Browse content similar to 19/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, does the Home Secretary know what day of the week it is? | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
As his lawyers quibble with the Government over dates, could Abu | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
Qatada avoid deportation, because of a classic Home Office cock-up? | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
The European Court of Human Rights is in the dock, there is a lot of | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
big talk from justice ministers in Brighton, who want to reform it. | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Have they achieved anything? The one question they won't be | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
asking in there, is why the country that gave the world Magna Carta, | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
and habeas corpus, needs its human rights scrutinised by a bunch of | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Latvians and moldofrpbs. The Chancellor's wildly unpopular | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
granny tax makes it through the Commons. Has he made dangerous | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
enemies? Boris's dad and Winston Churchill's granddaughter are here | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
to exchange views. Will 2012 will be day when a Saudi | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
Arabian woman represents her country in the Olympics for the | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
first time. We asked Princess Basma. Will Sagrada Familia, the | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
:01:20. | :01:21. | ||
unfishished Gaudi masterpiece be finished. We take a guided tour. | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
You couldn't make it up, apparent low the finest minds in the Home | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
Office couldn't nail down the cut- off date to Abu Qatada's appeal to | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
the human chamber in the European Court of Human Rights to appeal | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
against his deportation to Jordan. It was announced today the appeal | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
was lodged within the right time. So there will be a delay with | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
Qatada's removal from Britain. The timing was immaculate, just as | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
Keneth Clarke was chairing a euro- wide conference in brighten, | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
attempting to reduce the scope of the European Court. We went to | :02:01. | :02:09. | |
fiefrpbd out more about this mess. -- find out more about this mess. | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
# What a difference the day makes # 24 little hours | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
Did the Home Secretary get the time wrong, the time of the appeal | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
lapseing 24-hours after her lawyers had said. What we can say for | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
certain, is Abu Qatada's lawyers lodged their appeal and the | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
European Court said they received it. There was enough doubt to allow | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
the opposition to drag the Home Secretary back to the Commons to | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
answer an urgent question. Yesterday the Home Office said the | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
appeal deadline was Monday night, but the European Court officials | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
said it was Tuesday night. So on the Tuesday night deadline, while | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
Abu Qatada was appealing to European Court judges, the Home | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
Secretary, who thought the deadline was Monday night, was partying with | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
X Factor judges, when the Home Secretary is accused of not knowing | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
what day of the week it is, then confusion and chaos has turned into | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
farce. The Home Secretary, though, was | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
armed with documents that she says show a judgment becomes final | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
before three months, the appeal has to be lodged within three months. | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
Therefore, the time for the appeal lapses the day before the judgment | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
becomes final. Article 43 of the European Convention on Human Rights, | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
explains that a request for a referral to the Grand Chamber, must | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
be made within a period of three months from the date of the | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
judgment to the chamber, the letter that communicated the European | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
Court's court judgment, dated the 17th of January, confirmed this, | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
saying any request for the referral of the judgment to the Grand | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
Chamber, must be duly reasoned, and reach the registry within three | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
months of today's date. Therefore, the deadline was Monday, midnight, | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
16th of April. What was lost in all of this, was whether any of it will | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
make any difference to the UK Government's ability to deport Abu | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
Qatada. The consensus of the Grand Chamber of TV legal pundits, was, | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
it probably won't, unless, perhaps, it does. Ladies and gentlemen could | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
we begin to take our seats, if possible. At least everyone could | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
agree this was the right day to have an international legal row, | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
because there were loads of international lawyers in town, well | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
in Brighton, for a Council of Europe meeting, to discuss reform | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
of the European Court of Human Rights. | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
Because of a rather helpful leak, we're able to compare the text | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
agreed here in Brighton, with the version that the British Government | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
started off trying to secure. We can see that actually, the final | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
version, falls short in several significant respects. In Some | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
critics say it won't make much difference at all to the way the | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
European Court operates, and its ability to frustrate the will of | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
national Governments. Indeed it is not just critics saying that, the | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
President of the Court says so as well. | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
Sir Nicolas Bratza, the British judge who heads the court, told the | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
meeting, that the court was already dealing with its massive backlog, | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
160,000 cases and counting, but could not accept any erosion of its | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
