13/02/2012 Newsnight


13/02/2012

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Disorder, default, devastation, just days for Greece to convince

:00:14.:00:19.

creditors this time it will make austerity stick. With riots on the

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streets and unease and rebellions in Parliament, four years of

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recession and hardship have taken their toll. Paul Mason is there.

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There's been two years of this and no sign of it letting up. The

:00:32.:00:37.

question now is given that the politicians don't really believe in

:00:37.:00:43.

the austerity, and the Greek people don't believe in it either, it work

:00:43.:00:48.

and can Greek society holding to together? Is Germany saving Greece

:00:48.:00:54.

from ruin or making the suffering worse? And is the Sun going down?

:00:54.:01:01.

One of its leading writers says there's a witch-hunt against Sun

:01:01.:01:05.

journalists. And Sue Lloyd Roberts asks Egyptian

:01:05.:01:11.

women about the sexual abuse many experienced during the Arab Spring.

:01:11.:01:17.

TRANSLATION: If a man forces you to take your clothes off and puts his

:01:17.:01:22.

hand up into your private area, and lives it there for five minutes,

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this is sexual aggression. I felt utterly defeated.

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Good evening. In the Vietnam War an American officer is supposed to

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have said that his troops had to destroy a village in order to save

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it. You might think something similar in happening right now in

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Greece. In order to qualify for more funds to pay its debts by

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March 20th, Greece has had to introduce the toughest austerity

:01:50.:01:55.

programme in Europe since World War II. It's produced violence on the

:01:55.:02:00.

streets. In Germany, officials mutter about the bottomless pit of

:02:00.:02:07.

Greek debts and the devastation that a disorderly unwrapping would

:02:07.:02:11.

cause. Here is Paul Mason in Athens. Last night, the Greek Parliament

:02:12.:02:19.

was asked to look into the abyss, to choose between rejecting

:02:19.:02:23.

austerity, with probable default, probable exit from the euro or

:02:23.:02:30.

implementing austerity as demanded by the EU. And 101 out of 300 MPs

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said they prefer the abyss. They either didn't turn up to vote or

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voted against the two main parties each had to expel 20 of their own

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MPs. A third of the coalition party has left the coalition. The

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majority passed the austerity measure. That should pave the way,

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starting on Wednesday, for the European Union begin to write off

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100 billion euros of Greek debt. But meanwhile, in the parallel

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universe that starts at the Greek Parliament, there was another Greek

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reality. And that was the people. Small business people, workers, and

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young people facing 20% unemployment who had had enough,

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and they, last night, had their say. As I found out.

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It It was supposed to be one last, big demonstration against austerity.

:03:29.:03:34.

Workers facing wage cuts, pensioners facing hardship, a lot

:03:34.:03:44.
:03:44.:03:45.

of people facing an uncertain future. But as dusk fell, the

:03:45.:03:55.
:03:55.:03:56.

trouble began. Tens of thousands of people found themselves on streets

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filled with tear gas and fires. And at the front, the minority who

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had come to fight got what they wanted.

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The police fought into the night. Months of frustration were released.

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The police made no attempt to control the streets, so the

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firebombers had, for some time, free rein. There's been two years

:04:31.:04:35.

of this and no sign of it letting up. The question now is, given that

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the politicians don't really believe in the austerity and the

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Greek people don't believe in it either, can it work and can Greek

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society hold together? 45 buildings were burnt, including this historic

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cinema. 130 people were arrested. In Parliament, Prime Minister,

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Lucas Papademos, got a majority for the new austerity package, but both

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of the major parties had to expel 20 MPs each who opposed the bill.

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And this morning, Antonis Samaras, who is likely to be the next Prime

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Minister, announced he would like to containing change and

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renegotiate the agreement. After last night, how long can Greece

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last without an election. Nobody can govern a democratic country

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without the people. I believe the elections are necessary. The

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decision making is necessary in order to have our citizens with us

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and not against us. We, the politicians, we have to be more

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sensitive and more responsible. We have to speak clear and honestly to

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the people. Whatever last night's vote achieved

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it was not closure. Greeks are shell shocked at the damage. Shell

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shocked at the scale of the austerity they just voted for. And

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trust in the political system is, for many, draining away.

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Joining me now, live from Athens is Paul. How quickly did the EU have

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to come up with a second detail out? Well, it starts effectively on

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Wednesday. But I think it's the beginning of March that we're

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looking at. A window at the beginning of March before 20th,

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when the so called PSI, the private sector gets involved. One Greek

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paper is reporting that 73% of the value of the loans gets written off

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and Greece gets allowed to have its debt reduced to only 125% of GDP,

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as opposed to 120, which is the plan, by 2020. But for most people

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this is academic. What I've heard since I've been here is political

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operators on all sides of the Parliament saying, in the first

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bailout we tried to sell it to people on the grounds that it would

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work and we'd stabilise ourselves and the economy would come back.

