19/04/2012 Newsnight


19/04/2012

Stories behind the headlines with Kirsty Wark. Newsnight examines Ken Clarke's bid to reform the European Court of Human Rights, and Steve Smith looks at Gaudi's Sagrada Familia.


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Transcript


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Tonight, does the Home Secretary know what day of the week it is?

:00:12.:00:16.

As his lawyers quibble with the Government over dates, could Abu

:00:16.:00:21.

Qatada avoid deportation, because of a classic Home Office cock-up?

:00:21.:00:24.

The European Court of Human Rights is in the dock, there is a lot of

:00:24.:00:28.

big talk from justice ministers in Brighton, who want to reform it.

:00:28.:00:31.

Have they achieved anything? The one question they won't be

:00:31.:00:36.

asking in there, is why the country that gave the world Magna Carta,

:00:37.:00:41.

and habeas corpus, needs its human rights scrutinised by a bunch of

:00:41.:00:45.

Latvians and moldofrpbs. The Chancellor's wildly unpopular

:00:45.:00:49.

granny tax makes it through the Commons. Has he made dangerous

:00:49.:00:54.

enemies? Boris's dad and Winston Churchill's granddaughter are here

:00:54.:00:59.

to exchange views. Will 2012 will be day when a Saudi

:00:59.:01:03.

Arabian woman represents her country in the Olympics for the

:01:03.:01:10.

first time. We asked Princess Basma. Will Sagrada Familia, the

:01:10.:01:20.
:01:20.:01:21.

unfishished Gaudi masterpiece be finished. We take a guided tour.

:01:21.:01:26.

You couldn't make it up, apparent low the finest minds in the Home

:01:26.:01:33.

Office couldn't nail down the cut- off date to Abu Qatada's appeal to

:01:33.:01:36.

the human chamber in the European Court of Human Rights to appeal

:01:36.:01:43.

against his deportation to Jordan. It was announced today the appeal

:01:43.:01:48.

was lodged within the right time. So there will be a delay with

:01:48.:01:51.

Qatada's removal from Britain. The timing was immaculate, just as

:01:51.:01:56.

Keneth Clarke was chairing a euro- wide conference in brighten,

:01:56.:02:01.

attempting to reduce the scope of the European Court. We went to

:02:01.:02:09.

fiefrpbd out more about this mess. -- find out more about this mess.

:02:09.:02:16.

# What a difference the day makes # 24 little hours

:02:16.:02:21.

Did the Home Secretary get the time wrong, the time of the appeal

:02:21.:02:24.

lapseing 24-hours after her lawyers had said. What we can say for

:02:24.:02:30.

certain, is Abu Qatada's lawyers lodged their appeal and the

:02:30.:02:34.

European Court said they received it. There was enough doubt to allow

:02:34.:02:36.

the opposition to drag the Home Secretary back to the Commons to

:02:36.:02:39.

answer an urgent question. Yesterday the Home Office said the

:02:39.:02:42.

appeal deadline was Monday night, but the European Court officials

:02:42.:02:46.

said it was Tuesday night. So on the Tuesday night deadline, while

:02:46.:02:50.

Abu Qatada was appealing to European Court judges, the Home

:02:50.:02:54.

Secretary, who thought the deadline was Monday night, was partying with

:02:54.:02:59.

X Factor judges, when the Home Secretary is accused of not knowing

:02:59.:03:05.

what day of the week it is, then confusion and chaos has turned into

:03:05.:03:08.

farce. The Home Secretary, though, was

:03:08.:03:12.

armed with documents that she says show a judgment becomes final

:03:12.:03:17.

before three months, the appeal has to be lodged within three months.

:03:17.:03:22.

Therefore, the time for the appeal lapses the day before the judgment

:03:22.:03:26.

becomes final. Article 43 of the European Convention on Human Rights,

:03:26.:03:30.

explains that a request for a referral to the Grand Chamber, must

:03:30.:03:33.

be made within a period of three months from the date of the

:03:33.:03:36.

judgment to the chamber, the letter that communicated the European

:03:36.:03:40.

Court's court judgment, dated the 17th of January, confirmed this,

:03:40.:03:43.

saying any request for the referral of the judgment to the Grand

:03:43.:03:48.

Chamber, must be duly reasoned, and reach the registry within three

:03:48.:03:52.

months of today's date. Therefore, the deadline was Monday, midnight,

:03:52.:03:56.

16th of April. What was lost in all of this, was whether any of it will

:03:56.:04:02.

make any difference to the UK Government's ability to deport Abu

:04:02.:04:07.

Qatada. The consensus of the Grand Chamber of TV legal pundits, was,

:04:07.:04:12.

it probably won't, unless, perhaps, it does. Ladies and gentlemen could

:04:12.:04:17.

we begin to take our seats, if possible. At least everyone could

:04:17.:04:21.

agree this was the right day to have an international legal row,

:04:21.:04:25.

because there were loads of international lawyers in town, well

:04:25.:04:28.

in Brighton, for a Council of Europe meeting, to discuss reform

:04:28.:04:31.

of the European Court of Human Rights.

:04:31.:04:36.

Because of a rather helpful leak, we're able to compare the text

:04:36.:04:40.

agreed here in Brighton, with the version that the British Government

:04:40.:04:47.

started off trying to secure. We can see that actually, the final

:04:47.:04:53.

version, falls short in several significant respects. In Some

:04:53.:04:56.

critics say it won't make much difference at all to the way the

:04:57.:05:00.

European Court operates, and its ability to frustrate the will of

:05:00.:05:03.

national Governments. Indeed it is not just critics saying that, the

:05:03.:05:07.

President of the Court says so as well.

:05:07.:05:10.

Sir Nicolas Bratza, the British judge who heads the court, told the

:05:10.:05:16.

meeting, that the court was already dealing with its massive backlog,

:05:16.:05:20.