independence. It is nevertheless, not surprising | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
that Governments, and indeed, public opinion, in the different | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
countries, finds some of the court's judgments difficult to | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
accept. It is, as the secretary- general has said, in the nature of | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
the protection of fundamental rights and the rule of law, that | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
sometimes minority interests have to be secured against the view of | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
the majority. Keneth Clarke told the post-meeting press conference, | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
that the UK Government had achieved all the reform it was looking for. | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
I though, reminded him of what the President had said earlier. | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
What do you make of the President of the Court's comments this | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
morning, to the effect that what's happened here really won't make | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
much difference to the way the court operates? It is a nuance, I | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
think, between myself and Nicolas Bratza, I understand judges being | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
defensive, when the Government responsible for the convention | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
start putting pressure on them to reform. He doesn't object to what | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
we are doing, he slightly implies they would have done it any way. I | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
think we would have waited years if we had just waited for the court to | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
reform itself. There is a long way to go, according to the court's | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
critics, starting with the quality of the 47 judges. Around half of | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
whom have no judicial experience before their appointment. It is, | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
though, not a bad job, �13,000 a year, tax-free, with private | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
healthcare and a full pension after five years service. The judgments, | :06:53. | :07:00. | |
though, aren't all so gold-plated. Some of them you read and you can | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
see that they have been penned by a jolly good lawyer. There are other | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
decisions you look at and wonder, frankly, in the nicest possible way, | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
what planet they are on! The court is there, say its supporters, to | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
safeguard the rights of the powerless. It is not therefore | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
surprising, that the powerful sometimes get angry. | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
Critics say no court whose judgment strays so far and so often from | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
public opinion, can ever be called legitimate for long. | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
The Home Office didn't want to provide a minister to discuss | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
today's development, so to chew over what's happened in Brighton, | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
and the continuing saga of Abu Qatada, we brought together Knowles | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
QC, a specialist in this law, and Dan Hannan, a Conservative MP. | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
This is yet another embarrassment for the Government? It is a problem | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
that is intrinsic in having a wretched court that makes up the | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
law as it goes along. And the judges who rule based on what they | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
think the law ought to say rather than what it is. It is Abu Qatada | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
and the Home Office not understanding the deadline. Senior | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
Liberal Democrats said tonight this is an Olympic-standard screw up? | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
a scrap between Theresa May and the ECHR, I know whose side I'm on, in | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
any normal reading of the thing, three months is three months, if | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
you try to use your bus pass the day after the third month it | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
wouldn't work. In a way who cares about that. I think a lot of people | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
do care about that, because the law is the law? It is not the detail | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
here that is the problem. The problem is that the elected Home | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
Secretary, answerable to the country, is not able to remove from | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
our country, somebody who entered it illegally, who shouldn't be here, | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
who has been linked to Al-Qaeda. Despite the efforts of every party | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
and united public opinion behind this, that we are, again, in the | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
hands, as you just saw in the report, these unqualified judges. | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
We are, in the meantime, having to pay both the defence and | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
prosecution, we are paying to try to deport Mr Qatada, and we are | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
paying his costs and to defend him in the meantime. Julian Knowles, | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
the fact is, that Theresa May wasn't the mistress of the detail, | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
with the fall laings of lawyers in the Home Office, who could possibly | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
have got the date right, it is a cock-up? It is a cock-up, with the | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
quality of the defence of Theresa May like we have just heard, it is | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
hardly surprising these cock-ups are made. We don't expect much from | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
Tory Home Secretarys, but even she should have got this right. The | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
rules are clear, the court doesn't make the law as they going along, | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
we understand what the time limits mean. The Government having lost | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
once against Abu Qatada's lawyer, they should have worked on the | :09:50. | :09:59. | |
basis they probably knew what they were doing. They had precedents | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
from different judges saying the date goes from the day after. The | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
Telegraph tomorrow morning is saying this could mean that Abu | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Qatada is freed, on your understanding, what is the least | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
that could happen, and what is the most that can happen? Keneth Clarke | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
is right on this. This time lit it argument won't -- limit argument | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
won't effect the substance, there will be a new deportation order to | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
