27/03/2012 Newsnight


27/03/2012

The report into the Summer riots gets leaked. Should we build on the green belt? In search of Germany's new generation of the far right. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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It wasn't just as the Government asserted at the time, pure

:00:08.:00:11.

criminality, according to the panel investigating them, last summer's

:00:11.:00:15.

unpress departmented riots, were the product of bad schools, bad

:00:15.:00:19.

parenting, insufficient jobs and being poor when capitalism dangles

:00:20.:00:24.

luxury in your face. It felt like Christmas had come early, just

:00:24.:00:29.

being able to take all the nice things that you want.

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The diagnosis of the causes of the riots reads like some socialist's

:00:34.:00:39.

check list. And you are wasting your -- sociolologists check list,

:00:39.:00:43.

and you are wasting your time asking for solutions. Is the

:00:43.:00:47.

diagnosis right, and is there a cure.

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We would all like to live here, but does it exist, does the

:00:51.:00:55.

Government's planning policy meet the fears of conservationists.

:00:55.:01:01.

Pity the pieman, can George Osborne be persuaded not to levy VAT on

:01:01.:01:08.

pies and pasties. In their propaganda, this group

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call themselves The Immortals, and so they wear death masks, we go in

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search of Germany's new generation of neo-Nazis.

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TRANSLATION: We need people willing, ready, able and trained, in case it

:01:23.:01:33.
:01:33.:01:34.

comes to civil war. The scene is armed, it is military.

:01:35.:01:40.

The riots last summer were the behaval product of too many young

:01:40.:01:45.

people with nothing to lose. That is the less than earth-shatteringly

:01:45.:01:48.

conclusion of the panel set up to find out what happened.

:01:48.:01:55.

All of us want jobs, a sense of engagment, something to hope for.

:01:55.:01:59.

The report's authors think much of this could be settled if schools

:01:59.:02:03.

built character, or be fined if too few pupils learned to read or write

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well. We will talk about their ideas and if they make sense

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shortly, first Peter Marshall reports.

:02:10.:02:13.

Five days which shook England's cities, shocking the nation, and

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beyond. We know all too well what happened

:02:16.:02:20.

last August, but why? Those involved insist there were

:02:20.:02:23.

causes. Of course there was a reason behind

:02:23.:02:29.

it, why would it all kick off. It wouldn't kick off for no reason.

:02:29.:02:35.

Even the Prime Minister, whose initial response was to blame

:02:35.:02:39.

commoner garden thieving and looting, was soon announcing

:02:39.:02:43.

policies to tackle deeper roots. believe it is only by recognising a

:02:43.:02:47.

problem that you can fix what has actually gone wrong. This summer,

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we saw, beyond doubt, that something has gone profoundly wrong.

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To get to grips with that profound wrong, Mr Cameron set up the

:02:55.:02:59.

Troubled Families Programme, promising to turn around the lives

:02:59.:03:04.

of 120,000 families identified as causing crime or anti-social

:03:04.:03:07.

behaviour. Unfortunately, according to the riots report, these weren't

:03:07.:03:13.

the families who had rioted. The report says of the Troubled

:03:13.:03:23.
:03:23.:03:30.

So this forgotten half million are the problem of the What we argue in

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the report is the principles within the Troubled Families Programme

:03:34.:03:39.

need to be expanded to focus on those forgotten families, as we

:03:40.:03:42.

call them. Matt Cavanagh was an adviser for the Home Office in

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Labour's time, he says the current Government's Troubled Families

:03:45.:03:49.

Programme now looks wide of the mark. It looks like a classic

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response of a politician reaching for a policy solution in the middle

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of a crisis, reaching for something they had bubbling in the background

:03:58.:04:04.

any way, and using them to get them through the few difficult weeks in

:04:04.:04:08.

August. They should keep going with it, but shouldn't pretend it is a

:04:08.:04:13.

solution to the riots. The rioters had two targets, the police and

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expensive products. They were fuelled by resentment of the first,

:04:15.:04:25.
:04:25.:04:26.

and desire for the second. The It felt like Christmas had come

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early, just being able to take all the nice things that you wanted.

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When you get a chance to put your hands on things like that you feel

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good. The report criticises the police,

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particularly in London, saying, the Met can dramatically improve their

:04:42.:04:52.
:04:52.:04:52.

As for solutions, the report notes most of those who riots were under

:04:53.:04:58.

24, and poorly educated. It says school should have policies to

:04:58.:05:02.

build pupils' character, regularly assessing their strength of

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character. It also says schools which fail to educate pupils

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properly should be fined, and it addresses the scourge of youth

:05:12.:05:15.

unemployment. Now, when you have unemployment at around a million,

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it is interesting and helpful that the report recommends a guarantee

:05:18.:05:23.

of a job for young people who have been unemployed for over a year. It

:05:23.:05:27.

costs about �400 million to do that for all those who have been

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unemployed for over a year. Is that a problem for the report, that

:05:31.:05:35.

things aren't costed? In that case, it is a sensible policy. They would

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have to say how it is paid for. It is fair criticism of the report

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that it recommends a wide number of things we would all like to see

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happen, for example, one-to-one support for kids falling behind in

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school, the challenge is how to pay for it, what other things do we cut

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to make that possible. The worst public disorder in a

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generation was the result of multiple causes, with dreadful

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consequences. The riots report makes no fewer than 63

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recommendations, many will cost dear. Does the Government now turn

:06:07.:06:12.

its attention to the newly- identified half a million forgotten

:06:12.:06:16.

families, the young unemployed, commercialisation, the police,

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schools building stronger characters, where to start? Let's

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see if we have ideas now. The authors of the report are so cross

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it has been leaked before its formal publication tomorrow, they

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don't want to talk about it tonight. We have the Tottenham MP, David

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Lammy, who recently wrote a book about the riots.

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We have a former speechwriter for David Cameron and work he is with

:06:44.:06:49.

young people. And Pauline Pearce, who confronted rioters in Hackney.

