Browse content similar to 20/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Sometime tonight, the Greek financial crisis will be settled | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
and Europe will live happily ever after. Or so we're asked to believe. | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
But even if finance ministers do strike a deal to let Greece borrow | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
more money, are the people of the country willing to suffer for the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
sake of foreign banks? And will they accept European commissars on | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
the ground dictating day to day policy as some in Northern Europe | :00:26. | :00:33. | |
want..We'll hear from a Greek cabinet minister. And how did | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
Greece get itself into this mess? Step forward Goldman Sachs, the | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
bank that helped to make the books look balanced. And the European | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
officials who like to say yes. wrote to deck Tate letter to | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
Eurostat. Six months later, we got a letter back, saying they veted | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
and we better shut up. Here the coalition wrangles of the budget s | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
the new tension in Government how far to penalise the wealthy to | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
protect the less wealthy. ambition is to end the period of | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
austerity in terms of the incomes of low and middle income families. | :01:14. | :01:24. | |
Our new political editor is here. That language from David Laws man | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
who was the first Chief Secretary to the Treasury in this Government, | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
and is still a big noise in the Lib Dems is illuminating because | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
austerity isn't something the Government likes to boast about. | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
And our borders. It is all right the Greek financial crisis will | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
soon be over, that's what officials close to the negotiations going on | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
in Brussels tonight say. Accept of course it won't be over, the Greeks | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
will merely have succeeded in borrowing billions more to try to | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
pay off billions they've already borrowed while the northern | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
Europeans who got to pay the bill will have got some conditions they | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
attached they believe they can sell to their people. The dux Finance | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
Minister, for example wants a team of commissars installed in Athens | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
to make sure the Greeks stick to the rules. First up Joe Lynam | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
:02:28. | :02:29. | ||
Lent starts this week, followed by 40 days of abstinence and self- | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
denial. Forever many Greeks this week will trigger a decade of | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
economic stress and collapse in their living standards. | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Their fate was sealed 2,000 piles away in Brussels, where eurozone | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
finance ministers arrived to get a special pleading from the Greek | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
Prime Minister himself. Lucas Papademos argued that Greece had | :02:50. | :02:57. | |
met all that was asked of his people, and was entitle today a | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
further 130 billion euros in loans and guarantees. His audience seemed | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
more responsive than they were a week ago. | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
TRANSLATION: Greece has made very important efforts but we need to | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
continue the work now and all parties need to provide their | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
contribution. The IMF is part of it and working on it. | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
It is the intention of nobody to have Greece outside the Euro area, | :03:23. | :03:31. | |
this would be a big solution for reason. It would be nonetheless but | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
situation for the Euro area. Then came the Dutch finance Prime | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Minister pouring cold water. He wants to see the troika, based full | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
time in Athens, something which will make the southern Europeans | :03:47. | :03:55. | |
lived. I am, myself, I am in favour of a permanent troika, in Athens. | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
That's my personal position, yes. I think permanent - when you look at | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
the derailment in Greece, which has occurred several times now, it is | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
probably necessary that, some kind of permanent presence of the troika | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
in Athens, not every three months but on a permanent basis. I'm in | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
fave of it that. The comments is schism between the north and south | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
of Europe is real and won't be papered over by warm words. They | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
feel they've been misled by Greek politicians in the past so Cher' | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
exactly a stiff price from ordinary citizens. In a second bail out | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
worth 130 billion euros, Greece has cut tenses of jobs and public | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
sector pensions. Going forward, they agreed to have every key state | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
asset and get used to troika's hot breath over their shoulders, to see | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
they don't deviate. Is it workable? Austerity, won't work, and we've | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
been going down the path for the past few years. We've seen | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
depression level contractions in Greece, and without any economic | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
relief, that is some growth, I don't think you can expect a | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
country such as Greece, to itchment reforms, structural reforms that it | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
needs to do in order to become sustainable, a sustainable member | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
of the eurozone. With youth unemployment at 50% and | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
increasingly angry Greek youth could make any deal signed | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
unimplementable on the ground. we're moving into is a crisis of | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
democracy. Because the Euro as a currency is public good for the | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
citizens of the eurozone. But the decisions taken to the safety of | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
eurozone are taken by individual countries, and might impose, | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
undemocratic, and to a large extent unacceptable constraints on other | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
eurozone countries. This week the Greek Parliament is set to activate | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
a collective action clause, to force all bond holders to take a | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