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Now, we're selling it to people on the idea that the alternative is

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disaster and doom. Very few people are prepared to go out and say,

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"And it will work" and that's because when you look at the

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dynamics of this country, few restaurants while I've been here

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with will take credit cards. They want cash. They'll give you a

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receipt, but they will not take plastic. And slowly but surely,

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cash, bank deposits are leaking out of the economy and it juz does not

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-- just does not look like this can turn itself around. And some of the

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people on the streets were not radical radbles, they are voters.

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In an election they will want to have their say with their

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candidates. They will place pressure on the candidates which

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the European Union will find inconvenient. So what the European

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Union now has to judge is whether the political system. I'm not

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talking about it fragmenting and falling apart, but simply

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delivering what they've just voted on. If they can't do that, that's

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key for the leadership as the euro approaches the technicalities of

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giving Greece 130 billion euros. Thank you very much. I'm joined by

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geest's Finance Minister last summer, Giorgios Papaconstantinou,

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and Costas Lapavitsas and Christian Schulz. Listening to that, it's

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clear many people don't want the austerity and many politicians

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don't think it can work, so who are you doing this for? We're doing it

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for the country and the citizens obviously. It's been an extremely

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tough two years. There is no question that people are hurting.

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Unemployment is at a record level, wages and pensions have been cut,

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taxes have opinion been raised so it's no surprise that people are

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looking at the middle of the recession and its worst point and

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cannot see the exit. And what this new programme is supposed to

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deliver is to turn the page, to show that confidence can return and

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that we can put all this behind us and slowly but surely go back on a

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path of sustainable growth. But it is very clear we were not on such a

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path before. Indeed, but you have riots in the streets. Within a

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couple of months you could have elections which could throw all the

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existing government out and there are those who think this is the

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insincere acceptance of the impossible. You know you really

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can't do it? You know, it's easy to look at the riots and say this

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represents a situation. The demonstrations are, of course, an

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indication of how people feel. The riots themselves are done by a very

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small minority of extremists, and plain criminals. It is very clear

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that at the end of two years of austerity it is not easy to

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convince people. The question is, is there an alternative to this? Is

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there something else that we can do. You could leave the eurozone. That

:10:30.:10:35.

would be an alternative? Yes, at a disastrous cost for the country and

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for the citizens. It is very easy for people to say that. Let me tell

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you, in very brief term, what would have happened this morning in

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Greece if the Parliament had voted a different way last night. If it

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had voted "no", rather than "yes". This morning, around 9.30, there

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would have been queues at the banks and the Government would have had

:11:02.:11:06.

to close down the banks and Greece would be an island unable to trade

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with the rest of the world, unable to pay salaries and pensions. It

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would be a total unmitigated disaster. Those who think there is

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a way to get out of the euro that is painless and does not shut down

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the banking system are either deluding themselves or playing a

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very dangerous game with the Greek people. This is the least worst

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option, is that an argument? Not at all. I think what is happening to

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Greece at the moment is a disgrace. There is real despair and poverty

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in the country and that has been imposed on it by its so-called

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allies and partners. This is the first thing that has to be said.

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This has not got a snowball's chance in hell of working. It is

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heading towards the exit from the Europe and towards bankruptcy in a

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chaotic way. This is what we've got in front of us, and the argument is

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among many people in Greece and elsewhere, it is the Greeks who

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should do that, they should take charge of their own future

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deliberately and with a plan. is your reaction to that, minister?

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Yes, what I hear is a collection of slogans, but I hear no answer to

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the scenario which I -- the nightmare scenario that I just

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painted for you. Of course Greece should take care of itself and take

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its own destiny in hand. But when you have a country that year upon

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year was spending more than it had. That was not really producing and

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got a huge external deficit and found itself with a debt of 360

:12:50.:12:57.

billion euro then it is very easy to say, "Let's just forget this

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debt." We can't survive if they somehow, by ourselves decide not to

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pay our creditors. We do not have a surplus to have more revenue than

:13:10.:13:14.

expenditure. Forgive me for interrupting, but if you do all

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these good things that you say you feel you have to do by 2020, after

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another eight years of austerity, your debt will still be 125% of GDP

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and that in itself may not be payable? Which is about the level

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of Italy and Ireland and certainly less than the level of Japan. 120%

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is too high and hopefully we will be able to grow fast, but again on

:13:42.:13:46.

a more sustainable footing and reduce it faster than that. But

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let's remember what happened in these last two years. In these last

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two years we reduced it by a massive 20 billion because people

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took serious sacrifices. Can we really throw all this out and to

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claw back some of the competitiveness that was lost in

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the last ten years, do we just throw it out of the window. How do

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you buy into the argument that this is doable and if so, how much pain

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is Greece going to have to accept, given that many think in Greece

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they are being bullied into this by German and other countries? I agree

:14:30.:14:33.

that we should not look at Greece in a deep recession after four

:14:33.:14:38.

years of recession and say this is the way Greece and this is how it

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will always be. The Germans shouldn't do that, the ones that

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say at the moment that Greece might be a bottomless pit and the Greeks

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and the markets shouldn't do that. The level doesn't matter of GDP,

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what matters is the direction the country is taken in. If the

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trajectory of the country is 100% it is a different view we have to

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take. But a German MP said today that a Greek exit from the eurozone

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would not be the end of the world. That is a very dangerous feeling

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that is spreading in some parts of the Conservative Party in Germany,

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that the firewalls are high enough now that a Greek exit wouldn't be a

:15:30.:15:37.

problem any more, but we doubt this is the case. Greece has had 14%

:15:37.:15:43.

contraction of GDP in the last two or three years. It has 21%

:15:43.:15:46.

unemployment and this plan aims for primary surpluses of the Government

:15:46.:15:52.

next year and the year after that. Greece has no business going for

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primary surpluses right now. This is entirely the wrong economic

:15:56.:16:01.

policy. The people who designed this need to go back to schedule.

