16/02/2012 Newsnight


In-depth news analysis with Mishal Husain. As Rupert Murdoch tries to save The Sun, does the British press have a future? Is working for no pay the way to tackle unemployment?

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Tonight - hacking, a newspaper axed, falling sales, and an ongoing


bribery investigation - the British press is in crisis as never before.


Forty years after flying in to buy the Sun, Rupert Murdoch is back to


try and save it but are his shareholders losing patience?


corps was phone as good news and bad news and toxic news.


Do we need to protect our newspapers, or have they had their


day? Also tonight, celebrations a year after the uprising began in


Libya. But though Gaddafi has gone, brutality and divisions remainment


TRANSLATION: I received an an anonymous call telling me my son


was shot and his body was on the beach. We'll discuss the mixed


blessings the Arab Spring has brought across the region. Is this


job advert the solution to Britain's unemployment problem? Is


it valuable experience or just Good evening. 97 years ago Keith


myrhh myrhh came to work in London as a reporter, tonight his son flew


in prepared to address the staff at his newspapers tomorrow. Does the


industry that laid the foundation of the global myrhh myrhh empire


even have a future? Newspapers are battling falling sales, legal


defeats and arrests. The House of Lords suggest the subsidies might


be needed for the investigative journalism a democracy needs.


Read all about it! Rupert flies in to meet the staff they fear he


might drop them in the mire. Journalism is in jeopardy. You


might not need to stop the presses, they could be grinding to a halt


anyway. According to a House of Lords committee, there's a crisis


over investigative journalism - the sort that digs out material,


Government, corporations the powerful, would prefer would be


kept hidden. Serious investigative journalism is changing. In the past


year the wireed world has brought us the wholesale revelations of


Wikileaks and information disk about MPs expenses. Both stories


were bought by newspapers, but both needed journalist toss mediate. The


Lords said the expense exclusive brings the point. They needed a


huge amount of work to analyse that disk, they need to be experts in


data analysis and unrolling the story over time of the number of


journalists engaipblgdz obthat story was enormous. It takes time


to stand up a story Time and expertise and resource, basically,


yes. The problem is declieping circulation. The national press,


down by a quarter over seven million in a decade. Revenues


moving elsewhere, journalism going digital and trying to work out how


to make money in the progress. A media analyst maintaining


investigative work can flourish scales of journalists have to be


turned to the analysts to the massive amount of Government data


that is produced. We are living in an era the ability to put the data


and come up with stories is rich. Snees the sort of thing your


company is involved in. Who will pay for a journalist to take a


flight overseas, to meet a source? You don't understand how the expert


networks of today have developed. We are a looking at worldwide


networks. Everyone I know in journalism, economics, or academic


life has got an expert network which is vast and always growing.


Someone always has to foot the bill. At News International the Sun has


long seemed a strange bed fellow for the Times and Sunday Times.


While the Sun's profits paid for the losses the Times people held


their noses. After this week's arrests however the Sun could


become a legal lieability. It reported today, News Corporation's


passed the police claims the Sun has regularly been paying public


officials as much as �10,000. A Sun journalists are talking of hiring a


human rights lawyer to defend themselves against their own


company. We've been contacted by journalists


who are anxious about their futures at News International and who fear


there are going to be more arrests. We've been contacted by a number of


members of the public, who have been sources at some point in their,


in recent years to journalists at News International, and they fear


their confidentiality is being compromiseed and they simply don't


understand how their details and their relationships with the


journalists have been surrendered by the company. Lord Clement-Jones


says the legal uncertainties are a problem? I think it cast a pall on


the future. This is why we've gone into detail about the way that, for


instance the DPP should look at charging journalists in these


circumstances. We think a set of guidelines and in fact, they have


accepted the need for guidelines on prosecution, that's important.


what is and isn't in the public interest? Absolutely. It looks how


the newspaper itself behaves. it pay a public official under the


criteria? That will be extremely doubtful F there was a scandal


uncovered, only through that process, then the DPP might decide


although an offence had been been committed, technically he did not


wish to prosecute. While Leveson winds on the Lords and legendary


hacks threat about the future. Rupert Murdoch will likely issue


soothing words tomorrow, he is sentimental about his newspapers.


It is journalism of the expensive investigative kind that revealed


the scandal which could yet see Fleet Street go foot.