be tested through the court. There is the outstanding appeal to the | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
Grand Chamber, if they accept it, it won't make any real practical | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
difference to the outcome. He won't be freed? No. But it will delay the | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
deportation at least? It won't delay, in any meaningful sense, | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
given the process will be long too, it will be measured in days or | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
weeks, it won't be substantial. Abu Qatada will still go to Jordan, | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
Dan Hannan? Yeah, but in the meantime we are paying for his | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
benefits, and both sides of the deal. Let as stand back, and ask | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
what ought to be the most basic question of all, it is almost never | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
actually raised, what specific benefits acue to the United Kingdom, | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
as the result of our adhesion to the ECHR, I'm not talking the | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
benefits to Matrix Chambers and the burgeoning human rights lawyers, | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
I'm talking about the benefits for the country as a whole. You stand | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
in the opposite corner to Keneth Clarke, Keneth Clarke is not saying | :11:22. | :11:32. | |
:11:32. | :11:35. | ||
scrap it, he's saying reform it. We were -- you are at odds, in fact, | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
with the coalition Government? reason I'm against it, is not | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
because I disagree with one particular judgment, the reason I'm | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
against it, basically political decisions, such as who is allowed | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
into the UK, such as whether prisoners should vote, should be | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
made by elected representatives who are answerable to the rest of the | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
country, so we can vote for them origins them on the basis of how | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
they have voted. Paper rights, without proper democracy are | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
worthless. The institution of East Germany had wonderful guarantees of | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
rights, but without a proper democratic system they were | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
worthless. We have this framework to stop lawlessness, but the fact | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
is the Italians disregard it when they want to. Actually, it is | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
sometimes not worth the paper it is printed on? I will come to that in | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
a minute. Can I answer the question posed, what benefit accrued to the | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
country, the celebration and upholding of the rule of law. That | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
is the benefit. If I can just finish. We don't like prisoners | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
voting? We uphold the values and the rule of law. In the convention, | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
which was a British creation, the drafting was led by David Maxwell, | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
Sir Winston Churchill was the proponent of the convention. That | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
is the benefit that accrues to the country. I don't accept the second | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
point that the French and Italians deregard it, if they do, say pity, | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
celebrate the fact that we uphold and adhere to the values we have | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
signed up to. Look at, 47 countries, and to get on, as David Grossman | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
clearly put it t you don't ever have to be a practising lawyer, | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
after five years you get your pension, �135,000 a year, and don't | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
you think that something like as important and as weighty as the | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
court should have people that are perhaps better qualified attending | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
it, rather than what seems like randoms, they don't have to be | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
judges in their own countries? is right, and that is a valid | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
criticismment we are dealing with a body which is deal -- criticism, we | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
are doling with a body which is dealing with countries that don't | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
have mature democracies, and may have only had judiciaries for 15 | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
years. As the court matures and the countries mat tue, they will have | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
experienced judges to join the court. Don't lose sight of the fact | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
that the vast majority of judge, like Sir Nicolas Bratza, who knows | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
more about this than anybody else, are of incredible distinction. | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
court is here to stay, that is the fact of the matter isn't it? That | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
is up to the United Kingdom, and the elect the representatives and | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
us. I want to come back to the idea that it is just me alleging that | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
the court is ruling on the basis of what it thinks the court ought to | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
say rather than what it says it should. Sir Nicolas Bratza made the | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
argument blatantly in an interview where he was about to retire, he | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
said we only do that when the legislation is far behind changing | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
public morals. Who is he to decide Take That, if anyone thinks there | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
is an injustice, they should stand for parliament and face the | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
electorate and that is how the system of law should work. | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
As taxes go, the granny tax, passed today in the Commons, was not one | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
of the Chancellor's most popular budget manoeuvres, it freezes the | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
threshold at which older people begin to pay tax on their incomes, | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
and it hits the middle-classes. There wasn't an Occupy-style | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
protest, there was no rioting, no broken windows, were there any | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
arrests, but there has been plenty of raw anger. But is there that | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
much in the measure for pensioners to get het up over. What is is real | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
impact of this called granny tax? personal allowance is that chunk of | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
your income that you can earn before tax kicks in, anything above | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
