Browse content similar to 29/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Forget the pumps, worry about the reactors. Is the real crisis that | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
the lights are in danger of going out? | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
Has Britain got an energy strategy, as the nuclear option unwinds, is | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
time running out. It is disappointing, I won't | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
pretend otherwise, there is momentum behind nuclear new build | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
in the UK. Will it be the Government, consumer or environment | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
that ends up paying, we ask the experts. | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
We are already back in recession, says the OECD, should the | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
Government be more worried about that than petrol cans and pasties. | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
The three Musketeers were on the train to ask if an elected mayor | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
would make a difference. Of all the cities Birmingham looks most likely | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
to vote to get a mayor, they will get more powers if they do so, | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
which powers. Should the UK add plea bargains to their armoury in | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
the fight against terrorism. We have been speaking to the head of | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
the FBI. The more I'm in the business I believe that sources and | :01:08. | :01:18. | |
wires are essential to address terrorism. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Good evening, at the petrol pump there is panic, at home higher | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
bills. In the North Sea a leaking gas rig, and now plans for a they | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
generation of nuclear power station lie in tatters, two companies have | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
pulled out. The Government as attempts to reduce carbon emissions, | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
while restructuring or energy consumption are looking for | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
strained and contradictory already. Can you keep everyone happy and | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
keep the lights on, or will someone pay a heavy price. | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
In energy economics it is known as the trilemma, it is one of the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
thorniest issues facing the Government, how to secure security | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
of our energy supply, at a price that supports the economy, without | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
damaging our global environment. The elusive solution that provides | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
a mixed energy supply, and reduced demand, that will keep Britannia | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
afloat, without alienating the consumers, who have to pay for it | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
all, through their bills. Hopes of a stable energy policy | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
took a hit today, as two of the big six energy giants, pulled out of a | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
joint venture to build new nuclear reactors in the UK, here in North | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
Wales and Gloucestershire. The man who was Business Secretary under | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
Gordon Brown, and who now works as a spokesman for the nuclear energy | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
industry, conceded it wasn't a good day for nuclear power. It is | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
obviously disappointing news, that both these companies have made the | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
decision, on purely commercial grounds, and I understand and | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
respect that, we do have two consortia still actively pursuing | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
nuclear new build plans in the UK. That is tremenduously important and | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
will be important for the UK going forward. Now we have to find, | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
hopefully, a buyer for this particular consortia, the Horizon | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
Project, so the plans in North Wales go ahead. It is disappointing, | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
I will clearly not pretend otherwise. There is momentum behind | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
nuclear new build in the UK. The Government is committed to ensuring | :03:19. | :03:28. | |
that is maintained. So are we. For sale, then, the chance to build | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
two nuclear tour plants. Any takers? | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
Or is gas the answer? In his budget last week, George Osborne delighted | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
the industry with incentives that might mean a new dash for gas. | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
Gas is cheap, and has much less carbon than coal, and will be the | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
largest single source of electricity in the coming years. My | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
right honourable friend, the Energy Secretary, will set out our new gas | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
generation strategy in the autumn. This week's gas leak on the he will | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
began platform in the North Sea, is a stark reminer, as Britain taps | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
ever more marginal energy reserves it gets harder and riskier, | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
firefighting ships were on the scene today amid fears of an | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
explosion. On shore, there is much excitement | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
about shale gas, but they are still waiting for the decision from | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
Government on whether extraction, by hydraulic fracturing, or | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
fracking, can restart, after it caused two earthquakes near | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Blackpool. Here in a London hotel today, more evidence of the | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
environmental part of that trilemma. Just this week the Government | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
delayed a decision, that has already taken four years to debate, | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
mandatory reporting, by business, of carbon emissions. Sustainability | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
analysts, who have rated the carbon foo footprint of scores of FTSE 250 | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
companies, say that delay is already damaging Britain's | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
competitiveness. Businesses will be reluctant to invest for the future, | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
to invest in new technology, to invest in sort of operational | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
efficiencies that are required, to see how they might transition to | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
the low-carbon economy. They will be less likely to invest in | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
research and development, and develop any products and services | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
for the future. And therefore, potentially, not be as competitive | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
as some of our other countries could be in this particular space. | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
With a new question mark over any nuclear Rennaissance in the UK, and | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
safety and environmental risks linked with any renewed dash for | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
gas, Britain's cleaner energy companies reckon they have spotted | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