With me is the jourp list, Joan Smith formerly of the Sunday Times


which has been a victim of phone hacking. Phil Hall of the News of


the World and Carla Buzasi, from The Huffington Post. How do you


think Rupert Murdoch will handle things in Wapping in the morning?


It is difficult for him. He was a great campaigner in his own right


when he took over the business. He will have contradictions deep in


his soul, because you would expect a newspaper to fight in the


application by any authority to find out who their sources are. It


is cornerstone, underpins newspapers that they have the right


to protect their sources. Now he was amendment revealing sources to


the police. So, for the people who work at the Sun, there's the


journalistic principle, like every other journalist is brought up, and


the feeling the amendment is shopping them? I have a business,


with people, whistle-blowers, would you go to News International to


somebody who doesn't want to be identified who is potentially going


to find the people who run the company to identify them f you're


unable to break stories, in the newspaper you're finished. Is it as


broad as that is this Two separate things, one we have a problem about


investigative journalism and that's about resource, and about agenda.


So newspapers have moved away from the expensive thing of doing,


investigations which take months if not years, looking at for example,


the Guardian's investigation to phone hacking. These stories don't


produce instant results and proprietors want that. The rhetoric.


All this is getting overblown. When I worked for the Sunday Times, we


had a good story if true, we're hearing a lot about how sources are


handed over, and journalists are being betrayed. We don't know


that's what has happened. What the News International committee who is


looking into this, they are looking at payments of maybe tens of


thousands to people, who were coverting effectively on the


paper's pay roll and employers didn't know that, and they were


public servants. We don't know, at the moment which of those things is


predominating, and I don't think this is about somebody having lunch


with somebody and that's handed over to the police, it is more


serious. If it is as serious ending up with the demise of the Sun, you


as a victim of phone hacking, would you mourn its loss? This is the


trouble with binary opposition. The question is it is not do we have


sensationalism journalism, used criminal methods, or do we have no


journalism at all. We want investigative journalism, Rupert


Murdoch does not have to close the Sun, he didn't have to close the


News of the World, he had to ensure ethical standards were followed


followed and they could flourish in the end.


Presumably a website like yours, would stand to be the winner, if


this is the death knell for newspapers? When the News of the


World closed last year, which was the week you launched, people said


there's a whole new audience who will log on your website. That's


not how I see t people are buying their newspapers, but they're


getting news from websites and they're using the two. It would be


sad if we saw the demise of all the newspaper brands we've grown up


with, and love in this country. Website like the The Huffington


Post and others which will launch in the years to come, are are, this


is where the media's going, this is the future, but lots of the


publications have digital arms as well, which are important to the


future of their businesses. Phil Hall the old-fashioned newspaper,


how much trouble is it? Newspapers feel set the agenda and the


internet, will take it up and run with it. The bigger problem is


breaking any big story. I was talking to a national newspaper


editor and he said I can't break anything, because Twitter will


break it out before I do. Their agents or PRs are Twittering it and


geting it out there, and control theing, it is hard to break a big


story. Without resources, investigative stories don't break.


I had a team, and sometimes we would break one story every three


months. It is a fatal decline, you souped as if the game is up? It is


up as we've known it. They have to change quickly. One of the issues


newspapers has had, is that traditional prooperatetors, bought


internet businesses and expect them to run as they ran their old


industry. You have to let people expert in that field and adapt.


you adapt successfully, is there a way to make the newspaper


profitable again? The question about business models has been


around for a long time. One of the problems is newspapers embrace the


internet, rush to place content on the internet and didn't think how


they're going to get any return on that. And when people say to me, I


will not pay for news on the internet. What I say is you want


people to go to places like Afghanistan and Syria, and possibly


have their legs blown off and killed and you're not willing to


pay access to the website. We have to make people understand, free


content on the internet is not free to the people who put it there.


foreign journalism, investigative journalism, Carla Buzasi that is


the domain of the newspapers? The The Huffington Post isn't known for


investigative journalism isn't known at the minute? We're a small


operation, but looking at the US arm, who have hundreds of


journalists, we've had people in Syria and Greece, and internet


newspaper sites like ours, as we grow and build a reputation, that


is absolutely is an area we have to play in, because people with coming


to expect us to break the stories. Is that the future, will they pick


up the flak? It is developing all the time, newspapers will move on-


line, because technology will facilitate that. It will make


newspapers more accessible, there are approximates, where you can


access The Huffington Post, Facebook and Twitter and newspaper


all on the same page. So, it would develop, but newspapers have to


develop with it. This model that needs international, that


successfully ran, was that the News of the World was known for scoops


and investigative journalism, the Sun not so much, but they cross-


subsidised? You have to understand the myrhh myrhh's passion for


newspapers kept them alive. It doesn't make money, but at the


moment he can't sell a company, which has lawsuits going on, and


around the clock. Until you know what the value of that is, it will


be hard for him to sell those newspapers. At the moment, they're


giving him 1% of the profit and 100% of the bad publicity.


