28/03/2012 Newsnight

Want your car's fuel tank topped up, brought in some emergency supplies?

We have, it is not what you expect to be told by a Government that

says there is no need to panic. How likely are fuel tanker drivers to

strike, and what is the sensible citizen to do? The greater the

extent to which people have fuel in their vehicles, with maybe a little

bit in the garage as well, in ag erry can, the longer we will be

able to keep things go. Have the transport minister and Labour's

Treasury spokesman filled up today. Discover the Ed Balls diet.

there, can we get eight sausage rolls, please? An entirely

spontaneous by Labour Party big wigs, to the pie shop. What does

pastygate tell us about the state of British politics. And this is

what the European authorities think work ought to look like, even some

Lib Dem ministers say the latest orders about working hours are

barmy. Germany marches to a different beat

these days, how does the most powerful nation in Europe feel

about the role of leader? Especially in light of its troubled

modern history. If I talk to my own father, he says we really have to

protect with, you know it is our responsibility, the European idea.

But if I speak to my younger cousin, she's 20, she's like, let them go,

it is too much money. Faced with what might turn out to

be a national emergency, Governments usually try to pour oil

on troubled waters. Don't panic, is the general advice, yet today,

couldn't fronted with a possible strike by oil tanker drivers, that

hasn't even been called yet, ministers seemed to say rather the

reverse, and by advising people to keep petrol ing erry cans in

garages, they brought down the wrath of the health and safety

business. I have family at home, two children

I never see because I'm away from home Monday to Friday. Only home at

weekends. I have a 16-year-old daughter, so I have not really seen

her growing up. I have always been on the road. Working.

David McCamon is a licensed oil tanker driver, his job is to

collect polluted run-off from garage forecourts, and take it away

for safe disposal. From his cab he has a clear view of an industry,

which he says, has changed for the worse.

It is hard to put a finger on it, really. Standards are slipping,

because everybody is out to make money. The quicker things get done,

the more money people are making. With things like that, it is more

safety than anything else, it should be adhered to. You think

drivers should be treated differently? Yes, treated better,

any way. Because it is the bottom of the

pile, that is the ones delivering all the fuel.

The dispute is not about pay, according to Unite, whose members

supply fuel to 90% of the UK's forecourts, 2,000 of them voted to

demand improved conditions, by highlighting poor training as an

issue, they are turning the focus on to safety, which, like the

supply of fuel, affects everyone. The drivers say it is all about

standards and safety and the way a growing number of them are being

employed is putting that at risk. They say it matters, not least

because as one of them put it to me, they are driving around in the

equivalent of a great big bomb. They are not alone in using

language that adds to a sense of looming crisis.

The Cabinet Office Minister's advice was to store fuel at home in

your garage. If you have got one, otherwise, presumptionably, get on

your bike. -- presumably, get on your bike.

This Government wants to avoid the travailing of Tony Blair's, when

blockades saw panic buying and disruption around the country. As

part of contingency plans agreed by ministers this afternoon, military

drivers are to be trained to keep supplies running. David Cameron

again told motorists to top up, but in an orderly fashion. There is no

need to queue to buy petrol. Of course people should take sensible

precautions, if there is an opportunity to top up your tank, if

a strike is potentially on the way, it is a sensible thing if you are

able to do that. If a strike goes ahead, there will

be seven days notice. But, on the forecourts, demand has been going

Figures suggest 45% more unleaded has been sold than usual, while

sales of diesel are up by 20%. It is not a comfortable time for

Labour, either. As its leader refused to condemn strike action,

called for afterall by Unite, his party's most generous donor.

don't want to see industrial action, it must be avoided at all costs,

the best way to make that happen is for the Government to tell both

sides to instruct them, to say you have to negotiate. That is what's

in the interests of the people of Britain, and that's what has to

happen. ACAS will now try to mediate

between the union and the seven haulage companies involved in the

dispute. Unite says the outsourcing of fuel distribution to smaller

companies has casualised the labour force, they are calling for

nationally agreed standards, pointing to a study which shows

Britain is falling behind. I think inevitably when there is quite big

changes in contract relations, and an awful lot of sub-contracting,

and complexties in that regard, then that produces safety in health

and safety risks and dangers to training. So have members of unite

got it right, then, they say the public are at risk? Well, certainly.