160,000 cases and counting, but could not accept any erosion of its

:05:20.:05:25.

independence. It is nevertheless, not surprising

:05:25.:05:28.

that Governments, and indeed, public opinion, in the different

:05:28.:05:32.

countries, finds some of the court's judgments difficult to

:05:32.:05:36.

accept. It is, as the secretary- general has said, in the nature of

:05:37.:05:41.

the protection of fundamental rights and the rule of law, that

:05:41.:05:45.

sometimes minority interests have to be secured against the view of

:05:45.:05:49.

the majority. Keneth Clarke told the post-meeting press conference,

:05:49.:05:52.

that the UK Government had achieved all the reform it was looking for.

:05:52.:05:57.

I though, reminded him of what the President had said earlier.

:05:57.:06:00.

What do you make of the President of the Court's comments this

:06:00.:06:03.

morning, to the effect that what's happened here really won't make

:06:03.:06:08.

much difference to the way the court operates? It is a nuance, I

:06:08.:06:12.

think, between myself and Nicolas Bratza, I understand judges being

:06:12.:06:18.

defensive, when the Government responsible for the convention

:06:18.:06:23.

start putting pressure on them to reform. He doesn't object to what

:06:23.:06:26.

we are doing, he slightly implies they would have done it any way. I

:06:26.:06:32.

think we would have waited years if we had just waited for the court to

:06:32.:06:35.

reform itself. There is a long way to go, according to the court's

:06:35.:06:40.

critics, starting with the quality of the 47 judges. Around half of

:06:40.:06:44.

whom have no judicial experience before their appointment. It is,

:06:44.:06:50.

though, not a bad job, �13,000 a year, tax-free, with private

:06:50.:06:53.

healthcare and a full pension after five years service. The judgments,

:06:53.:07:00.

though, aren't all so gold-plated. Some of them you read and you can

:07:00.:07:04.

see that they have been penned by a jolly good lawyer. There are other

:07:04.:07:09.

decisions you look at and wonder, frankly, in the nicest possible way,

:07:09.:07:15.

what planet they are on! The court is there, say its supporters, to

:07:15.:07:19.

safeguard the rights of the powerless. It is not therefore

:07:19.:07:24.

surprising, that the powerful sometimes get angry.

:07:24.:07:27.

Critics say no court whose judgment strays so far and so often from

:07:27.:07:32.

public opinion, can ever be called legitimate for long.

:07:32.:07:36.

The Home Office didn't want to provide a minister to discuss

:07:36.:07:40.

today's development, so to chew over what's happened in Brighton,

:07:40.:07:46.

and the continuing saga of Abu Qatada, we brought together Knowles

:07:46.:07:52.

QC, a specialist in this law, and Dan Hannan, a Conservative MP.

:07:52.:07:57.

This is yet another embarrassment for the Government? It is a problem

:07:57.:08:00.

that is intrinsic in having a wretched court that makes up the

:08:00.:08:05.

law as it goes along. And the judges who rule based on what they

:08:05.:08:08.

think the law ought to say rather than what it is. It is Abu Qatada

:08:08.:08:11.

and the Home Office not understanding the deadline. Senior

:08:11.:08:16.

Liberal Democrats said tonight this is an Olympic-standard screw up?

:08:16.:08:21.

a scrap between Theresa May and the ECHR, I know whose side I'm on, in

:08:21.:08:24.

any normal reading of the thing, three months is three months, if

:08:24.:08:29.

you try to use your bus pass the day after the third month it

:08:29.:08:33.

wouldn't work. In a way who cares about that. I think a lot of people

:08:33.:08:37.

do care about that, because the law is the law? It is not the detail

:08:37.:08:40.

here that is the problem. The problem is that the elected Home

:08:40.:08:44.

Secretary, answerable to the country, is not able to remove from

:08:44.:08:48.

our country, somebody who entered it illegally, who shouldn't be here,

:08:48.:08:53.

who has been linked to Al-Qaeda. Despite the efforts of every party

:08:53.:08:55.

and united public opinion behind this, that we are, again, in the

:08:56.:09:00.

hands, as you just saw in the report, these unqualified judges.

:09:00.:09:03.

We are, in the meantime, having to pay both the defence and

:09:03.:09:07.

prosecution, we are paying to try to deport Mr Qatada, and we are

:09:07.:09:11.

paying his costs and to defend him in the meantime. Julian Knowles,

:09:11.:09:16.

the fact is, that Theresa May wasn't the mistress of the detail,

:09:16.:09:22.

with the fall laings of lawyers in the Home Office, who could possibly

:09:22.:09:27.

have got the date right, it is a cock-up? It is a cock-up, with the

:09:27.:09:30.

quality of the defence of Theresa May like we have just heard, it is

:09:30.:09:34.

hardly surprising these cock-ups are made. We don't expect much from

:09:34.:09:38.

Tory Home Secretarys, but even she should have got this right. The

:09:38.:09:42.

rules are clear, the court doesn't make the law as they going along,

:09:42.:09:47.

we understand what the time limits mean. The Government having lost

:09:47.:09:50.

once against Abu Qatada's lawyer, they should have worked on the

:09:50.:09:59.

basis they probably knew what they were doing. They had precedents

:09:59.:10:04.

from different judges saying the date goes from the day after. The

:10:04.:10:08.

Telegraph tomorrow morning is saying this could mean that Abu

:10:08.:10:11.

Qatada is freed, on your understanding, what is the least

:10:11.:10:14.

that could happen, and what is the most that can happen? Keneth Clarke

:10:14.:10:21.

is right on this. This time lit it argument won't -- limit argument

:10:21.:10:24.

won't effect the substance, there will be a new deportation order to

:10:24.:10:27.

be tested through the court. There is the outstanding appeal to the

:10:27.:10:30.

