16/02/2012 Newsnight


16/02/2012

In-depth news analysis with Mishal Husain. As Rupert Murdoch tries to save The Sun, does the British press have a future? Is working for no pay the way to tackle unemployment?


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Tonight - hacking, a newspaper axed, falling sales, and an ongoing

:00:08.:00:14.

bribery investigation - the British press is in crisis as never before.

:00:14.:00:17.

Forty years after flying in to buy the Sun, Rupert Murdoch is back to

:00:17.:00:27.

try and save it but are his shareholders losing patience?

:00:27.:00:33.

corps was phone as good news and bad news and toxic news.

:00:33.:00:37.

Do we need to protect our newspapers, or have they had their

:00:37.:00:41.

day? Also tonight, celebrations a year after the uprising began in

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Libya. But though Gaddafi has gone, brutality and divisions remainment

:00:47.:00:51.

TRANSLATION: I received an an anonymous call telling me my son

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was shot and his body was on the beach. We'll discuss the mixed

:00:57.:01:00.

blessings the Arab Spring has brought across the region. Is this

:01:00.:01:05.

job advert the solution to Britain's unemployment problem? Is

:01:05.:01:15.
:01:15.:01:18.

it valuable experience or just Good evening. 97 years ago Keith

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myrhh myrhh came to work in London as a reporter, tonight his son flew

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in prepared to address the staff at his newspapers tomorrow. Does the

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industry that laid the foundation of the global myrhh myrhh empire

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even have a future? Newspapers are battling falling sales, legal

:01:39.:01:45.

defeats and arrests. The House of Lords suggest the subsidies might

:01:45.:01:52.

be needed for the investigative journalism a democracy needs.

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Read all about it! Rupert flies in to meet the staff they fear he

:01:56.:02:04.

might drop them in the mire. Journalism is in jeopardy. You

:02:04.:02:08.

might not need to stop the presses, they could be grinding to a halt

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anyway. According to a House of Lords committee, there's a crisis

:02:12.:02:15.

over investigative journalism - the sort that digs out material,

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Government, corporations the powerful, would prefer would be

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kept hidden. Serious investigative journalism is changing. In the past

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year the wireed world has brought us the wholesale revelations of

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Wikileaks and information disk about MPs expenses. Both stories

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were bought by newspapers, but both needed journalist toss mediate. The

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Lords said the expense exclusive brings the point. They needed a

:02:46.:02:50.

huge amount of work to analyse that disk, they need to be experts in

:02:50.:02:55.

data analysis and unrolling the story over time of the number of

:02:55.:02:59.

journalists engaipblgdz obthat story was enormous. It takes time

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to stand up a story Time and expertise and resource, basically,

:03:04.:03:09.

yes. The problem is declieping circulation. The national press,

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down by a quarter over seven million in a decade. Revenues

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moving elsewhere, journalism going digital and trying to work out how

:03:20.:03:25.

to make money in the progress. A media analyst maintaining

:03:25.:03:30.

investigative work can flourish scales of journalists have to be

:03:30.:03:33.

turned to the analysts to the massive amount of Government data

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that is produced. We are living in an era the ability to put the data

:03:39.:03:44.

and come up with stories is rich. Snees the sort of thing your

:03:45.:03:49.

company is involved in. Who will pay for a journalist to take a

:03:49.:03:53.

flight overseas, to meet a source? You don't understand how the expert

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networks of today have developed. We are a looking at worldwide

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networks. Everyone I know in journalism, economics, or academic

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life has got an expert network which is vast and always growing.

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Someone always has to foot the bill. At News International the Sun has

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long seemed a strange bed fellow for the Times and Sunday Times.

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While the Sun's profits paid for the losses the Times people held

:04:22.:04:26.

their noses. After this week's arrests however the Sun could

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become a legal lieability. It reported today, News Corporation's

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passed the police claims the Sun has regularly been paying public

:04:35.:04:40.

officials as much as �10,000. A Sun journalists are talking of hiring a

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human rights lawyer to defend themselves against their own

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company. We've been contacted by journalists

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who are anxious about their futures at News International and who fear

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there are going to be more arrests. We've been contacted by a number of

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members of the public, who have been sources at some point in their,

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in recent years to journalists at News International, and they fear

:05:04.:05:09.

their confidentiality is being compromiseed and they simply don't

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understand how their details and their relationships with the

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journalists have been surrendered by the company. Lord Clement-Jones

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says the legal uncertainties are a problem? I think it cast a pall on

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the future. This is why we've gone into detail about the way that, for

:05:27.:05:33.

instance the DPP should look at charging journalists in these

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circumstances. We think a set of guidelines and in fact, they have

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accepted the need for guidelines on prosecution, that's important.

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what is and isn't in the public interest? Absolutely. It looks how

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the newspaper itself behaves. it pay a public official under the

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criteria? That will be extremely doubtful F there was a scandal

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uncovered, only through that process, then the DPP might decide

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although an offence had been been committed, technically he did not

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wish to prosecute. While Leveson winds on the Lords and legendary

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hacks threat about the future. Rupert Murdoch will likely issue

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soothing words tomorrow, he is sentimental about his newspapers.

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It is journalism of the expensive investigative kind that revealed

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the scandal which could yet see Fleet Street go foot.