Particularly in terms of health and safety standards, but I should also

add that training in the industry any way could be much improved. It

relies an awful lot on long-term experience of the drivers

themselves. The training is very much poorer than that in other

European countries, particularly countries like Germany. Talks will

begin to keep Britain driving over the Easter break and beyond.

Whatever happens, the Government must prepare for the worst. And

despite being told not to panic, the concern is that motorists might

do the same. Upsetting supply as effectively as any strike.

Labour's Treasury spokesman, Chris Leslie is here. First let's talk to

the minister for roads, Mike Penning. First off, are people

supposed to have petrol in cans in garages they may or may not have?

No, because you can't store that amount of petrol or diesel. It was

a mistake the minister, he didn't understand the size of the can. We

are trying to get a common sense approach, if the strike goes ahead

we will have shortages, let as make sure people understand that. Right

now there isn't a strike? No there isn't, but the strike is likely to

happen. It is common sense that if there is likely to be a strike,

don't queue in the garage, but if you are passing the garage and you

are on a quarter of a tank, top up because there is not a strike now.

We will have seven days notice? Seven days is not enough to make

sure we have the facilities and amount of fuel we needing to

forward. It is a simple common sense approach. If the tarpbger

drivers are working now and we can fill tanks up in cars now, that is

a sensible way to go forward. Let's hope there isn't a strike. Why did

Francis Maude say what he said? was all fine but not about the

Gerry can. Did you know about it? Did you know what it was. Five

gallons in old money? He was saying don't panic, don't queue, be

prepared. The problem is you have created the panic, 45% increase in

petrol sales last night apparently. Where is the panic. I have been to

five petrol stations, including the one right outside the studios, one

person was filling up there, where is the panic. Have petrol sales

gone up 45%? Because we have asked people to take the common sense

approach, if you haven't a full tank top up. If the strike goes

ahead, use your fuel. If it does there won't be such a demand. One

car filled up outside the studios, I sat there for 15 minutes.

sample? I went to five. And all functioning? Absolutely. And they

were refuelled straight afterwards, during the night mostly. That is

the point we are making, they can be refuelled now because the tanker

drivers are not on strike. Key to this is no-strike. If they strike

the country will have a problem. Let's be prepared, in case it

happens. Shortage where it occurs is a consequence of the advice

given by your Government? shortage will be if tanker drivers

go on strike over pay, because suddenly this health and safety

thing has suddenly come up in the last few days. They are not

striking about pay? They balloted to strike about pay and conditions.

They balloted to strike possibly about a multiplicity of things,

some of which are opaque and some of which are not? Unite have not

been banging on my daughter door to talk about the -- door to talk

about the health and safety concerns they have. I have spoken

to them in the last month. You have had no expression of concerns about

safety? No, and I'm responsible for the tanker drivers' safety. In the

whole time you have been in office? They have been there on other

issues, but not this. The Labour Treasury spokesman is

here. Do you support Unite in this

campaign? Obviously there is a grievance between the employees and

the employers, and they have been trying to discuss it with each

other. I don't think we were in the situation of imminent strike, but

obviously it is a serious sensitive set of negotiations. My anxiety is

that we avoid a strike, I don't want us to get into stoking it up.

Do you support them in their anxiety? I think they have

obviously got concerns for health and safety reasons. But I'm not.

you support them? It is not a Labour Party issue, this is an

issue between employees and employers, in a particular sector.