Grand Chamber, if they accept it, it won't make any real practical

:10:30.:10:34.

difference to the outcome. He won't be freed? No. But it will delay the

:10:34.:10:39.

deportation at least? It won't delay, in any meaningful sense,

:10:39.:10:42.

given the process will be long too, it will be measured in days or

:10:42.:10:47.

weeks, it won't be substantial. Abu Qatada will still go to Jordan,

:10:47.:10:52.

Dan Hannan? Yeah, but in the meantime we are paying for his

:10:52.:10:56.

benefits, and both sides of the deal. Let as stand back, and ask

:10:56.:11:00.

what ought to be the most basic question of all, it is almost never

:11:00.:11:04.

actually raised, what specific benefits acue to the United Kingdom,

:11:04.:11:10.

as the result of our adhesion to the ECHR, I'm not talking the

:11:10.:11:13.

benefits to Matrix Chambers and the burgeoning human rights lawyers,

:11:13.:11:17.

I'm talking about the benefits for the country as a whole. You stand

:11:17.:11:22.

in the opposite corner to Keneth Clarke, Keneth Clarke is not saying

:11:22.:11:32.
:11:32.:11:35.

scrap it, he's saying reform it. We were -- you are at odds, in fact,

:11:35.:11:41.

with the coalition Government? reason I'm against it, is not

:11:41.:11:45.

because I disagree with one particular judgment, the reason I'm

:11:45.:11:48.

against it, basically political decisions, such as who is allowed

:11:48.:11:52.

into the UK, such as whether prisoners should vote, should be

:11:52.:11:55.

made by elected representatives who are answerable to the rest of the

:11:55.:11:59.

country, so we can vote for them origins them on the basis of how

:11:59.:12:06.

they have voted. Paper rights, without proper democracy are

:12:06.:12:09.

worthless. The institution of East Germany had wonderful guarantees of

:12:09.:12:13.

rights, but without a proper democratic system they were

:12:13.:12:17.

worthless. We have this framework to stop lawlessness, but the fact

:12:17.:12:21.

is the Italians disregard it when they want to. Actually, it is

:12:21.:12:25.

sometimes not worth the paper it is printed on? I will come to that in

:12:25.:12:31.

a minute. Can I answer the question posed, what benefit accrued to the

:12:31.:12:34.

country, the celebration and upholding of the rule of law. That

:12:34.:12:41.

is the benefit. If I can just finish. We don't like prisoners

:12:41.:12:46.

voting? We uphold the values and the rule of law. In the convention,

:12:46.:12:51.

which was a British creation, the drafting was led by David Maxwell,

:12:51.:12:54.

Sir Winston Churchill was the proponent of the convention. That

:12:54.:12:59.

is the benefit that accrues to the country. I don't accept the second

:12:59.:13:04.

point that the French and Italians deregard it, if they do, say pity,

:13:04.:13:07.

celebrate the fact that we uphold and adhere to the values we have

:13:07.:13:13.

signed up to. Look at, 47 countries, and to get on, as David Grossman

:13:13.:13:16.

clearly put it t you don't ever have to be a practising lawyer,

:13:16.:13:21.

after five years you get your pension, �135,000 a year, and don't

:13:21.:13:25.

you think that something like as important and as weighty as the

:13:25.:13:28.

court should have people that are perhaps better qualified attending

:13:28.:13:32.

it, rather than what seems like randoms, they don't have to be

:13:32.:13:35.

judges in their own countries? is right, and that is a valid

:13:35.:13:40.

criticismment we are dealing with a body which is deal -- criticism, we

:13:40.:13:45.

are doling with a body which is dealing with countries that don't

:13:45.:13:50.

have mature democracies, and may have only had judiciaries for 15

:13:50.:13:54.

years. As the court matures and the countries mat tue, they will have

:13:54.:13:58.

experienced judges to join the court. Don't lose sight of the fact

:13:58.:14:01.

that the vast majority of judge, like Sir Nicolas Bratza, who knows

:14:01.:14:05.

more about this than anybody else, are of incredible distinction.

:14:05.:14:12.

court is here to stay, that is the fact of the matter isn't it? That

:14:12.:14:15.

is up to the United Kingdom, and the elect the representatives and

:14:15.:14:19.

us. I want to come back to the idea that it is just me alleging that

:14:19.:14:23.

the court is ruling on the basis of what it thinks the court ought to

:14:23.:14:27.

say rather than what it says it should. Sir Nicolas Bratza made the

:14:27.:14:31.

argument blatantly in an interview where he was about to retire, he

:14:31.:14:37.

said we only do that when the legislation is far behind changing

:14:37.:14:42.

public morals. Who is he to decide Take That, if anyone thinks there

:14:42.:14:46.

is an injustice, they should stand for parliament and face the

:14:46.:14:49.

electorate and that is how the system of law should work.

:14:49.:14:54.

As taxes go, the granny tax, passed today in the Commons, was not one

:14:54.:14:58.

of the Chancellor's most popular budget manoeuvres, it freezes the

:14:58.:15:01.

threshold at which older people begin to pay tax on their incomes,

:15:01.:15:05.

and it hits the middle-classes. There wasn't an Occupy-style

:15:05.:15:10.

protest, there was no rioting, no broken windows, were there any

:15:10.:15:14.

arrests, but there has been plenty of raw anger. But is there that

:15:14.:15:19.

much in the measure for pensioners to get het up over. What is is real

:15:19.:15:23.

impact of this called granny tax? personal allowance is that chunk of

:15:23.:15:27.

your income that you can earn before tax kicks in, anything above

:15:27.:15:32.

that you are charged 20%, 40% or 50%, depending on that. The

:15:32.:15:37.

allowance for pensioners is �10,500, going up with inflation. That has

:15:37.:15:41.

now been capped in the budget by the Chancellor in the budget last

:15:41.:15:44.

month. And that means anything above that they will have to pay

:15:44.:15:49.

some semblance of tax, 4.4 million will be worse off to the tune of

:15:49.:15:55.