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But with a Greek election in April, do you think it will be rejected by

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the people? I think the Greek political system in its entirety is

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competely discredited right now. This is the end of an era in Greece

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and I don't know if people realise this, but this is where we are. The

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party that's run Greece is completely finished. The party on

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the right is in disarray because of how it voted yesterday. I think a

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new configuration is emerging and the thing that is making all the

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difference is what is happening on the ground. And what people want is

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an end to this. They want an end to this humiliation and want a new

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policy. In terms of the overall future of Greek democracy is that

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something you worry about. I don't mean specifically that your party

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is low in the opinion polls, but the whole future 6 Greek democracy

:16:59.:17:04.

is up in the air? Look, we're paying the price of being the

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firefighters and rather the people turning on the ones who put the

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fire in the first place, they're turning on the firefighters who are

:17:12.:17:15.

trying to do something about the situation. We're paying a political

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price. That is what politics is about. I am worried about the

:17:19.:17:24.

future democrats democracy because I am worried about the rising of

:17:24.:17:30.

the extremes. I am worried when a listen to people like Mr Lapavitsas

:17:30.:17:34.

who try to say it's a painless way of getting rid of all the debt upon

:17:34.:17:40.

our country and be able, the next day, come back to the ways as we

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used to keep going. In other words by spending, but now there will be

:17:45.:17:51.

nobody willing to lend us the money to continue spending. We were a

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society that was over consuming, who was buying from abroad and did

:17:56.:18:00.

not have a productive base. And we did not restructure our economy in

:18:00.:18:05.

time. This programme is not just about austerity it is about deep

:18:05.:18:10.

reforms reforming the state and the Social Services reforming the tax

:18:10.:18:13.

system so people pay and not evading taxes. This is what it is

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about. It is a mistake to reduce this programme simply into

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reductions in expenditure in the public sector. This is part of it,

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but it's not the whole thing. tell you one thing that really

:18:29.:18:34.

infuriates Greeks right now, precisely the class of politicians

:18:34.:18:38.

that brought this country to this pass, are wagging their fingers and

:18:38.:18:44.

telling people what to do now. It cannot be done. Greece needs a new

:18:44.:18:47.

political line and new organisations. No-one said that

:18:47.:18:52.

getting out of the euro or defaulting on the debt, which

:18:52.:18:57.

actually the country is doing by itself, is going to be easy. But

:18:57.:19:02.

looking at the policy adopted right now is guaranteed to end up in

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failure. A quick word on that? don't think it's guaranteed to end

:19:07.:19:12.

up in failure. I think Greece is taking the right steps, it just got

:19:12.:19:16.

unlucky. Last year exports were rising but then the mistake was

:19:16.:19:21.

made to restructure Greek debt and there by destroy all the confidence

:19:21.:19:26.

people had been building into a recovery of the country. Now, if

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Greece were to exit the country we would make the same mistake and

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spread that mistake to other countries. A final word? I do not

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my country to become North Korea in Europe. I want my country to become

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a normal country and I believe we have every possibility to do so. We

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have the people and the productive resources and there's nothing

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different in the Greek DNA than that in the rest of Europe. We had

:19:53.:19:57.

a political class that failed the country, but let's not lump

:19:57.:20:01.

everybody together because those who tried to make amends in the

:20:01.:20:07.

last few years are being lumped together with those who created the

:20:07.:20:11.

mess in the future. It's about values and what kind of democracy

:20:11.:20:18.

we want and about presentation and not about a clientistic system of

:20:18.:20:23.

governance. This is what it is about. But it's certainly not about

:20:23.:20:27.

far-fetched ideas that claim that we can somehow get out of this

:20:27.:20:32.

situation without hard work and sacrifices in as just a way as

:20:33.:20:42.
:20:43.:20:44.

possible. Thank you all very much. In typically robust form, the Sun

:20:44.:20:48.

journalist, Trevor Kavanagh lashed out at the police. Senior figures

:20:48.:20:52.

at the Sun have been questioned after information which came

:20:52.:20:57.

apparently from inside the parent company. Is this global media

:20:57.:21:01.

empire now at war with itself or is it a witch hunt and a threat to

:21:01.:21:07.

press freedom as Mr Arrive nar said? This feels like a witch-hunt.

:21:07.:21:12.