a chance. Six of Britain's leading wind energy providers are launching | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
a fightback, an ad campaign that argues wind power should play a | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
larger part in Britain's future energy supply. They say that unless | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
renewables play a bigger role, then the rush we are seeing for this | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
kind of energy, petrol at the pump, will be echoed elsewhere in the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
system. With growing numbers of consumers desperate to get hold of | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
gas and electricity that simply isn't on-line when they want it. | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
Renewables are important, for our diverse tee, and for providing jobs | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
for the next ten years. Renewables will lead to lower cost of energy | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
for the UK consumer, because gas price also carry on increasing. | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
rests on the shoulders of this generation to find a way through | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
the energy trilemma, successfully juggling the economy, energy | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
security, and the environment. Or risk handing the next generation an | :06:37. | :06:47. | |
:06:47. | :06:48. | ||
energy system that doesn't deliver. We have Peter Lilley, the co- | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
founder of the campaign Plain Stupid, and Tom Burke, who has | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
advised three environment secretaries. Thank you for coming | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
If we look, first of all, at the nuclear pull-out, does it leave | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
Britain's energy strategy in crisis? It leaves the policy in | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
crisis but doesn't leave Britain in crisis, because the policy, to a | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
large extent, was based on a complete mistake, that we were | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
running out of generational capacity, and we needed nuclear to | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
fill that gap. Reality is we are closing down gas-fired power | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
stations at the moment because there is not enough demand for them. | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
So Britain is not in bad position, but the policy is in a complete | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
mess. You mean we are fine without the nuclear power stations? | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
don't need nuclear power station, even if you were very optimistic | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
and started building a new nuclear power station some time next year, | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
you would be in the middle of the next decade before generating any | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
electricity from it. It was always a mistaken policy. | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
Do you think that's right? Do you think the whole idea that we put | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
all our energise into the new nuclear and that was a complete | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
mistake? Theoretically the new existing nuclear power stations | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
will be decommissioned, they may be extend, but they have decommission | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
dates. Quite a lot of coal-fired stations will be illegal under | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
European Union rules. Unless we will use less electricity we will | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
need more xasty. The cheapest way is more gas, which produces half as | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
much carbon as coal and oil. The only way you can meet carbon | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
commitments, if you think it is important to reduce or eliminate | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
carbon emissions and producing electricity that is nuclear, is the | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
way to go. You say "if" we think it is important? You don't? I don't | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
think it is nearly as important people do, I don't know the science, | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
but I trained in physics, but the economics built up on the back of | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
the carbon fears I don't go along with. We are back to fossil fuels? | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
The fear is we are rushing towards a very gas-dependant future. We | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
will end up with a huge amount of our electricity and heating coming | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
from gas. Gas is hugely expensive, household energy bills went up by | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
�175 on average last year. Almost all of that driven by gas. It is | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
highly polluting, and most imported. It seems madness we would go down | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
that route when we could make renewable energy the cornerstone of | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
our energy strategy like Germany has. Renewables are way more | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
expensive than gas? Not true. this country at this stage? Gas is | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
the main reason why bills have gone up. And gas is hugely. That is a | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
different point. Gas and fossil fuels have gone up a lot, that is | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
the main reason bills have gone up. But if we were to switch to wind | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
and sol la, then our bills would be much, much -- solar, then our bills | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
would be much, much higher. That is not true. Why the need to subsidise | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
them? Let's be clear of nuclear subsidies. You have to remember how | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
bad this decision is for the Fukushima clear industry. What has | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
been said, is even -- the nuclear industry is. It was said even with | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
the subsidies it wasn't going to be economically viable. Let's clear up | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
the fossil fuels versus renewables, this is key. Where would consumers | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
get a cheaper deal going forward? Exactly, that is why Peter is wrong | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
to say it is the only option. The key thing for consumers is to | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
separate global energy prices and bills. The way to do that driving | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
energy efficiency forward by demand reduction and running the energy | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
system more efficiently, focusing on driving bills down. We have | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
exactly the wrong priority in the current proposed reform of | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
electricity markets, which will try to increase supply expensively, | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
however you do it, instead of thinking how you do it. The fact | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
Tom avoided answering the question gives the game away, renewables are | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
far more expensive than fossil fuels. Do you think people will | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
have to change the way they live? doubt very much, I think we are | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
moving towards a situation where the price of gas may come down, we | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
will switch to more gas production, that will happen to reduce the | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