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Have you learned anything new from this report? No, obviously a lot of

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the issues, as the MP for Tottenham, are very real to me, and indeed, I

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talked about after the summer. I think there are issues in relation

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to worklessness, particularly, issues around materialism and

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consumerism, fatherlessness, I think, is a real problem. Coming to

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some of those in a few minutes, there is a lot of waffle in the

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report, but there are specific injunctions, hard to see how it

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could be realised, schools teaching moral character, is that doable?

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one of the institutions responsible for looking after young people,

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they should be thinking about that. I think it is a remarkable report,

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because of that agenda. For the first time, in an official public,

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political report, we have recommendations around character,

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around the principle that young people make moral choices, and that

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we should be bolstering the values and attitudes and habits which

:07:47.:07:51.

encourage them to make the right choices, rather than automatically

:07:51.:07:54.

assuming that the only answer is more money, or better system, all

:07:54.:07:58.

of which are important, but this emphasis on character and

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resilience they are making is key. I don't want to embarrass you, we

:08:02.:08:08.

will remind our viewers of when we saw you last summer. You are in

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this clip we are going to see now, you are actually confronting the

:08:13.:08:16.

rioters and asking specifically that they behave in a morally

:08:16.:08:19.

different kind of way. Let's have a quick look. She's working hard to

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make her business work, and you lot want to go and burn it up, for what,

:08:24.:08:30.

just to say you are badman? Now, the key thing here, is how you

:08:30.:08:35.

encourage people to have a different sort of moral character,

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do you have any ideas about that? We have to change the mind set. It

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is going to be hard, but because these children have been brought up

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with no, it is -- not no parental guidance, a lot of discipline has

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been taken away from parents, and after the riots it was parents

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bring your children in, how can you, when Littlejohny hasn't been

:09:01.:09:06.

listening to you for ten years, because if you raise your hand he

:09:06.:09:10.

will ring the police, and you have a court case on your hands for

:09:10.:09:12.

disciplining your child. Is there enough about individual

:09:12.:09:17.

responsibility in this analysis? there enough? I think each person's

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responsible for themselves, when they get to a certain age, you know

:09:20.:09:29.

right from wrong. Now, how do you inculcate that idea? The first

:09:29.:09:33.

thing to say is most of the rioters were not school age. There is a lot

:09:33.:09:43.
:09:43.:09:44.

of attention on young people, these were adults. At 21 you were

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responsible for your own actions, the chap who burnt down that

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building in Croydon was 30. There are deep, cultural, social issues

:09:52.:09:56.

here, and, of course, very poor policing at the beginning of this

:09:56.:10:00.

riot, led to a vacuum in which people felt, I'll just take my

:10:00.:10:03.

opportunity. But the question is, why did they feel no sense of shame,

:10:03.:10:09.

no sense of guilt, no sense of stake in terms of taking that

:10:09.:10:12.

responsibility. That's not, I think, about laying it at the door of

:10:12.:10:17.

schools. I think teachers are hard- pressed as it is, they are doing

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loads. I do think it is about Government and jobs, and those

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sorts of things, I also think it is about parents, communities, and

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actually addressing some of the economic problems in this country,

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that have gone on under successive Governments, pulling away from

:10:34.:10:37.

communities and families, not supporting them. What can be done

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to encourage people to take more responsibility for their own

:10:41.:10:45.

behaviour? I think we need to be clearer about what the consequences

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of behaving badly are. We need to be very straight forward about

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criminality, and what that institutes, and -- constitutes, and

:10:56.:11:00.

not pretending that what was going on was a political protest. Making

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it clear that the whole victim mentality, and the victim culture,

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the cynicism. I work with ex- offenders and young people, many of

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whom have had terrible upbringings and come through really difficult

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circumstances, many of them have a really good attitude to their own

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lives and responsibilities, there is also this huge culture of

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cynicism. And this great sense that all the institutions in our country

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is corrupt, everyone from the journalist, the politicians, and

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the bankers are in it for themselves and out on the take, and

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there is no sense in which they themselves can be expected to

:11:31.:11:34.

behave better. I'm not blaming the people at the top, but there is a

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general culture of encouraging people not to be responsibility.

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You dismiss the idea of victimhood, the report mentions, look at

:11:41.:11:45.

materialism, some extremely clever, very well resourced people, are

:11:46.:11:49.

telling young people that the only way they can respect themselves and

:11:49.:11:55.

be respected by others, is by acquiring bits of clothing, bits of

:11:55.:12:01.

electronic junk, overpriced, which they cannot afford. It is social

:12:01.:12:05.

acceptance, it is breeding that. It is making these children feel and

:12:05.:12:09.

adults, let's face it, there are adults out there that feel the same,

:12:09.:12:12.

you are not accepted in the community or society, lest you are

:12:13.:12:17.

boping down the road in the latest name-brand clothes. It is all about

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that out there, I don't care what anyone else says, I live there, I

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see it every day. It is all about, I need a new pair of trainers, I

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have to get this much and that much. We could get advertisers to be more

:12:33.:12:38.

responsible, but the rest of us learn how to resist advertising and

:12:38.:12:41.

defer gratification, advertising will always encourage us to buy and

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consume. I have to say, this is the liberalism we have tole challenge.

:12:45.:12:49.