�84 a year, less than a million will be worse off to the tune of

:15:55.:16:00.

�285 per year if they retire next year. The unaffected group, five

:16:00.:16:03.

million people, depending on the state pension for their income,

:16:03.:16:09.

they will be better off, because the state pension has gone up to

:16:09.:16:15.

�107.45. The term granny tax is a misnomer, it is not a tax per say,

:16:15.:16:21.

it is those who expected to get more income or be taxed less will

:16:21.:16:25.

not be so. Pensioners are not one of the worst affected groups in the

:16:25.:16:30.

recession at all? People will say they still have the TV license, the

:16:30.:16:34.

winter fuel alooints, and the state pension is going -- allowance, and

:16:34.:16:38.

the state pension is going up. Some will say the pensioners are the

:16:38.:16:41.

least affected by the cuts since the coalition came to power. Their

:16:41.:16:46.

incomes are down 1% over the last year-and-a-half or so. A couple

:16:46.:16:51.

without children, their incomes are down about 2%, but the grouping

:16:51.:16:56.

that it has affected most are couples with kids, and their down

:16:56.:17:00.

3.5%, up to 4.7%. There will also be those who say that pensioners

:17:00.:17:05.

will benefit a lot from house price rises that we have seen over the

:17:05.:17:09.

last 15 years, and a lot of them retired on final salary schemes,

:17:10.:17:14.

which are pretty generous, a the rest of us don't benefit from that.

:17:14.:17:18.

The IFS, the Institute for Fiscal Studies had a look at comparative

:17:18.:17:22.

incomes, how pensions compared to the average income in the land,

:17:22.:17:26.

they found that in the 70s, pensioners earned about 30% less

:17:26.:17:30.

than the average, but over the last decade-and-a-half, mostly under

:17:30.:17:35.

Labour, that has shot up. Now they are closer to 90% of the median

:17:35.:17:39.

income, or just by 10% less than what the average earning person

:17:39.:17:43.

would earn. But, of course, if you have savings, and you depend on

:17:43.:17:47.

that and you are a pensioner, you know all about it, because the bank

:17:47.:17:53.

rate is at an all-time low, and pensioners are adversely affected

:17:53.:17:57.

by inflation more than others, because they pay more on fuel and

:17:57.:18:04.

less on iPads and clothes. With me are now, two, well, every day old

:18:04.:18:09.

people, the writer Stanley Johnson, father of Boris and grandfather of

:18:09.:18:15.

several is here, as well as the granddaughter of wins done

:18:15.:18:24.

Churchill, Emma Soamess. Pensioners actually have got it pretty good?

:18:24.:18:29.

don't think so, they are a very vulnerable demographic in our

:18:29.:18:32.

society. It is not for nothing that all these benefits have accrued to

:18:32.:18:42.

this age group, because they are so vulnerable. Saying they are 1%

:18:42.:18:46.

better compared to 5% for a couple with children. That does not

:18:46.:18:50.

account for the really much, much higher rates of inflation that

:18:50.:18:53.

pensioners suffer when compared with the rest of the population. I

:18:53.:18:57.

mean, if you would like some figures, over the last four years

:18:57.:19:03.

it has been 14% for the general population and for people over 65

:19:03.:19:08.

it is 22%. Too much whingeing? I'm amazed

:19:08.:19:11.

actually all the winging going on by the other side. -- whingeing

:19:11.:19:17.

going on by the other side. Ken Livingstone's hikes have killed the

:19:17.:19:23.

peingers far more. You are not campaign -- Pensioners far more.

:19:23.:19:27.

You are not campaigning for your son? You introduced me as Boris's

:19:27.:19:33.

father so I will go on that. What is your view, though, is your view

:19:33.:19:38.

really that great power means that people really should be taking the

:19:38.:19:43.

hit the same as everybody else in society? My view is your fellow

:19:43.:19:48.

said some sound things. No doubt about it, we are 15 million

:19:48.:19:52.

pensioners now, we are going to go up to more than that. But the

:19:52.:19:56.

reality is, the reality is the things which are really hitting

:19:56.:19:59.

pensioners are not this, it is not this, I don't want to make another

:19:59.:20:04.

political point, I have to tell you, I mean, if, the cost of transport,

:20:04.:20:09.

the cost of transport, if you keep the bus pass where it is, that's

:20:09.:20:12.

going to make far for more pensioners than anything else.

:20:12.:20:17.

Shall we get rid of the bus passes? We shouldn't get rid of them.

:20:18.:20:22.

son believes in bus passes for older people? I'm in favour of that.

:20:22.:20:25.

This is far more important for the pensioners than all this stuff,

:20:25.:20:29.

look all this stuff about whether we bring the pensioners up to where

:20:29.:20:34.

everybody else. That's just nonsense.

:20:34.:20:37.

Pensioners, in many ways, actually, have other things that bring them

:20:37.:20:42.

up, they still perhaps still have those gold-plated pensions. Their

:20:42.:20:46.

savings aren't taking a lot of, or accruing a lot of interest at the

:20:46.:20:51.

moment, but they are better placed in many ways. There are four

:20:51.:20:57.

million pensioners who are earning or living on an income between

:20:58.:21:00.