level of carbon emissions, it will reduce the costs. If we find we | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
have large reserves of shale gas, as they have in the states. | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
have conceded the main reason why bills have gone up is the price of | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
gas. Why would you want to become more dependant on expensive, | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
imported gas. It is less expensive than renewables, and there is a | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
prospect, that we have large reserves of shale gas, which in the | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
states is halving the price of gas. Exxon disagree, British Gas | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
disagree, Deutsche Bank disagree, they all say shale gas is unlikely | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
to bring down costs for consumers. We have seen it bring down costs. | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Your analysis depended on what you call more efficiencies, which, | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
reading between the lines, means people using less energy, or | :11:52. | :12:00. | |
insulating the loft? Do more energy efficiency and make better use of | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
your generating capacity. households or a country? As a | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
country. Not just as households, but businesses as well. We will use | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
renewables, we are legally committed to generating 35% of our | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
electricity from renewables. We are going to use gas, I have no problem | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
with us using gas. Frankly, the Chancellor disagrees with both | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
these guys, we saw it in the package, that gas is cheap. I don't | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
know quite where they think it is such an expensive option. What is | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
so frustrating s the Government have been bending over backwards to | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
try to make nuclear work, offering all sorts of hidden supsidies, now | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
the nuclear dream is falling apart, and all the time they could have | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
been investing in renewable energy like other countries, this is a | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
blooming global he industry, we are falling behind and not xoting with | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
these countries, because the Government -- competing with these | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
countries because the Government has put all their eggs in nuclear | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
or gas. We have gone for two of the worst options as opposed to the | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
obvious middle one? The idea you can run a modern economy on wind | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
that blows sometimes and then not, and sun that goes in at night. | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
Germany does it? It is reining back on its subsidies and it is only a | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
small share. This summer the German Government is expecting to get 40% | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
on some days of its total. On some days, what about the others. Let me | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
finish. Sorry. 40% of its electricity some days from PVC | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
polar alone. In nuclear capacity we lose 24% of it to unplanned outages, | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
it is just as intermittant as solar. Even in Germany the sun doesn't | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
shine at night. It is very important. I'm saying that is | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
proving a point, which is you can't rely on it? He's not proving a | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
point. The point is we have a grid that can manage losing 24% of its | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
electricity, nuclear, without any problems, because you manage all | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
the sources of energy on a grid are intermittant. I don't think any of | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
us realise how steeply household bills will rise with gas. The | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
Government stuck out a press release on Saturday before the | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
budget, saying gas power plants could say at the current carbon | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
levels to 2045, that is under the radar, that will be a huge cost. | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
don't get the cost you are making. Why should gas be a huge cost? | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
Because gas bills are going up, all the bills are going up? If you | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
replace an expensive fuel by a more expensive fuel, they go up more. | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
You can't pretend that these other sources of electricity, are less | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
expensive, and still demand supsidies for them. By any | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
calculation you have to have supsidies for wind, you need twice | :15:02. | :15:09. | |
the subsidy of offshore wind. You even need subsidy for nuclear. | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
Government has lost its appetite for renewables? The Chancellor | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
doesn't seem to be very enthusiastic about renewables, the | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
point is, he's putting his eggs into the gas basket, but his own | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
independent advisers on climate change, say that for the UK to stay | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
within our carbon budgets, that all three political parties say they | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
support, then we have to have the power sector decarbonised by 2030, | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
he wants gas plants operating with high emissions until 2045. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
The Press Pack was in full cry today, sniffing out which cabinet | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
minister has or hasn't chowed down on a pasty, and which has or hasn't | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
filled a Gerry can full of petrol. But humming in the background is | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
the big story. This country's slow economic recovery. Today the | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
Organisation for Economic Co- operation and Development, the EOCD, | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
predicted we are in a double-dip recession, given their record of | :16:01. | :16:11. | |
:16:11. | :16:13. | ||
predictions, perhaps that was good news for George Osborne. Do you buy | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
this? It is a dizzying array of predictions. What is puzzling some | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
people in Government, they do take it seriously, but they are also | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
looking at other indicators published after the OECD put their | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
note out, which shows things are tipping up. The PMI is ticking up, | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
and this service sector is going up. Very technical, but lots of people | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
have been watching since January, that some of these figures going up | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
north rather than south. The chatter, we even did on this | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
programme, a film about "oh my gosh we have found some growth". There | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
is beginning to be chatter more upbeat against the general | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