It is the economic liberalism that says you are free to make money,

:12:49.:12:54.

however you want, and there are consequences, and particular

:12:54.:12:58.

consequences in societies like our's, America has a similar

:12:58.:13:01.

problem, at the poorest end, and at the workless end. So it does mean

:13:01.:13:05.

we have got to look again at banning advertising. At

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particularly for young people. We have to challenge. It is

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unacceptable for the chief executive of JD Sports to say fine,

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this helps my brand. There is a problem there, and Government can

:13:17.:13:20.

do and legislate to change that. There probably is a role for

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Government there, there is a role for our culture, we need to object

:13:24.:13:28.

that sort of brand promotion, it is not for Government to be insisting

:13:28.:13:31.

on how different companies project themselves. What about the point

:13:31.:13:35.

that is made about the 500,000 families, the report talks about

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"bumping along on the bottom of society". That is a very, very

:13:39.:13:43.

significant number of people, isn't it? For me, personally, I'm glad

:13:43.:13:47.

they have accepted that this report has shown that. Because it is

:13:47.:13:50.

nothing short of what I have been saying from day one on every

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interview I have had, since the riots. It is about, there are very

:13:57.:14:02.

poor class families out there, really scraping along to make ends

:14:02.:14:07.

meet. And the cuts haven't made things any easier on them. I think

:14:07.:14:11.

there is a group of working poor, parents who actually do care, but

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are working really long hours, often in two jobs, security guard

:14:16.:14:20.

and minicab driver, and then there are a group of workless poor, it is

:14:20.:14:25.

not just worklessness for the children, it is the parents, it is

:14:25.:14:28.

successive generations. That is what combines areas like Tottenham,

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with areas like Salford, and other parts of the country, where we saw

:14:32.:14:37.

riots. Successive generations. poverty doesn't he can cues moral

:14:37.:14:45.

judgment? It doesn't, it is actual -- Excuse moral judgment?

:14:45.:14:48.

doesn't, for every rioter there were hundreds who did not riot,

:14:48.:14:51.

that is a success story. That is why I'm nervous about the

:14:51.:14:56.

assumption that we can blame it all on schools. In Tottenham we got the

:14:56.:15:01.

best GCSE and A-level results last summer, nobody chose to cover it.

:15:01.:15:05.

Nevertheless, it does feel like these entrenched problems, in

:15:05.:15:08.

England particularly, are getting worse, not better. Unless we are

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serious in addressing it. This shouldn't just be another report

:15:12.:15:16.

that festers and we do nothing about it, we will see further

:15:16.:15:20.

unrest, I'm absolutely sure about that. On the families policy, the

:15:20.:15:23.

report seems to make a distinction between the troubled families, that

:15:23.:15:29.

the Government is targeted, and the 500,000 families that are bumping

:15:29.:15:33.

along the bottom. I can't believe there is a huge distinction between

:15:33.:15:37.

them. The Government's Troubled Families Programme, I think, is on

:15:37.:15:41.

the right tracks, trying to consolidate all the services and

:15:41.:15:44.

all the budgets, all the professional agencies, which tinker

:15:44.:15:47.

about with the lives of very difficult circumstances for

:15:47.:15:51.

families, and bringing it together. It might be a technocratic response,

:15:51.:15:55.

I believe ultimately it is the you will culture we need to address,

:15:55.:15:58.

but Government is deeply involved in the lives of these families,

:15:58.:16:02.

they are on the right track. We will leave it there. Thank you

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very much. The Government has either come up

:16:04.:16:08.

with a brilliant way of liberating the economy from a lot of

:16:08.:16:11.

unnecessary restrictions, or it has put all sorts of places in the land

:16:11.:16:15.

at risk of bulldozers and concrete mixers. The headlines of the new

:16:15.:16:19.

planning laws are simple enough to right, a bonfire of regulation, a

:16:19.:16:24.

system of clear priorities, and all implemented at once. The problem,

:16:24.:16:29.

as ever, is interpretation, what do words like "sustainable

:16:29.:16:32.

development", which is what's supposed to be the underlying

:16:32.:16:42.
:16:42.:16:54.

principle, actually mean. Before we Sir Frederick Osborn was one of the

:16:54.:16:59.

founders of welling garden city, in its time a pioneer town. It was

:16:59.:17:03.

planned 50 years ago, to give a better life to people from the

:17:03.:17:11.

crowded cities. Today urban planning is a

:17:11.:17:15.

desiccated endurance test, but it was, a pleasurable past time. In

:17:15.:17:18.

the 90 years since Sir Frederick was at it, the rate of house

:17:18.:17:23.

building has not recovered. Not perfect, but popular, that is

:17:23.:17:27.

how David Cameron described places like this, we willing garden city,

:17:27.:17:35.

he wants more such -- -- he wants more such towns built. When the

:17:35.:17:40.

planning laws were less strict in the 1950s, people could build nice

:17:40.:17:44.

places to live. The new laws today won't just apply to existing towns

:17:44.:17:50.

but new communities as well. People are fearful of that. A lot of it is

:17:50.:17:55.

imprecise, and open to subjective judgment, you will have arguments

:17:55.:17:59.

between local authorities and councils, it could be a problem.

:17:59.:18:04.

What is our instinct for a Government wanting this to be a

:18:04.:18:07.

pro-growth policy? I have no problem with pro-growth, it needs

:18:07.:18:10.

to be tempered with consideration about what impact their policies

:18:10.:18:14.

are having on a community in which it is applied. Today the Government

:18:14.:18:16.

think they have come up with something their critics will buy,

:18:16.:18:21.

the Chancellor was unrepentant, it is a pro-growth Government. When I

:18:21.:18:24.

launched the growth strategy last year, I said planning reform was a

:18:24.:18:28.

critical party of it, a central measure. A year later we have, with

:18:28.:18:32.

all the challenges of making sure it is properly consulted on and so

:18:32.:18:37.

on, implemented a policy that comes into effect today. No-one, to my

:18:37.:18:40.

knowledge, has changed planning rules in this country in a

:18:40.:18:47.

generation as quickly as we have. Before contemplating digs up green

:18:47.:18:51.

field, there is now guidance that brownfield sites and town centres

:18:51.:18:54.

must be built on first. There is also a statement that the

:18:55.:18:59.

countryside has an intrinsic value, something not set out before. But

:18:59.:19:02.

the presumption in favour of sustainable development remains.

:19:02.:19:11.

The Treasury insists its critics have only really run expanded

:19:12.:19:16.

definitions. Do these 50 pages do enough for the foot soldiers of

:19:16.:19:24.