There's a mass hysteria going on now. This is going to be a great

:21:12.:21:18.

cloud hanging over News Corp for the next few years. The Sun came

:21:18.:21:24.

out with heart-felt pleas for justice, for the Sun.

:21:24.:21:34.
:21:34.:21:37.

The words of Trevor Kavanagh, its senior writer.. Whether we're from

:21:37.:21:41.

red-top tabloids or TV programmes late at night on the BBC,

:21:41.:21:47.

journalists have a tendency to self-mythologyise. We're all

:21:47.:21:52.

legends in our own lunchtime. And the Sun say the wave of arrests at

:21:52.:21:56.

their own newspaper are now threatening the freedom of the

:21:56.:22:03.

press. I Why do we have to have dawn raids and 171 police mn on the

:22:03.:22:11.

case. It's complete overkill. many policemen should be involved?

:22:11.:22:15.

Not 171. And if this is about whether our soldiers had the right

:22:15.:22:20.

equipment I'd say it was a public offence here, just as the MPs

:22:20.:22:24.

expenses. Others who have taken on News International say without

:22:24.:22:29.

knowing what is being investigated it is far too early to claim a

:22:29.:22:35.

public offence. I don't think it's a witch-hunt. I know why it might

:22:35.:22:39.

be perceived as such, but if the police think there is a group of

:22:39.:22:44.

witches somewhere they have to hunt for them. They can't decide to

:22:44.:22:48.

interview some but not others, they have to look for the whole lot of

:22:48.:22:55.

people. But isn't it overkill when you have 120 police officers raided

:22:55.:23:01.

journalist's houses at dawn? It's a bit rich for the Sun to complain

:23:01.:23:09.

about dawn raids, they used to attend dawn raids on other people.

:23:09.:23:14.

Trevor Kavanagh said those arrested had been dropped in it, implicate

:23:14.:23:20.

the in alleged wrongdoing by the parent company, News Corp. A large

:23:20.:23:24.

number of extremely good journalists who have worked very

:23:24.:23:29.

loyally for the company for a very long time, as the company has

:23:29.:23:32.

announced itself, are often in police cells for a long period of

:23:32.:23:40.

time on evidence provided by the company. Shareholders at New corps

:23:40.:23:44.

are deeply concerned that the scandal in the British papers is

:23:44.:23:52.

now threatening Murdoch's entire show. America's foreign and corrupt

:23:52.:24:00.

picturess Act has had the FBI investigating for over six months.

:24:00.:24:03.

These investigations are broader in scope. We now have a different

:24:03.:24:07.

newspaper and part of the company that will be the focus of inquiry

:24:07.:24:12.

and we now have a much broad Erekat disagree of "foreign officials"

:24:12.:24:21.

that were allegedly the recipients of payments. Including some in the

:24:21.:24:26.

military. Last summer, Rupert Murdoch flew into the UK to give

:24:26.:24:35.

his endorsement to international's Rebekah Weighed. She then resigned.

:24:35.:24:41.

Those people hoping that the Sun will close down and go out of

:24:41.:24:45.

business should be careful what they wish for because without it

:24:45.:24:52.

there will be no Sunday papers because they subsidise it. We need

:24:52.:24:58.

a free and varied press in this country and the Sun is part of that.

:24:58.:25:02.

Sources in America say James Murdoch, Rupert's son, is

:25:02.:25:05.

increasingly unlikely to persuade shareholders their business could

:25:05.:25:12.

be safe in his hands and across the Murdoch media, law enforcement will

:25:12.:25:18.

want questions answered. They typically ask the where else

:25:18.:25:22.

question. In other words were payments like this occurring in our

:25:22.:25:27.

News Corp businesses or subsidiary areas, including all over the world.

:25:27.:25:31.

That's why inquiries like this can generally take several years.

:25:31.:25:35.

Another thing they will be asking is what did the executive officer

:25:35.:25:40.

know and when did they know it? Did they participate in any of the

:25:40.:25:45.

wrongdoing? Did they authorise any of the improper payments? Did they

:25:45.:25:49.

have knowledge of the impour payments but failed to put a stop

:25:49.:25:52.

to them, they're some of the questions that will be asked.

:25:52.:25:56.

Metropolitan Police tonight issued a statement saying no more than ten

:25:56.:26:01.

officers were used in the raids on journalists. They added that they

:26:01.:26:06.

don't believe that the level of resources on the inquiries is in

:26:06.:26:16.

any way dis proportionate to the task in hand. With me is Dominick

:26:16.:26:23.

Mohan and Charlotte Harris, and Michael Wolff who wrote biography

:26:23.:26:28.

of Rupert Murdoch. It's hardly a witch-hunt if the police follow the

:26:28.:26:34.

evidence and go where it leads and make an arrest if necessary.

:26:34.:26:39.

everything in proportion. Of course there probably has been some

:26:39.:26:43.

wrongdoing, but it is the way it is done. We now live in a country,

:26:43.:26:50.

where I can't believe and your listeners won't believe where Abu

:26:50.:26:56.