background of gloom. More upbeat than before. Last September there | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
were people in the cabinet who were saying these indicators are so bad | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
we do need to look at Plan A minus. That is not true moment. If we were | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
to get, in three weeks when the real figures come out, that real | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
"R" recession, that won a massive boom for the op session, at a time | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
when this Government -- opposition, at that time when the Government is | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
not having a great time. This graph gives us a longer view of the | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
history of how quickly we have out of recessions, or economic gloom in | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
of recessions, or economic gloom in the past. We are the lower blue | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
line, I can't really make it out, maybe the viewers can a bit better, | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
this is because of the pace Which? We are deleveraging at the moment. | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
This is the particular -- with which we are deleveraging moment. | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
This is the particular debt we had going on, and undoing that debt | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
will take a long time. The economists we will set on to that | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
in a moment. Bringing you back to the political point, it would be a | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
blow to the Chancellor if it were true, but would it alter his | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
policies? No way. That was brief. You don't think it will change at | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
all? I think this is has all been about the bond markets, it if it | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
became that serious and find way to signal to the bond markets that | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
they were doing what they said all along, they would have done it last | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
September. They knew this period was going to be choppy. Mervyn King | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
said it was a zig zag year, and it is proving to be. | :18:30. | :18:39. | |
I'm off again. The British economy, is it a soft pastey roll or sausage. | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
We have Ann Pettifor, who wrote a paper on the economic consequences | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
of George Osborne and my other guest. Does it feel to you, Ann | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
Pettifor, like we are in recession? It feels as if we are bumping along | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
It feels as if we are bumping along on the bottom. I'm not sure the | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
OECD have got this quarter right, we haven't even our own number. The | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
fact is whether or not they have got it right, we are not recovering, | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
we are stagnant. The Government talks about the economy being | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
stable, it is just stagnant, and it has been since the summer of 2010. | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
Why do you think it is taking so long for us to recover? This is not | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
a typical recession. Normally when you go into recession from a boom, | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
poplg are flush with cash. We went -- people are flush with cash. We | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
:19:34. | :19:35. | ||
went in with Governments borrowing cash, including oun, individuals -- | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
own, individuals borrowing money, and when the banks go bust before a | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
recession you get a different outcome. What is historically named | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
as a depression, the debt deflation makes it hard to recover. The fact | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
is our Government is focusing on public borrowing, that really isn't | :19:54. | :20:02. | |
half as serious as our private debt. I think it was shown, it is the | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
private debt not deleveraged. We are the most indebted nation on | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
earth. The private sector is more indebted than Japan. Who is that? | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
The banks, private firms, corporations, households. In the | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
United States they have started deleveraging that, paying down or | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
foreclosing on their debts by 15%, we haven't. So people are burdened | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
by this debt, dumped on us by the banks, in the credit boom, and | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
nobody is doing anything about it. But the focus is entirely on | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
something else, which is the public sector debt. It is very ironic that | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
Gordon Brown talked about us importing this problem from America, | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
it was America where it all started, and now they have decoupled from us, | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
and they seem to be on the road to recovery and we are not. Where did | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
that come from? That is because Gordon was talking nonsense. | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
they encourage a fiscal stimulus and spent money? I think policy | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
response, America has always had a more flexible economy than us. They | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
had more willing employees and people moving more, naturally their | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
housing market is not the same as our's. It doesn't have, outside the | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
major centres in New York, land doesn't have a great value, it | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
finds a clearing level more easily than in the UK. We didn't import | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
the problem from America. This was a problem across the developed | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
world, in the west, where people basically, our debt grew, far more | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
rapidly for a large number of years, than our economic growth. It was | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
fuelled by debt. We were not unique in that, neither was America. | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
is because our finance sector is out of control, and the Government | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
is not doing anything to restrain the finance sector. The finance | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
sector is still about speculative lending. It is not about investing | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
in infrastructure, energy efficiency, investing in the things | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
that will create jobs. The whole austerity problem is completely | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
misplaced? It is misplaced because all the other sectors are crippled | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
by debt, they are not able to invest and spend, that leaves only | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
the Government. There is no growth, and actually. What would explain | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
there is no growth. Because we are not investing in the places where | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
people can actually:? If you have too much debt to begin with at | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
every level. We agree we have too much at the public and private | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
level. We don't agree with the public level. I would. What was | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