�10,000-�24,000, that is not rich. These are the people who are going

:21:00.:21:05.

to be hit by the freezing of the tax allowance. This Government has

:21:05.:21:10.

said they won't hit, they won't touch benefits. However, they are

:21:10.:21:16.

obviously going to touch, they looks a though they are going to

:21:16.:21:23.

touch. But, is Emma Soamess right, that group from �10,000-�24,000

:21:24.:21:27.

will be hit badly. I'm saying they will not be hit bad low, compared

:21:27.:21:30.

with all the other things that will hit them. I'm going to make a

:21:30.:21:35.

political point here, we are in a political situation. That is the

:21:35.:21:41.

reality, if you don't do what Boris is doing, you are going to be in

:21:41.:21:44.

massive trouble. In terms of translating into vote, do you think

:21:44.:21:47.

older people are very angry at the moment? Yes, I do. I think it is

:21:47.:21:51.

partly to do with the comouncation thing. Unlike everything else in --

:21:51.:21:53.

communication thing. Unlike everything else in the budget it

:21:53.:21:58.

was jumped at them. It was presented in, I thought, an

:21:58.:22:03.

infuriating and rather patronising way as a simplification. One man's

:22:03.:22:08.

simplification is �4 a week off a small pension for somebody else.

:22:08.:22:12.

That whole issue about being patronised and not having that much

:22:12.:22:17.

power to fight back, is actually a proper point, well made, isn't it?

:22:17.:22:21.

Do you know anything something, feel it is a red herring, I think

:22:21.:22:25.

someone has picked this one up and said why don't we call it a Grandpa

:22:25.:22:29.

tax, and attack the Government on this one. You think there should be

:22:30.:22:35.

an equalisation of the tax allowance? As far as I'm concerned

:22:35.:22:39.

about this, it is a sensible thing, but it is not the crucial issue at

:22:39.:22:43.

the moment. The issue that was passed today, that eventually there

:22:43.:22:49.

will be an equalisation of the tax allowance, you think it is

:22:49.:22:52.

perfectly reasonable? It will happen in 2013, affecting a 13458

:22:52.:22:57.

amount of people. Your figure was �-- affecting a small amount of

:22:57.:23:04.

people. You figure was �483, and Ken Livingstone will be costing

:23:04.:23:09.

�1,000. That is a lot of money to many pensioners? But less than

:23:09.:23:12.

�1,000. You are happy with what the Government is doing for older

:23:12.:23:16.

people? The Government does what the Government does. On this last

:23:16.:23:20.

point, are you happy to have, you are obviously happy to have your

:23:20.:23:24.

free bus pass, are you happy to have your Winter Fuel Allowance,

:23:24.:23:29.

and your free television license, do you not think there is time for

:23:29.:23:34.

these things to be scrapped, if you really want equalisation? The issue

:23:34.:23:39.

today is can people get a decent living out of the money they have.

:23:39.:23:46.

The answer to that is, with quanative easing, and really low

:23:46.:23:51.

interest rates, it is, and the actually end of the final salary

:23:51.:23:55.

pension, there will be fewer and fewer people on that. Older people

:23:55.:24:00.

are taking a big hit in rather a subtle way. They can't say, oh yes,

:24:00.:24:05.

we have lost a benefit like child benefit, and the middle-classes,

:24:06.:24:10.

because that hasn't happened. Actually they are suffering, really,

:24:10.:24:17.

suffering, from high inflation, low savings rates, and terrifyingly

:24:17.:24:21.

dropping annuity rates. I don't believe it. Will there be any

:24:21.:24:24.

female Saudi competitors at the London Olympics this summer, Saudi

:24:25.:24:30.

Arabia has never allowed a woman to compete at the games before. The

:24:30.:24:32.

International Olympic Committee hope that is about to change,

:24:32.:24:36.

because it breaches their rules. Even if the Saudis relent will it

:24:36.:24:40.

make a difference in a country where woman are banned from

:24:40.:24:45.

venturing outside their houses without a chaperone, we will hear

:24:45.:24:51.

from one Saudi Princess calling for reforms in her home land. Sue Lloyd

:24:51.:24:55.

Roberts has been to Saudi Arabia recently to see what it is really

:24:55.:25:04.

like for women there. The lot of a Saudi woman is not a

:25:04.:25:10.

happy one. Swathed in an all- covering abaya whenever she leaves

:25:10.:25:14.

home, unable to drive, limitations on work or sport. Shopping is about

:25:14.:25:19.

the only activity available. When I was in the king dom, a year

:25:19.:25:25.

ago, women had to be served by non- Saudi men in lingerie shops. Now,

:25:25.:25:30.

due to a campaign by Reem Asaad, women are, at last, allowed to

:25:30.:25:38.

serve women. That is one battle won. But what about the driving? We just

:25:38.:25:42.

hope it is a question at a time, we keep our fingers crossed, but we

:25:42.:25:46.

are also calling for a proper transport system. Even if women

:25:46.:25:50.

were allowed to drive, not all women eligible or qualified to

:25:50.:26:00.
:26:00.:26:04.

cruise down the streets any way. The talk today in Saudi is about

:26:04.:26:09.

women and sport. Up until today Saudi Arabia is not sending any

:26:09.:26:14.

female competitors to the London Olympics. At least one Saudi woman

:26:14.:26:22.

might be eligible. This is the first female Saudi athlete to

:26:22.:26:29.

compete in the 2010 youth Olympics. And yet, the head of the Saudi

:26:29.:26:39.
:26:39.:26:39.

Olympic Committee, President Nawaf It could be that there simply

:26:39.:26:44.

aren't enough women of a standard, Reem Asaad says there's hardly any

:26:44.:26:50.

sport today for her school aged daughters. Unfortunately, back in

:26:50.:26:55.

the 80s, in my times, when I was a school kid, we used to play volley

:26:55.:27:00.

ball, basketball, badminton, whatever, I mean so many types of

:27:00.:27:04.

sports, more than I can count. Gymnastics, aerobics, everything

:27:04.:27:10.

you can think about. I mean, things in Saudi Arabia were more

:27:10.:27:14.

progressive for females back then in many respects. Why has it gone

:27:14.:27:20.

backwards then for women? I don't know, I think the majority of the

:27:20.:27:26.

traditionalists, have dominated the population. Things are not getting

:27:26.:27:31.

better for women in the king dom of Saudi Arabia? They are getting

:27:31.:27:36.

better in some ways, one step forward two steps back, we are

:27:36.:27:43.

still fighting along the way. Then there is the social and family

:27:44.:27:48.

restrictions on women. Unfair divorce laws make it

:27:48.:27:52.

impossible for women to apply. After the divorce, the father gets

:27:52.:27:54.

custody of children over the age of six.