Osborne,. My concern is it will get mixed up with localism and a whole

:19:25.:19:30.

range of other debates. I see no sign or indication that the level

:19:30.:19:36.

of bureaucracy will be reduced. home of shredded wheat was in this

:19:36.:19:41.

town, and there was a push to turn the old HQ into Tesco's, it was

:19:41.:19:44.

blocked by locals, and its champions don't think today's

:19:44.:19:54.

reforms would change that decision. Instead, one of the main critics,

:19:54.:19:57.

the National Trust, declared, fairly quickly, they were happy

:19:57.:20:02.

with the new reforms. The Campaign to Protect Rural England is too.

:20:02.:20:08.

There was definitely proposals to build four or five thousand houses

:20:08.:20:13.

on these fields there. You sound upbeat, but there is that phrase,

:20:13.:20:20.

"the presumption of sustainable building". It was explained very

:20:20.:20:23.

clearly. Even though the phrase is there? It is the golden thread

:20:23.:20:27.

running through the planning policy, is the "presumption of sustainable

:20:27.:20:32.

development", the first worry is there is not a serious definition

:20:32.:20:35.

of sustainable, we we know what it means, but there is the presumption

:20:35.:20:39.

in favour of development, it is a growth tool, it is all about the

:20:39.:20:43.

economic growth. Our concern has always been that economic growth

:20:43.:20:46.

becomes paramount over everything else, including looking after

:20:46.:20:54.

beautiful countryside like this. Only years ahead of Welling Garden

:20:54.:20:58.

City's centinary, the Government is trying to mimic the house building

:20:58.:21:04.

frenzy of that era. The critics have their concerns but have got

:21:04.:21:09.

enough to stay quiet. The romantic utopia's the of the

:21:09.:21:19.
:21:19.:21:19.

20s, to the not so pro-growth policy of the 2012.

:21:20.:21:23.

We have our guests with us. The last time you were on, you said you

:21:23.:21:26.

had a whole pile of stores you wanted to open, but planning was

:21:26.:21:30.

holding you back, will this framework, which is now being

:21:30.:21:34.

implemented, change that? Yes, it will. It will make a big difference.

:21:34.:21:37.

What it will mean is people will have to have a good reason to say

:21:37.:21:40.

no. There are lots of good reasons to say no, but in the past it has

:21:40.:21:44.

been no is the answer, now you come and tell me why you should create

:21:44.:21:48.

jobs and this new job. Are these changes to the policy announced

:21:49.:21:52.

today sufficient to persuade you it is worth giving a whirl to? Yes,

:21:52.:21:58.

frankly, we had a dreadful document before. It was really a cowboy's

:21:58.:22:02.

charter, frankly, we had a huge campaign about it, the Government

:22:02.:22:04.

listened. They have made substantive changes, real changes.

:22:04.:22:08.

The difference of tone in the document, it reads differently t

:22:08.:22:11.

has not been written by a lobbyist but a planner. It is a good

:22:11.:22:14.

document. A lot of things we are worried about, we can talk about

:22:14.:22:19.

those, basic clo we are supportive. What are you wore -- Basically we

:22:19.:22:22.

are supportive. What are you worried about? The concept you were

:22:22.:22:25.

talking about, sustainable development. I wonder if you both

:22:25.:22:31.

understand the same thing by it? The document expands it drapbl

:22:31.:22:36.

mattically, I still -- Dramatically. I think there will be litigation

:22:36.:22:44.

galore about it, anyone who thinks it will shorten the planning policy,

:22:44.:22:47.

it won't. What do you understand the sustainable development to

:22:47.:22:53.

mean? I'm not sure about the word "sustainable". Why are you in

:22:53.:22:56.

favour of the policy? I think development creates jobs and the

:22:56.:22:59.

homes we need, that will be vital to get the economy going. If you

:22:59.:23:02.

ask me what I think sustainable means and what the Government mean

:23:02.:23:06.

by it, I think they mean something in 50 years time we will look at

:23:07.:23:12.

and say I'm glad we built that. you share this view that

:23:12.:23:15.

development is absolutely key to growth? There is no evidence at all,

:23:15.:23:19.

there is no evidence that the planning system in Britain

:23:19.:23:23.

constrained growth. I'm sure Simon could find cases where he was

:23:23.:23:27.

infuriated by being turned down. I have been turned down in my time.

:23:27.:23:31.

Sometimes for a perfectly good reason, that is not planning, it is

:23:31.:23:36.

a bad original proposal. Broadly speaking, 90% of all applications

:23:36.:23:42.

get approved. The system is not rotten. What was bad was the delay

:23:42.:23:48.

and the pernickityness of some of the controls. There were detailed

:23:48.:23:53.

controls imposed by planners on the form of the building. It was

:23:53.:23:57.

clearly pro-growth to buy a development in favour of urban

:23:57.:24:01.

renewal. The previous Government was against that. It actually --

:24:01.:24:05.

previous development was against that. It removed the presumption

:24:05.:24:11.

and has been reinstated. If the National Trust and various others

:24:11.:24:14.

are in favour of the new policy, I wonder if it is as key to growth as

:24:14.:24:22.

you seem to suggest? It is key to growth I think there was: It is

:24:23.:24:29.

funny that you have come completely contradicty conclusions? This was

:24:29.:24:34.

never the threat to the the countryside that people thought it

:24:34.:24:41.

was. Planning is an enormous barrier to growth. You may say it

:24:41.:24:46.

is not, I have 15 shops I would like to open on brownfield sites,

:24:46.:24:50.

and would have 1,000 jobs for people, and I can't do it because

:24:50.:24:54.

of planning. You are saying it is not holding back growth, but it is.

:24:54.:25:00.

It is holding back your shops, one could say 12 shops are closing down

:25:00.:25:04.

for all of your shops. Planning is not about profit, it is about the

:25:04.:25:09.

best way to allocate land. I said growth and jobs, not profit. I hope

:25:09.:25:13.

in your case it is profitable, but either way, the essence of this

:25:14.:25:17.

thing is plan, the previous development was effectively a

:25:17.:25:20.

building permit system, like in Ireland or Spain. It was a bad

:25:20.:25:22.

document. You thought it was terrific, I thought it was dreadful.

:25:23.:25:26.

It is gone. We now have a planning- based approach, which is what we

:25:26.:25:30.

had before, which is the right way of approaching this. It is nothing

:25:30.:25:34.

to do with growth. We are both in favour of growth, I think all

:25:34.:25:39.

development is favour of growth, and conservation is in favour of

:25:39.:25:42.

growth. Growth happens when the demand in the economy is right. Our

:25:42.:25:46.

concern was to protect the countryside. I think this document

:25:46.:25:50.

more protects the countryside than was the case before. More protects

:25:50.:25:54.

the countryside, yet you believe it is critical to growth? Absolutely,

:25:54.:25:57.

I don't believe that actually concreting over the countryside was

:25:57.:26:01.

what growth is all about. There may be a small amount of unattractive

:26:01.:26:04.

countryside that is required for growth. What do you think has

:26:04.:26:07.

changed in this legislation? don't think a great deal has

:26:07.:26:13.

changed. The protection for green belt was there, and areas of

:26:13.:26:17.

outstanding natural beauty is there. Things like protected playing field

:26:18.:26:22.

and the value to countryside in its own right has an added. It shifts

:26:22.:26:26.

the burp, that is now on the planner d burden of proop, that is

:26:26.:26:32.

on the planner to find a good reason to -- the burden of proof,

:26:32.:26:38.

the onus is on the planner to find a good reason to say no. There was

:26:38.:26:40.

always a presumption in favour of development, the question was did

:26:40.:26:45.

it conform to the plan. The problem is planning was fragmented under

:26:45.:26:49.

the last Government, they dissolved most of planning. We have a

:26:49.:26:51.

situation where the new document says there has to be plan, get on

:26:51.:26:54.

with it and do it in the next year. That is a major requirement for

:26:54.:26:58.

everybody. Under the plan, which can be a pro-growth plan, there is

:26:58.:27:01.

no problem there, the normal conflicts you have, in any

:27:01.:27:04.

community, about the use of land, should be resolved in a certain way.

:27:04.:27:09.

In my view, in favour of urban renewal, rather than countryside

:27:09.:27:14.

building. It should be in favour of respecting the countryside, the

:27:14.:27:17.

intrinsic value of the countryside, and it should be sustainable, in a

:27:17.:27:21.

sense you are using existing infrastructure. All these things

:27:21.:27:23.

have been done now there will be a hellish amount of lawyers, there

:27:23.:27:28.

will be an awful lot of delay, it won't be much cheaper, but it is

:27:28.:27:31.

better than it used to be. proof of the pudding will be in the

:27:31.:27:35.

eating, or in the courts, or planning tribunals. Thank you very

:27:35.:27:38.

much. When do you reckon the Chancellor

:27:38.:27:42.

of the Exchequer, George Osborne, last had a pasty from the high

:27:42.:27:46.

street baker Greggs, we will find now the a moment. This unearth

:27:46.:27:53.

shattering revelation is of passing interest, because last year's

:27:53.:27:57.

budget slapped money on warm meat pies and common delicacies, the

:27:57.:28:00.

boss of Greggs went to the Treasury today to put them right, at the

:28:00.:28:03.

same time Mr Osborne was answering this killer question at a select

:28:03.:28:09.

committee hearing on the budget. When's the last time you bought a

:28:09.:28:15.

pastie in Greggs. Look, I can't remember the last time I bought a

:28:15.:28:22.

pastie in Greggs. That kind of sums it up. When was the last time?

:28:22.:28:30.

you are putting up the price of hot pasties in Greggs, if I buy a

:28:30.:28:36.

pastie from Greggs that is oaked hot, but by the time it gets in the

:28:36.:28:43.

paper bag and I take it away it is cold, will it be VATable or not?

:28:43.:28:51.

it is cold, when you buy it, it will not be. Ken McMeikan is the

:28:51.:28:54.

boss of Greggs, the bakery, is here, he spent the afternoon in the

:28:54.:28:57.

Treasury. What did you tell them was the reason why you shouldn't be

:28:57.:29:05.

subject to VAT on your pasties? We're very clear, freshly baked

:29:05.:29:09.

bakery food has not been subject to VAT. We currently pay VAT on hot

:29:09.:29:14.

food, but bakery food, freshly baked in our shops, it is cooled

:29:15.:29:21.

down and not kept hot, we don't believe, should be subject to VAT,

:29:21.:29:29.

and was previously he can empted it from it -- he can cemented from it

:29:29.:29:33.

before. Are you saying there is something uniquely privileged about

:29:33.:29:36.

your pasties? We are saying the bakery industry will be

:29:36.:29:41.

significantly impacted by a product, we believe, best made fresh, in our

:29:41.:29:46.

shops, baked in an oven, and cooled down and served for our customer,

:29:46.:29:50.

this tax will put 20% on the price of save rees that were previously

:29:50.:29:54.

not subject to VAT and shouldn't be subject to VAT. If you buy a

:29:54.:29:58.

McDonalds, that is subject to VAT, isn't it? It is, and in the same

:29:58.:30:02.

way we have our hot sandwiches, which we keep hot. Your bacon rolls

:30:02.:30:07.

are subject to VAT? They are, correct. Absolutely right,

:30:07.:30:13.

McDonalds will keep their's hot and serve their product hot. We on our

:30:13.:30:18.

savourys offer our customers a freshly-baked savoury that is not

:30:18.:30:22.

guaranteed hot. What is so special about a sausage roll or pastie?

:30:22.:30:26.

point about it is, the best way as a quality baker is to make them

:30:26.:30:31.

fresh and cool them down and serve them to customers. That guarantees

:30:31.:30:35.

for the customer the best and freshest project. We can only do

:30:35.:30:39.

that by making the product in the shop and allowing it to cool down.

:30:39.:30:44.

We don't keep it heated to serve it as a hot product, we can't

:30:44.:30:49.

guarantee if it is hot. The subject around whether a customer should

:30:49.:30:52.

pay VAT on it or not is irrelevant, they shouldn't. It is not designed

:30:52.:30:56.

as a hot product. Do you think the Chancellor really understands the

:30:56.:31:02.

Cornish pastie problem? No, I think they have, to a degree, lost touch

:31:02.:31:09.

with the issue here. That for ordinary, hard working families,

:31:10.:31:15.

putting 20% on a product that is freshly baked, will make a severe

:31:15.:31:22.

dent in their pockets, at a time when they can ill-afford it. Not

:31:22.:31:25.

only should this not have happened, the former Chancellor of the

:31:25.:31:29.

Exchequer, Lawson, wrote to the Treasury back in 1984, said it

:31:29.:31:33.

shouldn't be subject to VAT for freshly baked product. The other

:31:33.:31:37.

issue you have here, which the Government haven't understood, they

:31:37.:31:40.

are talking about trying to simplify something, they will make

:31:40.:31:44.

huge complexties in the definition of what is ambient air temperature,

:31:45.:31:50.

and are we expected now to almost temperature probe every single

:31:50.:31:54.

product we sell. Clearly not, you have to make an estimate of how

:31:54.:31:57.

many are hot and cold. The political point is why Nigel Lawson

:31:57.:32:01.

had this instinctive understanding of the ordinary person's liking for

:32:01.:32:08.

a meat pie or something, and George Osborne doesn't? Well, clearly, we

:32:08.:32:12.

know that Nigel Lawson had a very different view, George Osborne, I

:32:12.:32:16.

think, would benefit from coming and spending time with us and our

:32:16.:32:19.

customers and actually seeing, operationally, why we believe, as

:32:20.:32:23.

bakers, making a freshly baked product is different from trying to

:32:23.:32:27.

sell a hot product, which we already pay VAT on. Do you think

:32:27.:32:32.

the Treasury will change their minds on it? I hope for the bake of

:32:33.:32:36.

the baking industry they do. you did they give you any

:32:36.:32:40.

indication they would change their minds? We gave them plenty to think

:32:40.:32:44.

about today. I have reassured them that I will categorically campaign

:32:44.:32:48.

on behalf of the UK consumer and the bakery industry, I feel there

:32:48.:32:51.

will be job losses and closure of businesses as a result of it.

:32:51.:32:58.

on, you made �60 million profit last year? We made �53.1 million,

:32:58.:33:03.

we are the largest bakery in the UK, with a great reputation for value.

:33:03.:33:09.

We deliver profits because of great tasting, freshly baked products and

:33:09.:33:13.

we do it well. We try to keep the price of food down low for cows

:33:13.:33:17.

tomorrow mers. If you were watching this time last night, you will have

:33:17.:33:24.

seen the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, jauntly slugging off the

:33:24.:33:28.

name-calling that has haunted her country for decades. There are

:33:28.:33:33.

still Nazi in Germany, the question for many is how many, the security

:33:33.:33:39.

sources are scrambling to track down and arrest far right fugutives,

:33:39.:33:45.

after discovering a neo-Nazi cell murdered nine people over as many

:33:45.:33:55.
:33:55.:33:57.

years. This report contains strong, racial low offensive language. --

:33:57.:34:07.
:34:07.:34:08.

The number of armed and violent neo-Nazis is on the rise. The far

:34:08.:34:12.

right movement is diversifying, attracting growing numbers of

:34:12.:34:17.

students and middle-class professionals.

:34:17.:34:20.

Revelations of mass murder and hate crimes forced the German

:34:20.:34:28.

authorities to admit they have done too little for too long.

:34:28.:34:32.

Is Germany's Nazi past preventing it from fighting right-wing

:34:32.:34:41.

extremism now? Last November, among the wreckage

:34:41.:34:45.

of this burnt out flat, police uncovered one of the biggest

:34:45.:34:53.

scandals of Germany's post-war history. The home had been to these

:34:53.:34:57.

three known neo-Nazi activists, on the run for years. Remaining at

:34:57.:35:00.

large, despite carrying out, by their own admission, at least nine

:35:00.:35:07.

murders and a number of bombings. This woman turned herself into the

:35:07.:35:11.

police, her acomplises were found dead in a van, in an apparent

:35:11.:35:15.

double suicide. Police found a version of monopoly

:35:15.:35:19.

that the woman had been selling. Germany's Intelligence Service

:35:20.:35:23.

showed Newsnight the name. Concentration camps are the most

:35:23.:35:33.

desirable properties on the board. This is what shocked the German

:35:33.:35:37.

public most, the trio left this home made DVD, rather bizarrely

:35:37.:35:45.

using the Pink Pan they are cartoon character, to publicise that they

:35:46.:35:49.

had been a killing spree of racially motivated murders

:35:50.:35:52.

nationwide. The trio said they acted to serve the German people

:35:52.:35:59.

and their country. They sign off as a National

:35:59.:36:04.

Socialist Underground, or NSU, echoing the National Associationism

:36:04.:36:07.

of Hitler's Germany. Police say they had no idea.

:36:07.:36:14.

They blamed those murders on the Turkish Mafia.

:36:14.:36:18.

Newsnight has seen a secret internal report, revealing serious

:36:18.:36:20.

blunders by law enforcement agencies.

:36:20.:36:24.

They had the group under close surveillance for years, but never

:36:24.:36:27.

took decisive action, allowing them to go into hiding, and remain

:36:27.:36:31.

underground. Why weren't they stopped before

:36:31.:36:41.
:36:41.:36:43.

they began to kill? In this moment, in my eyes, it was

:36:43.:36:53.
:36:53.:37:02.

necessary to arrest those people, at once. In my eyes. Why not?

:37:02.:37:07.

can't explain it, I can't explain it. We thought we had two or three

:37:07.:37:10.

times, it was not possible to arrest them. I can't explain it,

:37:10.:37:16.

don't ask me. We did keep asking him, but he had

:37:16.:37:22.

no answers for us. Allegations have been made in Germany, not just of

:37:22.:37:25.

incompetence, but right-wing sympathies inside the country's

:37:25.:37:29.

Secret Services and police force. Something the institutions

:37:29.:37:37.

vehemently deny. Here in Germany it is impossible to discuss far right,

:37:37.:37:40.

even nationalist activity in isolation, outside the context of

:37:40.:37:46.

this country's Nazi past. Germany's post-war constitution was very much

:37:46.:37:51.

written in the vein of "never again", the story of the

:37:51.:37:54.

nationalist socialist underground throws up disturbing questions.

:37:54.:37:59.

Just how is it that a militant group of Neo-Nazis was allowed to

:37:59.:38:04.

flourish, and just how popular and how powerful are the far right, and

:38:04.:38:06.

nationalist extremists in Germany today?

:38:06.:38:09.

Human rights groups say more than 180 people have been killed in

:38:09.:38:14.

right-wing attacks in Germany over the last 20 years.

:38:14.:38:19.

Neo-Nazis have murdered more people in post-war Germany, than any other

:38:19.:38:23.

single group, including Islamists and the far left. This is not

:38:23.:38:27.

reflected in official data. The German Government admits mistakes

:38:27.:38:32.

have been made. Martin is a former Neo-Nazi leader, he has now left

:38:32.:38:35.

the movement and asked us to hide his identity.

:38:35.:38:40.

He says the Neo-Nazi trio's murderous exploits should have come

:38:40.:38:45.

as no surprise. TRANSLATION: militant scene has always said we

:38:45.:38:48.

need people who are willing and able and trained, in case it comes

:38:48.:38:54.

to civil war. The scene is armed, it is military. This does lead to

:38:54.:38:58.

people being killed. Weapons training is carried out in secret,

:38:58.:39:03.

in the Arab world, for instance, with freedom movements there. The

:39:03.:39:07.

right-wing scene sees itself as a freedom movement.

:39:07.:39:13.

Martin was mart part of a growing movement of -- part of a growing

:39:13.:39:15.

movement of secret jif far right groups in Germany, known as the

:39:15.:39:20.

Free Forces. No longer rooted in the past, these groups tend not to

:39:20.:39:24.

call themselves Nazi, or Neo-Nazi, but rather the Free Forces. They

:39:24.:39:29.

are attracting a new crowd, students, middle-classes and

:39:29.:39:32.

intellectuals. They are harnessing social media, and using new modern

:39:32.:39:36.

forms and reasons for protest. When it comes to them one intelligence

:39:36.:39:39.

agent told me that the Security Services here in Germany really are

:39:39.:39:49.
:39:49.:40:01.

This group, The Immortals, is part of the new crowd. Anti-

:40:01.:40:05.

globalisation, anti-capitalist, and anti-democratic, they warn of the

:40:05.:40:15.
:40:15.:40:16.

impending extinction of the German Hard for the authorities to catch,

:40:16.:40:20.

they use text messaging to organise spontaneous demos across the

:40:20.:40:24.

country, like this one, in their propaganda video. After 15 minutes

:40:24.:40:32.

on the street, they have gone. TRANSLATION: The leadership is

:40:32.:40:37.

always trying to attract members of the called "upper-classs" students

:40:37.:40:40.

who one day can act as lawyers or doctors for the scene, really do

:40:40.:40:43.

something to help the movement. You would never imagine those sorts of

:40:43.:40:47.

people supported the far right, and they may deny their affiliation in

:40:47.:40:51.

public, but they are very much part of the movement. More so now than

:40:51.:41:01.
:41:01.:41:05.

ever before. What exactly do they want, far right supporters are

:41:05.:41:14.

camera shy, they say they are looked for by police. We went to

:41:14.:41:21.

the most famous Neo-Nazi pub to see if anyone would be tempted to talk.

:41:21.:41:28.

After a few cocktails, the former head of a banned Neo-Nazi group sat

:41:28.:41:33.

down with us. TRANSLATION: Who are we? We are nationalists, we care

:41:33.:41:37.

deeply about the fatherland, we don't like the state that exists

:41:37.:41:41.

here now, we want to rebuild the country, for our brothers and

:41:41.:41:45.

sisters, the German people. We want to protect our culture, country and

:41:45.:41:52.

religion. In Britain you too are proud of your country. Here in

:41:52.:41:57.

Germany I am a second class citizen, we live with war guilt here in

:41:57.:42:01.

Germany. Others get preferential treatment, outsiders. Those who say

:42:02.:42:07.

this pub is full of Nazis, how do they know, they try to ban us.

:42:07.:42:13.

British owner of the pub asked us to hide his identity to protect his

:42:13.:42:18.

family. He was amongst many that who complained about strict German

:42:18.:42:22.

laws used to persecute the far right? If the German Government

:42:22.:42:25.

make laws that you can't express your freedom of speech, there will

:42:26.:42:30.

be an uprising, it will happen. Just because it will be forbidden.

:42:30.:42:36.

It will happen. If they let these laws go, then people will be a lot

:42:36.:42:39.

more freer, they will say what they think, there will be more

:42:39.:42:45.

discussion. They won't have as many political problems as they do today.

:42:45.:42:51.

What many law makers say they don't like, is that the far right rejects

:42:51.:42:56.

the German federal Republic, the nationalists want a new order in

:42:56.:43:03.

Germany, non-democratic, non- multicultural.

:43:03.:43:07.

In the meantime, some are establishing what they call

:43:07.:43:10.

national liberated zones, dotted across the country.

:43:11.:43:17.

We are on our way to Jamel, it is the only village that really has

:43:17.:43:21.

been completely taken over by Neo- Nazis in Germany to date. They have

:43:21.:43:24.

all the houses now except for one. They have pretty much forced out

:43:24.:43:32.

all the other villagers. In the middle of the village is

:43:32.:43:37.

this Nazi Germany-styled mural, proclaiming the area is free,

:43:37.:43:41.

social and national. The German authorities recently forced the

:43:41.:43:46.

villagers to take down a sign post pointing towards Hitler's birth

:43:46.:43:50.

place. People here weren't particularly pleased to see us, or

:43:50.:43:54.

talk to us. Prior to coming here I tried to organise an interview with

:43:54.:43:59.

the leading family of the village. They weren't keen on our camera.

:43:59.:44:05.

You find liberated zones in German towns and cities too. There have

:44:05.:44:08.

been cases of riots, arson and murder, in the far right efforts to

:44:08.:44:12.

cleanse those areas, a couple of streets, or a sprawling housing

:44:12.:44:17.

estate, getting rid of all those they regard as political enemies,

:44:17.:44:24.

immigrants, ethnic minorities, liberals or left-wingers. Far right

:44:24.:44:27.

groups also run summer camps for children and families like this one

:44:27.:44:30.

in north Germany, filmed a few years ago. This youth organisation

:44:30.:44:36.

was later banned. The German Interior Ministry said

:44:36.:44:41.

it was indoctrinating children in Nazi ideology, as well as giving

:44:41.:44:45.

them military training. But the courtship of youngsters continues.

:44:45.:44:48.

The nationalists run youth clubs and sports clubs. They are playing

:44:48.:44:53.

the social card in the current economic Croy sis, offering welfare

:44:53.:44:59.

advice, and family assist -- crisis, offering welfare advice and family

:44:59.:45:03.

assistance, hoping to attract new supporters. The NPD is the legal

:45:03.:45:06.

political will of the far right, it has elected representatives in two

:45:06.:45:12.

out of Germany's 16 state parliaments.

:45:12.:45:17.

Udo Pastoerss is the deputy leader of the MPD nationwide, and its

:45:17.:45:26.

leader, in the regional parliament. TRANSLATION: German children need

:45:26.:45:31.

the land. We want to keep the German people alive, with our own

:45:32.:45:36.

biological vitality. So that tomorrow, and the day after,

:45:36.:45:41.

Germany still earns the name Germany, because imagine a country

:45:41.:45:46.

called Germany, that is filled only with Africans, with us importing

:45:46.:45:56.
:45:56.:45:56.

nice little sweet ligger children. The German Government says it is

:45:56.:46:01.

looking to ban the N PD, because of the party's association with

:46:01.:46:08.

extremists, its alleged links with the Neo-Nazi killer trio, and the

:46:08.:46:13.

questioning of the Holocaust. I asked Udo Pastoerss what he thought

:46:13.:46:22.

of Hitler? TRANSLATION: Look here, if one speaks about a historical

:46:22.:46:29.

figure, it is impossible to do so during a short interview. REPORTER:

:46:29.:46:32.

I could asking many people what they thought about Hitler and they

:46:32.:46:38.

would answer in a few short words? TRANSLATION: Those are emotions,

:46:38.:46:43.

not facts. REPORTER: But you are totally avoiding my question, what

:46:44.:46:50.

do you think of Hitler and what of the six million Jews? TRANSLATION:

:46:50.:46:54.

Let me point out to you that in Germany you are punishable by law

:46:54.:46:59.

if you don't accept the authorities' version of what

:46:59.:47:03.

happened at Auschwitz, I ask for your understanding, I do not wish

:47:03.:47:13.

to talk about these issues, I do not live in a free country.

:47:13.:47:17.

German nationalists say they represent the German people. Most

:47:17.:47:21.

Germans insist they certainly do not.

:47:21.:47:26.

But statistics indicate the eurocrisis, and wider economic woes,

:47:26.:47:32.

means increasing numbers are sympathetic to the anti-immigrant,

:47:32.:47:39.

"Germans-first" message, espoused by the right.

:47:39.:47:44.

This was the state memorial service, last month, for the victims of the

:47:44.:47:49.

National Socialist Underground. Just a few days before, more than

:47:49.:47:53.

2,000 Neo-Nazis marched in Dresden. At the memorial there was a

:47:53.:47:57.

profound sense of remorse. With political promises to crackdown on

:47:57.:48:01.

the far right. But as the story fades from the national headlines,

:48:01.:48:06.

human rights groups say they are concerned the Neo-Nazi issue will

:48:06.:48:11.

be neglected again. It is a minority movement, but Germany's

:48:11.:48:15.

nationalists, and the called Free Forces, are a force that needs to

:48:15.:48:25.

be dealt with. The question is how? Tomorrow night we will discuss what

:48:25.:48:28.

impact Germany's recent past has had on its ability to take a

:48:28.:48:32.

leading role in Europe. That's it, the fat lady has sung, the well is

:48:32.:48:36.

dry, the washing machine of news has reached its final spin cycle,

:48:36.:48:46.
:48:46.:49:11.

Hello, more warm sunshine to come on Wednesday. But first thing it is

:49:11.:49:14.

going to be a bit chilly, temperatures are falling away

:49:14.:49:20.

sharply, one or two mist and fog patches, they will clear, then

:49:20.:49:23.

sunshine. Northern Scotland it will be clear. The sunshine will lift

:49:23.:49:26.

the temperatures in England. Starting below freezing in rural

:49:26.:49:32.

areas, by the afternoon above 20 degrees, 23 in some parts of

:49:32.:49:36.

eastern England. Further west 21 likely to be the top temperature. A

:49:36.:49:41.

little cooler around the coast, a beautiful spring day. Lots of

:49:41.:49:44.

sunshine around south-west England, sunny skies across much of Wales

:49:44.:49:48.

and North West England, it is a similar picture in Northern Ireland.

:49:48.:49:55.

Chilly by the afternoon, 19 in Belfast, and in May it may exceed

:49:55.:49:59.

the local records. A warm, sunny day across most of Scotland, cloud

:49:59.:50:04.

across the far north, a spot or two of rain here. Increasing amounts of

:50:04.:50:08.

cloud for the rest of the week, that will have an impact on the

:50:08.:50:12.

temperatures, still well above average.

:50:12.:50:16.

Still we could reach 20 degrees or more in parts of the thought.

:50:16.:50:19.

Plenty of sunshine after a chilly start. Again it may be just a bit

:50:19.:50:23.

of mist and fog on Thursday morning. Increasing cloud over Scotland,

:50:23.:50:27.

The report into the Summer riots gets leaked. Should we build on the green belt? In search of Germany's new generation of the far right. With Jeremy Paxman.


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