that you are charged 20%, 40% or 50%, depending on that. The | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
allowance for pensioners is �10,500, going up with inflation. That has | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
now been capped in the budget by the Chancellor in the budget last | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
month. And that means anything above that they will have to pay | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
some semblance of tax, 4.4 million will be worse off to the tune of | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
�84 a year, less than a million will be worse off to the tune of | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
�285 per year if they retire next year. The unaffected group, five | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
million people, depending on the state pension for their income, | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
they will be better off, because the state pension has gone up to | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
�107.45. The term granny tax is a misnomer, it is not a tax per say, | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
it is those who expected to get more income or be taxed less will | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
not be so. Pensioners are not one of the worst affected groups in the | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
recession at all? People will say they still have the TV license, the | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
winter fuel alooints, and the state pension is going -- allowance, and | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
the state pension is going up. Some will say the pensioners are the | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
least affected by the cuts since the coalition came to power. Their | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
incomes are down 1% over the last year-and-a-half or so. A couple | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
without children, their incomes are down about 2%, but the grouping | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
that it has affected most are couples with kids, and their down | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
3.5%, up to 4.7%. There will also be those who say that pensioners | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
will benefit a lot from house price rises that we have seen over the | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
last 15 years, and a lot of them retired on final salary schemes, | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
which are pretty generous, a the rest of us don't benefit from that. | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
The IFS, the Institute for Fiscal Studies had a look at comparative | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
incomes, how pensions compared to the average income in the land, | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
they found that in the 70s, pensioners earned about 30% less | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
than the average, but over the last decade-and-a-half, mostly under | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
Labour, that has shot up. Now they are closer to 90% of the median | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
income, or just by 10% less than what the average earning person | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
would earn. But, of course, if you have savings, and you depend on | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
that and you are a pensioner, you know all about it, because the bank | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
rate is at an all-time low, and pensioners are adversely affected | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
by inflation more than others, because they pay more on fuel and | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
less on iPads and clothes. With me are now, two, well, every day old | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
people, the writer Stanley Johnson, father of Boris and grandfather of | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
several is here, as well as the granddaughter of wins done | :18:15. | :18:24. | |
Churchill, Emma Soamess. Pensioners actually have got it pretty good? | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
don't think so, they are a very vulnerable demographic in our | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
society. It is not for nothing that all these benefits have accrued to | :18:32. | :18:42. | |
this age group, because they are so vulnerable. Saying they are 1% | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
better compared to 5% for a couple with children. That does not | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
account for the really much, much higher rates of inflation that | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
pensioners suffer when compared with the rest of the population. I | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
mean, if you would like some figures, over the last four years | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
it has been 14% for the general population and for people over 65 | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
it is 22%. Too much whingeing? I'm amazed | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
actually all the winging going on by the other side. -- whingeing | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
going on by the other side. Ken Livingstone's hikes have killed the | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
peingers far more. You are not campaign -- Pensioners far more. | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
You are not campaigning for your son? You introduced me as Boris's | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
father so I will go on that. What is your view, though, is your view | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
really that great power means that people really should be taking the | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
hit the same as everybody else in society? My view is your fellow | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
said some sound things. No doubt about it, we are 15 million | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
pensioners now, we are going to go up to more than that. But the | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
reality is, the reality is the things which are really hitting | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
pensioners are not this, it is not this, I don't want to make another | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
political point, I have to tell you, I mean, if, the cost of transport, | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
the cost of transport, if you keep the bus pass where it is, that's | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
going to make far for more pensioners than anything else. | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
Shall we get rid of the bus passes? We shouldn't get rid of them. | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
son believes in bus passes for older people? I'm in favour of that. | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
This is far more important for the pensioners than all this stuff, | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
look all this stuff about whether we bring the pensioners up to where | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
everybody else. That's just nonsense. | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
Pensioners, in many ways, actually, have other things that bring them | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
up, they still perhaps still have those gold-plated pensions. Their | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
savings aren't taking a lot of, or accruing a lot of interest at the | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
moment, but they are better placed in many ways. There are four | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
million pensioners who are earning or living on an income between | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