:27:54.:27:59.

And in Jeddah, I found women who were widowed, or had been abandoned

:27:59.:28:03.

by their husbands, virtual prisoners in their own homes.

:28:03.:28:07.

Unable even to attend a hospital appointment, without a male

:28:07.:28:12.

guardian to accompany her. Even professional women, lawyers

:28:12.:28:18.

and doctors are affected. They have to ask their male guardians for pr

:28:18.:28:22.

mission to travel. This -- permission to travel. This woman is

:28:22.:28:26.

working in London. As a professional woman, I have a

:28:26.:28:29.

supportive husband, I want to go to a conference, why would I need to

:28:29.:28:34.

get the permission of my guardian to let me to go to attend the

:28:34.:28:37.

conference. If I am being trustworthy, working, independent,

:28:37.:28:44.

going to hospitals, seeing patients, looking after people and saving

:28:44.:28:50.

life, can't I go on my own to attend a conference without the

:28:50.:28:56.

permission of my guardian. As a professional woman don't you feel

:28:56.:28:59.

insults? I don't feel insults, I have been brought up in that

:28:59.:29:07.

society and culture, change takes time to change. Change is painful

:29:07.:29:16.

slow, Reem Asaad has achieved a small victory in the shopping place,

:29:17.:29:22.

but she worries about her daughter. One of my daughters is an aspiring

:29:22.:29:27.

golfer, if it takes that I have to get out of this place and get her

:29:27.:29:31.

to have her golfing dream, I will. Some doubt change will come soon

:29:31.:29:35.

enough, even for the next generation.

:29:35.:29:40.

With me is Princess Basma, her uncle is the king of Saudi Arabia,

:29:40.:29:43.

and her father was the former ruler there.

:29:43.:29:50.

Princess Basma, you are calling for a fundamental change in the country.

:29:50.:29:53.

Is something like the IOC coming with requests for women for the

:29:53.:30:01.

Olympics, does that help you? doesn't at all. It is just another

:30:01.:30:08.

slogan for another agenda, political agenda, that is calling

:30:08.:30:11.

for attention about something or another, to acquire something

:30:11.:30:15.

behind it. I have no idea what they have in mind, I don't know if they

:30:15.:30:21.

have done their homework properly. If they want women from Saudi

:30:21.:30:25.

Arabia to be represented in the Olympics, I would have thought that

:30:25.:30:32.

they would have at least asked if even PE exists in our schools for

:30:32.:30:36.

women. Does it offend you that kind of lack of knowledge? Definitely it

:30:36.:30:41.

offends me. It offends me and it frustrates me, it is being used in

:30:41.:30:47.

the media as something of a bravery, human rights, women's rights,

:30:47.:30:55.

women's empowerment, and being like that. I think it is really unfair.

:30:55.:30:58.

You want fundamental change, in what way, what is it you want to

:30:58.:31:04.

see happen in your country? Reform of the constitution. You want a

:31:04.:31:09.

constitution full stop? I want a constitution full stop, readable,

:31:09.:31:14.

tangible, something which is coherent, and transparent. That we

:31:14.:31:19.

can rely on and come back to, whenever we have something to

:31:19.:31:22.

execute. This would be a constitution which sets out, what,

:31:22.:31:26.

equal rights for women? Equal rights for women. Not just about

:31:26.:31:31.

driving? It is actually nothing about driving. I mean, you know. It

:31:31.:31:35.

is ridiculous, everywhere I go, everybody tells me, do women drive

:31:35.:31:40.

in Saudi, I say do women have any rights in Saudi. Before you start

:31:40.:31:45.

having electricity in your home, you have to be the infrastructure

:31:45.:31:50.

to get that electricity. For women, whether they be women who are

:31:50.:31:54.

doctors, women who work as nurses or whatever, even though they can

:31:54.:31:57.

be professional women, within the home and within the law of the

:31:57.:32:03.

country, they have no power whatsoever? No they don't

:32:03.:32:09.

therefore, they are subject to, and often abused, divorced, left alone?

:32:09.:32:15.

Definitely, its all over the news in Saudi Arabia, and the newspapers.

:32:15.:32:19.

I'm not saying new knowledge. If you go back to the Saudi newspapers,

:32:19.:32:25.

you would find all sorts of stories over there. Why on earth is nobody

:32:25.:32:30.

looking there, and reading what's going on in the local media.

:32:30.:32:34.

are speaking out, but there isn't a network of people like you is

:32:34.:32:38.

there? No there is not. You want, do you want revolution or reform?

:32:38.:32:44.

Reform definitely. I love my king, I love my family. I think they can

:32:44.:32:49.

do a lot. There is something missing, a link, which I am

:32:49.:32:53.

shedding a light on. But your family is resistant to this, the

:32:53.:32:57.

males in your family are resistant to this? I wouldn't say resistant

:32:57.:33:02.

as much as I would say scared. Aren't they going to be more scared

:33:02.:33:08.

in way as the years go by, as we have seen in the Arab Spring and

:33:08.:33:12.

the failed Iranian revolution, women coming to the fore more and

:33:12.:33:16.

more, isn't there a danger if they don't listen to you and others like

:33:16.:33:19.

you, that it won't be reform, it will be a revolution? I wouldn't

:33:20.:33:26.

put it in that form, but I would rather put it in another form,

:33:26.:33:35.

which is, it's about time that we sat at the on the same table, talk,

:33:35.:33:39.