Do you think they should call off the strike threat? I think there is

obviously the specter of that. I think the key thing is...You

stating the blindingly obvious, I'm asking you what you think, do you

think they should call off the strike? I think they should get

around the table, set a date for ACAS, and solve it rationally. We

don't need ministers stoking up the particular issue, as they did this

morning. Stop changing the subject, I'm interested in what your party

thinks about a strike threatened by people who basically pay for your

party's existence? I don't think this is about party political

funding. I think this is about whether there is a dispute that

will escalate. Of every �10 the Labour Party receives, �4.20 comes

from Unite. You don't think it has anything to do with it? Today is a

crisis caused because ministers were telling people to fill theirg

errycans, I think it was a serious error, with the greatest of respect

to Mike, it should have been Francis Maude here this evening

explaining publicly why he made that error. Apparent low he's now

said that it was a mistake. I haven't heard him say that. I'm not

sure if the public have as well. Naturally they heard a minister

telling them fill yourg errycan and they went dout and did that. And

there is all sorts -- a cans, and they went out and did that. There

is a strike imminent in the process. We need to avoid a strike so get

them all around the table. don't think the strike threat

should be called off? Of course I. Do it is for both sides of the

parties to get it done. Are you aware of the safety concerns the

tanker drivers have? This is not something we have been discussing,

it is a dispute between a set of employees and employers, they have

a disagreement, they need to sort it out. There might be a set of

issues, they are driving around �40,000 worth of fuel in tanker.

There could be serious risks, I want them to sort it out. We don't

want a strike that will cause harm to the economy or the wider public.

The minister himself tonight has not been on the airwaves saying why

he made the mistake and the bungle he did, this is a serious situation

caused by his own mistakes, he should have been on here

apologising for that. Meanwhile, pastygate continues to

take its toll, last night the CEO of Greggs, the bakers, was here

accusing George Osborne of being out-of-touch, because of his

decision to levy VAT on things like pies and sausage rolls. The row

dragged on to the Prime Minister today. He claimed to love Cornish

pasties, and claimed to eat one several months ago. The national

afederation of fish friars, who pay VAT, stuck in and supported the

Prime Minister. Ed Milliband and his top team stunted up a visit to

grex, and there is growing disquiet in the Conservative Party is it

makes them look like people at sea when asked to eat something other

than game pie and oysters. I love pasties, I bought one in Leeds

station at the time. Since then there has been some

confusion over the Prime Minister's comments. We asked BBC's Look North,

to investigate. It turns out that well known man of

the people, our Prime Minister, likes a Cornish pastie, he says the

last one he had, he got here in Leeds Station, from the West

Cornwall Pastie Station, there is a problem with the story, there

hasn't been a shop here for five years. Do you know where we could

buy a Cornish pastie? Greggs. there one in the station? I don't

eat them. Do you know where you can get a Cornish pastie from? There

should be one here. We are trying to find out where to get a Cornish

pasty in the -- pastie in the station? I do believe it is closed

down now in the station. With us to help delve into the

political meaning of a hot or cold pastie is Labour's John Mann, and

the Conservative, Nadhim Zahawi. Can you help us any further on the

precise location of the Prime Minister's last pastie purchase?

Jeremy, as busy as the Prime Minister is, being whisked around

the country. You will forget which platform. Do you think he paid for

it? I don't know. I can remember the last time I bought a pasty, it

was in Cornwall, last summer, I last went into a grexr Greggs last

Saturday? Good for you for rembering t I bet you are not as

busy as the Prime Minister. It is perfectly understandable he

doesn't know where he bought the last one, I suggest he was making

it up? I don't think he was making it up. If you are as busy as he is,

being whisked around the country, you have a pasty, you wouldn't

remember which station you have it in, at the time of the day.

Somewhere up north, they are all the same aren't they? That is not

true. At the end of the day, I have to tell you, my local fish and chip

shop is pleased that there will be a level playing field. They have to

pay VAT on their product, why shouldn't Greggs pay VAT on a hot

product. What is the deeper significance of pastygate? I think

the big significance is that it was predictable. I knew what the

reaction would be before I asked the question. I'm amazed. You are

the famous person who asked George Osborne when he last had a Greggs

pasty, that was yesterday? suspected he wouldn't know, because

he hadn't done. Why does it matter? Why it matters is not whether

George Osborne eats Greggs pasties or not, but it shows how out-of-

touch the top of the Conservative Party is in not realised how

vulnerable they would be on this issue. And not least because, of

course, they don't have a coherent policy. You can't put VAT on

pasties in this way. You support VAT on bacon butties, though, don't

you? I support common sense. The reason, seven Chancellors haven't

done this. From a common sense point of view, can you tell me why

you support VAT on chicken wings, hamburgers, bacon butties, but not

on Cornish pasties? Because with pasties and other pasties, cold

foods aren't VATable. Hot foods are, but pasties, when heated cool down.