Qatada can walk free but the police are banging up the journalists. Ten

:26:56.:26:59.

officers per arrest. 15 police officers this weekend at a time

:26:59.:27:06.

where there are drugs going on. Do we really need 50 coppers? But even

:27:06.:27:14.

if Abu Qatada is a case that gets people worked up. This is

:27:14.:27:20.

proportionate? I'm proud to say I know one of them in his 60s. Do

:27:20.:27:26.

they think he will run off. This is ridiculous. It's serious overkill.

:27:26.:27:30.

I don't think that anyone was really going to run away and I

:27:31.:27:35.

agree that ten police officers did seem somewhat excessive. But I

:27:35.:27:39.

don't think that was the only point that the article that has caused

:27:39.:27:42.

all this discussion today was making. And it's quite interesting,

:27:42.:27:46.

because, of course, the Sun have never been particularly

:27:46.:27:53.

proportionate in themselves. that's an excuse, is it.

:27:53.:27:57.

necessary. But to an extent is it rich and interesting watching this

:27:57.:28:00.

shocked response. Of course the police have to follow up. That's

:28:00.:28:09.

very, very important. We spent six years. More police officer than

:28:09.:28:15.

investigated Lockerbie or Madeline McCann, or July 7th. This is a

:28:15.:28:19.

Murdoch smoke screen. This is classic Murdoch stuff. You're

:28:19.:28:24.

missing the entire point. Was there a crime, that's the only issue here.

:28:24.:28:27.

It doesn't really matter how many police officers are devoted to

:28:27.:28:34.

finding a crime if there was a crime. I agree. The crime. Are you

:28:34.:28:40.

guilty? Are you guilty? Michael, you're not listening. I'm saying of

:28:40.:28:45.

course if there is a crime there has to be an investigation. One at

:28:45.:28:54.

a time. One at a time. This is Murdoch stuff. Smoke screen. They

:28:54.:29:02.

pulled police officers off London 2012, beat can you justify that.

:29:02.:29:07.

don't think anybody thinks Mr Ferrari has committed a crime but,

:29:07.:29:11.

Michael, has the information behind this come from News Corp and if so

:29:11.:29:18.

what do you think is going on within that organisation? And I a

:29:18.:29:23.

apologise, I thought Mr Ferrari worked for the Sun. I used to.

:29:23.:29:27.

Clearly this is coming from inside News Corp, but I'll tell you from

:29:27.:29:31.

the American side, what is going on inside this company is that

:29:31.:29:35.

virtually the entire American operation has had it with the Brits.

:29:35.:29:41.

There is no up side that they can say everybody but Rupert himself,

:29:41.:29:46.

that they can see in maintaining the British operation here. The

:29:46.:29:51.

British operation, from every point of view within News Corp is poison

:29:51.:29:56.

and it will not be rehabilitated. Nobody believes that. They will see

:29:56.:30:00.

it now purely as downside and their approach now, which is different

:30:01.:30:07.

from the past number of years, is to say let it all out. Let these

:30:07.:30:12.

guys sink or swim on the basis of their own performance and their own

:30:12.:30:17.

behaviour. A swamp that needs to be drained. That is what Trevor

:30:17.:30:22.

Kavanagh took on and the implication of what was said there.

:30:22.:30:27.

I thought Trevor's piece was fantastic and I cheered every part.

:30:27.:30:30.

I understand that murder murder murder is still very well thought

:30:30.:30:37.

towards the Sun. He enjoys the Sun but BSkyB is the jewel in the crown.

:30:37.:30:43.

But there is a distinction there. Remember, BSkyB is a separate

:30:43.:30:46.

company which I think they're going to have problems there, but that's

:30:46.:30:54.

a separate company. Right now I'm looking at the subsidiary stkwigs,

:30:54.:30:58.

which is News International. swamp that needs to be drained. Is

:30:58.:31:04.

that the view you have of the Sun? If the evidence shows there have bs

:31:04.:31:08.

mass payments to the police, inappropriate payments and evidence

:31:08.:31:13.

has been destroyed then it might be that I adopt that metaphor, but

:31:13.:31:17.

with all of these things you have to be careful that you wait for the

:31:17.:31:21.

charges and deal with these things forensically. In terms of evidence.

:31:21.:31:26.

I think why the police went there in the morning is that in the same

:31:26.:31:30.

organisation, evidence has been destroyed. We've had to go to court

:31:30.:31:34.

on behalf of clients and we've had admissions in the last year from

:31:34.:31:38.

the police that they didn't do enough. And it's been like getting

:31:38.:31:47.

blood out of a stone, trying to find e-mails. Going through a

:31:47.:31:52.

child's pyjama draw? Look, the Sun have made a lot of money on the

:31:52.:31:59.

private information of others that they have published. And so in

:31:59.:32:04.

Kavanagh's article...That's Jealousy. This is nothing to do

:32:04.:32:13.

with jealousy. When hypocrites expose hypocrites. It's payback.

:32:13.:32:18.

it's not payback, it's them being treated like everybody else. Forget

:32:18.:32:23.

the reason, just look at what's going on here. You might as well

:32:23.:32:27.

face this. You might as well begin to judge what's going to happen in

:32:27.:32:31.

the future on the basis of what's happening now. What is the reality?