�10,000-�24,000, that is not rich. These are the people who are going | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
to be hit by the freezing of the tax allowance. This Government has | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
said they won't hit, they won't touch benefits. However, they are | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
obviously going to touch, they looks a though they are going to | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
touch. But, is Emma Soamess right, that group from �10,000-�24,000 | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
will be hit badly. I'm saying they will not be hit bad low, compared | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
with all the other things that will hit them. I'm going to make a | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
political point here, we are in a political situation. That is the | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
reality, if you don't do what Boris is doing, you are going to be in | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
massive trouble. In terms of translating into vote, do you think | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
older people are very angry at the moment? Yes, I do. I think it is | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
partly to do with the comouncation thing. Unlike everything else in -- | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
communication thing. Unlike everything else in the budget it | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
was jumped at them. It was presented in, I thought, an | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
infuriating and rather patronising way as a simplification. One man's | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
simplification is �4 a week off a small pension for somebody else. | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
That whole issue about being patronised and not having that much | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
power to fight back, is actually a proper point, well made, isn't it? | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
Do you know anything something, feel it is a red herring, I think | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
someone has picked this one up and said why don't we call it a Grandpa | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
tax, and attack the Government on this one. You think there should be | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
an equalisation of the tax allowance? As far as I'm concerned | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
about this, it is a sensible thing, but it is not the crucial issue at | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
the moment. The issue that was passed today, that eventually there | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
will be an equalisation of the tax allowance, you think it is | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
perfectly reasonable? It will happen in 2013, affecting a 13458 | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
amount of people. Your figure was �-- affecting a small amount of | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
people. You figure was �483, and Ken Livingstone will be costing | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
�1,000. That is a lot of money to many pensioners? But less than | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
�1,000. You are happy with what the Government is doing for older | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
people? The Government does what the Government does. On this last | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
point, are you happy to have, you are obviously happy to have your | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
free bus pass, are you happy to have your Winter Fuel Allowance, | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
and your free television license, do you not think there is time for | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
these things to be scrapped, if you really want equalisation? The issue | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
today is can people get a decent living out of the money they have. | :23:39. | :23:46. | |
The answer to that is, with quanative easing, and really low | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
interest rates, it is, and the actually end of the final salary | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
pension, there will be fewer and fewer people on that. Older people | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
are taking a big hit in rather a subtle way. They can't say, oh yes, | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
we have lost a benefit like child benefit, and the middle-classes, | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
because that hasn't happened. Actually they are suffering, really, | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
suffering, from high inflation, low savings rates, and terrifyingly | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
dropping annuity rates. I don't believe it. Will there be any | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
female Saudi competitors at the London Olympics this summer, Saudi | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
Arabia has never allowed a woman to compete at the games before. The | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
International Olympic Committee hope that is about to change, | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
because it breaches their rules. Even if the Saudis relent will it | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
make a difference in a country where woman are banned from | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
venturing outside their houses without a chaperone, we will hear | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
from one Saudi Princess calling for reforms in her home land. Sue Lloyd | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
Roberts has been to Saudi Arabia recently to see what it is really | :24:55. | :25:04. | |
like for women there. The lot of a Saudi woman is not a | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
happy one. Swathed in an all- covering abaya whenever she leaves | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
home, unable to drive, limitations on work or sport. Shopping is about | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
the only activity available. When I was in the king dom, a year | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
ago, women had to be served by non- Saudi men in lingerie shops. Now, | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
due to a campaign by Reem Asaad, women are, at last, allowed to | :25:30. | :25:38. | |
serve women. That is one battle won. But what about the driving? We just | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
hope it is a question at a time, we keep our fingers crossed, but we | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
are also calling for a proper transport system. Even if women | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
were allowed to drive, not all women eligible or qualified to | :25:50. | :26:00. | |
:26:00. | :26:04. | ||
cruise down the streets any way. The talk today in Saudi is about | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
women and sport. Up until today Saudi Arabia is not sending any | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
female competitors to the London Olympics. At least one Saudi woman | :26:14. | :26:22. | |
might be eligible. This is the first female Saudi athlete to | :26:22. | :26:29. | |
compete in the 2010 youth Olympics. And yet, the head of the Saudi | :26:29. | :26:39. | |
:26:39. | :26:39. | ||
Olympic Committee, President Nawaf It could be that there simply | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
aren't enough women of a standard, Reem Asaad says there's hardly any | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
sport today for her school aged daughters. Unfortunately, back in | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