said about the bond markets is absolute rubbish, that is what the | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Government is saying. We don't depend on the bond markets for our | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
borrowing, but the Bank of England. The Government boroughs from itself | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
at a very low rate of interest. The Bank of England has financed the | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
Government's deficit since 2010. it is that easy, why don't we just | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
let the Bank of England print enough money to pay off all our | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
bebt debt and we will be free tomorrow. We are not asking the | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
Bank of England to print off money to pay debts, we are asking the | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
Bank of England to give the Government the finance it needs to | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
spend. There is a difference between spending on welfare | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
benefits and on infrastructure and investment, which nobody is doing. | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
Least of all the Government. policy terms, does what the | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
Chancellor laid out in last week he is budget, make our recovery | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
easier? I don't think it does. wouldn't call it a budget for | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
entrepeneurs? I would suggest nothing can. When you get in this | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
position there is no magic way out. In the 1930s, we didn't sit back, | :23:26. | :23:35. | |
we didn't sit on our hands and say. John MaynardCan, he's work was not | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
published until 1961. The point is, we didn't sit on our hands and | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
allow unemployment to rocket upwards and output to slump, and | :23:44. | :23:51. | |
businesses to go bust and families to go bankrupt. John Maynard Canes | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
didn't publish his work until 1936. I would like the Government to | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
spend not on welfare but infrastructure, which would create | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
the income to restore the banks to stability. | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
Today, the minister responsible for encouraging more councils to have | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
elected mayors told Newsnight that he hoped they would one day be more | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
powerful than cabinet ministers. It seems a more attractive proposition | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
than being a member of Ed Milliband's shadow cabinet, Liam | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
Byrne said he would quit to run for mayor in Birmingham, if they | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
decided they wanted one. Will public figureheads make any | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
difference, and will they have any real powers to change things. Our | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
political editor and her infag teeingable producer have been in | :24:38. | :24:48. | |
:24:48. | :25:02. | ||
You heard of the Great Train Robbery, this is the great train | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
givaway. We are travelling to Birmingham with three of localisms | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
real fans, they will explain to people what they will get if they | :25:09. | :25:19. | |
:25:19. | :25:22. | ||
vote for a mayor. Grb if they vote for a mayor. | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
The three mayoral Musketeers, are confident of the Prime Minister, | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
and the original architect of how mayors could work, Peter Clarke who | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
has nursed it through, Michael Heseltine, and Lord Donaldson, who | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
has championed mayors, and -- Lord Adonis, who has championed mayors. | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
I did what powers would they get? What would Birmingham demand if | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
they get an effective leader. Alex Salnond does not wonder what | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
Whitehall will do for me, he thumps the table and says this is what I | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
want. We need those people in cities. The City Council of | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
Birmingham has a budget of �4 billion a year, it has | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
responsibility for 400 schools and huge other responsibilities. | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
not give the powers to elected councils, why not why one | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
charasmatic figure? That is the view of councils, the situation is | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
not broken, why fix it. The situation is not fine, there are | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
not leaders who are nationally known, there is a situation of one | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
of compromise, loaders emerge from discussions behind closed doors, | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
every decision goes to endless committees. The result is Whitehall | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
has a virtual monopoly of decision making. What do you say to cities | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
who look like they are not interested in this exercise? There | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
is only one referendum in a city so far, London, huge majority in | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
favour. Who in London would turn the clock back now and not have a | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
mayor? Virtually nobody. A city that wants to get left behind, what | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
can one do about it, if they opt to be left behind, that is up to them. | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
People will make their call on whether or not they want to travel | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
with Lord Heseltine, when there are referendums in ten cities, up and | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
down the country, on the 3rd of May. The Institute for Government, asked | :27:18. | :27:28. | |
:27:28. | :27:32. | ||
YouGov if there was any appetite 37% didn't know or care. Then the | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
institute asked a question intended to bring out whether current | :27:35. | :27:45. | |
:27:45. | :27:53. | ||
council leaders were big figures in Despite such polling results, there | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
is still considerable dissent. sounds exciting to have a Boris and | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
Ken contest, but in practice, politicians are not perfect people. | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
We have checks and balances, but people don't do exactly what they | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
should do, and there needs to be a checks and balance. The idea of | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
giving somebody total power for four years wrong. | :28:13. | :28:23. | |
Sir Thomas at wood here is cet did -- credited as one of Birmingham's | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
earliest MPs. Here they hope future mayors will be more powerful than | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
cabinet ministers. Choosing one directly elected guy means it is | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
the people who chose what happens. There is one person identified, it | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
diminishes the significance of councillors, they don't like it. | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
The Mayor of Birmingham will be a more significant figure than | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
members of cabinet. It will be a hugely political post. If you have | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