:32:31.:32:35.

The reality is that the company itself is turning over evidence

:32:35.:32:39.

which the police are acting on. Now that would indicate to me that

:32:39.:32:44.

things are probably pretty bad. You have the company and the police on

:32:44.:32:52.

the same page. Yes, the Sun is the odd man out. I would say the Sun is

:32:52.:32:56.

secured, whether for whatever reasons and they can be debated,

:32:56.:33:01.

but I think what you are looking at here is a serious situation. I

:33:01.:33:08.

don't think the Sun is going to recover. OK, the Sun is secured?

:33:08.:33:13.

It's in huge trouble. Rupert Murdoch is here, I don't think

:33:13.:33:20.

he'll close it. Would you weep if the Sun were to close? Yes, I would.

:33:20.:33:25.

I'd be very upset. Now, let me. Hold on a minute, I want to hear

:33:25.:33:32.

what Charlotte has to say. Was that irony? No, it wasn't. When the News

:33:32.:33:39.

of the World closed I got a message and I sent a message saying "are

:33:39.:33:44.

you having a joke. This can't be true." I didn't want that to happen.

:33:44.:33:48.

I wanted them to change. Is Rupert Murdoch actually in charge then is

:33:48.:33:53.

he the one who will decide whether the sun season stays or goes?

:33:53.:33:57.

think that's the crux of this and I don't think he is in charge, not

:33:57.:34:02.

the way he has been in charge for the 60 years he's run this company.

:34:02.:34:06.

I think the pressures on him in the US are enormous. Greater than

:34:06.:34:10.

they've ever been and I think there are personalities within the

:34:10.:34:14.

company that are nearly as strong as Rupert at this point. And Rupert

:34:14.:34:21.

will be next month 81 by the way. So I think he is fading. I think

:34:21.:34:27.

that he cannot defend this, his sentimental love any more. And I

:34:27.:34:33.

think that he is here and the company, his American executives --

:34:33.:34:40.

and some who - and some who will be here with him are here to figure

:34:40.:34:43.

out what to do. And the solution I think in the Guardian is the best

:34:43.:34:49.

alternative they have, which is to sell the Sun, take that money. Put

:34:49.:34:56.

it into a trust for the Times and the Sunday Times and leave Britain

:34:56.:35:02.

with his head held up. Thank you very much. A year after the Arab

:35:02.:35:10.

Spring we have a series of films this week. Firstly, we are in Egypt

:35:10.:35:18.

whose revolution was often symbolised by young women. A year

:35:18.:35:25.

later, where did the dreams go? Tahrir Square has lost the drama

:35:25.:35:29.

and the crowds. Recent demonstrations have moved on to

:35:29.:35:34.

outside individual ministries in the city. Leaving here a forlorn

:35:34.:35:39.

scene of abandonment and broken dreams for women. A far cry from

:35:39.:35:46.

the early days when the women of Egypt defied the stereotype and

:35:46.:35:51.

stood shoulder-to-shoulder in support of the revolution. But from

:35:51.:35:55.

the beginning this was deemed unacceptable by those who were and

:35:55.:36:01.

still are in charge. TRANSLATION: had been in the city since January

:36:01.:36:06.

25th because I wanted to bring about all the aims of the

:36:06.:36:09.

revolution. A new constitution and see Hosni Mubarak put on trial

:36:09.:36:15.

along with others in the ministry. On March 9, the Army attacked a

:36:15.:36:20.

group of women, including Samira, outside the Kentucky Fried Chicken

:36:20.:36:23.

on the edge of the square. They were dragged by their hair,

:36:23.:36:28.

handcuffed to the railings and taken to the military prison and

:36:28.:36:37.

beaten and tortured. Samira says some died and a woman doctor

:36:37.:36:44.

carried out virjinty tests on those who-sur- vived. She told me to take

:36:44.:36:50.

off my clothes and carried out the test in front of the soldiers. It

:36:50.:36:54.

humiliated me. I had gone to the square to call for freedom and they

:36:54.:36:59.

were making me pay the price. was to get worse. TRANSLATION:

:36:59.:37:04.

woman then said, the military officer in charge wants to test you

:37:04.:37:11.

himself. I was made to strip again. This was sexual abuse. If a man

:37:11.:37:16.

forces you to take your clothes off and puts his hand up into your

:37:16.:37:21.

private area and leaves it there for five minutes, this is sexual

:37:21.:37:25.

abuse. What do you think they were trying to tell you and the others

:37:25.:37:31.

by treating you in this way? If you take to the streets in the name of

:37:31.:37:35.

revolution or call for freedom or social justice they were telling us

:37:35.:37:41.

we will violate your honour. Using a bizarre kind of logic, the Army

:37:41.:37:46.

later admitted they had orderrd the test because men and women had been

:37:46.:37:51.

in the square together. The Army didn't want to be blamed for any

:37:51.:37:57.

woman who might have lost her virginity in the square, in a

:37:57.:38:04.

country where a women not to be a virgin before marriage can lose her

:38:04.:38:09.

life. Samira is the only one to have taken the matter to court and

:38:09.:38:13.

to have returned to Tahrir Square. None of the other women have been

:38:13.:38:19.

seen her again. As you can see, very few women are here now. Nine

:38:19.:38:26.

months later, the scandal of the virginity testing was matched only

:38:26.:38:32.

by the savage woman whose clothes were important back to reveal her

:38:32.:38:40.

bra. It was suggested she was a religious Conservative and men and

:38:40.:38:49.

women marched in the streets in outrage. Hadir was one of those who

:38:49.:38:55.

protested and officers asked her to meet a Major General nearby in a

:38:55.:39:00.