the 80s, in my times, when I was a school kid, we used to play volley | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
ball, basketball, badminton, whatever, I mean so many types of | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
sports, more than I can count. Gymnastics, aerobics, everything | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
you can think about. I mean, things in Saudi Arabia were more | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
progressive for females back then in many respects. Why has it gone | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
backwards then for women? I don't know, I think the majority of the | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
traditionalists, have dominated the population. Things are not getting | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
better for women in the king dom of Saudi Arabia? They are getting | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
better in some ways, one step forward two steps back, we are | :27:36. | :27:43. | |
still fighting along the way. Then there is the social and family | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
restrictions on women. Unfair divorce laws make it | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
impossible for women to apply. After the divorce, the father gets | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
custody of children over the age of six. | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
And in Jeddah, I found women who were widowed, or had been abandoned | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
by their husbands, virtual prisoners in their own homes. | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
Unable even to attend a hospital appointment, without a male | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
guardian to accompany her. Even professional women, lawyers | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
and doctors are affected. They have to ask their male guardians for pr | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
mission to travel. This -- permission to travel. This woman is | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
working in London. As a professional woman, I have a | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
supportive husband, I want to go to a conference, why would I need to | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
get the permission of my guardian to let me to go to attend the | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
conference. If I am being trustworthy, working, independent, | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
going to hospitals, seeing patients, looking after people and saving | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
life, can't I go on my own to attend a conference without the | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
permission of my guardian. As a professional woman don't you feel | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
insults? I don't feel insults, I have been brought up in that | :28:59. | :29:07. | |
society and culture, change takes time to change. Change is painful | :29:07. | :29:16. | |
slow, Reem Asaad has achieved a small victory in the shopping place, | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
but she worries about her daughter. One of my daughters is an aspiring | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
golfer, if it takes that I have to get out of this place and get her | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
to have her golfing dream, I will. Some doubt change will come soon | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
enough, even for the next generation. | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
With me is Princess Basma, her uncle is the king of Saudi Arabia, | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
and her father was the former ruler there. | :29:43. | :29:50. | |
Princess Basma, you are calling for a fundamental change in the country. | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
Is something like the IOC coming with requests for women for the | :29:53. | :30:01. | |
Olympics, does that help you? doesn't at all. It is just another | :30:01. | :30:08. | |
slogan for another agenda, political agenda, that is calling | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
for attention about something or another, to acquire something | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
behind it. I have no idea what they have in mind, I don't know if they | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
have done their homework properly. If they want women from Saudi | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
Arabia to be represented in the Olympics, I would have thought that | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
they would have at least asked if even PE exists in our schools for | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
women. Does it offend you that kind of lack of knowledge? Definitely it | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
offends me. It offends me and it frustrates me, it is being used in | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
the media as something of a bravery, human rights, women's rights, | :30:47. | :30:55. | |
women's empowerment, and being like that. I think it is really unfair. | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
You want fundamental change, in what way, what is it you want to | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
see happen in your country? Reform of the constitution. You want a | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
constitution full stop? I want a constitution full stop, readable, | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
tangible, something which is coherent, and transparent. That we | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
can rely on and come back to, whenever we have something to | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
execute. This would be a constitution which sets out, what, | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
equal rights for women? Equal rights for women. Not just about | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
driving? It is actually nothing about driving. I mean, you know. It | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
is ridiculous, everywhere I go, everybody tells me, do women drive | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
in Saudi, I say do women have any rights in Saudi. Before you start | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
having electricity in your home, you have to be the infrastructure | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
to get that electricity. For women, whether they be women who are | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
doctors, women who work as nurses or whatever, even though they can | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
be professional women, within the home and within the law of the | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
country, they have no power whatsoever? No they don't | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
therefore, they are subject to, and often abused, divorced, left alone? | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
Definitely, its all over the news in Saudi Arabia, and the newspapers. | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
I'm not saying new knowledge. If you go back to the Saudi newspapers, | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
you would find all sorts of stories over there. Why on earth is nobody | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
looking there, and reading what's going on in the local media. | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
are speaking out, but there isn't a network of people like you is | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
there? No there is not. You want, do you want revolution or reform? | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
Reform definitely. I love my king, I love my family. I think they can | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
do a lot. There is something missing, a link, which I am | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