That is the problem. That is why there hasn't been VAT on them in

the past. Because what is the temperature, in what conditions. It

can't be done. That is what's been proven in the past. That is why it

is extraordinary it has been done this time. You think what this is

really about, is class, don't you? It is that they don't get it, how

the majority of the British people live. I think that's a fundamental

weakness. They don't seem to realise that they don't get it.

Which is an even bigger weakness. You see, when you look at this, you

put it in the context of the Prime Minister that goes out riding

horses with Charley Brooks and his wife, and has dinner for people for

�250,000 in his little flat in Downing Street, it looks terrible?

What John would love it to be is a class war thing. It isn't a class

war thing. I can tell you why. My local franchisee of Subway, when he

toasts a sandwich he has to pay VAT on it, because it is above ambient

temperature. They have made the argument to HMRC and lost them in

the courts. The idea here is that we try to close some of these

loopholes, because actually it makes a difference, at the time of

the day, so we have a fair playing field. Greggs, the CEO yesterday,

they are a big company, they can afford to come on your show and

have big lobbyists working for them. The little chippy in Stratford, or

the franchisee of a Subway, doesn't have the same ability. The idea

that we are doing this because of class is nonsense. Don't you read

the papers, this is on front page after front page after front page?

Because it suits the agenda. What is the agenda? Horses, �250,000

dinners, these must be a bunch of toffs, it is not true. It is about

the small businessman having a level playing field with the big

guy, the supermarkets having to charge no VAT on a hot chicken

versus the chippy in my constituency who has to charge VAT.

That is the agenda. It is about fairness, not about class warfare.

John would love it to be about that, but the millionaire Ed Milliband

walked into Greggs for a photo shoot. Just before today when was

Ed Milliband last in a Greggs? haven't a clue. Do you think he has

ever been in one? What is significant is having this

reputation already for being a bunch of outof touch -- out-off-

touch toffs, they reinforce it by picking on Greggs, pasties and

caravans. That is really significant, the people who are the

biggest users of Greggs, are the very people whose standard of

living is going down at the moment, who are suffering. This idea we are

all in it together, picking on them at this time, is particularly

stupid politically. That is the big significance. That the

miscalculations, it was so predictable this was going to end

up like it did. When you put it in the context of these remarks about

people. Francis Maude didn't advise people to go and get their

chauffeurs to fill up their ka, when he talks about g errycans in

people's garage, and thinking that people know what the can is, and

has a garage, it shows they are out-of-touch? He made a mistake,

and I don't disagree that one should go careful in the language

one uses about these things, actually it is unfair to start

painting it as being a class war. I know where John wants to go with

this, because he's comfortable with it. His problem is the millionaire

Ed Milliband is the exact opposite of who John is trying to paint. The

photo shoot will be seen through as opportunism of the worst kinds. To

stand in front of Greggs and do a photo shoot when you are a multi-

millionaire from London. Multi- millionaires are allowed to go to

Greggs? The opportunism of it, getting on the bandwagon and doing

it for the day because you had the CEO of Greggs here. I lout we all

loved a pasty, it seems one or two don't. That is the Government's

real problem. They need to get real, it is to our political advantage

they are not. That is why the moment is significant. They are not

getting at this stage, Ed Milliband is getting some real confidence out

of this. Some of the European Union's rules

about when and how people should be expected to work for a living are

barmy. It is not a headline from the Sun or Telegraph, but the

considered judgment of the Employment Minister, Norman Lamb,

interestingly, Mr Lamb is a Liberal Democrat, this is not the usual

adjective you hear from the Liberal Democrats about the European Union.