Something will break. How do you think it will end up for the Sun


and News International? I hope, I'm a journalist, I don't want to see


newspapers close. What I do want to see is a different kind of


journalism and rebalancing of what people actually are offered to read.


I think, newspaper, consumers are in a way passive. If what they're


offered is a constant diet of articles about Big Brother, they're


not going to be saying, they're not covering the trial of a dissent in


bella rus, if you change the balance, that you have the populous


stuff, and you have to have newspapers doing the investigations


and looking at the workings of: Perhaps there's not popular


appetite? It is necessary in a democracy that newspapers do that,


and that's why they're zero rate for VAT, that's that's an


understanding of the role in society, which goes beyond their


commercial existence. To save them, tax breaks this, is what the House


of Lords was suggesting today? How do you feel? Looking at that,


digital have been forgotten, they hadn't thought about the websites


at all. There was interesting things in what came out of the


House of Lords today. But they've got to acknowledge digital is a


large part of the tri, and it will be bigger going forward. I don't


think tax breaks to local newspapers is the answer.


Successful newspaper industry has to remain independent. Tax breaks


link Government to newspapers, and independence is important if


they're to survive. Thank you very much. Now, a stormer erupt on


Twitter and Facebook, after a job advert offered a night shift


position in Tesco in Suffolk. The pay was listed as jobseeker's


allowance plus expenses which would be cheaptor permanent staff. Tesco


admitted it made a mistake and the job was work experience, offered as


part of a Government scheme. But should that work experience be paid


at the going rate? Liz Mackean has been looking into it. An


opportunity to work for Britain's largest private sector employer -


the job based in East Anglia is for the niest shift. If the hoursant


punishing enough, consider the pay, instead of wages, you keep your


jobseeker's allowance, that's �53 .43 a week, way below the minimum


wage. Tesco say the advert is a mistake and is being rectified. The


error was to describe the job as "permanent" when it is part of a


Government work experience scheme. So the whole thing was a clerical


error by Jobcentre Plus, which operates the scheme and it's


protected a fewer yu. One of many comments told Tesco it was


exploiting the jobless. It highlights the scheme is allowing


employer to take on a workforce paid for by tax pairs. Searching a


job site, we came across many errors, offers of permanent jobs


without wages. A spokesman for the Department of Work and pences told


us it was: And the site was amended. The work experience placements


target those who need extra help in getting a job. They run for up to


eight weeks and unlike the work programme are voluntary. Though


anyone not completeing the scheme risks losing benefits. In actual


fact all you get for doing the jobs is jobseeker's allowance, and then


you're lucky a interview, but no guarantee. That's a company that


made �3.8 billion profit last year. It is not right that fer they're


forced to do this work for no pay. It is no surprise it is called a


form of modern slavery. Certainly not by the Prime Minister, who


heaped praise on the scheme on a trip to Asda's last month. On the


work experience places, we're doing 250,000 of them, we're finding


within two months, half of them are coming off benefit. There's a


relatively inexpensive scheme. big companies are distanceing


themselves. Water stons told usz, us it does not encourage work for


no pay and is not involved in this scheme. When it discovered one of


the stores was involved, it ordered it to stop. Sainsbury's which


operates its own initiative called You Can, says last year over 4,300


colleagues were retained following a placement. The Government says it


is part of the public good. But what about those taking part? The


Government say they're getting the experience they need to help them


find jobs, and with young people in particular, so badly affected by


rising unemployment, the coalition is under pressure to show its range


of work programmes, are themselves, working. The DWP is considering how


to extend the scheme to some of they say on disability benefits, if


they're judged able to work. Added sorrow cats say there are wider


benefits to the programme. There is a slight programme large firms such


as Tesco may sues this as a way of getting short-term labour, at the


taxpayers expense. But that's gravely overstated, that any such


problem that does exist, will get weighed by the benefits the


jobseekers get from the programme. It sorts out the problems that dend