shedding a light on. But your family is resistant to this, the | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
males in your family are resistant to this? I wouldn't say resistant | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
as much as I would say scared. Aren't they going to be more scared | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
in way as the years go by, as we have seen in the Arab Spring and | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
the failed Iranian revolution, women coming to the fore more and | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
more, isn't there a danger if they don't listen to you and others like | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
you, that it won't be reform, it will be a revolution? I wouldn't | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
put it in that form, but I would rather put it in another form, | :33:26. | :33:35. | |
which is, it's about time that we sat at the on the same table, talk, | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
negotiate and interact, and really put our hands together and get down | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
there, and do something about the constitution, and the reform. The | :33:44. | :33:53. | |
king has ordered last year for revising the constitution, and | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
putting the laws that protect women, and he has actually ordered a big | :33:59. | :34:07. | |
sum of money for the ministry to have that done. But nothing has | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
been done. What we have now, this weekend, is the Grand Prix going | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
ahead in Bahrain. That's a disaster, in my opinion. Why is it a | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
disaster? Because, I think they are getting people endangered, just | :34:21. | :34:28. | |
because they want to get a message through that whatever it going on | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
in Bahrain is not dangerous enough for westerners or other people to | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
come to Bahrain. That's the wrong message to give. Whoever is | :34:38. | :34:48. | |
:34:48. | :34:50. | ||
responsible about this event, is definitely not doing the human tear | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
ian thing. Would you have -- Humanitarian thing. Would you like | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
to have seen it stopped? I would have really pushed to have it | :34:57. | :35:06. | |
stopped, because it is not ethical. Some say it is one of the wonders | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
of the modern world, others say someone should take a machine gun | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
to it. The Basilica of the Sagrada Familia, is a masterpiece of the | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
modernist architect, Antonio Gaudi, and a proud symbol of Catalan | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
identity. Ever since Gaudi died in 1926, with the temple incomplete, | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
there is a debate about whether or not to finish it. At last there is | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
a roof on it, and completion is pencilled for the centinary of | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
Gaudi's death. Some say the building has become a travesty of | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
his vision, and the latest should be shot to pieces. We have had a | :35:42. | :35:52. | |
:35:52. | :36:01. | ||
It is one of the wonders of the modern world, a vauntingly | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
ambitious project to the glory of God, that consumed the lives of the | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
men that worked on it. It is a source of great controversy, even | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
as the building edges towards completion. You can't help but be | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
awed by its majesty and size, and its slight kookiness. It has a | :36:23. | :36:32. | |
futuristic feel in a 70s way, it is like the first Cathedral on Mars. | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
This is the spectacular Sagrada Familia. The Basilica to the Holy | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
Family, which is forever associated with the outlandishly brilliant | :36:42. | :36:49. | |
Catalan architect, Antonio Gaudi. It is the greatest symbol of the | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
region of Catalonia. But for decades, ever since Gaudi died, | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
leaving it unfinished, in fact, it has also been a monument to | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
emegmatic genius, frozen at the at the moment when the money man who | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
could complete it, was no long -- the one man who could complete it, | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
was no longer around for it. This eastern side of the Sagrada Familia, | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
is indisputably loyal to Gaudi's vision, it was incomplete in the | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
1920s, some who come to look at his Nativity might think the old boy | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
was off his trolley, he was compulsive and fan nattically to | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
get the detail right, he had turkeys anaesthetised today see how | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
they will look up here after making -- anaesthetised today see how they | :37:40. | :37:47. | |
will look. Talking of perspective, you might think it is a given that | :37:47. | :37:54. | |
all this work by Gaudi's successors would be well appreciated, but no, | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
some say the building would have been better left unfinished. It is | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
a queer piece that won't take the centre. It won't be a place that | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
architects will come for inspiration. Really, you don't | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
think so? No, not at all. And if they do, they are on the wrong | :38:11. | :38:21. | |
:38:21. | :38:24. | ||
track. In the window there are two very | :38:24. | :38:32. | |
important parts. One is the colour, the other is the rhythm that the | :38:32. | :38:39. | |
lead gives to the composition. Toni Villa-Grau is one of the many | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
artists that feed the insaitable appetite of Sagrada Familia for | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
fine work, in his case, leaded windows. He said Gaudi's vision | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
turned old ideas about light on their head. It is normal in the | :38:52. | :38:59. | |
Gothic time that the top of a window, it is very, it has many | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
colours, and the bottom, less colour. Because these give a | :39:06. | :39:15. | |
regular light to all of the church. But Gaudi went the contrary, he | :39:15. | :39:25. | |
:39:25. | :39:33. | ||
said the top must be without colour, the bottom, full of colour. | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
Villa-Grau's designs are realised at this workshop in Barcelona. | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
Despite the controversy over the Sagrada Familia, they are soldering | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
on regardless, as they have for generations. They have a fine | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
appreciation of the play of the Catalan light. | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
We need to set a palette of colours, to match the light it is going to | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
receive. The Sagrada Familia is an | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