somebody sitting there as Mayor of Birmingham, a household name, and | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
won an election across the second largest city in the country, you | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
are not in a position to say no to them. If the Prime Minister says | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
you may have a God case we won't give you power of the welfare | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
budget -- a good case, but we won't give you power of the welfare | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
budget? The Prime Minister has said the mayors will sit around the | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
table with him twice a year, and they can put the case. If you are | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
at that cabinet meeting and the mayors are united in demanding a | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
certain set of powers, I'm sure they will come out and talk to you | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
and other broadcasters, I think it would be very difficult for a Prime | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
Minister, unreason below, to be refusing powers that ought to be in | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
the hands of cities and mayors. Those in Government Des operate to | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
see a new platoon of mayors across the country, know this is probably | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
their last chance in a generation to pull it off. Somewhere like here, | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
Birmingham, is a poster child for the policy. People here are up for | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
it. There are places like Nottingham and Wakefield, where | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
they are slower on the uptake. If you are in Government and pushing | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
this policy, you want a number of cities to go to it so mayors become | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
the normal, not an oddity. Which new powers to wrest away from | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
Whitehall will be up to these new politicians. Central Government | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
doesn't yet know what cities like Birmingham will take back. The head | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
of the FBI has said Britain should follow the US lead and allow | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
terrorists to make plea bargains. It claims it can help for the | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
capture of other terrorists through the information they yield. Would | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
it lead people to say what they thought prosecutors wanted to hear. | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
From an ethical perspective should we choose national security over | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
natural Jews is it T Pips Taylor, who has catch -- justice. | :30:47. | :30:57. | |
:30:57. | :30:57. | ||
Peter Taylor has been in America watching the spies. | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
America's domestic Intel against service, the Federal Bureau of | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
Investigation, has a history of running human sources, often wiring | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
them to make secret recordings. more I'm in this business, the more | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
I believe sources and wires are absolutely essential to address | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
espionage, and terrorism and the like. It is adapting that long | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
history of using sources and wires to threats of today that have been | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
the challenge. The FBI has one particular tool in its armoury to | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
counter terrorism, that is used far more liberally and extensively than | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
in the UK. It is called, a plea bargain, a process in which a | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
suspect agrows to co-operate, in return for a much shorter -- agrees | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
to co-operate, in return for a much shorter sentence. The question is, | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
would the UK benefit from adopting a similar system. For us, in the | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
area of terrorism, it is an essential tool. To have a system | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
whereby there is an incentive to provide information. | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
At their headquarters, in Virginia, the FBI use role playing exercises | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
to train their special agents. We were given rare access to see how | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
they are taught to turn and recruit sources. And how to use a plea | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
bargain as an incentive. Do you want me to get information. I tell | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
you what I want to do, I want you to hang out with the same people | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
you have in the past, and do the same things you have always done. | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
But just, under direction from us. If I do what you are asking, what | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
about these charges? I can't promise you anything, but, I want | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
to help you out in every way I can. I want you to help me out in every | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
way you can. It is a give and take relationship. So you are saying, | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
you could keep me out of prison? I'm saying I'm going to try. | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
anybody finds out I'm doing this, there is a lot of people who will | :32:52. | :32:59. | |
kill me, you know that. Woods Clive Woodward trains the new recruits to | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
- Martin Woods trains the new recruits to plea bargain, but to | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
use it carefully. The best way to recruit someone is to hold | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
something over them. As was played in today's sin Nair yo. You have a | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
criminal charge over someone -- scenario, you have a criminal | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
charge over one you have leverage over them. People think | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
interrogation is finger pointing, screaming, they don't expect | :33:23. | :33:31. | |
someone to be emtheyic and sympathetic to their cause -- | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
emtheyic and sympathetic to their cause and come with honey. That is | :33:36. | :33:43. | |
what we teach in our training sessions. One of the most useful | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
people in the war against terror was a young American Muslim, who | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
would eventually agree to a plea bargain with the FBI. He openly | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
boasted before a television camera. When Americans come in with the | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
mind set to clean, my Muslim brother and sisters, I will kill | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
every American I see in Afghanistan. Mohammed Babar had helped set up a | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, attended by many | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
British would-be Jihadists, including this man, Kazi Rahman. | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
can't wait to see British soldiers on the battlefield and see them run, | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
I'm happy to kill hem. Is Two years after the interviews, Mohammed | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
Babar flew back to New York. Remarkably, even this fiercely | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
committed Jihadi, could be induced to become a human source. | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