to exist, where you get a black market with people claiming


benefits while at the same time working informally in the black


economy. Tesco claims 300 young people have gone on to get


permanent employment with us, and the scheme is not a replacement or


substitute for your permanent staff. The great rate of expansion by the


big supermarkets, means they're creating tens of thousands of new


jobs. But the accusation that their immense profits are in part built


by taxpayer workers is difficult for the political cheerleaders. Is


this scheme right? Can it help? Will Straw and Neil O'Brien of


Policy Exchange are with me. The question is why should taxpayers


money, your money and my money go to Tesco's so it can have shelves


done overnight? The New Deal, that means people out of work for a long


time, are encourageed to get work experience. If you're on benefit,


you can get trapped you can't get a job because you don't have


experience. If you let people live on benefits for a long time, it


gets harder for them to get into work. All parties have enkourplged


them to do the projects. This is, this job, for instance the


overnight shift at a Tesco in Suffolk, and we found many jobs


like that, advertised on the website, that's not work experience


in experience, that is a job that needs to be done, it is not a


skilled job? Clearly in this case, a few people, hundreds of people


have got jobs at the end of the scheme. We do need to be careful,


what the project are for. Is it for a short-term experience, or


something that aims to defer people staying on benefits. If it is the


later, we need to avoid doing what placements displace other jobs, so


we don't take away the jobs at people at Tesco for example. In


those schemes, it might be good creating additional like cleaning


up schemes, in Australia and US and so on. The underlying principle is


in order to get job seek he is allowance, it is good to be doing


something in return? I don't think any Government would be opposed to


get people off welfare and into work. The problem is you've people


out of work for a long time, we now know there's more than a million


youth unemployment, and long-term unemployment is going up, where


people are out of the workforce for a long time, it is harder to get


them back in the Labour force. The question is how do you do that. The


Labour Party brought in work experience, but it is not


compulsory. This compels you, while it is doing that, it takes you away


from other work and training. What Labour had at the last Labour


government was the Future Jobs Fund, this is a scheme that gave people


proper work for a minimum number of hours a week, properly paid with


time to get training, the Government scrapped that scheme,


even though it is proved to be successful. That's a difficulty,


because the new schemes are open to abuse, as you have shown in the


package and cause problems for those trying to get in the Labour


market. Is this those already in work that have a better chance of


getting the job they want? That's right, I'm absolutely saying, you


have to give the people opportunity to get into work. The Future Jobs


Fund was finding about 50% people in that scheme were getting back


into work. That may not sound a lot, but compared to people who aren't


in work, struggling to get in the Labour market. The other thing is


the Government did this they claimed to save money. It cost them


half a billion pounds a wear yaer to do it. The study, the work


provider, and David Miliband did last week, showed the costs of the


Exchequer, from higher unemployment benefits, and lost tax revenue,


went into the billions. They saved a little bit but lost a lot. How do


you feel, the suggestion this will be extend today disabled people,


those judge fit to work, what does that mean? You say disabled, these


are people fit to work. That broadly speak something a


continuation what's gone on before. When you said under last Government,


you couldn't be forced you could, that was the right thing to do. The


public think this is fair. 80% agree with the idea if you've been


on benefit for more than a year, you should be asked to do work in


exchange for the benefits. In the since sense there are millions of


people, going out to work, working hard, not necessarily for a lot of


money, and you have some people, not most people on Ben filts, but


could be moving into work and aren't at the moment. So if we


could get the benefit system to tailor people's problems. If being


the operateive word there. There is an image problem, water stons


saying it is not good for the reputation, to be involved, if it


ends up get ago rolled out to disabled people as well, there will


be less takeup for it. Who would want to be associated with it?