compulsory hair cut or right down of 70%. The international swaps and | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
derivatives association will decide whether a Greek bail out is in fact | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
a messy default or an awe dor of to a Lehman Brothers moment. | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Joe Lynam is with us in the studio now. Is there going to be a deal | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
tonight? They're talking, eight hours after they started. That | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
means they haven't got the deal they had hoped. They're going to be | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
talking about the monitoring I was referring to there, the | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
surveillance where the hot breath of the troika, the IMF and ECB will | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
be breatheing down on Greek officials and ministers so they | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
don't stray off the path. They're talking about the account in which | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
they will pay the money. It is like giving someone a �0 note with a | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
chain attached to it, because the Greeks won't have access to the | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
money, because the troika will be controlling that account. And even | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
at the end of all that, all they'll have succeeded in doing is | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
borrowing money against imminent rainy day, which will have to be | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
paid off at some point? Will have to be paid, all going for the Greek, | :07:26. | :07:34. | |
all going well they will get the debt down to 120GDP, that's | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
unsustainable by any measure, that's if the economy recovering. | :07:38. | :07:45. | |
It shrank by 7%, that's a depression not recession. For that | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
who happened, there needs to be private sector investment. The rich | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
people are squirrelling their money away out of the country, so the | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
private sector-led recovery, will be a tough one. Why has the mood | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
changed so much snx the mood from north to south has changed, the | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
Germans, and Dutch and Finns, to vote on the bail out deal, may not | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
approve it, saying, we have been lied to by Greek politicians, we | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
don't want to be lieed again, it is moly the triple-A rated countries | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
will put their money on the line. Thank you very much. Now the Greek | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
crisis is not an zept T has human causes. On the one side is the mess | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Sianic on the political class, and the elass it can view of what | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
constitutes sound Government and good management of the economy. The | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
country's adited to borrowing. Yet, was commit after joining the Euro | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
to cutity debt. How is it to do so? It didn't. It turned instead to one | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
of the world's biggest investment banks, for help in getting around | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
the deficit rules. It was nick Nick Dunbar, author of "The Devil's | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
Derivatives", how Goldman Sachs did Greece a big favour. For the first | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
time, some of those who did the deal talk publicly. | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
The sales, it is a sexy story, between two singers, but the | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
European crisis is not the child of the sex we had. | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
With Goldman Sachs. Perhaps as an electorate we might have agreed | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
this is what we want to, it was nef we were nef consulted and we nef | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
knew. Greece is teetering on the brink. Poor man of the eurozone, | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
dependent on the EU for bail out loans, mistrusted by creditors and | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
poised to default. How did it bring itself to the edge and how did 2.8 | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
billion euros of debt disappear in the wind? In 2003, I exposed | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
Greece's attempt with Goldman Sachs to conceal the size of its debt. At | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
that time the Greek authority say I was making something out of nothing. | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
So now I'm back in Athens, to understand how and why the deal was | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
done. What was the deal's cost to Greece, at a profit to Goldman and | :10:12. | :10:22. | |
:10:22. | :10:23. | ||
why were EU watchdogs insistent they knew nothing until 2010? In | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
2001, in a wrestle how to qualify for Euro membership, the Government | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
argued how they could kick the habit of debt. Greece had to | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
promise to show directionability, the debt ratio had to go down every | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
year. With events like the 2004 Olympics coming up, that wouldn't | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
be easy. For the civil servants, an easier solution of at hand., why | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
not hide the borrowing instead? Among the banksers who flocked to | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
and theen, was head of fixed income sales at Goldman Sachs. In 2001, | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
she came to the table with one of the most important deals of her | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
career. She had found a way to give the Greeks what they were looking | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
for, a way of shrinking their debt that was legal and completely | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
secret. I'm going to meet the man tasked by the Government at the | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
time with getting Greece ago debt moving in the right direction. The | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
deal involves swaps, bets to hedge risks. He says from the start he | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
wasn't able to disclose the deal to the market. If you go to the open | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
market, as a secret agent trying to sell bonds, you make allowances | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
because you want to attract investors. When you do it is as a | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
bilateral deal, you don't make announcements about it. No-one did | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
it at that time. If you look around Europe, nobody announces the swaps | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
they did with every counter party. And that was the tradition. | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
swap that Goldman offered Greece would shrink the debt, use ago | :12:07. | :12:17. | |
:12:17. | :12:17. | ||
foreign exchange transaction. In the same way you or I convert our | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
currency when we come back from holiday, international brotherers | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