It has no bigger fans in British politics, than people like Nick

Clegg. But the bigger question is whether Britain can resist this

barmyness. Our political editor reports. At the Lib Dem HQ they are

a hard working lot, tapping away. They very much want to keep things

that way. But on a Wednesday afternoon in March, we would all

rather be doing this. This would be enjoying the weather, bureaucrats

on the continent want to make sure we don't miss any leisure, even if

it costs business more. Shooting the breeze and relaxing must be

safeguarded too. So they are proposing a series of rulings they

want imposed on minutes tes in October. Employees that fall --

ministers in October. Employees who fall ill on annual lead, can claim

additional leave to make up for it. Annual leave on maternity leave

should go on to the next year's leave. The EU Directive is time

spent on call is working time, even if someone is asleep, all of this

costs money. One Lib Dem minister is not happy about it. In a letter

obtained by Newsnight, the Employment Minister Norman Lam

The hard working minister says he can't enact something he thinks is

barmy, this Government has talked like this before, and so far, not

done anything about it. This week it is about to change. Officials

have been tasked with drawing up a strategy, they have to go around

Europe and find other countries that think the way the UK

Government does. If none of this works, by September, well the

minister is serving notice that the UK will just ignore these diktats,

like Sweden did before us. This delights the Conservatives. It is

great Norman Lamb, the Lib Dem minister, is pushing for reform in

Europe. He's really doing exactly what David Cameron wants and what

Tony Blair before him wants, which is liberalisation and reform in

Europe, and making sure we don't get yet more regulation and

restriction. Regulation to some, but cherished rights to others.

Government are making a mountain out of a mole hill, the fact is,

the Working Time Directive gives minimum rights of workers to some

paid holiday, to rest breaks and not excessive hours each week. It

has given millions of workers in Britain four weeks paid holiday

entitlement, many didn't have that before. So I think it is a good

thing, and people should celebrate it. But this extra step by the

European Court, if you are sick and you are on holiday, that you are

entitled to extra holiday, I can see some employers will think that

will be a problem. It is not a problem if they manage is right.

The Prime Minister managed a bit of recreation today in the garden at

Number Ten, but despite the jolly japes, his Government say they mean

business in flouting these new directives, even if, in the words

of the ministers letter, risks infractions. Many other countries

get away with ignoring these rulings, but is there anything to

be done about it? They could fight it, the question is whether they

want to expend political capital fighting over an issue that has

limited impact on the UK. If they expend political capital on this,

they will have less available to use when it comes to an issue that

does have a significant impact on the UK. Although the German leader,

Chancellor Merkel, promised a koind of quid pro quo to the UK, if they

withdrew their objectives, she would address some Conservatives

concerns. There is nothing the Germans can do, they are not

pushing for an extension on the Working Time Directive, that is

coming from the commission and other states. It is not within the

German agenda to do this. Liberal Democrats are the most pro-

European of the parties. Now they are deciding Europe is becoming too

creative for making law which it has no mandates. Now with the Lib

Dems joining forces with the euro- sceptics, Britain has decided to

lead the rebellion against European law. Called barmy ideas in

definitely barmy weather, and a new push to do something about them.

But it is a new push that may keep many a minister and their civil

servant desk bound for quite some months.

Norman Lamb is in our Norwich studio now, are you willing to risk

prosecution, if necessary, Norman Lamb? This is a strategy we need to

win allies, the fact is, Europe is changing. There are many countries

out there that take a similar view to the UK, that we need to be more

flexible, that we need to focus on growth, ensuring that the single

market works effectively. On the competitiveness council, where I

sit, we have a group of like-minded nations, which have a similar

agenda there. I want the same thing on the Employment Council. If we

can work together with other countries, arguing the case for

more flexibility, I absolutely support the case for basic

employment rights, I support the case, of course, for paid holiday.