negotiate and interact, and really put our hands together and get down

:33:39.:33:44.

there, and do something about the constitution, and the reform. The

:33:44.:33:53.

king has ordered last year for revising the constitution, and

:33:53.:33:59.

putting the laws that protect women, and he has actually ordered a big

:33:59.:34:07.

sum of money for the ministry to have that done. But nothing has

:34:07.:34:11.

been done. What we have now, this weekend, is the Grand Prix going

:34:11.:34:17.

ahead in Bahrain. That's a disaster, in my opinion. Why is it a

:34:17.:34:21.

disaster? Because, I think they are getting people endangered, just

:34:21.:34:28.

because they want to get a message through that whatever it going on

:34:28.:34:33.

in Bahrain is not dangerous enough for westerners or other people to

:34:33.:34:38.

come to Bahrain. That's the wrong message to give. Whoever is

:34:38.:34:48.
:34:48.:34:50.

responsible about this event, is definitely not doing the human tear

:34:50.:34:55.

ian thing. Would you have -- Humanitarian thing. Would you like

:34:55.:34:57.

to have seen it stopped? I would have really pushed to have it

:34:57.:35:06.

stopped, because it is not ethical. Some say it is one of the wonders

:35:06.:35:11.

of the modern world, others say someone should take a machine gun

:35:11.:35:17.

to it. The Basilica of the Sagrada Familia, is a masterpiece of the

:35:17.:35:21.

modernist architect, Antonio Gaudi, and a proud symbol of Catalan

:35:21.:35:25.

identity. Ever since Gaudi died in 1926, with the temple incomplete,

:35:25.:35:28.

there is a debate about whether or not to finish it. At last there is

:35:28.:35:34.

a roof on it, and completion is pencilled for the centinary of

:35:34.:35:38.

Gaudi's death. Some say the building has become a travesty of

:35:38.:35:42.

his vision, and the latest should be shot to pieces. We have had a

:35:42.:35:52.
:35:52.:36:01.

It is one of the wonders of the modern world, a vauntingly

:36:01.:36:05.

ambitious project to the glory of God, that consumed the lives of the

:36:05.:36:10.

men that worked on it. It is a source of great controversy, even

:36:10.:36:16.

as the building edges towards completion. You can't help but be

:36:16.:36:22.

awed by its majesty and size, and its slight kookiness. It has a

:36:23.:36:32.

futuristic feel in a 70s way, it is like the first Cathedral on Mars.

:36:32.:36:37.

This is the spectacular Sagrada Familia. The Basilica to the Holy

:36:37.:36:42.

Family, which is forever associated with the outlandishly brilliant

:36:42.:36:49.

Catalan architect, Antonio Gaudi. It is the greatest symbol of the

:36:49.:36:53.

region of Catalonia. But for decades, ever since Gaudi died,

:36:53.:36:59.

leaving it unfinished, in fact, it has also been a monument to

:36:59.:37:02.

emegmatic genius, frozen at the at the moment when the money man who

:37:02.:37:06.

could complete it, was no long -- the one man who could complete it,

:37:06.:37:12.

was no longer around for it. This eastern side of the Sagrada Familia,

:37:12.:37:18.

is indisputably loyal to Gaudi's vision, it was incomplete in the

:37:18.:37:24.

1920s, some who come to look at his Nativity might think the old boy

:37:24.:37:29.

was off his trolley, he was compulsive and fan nattically to

:37:29.:37:33.

get the detail right, he had turkeys anaesthetised today see how

:37:34.:37:40.

they will look up here after making -- anaesthetised today see how they

:37:40.:37:47.

will look. Talking of perspective, you might think it is a given that

:37:47.:37:54.

all this work by Gaudi's successors would be well appreciated, but no,

:37:54.:38:00.

some say the building would have been better left unfinished. It is

:38:00.:38:04.

a queer piece that won't take the centre. It won't be a place that

:38:05.:38:07.

architects will come for inspiration. Really, you don't

:38:07.:38:11.

think so? No, not at all. And if they do, they are on the wrong

:38:11.:38:21.
:38:21.:38:24.

track. In the window there are two very

:38:24.:38:32.

important parts. One is the colour, the other is the rhythm that the

:38:32.:38:39.

lead gives to the composition. Toni Villa-Grau is one of the many

:38:39.:38:43.

artists that feed the insaitable appetite of Sagrada Familia for

:38:43.:38:48.

fine work, in his case, leaded windows. He said Gaudi's vision

:38:48.:38:52.

turned old ideas about light on their head. It is normal in the

:38:52.:38:59.

Gothic time that the top of a window, it is very, it has many

:38:59.:39:06.

colours, and the bottom, less colour. Because these give a

:39:06.:39:15.

regular light to all of the church. But Gaudi went the contrary, he

:39:15.:39:25.
:39:25.:39:33.

said the top must be without colour, the bottom, full of colour.

:39:33.:39:37.

Villa-Grau's designs are realised at this workshop in Barcelona.

:39:37.:39:43.

Despite the controversy over the Sagrada Familia, they are soldering

:39:43.:39:47.

on regardless, as they have for generations. They have a fine

:39:47.:39:52.

appreciation of the play of the Catalan light.

:39:52.:39:59.

We need to set a palette of colours, to match the light it is going to

:39:59.:40:05.

receive. The Sagrada Familia is an

:40:05.:40:08.

architectural tour deforce, a huge tourist attraction, and a working

:40:08.:40:18.
:40:18.:40:35.

While Father Lluis Bonet attends to the souls of his flock at the

:40:35.:40:40.

Sagrada Familia. His brother is responsible for their physical well

:40:40.:40:45.

being while they are under this roof. Let me just repeat that, this

:40:45.:40:50.

roof. Bonet, chief architect here for some 30 years, and therefore

:40:50.:40:54.