convert the foreign bonds into domestic debt. Goldman used a | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
fictitious exchange rate to make the country's debt appear smaller. | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
In this way, 2.8 billion euros, suddenly disappeared, giving the | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
false impression that Greece was convergeing with the Maastricht | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
rules. The debt hadn't really disappeared. In reality, Goldman | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
had secretly lent Greece, 2.8 billion your euros as part of the | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
swap. In an attempt to paying it back with big interest interest | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
rate delts, there was further debt. A year after the Government | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
chaickds. The new Government revealed the spiralling costs of | :13:05. | :13:14. | |
the Goldman deal. TRANSLATION: The dretrimental swap | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
agreement, led to the debt. The swap agreement had a direct cost of | :13:18. | :13:27. | |
500 million euros, and indirect cost of one billion euros. The new | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
boss of Greece's public debt management agency, says the deal | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
ostensibly achieved what the previous Government set out to do. | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
They hid the debt, so they were in agreement, with requirement to be a | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
member of the eurozone, right. But the cost was huge. And when finally | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
they had to come out in the open and acknowledge this debt, this | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
debt ballooned. But big debt? big debt. A bad bet? In prospect | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
yes. Vul of the bets not working out, | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
the loan mushroomed to 5.1 billion, Goldman involved tweaks to ensure | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
the dice was loaded against Greece and in favour of Goldman who were | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
making millions from the deal. asked Goldman to eliminate this | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
feature that was not usual on the market. They refused to. I | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
recommended to write a letter high up to, get rid of this, without any | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
come pen says. But they were asked they couldn't do that, because the | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
traders were in position, and they may lose money. He sympathises with | :14:45. | :14:52. | |
the position his predecessor was in? He was riped off by Goldman. I | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
don't blame him. Because, he was scared and could not go to the | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
market and check, and was asked by the Government to do that. | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
might wonder how such a deal could be allowed, but it was legal. | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
Goldman wanted to be sure, it wouldn't get into trouble for | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
helping the Greek with such a bear- faced trick, so the company said it | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
spoke to the EU accounting agency about the deal, and provided | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
Newsnight, that discusses took place. We asked Eurostat but they | :15:24. | :15:34. | |
:15:34. | :15:52. | ||
For many, questions remain. Why wasn't Eurostat looking out for | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
Greece in the interest of the Euro in the whole. The deal was well | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
known. How could Eurostat stay bliss flee unaware until 2010? | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
Greeks were trying to warn about the dodgy stat in their own | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
country? In 2005, we wrote a detailed letter to Eurostat, dobing | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
in your Government at the time. For, what they were doing in fiddling | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
the Greek's statistics. Three months later, we say they | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
investigated everything and it was above board, so we better shut up. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
The billions oweed upped the Goldman swap is a small piece of | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
the 350 billion euros, that Greece owes today, only a fraction that | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
will ever be repaid. That 5.7 billion simpliess the sip tenseives | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
for Greeks to fiddle debt, and banks to cook up deals, and | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
Brussels institution toss look the other way. If, you put me back to | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
2001, would you do that again, I would say, no not because of the | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
economics behind it, probably design it a little bit differently, | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
if I knew that September 2011 would happen, but I would never do the | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
type of business because of the political handling and risks of | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
this deal afterwards. Newsnight approached Goldman Sachs but they | :17:22. | :17:32. | |
:17:32. | :17:51. | ||
declined. In a statement they told In and thes today, the legacy of | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
Utopian financial experiment is unstable angry society, reeling | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
from four years of recession, with no end in sight. The Greeks, who | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
itchmented and analyseed these transactions, agree it was a toxic | :18:05. | :18:12. | |
import that played on the weakness,s a sub-prime in the US | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
bankers played on the weak necessarys. The Euro failed the | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
Greeks. Greece is poise today default on the debt and leave the | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
eurozone. Germany and EU institutions expressed outrage how | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
the Greeks cheated their way to disaster. That's hypocrisy. Back in | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
2003, the story of how legalised financial trickery was roting the | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
eurozone from the inside wasn't something the guardians of the Euro | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
want to hear, so they ignored it. It is tempting to ask, whether a | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
single currency, held together with such toxic glue is actually worth | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
saving. Well, joining us now from Athens, is Giorgos Papaconstantinou, | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
until the middle of last year, he was Greece as financial minister, | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
now he is minister for the environment. And also with us, is | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
John Redwood. Mr Giorgos Papaconstantinou, forgive me, I'm | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
so sorry, when you look at that inkoch tense, it is not surprising | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
the northern Europeans want to keep a very close eye on how you get | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
access to any further loans? I can see how the Goldman Sachs story is | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
sexy as your video says. But I don't think it is justice to what | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
is happening in Brussels tonight which is a bigger picture. A few | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
points, point number one, everybody was doing it. Every country in the | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
eurozone was using these kinds of tricks to reduce their debt back | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
then. The difference with Greece is when the rules changeed in 2008, | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
the same Finance Minister you had in the video, saying how terrible | :20:04. | :20:12. | |
it was, forgot to declare it with Eurostat. To pack maick it | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
absolutely clear, this was after the entry in the eurozone, so it | :20:15. | :20:24. | |
had no effect for the rules of us entering. And the debt of 160% of | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
GDP, those% the Goldman Sachs swap was about, is important but it is | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
not the story. The story is about overspending, and receiving less | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
than the taxes that were due to the state. Over years and years, this | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
is where we're at. We will come to tonight in a moment or two. First | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
on the Goldman Sachs story, you used to work in the banking world, | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
what do you make of it? I'm not surprised that Goldman Sachs went | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
off and came up with a clever scheme, which rewarded them as well, | :20:57. | :21:05. | |
because that was the brief they were given. An alleged 600 million | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
Euros. But the mainvilleens in the story are the sponsoring Government | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
that want to do this kind of thing and lost the money, and the | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
European authority who seem to connive at it. Nobody was saying it | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
was illegal, it was Legal Business, and they got the reduction of debt | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
for the period of time they want. What do you make the European | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
authority signed off on it? It is quite wrong, but we know, as we've | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
been hearing from Greece, a lot of countries, massageed or arrangeed | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
their figures to get in the Euro and some carried on doing so | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
afterwards to conform with the sensible rules. We know it was | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
because, most countries ignoreed the rules and got into the Euro, | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
when their figures was way out of order, that we have the crisis | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
we're now facing. There is a big question, these people ought to be | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
answering, why did they turn their backs on it, they must have known | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
what was going on, both the "euroland" people and the national | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
state Government have access to great financial and legal advice, | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
so it is difficult to believe they didn't know what Goldman Sachs was | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
doing. So they turned a blind eye. Mr Papaconstantinou, let talk about | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
tonight and what's going to happen. One more point on the previous | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
story. It is important to remember, the two countries that breached the | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
Maastricht criteria were France and Germany. When Eurostat asked for | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
audit powers to be able to know exactly what's going on in the | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
various countries, the cubs that did the not give them audit powers | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
from the large countries, against France and Germany. And yauro stat | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
only got audit powers after the Greeks statistical mess came to | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
light, after we came claep - the new Government at the time, what | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
the you in numbers were. This is a telling story, of the failings. | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
Everybody was up to no good in one form or another. Let's turn to | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
tonight, are you confident there will be a deal? I think there will | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
be a deal. My understanding is as we speak, the differences are | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
narrowing, it is a question of getting the projection of the debt | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
in 2020 to be around 120%, which the European council decided and | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
the assurance that is will make the finance ministers of the eurozone | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
members comfortable for the new package for Greece. It is an | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
important decision. Because it can turn the page for Greece. It can | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
stabilise the rest of the eurozone. And we can move forward. Do you | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
think it will turn the page as we've just heard? No I'm afraid it | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
won't. The great tragedy is we may get a deal tonight but it delays | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
making the necessary adjustments, the need to be made to give the | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
Greek economy some chance of recovery. We've had several years | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
of depression or recession, because they're locked into a system that | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
doesn't work for them and the wrong exchange rate. If they patch it, it | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
doesn't produce a miracle cure. Why would the second package work when | :24:17. | :24:24. | |
the first one didn't. If the Dutch have their way, there will be | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
representatives of the three main financial institutions involved, in | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
Athens, making sure that you do as you say you'll do. Will the Greeks | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
accept that? Well, let not make a big deal what is actually pretty | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
much common practice. The IMF has a resident office in France, they're | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
there all the time. So I don't think there's an issue in having a | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
permanent presence of the troika. If I could respond, the two ways to | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
go forward. One is to declare bankruptcy and leave the Euro. A | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
lot of people say that. Those who say it, seriously underestimate the | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
economic and social cost for the Greeks, the Greek economy, and the | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
repercussions on the rest of tkpwruerp Europe. The other way is | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
hard, go forward by the necessary austerity and structural reforms | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
that give the country a capacity to grow again. It is not an easy road | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
and there's no magic bullets. We need the first programme, because | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
the first one did not have enough time to get the job done. This is | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
the better of the two roads. What would happen if you left the Euro? | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
Well, last Sunday the Greek Parliament voted on the new | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
austerity package, by a large two- thirds majority. If it voted | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
against, then the eurozone would stop, the aid programme for Greece, | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
and then in the next morning you would have queues outside the banks, | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
people trying to send the money out of the country. By midday, would | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
you have to shut down the banking system, by the end of the day, you | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
couldn't buy medicines from abroad or fuel, oil and gas, and soon we | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
wouldn't pay pensions and salaries. That's what would happen. People | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
talk about the exit of the Euro, if they can be done in an automatic | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
way. That's not the way it works. If you are outside, you can think | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
about dedevalueing, you do the adjustments that are necessary to | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
stay within the eurozone in a competitive world. John Redwood who | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
do you think what would happen? you plan it, it wouldn't happen. 87 | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
countries, have left single currency, since the Second World | :26:50. | :26:58. | |
War, you plan it, and on a given day, announce the day, and it | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
hasity powers to protectity banks and print the currency. You devalue | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
and establish a new market rate, and that cut your debt burden and | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
makes you competitive. From that moment, you have a chance of | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
recovery. Iceland did it, and Iceland are in a better position | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
than Greece that is old yerg on. Now, tonight, it's my pleasure to | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
introduce our new political editor, Allegra Stratton once a producer on | :27:25. | :27:32. | |
this programme and latterly of the Guardian, it is always about | :27:32. | :27:39. | |
finding diamonds in dunghills, but there have been few from Allegra. | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
Lib Dems want a significant policy to lift the rate of income tax. So | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
before that level, you wouldn't pay any income tax and they want to | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
bring that 2010. Tories liked that, so it baims a coalition pledge. Now | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
what we're hearing is the Lib Dems think this should be faster, | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
furious further. And we don't know what the Tories think, because they | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
think they're not going public how they will negotiate ahead of the | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
Budget. Today we're talking to David Laws why they want to go | :28:11. | :28:20. | |
further, faster, more furious, what I find is if it could be brought in | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
more quickly T would end austerity. I haven't talked to anyone that | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
thinks there's a silver bullet, for austerity and yet this is what the | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
Lib Dems want to that end. He is for many Conservatives, their | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
favourite Lib Dem. When David was in charge of Treasury and in charge | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
of spending cut, George Osborne said it was as if he was put on | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
earth to do the job that was asked of him. But now, in his first | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
television interview, since resigning from the cabinet, David | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
Laws stels George Osborne the time has come to begin answered to | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
austerity. We have to distinguish between the period of austerity for | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
public spending, and public services which is clearly going to | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
go on for a period of time, from the austerity we've seen for | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
household budgets. They've been falling since 2008. Now we've | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
completed most of the tax increases, now we're seeing inflation this | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
year, on a firm downward track, that gives us the opportunity, if | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
we can make these other reductions in taxation, by increasing the | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
income tax thresh holds, as Nick Clegg has suggested, that gives us | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
the opportunity of ending the austerity and household budgets and | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
allowing the Budget of most people, the household budgets of most | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
people, to start expanded from this year to next year. That would make | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
a big difference to the economy and millions of people, who have been | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
through one of the toughest periods in terms of household budgets in | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
living memory. Nick Clegg called for an increase in personal | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
allowances for low and middle earners, but now unone of the | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
advisers raced the stakes. By making the claim it would end | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
austerity, language used by the Opposition, David Laws is telling | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
the Chancellor there's an alternative. The big question | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
remains, how will they pay for it? Will they, for instance, rule out | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
cuts on low and middle income earners to fund the policy. In | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
terms of the party's principles, is it your bottom line now, that any | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
of this, income and thresh holds has to be funded from the well off, | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
it cannot be funded from taking of tax credits? We certainly don't | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
want to be see any measures that would fund the personal allowance | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
that would be regressive. It would be bizarre to take from low incomes, | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
to other people. You're ruling that out? Yes. Measures that would fund | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
the personal allowance by taking money off people on middle and low | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
incomes. The pensions of the most wealthy appear to be in their | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
sights? I suspect what the Government will look at is whether, | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
for the most of fluent, 5%, and 5% of people, across all the | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
allowances, in the system for people, we can make changes, that | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
take away some of the subs zis that are going to the top 1% or 5% delix, | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
and get to them where they're needed. Green faxes has been | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
floated, can you go for a green tax, when that might push up bills more? | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
There is a real issue in the short- term, about whether we would want | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
to add, for example, to petrol and energy bills at a time when oil | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
prices have spiraled higher and people's household budgets have | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
been squeezed. To add further to the green taxes with high energy | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
price sincere, something that would not be sensible to do in the short- | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
term. Let look at two alternative ideas being floated, the | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
Conservatives, are our old friend an anonymous sources, why not use | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
the money you are suggested that can be found, use with employers to | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
help with national insurance, so they hire more people? The agreed | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
priority on tax, if the coalition Government is to raise the personal | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
allowance to �10,000, that's what we agreed when the two party got | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
together. That takes precedence over all the other tax priority. | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
Are the libkems right? Could their policy unsqueeze the squeezed | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
middle? Our forecasts take thoo account policies that are announced | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
and middle income is to fall slightly in 2012, but it wouldn't | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
take much to reverse that, and have a small rise, like a give away in a | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
higher personal allowance. Are the Lib Dems, now, Britain's tax | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
cutting party? I think that we are. That will make Conservatives | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
bristle. Opinion on their side ranges the Chancellor should not | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
allow the Lib Dems to own the proposal. Then there is some that | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
propose different tax cuts. And others of a recent warning of the | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
down grade in credit rating, allowance no room for manoeuvre. | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
Conservatives are saying the lick democrat may get the increaseness | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
that Lib Dems, like David Laws are calling for, but there's irritation | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
in the manner if not not the substantial. Is They don't | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
understand why they went early, when David Cameron's loyal advisers, | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
met to discuss long-term strategy, they talked about whether the Lib | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
Dem bail earlier from Government. Do you understand why people are | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
irritated? What I would say as a strong supporter of the coalition, | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
you don't end up with a destructive prose, where both parties are | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
trying to block the proposals, so you independent up with a paralysis, | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
where the Government doesn't get things done. A constructive one | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
will make the coalition more sustainable because the two party | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
will feel happier. And it leads to a competition of ideas, which is | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
potentially good for the country. The Lib Dems have put down a marker | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
they think they can ease the squeeze for the less well off. They | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
want credit from the electorate for trying to do so, if it happens or | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
not. With many cut yet to take effect, the credibility of their | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
claim will be tested. Allegra is still here. I think I can see why | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
you journalists are exr excited about it, but for the public why is | :34:49. | :34:55. | |
it significant? Because, the general public, they know all three | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
political leaders talk about the squeezed middle. It is Ed Miliband | :35:01. | :35:09. | |
phrase, but the other two have jumped on the wagon. When for the | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
previous three years, no-one's talked about the squeezed middle, | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
like it is an easy thing that can go away. We knew they wanted it | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
from the Budget, but we didn't know what magic wand it would end up | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
being. Everybody I talked to over the past year or two years, when | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
you talked about the squeezed middle, for many out there, it is | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
not a theme, it is a way of life, I understand that. But in terms of | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
the political leaders, if they thought it was a way to solve it | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
like that, they would have done it. There's no doubt that David Laws is | :35:43. | :35:51. | |
speaking for the party here? don't doubt it. He is one of Nick | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
Clegg's closest advisers, he doesn't absolve from that label. He | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
is one of the most respected economic minds in not just the Lib | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
Dems but the Government. He is also a big, as he said in the package, a | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
big zel leb for the coalition, still. First, Daniel Finkelstein | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
and Steve Richards are here to shed more light on this. What do you | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
make of it? Well, two things, first, the Lib Dems, even the so-called, | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
orange book Lib Dems, like Nick Clegg and David Laws were always | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
pretty ardent, believers in redistribution through tax. I | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
remember before the election, they were more overt about their support | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
for redistribution, the Gordon Brown, who never used the word, | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
redistribution, didn't dare do so, even though policies did it. | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
They've been keen on the specific policy. Of course it was part of a | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
coalition agreement they would reach, to get people out on low pay | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
out of tax. It is more the manner in way they're promoting this | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
particular policy now, to make it absolutely clear, to the voters, | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
that come the Budget, this will have campaigned for something they | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
believed to be fair, and that they're determined to be associated | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
with, if, and when it is announced. Is George Osborne going to pay | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
attention? He will have to, and I think he will want to. Reducing tax | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
on people is what Conservatives believe and want to do, so | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
therefore, this doesn't cause a fundamental problem. This is one of | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
the glues in the amendment. I am less keen, because if you take | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
people out of tax, they become less responsible for what we spend | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
publicly. This proposal that David Laws goes out and tries to promote | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
the Lib Dems doing it, the problem is in ordertor people to take this | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
idea, they'll have to know who David Laws was and was a tax | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
allowance was. And few people know either of one of those things. | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
That's not cynical, that is what happens when you poll people. They | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
don't know what these things are. They will judge, whether they're | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
better off. It is interesting, isn't it the way in which language | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
is changing, attitudes are changing, too, about the rich and the tax.El | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
What's happened here, or is what happening? When there's no growth, | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
fairness becomes a bigger issue and people get scratchy about fairness | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
issues. Part is reflected in debate about tax, whether the well off is | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
taxed enough and other is reflected in other issues, welfare fraud, | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
emgration, these become emgration issue. It is a big change anding | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
from one. I read most days, since the financial crash the debate in | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
Britain and elsewhere, has moved to the right. Tax, in 199, Gordon | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
Brown and Tony Blair didn't dare say thinking about putting the top | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
rate of tax up. And now you have David Cameron and George Osborne | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
who would die to cut that top rate and all the focus is how you get | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
the low paid and pay less tax and as David Laws implied, get the | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
money from the wealthy as welfare reform. So the focus has changed | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
and to talk about redistribution in some shape or other, has become | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
legitimate. Under Blair and Brown, they didn't utter the words. | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
Because the economy was growing, and therefore people:. They were | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
scared to as well. Scared because they thought they would ruin the | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
thrust of growth. That remains a danger. If you increase tax burden | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
on earning up on the scale, and continues to earn your money that | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
way, you risk retarding growth and that's a risk the Government would | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
run, if it forever, redistributed tax. This is politics, following | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
social change is it? I think it is all created by the fact we've run | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
out of money. In a situation where you've run out of money, how you | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
distribute it, becomes scratchy and ditch. In the 1950s, the Labour | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
Party said it would find it difficult to redistribute it in a | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
situation where there wasn't any growth. He realises it becomes | :40:13. | :40:20. | |
scratchy. It go back to a few years, Blair and Brown loved to be | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
surrounded by bankers, they used them as a shield. Now no-one would | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
go near a banker, so there have been deep changes, in a very short | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
period of time. So, people can talk openly, about whether there should | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
be another tax on banker's bonuses. You are right to raise the issue of | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
growth. But clearly the space between the fairness in the tax | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
system, without jeopardising growth. The important sthing intensifies | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
fairness issues, also like welfare fraud politically, because it is | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
all about, people feeling other people, whoever they are, are | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
putting in, taking out when they haven't put in. When there's no | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
growth and people are feeling pinched that feeling intensifies, | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
not just people at the top end of the spectrum, but like the benefit | :41:16. | :41:23. | |
cap was a popular political measure, because it goes to the bottom area | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
as well. In the end, tax and spend, more than anything else, decides | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
electionness Britain. Thank you. Now it is stop short of saying | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
Britain's borders might have been more secure if they were guarded by | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
Homer Simpson and the dog, but only just. The inquiry into how border | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
controls was suspended, today, res vales a catalogue of ineptness, and | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
confusion at a political level. The Home Secretary's decided as a | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
sequence, to reorganise the whole thing. | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
It was a David Cameron promise, and priority. Real limit, proper | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
enforcement, real control over how many people come here and who they | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
are. But what's transpired is chaos, resignation of a senior civil | :42:14. | :42:22. | |
servant and blame and shame, tossed back and forth. It all invites | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
Mickey Mouse headlines. It turns out in four years, there's no | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
warnings index checks on EU nationals boarding Eurostar trains | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
from EuroDisney and ski resorts. That's about half a million | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
passengers unchecked. Passports we must note were looked at but the | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
extra security measures were too oven suspended forgotten about. The | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
fingerprint checks were suspended no fewer than 480 times in the last | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
15 months. The Home Secretary, who last year, blamed the Border | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
Agency's boss, leading him to quit, now appears to be blaming the | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
entire agency. The Vine Report reveals a border | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
force, that enforced checks without thing, new technologies but chose | :43:11. | :43:19. | |
not to use them. Led to managers that did not communicate with staff, | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
and excluded key information. she didn't say is alongside civil | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
servants her colleagues are accused of lacking clarity, failing to | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
communicate what the Government wanted officials to do. It singles | :43:34. | :43:44. | |
:43:44. | :43:51. | ||
out Damian Green on suspending A former immigration adviser says | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
ministers couldn't have asked the right questions. There was | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
questions they should have been asking about what they were going | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
on at the border, they didn't take interest from an med, which claims | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
to be committed to sorting out. These are obvious questions? | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
Obvious questions like when are the checks spwg suspended, they were | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
supposed to be weekly reports, that they stopped getting and they | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
didn't ask why, there was questions like how many people are turned | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
away, those part of the information were not being given to them, but | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
they should have asked about them. The Home Secretary suggested all | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
the difficulties, dated back to the Labour Government, Labour accused | :44:30. | :44:37. | |
her of ducking responsibility. The watch index checks were | :44:37. | :44:45. | |
suspended zero times in 2007, sim times in 2009, 33 times, in 2010, | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
and 50 times in the first, nine months of 2011. So the clear | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
suggestion in this report is the lack of staff may have increased | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
the problems at the borders agencies in the last year, and | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
she's hidden that information in her statement to Parliament. | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
course, this is all too familiar for a department which, in another | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
context was famously said to be "unfit for purpose". Labour | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
introduced its immigration reforms, now Theresa May say nounsed she's | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
spliting the Border Agency in two. From the March 1, the UK brder | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
force will be split were UCBA and will become a separate operational | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
command with the own law enforcement, and accountability to | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
ministers. A big structural is a class yck tactic, there might be | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
good argument for it, for having a tightly focused boreer force, I | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
myself are sceptical about that. The failings identifyed in this | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
report are all about, everybody in the organisation being clear about, | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
what the policy is and how sincere applied. If you separate it into | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
different agencies, sometimes that gets harder. The other thing is | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
having a big organisation at a time, when the border force is going to | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
try with the Olympics, that's a real risk. Of course, risk is what | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
the Border Agency, is supposed to avert. It is a tall order, and so | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
far, no immigration controls imposed by any Government, have | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
matched up to all the bold promise toss tighten up. Well now before we | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
look at the papers, the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley had a | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
bruising confrontation with a 75- year-old former trade union rep, | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
who tried to block his path, ahead of a meeting at the NHS reforms. | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
promise you, waiting times in the NHS has gone down. I've had enough | :46:44. | :46:52. | |
of you. I've had enough of you. very sorry. Go home and sit. | :46:52. | :46:59. | |
There's no privatisation. There are cuts, don't you dare lie to mefplt | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
Well, she made the front page of most of the newspapers in front, | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
that lady there. She's on the front that lady there. She's on the front | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
page of the times On the front page of the Guardian and the Independent. | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
And Allegra Stratton is still here. What's caught your eye on | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
tomorrow's papers. My former newspaper, they've done a poll and | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
showed the opinion poll lead, that the David Cameron and Conservatives | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
had post of the year, but lost that, because of the handling of the NHS. | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
This won't be a shock, they have lots of polling, some is public, it | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
shows they're lacking on the NHS handling area. The problem for them | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
is the because there's so many reforms is under way, they are | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
looking at least, worse options, you either shelf something, which | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
is not likely and create chaos, because you Sheffield performance | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
in process, and you shelfed something and create more chaos | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
because reform is under way. Even know the ka kakofy grows louder, it | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
won't budge them. It will continue. Well that's all from Newsnight | :48:12. | :48:22. | |
:48:22. | :48:27. | ||
tonight. More tomorrow, until then Hello a much milder light tonight | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
compared to last night, thanks to a thick blanket of cloud. Eastern | :48:32. | :48:41. | |
areas will brighten up but will keep sunshine in the west. | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
We'll see breaks developing in the cloud, towards north-east. Sunny | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
spells possible across southern counties of England. If the sun | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
pops out, temperatures will pop up, up to 1 degrees. | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
South-west will stay cloudy and Wales. A dull damp start, rain | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
peters out. Brighter skies over north-east Wales. The eastern half | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
of Northern Ireland should brighten up, with sunny spells. It will stay | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
damp, in western parts of Scotland. But across the North-East here, | :49:16. | :49:25. | |
temperatures up to 11, and 1. Along the Murray Firth. We could reach 13 | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
on Thursday, but it won't feel like that, because of a strong wind. The | :49:30. | :49:34. |