we need to do is have a tailored system. At the moment for example,


the DW., have thousands of people on drug users, in the first


interview, in a Jobcentre, we don't ask you for that kind of thing. We


don't identify people's problems and segment people's needs of


disabilities and the problem is at the moment, we wait for a year to


see who get a job We'll discuss if the whole industry is now under


threat and do we need to protect our newspapers or have they had


their day? And see who doesn't. The problem with that, it is cheap, but


if we leave people for a year, after a year, they're rusted and


got depressed, it is hard, they have a hole in their CV, so it


would be better to target the help and the programmes on day one of


their claim. Thank you both. Now, one year ago, something new and


unthinkable was beginning on the streets of Benghazi, 40 years of


protests, you know how the story ends, at least the story of Gaddafi


himself. How will the Libyan story end. At the end of our week of


films, Mark Urban has been back to Libya, amid report of lawlessness


and torture. Some images are disturbing. It is a time of


celebration for the fighters. The other night, different big gaids


that seized this city last August, took to the streets, in an


exuberant show of force. Who could have foreseen it one year ago?


of February, 2011 - this is the day which all people will never forget.


They take it this is the date where everybody is born on that day.


didn't believe that we have this sort of energy has been exploded at


once, in one day in the whole country. We nef thought this


revolution was going to succeed because we know the amount of power


and what Gaddafi used to do to suppress or to put down any


revolution or any movement against him you know. This is Tripoli


street in Misrata, the city was attacked by Gaddafi's forces last


spring and fighting raged along this axes for months. More than


1500 people from Misrata, died in the struggle. And as a city emerged


with a steely sense of self- reliance. They all went to the


front line together, as friends, as family supporting each other.


Anybody died, they all cried for him. And anybody wounded the all


knew him and all cried for him up to now. So, the city, as united as


knitted together as one client, and up to now, they still support each


other. They are not relying too much on the government, they don't


have much from the government. Further down the street, a war


museum welcomes pre-school children or passers by, taking pride of


place outside is a sculpture seized from Gaddafi's compound - a trophy


brought back by militias and symbol of and an old centralised system of


power smashed. All this destructive power at his disposal was obviously


enormously invigorateing for the country people still have


tremendous positive feeling about the revolution x But what you're


also hearing increasingly, is concerns being expressed by the


apparent grip or leadership at the top, and fears the gains of the


revolution might be squandered. In Libya though, with victory has come


revenge. We went to a camp on the outskirts of Tripoli to meet


members of this tribe who fled their homes. They gave this footage


of an attack when eight people were killed at the camp. The tribe blame


the militia for chasing 30,000 of them out of their homes, and


pursueing some here. Most now are too frieltened to be filmed, and


the authorities wouldn't let us in. But Attiya Mahjoub told us how his


13-year-old son had been killed. TRANSLATION: I received an an


anonymous call in the middle of the night telling my son was shot and


his body was on the beach. I was too afraid to go there at midnight


and went the next morning, but I couldn't find it. The police


informed me my son's body was at the hospital.


The accusation is war crimes, the Government say there's little they


can do to protect the refugees. They went on Monday's attack, came


here, but he said we can't do anything. We will try to save you,


we will try to bring these people away, we stayed five days, nobody


came here to save us. The militias have kept unit in Tripoli and in


common with other armed groups, they stand accused of operating as


a law on themselves. Asked about alleged attacks on the tribe,


representatives emphasised the crimes of Gaddafi's followers.


we went nobody was there, they had left, they've done a crime, we will


never slaughter them as you mentioned, we would nef do that.


And we will never do this to any other Libyans. We captureed them


and take them to the justice. charge of persecuting those


suspected of backing the old order, runs broader than one tribe. This


is one of dozens of makeshift prisons across the country, where


the revolution stands accused of locking up more than 8,000 people.


There have been allegations of torture, and detainees have no idea


when they might be tried or released. All of which is very


awkward for the foreign allies. made it clear to the Government and


to the NTC, on the occasions when this issue has arisen. It is hugely


important to us. That they do, differentiate themselves from the


previous regime. That they do, in practice, follow through on what


they have been consistent in saying publicly, that they support the


highest international standards of human rights. And that they address


those problems that arise, those incidents that arise where


allegations are made of mistreatment, torture. A sense that


scores are settled, and security somewhat tenuous, can be felt in


the country's banks. I think the security is OK now.


Because, there's some security of the bank. There's every day, three


or four people with guns, and it is OK. But, it is dangerous to get


dollars in the bank. Businesses complain of a shortage of cash to


pay staff. The situation exacerbated by 15 dina bills handed


in today. The high denomination notes was thought to be used by


Gaddafi supporters or hoarded by those fears the worse. For


businessmen, a shortage of cash is one of the biggest daily challenges.