Government building. She agreed. TRANSLATION: They pushed into into

:39:00.:39:05.

a room which turned out to be a torture room. There were already

:39:05.:39:10.

girls inside who were being beaten and violated. The officers were

:39:10.:39:14.

using their sticks to brutally beat us and they were enjoying what they

:39:14.:39:21.

were doing and asked us, "What hurts the most?" it was clear they

:39:21.:39:24.

were targeting girls more than anyone else to make us afraid and

:39:25.:39:30.

because they wanted to make men in the square feel humiliated and

:39:30.:39:36.

defeated for being unable to protect us. Women may have been

:39:36.:39:41.

frightened into taking a lower profile in the square, but north of

:39:41.:39:48.

Cairo, hodia, a 43-year-old doctor and mother of four, is being mobbed

:39:48.:39:54.

like a popstar. The newly elected MP for the Muslim Brotherhood, is

:39:54.:39:59.

going on a walk about in her new constituency in the Egyptian delta.

:39:59.:40:06.

Why do they like you so much. "I was born here, she explains and

:40:06.:40:13.

people know and like me. She'll fight for our rights. Adding that

:40:13.:40:19.

their last MP made promises but did nothing. Hodia is a respected local

:40:19.:40:25.

doctor, but she is also reaping the benefit of what the Muslim

:40:25.:40:29.

Brotherhood was doing at a local level, building up their support

:40:29.:40:33.

during the Mubarak years. They built hospitals, sheltered the

:40:33.:40:39.

orphans and handed out food to the poor. Transtran I know she's able

:40:39.:40:45.

to do a lot. Her party suffered in the past. Now they should be given

:40:45.:40:50.

a chance. I hope she will work to make this country better. But the

:40:50.:40:56.

Muslim Brotherhood is known as the party that expects women to dress

:40:57.:41:02.

modestly and preferrably stay at home. But will she fight for

:41:02.:41:05.

women's rights? TRANSLATION: From now on I believe that we will see

:41:05.:41:10.

change. We will see the start of real democracy here in Egypt in a

:41:10.:41:15.

way that allows all citizens, including women to join in, knowing

:41:15.:41:19.

that the new politics is uncorrupted and based on rights for

:41:19.:41:23.

all. Therefore I think that the participation of women and their

:41:23.:41:26.

impact in the Parliament in the coming period will be completely

:41:26.:41:35.

different. She's so genuine and reassuring you want to hug her. But,

:41:35.:41:42.

as a woman MP, she is part of a tiny minority. Only nine women were

:41:42.:41:49.

elected to sit in the 508-seat Parliament, which is dominated by

:41:49.:41:53.

their bearded colleagues. More than 70% of the seats are held by the

:41:53.:41:59.

Muslim Brotherhood and by the more hard- line Salafi Party. Ironically,

:41:59.:42:04.

there were more women here during the Mubarak era when women had a

:42:04.:42:10.

quota of 64 seats. The Islamic parties are in charge in Egypt

:42:10.:42:19.

today. Which makes Bouthaina Kamel, a former television presenter, an

:42:19.:42:23.

unlikely candidate in the next press tensionial elections. We

:42:23.:42:29.

caught up with her on the election trail. She is standing, she says

:42:29.:42:36.

because she wants to give women an idea of one day where they might go.

:42:36.:42:44.

But she knows a non- scarf-wearing candidate doesn't stand a chance.

:42:44.:42:48.

And the votes only show that women in Egypt don't vote for women.

:42:48.:42:55.

Women make up 60% of Egypt society and the percentage of literacy in

:42:55.:43:00.

women is 07%. It is said that men and women don't know how to vote

:43:00.:43:07.

and the number of female candidate its was very low. Beside, all the

:43:07.:43:13.

political alliances have an Islamic bias which is determined to lower

:43:13.:43:18.

the status of women. A number of constitutional reforms have been

:43:18.:43:24.

created without a single woman on it. Do the more secular women of

:43:24.:43:31.

Egypt have reason to the fearful? I asked the spokesman for the Salafi

:43:31.:43:35.

Party, but he wanted to talk about the religious rights of women,

:43:35.:43:40.

those who completely cover themselves. TRANSLATION: What about

:43:40.:43:46.

the woman who wears the hib yab, who has been so discriminated in

:43:46.:43:51.

the past who was prevented from entering university or being on the

:43:51.:43:57.

teaching staff. Also they prospect' allowed to work in television. In

:43:57.:44:04.

medical professions they suffered systematic persecution. In this

:44:04.:44:09.

