woman who wears the hib yab, who has been so discriminated in

:43:46.:43:51.

the past who was prevented from entering university or being on the

:43:51.:43:57.

teaching staff. Also they prospect' allowed to work in television. In

:43:57.:44:04.

medical professions they suffered systematic persecution. In this

:44:04.:44:09.

Parliament no-one will be forced into anything but we now have a

:44:09.:44:14.

greater chance to advise women of the rules of our religion, such as

:44:14.:44:19.

wearing a headscarf. Is Egypt about to become an Iran or Saudi Arabia

:44:19.:44:23.

in its treatment of women? No-one knows quite what to expect when the

:44:23.:44:29.

new Government is due to take over in the summer, but some women are

:44:29.:44:39.

nervous. In axe Alexandra, Egypt's second city, Aida Noureldin, a

:44:39.:44:42.

lawyer is taking radical action. She is setting up another

:44:42.:44:48.

Parliament. TRANSLATION: Women were just used as voting blocks in these

:44:48.:44:53.

last elections and we do not have any women from Alexandra in the new

:44:53.:45:00.

Parliament. So we decided to create a parallel Parliament, which will

:45:00.:45:04.

consist of mostly women and some men and youth, in order to share

:45:04.:45:07.

the national responsibility with the members of the official

:45:07.:45:13.

Parliament. Andlets to keep an eye on what they -- and also to keep an

:45:13.:45:20.

eye on what they do. At the first meeting of the working party of the

:45:20.:45:25.

so-called parallel Parliament, the woman in the skhraver could be

:45:25.:45:30.

forgiven for ask, "Who is going to listen to us?" the fear is no-one.

:45:30.:45:36.

But they conclude it will be good pictures. We'll be in a better

:45:36.:45:39.

position to field candidates for the next Parliament, they say,

:45:39.:45:43.

whenever that might be. Many women here are being asked to wait for

:45:43.:45:48.

what they had hoped would be the rewards of their revolution. Not

:45:48.:45:52.

least the women in the square who complain that they got beaten up,

:45:52.:45:57.

just like the men. And it's not fair that they should be sent back

:45:57.:46:03.

home. But women like Samira, who is still fighting her court case

:46:03.:46:07.

against the army officer who carried out the virginity test says

:46:07.:46:13.

the battle is not lost yet. TRANSLATION: The Army and the

:46:13.:46:17.

Muslim Brotherhood are in control here and the reason why women

:46:17.:46:21.

weren't elected is because the revolution isn't over. It's still

:46:21.:46:30.

going on. Sue Lloyd Roberts reporting. While we've been on air

:46:30.:46:38.

we've had news that the ratings agency, have put France on a

:46:38.:46:41.

negative outlook. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has released a

:46:41.:46:47.

statement saying this is a reality check for anyone who thinks Britain

:46:47.:46:51.

can duck confronting its debts. Stephanie is on the phone. How

:46:51.:46:56.

significant is this? It's obviously not welcome for the Government. And

:46:56.:47:03.

it shows you can have a shadow hang nk over your triple A rating if

:47:03.:47:08.

your economy is not growing fast enough. That's one of the things

:47:08.:47:12.

Moodies has highlighted in this assessment. But I should say it's

:47:12.:47:17.

not a downgrade and they haven't put us on negative watch which

:47:17.:47:24.

would be a 50% chance that the UK would lose its A triple A in the

:47:24.:47:30.

future. It means there's a roughly one in three chance of losing the

:47:30.:47:34.

triple A in the next few months. And France has had the same

:47:34.:47:40.

treatment. There are nine countries that Moodies have reassess. Three

:47:40.:47:47.

of them, Austria, the UK and France have triple As. And others, like

:47:47.:47:52.

Spain and Portugal have actually been downgraded. So we've not been

:47:52.:47:56.

singled out, but it is interesting we've been included in that group,

:47:56.:48:01.

because in the past when the countries have been looked at the

:48:01.:48:05.

UK was not included. They've not thought we would be directly

:48:05.:48:10.

included in what is going on in the euro zone. Thank you very much.

:48:10.:48:19.

I'll be back with more of this I'll be back with more of this

:48:19.:48:23.

tomorrow, good night. Good evening. Mild north-westerly

:48:23.:48:29.

winds off the Atlantic will keep temperatures up through the night.

:48:29.:48:35.

Drizzle in the far north of Scotland and damp patches in the

:48:35.:48:42.

south-east but elsewhere dry. And tomorrow, hazy sunshine around. One

:48:42.:48:47.

or two showers into Norfolk and Suffolk, but most areas will

:48:47.:48:51.

continue with sunshine after a damp start.

:48:51.:48:57.

Eight or nine degrees possible in Wales where you're sheltered from

:48:57.:49:03.

the wind but the wind will bring patchy Wales across the far north

:49:03.:49:07.

during the afternoon. Also showers in Northern Ireland, but the

:49:07.:49:14.

southern areas will stay drier and brighter. It turns showery across

:49:14.:49:19.

western Scotland during the day. Tuesday in Wednesday, not a huge

:49:19.:49:23.

amount of changes, Belfast is reporting drizzle on Wednesday, an

:49:23.:49:29.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS