15/02/2012 Newsnight


15/02/2012

Could Greece be cut loose from the eurozone despite new austerity measures in Athens? Plus the procedure that blights the lives of Egyptian women. Presented by Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Eurozone can bail out Greece, but will it. There are doubts whether a

:00:15.:00:20.

second bail out will go ahead. Some in Europe think it is time to cut

:00:20.:00:24.

Greece loose, and a default wouldn't be devastating, just

:00:24.:00:27.

merely irritating. It is becoming clear Europe's leaders don't want

:00:28.:00:31.

to hand 130 billion to politicians who look incapable of delivering

:00:31.:00:38.

what they just signed up to. And, behind the veneer of a modern state

:00:38.:00:42.

the more risk procedure that blights the lives of women. Mothers

:00:42.:00:47.

come knocking on my door, asking me to circumcise their daughters, I

:00:47.:00:52.

don't need to come looking for them. Britain has been boozey, but can

:00:52.:00:57.

anything be done what the Prime Minister calls "the scandal of our

:00:57.:01:03.

society". Drunkenness. The dilemma of politicians is how can they hit

:01:03.:01:13.
:01:13.:01:15.

the big time bingeers, rather than Good evening the Governor of the

:01:15.:01:18.

Bank of England, Mervyn King confirmed today in his judgment the

:01:18.:01:21.

biggest risk to the British economy is the failure to solve the

:01:21.:01:27.

eurozone crisis. Publicly all the major players, so-called troika,

:01:27.:01:32.

yuefpb Central Bank, International Monetary Fund and European

:01:32.:01:36.

Commission, agrees Greece needs a bail out. But behind the scenes

:01:36.:01:41.

there are cracks, the German Finance Minister, referred to it as

:01:41.:01:46.

a bottomless pit. The paperwork was not in order, and the Greece

:01:46.:01:51.

President clearly angry said he could not accept insults to his

:01:51.:01:54.

country from Germany, Finland or Netherlands.

:01:54.:01:59.

We report on the mess that no-one seems to clear up. Europe is

:01:59.:02:05.

experiencing one of the most cold naps in decades, minus 30 degrees.

:02:05.:02:11.

Europe is cold in the winter, is not unusual, that it is freezing in

:02:11.:02:16.

the Mediterranean is irregular. That chill from north to south

:02:16.:02:22.

seems to be replekaited in this eurozone crisis W Germany and

:02:22.:02:26.

others, hint that Greece's days in the single currency are numbered.

:02:26.:02:29.

The getting the hint in and theen, where the Finance Minister,

:02:29.:02:33.

Evangelos Venizelos, told his countrymen today there were self-

:02:33.:02:38.

eurozone nations who no longer wanted Greece as a member.

:02:38.:02:42.

TRANSLATION: There are visible powers internally in Europe that

:02:42.:02:47.

are playing with fire. Because they believe the October 26th European

:02:47.:02:51.

council agreement might not be itchmented and the specifications

:02:51.:02:56.

will not be kept to. And whoings possibly may want Greece out of the

:02:56.:02:59.

eurozone? It is not just northern politicians

:02:59.:03:04.

actively considering a Greek exit. Even German royalty, Chief

:03:04.:03:09.

Executive of Bosch, seen here drinking with Angela Merkel

:03:09.:03:16.

demanded that Greece not only leave the Euro, but EU. The business is

:03:16.:03:22.

more and more very, if not hostile, toward Greece, because they realise

:03:22.:03:26.

this will be very, very difficult, financiallyings economically, and

:03:26.:03:30.

they're more and more people on the business side who are not too sure

:03:30.:03:35.

this will last, this will be possible to go on. Two years ago

:03:36.:03:40.

when the Greek crisis first erupted the mood in Germany was one of

:03:40.:03:45.

solidarity with the cousins, but two bail out and multiple promises

:03:45.:03:50.

broken later, the mood has changed, somewhat. That means German

:03:50.:03:53.

politicians buoyed with popular support back home can play hard

:03:53.:03:59.

ball with Athens. The hard ball that could push Greece over the

:03:59.:04:03.

edge. Today, MEPs, in the Tory dominated European Conservatives

:04:03.:04:07.

and reformists group, urged the EU to get on with booting the Greeks

:04:07.:04:13.

out of the eurozone. It is no surprise that Germans are

:04:13.:04:19.

unhappy about keeping Greece in the Euro, because getting to boilout

:04:19.:04:24.

more governments that are prorlisk gate than Greece. In fact the main

:04:24.:04:29.

beneficiaries, will be the Greek people who can end the misery of

:04:29.:04:33.

permanent depopulation and post-and begin to claw their way back to

:04:33.:04:37.

export-led recovery. So, Greece leaving the Euro, as well as being

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a great relief to the people who otherwise would have to bail them

:04:41.:04:46.

out is huge benefit to Greek people themselves who can devalue, price

:04:46.:04:50.

their way in the market and grow again. If he and many others get

:04:50.:04:57.

their way, how exactly would a Greek exit or Grexit work? Before

:04:57.:05:03.

it quits, it would impose capital controls so all savings in current

:05:03.:05:07.

accounts would be effectively locked in Greek banks, which

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themselves would have to be fully nationalised. Then the parallel or

:05:12.:05:18.

electronic new currency would have to be created to create debts in a

:05:18.:05:23.

new drachma, which would replace euros,. The ECB and Germany would

:05:23.:05:27.

have to give more than a gold carriage clock to Greece as leaving

:05:27.:05:34.

present. To prevent contagion, Berlin and Frankfurt would have to

:05:34.:05:38.

introduce Euro bonds to help the rest of the single currency for

:05:38.:05:42.

implosion. But is this dangerous? don't think anybody should hide.

:05:42.:05:46.

This has been going on for a while. There are contingency plans

:05:46.:05:50.

prepared all over the world, not just in Europe. The Greek people

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are watching closely and they are scared, because possible default,

:05:53.:05:57.

exit of the single currency, exit of the European currency, would be

:05:57.:06:03.

catastrophic for Greece, and would send the signal of the process of

:06:03.:06:07.

integration, it is important we keep the Euro intact and do it

:06:07.:06:13.

necessary to make it successful within the first few years in

:06:13.:06:18.

existence. As diplomats at the Greek Embassy in London no doubt

:06:18.:06:22.

know, there are two ways for an economy to restore its

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competitiveness, after an economic shock. You can have an internal

:06:26.:06:29.

devaluation, where you clamp down on wages and deflate the economy,

:06:29.:06:34.

or you can have an external devaluation, where the currency is

:06:34.:06:38.

allowed to float downwards. That is out for Greece, because it is a

:06:38.:06:42.

member of the eurozone, which means it is putting all the eggs in the

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internal devaluation basket. The problem is the alternative to that

:06:46.:06:53.

is an outright default. With or without a messing default Greece

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will be rack with the a lot more of this street anger, because the

:06:57.:07:01.

leader of the largest opposition party, and probably the next Prime

:07:01.:07:07.

Minister, signed a letter to honour the austerity pledges, if the

:07:07.:07:10.

April's elections goes ahead. There's little doubt now Greece

:07:10.:07:13.

stands on a precipice with the European partners, relations have

:07:13.:07:20.

never been as frosty. And anti- German sentiment is ram pont and so

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too is Greece could be a few months away from being frozen out of the

:07:25.:07:29.

Euro entirely. Joe Lynam reporting, our economics editor arrived back

:07:29.:07:34.

from Athens, what is the EU trying to do The EU is always known as

:07:34.:07:41.

soon as you give 130 billion euros to the Greek Government and write

:07:41.:07:50.

of 100 billion of debt, the reflection shows to people to get

:07:50.:07:54.

closure. So what they've always up to now done is design the bail out

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in a way there's strong surveillance, so you can keep doing

:07:56.:08:00.

what you're supposed to do. This is based on the idea it would be a

:08:00.:08:03.

stable coalition Government. Or a stable single party Government

:08:03.:08:07.

after an election, once you realise that's not going to happen, things

:08:07.:08:12.

get wobblely. And what is clear, from document leaked to the

:08:12.:08:15.

Financial Times overnight was that the at some point in the last day,

:08:15.:08:19.

they started to think, maybe what we do is give them a bit of money,

:08:19.:08:24.

bit of the bail out, and then make them have an election, a Government

:08:24.:08:31.

that signs up to doing it, and keep the money here, ready to as it

:08:31.:08:34.

where give it like the right thing and hold. A bail out could be

:08:34.:08:40.

designed to save the banks, to save Europe, but almost to say take or

:08:40.:08:43.

leave saving Greece. We've seen the trouble in the streets. But what

:08:43.:08:48.

are they worried about in terms of Greek politics in the month or two

:08:48.:08:53.

ahead? They're worried the two main party are fragmented, the PASOK was

:08:53.:08:58.

down to 8%, it was a Government six months ago. A New Democracy lost

:08:58.:09:03.

some MPs and its plans are about, maybe they want innovative,

:09:03.:09:07.

Conservative idea, plait tax or want to do more massively more

:09:07.:09:11.

privatisation than planned, 50 billion. When you listens to them,

:09:11.:09:15.

and think are they able to do it, and are they able to form a

:09:15.:09:20.

majority, and the answer is pretty clearly no. You have two choices,

:09:20.:09:25.

once the elections start, these party, big traditional party, who

:09:25.:09:30.

will be pulled toward their base, it will be hard for them to form a

:09:30.:09:33.

coherent Government, and the European Union thought if they

:09:33.:09:39.

can't form a coherent Government to negotiate after the election, they

:09:39.:09:44.

said they net a technocratic Government, the Prime Minister has

:09:44.:09:48.

been accused of a Goldman Sachs, the present politicians would not

:09:48.:09:51.

get an interview with the Goldman Sachs and that's what the European

:09:51.:09:55.

Union is worried, the competence issue. That's the background, I'm

:09:55.:10:03.

joined by the Conservative MEP, and leader in the European Parliament,

:10:03.:10:08.

Martin Callahan, Ralph Brinkhaus who sits on the finance committee,

:10:08.:10:11.

and Athens, by the Greek Prime Minister's adviser, George

:10:12.:10:15.

Pagoulatos. George Pagoulatos, listening to all that, do you fear

:10:15.:10:19.

that the mood is absolutely changing, and that some people want

:10:19.:10:25.

to edge Greece out of the eurozone? Well, I can understand that the

:10:25.:10:30.

mood may be changing, in some circles, but let's not forget

:10:31.:10:34.

Greece is undergoing the most painful adjustment programme that

:10:34.:10:38.

has been applied in the eurozone. It is a programme that is causing a

:10:39.:10:43.

lot of pain in Greek society, but it is delivering results. The

:10:43.:10:49.

primary budget deficit has been cut down by 18 billion. This is down,

:10:49.:10:55.

reduction by 19 billion, reduction of nearly, above 8% of GDP.

:10:55.:10:58.

Competitiveness is catching up. Many of the adjustment target are

:10:58.:11:03.

being met. And a few days ago, an extremely painful reform,

:11:03.:11:07.

adjustment reform programme was passed from the Parliament, with

:11:07.:11:11.

two-thirds majority, as a solid majority in Greek society, backing

:11:11.:11:15.

the country's commitment to the Euro. That's what it is all about.

:11:15.:11:20.

Well, Ralph Brinkhaus, do you believe, as the German Finance

:11:20.:11:25.

Minister, suggested that Greece still, despite all that, is a

:11:25.:11:29.

bottomless pit. Because many of your German colleagues seem to do

:11:29.:11:35.

so? Yes, that's right. But it depends on the people in Greece, if

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it is a pit or not. Because, the Greek people, and the Greek

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politicians have to help us now. They have to help us, to build up

:11:46.:11:51.

credibility, because we need this credibility to argue with our

:11:51.:11:58.

people in Germany, that we can spend or better we can invest money

:11:58.:12:03.

in Greece. Do you sense, Ralph Brinkhaus the mood has changed in

:12:03.:12:09.

Germany? The rhetoric has changed the opinion poll, suggesting that

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many Germans feel the Euro would stpaif if Greece would be pushed

:12:13.:12:19.

out? That's a good question. If the mood has changed so far. I think we

:12:19.:12:24.

are now, at the brink, in a discussion, and there is a certain

:12:24.:12:30.

line, and we should not pass this line. We will pass this line, if we

:12:30.:12:35.

continue in negotiating with Greek Government, until the very end of

:12:35.:12:38.

the night, until the very end of the day, and in the last minute,

:12:38.:12:46.

getting a solution. This is not good, because politicians and also

:12:46.:12:50.

markets do not like surprises, so what we need is credibility. We

:12:50.:12:55.

have to build up this credibility, and if not, we would certainly pass

:12:55.:12:59.

this line. Yes. Well Mr Callahan from where

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you sit, the mood is clearly changing a bit in Germany. Do you

:13:02.:13:06.

think it changing in other places too, Finland, the Netherlands, in

:13:06.:13:11.

other words some of the northern European countries getting rather

:13:11.:13:15.

fed up? I think the evidence is they're getting very fed up with it.

:13:16.:13:18.

They're imposing conditions after conditions on Greece, and when we

:13:18.:13:23.

meet or say they're going to meet the latest conditions, the new ones

:13:23.:13:26.

are dreamed up. And it is obvious the finance ministers, or some of

:13:26.:13:30.

them have an agenda, now they've put the fire walls in place, that

:13:30.:13:35.

Greece is only 2% of the eurozone, they could actually ask Greece to

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leave. Actually it is now becoming increasingly obvious, this is in

:13:40.:13:43.

Greece's interest as well. They're going to be faced with years, and

:13:43.:13:50.

years, not just a few months, of grinding austerity to itchment 30%

:13:50.:13:54.

of devaluation in cut in wages and welfare benefit and pensions, and

:13:54.:13:58.

after all of that, by 2020, if they meet all the targets and they

:13:59.:14:03.

haven't met any target yet, they would be back to approximately that

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Italy is now. It is unsustainable in the long-term. It is

:14:07.:14:12.

destabilising the whole of Europe, we need to get on and ask them to

:14:12.:14:14.

leave. George Pagoulatos, we need to get

:14:14.:14:21.

on and ask them to leave, you are 2% of GDP, it is looking grim isn't

:14:21.:14:27.

it is this I'm not sure that being fed up is a good guide for sound

:14:27.:14:32.

policy decisions. Ask for credibility, Greece's Government

:14:32.:14:38.

now led by Christos Papoutsis, Governor exECB vice-chairman, he

:14:38.:14:42.

has never been with Goldman Sachs by the way, he has always been a

:14:42.:14:46.

civil servant. This is a Government backed by the two main party. It is

:14:46.:14:50.

behind, solidly behind it is a majority of Greek society, which

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stands for a Greece's commitment to the Euro, and is ready to take

:14:55.:14:58.

whatever is necessary in order to consolidate our position. Why,

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sorry to interrupt. May I ask you, why was your President so

:15:03.:15:08.

irritateed today by what he saw as an insult from Germany. Was it the

:15:08.:15:14.

bottomless pit remark, what is it that got at him? Well I think,

:15:14.:15:19.

European countries and European political leaders, should bemay

:15:19.:15:23.

have with a degree of solidarity and respect with each other that

:15:23.:15:27.

comes with being members of the European Union. Let me say that...

:15:27.:15:32.

Are you not getting that respect? This is a specific programme. I

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think, it is beside the main point, the main point we are following an

:15:38.:15:42.

adjustment programme, and the main thing that is driving this painful

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adjustment programme is the understanding that any alternative

:15:46.:15:51.

would be far more disastrous. It is broadly understood in Greek society,

:15:51.:15:54.

including... Disasters for Greece. With the

:15:54.:15:59.

exception of the Communist Party:. Perhaps not disastrous for the

:15:59.:16:05.

eurozone. Let me come to that. It has been

:16:05.:16:10.

said it is less disastrous today than it was a year ago. I can abide

:16:10.:16:15.

by that. But it is still extremely destabilising for any member state

:16:15.:16:19.

to depart the eurozone. That would be the beginning of the unravelling

:16:19.:16:23.

of the eurozone. It would be the beginning of a slippery slope. It

:16:23.:16:29.

would create a panic of the depositers of the banking system.

:16:29.:16:33.

Speculatetors and market would speculate who would be next, it

:16:33.:16:37.

would create enormous instability and that is why the same decision

:16:37.:16:42.

made by the European council has been to keep the per I have rif

:16:42.:16:47.

within the eurozone at any cost, because any cost would be any cost

:16:47.:16:53.

if any country would be wanting to exit. Ralph Brinkhaus that is the

:16:53.:16:56.

view of the Olli Rehn, The Commissioner. It would be

:16:56.:17:02.

disastrous for the eurozone if Greece left do you agree? Partly.

:17:02.:17:08.

Let me say that we have to take care for Greece anyway, within the

:17:08.:17:10.

eurozone, within the European Union or outside the European Union. So

:17:11.:17:14.

we have to pay the bill, and at the very end of the day, Germany that

:17:14.:17:20.

is to pay the highest amount of this bill. So, we have to seven for

:17:20.:17:25.

a good solution. And we are not sure whether it is better solution,

:17:25.:17:31.

to get an uncontrolled default, and taking care to take care of Greece

:17:31.:17:35.

of wards or organise it in a way that everybody can stand. It is

:17:35.:17:40.

true the banking system is better prepared for default of Greece than

:17:40.:17:48.

it was 12 months ago. I guess, even the governments are better prepared

:17:48.:17:51.

for this. Sorry to interrupt, you said something interesting there.

:17:51.:17:55.

Are you saying it would be possible, for Greece to leave the eurozone,

:17:55.:17:59.

but Germany and other countries would still make arrangements to

:17:59.:18:05.

look after Greece, so that is a possibility? It would not be the

:18:05.:18:10.

better way. Because, I guess it will be a much harder for the

:18:11.:18:17.

people in Greece take thg way. But, it could be a way, if they leave.

:18:18.:18:24.

This is very important because there are some rumours, these days,

:18:24.:18:28.

Germany never would demand from the Greek people to get out. Germany is

:18:28.:18:32.

not in the position to demand it, and we will nef do it. So, it is

:18:32.:18:37.

their own decision. Let me bring in Mr Callahan. We understand, that

:18:37.:18:42.

Germany, we're all prisoners of our histories. Germany has been polite

:18:42.:18:47.

publicly about this, but it may be, people are taking a similar view in

:18:47.:18:52.

Germany, to the one you expressed which the Greeks should get out?

:18:52.:18:57.

have spoken to a lot of German politicians who say exactly that.

:18:57.:19:01.

Germany is in a difficult position, I sympathise greatly, they feel

:19:01.:19:06.

they've acted honourablely but now face with the a fundamental choice.

:19:06.:19:09.

Are they prepared to spend large amounts of their taxpayers' money

:19:09.:19:14.

on proping up Greece. I'm not talking about lops, but direct

:19:14.:19:19.

fiscal transfers, because that's what is required to make monetary

:19:19.:19:21.

union between two different economies to make it work correctly.

:19:22.:19:25.

It seems to me F the Germans are not prepared to do that, and all

:19:26.:19:32.

the evidence is they aren't, let's take on the difficult decisions.

:19:32.:19:35.

The uncertainty is destabilising the rest of Europe, and faecking

:19:35.:19:40.

the UK, even though we are not part of the Euro. But, it is unsettling

:19:40.:19:44.

everybody, I think my view is the finance ministers have decided

:19:44.:19:49.

they're going to ask Greece to leave. Let's get on with this, and

:19:49.:19:54.

end the uncertainty of bail out of bailouts. Thank you all very much.

:19:54.:19:59.

Now, when we think of Egypt we think of the pyramids, a modern

:19:59.:20:03.

functioning state and a people who risked their lives to get rid of a

:20:03.:20:08.

tyrant. It is a shock to discover the latest figures show more than

:20:08.:20:12.

90% of Egyptian people suffered female genital mutilation, highest

:20:12.:20:19.

rate anywhere in the world. So it is an official ban on the mission

:20:19.:20:24.

five years ago, there has been a campaign not to mutilate their

:20:24.:20:29.

daughters. But the political upheavals, it is felt, could set

:20:29.:20:39.
:20:39.:20:45.

them back. You may find the report It is scarcely believeable as you

:20:45.:20:51.

mingle among the evening shoppers in Cairo, with the appearance of

:20:51.:20:55.

any other cosmopolitan city anywhere in the world, that nearly

:20:55.:21:00.

all the women here have been deliberately mutilateed. New

:21:00.:21:04.

figures due out later this year are expect today show a decline on a

:21:04.:21:09.

number of at the malmutilations, four years after the ban was

:21:09.:21:11.

introduced. But they'll still indicate a majority of women in

:21:11.:21:17.

this country, suffer huge, physical, psychological and unjustified pain.

:21:17.:21:26.

And are denied what most women would regard as a normal sex life.

:21:26.:21:30.

Upper Egypt, where the landscape along the Nile hasn't changed in

:21:30.:21:34.

centuries. Nor have the tradition which

:21:34.:21:38.

believes that a family of honour is dependent on the removal of those

:21:38.:21:45.

parts of a girl's body that might arouse sexual desire. To challenge

:21:45.:21:51.

such a blaef in an environment in which sex is nef spoken about in

:21:51.:21:57.

public, campaigner, Nivine Rasmi goes from house-to-house. Talking

:21:57.:22:02.

to people is what we do. We have to know how to reach out to people and

:22:02.:22:06.

discuss this issue with them. a village where Muslims live side

:22:06.:22:16.
:22:16.:22:17.

by side with Christians, and both communities practice FGM.

:22:17.:22:20.

TransI've had problems in my sexual relationship with my husband

:22:20.:22:26.

because of it it. So when it was explained about the health come

:22:26.:22:31.

employee cases and not part of religious faith, I'm convinced I

:22:31.:22:37.

don't want my daughter circumcised. But the Muslim mother next door is

:22:37.:22:44.

not. The The two older girl cousins have been mutilate and her 11-year-

:22:44.:22:50.

old daughter will be next. TRANSLATION: I will remove this

:22:50.:22:55.

part of her body instead of letting her play with herself, or she might

:22:55.:22:59.

ask a boy to touch this part and might enjoy it. It might be a

:22:59.:23:04.

stranger or one of her male cousins, so this will protect her, and when

:23:04.:23:10.

she'll feel the pain of it, she'll be more careful about this part.

:23:10.:23:14.

Oven it is the husband's family who demand it. Mothers say they can't

:23:14.:23:19.

get their daughters, married without it.

:23:19.:23:23.

TRANSLATION: No-one comes and checks, these days the midwife

:23:23.:23:27.

arrives secretly, does it and leaves in a hurry, so no-one sees

:23:27.:23:35.

her, because it is illegal. But we found nothing secretive about the

:23:35.:23:42.

village midwife. TRANSLATION: Circumcision is

:23:42.:23:49.

healthy for girls, I know this. Pure fiedgirls grow taller and get

:23:49.:23:55.

marriage proposals, but unpure fiedstay short and stuby. Some

:23:55.:23:59.

mothers say they don't want her daughters pure fied, they humour

:23:59.:24:07.

her, but once she's gone they ask me to circum size their girls.

:24:07.:24:13.

I have her mother, her aunt or neighbour, hold her while I cut her.

:24:13.:24:18.

It doesn't take a minute. I cut three parts. I cut the lower part

:24:18.:24:23.

first, so the blood doesn't run down from the upper part. And after,

:24:23.:24:33.
:24:33.:24:33.

I show the two cut part to the mother, I cut the upper part.

:24:33.:24:38.

you enjoy your work? TRANSLATION: I love it. Like my own

:24:38.:24:46.

eyes, because I need the money. Take me to prison if you want to,

:24:46.:24:51.

take me anywhere, but I will keep circumcising girls, I want the

:24:51.:24:58.

money. And so why doesn't a girl who works

:24:58.:25:04.

for a local NGO take the woman to a police station?

:25:04.:25:10.

TRANSLATION: Who are we gck to report to, in police stations we

:25:10.:25:14.

report to an officer who believes in the custom and is probably doing

:25:14.:25:20.

it to his own daughters. Without support from the authority,

:25:20.:25:24.

campaigners take the message into the classroom. They engage children

:25:24.:25:29.

at a young age to gain their confidence and when they're older

:25:29.:25:38.

they talk about FGM. Salma says she saved more than a hundred girls

:25:38.:25:42.

this way. She's motivated by what happened to her.

:25:42.:25:48.

TRANSLATION: They did my elder sister first. I was the middle and

:25:48.:25:54.

the youngest was after me. The midwife came with two accomplices

:25:54.:25:58.

and bound me by my hands and feet so she could hold me down. I tried

:25:58.:26:02.

to hit one of them but couldn't. I was only ten.

:26:02.:26:07.

I screamed, but they gaged me, so my little sister would not hear the

:26:07.:26:14.

pain. Afterwards I screamed all day. I spent two days recovering, it was

:26:14.:26:22.

terrible. To this day I shudder from the memory. She invited 13-

:26:22.:26:29.

year-old Zaba whose older sister had been mutilated to her teaching.

:26:29.:26:34.

TRANSLATION: I spoke to my mum and told her everything I learned from

:26:34.:26:39.

Salma. I spoke to her politely to convince her. Luckily it worked.

:26:39.:26:43.

There are no benefits to circumcision, people think that way.

:26:43.:26:53.
:26:53.:26:54.

Once I explained the harm it causes she was convinced. Because people

:26:54.:26:59.

believe it is part of their faith, campaigners appeal to local

:27:00.:27:06.

religious leaders for help. They try, they say, but, it is difficult

:27:06.:27:11.

to change people. TRANSLATION: The main challenge is

:27:11.:27:15.

tradition. In the Old Testament when God ordered Abraham to

:27:15.:27:20.

circumcise, it was only for boys, there was no mention of female

:27:20.:27:24.

circumcision, but in our tradition, it is performed on girls as well.

:27:24.:27:29.

We pray that God will help us in reaching people with the truth.

:27:29.:27:35.

local 78 man splaipd that Muslim leaders are trying hard to get the

:27:35.:27:37.

message heard. TRANSLATION: We are now spreading

:27:37.:27:41.

the word against FGM because it is against our faith for this part of

:27:41.:27:46.

a woman to be seen by anybody else. Which are' telling people not to do

:27:46.:27:56.

it. It appeared the local religious leaders were in agreement, this

:27:56.:28:01.

will the arrival of a more senior cleric. Refusing to look at me, he

:28:01.:28:06.

gave me his view. TRANSLATION: The prophet did it,

:28:06.:28:12.

peace be with him. So this thing is legalised by Islamic law. Egypt's

:28:12.:28:17.

most senior religious figure, issueed a fatwa, against FGM a few

:28:17.:28:22.

years ago, and yet those below him contradict one another. No wonder

:28:22.:28:32.
:28:32.:28:41.

Whatever stand religious leaders might take, female genital

:28:41.:28:46.

mutilation is a milla old tradition here. It was said it was practised

:28:46.:28:51.

the age of the Pharaohs, well before Christianity arrived in

:28:51.:28:54.

Egypt. It is built into the national psyche and those trying

:28:54.:28:57.

admits it will be very hard to remove.

:28:57.:29:02.

It is like a needle. With this, they can bring the clit Ross

:29:02.:29:09.

outside to cut it. And the other two needles, they put one on the

:29:09.:29:19.

Libya and the other Libya, and stretch it out, so they can cut it.

:29:19.:29:25.

Dr Randa Fakhr El Din runs a MGO in Cairo. They says half the cases

:29:25.:29:30.

they comes across are type one, removal of the clitoris and the

:29:30.:29:37.

rest is the removal of the clitoris and labia, both procedures, carry

:29:37.:29:41.

risks. TRANSLATION: Some of the immediate

:29:41.:29:48.

come employee cases include bleeding, infections from insterile

:29:48.:29:53.

tools. Severe pain, that can lead to body shock, all these can cause

:29:53.:30:01.

the girl to die. We witness come employee cases later on, female

:30:01.:30:06.

circumcision, means these women next reach organism, this means

:30:06.:30:12.

withdrawing from sex from the husband, which means problems in

:30:12.:30:18.

the marriage: Paradoxically, deaths have increased since the practice

:30:18.:30:22.

was banned. TRANSLATION: In some cases, parents

:30:22.:30:27.

don't seek medical care, even if their daughter suffers severe come

:30:27.:30:31.

employee cases, in which case it becomes too late to save their

:30:31.:30:37.

lives. Girls die because their parents are afraid of prosecution.

:30:37.:30:41.

But how much longer will parents be afraid of the law? We were told a

:30:41.:30:45.

crowd gathered outside a house where we'd been filming, after we

:30:45.:30:50.

left, and yelled abuse at the women, saying "they shouldn't talk to

:30:50.:30:58.

foreigners about such traditional matters". A wave of xenophobia and

:30:58.:31:04.

traditionalism, engulfed Egypt since the fall of Mubarak regime.

:31:04.:31:09.

TRANSLATION: It appears new Parliament will oppose laws against

:31:09.:31:13.

FGM because some extremists disagree with laws that protect

:31:13.:31:19.

women and children. We are sure we will see a decline in women and

:31:19.:31:24.

children's right. I asked the spokesman for the sal faffy party,

:31:24.:31:29.

the most extreme of the party, whether they would be supporting

:31:29.:31:35.

the campaign against FGM? This is not a priority. There are more

:31:36.:31:42.

urgent issues involving women. No- one will force women to do

:31:42.:31:48.

something they wouldn't do anything to do. You wouldn't deter a woman

:31:48.:31:57.

to get her daughter mutilated? have nothing to say on this matter.

:31:57.:32:03.

This girl will be mutilate. Well the International Development

:32:03.:32:11.

Minitster, Stephen O'Brien is in our Salford stueed studio. What do

:32:11.:32:16.

you think the British Government's role can help to stop this? This is

:32:16.:32:22.

critical but neglected issue, which deserves global attention. I salute

:32:22.:32:25.

Sue Lloyd-Roberts for that, in bringing attention to the wider

:32:25.:32:30.

public, a very serious issue, on which we have been very focused and

:32:30.:32:35.

the UK people, through the various things we support, be that UNICEF

:32:35.:32:40.

or the UN population fund are working in many countries, where

:32:40.:32:45.

this is still practised. And, to find out Egypt has apparently 90%

:32:45.:32:52.

of their women who have been cut, equally we have similar figures in

:32:52.:32:57.

Somalia. I have myself seen to see a wonderful charity in Senegal

:32:57.:33:03.

which manage today secure,00 villages, now to be female genital

:33:03.:33:08.

mutilation-free. This is all to do with working very hard through the

:33:08.:33:12.

communities themselves, very much led in Africa, by community leaders,

:33:12.:33:17.

oven men, but above all this is getting into the traditions and

:33:17.:33:20.

embedded cultures, particularly of women. There's less evidence this

:33:20.:33:26.

is demanded by men, this is more to do with women's perceptions of

:33:26.:33:35.

daughters being stigmatised. Do you see an obvious ironic, Suzanne

:33:35.:33:38.

Mubarak was one that campaigned against this, they brought this in,

:33:38.:33:46.

and things might get worse, despite the benefit of Arab springs bring

:33:46.:33:49.

to Egypt? You are right, the first ladies of many of the countries,

:33:49.:33:55.

are one of the largest of role models, that we need to make sure

:33:55.:33:59.

are well on with this campaign to recognise in the interest of girls

:33:59.:34:03.

and womens health and rights, this is a practice which needs to come

:34:03.:34:08.

to an end. It is the abandonment through action, clearly the laws

:34:08.:34:12.

have been passed but it is getting the culture and tradition to be

:34:12.:34:18.

banned within the culture themselves. It could actually get

:34:18.:34:21.

worse? It could be more conservative and people could

:34:21.:34:27.

return to the traditional routes. That was part of the what Sue

:34:27.:34:32.

suggested there. This won't be a negative sequence of the Arab

:34:32.:34:36.

Spring and revolution in Egypt. It is clearly being going on both

:34:36.:34:40.

within Muslim and Christian communities, it's been going on for

:34:40.:34:46.

over 2,000 years. It doesn't appeared to be allied to a

:34:46.:34:53.

religious issue, it is a cult tuerl embedded suggest with women. The

:34:53.:34:57.

stigma with marriage, it isn't the husband or husband tobacco

:34:57.:35:04.

demanding that girls, women should be cut, the the morm who inspects

:35:04.:35:08.

who has been to let her son consummate the marriage. It is

:35:08.:35:13.

within the female communities, from their point of view,not an act of

:35:13.:35:17.

violence, but it is in the girl's best interest as they see it. We

:35:17.:35:23.

have to stand up to the right for the choices available and the right

:35:23.:35:28.

advice is working. The charity I saw in Senegal, which we support

:35:28.:35:31.

through the anti-slavery charity, is one which is showing us the way

:35:31.:35:38.

it can strongly encourage us, just as 20 years it took to get rid of

:35:38.:35:46.

Chinese foot binding, 20 years ago. Our Arab Spring watch continues

:35:46.:35:49.

tomorrow where Mark reports on the anniversary of the first uprising

:35:49.:35:53.

there. If the Westminster Government insisted minimum price

:35:53.:36:01.

on a unit of alcohol, say 45 pence or so, in Scotland T could prevent

:36:01.:36:05.

a thousand premature deaths, and prevent some of the social ills, to

:36:05.:36:12.

boozey Britain. But it could mean a big jump in cheap sizeer, begin and

:36:12.:36:17.

voted karks and problems with yuefpbkochtigs law. With David

:36:17.:36:22.

Cameron talking of the scandal of alcohol abuse, is the Government

:36:22.:36:28.

fixing prices a good idea? We investigate. Politicians know

:36:28.:36:32.

exactly what a tragic impact, low or no price booze can have. They've

:36:32.:36:39.

been to the party conferences. Free bar there can turn the driest

:36:39.:36:45.

think-tank fest into the last days of Rome. Prime Minister today,

:36:45.:36:49.

visiting a hospital in the north- east of England, saying he's

:36:49.:36:56.

worried about what he calls the "scandal of increasing public

:36:56.:36:59.

drunkenness". I have been impressed where there's a police officer on

:36:59.:37:05.

duty on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday night. I want local powers

:37:05.:37:09.

can close down bars, it is against the law to sell to people who are

:37:09.:37:14.

drunk, or underage, you can close down bars. But we need to look at

:37:14.:37:18.

the issues of pricing and how we handle alcohol in hospital as well.

:37:18.:37:23.

We're going to take action across the board, this is a national

:37:23.:37:27.

problem. The Government put the cost of dealing with alcohol

:37:27.:37:31.

problems, for the Department of Health at �2.7 billion. A billion

:37:31.:37:34.

of that, on zept and emergency services.

:37:34.:37:39.

The wider cost to society, which take in everything from days missed

:37:39.:37:44.

at work, to extra policing, are, says the Government between �17

:37:44.:37:49.

billion and �22 billion a year. Last year, there were almost

:37:49.:37:56.

200,000 hospital admissions with what is called a primary alcohol

:37:56.:38:01.

related diagnosis, up 40% since 200. In prewar Britain, public

:38:01.:38:06.

drunkenness was unheard of. There was the occasional bar fight, but

:38:06.:38:12.

that was met with what modern crime fighters, explained as a "zero

:38:12.:38:22.
:38:22.:38:23.

tolerance" approach. Licensing has in fact got more relaxed. With the

:38:23.:38:28.

Labour Party, ending standard licensing hours in 2005. A move

:38:28.:38:33.

designed to bring in the cafe culture. My view is that the law

:38:33.:38:36.

abiding majority, who want the ability, after going, say to the

:38:36.:38:41.

cinema or theatre to have a drink at the time they want, should not

:38:41.:38:46.

be inconvenienced, we should not have no restrictions that no other

:38:46.:38:52.

city has. Britain has gone through whole boughted drunkenness before,

:38:52.:39:01.

in the 1851 work, Begin skarks lane. What hasn't changed is the

:39:01.:39:07.

political how do you stop those who take an otherwise popular activity

:39:07.:39:14.

to excess without annoying the majority who don't. Nick worked for

:39:14.:39:20.

Tony Blair whilst I was trying to tackle baing drinking. I remember a

:39:20.:39:25.

day in Downing Street, when you go around these issues, you have to

:39:25.:39:30.

impose extra cost, and I have advisers, saying what does that

:39:30.:39:37.

mean a person brinking home cheap beer for BBQ, and the wine club,

:39:37.:39:42.

those are the pressures. current Government is supposed to

:39:42.:39:47.

be considering introducing a minimum price for a unit of alcohol.

:39:47.:39:51.

It would suggest, some, tackle one aspect of modern drinking, that's

:39:51.:39:57.

the people who preload on cheap booze at home before going out.

:39:57.:40:04.

date yea is students are spending less money on going in the town and

:40:04.:40:07.

socialising, however what they are doing is managing to spend more

:40:07.:40:12.

time at home bf they go out for a night out. Roughly, students are

:40:12.:40:16.

spending �7.50 on drinking before they go out for a night out. So

:40:16.:40:20.

students will find other ways, which is why the minimum pricing

:40:20.:40:23.

can be important. Minimum pricing for alcohol is already being

:40:23.:40:29.

introduced in Scotland. But, ending cheap supermarket booze, won't

:40:29.:40:35.

necessarily be politically popular, particularly now when so many

:40:35.:40:39.

household budget are stretched. I'm joined by Professor Mark Bellis in

:40:39.:40:43.

favour of minimum pricing of alcohol, and Helen Lederer who

:40:44.:40:46.

likes the occasional drink. One thing that strikes me, whatever you

:40:46.:40:50.

may say in favour of this, isn't it going to work out a tax on the poor.

:40:50.:40:54.

It tends the poorer people will pay, because they will drink some of

:40:54.:40:58.

those drinks? It is actually the poor that stand the best benefits

:40:58.:41:02.

from this. They're the ones, suffering from alcohol relate

:41:02.:41:05.

problems at the moment. If we reduce the levels of consumption,

:41:05.:41:10.

some of the communities, we might see less crime, we'll see better

:41:10.:41:14.

health, they can benefit a lot. If we worey about the poor, some of

:41:14.:41:20.

the taxes we make on the �22 billion that costs society, we can

:41:20.:41:25.

put that back in the inequality and that will doo more good than

:41:25.:41:30.

worrying when they can get drunk. What do you think about this, we're

:41:30.:41:36.

aware of any city at night, you see drunkenness? I can't disagree on

:41:36.:41:41.

most facts, in the sense excessive dripging causes a lot of disease,

:41:41.:41:45.

that one would wish to be available. But is there that much evidence

:41:45.:41:50.

that people have drinking that much more than how they used to? This is

:41:50.:41:56.

a bit of a data bury bad news, and it is alarming that David Cameron

:41:56.:42:00.

is talking about cells to put drink people in. We're sensationalising

:42:01.:42:04.

young drunk people with television programmes and pack yaiblging, as

:42:04.:42:08.

we do with the gypsy wedding, we're talking about the culture. And I

:42:08.:42:13.

don't understand all the money that's gone into research,

:42:13.:42:18.

campaigns, that really aren't impactful at all. Like drinking for

:42:18.:42:24.

two days. Not drinking for two days? Not drinking, the point is we

:42:24.:42:29.

all drink. Most people drink, if you don't want to, that's fine.

:42:29.:42:34.

However horrible it may be at the edges, it is part of our culture

:42:34.:42:41.

and has been for hundreds of years? Yes. In the early 870s, we were

:42:41.:42:45.

drinking 50% less than we're drinking now. And people weren't

:42:45.:42:50.

saying we're drinking enough. We've seen an increase, we're drinking

:42:50.:42:53.

more, decades more, seen increaseness consumption, we're

:42:53.:42:57.

paying the price for those, not just in health, but the pressures

:42:57.:43:03.

on the health services and amount of money people are paying in taxes

:43:03.:43:07.

to help health and criminal justice services. I don't buy this. Why is

:43:07.:43:11.

all the statistics, I don't have the backing that you have, and the

:43:11.:43:17.

jb you have, and I'm not sheer to fiscally sort out the fiscal cost

:43:17.:43:22.

to the NHS. The human cost is there should be more employment and today

:43:22.:43:25.

the headlines is about massive youth unemployment. And young

:43:25.:43:32.

people drink. When I was a student, well I drink now. I dripg when I

:43:32.:43:37.

want to drink. And sometimes too much? Yes but that's normal, and

:43:37.:43:43.

you can wake up the next morning, when you say "oh goodness what did

:43:43.:43:47.

I say" that's part of society. Abusive problems, which is your job

:43:47.:43:50.

to be concerned about, I respect that, but the headlines have gone

:43:50.:43:54.

mad today. Do you think, I wonder whether, people don't say this, but

:43:55.:43:59.

whether as a society this, is the price we're prepared to pay for the

:43:59.:44:04.

way that we are? It is terrible, we could save money, lives and all

:44:04.:44:09.

kinds of human misery, but we are apparently, prepared to pay this

:44:09.:44:12.

price? I don't think people know the price they're paying, it is

:44:12.:44:17.

over �0 billion in the cost to our society in terms of alcohol. If

:44:17.:44:21.

people want to pay that price that, should be reflected on the price

:44:21.:44:27.

they pay for alcohol. A child's pocket money, is not enough to get

:44:27.:44:33.

drunk in a week. So, let's make sure people can enjoy alcohol in

:44:33.:44:37.

moderation, a night outs certainly, but they don't have to suffer from

:44:37.:44:43.

the problems, that city centres are full of drunk people. Is this the

:44:43.:44:47.

best way? There are all other kinds of things that have been suggested?

:44:47.:44:52.

Is this the best option? fairest option is put in a minimum

:44:52.:44:59.

price in. That will bring down the consumption of the most vulnerable

:44:59.:45:05.

groups joox if you want to drink or want to smoke or eat a doughnut,

:45:05.:45:10.

which I want to do all three, accept I don't smoke, I will find a

:45:10.:45:17.

way to find a doughnut. We've gone, I just, this is the wrong focus. I

:45:17.:45:22.

think we should be looking at emphasising, that stress can be

:45:22.:45:26.

relieved by drinking, plus, we should put positive images on the

:45:26.:45:31.

television, about people who are not drunk. Why don't we look at the

:45:31.:45:36.

broader way of examining social messages, that just putting up

:45:36.:45:40.

vodka, and increasing the profit margin of supermarket that don't

:45:40.:45:45.

need it. We have plenty of positive messages on television, the alcohol

:45:45.:45:51.

industry make sure we look at that. But we don't see the cancers,

:45:51.:45:55.

domestic violence, and illness and criminal justice system.

:45:55.:46:02.

Now, there's a new line in the story Newsnight broke S public

:46:02.:46:06.

servants paid through companies, likely to reduce the amount they

:46:06.:46:12.

would tai. The student loan company was using this tech teak technique,

:46:12.:46:16.

and 5 people working at the Department of Health is looking at

:46:16.:46:19.

this story. The problem for the Department of Health is in a

:46:19.:46:23.

written answer to a parliamentary question, said no members of staff

:46:23.:46:27.

were being paid in this way to a limited company, tax efficient

:46:27.:46:32.

likely for the person involved. The Guardian have the e-mails that are

:46:32.:46:36.

allegeed to show, 25 people in the department, mainly senior people,

:46:36.:46:40.

are being paid in this way, and while they may not be technically

:46:40.:46:46.

be staff of the department, they've been there for many years. They've

:46:46.:46:50.

e-mails showing the departmental civil servants having a somewhat

:46:50.:46:55.

thick of it style discussion about how to avoid revealing this, so

:46:55.:47:01.

they've apologised tonight and the review is under way. That's we have

:47:01.:47:11.
:47:11.:47:14.

time for. From all of us here good Body body hello there. It looks

:47:14.:47:24.
:47:24.:47:26.

like turning colder this weekend. A reasonable day across the

:47:26.:47:33.

southern half of the UK. We will have a weather front edging down to

:47:33.:47:37.

northern England. But for the Midlands, and East Anglia, I won't

:47:37.:47:43.

rule out a shower, but mostly stay fine. A bit of a breeze, but not as

:47:43.:47:48.

strong as it has been today. Brightness hanging on across the

:47:48.:47:54.

south-east of Wales. Further north and west, it will cloud up. For

:47:54.:48:00.

Northern Ireland, rain now and again, particularly further west

:48:00.:48:07.

you'll go. After a wet start across Scotland, it will head southwards

:48:07.:48:14.

and clear up. So, looking further ahead across northern areas, more

:48:14.:48:19.

rain to come, before things will change brighter and colder before

:48:19.:48:23.

Could Greece be cut loose from the eurozone despite new austerity measures in Athens? Plus the horrific procedure that blights the lives of Egyptian women. And what Prime Minister David Cameron calls the "scandal of our society" - drunkenness. Presented by Gavin Esler.


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