Parliament no-one will be forced into anything but we now have a

:44:09.:44:14.

greater chance to advise women of the rules of our religion, such as

:44:14.:44:19.

wearing a headscarf. Is Egypt about to become an Iran or Saudi Arabia

:44:19.:44:23.

in its treatment of women? No-one knows quite what to expect when the

:44:23.:44:29.

new Government is due to take over in the summer, but some women are

:44:29.:44:39.

nervous. In axe Alexandra, Egypt's second city, Aida Noureldin, a

:44:39.:44:42.

lawyer is taking radical action. She is setting up another

:44:42.:44:48.

Parliament. TRANSLATION: Women were just used as voting blocks in these

:44:48.:44:53.

last elections and we do not have any women from Alexandra in the new

:44:53.:45:00.

Parliament. So we decided to create a parallel Parliament, which will

:45:00.:45:04.

consist of mostly women and some men and youth, in order to share

:45:04.:45:07.

the national responsibility with the members of the official

:45:07.:45:13.

Parliament. Andlets to keep an eye on what they -- and also to keep an

:45:13.:45:20.

eye on what they do. At the first meeting of the working party of the

:45:20.:45:25.

so-called parallel Parliament, the woman in the skhraver could be

:45:25.:45:30.

forgiven for ask, "Who is going to listen to us?" the fear is no-one.

:45:30.:45:36.

But they conclude it will be good pictures. We'll be in a better

:45:36.:45:39.

position to field candidates for the next Parliament, they say,

:45:39.:45:43.

whenever that might be. Many women here are being asked to wait for

:45:43.:45:48.

what they had hoped would be the rewards of their revolution. Not

:45:48.:45:52.

least the women in the square who complain that they got beaten up,

:45:52.:45:57.

just like the men. And it's not fair that they should be sent back

:45:57.:46:03.

home. But women like Samira, who is still fighting her court case

:46:03.:46:07.

against the army officer who carried out the virginity test says

:46:07.:46:13.

the battle is not lost yet. TRANSLATION: The Army and the

:46:13.:46:17.

Muslim Brotherhood are in control here and the reason why women

:46:17.:46:21.

weren't elected is because the revolution isn't over. It's still

:46:21.:46:30.

going on. Sue Lloyd Roberts reporting. While we've been on air

:46:30.:46:38.

we've had news that the ratings agency, have put France on a

:46:38.:46:41.

negative outlook. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has released a

:46:41.:46:47.

statement saying this is a reality check for anyone who thinks Britain

:46:47.:46:51.

can duck confronting its debts. Stephanie is on the phone. How

:46:51.:46:56.

significant is this? It's obviously not welcome for the Government. And

:46:56.:47:03.

it shows you can have a shadow hang nk over your triple A rating if

:47:03.:47:08.

your economy is not growing fast enough. That's one of the things

:47:08.:47:12.

Moodies has highlighted in this assessment. But I should say it's

:47:12.:47:17.

not a downgrade and they haven't put us on negative watch which

:47:17.:47:24.

would be a 50% chance that the UK would lose its A triple A in the

:47:24.:47:30.

future. It means there's a roughly one in three chance of losing the

:47:30.:47:34.

triple A in the next few months. And France has had the same

:47:34.:47:40.

treatment. There are nine countries that Moodies have reassess. Three

:47:40.:47:47.

of them, Austria, the UK and France have triple As. And others, like

:47:47.:47:52.

Spain and Portugal have actually been downgraded. So we've not been

:47:52.:47:56.

singled out, but it is interesting we've been included in that group,

:47:56.:48:01.

because in the past when the countries have been looked at the

:48:01.:48:05.

UK was not included. They've not thought we would be directly

:48:05.:48:10.

included in what is going on in the euro zone. Thank you very much.

:48:10.:48:19.

I'll be back with more of this I'll be back with more of this

:48:19.:48:23.

tomorrow, good night. Good evening. Mild north-westerly

:48:23.:48:29.

winds off the Atlantic will keep temperatures up through the night.

:48:29.:48:35.

Drizzle in the far north of Scotland and damp patches in the

:48:35.:48:42.

south-east but elsewhere dry. And tomorrow, hazy sunshine around. One

:48:42.:48:47.

or two showers into Norfolk and Suffolk, but most areas will

:48:47.:48:51.

continue with sunshine after a damp start.

:48:51.:48:57.

Eight or nine degrees possible in Wales where you're sheltered from

:48:57.:49:03.

the wind but the wind will bring patchy Wales across the far north

:49:03.:49:07.

during the afternoon. Also showers in Northern Ireland, but the

:49:07.:49:14.

southern areas will stay drier and brighter. It turns showery across

:49:14.:49:19.

western Scotland during the day. Tuesday in Wednesday, not a huge

:49:19.:49:23.

amount of changes, Belfast is reporting drizzle on Wednesday, an

:49:23.:49:29.

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