The fact is, the European Court is extending these rights, there is no

democratic mandate to do it. you this is a very, very important

principle, clearly. I repeat the question, are you willing to risk

prosecution? I have made it clear that I think that we should resist.

Interestingly, according to the commission's own report, let me

just finish this point, according to the commission's own report.

With the greatest of respect, you haven't answered the question, I'm

asking are you willing to risk prosecution? What I'm saying is the

UK should resist these implementing of court rulings, and argue the

case for a more flexible application of the Working Time

Directive. I understand that, but if it comes to prosecution you are

willing to take that risk are you? The risk is of infraction

proceedings, what has happened with a decision way back in 2003, over

how we treat on-call time. The decision then was if you are asleep

n a hospital, that counts as working time. There are about a

dozen countries that still, a decade on, haven't implemented that

ruling. Let's remain calm about this, and argue the case for why it

is absolutely in Europe's interests, and the interests of employment,

that we get greater flexibility here. Europe has to earn a living,

and we have to be able to compete with emerging economies in Asia and

south America, and we cannot simply keep adding burdens on business.

understand what you have said now and what you said in the letter,

but just to be clear about this, does your party leader support you

in this position? It is very interesting, actually, Nick was

mentioned in the report, but Nick has long argued the case against

ever more regulation. He wrote a familiar flet about it. He also

believes you shouldn't implement these regulations? I have kept his

office informed throughout all of this and talked to Vince as well.

Our view is we have to get real on the Working Time Directive. It is

part of the coalition agreement, there is a clear statement in there

that we should work to create more flexibility. He also thinks these

regulations are barmy does he? my word I have used. It is my task

as the Employment Minister to lead the case, in Europe, for greater

flexibility on the application of these regulations. If we don't get

that in Europe, then the risk is that Europe sinks. Europe faces the

greatest economic challenge, for decades, and if we don't start to

address the problem of ever growing burdens on business, then

employment suffers, and the most vulnerable suffer along the way. So

we have got to tackle this, and there are allies out there, in this

task. The German Chancellor told her

country's parliament today, that they absolutely had to get on with

ratfying new rules managing the budget. It is about setting an

example, hardly anyone in Germany disputes the country's leadership

role, since it has by a long shot the wealthiest economy in Europe.

But it is people like France and Europe have the seats on the

Security Council. It is hardly surprising since Germany wrecked

Europe twice in the past century, that Germany is tentative in world

affairs. The German military on the march in the heart of Berlin, just

as you would expect, with pru, precision. Germany has given birth

to a new country, Europe's most powerful democracy, 20 years after

unification. We were invited to look at the honour guard for Angela

Merkel meeting another Prime Minister, Tunisia. Given the

lessons in history, Germans are extremely cautious about their use

of power, and are uncomfortable with the idea of German leadership

in Europe. It is the "F" word. would always steer clear of a term

like "fuhre", if necessary, we would say "leadership", yes, in

English. You would rather say that than in German? We even have, you

see, I have a daughter who is a member of the Young Davos Group,

they are the young leaders, not the young fuhres. Because you can't say

that. As Germany showed throughout the

Arab Spring, they may be an economic giant, but desperate never

to be seen as a bully, Germany often plays the political Pigmy in

world affairs. As they think about their place in Europe, wherever you

go in this most modern country, the past is not really history, it is

never past. This is Berlin's poshest shopping area, this is one

of its poshest stores, KaDeWe, rather like Harrods, I suppose,

just behind me is Wittenbergplatz underground station, a charming

place from the 1920s being refurbished. So the side of it, so

commuters miss it, the places of horrors, listing concentration

camps and extermination camps. It says we are always to remember this.

The conductor and pianist, Daniel Barenboim, a Berlin resident for 20

years, says as a Jewish man he admired Germany for coming to terms

with the past, but wonders is it time to leave some of the guilt

behind. Having come to terms with the past with the Nazi period in

Germany, there comes with that almost a rejection of their own

cultural heritage, they don't want any more to hear about the German

way of playing, the German way of producing the sound. The famous

dark German string sound et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, they want to

internationalise themselves. Which I think is a pity, I think culture,

especially in the 1890s, and a larpblg chunk of the 20th century -

- large chunk of the 20th century, the different cultures in Europe,

have very nationalistic elements. Flux FM is a radio station run by a

pair of German entrepeneurs, they play a mix of music, but are keen

of the new and different. Everything is in flux.