Gaudi's successor, has finally achieved what he failed to do, the

:40:54.:41:01.

great Basilica now keeps the rain out. Anything that we see here,

:41:01.:41:10.

here was nothing. Only the two facades, but Gaudi has made models,

:41:10.:41:20.
:41:20.:41:21.

so it will be possible to build exactly with complete fidelity.

:41:21.:41:29.

This is still true to his vision, Gaudi? This is completely Gaudi.

:41:29.:41:36.

This is the old city, beautiful one, this is the edge. But David Mackay

:41:36.:41:41.

begs to differ. He's a British architect based in Barcelona, who

:41:41.:41:48.

helped to transform the port area when the Olympic Games came here 20

:41:48.:41:52.

years ago, he says Gaudi's heirs have got it wrong. I admire their

:41:52.:41:56.

courage, they sustained there, going through decades to achieve

:41:56.:42:02.

what they have done and what they think is Gaudi. But it is not Gaudi.

:42:02.:42:05.

Gaudi was essentially a person concerned with structure the

:42:05.:42:10.

conlums are not vertical, they lean towards -- columns, they are not

:42:10.:42:16.

vertical, they lean towards things, that was not built in stone, but

:42:16.:42:20.

reinforced concrete, they were designed for stone. You think it is

:42:20.:42:26.

a travisty? If you are looking for Gaudi, yes. I plan to take up Mr

:42:26.:42:32.

Mackay's points about singor Bonet, first he's -- Signoir Bonet, first

:42:32.:42:36.

he's giving us a rare tour of the works. You want to go up? If you

:42:36.:42:45.

hold my hand! We're 70ms off the ground. One

:42:45.:42:50.

great central steeple still to be added, will take the full height to

:42:50.:42:56.

170ms. What about the criticism that Signoir Bonet and his

:42:56.:43:02.

colleagues might have been better off leaving the Basilica alone.

:43:02.:43:06.

Some observers go even further. There is one critic in London who

:43:06.:43:09.

says they should take a machine gun and shoot away some of the

:43:09.:43:14.

sculpture and some of the new things, what do you say? I think

:43:14.:43:23.

that we build something that the majority of our people like that we

:43:23.:43:28.

continue to do it. He told me he enjoyed mountaineering as a young

:43:28.:43:33.

man. I don't doubt it. This is not the best way. In another 30 years

:43:33.:43:37.

you may have difficulty getting up these. Even though the Sagrada

:43:37.:43:44.

Familia is finally habitable, so to speak, the work goes.

:43:44.:43:50.

The most important -- goes on. The most recently posted deadline is

:43:50.:43:56.

2026, 100 years since Gaudi's death. As long as the tourist revenue

:43:56.:44:01.

comes, Bonet will keep building, or his successors will. Is there

:44:01.:44:04.

something about the Sagrada Familia, it is an obsession for Gaudi and it

:44:04.:44:11.

seems to be an obsession for you? It is a passion and work. Not only

:44:11.:44:17.

for myself, also for the people that work, the workers. They are

:44:17.:44:21.

satisfied. All the little people down there. They look little from

:44:21.:44:25.

here. This extraordinary building will

:44:25.:44:29.

surely grow ever more familiar to visitors, even as it becomes less

:44:29.:44:34.

and less like the half finished shell left by Gaudi, its visionary

:44:34.:44:44.
:44:44.:44:45.

creator. Tomorrow morning's papers, the

:44:45.:44:50.

Times, all the papers have the Home Office in disarray as Abu Qatada

:44:50.:44:53.

faces imminent release. This is the British judge at the enter of the

:44:53.:44:58.

case said he would reconsider releasing the radical Muslim from a

:44:58.:45:02.

top security jail, if it is obvious after two or three weeks that

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:36.

deportation of not imminent, he That's all from Newsnight tonight,

:45:37.:45:41.

Gavin is here tomorrow, I will be here with the review show later, we

:45:41.:45:47.

will discuss Glenn Close's new film, and the star-laden TV series, Smash.

:45:47.:45:55.

We leave you with the news that the lepblddree drummer in The Band has

:45:55.:46:05.
:46:05.:46:38.

Hello there, showers are easing off now, but after a cool and misty

:46:39.:46:42.

start, a burst of sunshine will help trigger the showers again

:46:42.:46:46.

tomorrow, they will develop through the morning, quite extensive in the

:46:46.:46:50.

afternoon, particularly for the eastern side of the UK. Now I think

:46:50.:46:53.

Hampshire, maybe even West Sussex should see the showers turning

:46:53.:46:59.

fewer in the afternoon, elsewhere in south-east England, a more

:46:59.:47:03.

showers, heavy, thundery downpours, slow moving through the East

:47:03.:47:08.

Midlands, up into northern England. Eastleigh breeze in Scotland. A lot

:47:08.:47:11.

of cloud, the best of the sunshine will be for the west coast of

:47:11.:47:15.

Scotland, here it should be that bit dryer. Not too many showers for

:47:15.:47:19.

Northern Ireland, not too bad there today, spells of sunshine inbetween

:47:19.:47:22.

the showers. It should turn brighter across a good part of

:47:22.:47:27.

Wales, down to the Cotswolds, as we are inbetween the shower areas. It

:47:27.:47:30.

means the south west of England will be wetter than it was today.

:47:31.:47:35.

Here is how it is looking. There isn't much change from one

:47:35.:47:40.

day to the next. Particularly chilly in northern Scotland. Heavy

:47:40.:47:42.

thundery showers in Edinburgh. Those temperatures don't really

:47:42.:47:46.

change from Friday to Saturday. Disappointingly cool for the time

:47:46.:47:50.

What next for our relationship with the ECHR?

Newsnight examines justice secretary Ken Clarke's efforts to reform the European Court of Human Rights, and Steve Smith takes a close look at Gaudi's Sagrada Familia. Kirsty Wark presents.


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