He made a major investment, in this new electronic shop in Tripoli.


But he's delighted that old-style Gaddafi crony capitalism is gone.


For example I can, within one day, I can make all the documents to


make a new company. To run a new business. For example,


I will not get projects soon because we know the financial


problem in the country is still not stable. But at least, I can set


myself up to be ready for getting project. That sense of a Government


that is yet to charter course, is Mirrored on the wider scale. The


country has huge oil and gas revenues, so imports are flowing in.


But hundreds of old Government contracts are now on hold,


unemployment remains high, and this is a reluctance to be taken bf


June's elections produce a new gaest. Do the Libyans understand


what their Government is doing? Not terribly well, I have to be honest.


That whole progress between Government and people, is still a


work in progress. For pretty good reasons. One, the first is the


current depast has a list of priorities - government has a list


of priorities had a would daunt most of us. Communicating what it


is doing, is important for it, but not right at the top. At Misrata


Airport, south of the city, the particlelies of central Government


has led them to take matters into their own hands. Local donations


have paid for a terminal and international services have started.


The city authorities, are exercising increasing autonomy.


have, to be honest, a mixed feeling about this. But sometimes, at the


end, we feel, that things are going to be OK, at the end. We are people,


Libyan people, we know ourselves, although a lot of mistakes has been


done by NCT, and maybe they're not doing the proper job, but it is


important to give them enough time. Time is still short. I mean, they


didn't have enough time, even this transitional government, they


didn't have enough time to work. Does all this suggest that Misrata


or the eastern part of the country might be about to take flight,


breaking Libya apart? Most people here insist not. Although it


Heralds a difficult job for whoever takes over the national controls in


June fl On the outskirts of Misrata, they've gathered together the


wrecks of Gaddafi's army. By laying on all this destruction, a hand


full of NATO Government, Britain, Prince pill among them,


facilitateed the Libyan revolution. Now the same governments are


embarrassed by the revolution's human rights abuses, and bewildered


by the Byzantine manoeuvres of those who governed the country. The


revolutions outside Backers, is run by a dictatorship, now that's done,


power is distributed more fairly, but brutality and mismanagement


remain. Beyond the slogans of freedom, there's little sense here


that anyone now has a strong vision of how this nation should advance.


With me now, the journalist and historian, haste haste haste, Ramy


Aly and Rana Jawad. Haste haste haste you were well known as being


a critic of intervention in Libya, watching that film, how do you feel


today? The best way I can put that is to say a month or two ago, I


asked a senior officer, and I was critical of the Libyan intervention,


after our experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan, western powers should


be cautious about engaging in Muslim societies. I said in terms


to the officer, is it time to say sorry, we apologise, it turned out


right, he said this story is not over yet. It's a difficult one. But,


one thing that made me suspicious of the time of the Libyan


intervention was first of all the House of Commons from a hundred per


cent in favour. When House of Commons is in favour of anything,


it is always wrong. The worst vice of our trade, the media, is we're


always saying something must be done. But the question of Libya,


which others are better qualified to answer than I am, were we


supporting the cause of freedom? Or were we supporting the one faction


in a civil war? You were there throughout the conflict, reporting


an anonymously, in Tripoli. Is the revolution going wrong? It depends


on who you talk to. A lot of pundits, these days feels some


things are going wrong. A lot of Western governments who supported


the uprising are worried, but Libyans on the grouped will tell


you, whatever divisions they have at the moment, are kind of a


natural course of a post revolution Libya. So, there is some worry on


the ground, certainly. But, I think largely, Libyans are optimistic of


what lies ahead. Because in any post-revolution scenario, there are


no guarantees, but many believe there are opportunities now, there


an opportunity to establish the kind of country or democracy that


they've striveing for. The way the intervention began was different


from Iraq and Afghanistan, it was an emergency situation. These tanks


were on the way to Benghazi and Britain and France averted a


massacre? All that is true, and you can't take the parallel too far.


Libya is smaller, and theoretically more manageable. But I think our


record of getting the things wrong, record of insensitive interventions


has been so awful in the last decade we ought to be careful. That


doesn't mean we can't take sides or can't take a view about who deserve


toss come up. But in just the same way as one looks at Syria, nobody


could feel other than a desire to see Assad gone as soon as possible.


But my God, one hopes the West can use its leverageage to encourage


other Muslim society to get involved in that. Maybe I'm being


overcautious, but we got it wrong so oven, to be there again, seems


ghastly prospect. Now the opportunity to look more broadly,


we have been marking one year since the Arab Spring began, Ramy Aly,


look at Egypt disturbing reports of rise of Islam, treatment of women,


do you believe some things going wrong, and the revolutions are


derailed? I don't think the revolutions are being derailed. I


don't think they're Muslim societies as such. There's


systematic problems, in it the states, before these transitions,


and before the fall of the dictators, they're weak, inept, and


incompetent in terms of the institutional struck stur.


Therefore after the dictator is left there's a vacuum and inability


to control, and that's the demais situations where there has been a


Western intervention and in situations where there hasn't been


a Western intervention. In Egypt, we like to think, we have a long-


standing state institution or set of state institutions, and what


we've discovered over the last year, is we don't have such a strong


state. In fact, that, the most prominent part of the state is the


military establishment. They are now ruling. It is business as usual.


And so, will has actually been so institutional change in those


states, and that's the problem. That before, the fall of the


dictators, you have weak state institutions and that's the case


afterwards. But, it is a striking contrast, when you think back to a


year ago, we were all sitting reporting on the amazing events.


When you look at so many countries in the region, even the homogenous


ones, it seems people are more divided today than a year ago?


Libyans you talk to, will argue they're not divided in principle,


they want a unified country in the future, and they are all working


towards the same goal. That is some form of a democratic state, and


minus a dictator, this time around. But, I think the divisions we're


seeing today is really just a product of what a 42-year


dictatorship leaves behind. In Libya, in particular, people forget


that because the regime, systematically, did away with any


form of civil societies, and institutions, they have very little


to build on. They are literally starting from scratch. We can't go


on about how Egypt and Tunisia, are having to rebuild the institutions


but they have some form of base. What I tend to agree against my own


argument is to some degree, it was never going to be easy. At the end


of an experience such as Libya has sufd, there was never a chance, it


was going to build a society. So, I don't think one could have expected,


if you lived in a society Libya has been, revenge, brutality is bound


to happen. So that's one has to accept. My concern, which extends


to other parts of the Middle East, it is important these societies


should be seen to be doing things in their own way, not to have the


West. We've had people accusing West getting stuck in Libya because


we're interested in the oil. It seems terribly important they


shouldn't advance the argument. This is another case of western


interference. It would be a no, no, to intervene in Syria and Iraq?


is impossible to intervene in Syria, partly because Syria has powerful


friends. And in an ideal world, the question is which Muslim society,


other Muslim societies will be getting stuck in, and we would be


one removed, through a Muslim society, the problem is which


Muslim society? Why is there such a concern about Muslim societies, you


said the rise of political Islam. Islam is not a problem in of itself.


I am not a Islamist in a political sense. I don't see the problems as


being attached to some kind of income mensable religious scenario.


It is a matter of institutions and state building. It may or may not


be in the interest of particular allys to intervene. Thank you very


much all of you. Now, just a word about tomorrow's Newsnight, when


our economic reporter reports in Greece, how the country is in daing


of disintegrating under economic collapse and extremeism. People say


that if they're continuing of this, we have buy a gun. That's all from


me. Stephanie will be here tomorrow ? Weather come the weekend, at the


moment it is mild out there. Maybe a touch of frost around dawn, in


Scotland and north-east of England. Frost-free on Friday, rain


returning northwards into north west England and Wales. Some


persistent so a damp day here. Midlands, East Anglia, mid-


afternoon, a lot of cloud, breezy, but temperatures, higher than today.


So well up into double figures. The odd spot of drizzle across west


Devon and Cornwall. A nuisance there. For Wales, drab, a cloudy


and dachness pushing up across Snowdonia, through the day. For


norld, persistent rain for a time, but dribs and drabs of rain through


the rest of the afternoon. It turns west across Scotland. Miserable


here, east of the hills dry and bright, but just as mild as it was


on Thursday. Friday and Saturday across northern parts of the UK,


change in the weather, turns colder with wintry showers developing by


the weekend. Further south, takes longer for the cold weather to


With Rupert Murdoch due to fly in to save The Sun newspaper, does the British press have a future? Is working for no pay the way to tackle unemployment? Plus, post-Gaddafi Libya a year after the uprising.

Presented by Mishal Husain.

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