In Germany wouldn't it be great to have a name or independent radio

network that actually has the name and is addressing this emerging new

group in Germany that feels very positive and optimistic about the

future. Germany is indeed in flux, Europe's

in flux, this radio station is proving a huge success to the flux

generation. There are frequent news bulletins, phone-ins, and

discussions about culture and politics, and today with Newsnight,

on whether Germany really can lead in Europe.

Hello, how are you? I'm totally fine, how are you. We have our next

listener, Hermen. How do you think Germany can lead in Europe? I don't

think we want to or have to lead politically on our own. I think it

can be a collaberative thing, working together with all European

nations. How do you feel about Germany

leading in Europe? I feel like Germany is being modest and trying

to not appear so strong internationally, and I really hope

that it stays that way. Ifrpblgt we have to make a quick break right

here. For a glimpse of how a new Germany

might be growing from the flux of the old, I went to Berlin's cinema

post product house, founded in 1911, one of the oldest in the world. In

cutting rooms here, Hitler's protege showed the fuhre himself,

in extraordinary propaganda films, including Triumph Of The Will.

One of Germany's most creative new wave of film directors, Dennis

Gansel, director of political films, is previewing a trailer for his

latest, a thriller, The Fourth State.

For Gansel's generation, the horrors of the past must never be

forgotten and repeated. But guilt mustn't hold back younger Germans

from playing a wider role in Europe, and the world.

Is it possible, do you think, to really move on? Yes, if you speak

to people who are 17 or 18 years old, they don't feel this shame any

more, they don't feel this guilt any more. They would say, you know

World War II is so far away, as for your generation it is as maybe

World War I, for us it is a new generation, we are living in the

edge of Facebook, YouTube, don't tell us anything about

globalisation. If I talk to my own father he says we really have to

protect, it is our responsibility, the European idea. But if I speak

to my younger cousin, she's 20 right now, she's saying let them go,

it is too much money. For at least 150 years Europe has

had to come to terms with some kind of German question. The answer,

every generation or so, was usually, war.

We and the new generation of Germans face another German

question, what role for this great economy and solid democracy. When

simply paying the bills for Europe is not a sustainable answer.

It is obvious that memories and memorials are absolutely

inescapably in modern Germany, it is hardly surprising, therefore,

that the core of German foreign policy, since World War II, has

been to have no problems with the neighbours. If the consequence of

that is that German politicians sometimes have to take a back seat

when it comes to leading in Europe, most Germans seem to be content

with that. At least for now.

One of the reasons Angela Merkel is personally popular, is that she

understands perfectly the dilemma of German leadership. A woman,

conservative and cautious in a system full of checks and balances,

she's exactly the opposite of bolder German leaders who risked

and lost everything. But 80 million people in Europe's

strongest economy, and 500 million Europeans, will some day have to

come to terms with fuhre-shaft, even if nobody wants to say the "F"

word in anything less than a whisper.

We have our guests. We have Miss Merkel. No not that. I

would love to be that powerful! so sorry. How long will this role

last for Germany? This piece represented a characteristic

British misunderstanding of Germany, for us it is always mention the war,

it is always about the Nazis and Hitler. It is not what it is about.