Over six months he told the FBI everything. What he had done, who | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
he had trained with in Pakistan, and the attacks they were planning. | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
Mohammed Babar was to prove a human source that Intelligence Services | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
dream of. He was critical, he's an individual | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
who had both the access and capability to get into groups that | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
simply would not have exist without him. In return for a much shorter | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
sentence, he agreed to co-operate and reveal everything. Instead of a | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
life sentence, he served just five years, and is now at liberty. Such | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
dramatic reductions are typical in America. But, for many in Britain, | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
such deals raise the uncomfortable prospect of seeing convicted | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
terrorists walking free. The director of the FBI believes | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
MI5 and the British police stand to gain an intelligence windfall, | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
should plea bargaining operate as it does in America. He points to | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
the hundreds of convicted Islamist terrorist prisoners in British | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
jails. Whose heads are full of vital intelligence. Which they are | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
unlikely to divulge, unless they are given an incentive to do so. | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
think my brothers and sisters in the UK, don't have that same access | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
to intelligence. Do you think the UK would benefit from doing the | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
same? I do. If they had access to the information in the head of a | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
number of persons who have been arrested over a period of time, as | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
to where they went for their training, whether it be Pakistan or | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
some place else, who was involved in the training, what other plots | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
were in training. They would be a benefit to those agencies to have | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
access to those intelligences. Britain has reaped huge benefit | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
from the FBI's plea bargain with Mohammed Babar. In 2004, in an | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
operation code named Crevice, British intelligence secretly | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
filmed a suspect in a lock-up, checking the fertiliser stored for | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
a massive bomb. The suspected targets included a nightclub and a | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
shopping centre. The man under surveillance was the leader of a | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
British terrorist cell, and had trained in Pakistan alongside Babar. | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
As part of his plea bargain, Babar gave evidence in open court, | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
evidence that proved critical in the conviction of five members of | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
the cell. All were given life imprisonment. It prevented the | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
people who were being charged with that crime from claiming that they | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
were just opportunists that they were momentarily enraged by | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
something that had happened in the world. It showed how they had been | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
training and planning and preparing to mount a terrorist attack here in | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
the UK for quite a long time. Kazi Rahman was arrested for | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
attempting to buy weapons and sentenced to nine years. | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
Babar has also given evidence against terrorist suspects in the | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
USA and Canada. So, if plea bargaining can be so | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
successful, why don't we adopt the American system? In America the | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
prosecution and defence reach a formal agreement and then put it to | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
the judge, with a recommendation on sentencing. Which he can accept or | :37:54. | :38:01. | |
reject. By contrast, in the UK, the prosecution and defence can | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
encourage the judge to take account of the defendant's assistance. But | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
they can't make a specific recommendation on sentencing. So, | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
unlike in America, the accused has no clear idea of what he will get | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
in return. For many years it is something that | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
those of us involved in law enforcement, here in the UK, have | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
been wondering whether there might be some movement on. If somebody is | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
going to be asked to really compromise the rest of their life, | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
in terms of potential safety and security, there has to be something | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
in exchange. Do you think we should do plea bargaining as in America. | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
think we have to be hugely careful, there is the risk of people giving | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
false evidence in exchange for a discount on their sentence. That's | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
something we have to be vigilent about. If we could find some way of | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
offering something more in exchange than we currently have, which is | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
actually very little, then I think that could only be a good thing. | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
Tentative steps have been made towards American-style deals, with | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act of 2005. But, there is | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
still a long way to go before Britain benefits from the wealth of | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
intelligence potentially to hand. Director Muller's words will | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
probably fall on welcome ears at MI5, Scotland Yard, and the Home | :39:23. | :39:33. | |
:39:33. | :39:34. | ||
Office. You can see the first part of Peter Taylor's new series, | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
Modern Spies, on BBC on Monday night. We have the Conservative | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
Party MP, Patrick Mercer and Keith Vaz here to argue it out. They know | :39:45. | :39:53. | |
how to spend their Easter break! We are grateful chaps. You heard from | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
the head of the FBI saying the UK would benefit, if there was even | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
the remotist chance this could foil terrorist plots in the country, why | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
wouldn't you chance it? You have to be very careful, exactly as Peter | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Clarke has said, he has a lot of experience in counter terrorism | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
work. I'm not in favour of the further Americanisation of our | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
legal system. We have two different systems, our's works very well, it | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
is an issue of guilt or innocence. Once you start to make it into a | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