architectural tour deforce, a huge tourist attraction, and a working | :40:08. | :40:18. | |
:40:18. | :40:35. | ||
While Father Lluis Bonet attends to the souls of his flock at the | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
Sagrada Familia. His brother is responsible for their physical well | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
being while they are under this roof. Let me just repeat that, this | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
roof. Bonet, chief architect here for some 30 years, and therefore | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
Gaudi's successor, has finally achieved what he failed to do, the | :40:54. | :41:01. | |
great Basilica now keeps the rain out. Anything that we see here, | :41:01. | :41:10. | |
here was nothing. Only the two facades, but Gaudi has made models, | :41:10. | :41:20. | |
:41:20. | :41:21. | ||
so it will be possible to build exactly with complete fidelity. | :41:21. | :41:29. | |
This is still true to his vision, Gaudi? This is completely Gaudi. | :41:29. | :41:36. | |
This is the old city, beautiful one, this is the edge. But David Mackay | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
begs to differ. He's a British architect based in Barcelona, who | :41:41. | :41:48. | |
helped to transform the port area when the Olympic Games came here 20 | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
years ago, he says Gaudi's heirs have got it wrong. I admire their | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
courage, they sustained there, going through decades to achieve | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
what they have done and what they think is Gaudi. But it is not Gaudi. | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
Gaudi was essentially a person concerned with structure the | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
conlums are not vertical, they lean towards -- columns, they are not | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
vertical, they lean towards things, that was not built in stone, but | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
reinforced concrete, they were designed for stone. You think it is | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
a travisty? If you are looking for Gaudi, yes. I plan to take up Mr | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
Mackay's points about singor Bonet, first he's -- Signoir Bonet, first | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
he's giving us a rare tour of the works. You want to go up? If you | :42:36. | :42:45. | |
hold my hand! We're 70ms off the ground. One | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
great central steeple still to be added, will take the full height to | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
170ms. What about the criticism that Signoir Bonet and his | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
colleagues might have been better off leaving the Basilica alone. | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
Some observers go even further. There is one critic in London who | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
says they should take a machine gun and shoot away some of the | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
sculpture and some of the new things, what do you say? I think | :43:14. | :43:23. | |
that we build something that the majority of our people like that we | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
continue to do it. He told me he enjoyed mountaineering as a young | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
man. I don't doubt it. This is not the best way. In another 30 years | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
you may have difficulty getting up these. Even though the Sagrada | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
Familia is finally habitable, so to speak, the work goes. | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
The most important -- goes on. The most recently posted deadline is | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
2026, 100 years since Gaudi's death. As long as the tourist revenue | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
comes, Bonet will keep building, or his successors will. Is there | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
something about the Sagrada Familia, it is an obsession for Gaudi and it | :44:04. | :44:11. | |
seems to be an obsession for you? It is a passion and work. Not only | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
for myself, also for the people that work, the workers. They are | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
satisfied. All the little people down there. They look little from | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
here. This extraordinary building will | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
surely grow ever more familiar to visitors, even as it becomes less | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
and less like the half finished shell left by Gaudi, its visionary | :44:34. | :44:44. | |
:44:44. | :44:45. | ||
creator. Tomorrow morning's papers, the | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
Times, all the papers have the Home Office in disarray as Abu Qatada | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
faces imminent release. This is the British judge at the enter of the | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
case said he would reconsider releasing the radical Muslim from a | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
top security jail, if it is obvious after two or three weeks that | :45:02. | :45:12. | |
:45:12. | :45:36. | ||
deportation of not imminent, he That's all from Newsnight tonight, | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
Gavin is here tomorrow, I will be here with the review show later, we | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
will discuss Glenn Close's new film, and the star-laden TV series, Smash. | :45:47. | :45:55. | |
We leave you with the news that the lepblddree drummer in The Band has | :45:55. | :46:05. | |
:46:05. | :46:38. | ||
Hello there, showers are easing off now, but after a cool and misty | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
start, a burst of sunshine will help trigger the showers again | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
tomorrow, they will develop through the morning, quite extensive in the | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
afternoon, particularly for the eastern side of the UK. Now I think | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
Hampshire, maybe even West Sussex should see the showers turning | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
fewer in the afternoon, elsewhere in south-east England, a more | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
showers, heavy, thundery downpours, slow moving through the East | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
Midlands, up into northern England. Eastleigh breeze in Scotland. A lot | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
of cloud, the best of the sunshine will be for the west coast of | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
Scotland, here it should be that bit dryer. Not too many showers for | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
Northern Ireland, not too bad there today, spells of sunshine inbetween | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
the showers. It should turn brighter across a good part of | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
Wales, down to the Cotswolds, as we are inbetween the shower areas. It | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
means the south west of England will be wetter than it was today. | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
Here is how it is looking. There isn't much change from one | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
day to the next. Particularly chilly in northern Scotland. Heavy | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
thundery showers in Edinburgh. Those temperatures don't really | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
change from Friday to Saturday. Disappointingly cool for the time | :47:46. | :47:50. |