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With me is the jourp list, Joan Smith formerly of the Sunday Times

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which has been a victim of phone hacking. Phil Hall of the News of

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the World and Carla Buzasi, from The Huffington Post. How do you

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think Rupert Murdoch will handle things in Wapping in the morning?

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It is difficult for him. He was a great campaigner in his own right

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when he took over the business. He will have contradictions deep in

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his soul, because you would expect a newspaper to fight in the

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application by any authority to find out who their sources are. It

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is cornerstone, underpins newspapers that they have the right

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to protect their sources. Now he was amendment revealing sources to

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the police. So, for the people who work at the Sun, there's the

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journalistic principle, like every other journalist is brought up, and

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the feeling the amendment is shopping them? I have a business,

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with people, whistle-blowers, would you go to News International to

:07:30.:07:34.

somebody who doesn't want to be identified who is potentially going

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to find the people who run the company to identify them f you're

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unable to break stories, in the newspaper you're finished. Is it as

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broad as that is this Two separate things, one we have a problem about

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investigative journalism and that's about resource, and about agenda.

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So newspapers have moved away from the expensive thing of doing,

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investigations which take months if not years, looking at for example,

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the Guardian's investigation to phone hacking. These stories don't

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produce instant results and proprietors want that. The rhetoric.

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All this is getting overblown. When I worked for the Sunday Times, we

:08:13.:08:18.

had a good story if true, we're hearing a lot about how sources are

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handed over, and journalists are being betrayed. We don't know

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that's what has happened. What the News International committee who is

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looking into this, they are looking at payments of maybe tens of

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thousands to people, who were coverting effectively on the

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paper's pay roll and employers didn't know that, and they were

:08:39.:08:44.

public servants. We don't know, at the moment which of those things is

:08:44.:08:50.

predominating, and I don't think this is about somebody having lunch

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with somebody and that's handed over to the police, it is more

:08:54.:08:59.

serious. If it is as serious ending up with the demise of the Sun, you

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as a victim of phone hacking, would you mourn its loss? This is the

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trouble with binary opposition. The question is it is not do we have

:09:13.:09:17.

sensationalism journalism, used criminal methods, or do we have no

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journalism at all. We want investigative journalism, Rupert

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Murdoch does not have to close the Sun, he didn't have to close the

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News of the World, he had to ensure ethical standards were followed

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followed and they could flourish in the end.

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Presumably a website like yours, would stand to be the winner, if

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this is the death knell for newspapers? When the News of the

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World closed last year, which was the week you launched, people said

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there's a whole new audience who will log on your website. That's

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not how I see t people are buying their newspapers, but they're

:09:57.:10:00.

getting news from websites and they're using the two. It would be

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sad if we saw the demise of all the newspaper brands we've grown up

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with, and love in this country. Website like the The Huffington

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Post and others which will launch in the years to come, are are, this

:10:11.:10:15.

is where the media's going, this is the future, but lots of the

:10:15.:10:19.

publications have digital arms as well, which are important to the

:10:19.:10:24.

future of their businesses. Phil Hall the old-fashioned newspaper,

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how much trouble is it? Newspapers feel set the agenda and the

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internet, will take it up and run with it. The bigger problem is

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breaking any big story. I was talking to a national newspaper

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editor and he said I can't break anything, because Twitter will

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break it out before I do. Their agents or PRs are Twittering it and

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geting it out there, and control theing, it is hard to break a big

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story. Without resources, investigative stories don't break.

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I had a team, and sometimes we would break one story every three

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months. It is a fatal decline, you souped as if the game is up? It is

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up as we've known it. They have to change quickly. One of the issues

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newspapers has had, is that traditional prooperatetors, bought

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internet businesses and expect them to run as they ran their old

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industry. You have to let people expert in that field and adapt.

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you adapt successfully, is there a way to make the newspaper

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profitable again? The question about business models has been

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around for a long time. One of the problems is newspapers embrace the

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internet, rush to place content on the internet and didn't think how

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they're going to get any return on that. And when people say to me, I

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will not pay for news on the internet. What I say is you want

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people to go to places like Afghanistan and Syria, and possibly

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have their legs blown off and killed and you're not willing to

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pay access to the website. We have to make people understand, free

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content on the internet is not free to the people who put it there.

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foreign journalism, investigative journalism, Carla Buzasi that is

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the domain of the newspapers? The The Huffington Post isn't known for

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investigative journalism isn't known at the minute? We're a small

:12:27.:12:31.

operation, but looking at the US arm, who have hundreds of

:12:31.:12:36.

journalists, we've had people in Syria and Greece, and internet

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newspaper sites like ours, as we grow and build a reputation, that

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is absolutely is an area we have to play in, because people with coming

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to expect us to break the stories. Is that the future, will they pick

:12:48.:12:55.

up the flak? It is developing all the time, newspapers will move on-

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line, because technology will facilitate that. It will make

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newspapers more accessible, there are approximates, where you can

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access The Huffington Post, Facebook and Twitter and newspaper

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all on the same page. So, it would develop, but newspapers have to

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develop with it. This model that needs international, that

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successfully ran, was that the News of the World was known for scoops

:13:20.:13:26.

and investigative journalism, the Sun not so much, but they cross-

:13:26.:13:30.

subsidised? You have to understand the myrhh myrhh's passion for

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newspapers kept them alive. It doesn't make money, but at the

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moment he can't sell a company, which has lawsuits going on, and

:13:37.:13:40.

around the clock. Until you know what the value of that is, it will

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be hard for him to sell those newspapers. At the moment, they're

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giving him 1% of the profit and 100% of the bad publicity.

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Something will break. How do you think it will end up for the Sun

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and News International? I hope, I'm a journalist, I don't want to see

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newspapers close. What I do want to see is a different kind of

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journalism and rebalancing of what people actually are offered to read.

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I think, newspaper, consumers are in a way passive. If what they're

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offered is a constant diet of articles about Big Brother, they're

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not going to be saying, they're not covering the trial of a dissent in

:14:20.:14:24.

bella rus, if you change the balance, that you have the populous

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stuff, and you have to have newspapers doing the investigations

:14:28.:14:34.

and looking at the workings of: Perhaps there's not popular

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appetite? It is necessary in a democracy that newspapers do that,

:14:38.:14:42.

and that's why they're zero rate for VAT, that's that's an

:14:42.:14:47.

understanding of the role in society, which goes beyond their

:14:47.:14:50.

commercial existence. To save them, tax breaks this, is what the House

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of Lords was suggesting today? How do you feel? Looking at that,

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digital have been forgotten, they hadn't thought about the websites

:14:59.:15:02.

at all. There was interesting things in what came out of the

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House of Lords today. But they've got to acknowledge digital is a

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large part of the tri, and it will be bigger going forward. I don't

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think tax breaks to local newspapers is the answer.

:15:15.:15:18.

Successful newspaper industry has to remain independent. Tax breaks

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link Government to newspapers, and independence is important if

:15:22.:15:29.

they're to survive. Thank you very much. Now, a stormer erupt on

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Twitter and Facebook, after a job advert offered a night shift

:15:34.:15:38.

position in Tesco in Suffolk. The pay was listed as jobseeker's

:15:38.:15:42.

allowance plus expenses which would be cheaptor permanent staff. Tesco

:15:42.:15:45.

admitted it made a mistake and the job was work experience, offered as

:15:45.:15:50.

part of a Government scheme. But should that work experience be paid

:15:50.:15:54.

at the going rate? Liz Mackean has been looking into it. An

:15:54.:16:00.

opportunity to work for Britain's largest private sector employer -

:16:00.:16:05.

the job based in East Anglia is for the niest shift. If the hoursant

:16:05.:16:12.

punishing enough, consider the pay, instead of wages, you keep your

:16:13.:16:20.

jobseeker's allowance, that's �53 .43 a week, way below the minimum

:16:20.:16:26.

wage. Tesco say the advert is a mistake and is being rectified. The

:16:26.:16:31.

error was to describe the job as "permanent" when it is part of a

:16:31.:16:35.

Government work experience scheme. So the whole thing was a clerical

:16:35.:16:39.

error by Jobcentre Plus, which operates the scheme and it's

:16:39.:16:44.

protected a fewer yu. One of many comments told Tesco it was

:16:44.:16:51.

exploiting the jobless. It highlights the scheme is allowing

:16:51.:16:59.

employer to take on a workforce paid for by tax pairs. Searching a

:16:59.:17:04.

job site, we came across many errors, offers of permanent jobs

:17:04.:17:09.

without wages. A spokesman for the Department of Work and pences told

:17:09.:17:15.

us it was: And the site was amended. The work experience placements

:17:15.:17:19.

target those who need extra help in getting a job. They run for up to

:17:19.:17:23.

eight weeks and unlike the work programme are voluntary. Though

:17:23.:17:27.

anyone not completeing the scheme risks losing benefits. In actual

:17:27.:17:34.

fact all you get for doing the jobs is jobseeker's allowance, and then

:17:34.:17:42.

you're lucky a interview, but no guarantee. That's a company that

:17:42.:17:46.

made �3.8 billion profit last year. It is not right that fer they're

:17:47.:17:52.

forced to do this work for no pay. It is no surprise it is called a

:17:52.:17:56.

form of modern slavery. Certainly not by the Prime Minister, who

:17:56.:18:00.

heaped praise on the scheme on a trip to Asda's last month. On the

:18:00.:18:04.

work experience places, we're doing 250,000 of them, we're finding

:18:04.:18:10.

within two months, half of them are coming off benefit. There's a

:18:10.:18:13.

relatively inexpensive scheme. big companies are distanceing

:18:13.:18:18.

themselves. Water stons told usz, us it does not encourage work for

:18:18.:18:22.

no pay and is not involved in this scheme. When it discovered one of

:18:22.:18:28.

the stores was involved, it ordered it to stop. Sainsbury's which

:18:28.:18:36.

operates its own initiative called You Can, says last year over 4,300

:18:36.:18:40.

colleagues were retained following a placement. The Government says it

:18:40.:18:44.

is part of the public good. But what about those taking part? The

:18:44.:18:48.

Government say they're getting the experience they need to help them

:18:48.:18:53.

find jobs, and with young people in particular, so badly affected by

:18:53.:18:57.

rising unemployment, the coalition is under pressure to show its range

:18:57.:19:04.

of work programmes, are themselves, working. The DWP is considering how

:19:04.:19:08.

to extend the scheme to some of they say on disability benefits, if

:19:08.:19:14.

they're judged able to work. Added sorrow cats say there are wider

:19:14.:19:18.

benefits to the programme. There is a slight programme large firms such

:19:18.:19:24.

as Tesco may sues this as a way of getting short-term labour, at the

:19:24.:19:29.

taxpayers expense. But that's gravely overstated, that any such

:19:29.:19:34.

problem that does exist, will get weighed by the benefits the

:19:34.:19:37.

jobseekers get from the programme. It sorts out the problems that dend

:19:37.:19:42.

to exist, where you get a black market with people claiming

:19:42.:19:46.

benefits while at the same time working informally in the black

:19:46.:19:50.

economy. Tesco claims 300 young people have gone on to get

:19:50.:19:55.

permanent employment with us, and the scheme is not a replacement or

:19:55.:20:02.

substitute for your permanent staff. The great rate of expansion by the

:20:02.:20:06.

big supermarkets, means they're creating tens of thousands of new

:20:06.:20:11.

jobs. But the accusation that their immense profits are in part built

:20:11.:20:17.

by taxpayer workers is difficult for the political cheerleaders. Is

:20:17.:20:24.

this scheme right? Can it help? Will Straw and Neil O'Brien of

:20:24.:20:29.

Policy Exchange are with me. The question is why should taxpayers

:20:29.:20:38.

money, your money and my money go to Tesco's so it can have shelves

:20:38.:20:42.

done overnight? The New Deal, that means people out of work for a long

:20:43.:20:48.

time, are encourageed to get work experience. If you're on benefit,

:20:48.:20:51.

you can get trapped you can't get a job because you don't have

:20:51.:20:54.

experience. If you let people live on benefits for a long time, it

:20:54.:20:58.

gets harder for them to get into work. All parties have enkourplged

:20:58.:21:03.

them to do the projects. This is, this job, for instance the

:21:03.:21:08.

overnight shift at a Tesco in Suffolk, and we found many jobs

:21:08.:21:13.

like that, advertised on the website, that's not work experience

:21:13.:21:17.

in experience, that is a job that needs to be done, it is not a

:21:17.:21:22.

skilled job? Clearly in this case, a few people, hundreds of people

:21:22.:21:26.

have got jobs at the end of the scheme. We do need to be careful,

:21:26.:21:31.

what the project are for. Is it for a short-term experience, or

:21:31.:21:35.

something that aims to defer people staying on benefits. If it is the

:21:35.:21:39.

later, we need to avoid doing what placements displace other jobs, so

:21:39.:21:45.

we don't take away the jobs at people at Tesco for example. In

:21:45.:21:53.

those schemes, it might be good creating additional like cleaning

:21:53.:21:58.

up schemes, in Australia and US and so on. The underlying principle is

:21:58.:22:04.

in order to get job seek he is allowance, it is good to be doing

:22:04.:22:09.

something in return? I don't think any Government would be opposed to

:22:09.:22:12.

get people off welfare and into work. The problem is you've people

:22:12.:22:18.

out of work for a long time, we now know there's more than a million

:22:18.:22:21.

youth unemployment, and long-term unemployment is going up, where

:22:21.:22:25.

people are out of the workforce for a long time, it is harder to get

:22:25.:22:30.

them back in the Labour force. The question is how do you do that. The

:22:30.:22:33.

Labour Party brought in work experience, but it is not

:22:33.:22:37.

compulsory. This compels you, while it is doing that, it takes you away

:22:37.:22:41.

from other work and training. What Labour had at the last Labour

:22:41.:22:45.

government was the Future Jobs Fund, this is a scheme that gave people

:22:45.:22:49.

proper work for a minimum number of hours a week, properly paid with

:22:49.:22:53.

time to get training, the Government scrapped that scheme,

:22:53.:22:56.

even though it is proved to be successful. That's a difficulty,

:22:56.:23:01.

because the new schemes are open to abuse, as you have shown in the

:23:01.:23:05.

package and cause problems for those trying to get in the Labour

:23:05.:23:08.

market. Is this those already in work that have a better chance of

:23:08.:23:13.

getting the job they want? That's right, I'm absolutely saying, you

:23:13.:23:16.

have to give the people opportunity to get into work. The Future Jobs

:23:16.:23:21.

Fund was finding about 50% people in that scheme were getting back

:23:21.:23:25.

into work. That may not sound a lot, but compared to people who aren't

:23:25.:23:29.

in work, struggling to get in the Labour market. The other thing is

:23:29.:23:32.

the Government did this they claimed to save money. It cost them

:23:33.:23:38.

half a billion pounds a wear yaer to do it. The study, the work

:23:38.:23:43.

provider, and David Miliband did last week, showed the costs of the

:23:43.:23:48.

Exchequer, from higher unemployment benefits, and lost tax revenue,

:23:48.:23:53.

went into the billions. They saved a little bit but lost a lot. How do

:23:53.:23:57.

you feel, the suggestion this will be extend today disabled people,

:23:57.:24:01.

those judge fit to work, what does that mean? You say disabled, these

:24:01.:24:06.

are people fit to work. That broadly speak something a

:24:06.:24:11.

continuation what's gone on before. When you said under last Government,

:24:11.:24:15.

you couldn't be forced you could, that was the right thing to do. The

:24:15.:24:20.

public think this is fair. 80% agree with the idea if you've been

:24:20.:24:24.

on benefit for more than a year, you should be asked to do work in

:24:24.:24:27.

exchange for the benefits. In the since sense there are millions of

:24:28.:24:31.

people, going out to work, working hard, not necessarily for a lot of

:24:31.:24:36.

money, and you have some people, not most people on Ben filts, but

:24:36.:24:41.

could be moving into work and aren't at the moment. So if we

:24:41.:24:46.

could get the benefit system to tailor people's problems. If being

:24:46.:24:51.

the operateive word there. There is an image problem, water stons

:24:51.:24:55.

saying it is not good for the reputation, to be involved, if it

:24:55.:24:58.

ends up get ago rolled out to disabled people as well, there will

:24:58.:25:03.

be less takeup for it. Who would want to be associated with it?

:25:03.:25:09.

we need to do is have a tailored system. At the moment for example,

:25:09.:25:13.

the DW., have thousands of people on drug users, in the first

:25:13.:25:19.

interview, in a Jobcentre, we don't ask you for that kind of thing. We

:25:20.:25:24.

don't identify people's problems and segment people's needs of

:25:24.:25:27.

disabilities and the problem is at the moment, we wait for a year to

:25:27.:25:30.

see who get a job We'll discuss if the whole industry is now under

:25:30.:25:34.

threat and do we need to protect our newspapers or have they had

:25:34.:25:37.

their day? And see who doesn't. The problem with that, it is cheap, but

:25:37.:25:40.

if we leave people for a year, after a year, they're rusted and

:25:40.:25:44.

got depressed, it is hard, they have a hole in their CV, so it

:25:44.:25:50.

would be better to target the help and the programmes on day one of

:25:50.:25:56.

their claim. Thank you both. Now, one year ago, something new and

:25:56.:26:02.

unthinkable was beginning on the streets of Benghazi, 40 years of

:26:02.:26:06.

protests, you know how the story ends, at least the story of Gaddafi

:26:06.:26:11.

himself. How will the Libyan story end. At the end of our week of

:26:11.:26:20.

films, Mark Urban has been back to Libya, amid report of lawlessness

:26:20.:26:27.

and torture. Some images are disturbing. It is a time of

:26:27.:26:34.

celebration for the fighters. The other night, different big gaids

:26:34.:26:39.

that seized this city last August, took to the streets, in an

:26:39.:26:47.

exuberant show of force. Who could have foreseen it one year ago?

:26:47.:26:53.

of February, 2011 - this is the day which all people will never forget.

:26:53.:27:02.

They take it this is the date where everybody is born on that day.

:27:02.:27:12.
:27:12.:27:14.

didn't believe that we have this sort of energy has been exploded at

:27:14.:27:21.

once, in one day in the whole country. We nef thought this

:27:21.:27:28.

revolution was going to succeed because we know the amount of power

:27:28.:27:34.

and what Gaddafi used to do to suppress or to put down any

:27:34.:27:39.

revolution or any movement against him you know. This is Tripoli

:27:39.:27:43.

street in Misrata, the city was attacked by Gaddafi's forces last

:27:43.:27:49.

spring and fighting raged along this axes for months. More than

:27:49.:27:54.

1500 people from Misrata, died in the struggle. And as a city emerged

:27:54.:28:02.

with a steely sense of self- reliance. They all went to the

:28:02.:28:08.

front line together, as friends, as family supporting each other.

:28:08.:28:12.

Anybody died, they all cried for him. And anybody wounded the all

:28:12.:28:21.

knew him and all cried for him up to now. So, the city, as united as

:28:21.:28:26.

knitted together as one client, and up to now, they still support each

:28:26.:28:30.

other. They are not relying too much on the government, they don't

:28:30.:28:37.

have much from the government. Further down the street, a war

:28:37.:28:41.

museum welcomes pre-school children or passers by, taking pride of

:28:41.:28:47.

place outside is a sculpture seized from Gaddafi's compound - a trophy

:28:47.:28:56.

brought back by militias and symbol of and an old centralised system of

:28:56.:29:03.

power smashed. All this destructive power at his disposal was obviously

:29:03.:29:06.

enormously invigorateing for the country people still have

:29:06.:29:10.

tremendous positive feeling about the revolution x But what you're

:29:10.:29:15.

also hearing increasingly, is concerns being expressed by the

:29:15.:29:20.

apparent grip or leadership at the top, and fears the gains of the

:29:20.:29:26.

revolution might be squandered. In Libya though, with victory has come

:29:26.:29:31.

revenge. We went to a camp on the outskirts of Tripoli to meet

:29:31.:29:36.

members of this tribe who fled their homes. They gave this footage

:29:36.:29:44.

of an attack when eight people were killed at the camp. The tribe blame

:29:44.:29:48.

the militia for chasing 30,000 of them out of their homes, and

:29:49.:29:53.

pursueing some here. Most now are too frieltened to be filmed, and

:29:53.:30:02.

the authorities wouldn't let us in. But Attiya Mahjoub told us how his

:30:02.:30:08.

13-year-old son had been killed. TRANSLATION: I received an an

:30:08.:30:11.

anonymous call in the middle of the night telling my son was shot and

:30:11.:30:15.

his body was on the beach. I was too afraid to go there at midnight

:30:15.:30:19.

and went the next morning, but I couldn't find it. The police

:30:19.:30:28.

informed me my son's body was at the hospital.

:30:28.:30:34.

The accusation is war crimes, the Government say there's little they

:30:34.:30:41.

can do to protect the refugees. They went on Monday's attack, came

:30:41.:30:47.

here, but he said we can't do anything. We will try to save you,

:30:47.:30:53.

we will try to bring these people away, we stayed five days, nobody

:30:53.:31:01.

came here to save us. The militias have kept unit in Tripoli and in

:31:01.:31:06.

common with other armed groups, they stand accused of operating as

:31:06.:31:14.

a law on themselves. Asked about alleged attacks on the tribe,

:31:14.:31:18.

representatives emphasised the crimes of Gaddafi's followers.

:31:18.:31:24.

we went nobody was there, they had left, they've done a crime, we will

:31:25.:31:29.

never slaughter them as you mentioned, we would nef do that.

:31:29.:31:37.

And we will never do this to any other Libyans. We captureed them

:31:37.:31:43.

and take them to the justice. charge of persecuting those

:31:43.:31:48.

suspected of backing the old order, runs broader than one tribe. This

:31:48.:31:52.

is one of dozens of makeshift prisons across the country, where

:31:52.:31:57.

the revolution stands accused of locking up more than 8,000 people.

:31:57.:32:01.

There have been allegations of torture, and detainees have no idea

:32:01.:32:07.

when they might be tried or released. All of which is very

:32:07.:32:11.

awkward for the foreign allies. made it clear to the Government and

:32:11.:32:18.

to the NTC, on the occasions when this issue has arisen. It is hugely

:32:18.:32:23.

important to us. That they do, differentiate themselves from the

:32:23.:32:30.

previous regime. That they do, in practice, follow through on what

:32:30.:32:37.

they have been consistent in saying publicly, that they support the

:32:37.:32:43.

highest international standards of human rights. And that they address

:32:43.:32:47.

those problems that arise, those incidents that arise where

:32:47.:32:54.

allegations are made of mistreatment, torture. A sense that

:32:54.:32:59.

scores are settled, and security somewhat tenuous, can be felt in

:32:59.:33:05.

the country's banks. I think the security is OK now.

:33:05.:33:11.

Because, there's some security of the bank. There's every day, three

:33:11.:33:18.

or four people with guns, and it is OK. But, it is dangerous to get

:33:18.:33:24.

dollars in the bank. Businesses complain of a shortage of cash to

:33:24.:33:32.

pay staff. The situation exacerbated by 15 dina bills handed

:33:32.:33:36.

in today. The high denomination notes was thought to be used by

:33:36.:33:44.

Gaddafi supporters or hoarded by those fears the worse. For

:33:44.:33:48.

businessmen, a shortage of cash is one of the biggest daily challenges.

:33:48.:33:53.

He made a major investment, in this new electronic shop in Tripoli.

:33:53.:33:58.

But he's delighted that old-style Gaddafi crony capitalism is gone.

:33:58.:34:04.

For example I can, within one day, I can make all the documents to

:34:04.:34:10.

make a new company. To run a new business. For example,

:34:10.:34:14.

I will not get projects soon because we know the financial

:34:14.:34:23.

problem in the country is still not stable. But at least, I can set

:34:23.:34:30.

myself up to be ready for getting project. That sense of a Government

:34:30.:34:35.

that is yet to charter course, is Mirrored on the wider scale. The

:34:35.:34:40.

country has huge oil and gas revenues, so imports are flowing in.

:34:40.:34:45.

But hundreds of old Government contracts are now on hold,

:34:45.:34:51.

unemployment remains high, and this is a reluctance to be taken bf

:34:51.:34:54.

June's elections produce a new gaest. Do the Libyans understand

:34:54.:35:00.

what their Government is doing? Not terribly well, I have to be honest.

:35:00.:35:05.

That whole progress between Government and people, is still a

:35:05.:35:13.

work in progress. For pretty good reasons. One, the first is the

:35:13.:35:18.

current depast has a list of priorities - government has a list

:35:18.:35:22.

of priorities had a would daunt most of us. Communicating what it

:35:22.:35:29.

is doing, is important for it, but not right at the top. At Misrata

:35:29.:35:32.

Airport, south of the city, the particlelies of central Government

:35:32.:35:39.

has led them to take matters into their own hands. Local donations

:35:39.:35:42.

have paid for a terminal and international services have started.

:35:43.:35:47.

The city authorities, are exercising increasing autonomy.

:35:47.:35:52.

have, to be honest, a mixed feeling about this. But sometimes, at the

:35:52.:36:01.

end, we feel, that things are going to be OK, at the end. We are people,

:36:01.:36:08.

Libyan people, we know ourselves, although a lot of mistakes has been

:36:09.:36:16.

done by NCT, and maybe they're not doing the proper job, but it is

:36:16.:36:21.

important to give them enough time. Time is still short. I mean, they

:36:21.:36:27.

didn't have enough time, even this transitional government, they

:36:27.:36:32.

didn't have enough time to work. Does all this suggest that Misrata

:36:32.:36:37.

or the eastern part of the country might be about to take flight,

:36:37.:36:44.

breaking Libya apart? Most people here insist not. Although it

:36:44.:36:48.

Heralds a difficult job for whoever takes over the national controls in

:36:48.:36:52.

June fl On the outskirts of Misrata, they've gathered together the

:36:52.:36:58.

wrecks of Gaddafi's army. By laying on all this destruction, a hand

:36:58.:37:05.

full of NATO Government, Britain, Prince pill among them,

:37:05.:37:08.

facilitateed the Libyan revolution. Now the same governments are

:37:08.:37:15.

embarrassed by the revolution's human rights abuses, and bewildered

:37:15.:37:21.

by the Byzantine manoeuvres of those who governed the country. The

:37:21.:37:29.

revolutions outside Backers, is run by a dictatorship, now that's done,

:37:29.:37:34.

power is distributed more fairly, but brutality and mismanagement

:37:34.:37:38.

remain. Beyond the slogans of freedom, there's little sense here

:37:38.:37:43.

that anyone now has a strong vision of how this nation should advance.

:37:43.:37:50.

With me now, the journalist and historian, haste haste haste, Ramy

:37:50.:37:54.

Aly and Rana Jawad. Haste haste haste you were well known as being

:37:54.:37:59.

a critic of intervention in Libya, watching that film, how do you feel

:37:59.:38:05.

today? The best way I can put that is to say a month or two ago, I

:38:05.:38:09.

asked a senior officer, and I was critical of the Libyan intervention,

:38:09.:38:13.

after our experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan, western powers should

:38:13.:38:18.

be cautious about engaging in Muslim societies. I said in terms

:38:18.:38:24.

to the officer, is it time to say sorry, we apologise, it turned out

:38:24.:38:29.

right, he said this story is not over yet. It's a difficult one. But,

:38:29.:38:33.

one thing that made me suspicious of the time of the Libyan

:38:33.:38:37.

intervention was first of all the House of Commons from a hundred per

:38:37.:38:40.

cent in favour. When House of Commons is in favour of anything,

:38:40.:38:46.

it is always wrong. The worst vice of our trade, the media, is we're

:38:46.:38:50.

always saying something must be done. But the question of Libya,

:38:50.:38:54.

which others are better qualified to answer than I am, were we

:38:54.:38:59.

supporting the cause of freedom? Or were we supporting the one faction

:38:59.:39:05.

in a civil war? You were there throughout the conflict, reporting

:39:05.:39:08.

an anonymously, in Tripoli. Is the revolution going wrong? It depends

:39:08.:39:13.

on who you talk to. A lot of pundits, these days feels some

:39:13.:39:19.

things are going wrong. A lot of Western governments who supported

:39:19.:39:24.

the uprising are worried, but Libyans on the grouped will tell

:39:24.:39:29.

you, whatever divisions they have at the moment, are kind of a

:39:29.:39:35.

natural course of a post revolution Libya. So, there is some worry on

:39:35.:39:41.

the ground, certainly. But, I think largely, Libyans are optimistic of

:39:41.:39:47.

what lies ahead. Because in any post-revolution scenario, there are

:39:47.:39:52.

no guarantees, but many believe there are opportunities now, there

:39:52.:39:56.

an opportunity to establish the kind of country or democracy that

:39:56.:40:00.

they've striveing for. The way the intervention began was different

:40:00.:40:03.

from Iraq and Afghanistan, it was an emergency situation. These tanks

:40:03.:40:08.

were on the way to Benghazi and Britain and France averted a

:40:08.:40:13.

massacre? All that is true, and you can't take the parallel too far.

:40:13.:40:18.

Libya is smaller, and theoretically more manageable. But I think our

:40:18.:40:24.

record of getting the things wrong, record of insensitive interventions

:40:24.:40:28.

has been so awful in the last decade we ought to be careful. That

:40:28.:40:32.

doesn't mean we can't take sides or can't take a view about who deserve

:40:32.:40:37.

toss come up. But in just the same way as one looks at Syria, nobody

:40:37.:40:42.

could feel other than a desire to see Assad gone as soon as possible.

:40:42.:40:48.

But my God, one hopes the West can use its leverageage to encourage

:40:48.:40:53.

other Muslim society to get involved in that. Maybe I'm being

:40:53.:40:59.

overcautious, but we got it wrong so oven, to be there again, seems

:40:59.:41:02.

ghastly prospect. Now the opportunity to look more broadly,

:41:02.:41:10.

we have been marking one year since the Arab Spring began, Ramy Aly,

:41:10.:41:14.

look at Egypt disturbing reports of rise of Islam, treatment of women,

:41:14.:41:18.

do you believe some things going wrong, and the revolutions are

:41:18.:41:23.

derailed? I don't think the revolutions are being derailed. I

:41:23.:41:26.

don't think they're Muslim societies as such. There's

:41:26.:41:28.

systematic problems, in it the states, before these transitions,

:41:29.:41:34.

and before the fall of the dictators, they're weak, inept, and

:41:34.:41:37.

incompetent in terms of the institutional struck stur.

:41:37.:41:40.

Therefore after the dictator is left there's a vacuum and inability

:41:40.:41:44.

to control, and that's the demais situations where there has been a

:41:44.:41:49.

Western intervention and in situations where there hasn't been

:41:49.:41:54.

a Western intervention. In Egypt, we like to think, we have a long-

:41:54.:41:58.

standing state institution or set of state institutions, and what

:41:58.:42:02.

we've discovered over the last year, is we don't have such a strong

:42:02.:42:07.

state. In fact, that, the most prominent part of the state is the

:42:07.:42:10.

military establishment. They are now ruling. It is business as usual.

:42:10.:42:14.

And so, will has actually been so institutional change in those

:42:14.:42:21.

states, and that's the problem. That before, the fall of the

:42:21.:42:24.

dictators, you have weak state institutions and that's the case

:42:24.:42:28.

afterwards. But, it is a striking contrast, when you think back to a

:42:28.:42:32.

year ago, we were all sitting reporting on the amazing events.

:42:32.:42:38.

When you look at so many countries in the region, even the homogenous

:42:38.:42:43.

ones, it seems people are more divided today than a year ago?

:42:43.:42:49.

Libyans you talk to, will argue they're not divided in principle,

:42:49.:42:52.

they want a unified country in the future, and they are all working

:42:52.:42:58.

towards the same goal. That is some form of a democratic state, and

:42:58.:43:05.

minus a dictator, this time around. But, I think the divisions we're

:43:05.:43:10.

seeing today is really just a product of what a 42-year

:43:10.:43:16.

dictatorship leaves behind. In Libya, in particular, people forget

:43:16.:43:20.

that because the regime, systematically, did away with any

:43:20.:43:26.

form of civil societies, and institutions, they have very little

:43:26.:43:32.

to build on. They are literally starting from scratch. We can't go

:43:32.:43:36.

on about how Egypt and Tunisia, are having to rebuild the institutions

:43:36.:43:42.

but they have some form of base. What I tend to agree against my own

:43:42.:43:46.

argument is to some degree, it was never going to be easy. At the end

:43:46.:43:50.

of an experience such as Libya has sufd, there was never a chance, it

:43:50.:43:56.

was going to build a society. So, I don't think one could have expected,

:43:56.:44:02.

if you lived in a society Libya has been, revenge, brutality is bound

:44:02.:44:06.

to happen. So that's one has to accept. My concern, which extends

:44:06.:44:10.

to other parts of the Middle East, it is important these societies

:44:10.:44:15.

should be seen to be doing things in their own way, not to have the

:44:15.:44:19.

West. We've had people accusing West getting stuck in Libya because

:44:19.:44:23.

we're interested in the oil. It seems terribly important they

:44:23.:44:28.

shouldn't advance the argument. This is another case of western

:44:28.:44:35.

interference. It would be a no, no, to intervene in Syria and Iraq?

:44:35.:44:40.

is impossible to intervene in Syria, partly because Syria has powerful

:44:40.:44:48.

friends. And in an ideal world, the question is which Muslim society,

:44:48.:44:52.

other Muslim societies will be getting stuck in, and we would be

:44:52.:44:56.

one removed, through a Muslim society, the problem is which

:44:56.:45:00.

Muslim society? Why is there such a concern about Muslim societies, you

:45:00.:45:06.

said the rise of political Islam. Islam is not a problem in of itself.

:45:06.:45:11.

I am not a Islamist in a political sense. I don't see the problems as

:45:11.:45:17.

being attached to some kind of income mensable religious scenario.

:45:17.:45:20.

It is a matter of institutions and state building. It may or may not

:45:20.:45:25.

be in the interest of particular allys to intervene. Thank you very

:45:25.:45:30.

much all of you. Now, just a word about tomorrow's Newsnight, when

:45:30.:45:38.

our economic reporter reports in Greece, how the country is in daing

:45:38.:45:47.

of disintegrating under economic collapse and extremeism. People say

:45:47.:45:55.

that if they're continuing of this, we have buy a gun. That's all from

:45:56.:46:05.
:46:06.:46:30.

me. Stephanie will be here tomorrow ? Weather come the weekend, at the

:46:30.:46:36.

moment it is mild out there. Maybe a touch of frost around dawn, in

:46:36.:46:42.

Scotland and north-east of England. Frost-free on Friday, rain

:46:42.:46:45.

returning northwards into north west England and Wales. Some

:46:45.:46:50.

persistent so a damp day here. Midlands, East Anglia, mid-

:46:50.:46:55.

afternoon, a lot of cloud, breezy, but temperatures, higher than today.

:46:55.:47:00.

So well up into double figures. The odd spot of drizzle across west

:47:00.:47:05.

Devon and Cornwall. A nuisance there. For Wales, drab, a cloudy

:47:05.:47:10.

and dachness pushing up across Snowdonia, through the day. For

:47:10.:47:14.

norld, persistent rain for a time, but dribs and drabs of rain through

:47:14.:47:19.

the rest of the afternoon. It turns west across Scotland. Miserable

:47:19.:47:25.

here, east of the hills dry and bright, but just as mild as it was

:47:25.:47:29.

on Thursday. Friday and Saturday across northern parts of the UK,

:47:29.:47:34.

change in the weather, turns colder with wintry showers developing by

:47:34.:47:39.

the weekend. Further south, takes longer for the cold weather to

:47:39.:47:43.

With Rupert Murdoch due to fly in to save The Sun newspaper, does the British press have a future? Is working for no pay the way to tackle unemployment? Plus, post-Gaddafi Libya a year after the uprising.

Presented by Mishal Husain.


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