What it is actually about, Germany, the Germans after unification said

we want to be a normal country, we want to go on making Mercedes,

machine tools, exporting them to China, being rich and free, being a

greater Switzerland. That is their problem with leadership, they don't

want the leadership role, which monetary union, the eurozone, has

forced upon them, because they are the biggest economy. Is it your

sense that the German people will grow into this leadership role

forced upon them? I think they very much do. As much as I agree with

you, in a way a typical British misunderstanding of Germany, I do

not agree that Germany cannot envisage a greater leading role. I

certainly think that Angela Merkel does envisage a role. I think, to

an extent, thatest mo of the European nations do not just --

most of the European nations will not come to see that. The fiscal

compact goes towards the direction of integrated Europe, that is a

very bold and not at all compromising vision. It is about

time that the other European countries catch up. I didn't say

Germany couldn't come into a leadership role, I said the German

public opinion, the Germans, are very reluctant to take the

leadership role. Therefore, it is a difficult task to bring Germany,

particularly when as the German defence minister said to me the

other day, you say leadership and you mean money. I think it is

divided. Most recently there was extremely interesting poll, about

patriotism in general. One said how proud are you about the history,

and Germans said only 25%, only one in four Germans is proud of our

history, in Britain and France so much more. But then they were asked

do you actually think that your country does everything better than

other countries, and 70% of Germans said question. Far more than in

Britain and France. I think that very much shows a change in the

opinion in Germany and with Germans nowadays. There is a growing

feeling that we, and I slightly am suspicious with that, because it is

slightly self-righteous, but in a self-righteous way, we can show the

rest of Europe what to do. everybody can be Germany, otherwise

Germany couldn't be Germany, where would German exports go. There is a

profound problem with the prescription that Germany is trying

to impose on the rest of the eurozone. That is not necessarily

the kind of leadership we want to see. I couldn't agree more, the

leadership really would come in, not in Germany showing the rest of

Europe how to be another Germany, you are absolutely right. That

cannot work and that is wrong economics. But the leadership of

the German Chancellor really would have to come in to talk to her own

people, and to explain far, far better than she has done so far,

and I think that is the one thing. It is interesting comparison to the

German unification, because Chancellor KHol, did precisely the

same thing, brilliant in foreign policy, he took on leadership there

and managed the reunification going ahead. But he totally lacked, or at

los there was a big problem in -- lost, or there was a big problem in

internal leadership. We are still suffering that, east Germans are

still pitched against west Germans. Coming from the time when Khol said

it will be fine and everybody will be better off. Seen we will have a

leader that comes neither from east or west but simply Germany, that is

going to be a different sort of person, isn't it? Absolutely. I

think Germany is growing gradually into the leadership role. It is

unfortunate it has come through the crisis of the eurozone. But Germany

will always have this problem, even if it were not for the Nazi past,

Henry Kissenger said Germany's problem is too big for Europe, too

small for the world. It is a critical size, not big enough to be

like the United States, but it is too big just to be one among others.

So German leadership will always be quite difficult. Which might not be

any more the case if you really go into that integrated Europe, that

Angela Merkel is envisaging. I have to say, in a way I dread this

vision, I think it brings with it all kinds of problems, not least

about democratic deficit. I think that is another point where really

far more leadership is required. Some breaking news, while we have

been on the air, Downing Street have made clear that David Cameron

actually bought his pasty in Liverpool, rather than Leeds.

Pasties are all over the front That's all for tonight. Until

Hello, we are going to see some changes with our weather for the

weekend. But for Thursday, think more of the same. A chilly start

and plenty of sunshine. There will be more cloud across western

Scotland, the north coast of Northern Ireland, and perhaps

developing around the Irish Sea coast. But overall, northern

England, again another sparkling day, temperatures inland reaching

21 degrees. Further south we could hit 22 or 23. Hazy sunshine in the

Midland and southern counties, more of a breeze across parts of

Cornwall. Breeze from the north or North West means the coasts of

Wales will be a little bit cooler, the south coast could again see 21

or 22 Celsius. Lots of sunshine here, as there will be across most

of Northern Ireland, but we will see a change on the north coast, a

cooler day here with much more cloud. The same goes for the

western most fringes of Scotland, even a spot or two of the drizzle.

For much of the central belt, much of the north-east will be fine and

sunny. Increasing amounts of cloud on north western areas. As a result

temperatures won't be anything like as high. In the south, temperatures

could be a little bit low on Friday, but essentially another fine day,

with more fringe sun hien to be had. That area of -- spring sunshine to