shade of innocence and guilt, it becomes very difficult. I think | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
that though there is examples of information being helpful, it isn't | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
a consistent set of examples. I think we need to be very careful | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
indeed. And very careful means, don't do it? Keith's making good | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
point, but all I can say, it wasn't called this or anything like as | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
formal. I saw this in Northern Ireland on endless tours over there, | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
when we managed to turn someone, when we managed to arrange | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
something with the judge, which was the exception, rather than the rule, | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
it was inevitably useful. Not necessarily because of the | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
intelligence we received, but because of the very important | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
message that it sent to his, they were all men in my case, to his | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
colleagues. So the psychological whistle-blowing really? | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
psychology of it, to the rest of the terrorist networks, here is | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
someone in police or military custody, and they are singing, they | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
are coughing. What are they saying? What do the victims say to that, | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
look at this case, a man who should have been serving a life sentence, | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
having five years and then being free, a terrorist? Absolutely. It | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
is unpalatable, I accept that, it is difficult to make people, the | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
public, understand exactly what's going on. The points that I'm | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
making are very seldom referred to. The fact that once this individual | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
is in custody, here we are, he has done a deal. What message does that | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
send to his colleagues. The message is, he has informed, he has told | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
people what is going on, he's a liability. Patrick has huge | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
experience, not just in Northern Ireland but in counter terrorism. | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
There is a but coming! The problem is s as he knows in a | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
trial like the Supergrass trial in Northern Ireland, �4 million of | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
tax-payers' money, Robert and Ian Stewart walked free, and 12 people | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
were able to go off. It is sometimes used as a threat. We had | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
interesting evidence from David Birmingham to the select committee | :42:25. | :42:32. | |
on extradition, what he said was he pleaded guilty because he knew if | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
he didn't there was a sentence of 300 years coming his way. He | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
believed the only way to deal with it was plead guilty. Prosecutors | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
are lazy too, they don't have to produce as much evidence, and there | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
is a danger of false evidence. these things have to be balanced | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
out much the points made are well thought out. Particularly with | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
Islamic fundamentalists, who are on the point of killing hundreds of | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
thousands of people. That changes things, particularly when someone | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
has been arrested very early in the commission of an alleged crime, it | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
makes it a whole different ball game. There is a hypocrisy, if you | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
look at how we have profited any way, from plea bargaining in the US, | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
Operation Cef Crevice, -- Operation Crevice, we are the happy | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
recipients. We should continue to be so. Without offering anything in | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
return? It is different judicial system, you have already started to | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
have it in serious and organised crime. You have the Goodyear | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
directions, can you go before a judge and say you will plead guilty, | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
and your sentence is known to you before the matters proceed. If you | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
have a situation where you are able to, in a sense, manipulate the | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
system, you could be giving all kinds of information out, which | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
won't necessarily be information that is going to be helpful. It is | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
such a powerful tool, many of us, you and I discussed it on the home | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
affairs commit year, several times, it is such an important thing, it | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
it is one of the conclusive things you can do to a terrorist. As I say, | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
not just the individual whom you may or may not sentence, but the | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
message it spreads to all colleagues. You have been trying to | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
get this considered for years. The Home Office is very resistant to | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
this, do you think you can change their minds? I don't think I can | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
change anything. If men and women of reason get together, and I | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
persuade people like Keith Vaz to support me, I think we can. I think | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
Patrick is moving in a direction, and the Government is moving in | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
this direction, but we need to be very, very cautious indeed. What we | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
don't want to do. What is your starting point? There are already | :44:45. | :44:53. | |
starting points, the Goodyear directives and the way we deal with | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
queens' evidence, they are all there. If we get the whole of our | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
criminal justice system overtaken by plea bargains, 87% of -- 97% of | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
convictions in America are done by plea bargains, my worry is you | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
start with counter terrorism and then to other aspects of law,s a | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
slippery slope. If anyone will convince them, Captain mers will do | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
it. Reduced in seniority, Major, if you like. Let's take you through | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
the papers, on the front of the FT, you have our top story, the setback | :45:33. | :45:43. | |
Also interesting, George Osborne to challenge Labour on spending, and | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
challenge Labour to match a detailed coalition programme of | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
cuts, stretched into the middle of next parliament. In the Times, a | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
fuel crisis made in Downing Street. The owner of a store in Bournemouth | :45:56. | :46:03. | |
carries his last six gerrycans to sell to motorists. Entrepeneurship | :46:03. | :46:13. | |
:46:13. | :46:25. | ||
That's all we have time for tonight. Today the Bluegrass musician, Earl | :46:25. | :46:32. |